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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: ercousin on June 15, 2015, 04:51:52 PM

Title: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ercousin on June 15, 2015, 04:51:52 PM
I'm sure this will be contentious, but I wanted to see how others felt about this before I send my thoughts to the AHA directly.

While I support the Brewing Network and enjoy their content, it's just silly that they are allowed to be considered an AHA club towards Homebrew Club of the Year... By default they reach far more people than any other club possibly could. Assuming no changes, they pretty much have 'homebrew club of the year' locked up for eternity unless another national club starts. To me and many others, a club means a local group of homebrewers that are specific to a region or geographical area. I imagine it is demoralizing to great clubs like QUAFF and other regional groups that have worked hard to build a local scene and community, and not have a chance towards club of the year.

Also, I would have liked to see the "Final Round Club of the Year" (Gambrinus Club Award?) get equal airtime to talk on the mic at the banquet as the BN did.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: 69franx on June 15, 2015, 04:55:27 PM
From what I have seen/read, this is an ongoing issue, and not likely to end soon. I entered nothing, so my thoughts dont hold as much water, but I agree with you completely
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 15, 2015, 05:00:40 PM
Plenty of threads here and on other forums regarding this. The main argument is it allows folks that do not have access to a proper club claim a club. 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 15, 2015, 05:06:03 PM
I love The BN and believe they have contributed an insurmountable amount of information to the homebrewing community. Being my first NHC, I was under the impression the booing when they won (which we all expected) was for fun. I'm not sure what I really think about the fact they continue to win CotY, but I'm compelled to encourage the formation of perhaps a collaborative new (and huge) club that's focused solely on winning this award. It may take some time, but I don't think it's impossible, and my guess is even The BN would view it as a fun thing.

Ultimately, "we" are who makeup the BN Army (I am a member), we are this community. The fact they are now expected to win based purely on their numbers absolutely waters down the award. Hmm.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ercousin on June 15, 2015, 05:17:42 PM
I didn't boo at the banquet, but I can see why others might have.

I guess to me it's an issue of club vs community.

A club is a group of individuals from an area that meets up to share homebrew, organize competitions, participate in and organize brewing related events. There is a regional pride aspect to a club I think, it was really cool to see the clubs from St Paul MN, Austin TX, and Woodbridge NJ spar in the final round and edge each other out for that COTY (final round medals count) title.

A community focuses much less on the local aspect on more on the gathering of like minded people in one place with no geographical requirement. I would consider groups like r/homebrewing, homebrewtalk, and the Brewing Network, communities. These are groups with 100k+ members and if they all organized and rallied their members the same way the BN did no local club would ever have a chance again.

I fully understand that others may not share these definitions with me.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: sfletty on June 15, 2015, 05:19:16 PM
I have no ill will toward the BN, but they are an entirely different animal. They can field entrants in every region in the country. This is not a level playing field. No regional club can make a run at the Club of the Year award.

Yeah, when the St Paul Homebrewers club threepeated we did have Gordon Strong competing with us, but we only needed his points one year to actually win it. Also, we only had one extra guy in one extra region NOT in every region in the country.

Also, when QUAFF did 6 in a row, they did have Jamil in a second region. Again, however, only 2 regions in one state. Not the same as EVERY REGION in the country.

In my opinion Club of the Year has become a joke. The award has been cheapened.

Again, I'll repeat: No rancor toward the BN, but seriously....

So we could probably form a super Midwest club or a large anit-BN club and get some great brewers on board to take on BN, which there's been talk about doing, but what would that prove or mean? It would just be the same BS.

Enough. I'm sick of the argument about the BN enabling someone who can't join a club...blah blah blah.....there's a difference between a regionally based local club where people actually have meetings and know each other personally, and a virtual club.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: denny on June 15, 2015, 05:21:19 PM
I agree with every point Steve made.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: testingapril on June 15, 2015, 05:23:31 PM
...it allows folks that do not have access to a proper club claim a club.

As someone who's claimed BN as my club in numerous comps, this is important. I don't claim them as my club anymore, however.

The award is basically just "largest homebrew club" so if BN is discounted, why? They've done what they needed to become the largest club. Alternately, it's "club with an absurd number of NHC entries" and again, they've done a great job encouraging brewing competition and entering NHC, so why should they be discounted because they've been successful in that area. Congratulating that is a good thing, IMO.

