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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: syncopadence on March 16, 2015, 03:06:34 pm

Title: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: syncopadence on March 16, 2015, 03:06:34 pm
I'm still fairly new to this game, so I'd just like to know - is there a major difference between a rehydrated dry yeast versus a liquid yeast?  I don't mind putting in the extra effort, but is it worth it?  Are the differences minute, especially when talking about 5 gallon batches?
Thanks to all for your help! You've been super helpful!
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: denny on March 16, 2015, 03:16:10 pm
Yeast can be a key component of beer flavor and there is much more variety with liquid yeast than dry.  The downside of liquid yeast is that if the OG of your beer is over 1.040, you need to make a starter to build up the number of yeast cells.  It's not difficult or time consuming, but you do need to plan ahead.  The number of dry yeast strains is limited, but they contain many more cells than a vial or pack of liquid yeast, so you don't need to make a starter with it.  For more info, see mrmalty.com
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: micsager on March 16, 2015, 03:17:29 pm
I believe folks can make great beer with dry yeast.  But, you have way more selection of differing strains with liquid yeast. 

I'm a Wyeast guy personally, but only because I live close to Portland, and it's never more than a couple weeks old at my LHBS.  I bought some 1056 once and it was only 4 days old. 



Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: denny on March 16, 2015, 03:18:22 pm
I believe folks can make great beer with dry yeast.  But, you have way more selection of differing strains with liquid yeast. 

I'm a Wyeast guy personally, but only because I live close to Portland, and it's never more than a couple weeks old at my LHBS.  I bought some 1056 once and it was only 4 days old.

I've actually gotten yeast from them that was dated the day before I got it!
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: duboman on March 16, 2015, 04:38:19 pm
What Denny said, I use both. For simplicity and ease I'll use dry yeast for clean fermenting ales. For lagers, German and Belgian I'll use Wyeast packs and make starters because hose yeasts derive the true flavors of the style.

There are some dry strains now that will handle some of these but I've not used them so can't comment on how they perform
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: GolfBum on March 16, 2015, 05:44:42 pm
I use dry for my APA's and IPA's. Usually S-05. It does what I want it to and it's about half the price of liquid yeast. For any beer I want yeast character in like my belgian beers or hefe's I use liquid.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: Herminator on March 16, 2015, 08:51:30 pm
I like others use dry for IPAs and Pales and liquid with a starter for others.  US-05 is a great go-to and just recently picked up BRY-97 to try.  And I will confess....sometimes I don't even re-hydrate dry yeast....just sprinkle it in.  Easy as pie.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: cptnpenguin on March 16, 2015, 11:06:28 pm
Is it the end of the world to use liquid yeast without doing a starter? Just made a saison following recipe from my homebrew store. The guy said in most instances you'd want to either do starter or buy 2 packs of liquid yeast but for saisons you tend to get more complexities if the yeast "has to struggle a bit" and just using one vial would be good for this. I can't remember exact strain other than White Labs saison blend. Also my OG was 1.044 so I think it should be ok either way. Long story short is there merit to this?


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: euge on March 17, 2015, 05:15:42 am
It's ok to pitch multiple vials/packs as well. However, underpitching can have unintended flavor consequences even though the ensuing fermentation process appears perfectly normal.

With a 1.044 saison one vial will get the job done though two would be better. Don't really think that yeast should be "struggling" unless one knows exactly what it produces.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: theDarkSide on March 17, 2015, 06:02:18 am
Most of my beers used the same yeast and there seems to be very good dry equivalents for those yeasts (US-05, US-04 and 34/70).  All my ciders, meads and recently a hard lemonade all use dry yeast.

I always keep US-05 and Nottingham in the fridge in case a starter goes bad or I just plain forget to get it started.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: rjharper on March 17, 2015, 06:42:33 am
For a neutral yeast, espcially for American ales, you can use dry US-05 interchangeably with WLP001 or WY1056. Similarly for neutral German lagers, W-34/70 is the same strain as WLP800 and WY2001.

For European ales though (English, Belgian, German, Flemish etc) I think there's a lot more variety to be had with the range of liquid options.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 17, 2015, 08:26:38 am
I am not sold on dry yeast.  I will use it as an insurance policy, but that's the extent of my enthusiasm.  While dry yeast is an order of magnitude better then it used to be, every dry yeast strain that I have used has produced low to very low-level off-flavors that I believe can be attributed to aerobic propagation and/or fluid bed drying. 