The Radegast award is a much loftier goal for clubs to shoot for overall, IMO, but if you are looking for something competition-wise to shoot for, then the Gambrinus award is a loftier goal than 'club of the year', because Gambrinus accounts for size of the club.

Maybe this is a disagreement on the naming of the different awards? I don't think I agree that Gambrinus should be renamed 'club of the year'. Pretty much everyone considers the Ninkasi to be the top individual award, not Homebrewer of the Year right? So the name isn't strictly attached to the prestige of the award, it would seem.

I think maybe it would be better to just shift the prestige to the Gambrinus award, than try to rule out the BN artificially somehow.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: sfletty on June 15, 2015, 05:27:55 PM
I was not booing, but no it was not for fun. People don't like this.

You have to think about this for a moment to realize the level of frustration for clubs that are not nationally based. They can't compete.

Even large regional clubs can barely do so. We can't in St Paul anymore. We don't have the numbers.

Also, calling the BN a club....well....yeah, there is that aspect, but isn't it also a business? Isn't someone making money off this? Seriously? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

While the BN has provided info to people, it's not the be all and end all of brewing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 15, 2015, 05:31:35 PM
I agree with every point Steve made.

+2
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: denny on June 15, 2015, 05:35:10 PM
I was not booing, but no it was not for fun. People don't like this.

You have to think about this for a moment to realize the level of frustration for clubs that are not nationally based. They can't compete.

Even large regional clubs can barely do so. We can't in St Paul anymore. We don't have the numbers.

Also, calling the BN a club....well....yeah, there is that aspect, but isn't it also a business? Isn't someone making money off this? Seriously? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

While the BN has provided info to people, it's not the be all and end all of brewing.

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_khqAOpZqHEI/TS8Ror3F23I/AAAAAAAAEX4/sLYyZrcT2q0/s1600/applause%5B4%5D.gif)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: sfletty on June 15, 2015, 05:37:54 PM
...it allows folks that do not have access to a proper club claim a club.

The award is basically just "largest homebrew club" so if BN is discounted, why? They've done what they needed to become the largest club. Alternately, it's "club with an absurd number of NHC entries" and again, they've done a great job encouraging brewing competition and entering NHC, so why should they be discounted because they've been successful in that area. Congratulating that is a good thing, IMO.


Yeah, I guess that's what it has become, but it should NOT be that, in my opinion.

When the St Paul Homebrewers threepeated we were not even the largest club in the state of Minnesota. We set a goal to take on QUAFF. It took us 4 years, but we managed to do it with a lot of great LOCAL brewers, not a virtual alliance of people who don't really know one another beyond making dick jokes online.  :D

Why shouldn't other regional clubs be able to set that goal and go for it? Do we really have to form some huge alliance to take down BN just to prove a point? And what difference would that make?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brewday on June 15, 2015, 05:43:58 PM
...it allows folks that do not have access to a proper club claim a club.

As someone who's claimed BN as my club in numerous comps, this is important. I don't claim them as my club anymore, however.

Why is this important?  Claiming a club is not a requirement when entering competitions.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: sfletty on June 15, 2015, 05:48:18 PM
I'm sure this will be contentious, but I wanted to see how others felt about this before I send my thoughts to the AHA directly.

Also, I would have liked to see the "Final Round Club of the Year" (Gambrinus Club Award?) get equal airtime to talk on the mic at the banquet as the BN did.

Contentious or not, I think this needs to be said.

And, yes, why does Justin get to get up there and give a speech?

Either the BN is a club or a business and a sponsor.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ercousin on June 15, 2015, 05:48:47 PM
I think just giving more clout/attention to the Gambrinus winner would be better IMO. Whichever club wins the most second round medals should be the overall club of the year. Why bother giving a second round award to the club with most first round medals?


This year the WHALES club from Woodbridge NJ won, are they considered a huge club?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: denny on June 15, 2015, 05:50:51 PM

Contentious or not, I think this needs to be said.

Any, yes, why does Justin get to get up there and give a speech?

Either the BN is a club or a business and a sponsor.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: testingapril on June 15, 2015, 05:52:26 PM

The award is basically just "largest homebrew club" so if BN is discounted, why? They've done what they needed to become the largest club. Alternately, it's "club with an absurd number of NHC entries" and again, they've done a great job encouraging brewing competition and entering NHC, so why should they be discounted because they've been successful in that area. Congratulating that is a good thing, IMO.


Yeah, I guess that's what it has become, but it should NOT be that, in my opinion.

... beyond making dick jokes online


You may have a point here, because the rules of NHC entry have changed. Back when you could enter as many beers as you could get an entry for, a smaller club could out compete a larger club with quality. That is not the case anymore. With a 4 entry limit, I suspect a sheer number of entrants is the #1 factor for winning this award.

That said, a huge competition focused 'local' club could just become the new "unbeatable" BN for that award if they were discounted artificially. I don't know. I feel like overall, this is just a lot of complaining with little to no actual solution aside from the Gambrinus award, which already exists.

The dick jokes, misogyny, and general baseness is one of the reasons I don't list them as my club anymore.

...it allows folks that do not have access to a proper club claim a club.

As someone who's claimed BN as my club in numerous comps, this is important. I don't claim them as my club anymore, however.

Why is this important?  Claiming a club is not a requirement when entering competitions.

It gives a sense of teamwork, community, and being a part of something that folks out in rural areas (like myself) can't get as part of a proper club.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Chino Brews on June 15, 2015, 05:55:21 PM
I understand what Steve, Denny, and others mean, but I'm not sure there is an easy answer to fix this.

The award has definitely been cheapened if the outcome is a foregone conclusion, especially when members of each physical club are working hard to have a good showing, and their efforts are swept away by a tide of entrants claiming an affiliation with hundreds of other people they have never met before.

Personally, I'd like to see the AHA require clubs to register with the AHA and pay a nominal per-member annual registration fee (something $5 per member, minimum $200). Only registered members of registered clubs would be able to claim affiliation for the club of the year, and others' claims would be deleted by the software. I think this puts everyone on an equal footing, and while $5 is not enough to pose a real barrier, I suspect it might make it harder for BN to collect and pay those nickels from as far and wide as their fans range.

That being said, I hesitate to recommend anything more radical that would shrink, rather than enlarge, our hobby. I would way rather see thousands of excited homebrewers brought/kept in the hobby by BN, even if it means BN wins the club comp every year, than say bye to those folks.

For example, I would like to be in a club -- and even have several clubs of national standing in my area -- but cannot due to other commitments. Having to ability to make some claim to a community helps, and I've claimed Chop N' Brew as my "club" in smaller comps in the past.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: testingapril on June 15, 2015, 05:57:12 PM
I'm sure this will be contentious, but I wanted to see how others felt about this before I send my thoughts to the AHA directly.

Also, I would have liked to see the "Final Round Club of the Year" (Gambrinus Club Award?) get equal airtime to talk on the mic at the banquet as the BN did.

Contentious or not, I think this needs to be said.

And, yes, why does Justin get to get up there and give a speech?

Either the BN is a club or a business and a sponsor.

I didn't realize that airtime at the awards was not equal between the two awards. This is the proper corrective action IMO. Either both get a speech, or neither. Heck, if one should get a speech, it should be the Gambrinus winner because they are the higher quality club, IMO.

Quote
Either the BN is a club or a business and a sponsor.

I'm not sure I agree here. The BN club was initially opposed by Justin and the BN employees. It was registered only because a BN fan did so, and encouraged other BN fans to enter as BN club members.

TONS of homebrew clubs around the country are formed, hosted, and potentially ran by homebrew shops. Some even have the name of the shop in the title of the club. I don't see how this distinction can be made about the BN, but not HBS based clubs.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 06:03:20 PM
"I don't recognize your bulls*** club" Clay Morrow - President SAMCRO

Disclaimer: Im a Sergeant in the BN Army (only way I will ever get the title Sergeant is to pay for it). I have not yet placed in any competition. I have not been to NHC.  There are a couple tiny clubs, each an hour from my brewery, who do not meet on days that shift work schmucks like me can go to. In the brewing club world im considered unaffiliated. The BN Army allows me to feel patched in as a Nomad of the biggest club in the world.