Nothing beats a fresh well-handled liquid culture, except for maybe an even better handled culture that was propagated from slant. Remember, yeast is the most important ingredient in beer because brewers make wort, yeast cells make beer.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: denny on March 17, 2015, 09:37:43 am
Is it the end of the world to use liquid yeast without doing a starter? Just made a saison following recipe from my homebrew store. The guy said in most instances you'd want to either do starter or buy 2 packs of liquid yeast but for saisons you tend to get more complexities if the yeast "has to struggle a bit" and just using one vial would be good for this. I can't remember exact strain other than White Labs saison blend. Also my OG was 1.044 so I think it should be ok either way. Long story short is there merit to this?


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

At that gravity you can get away without a starter if the yeast is fresh.  Above that, or with older yeast, it's Russian roulette.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: pete b on March 17, 2015, 09:53:14 am
It's ok to pitch multiple vials/packs as well. However, underpitching can have unintended flavor consequences even though the ensuing fermentation process appears perfectly normal.

With a 1.044 saison one vial will get the job done though two would be better. Don't really think that yeast should be "struggling" unless one knows exactly what it produces.
Good to see you posting, Euge!
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 17, 2015, 10:18:24 pm
Dry yeasts are getting better.  Just saying.  I used Abbaye yeast for a golden strong and it was very good.  Yes I love liquid yeasts and do starters, but there are some dry yeasts that are perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: rjharper on March 18, 2015, 07:40:04 am
Dry yeasts are getting better.  Just saying.  I used Abbaye yeast for a golden strong and it was very good.  Yes I love liquid yeasts and do starters, but there are some dry yeasts that are perfectly fine.

I'd not seen many good reviews of that strain, so that's encouraging.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 18, 2015, 08:06:16 am
For a neutral yeast, espcially for American ales, you can use dry US-05 interchangeably with WLP001 or WY1056. Similarly for neutral German lagers, W-34/70 is the same strain as WLP800 and WY2001.

For European ales though (English, Belgian, German, Flemish etc) I think there's a lot more variety to be had with the range of liquid options.

The 34/70 is usually said to be the WLP-830 and Wyeast-2124. It is the most widely used lager yeast since it was the one that Ludwig Narziss taught his students at Weihenstephan brewing school.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: rjharper on March 18, 2015, 08:36:37 am
For a neutral yeast, espcially for American ales, you can use dry US-05 interchangeably with WLP001 or WY1056. Similarly for neutral German lagers, W-34/70 is the same strain as WLP800 and WY2001.

For European ales though (English, Belgian, German, Flemish etc) I think there's a lot more variety to be had with the range of liquid options.

The 34/70 is usually said to be the WLP-830 and Wyeast-2124. It is the most widely used lager yeast since it was the one that Ludwig Narziss taught his students at Weihenstephan brewing school.

I stand corrected. 34/70 is my go to lager yeast.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: morticaixavier on March 18, 2015, 08:37:43 am
For a neutral yeast, espcially for American ales, you can use dry US-05 interchangeably with WLP001 or WY1056. Similarly for neutral German lagers, W-34/70 is the same strain as WLP800 and WY2001.

For European ales though (English, Belgian, German, Flemish etc) I think there's a lot more variety to be had with the range of liquid options.

The 34/70 is usually said to be the WLP-830 and Wyeast-2124. It is the most widely used lager yeast since it was the one that Ludwig Narziss taught his students at Weihenstephan brewing school.

I wonder if that means it's particularly well suited to the Narziss ramped temp lager schedule.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 18, 2015, 08:50:03 am
For a neutral yeast, espcially for American ales, you can use dry US-05 interchangeably with WLP001 or WY1056. Similarly for neutral German lagers, W-34/70 is the same strain as WLP800 and WY2001.

For European ales though (English, Belgian, German, Flemish etc) I think there's a lot more variety to be had with the range of liquid options.

The 34/70 is usually said to be the WLP-830 and Wyeast-2124. It is the most widely used lager yeast since it was the one that Ludwig Narziss taught his students at Weihenstephan brewing school.

I wonder if that means it's particularly well suited to the Narziss ramped temp lager schedule.

That I do not know.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: Steve Ruch on March 18, 2015, 05:18:56 pm
.
34/70 is my go to lager yeast.
I really like it too, but I brewed a maibock today using S-189: a really good yeast if you can find it.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 18, 2015, 07:26:52 pm
What's interesting about W-34/70 is that it is not a strain.  It's the 70th isolate of strain number 34.  Hefebank Weihenstephan also offers W-34/78.   

http://www.hefebank-weihenstephan.de/strains.html

What's an isolate you may ask?  Well, it's a single well-isolated colony from a plate.