The BN Army continuing to win the NHC COTY is amazing and Justin ought to be flush with pride. The booing I hear about, if any of it is serious, can't be directed at the BN. There's too few of them. If every BN crew member entered every comp and medaled monthly, it wouldnt be enough points to win. Maybe you think you are booing guys like us who claim BN as their club. But in reality you are booing yourself for not getting on the competition committee and change the rules. Or not having built a homebrew infotainment empire that out numbers the BN.

Final friendly reminder. They don't keep winning because they have 100,000 guys like me who can't even place in a competition. Its not about how many mediocre brewers you have. I'll bet the BN has the lowest ratio of medal winners to losers than any other club. Suppose that someone did the study and found that the BN only had 100 brewers who won medals. Thats probably more likely that the notion that they have 50,000 who each won one third place medal. So, losers really dont matter when it comes to COTY, right? If thats so, what would it matter if the BN had a million members?

In my opinion a rules change will only create a whole new set of problems. If you "fix" the regional issue, you just eliminated everyone who doesn't live near a metropolis. (If the number of members issue is true)

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 06:15:27 PM
Lets explore the idea of requiring another AHA fee to be dubbed an official club member for COTY purposes. Maybe $5 isnt enough to eliminate enough BN medal winners. No doubt they have a few disposable bucks to throw at this. $50 buck probably wouldn't stop them either. $500 might. $5000 surely would. So what does that end up looking like? Congratulations! Of the 3 clubs who had wealthy members, your club won! Good job.

By the way, tonights meal was provided by COTY. Lol
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 15, 2015, 06:15:52 PM
I think it'd be rally funny if the CotY award was sponsored by The Brewing Network.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 15, 2015, 06:19:37 PM
The boo's were very evident over the livestream feed (which the BN provides).  Someone said there was a guy so upset, he boo'd very loudly and then stormed out of the banquet hall.  Geez...get a grip pal.

I guess the only solution is send your Governing Committee members you concerns, the AHA sends out a survey, and they change the rules and exclude these paying AHA members.  I wonder if the rosters of these other clubs would pass muster if audited under these new rules.  Not saying anything negative about them, but if a guy in Nebraska wants to join Quaff (hypothetical scenario) and pays his club dues, so be it.

I listed my club as the BN back in 2011 when I won a couple 1st round and final round medals, but since have changed since joining my local club (who will never get COTY since I'm the only one who ever enters). 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 15, 2015, 06:20:20 PM
Lets explore the idea of requiring another AHA fee to be dubbed an official club member for COTY purposes. Maybe $5 isnt enough to eliminate enough BN medal winners. No doubt they have a few disposable bucks to throw at this. $50 buck probably wouldn't stop them either. $500 might. $5000 surely would. So what does that end up looking like? Congratulations! Of the 3 clubs who had wealthy members, your club won! Good job.

By the way, tonights meal was provided by COTY. Lol

Sort of like a poll tax...what a great idea. ;)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: sfletty on June 15, 2015, 06:24:52 PM

You may have a point here, because the rules of NHC entry have changed. Back when you could enter as many beers as you could get an entry for, a smaller club could out compete a larger club with quality. That is not the case anymore. With a 4 entry limit, I suspect a sheer number of entrants is the #1 factor for winning this award.

The dick jokes, misogyny, and general baseness is one of the reasons I don't list them as my club anymore.


Yeah, this is the problem. Under the no-limit, a smaller club like the St. Paul Homebrewers could brew and enter a crapload.

BN is not the same animal. They can field more people in more regions. It is NOT a level playing field. A regional club can't play the numbers game.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: sfletty on June 15, 2015, 06:30:40 PM
"I don't recognize your bulls*** club" Clay Morrow - President SAMCRO

Disclaimer: Im a Sergeant in the BN Army (only way I will ever get the title Sergeant is to pay for it). I have not yet placed in any competition. I have not been to NHC.  There are a couple tiny clubs, each an hour from my brewery, who do not meet on days that shift work schmucks like me can go to. In the brewing club world im considered unaffiliated. The BN Army allows me to feel patched in as a Nomad of the biggest club in the world.

The BN Army continuing to win the NHC COTY is amazing and Justin ought to be flush with pride. The booing I hear about, if any of it is serious, can't be directed at the BN. There's too few of them. If every BN crew member entered every comp and medaled monthly, it wouldnt be enough points to win. Maybe you think you are booing guys like us who claim BN as their club. But in reality you are booing yourself for not getting on the competition committee and change the rules. Or not having built a homebrew infotainment empire that out numbers the BN.