The yeast culture in the photo shown below is from Scottish and Newcastle's Tyne Brewery.  The well isolated round colonies in the lower right-hand quadrant of the plate are isolates because each one was formed by the offspring of single yeast cell.  Yeast cells can undergo mutation in use.  Periodic isolate selection can lead to the selection of cultures that have slightly or radically different performance characteristics.

(http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv356/tonestack/Brewing/SandNYeast_zpsc0067d33.jpg)

Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 18, 2015, 09:49:09 pm
So unless we have lab rated instruments, and do lab level isolations, we cannot know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the yeast we repitch will achieve the same results as the lab produced specimen of that yeast, right?

But as a homebrewer can we accept the clean resulting yeast of an initial pitch with a fair degree of certainty to produce a similar beer?
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: rjharper on March 18, 2015, 10:08:12 pm
What's interesting about W-34/70 is that it is not a strain.  It's the 70th isolate of strain number 34.  Hefebank Weihenstephan also offers W-34/78.   

http://www.hefebank-weihenstephan.de/strains.html

What's an isolate you may ask?  Well, it's a single well-isolated colony from a plate.

The yeast culture in the photo shown below is from Scottish and Newcastle's Tyne Brewery.  The well isolated round colonies in the lower right-hand quadrant of the plate are isolates because each one was formed by the offspring of single yeast cell.  Yeast cells can undergo mutation in use.  Periodic isolate selection can lead to the selection of cultures that have slightly or radically different performance characteristics.

(http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv356/tonestack/Brewing/SandNYeast_zpsc0067d33.jpg)

I love science :)
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: Iliff Ave on March 19, 2015, 08:19:10 am
.
34/70 is my go to lager yeast.
I really like it too, but I brewed a maibock today using S-189: a really good yeast if you can find it.

This is to be released by Fermentis in 11.5 g sachets this year...
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 19, 2015, 09:12:18 am
.
34/70 is my go to lager yeast.
I really like it too, but I brewed a maibock today using S-189: a really good yeast if you can find it.

This is to be released by Fermentis in 11.5 g sachets this year...
Mark, or anyone else, do you have background on the origin of S-189?
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 19, 2015, 09:26:35 am
So unless we have lab rated instruments, and do lab level isolations, we cannot know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the yeast we repitch will achieve the same results as the lab produced specimen of that yeast, right?

All yeast cultures drift over time.  That's why labs store important master cultures at -196C.  At that temperature, life goes into suspended animation.

I would argue that each of the BRY 96 descendents (i.e., "Chico," Wyeast 1056, WLP001, and US-05) are slightly different because they are isolates. 

Quote
But as a homebrewer can we accept the clean resulting yeast of an initial pitch with a fair degree of certainty to produce a similar beer?

In my humble opinion, home brewers should embrace drift, that is, as long as the drift is not affecting the finished product negatively.  Drift is how one develops a "house" yeast strain.  For example, there's zero doubt in my mind that the yeast strains used by Young's and Fuller's strain share a common ancestor.

Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 19, 2015, 09:30:13 am
Mark, or anyone else, do you have background on the origin of S-189?

I believe that the strain originates from the Hürlimann Brewery. 
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: denny on March 19, 2015, 09:50:52 am
Mark, or anyone else, do you have background on the origin of S-189?

I believe that the strain originates from the Hürlimann Brewery.

Yeah, that's what I've found also.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 19, 2015, 10:44:27 am
Mark, or anyone else, do you have background on the origin of S-189?

I believe that the strain originates from the Hürlimann Brewery.

Yeah, that's what I've found also.

If I ever do a 14% lager I will use this yeast.   ;)
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: rjharper on March 19, 2015, 01:00:30 pm
Mark, or anyone else, do you have background on the origin of S-189?

I believe that the strain originates from the Hürlimann Brewery.

Yeah, that's what I've found also.

If I ever do a 14% lager I will use this yeast.   ;)

Sounds like an excellent strain for Baltic Porter then
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: denny on March 19, 2015, 02:09:12 pm
If I ever do a 14% lager I will use this yeast.   ;)

:)

Although I've made some great maibock with it at a lot less than 14%!
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: Steve Ruch on March 19, 2015, 03:22:44 pm
Although I've made some great maibock with it at a lot less than 14%!

Good to hear, I did a 1.070 maibock yesterday that should come out to a little over half that.
Title: Re: Liquid vs dry yeast?
Post by: Steve Ruch on March 19, 2015, 03:24:05 pm
.
34/70 is my go to lager yeast.
I really like it too, but I brewed a maibock today using S-189: a really good yeast if you can find it.

This is to be released by Fermentis in 11.5 g sachets this year...

I'm good with that.