Final friendly reminder. They don't keep winning because they have 100,000 guys like me who can't even place in a competition. Its not about how many mediocre brewers you have. I'll bet the BN has the lowest ratio of medal winners to losers than any other club. Suppose that someone did the study and found that the BN only had 100 brewers who won medals. Thats probably more likely that the notion that they have 50,000 who each won one third place medal. So, losers really dont matter when it comes to COTY, right? If thats so, what would it matter if the BN had a million members?

In my opinion a rules change will only create a whole new set of problems. If you "fix" the regional issue, you just eliminated everyone who doesn't live near a metropolis. (If the number of members issue is true)

Dude, you don't get it.

The BN fields more entrants. They can enter and do enter in all regions all over the country.

No other club is a virtual club/business/sponsor/whatever-they-are. BN is not the same animal. No other club can play that game and win.

I'm not sure what the fix is, but it's a pretty obviously broken system right now.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jvoeltz on June 15, 2015, 06:31:16 PM
I'll bet the BN has the lowest ratio of medal winners to losers than any other club.

Haven't looked up 2015 numbers yet, but in 2014 (by my calculations, using Gambrinus scores for my math), BN (or BNA, or whatever they are) had 348 first round entries. QUAFF had ~255 first round entries in 2014 (and lost to BNA for COTY by ~6 points).

BN only had two final round medals out of 348 first round entries.

There's a reason they finish first for COTY points and last for Gambrinus.....they're accumulating first round points because they enter a metric crap ton load of entries in the first round. It's purely a numbers game.

Myself, I take great pride that in 2014 I had more final round points than BNA, and that Schoppe did the same thing this year.  :)

So, who's gonna register ASH-QUAFF-ZEALOTS-ST.PAUL as a club for next year?  8)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: sfletty on June 15, 2015, 06:34:47 PM
I'll bet the BN has the lowest ratio of medal winners to losers than any other club.

Haven't looked up 2015 numbers yet, but in 2014 (by my calculations, using Gambrinus scores for my math), BN (or BNA, or whatever they are) had 348 first round entries. QUAFF had ~255 first round entries in 2014 (and lost to BNA for COTY by ~6 points).

BN only had two final round medals out of 348 first round entries.

There's a reason they finish first for COTY points and last for Gambrinus.....they're accumulating first round points because they enter a metric crap ton load of entries in the first round. It's purely a numbers game.

Myself, I take great pride that in 2014 I had more final round points than BNA, and that Schoppe did the same thing this year.  :)

So, who's gonna register ASH-QUAFF-ZEALOTS-ST.PAUL as a club for next year?  8)

I'm in!  ;D

Maybe a club should only be allowed to enter it's home region.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 15, 2015, 06:36:43 PM
So, who's gonna register ASH-QUAFF-ZEALOTS-ST.PAUL as a club for next year?  8)

Eliminate the BN, and you might as well rename the award to this.

Congrats to you for your medals and Mark for Ninkasi!!


I'm in!  ;D

Maybe a club should only be allowed to enter it's home region.
In that case Quaff would have lost out on points too since they medaled in at least 6 regions in the first round.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Slowbrew on June 15, 2015, 06:45:31 PM
I listen to this conversation every year lately.  Honestly I can see both sides of the argument ("is it really a club if no one in it ever gets together in one location" and "it's the only way many people will ever have access to a club").  Both perspectives have valid thoughts on the situation.

Full disclosure:  I am not a member of a club and never have been.  Not because there are no clubs available to me (I know of at least two in my area)  but because joining a club is just not my style.  People generally describe me as "doesn't play well with other" and I'm not bothered by that.   ::)

If a national club cannot be beaten due to shear numbers would it make sense to ask BN to split the national club into regional units?  Separate clubs but part of the same whole?  How many regional club divisions would it take to make it worth the member's time and everyone else happy?  Three?  Four?  Six?  Maybe divisions like: 

Northwest
Southwest
Rockies
Mid-west (Upper and lower?)
Northeast
Southeast

Just a thought experiment for me.  I'll never win a medal (I don't compete).  I'll never be in a club that gets "robbed year after year" by a national online club because I'm not a club joiner.  I don't have any skin in this game.  It just seems to me that getting upset (either side) isn't going to find a workable solution (and booing seems a little childish, sorry).

Other crazy "solutions" like this come to mind but regionalizing things is the most workable one. 

One dumb one:  The one big club could be split into subs by making each club have the same number of users based on the first letter each members last name.  When you join the national site you are assigned a "club" based on which one needs another person with a last name that starts with "D".  What ever works to create balance.

To me, it isn't helping to complain about it.  Look for a real solution.

Paul
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 06:46:29 PM
Ok, in all seriousness now. If there were a club near me and I had the time and ability to participate, if they had a goal of winning COTY I would not be interested in joining. If there was a club of brewers who lived to brew, share, and talk beer, and who didn't allow ear humping people about their day job, I would join that. It doesn't exist.

Like I said, I've not been to NHC yet, but if a crowd allows booing thats not in fun, im not missing a thing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 15, 2015, 06:46:56 PM
Club identification is voluntary and optional so creating a rule that only certain clubs can be identified in the NHC is exclusionary, arbitrary and sure to cast off people. If the BN gets cut out because it lacks a geographic identity then that's going to cut out lots of people like Jim along with people who live in areas with active clubs but for choose not to be involved with the local club and lack the desire or resources to start a new club. If the standard requires local participation in a club then what about people who join a local club and never attend meetings? Is it acceptable to join the Austin Zealots when I live hours away and will not attend many meetings or must all entries be crosschecked against club meeting attendance? What if those people wrote in AHA? What if they wrote in the name of a local club but never joined?

If the line is drawn over a lack of geographic identity then what stops other clubs from later complaining that the large metropolitan clubs should be excluded because they span too large of an area? After all, if you cut out BN then you're just talking about a battle between several large regional clubs. There's no way a club in Independence, Kansas competes with QUAFF.

Wherever one thinks the line should be drawn and for whatever reason supports that division it is sure to cast division much like what exists now by permitting BN as a club. Shifting dissatisfaction from one group to another accomplishes little. Perhaps time would be better spent looking at why people feel drawn to claiming BN and how to bring those people into the fold of physical groups. For every Jim who lives in the wilderness there is probably a half dozen brewers who have easy access to a local club but either opt not to participate or do not know it is out there.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 15, 2015, 06:49:48 PM
I agree with every point that Steve makes.

I think the way to fix this is to write your AHA GC and tell them what you think. Don't just do it now, do it all year long.

Here is a solution I've been proposing throughout the last year: make the CotY award similar to the GABF Brewery of the Year award. There are small, medium, and large breweries of the year. Say it is split into those categories... then your smaller clubs are only competing against themselves. The BNs and the QUAFFs of the world are only competing again themselves as well. There. Everyone's happy and everyone has at least a chance of winning. This system here does not work for the types of clubs we have anymore. It is VERY demotivating to know that you have no chance of winning ant of the big-club awards as a small or medium sized club.

What's the point of this award anyway? To motivate all of the clubs across the country to make great beer in order to become CotY? Or to have only the largest of the large compete against each other? I think the former is a much better way to look at the award. The latter is pretty boring and useless.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 07:06:50 PM
Maybe COTY should have nothing to do with brewing awards, instead its selected by the gov board based on what club has done the best job of promoting home brewing and the AHA. Crap, never mind, the BN would probably win that too.

I think its either do the size break up like Amanda suggests, regional break up, or... if you cant beat em join em.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 15, 2015, 07:28:20 PM

I agree with every point that Steve makes.

I think the way to fix this is to write your AHA GC and tell them what you think. Don't just do it now, do it all year long.

Here is a solution I've been proposing throughout the last year: make the CotY award similar to the GABF Brewery of the Year award. There are small, medium, and large breweries of the year. Say it is split into those categories... then your smaller clubs are only competing against themselves. The BNs and the QUAFFs of the world are only competing again themselves as well. There. Everyone's happy and everyone has at least a chance of winning. This system here does not work for the types of clubs we have anymore. It is VERY demotivating to know that you have no chance of winning ant of the big-club awards as a small or medium sized club.

What's the point of this award anyway? To motivate all of the clubs across the country to make great beer in order to become CotY? Or to have only the largest of the large compete against each other? I think the former is a much better way to look at the award. The latter is pretty boring and useless.
Fully agree, great points and idea.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jvoeltz on June 15, 2015, 07:30:06 PM
Maybe COTY should have nothing to do with brewing awards, instead its selected by the gov board based on what club has done the best job of promoting home brewing and the AHA. Crap, never mind, the BN would probably win that too.

Well, that's the Radegast Award.  ;)

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/community/clubs/radegast-club-of-the-year/
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: denny on June 15, 2015, 07:32:16 PM
Maybe COTY should have nothing to do with brewing awards, instead its selected by the gov board based on what club has done the best job of promoting home brewing and the AHA. Crap, never mind, the BN would probably win that too.

That's pretty much what the Radegast award is all about...and I wouldn't be so certain that BN would win it anyway.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ercousin on June 15, 2015, 07:35:16 PM
I agree with every point that Steve makes.

I think the way to fix this is to write your AHA GC and tell them what you think. Don't just do it now, do it all year long.

Here is a solution I've been proposing throughout the last year: make the CotY award similar to the GABF Brewery of the Year award. There are small, medium, and large breweries of the year. Say it is split into those categories... then your smaller clubs are only competing against themselves. The BNs and the QUAFFs of the world are only competing again themselves as well. There. Everyone's happy and everyone has at least a chance of winning. This system here does not work for the types of clubs we have anymore. It is VERY demotivating to know that you have no chance of winning ant of the big-club awards as a small or medium sized club.

What's the point of this award anyway? To motivate all of the clubs across the country to make great beer in order to become CotY? Or to have only the largest of the large compete against each other? I think the former is a much better way to look at the award. The latter is pretty boring and useless.

Why not just get rid of the first round medals in the Homebrew Club of the Year tally, and only count second round medals? The way it was done in 2012 and before.

My understanding is that first round is only meant to whittle down the entries for the final round, not be a standalone competition.

I wouldn't have as much of an issue with BN winning club of the year if they also won the most second round medals. By my count, Austin Zealots would have won COTY by 2012 rules.

2015: AZ = 20 pts, SP = 18 pts, BN = 10 pts

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 15, 2015, 07:38:57 PM
Why not just get rid of the first round medals in the Homebrew Club of the Year tally, and only count second round medals? The way it was done in 2012 and before.

My understanding is that first round is only meant to whittle down the entries for the final round, not be a standalone competition.

I wouldn't have as much of an issue with BN winning club of the year if they also won the most second round medals. By my count, Austin Zealots would have won COTY by 2012 rules.

2015: AZ = 20 pts, SP = 18 pts, BN = 10 pts

But that's not how it used to work. There was a Club Only Competition circuit that counted to the point totals, which was held multiple times throughout the year and had different categories each time.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 15, 2015, 07:40:01 PM
Quote
What's the point of this award anyway? To motivate all of the clubs across the country to make great beer in order to become CotY? Or to have only the largest of the large compete against each other? I think the former is a much better way to look at the award. The latter is pretty boring and useless.

This. Why can't the rules state that you once you win, you are ineligible for some period - at least 5 years? Does that also devalue the recognition?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 15, 2015, 07:41:14 PM
Here is a solution I've been proposing throughout the last year: make the CotY award similar to the GABF Brewery of the Year award. There are small, medium, and large breweries of the year. Say it is split into those categories... then your smaller clubs are only competing against themselves. The BNs and the QUAFFs of the world are only competing again themselves as well. There. Everyone's happy and everyone has at least a chance of winning. This system here does not work for the types of clubs we have anymore. It is VERY demotivating to know that you have no chance of winning ant of the big-club awards as a small or medium sized club.

I like this idea and have sent an email to the competition subcommittee regarding it.  However, I'm not sure if this resolves the issue with the big clubs competing with the BN club.  I mean, it's what they are doing now and their biggest complaint is the ability of the BN to pull from across the country instead of a single region. 

I really don't know how this will be resolved without someone's "feelings" getting hurt, but anything to stop the booing at the banquet.  And next year, if someone else wins, I guarantee the BN CLUB will be the loudest ones cheering!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jvoeltz on June 15, 2015, 07:43:32 PM
Quote
And next year, if someone else wins, I guarantee the BN CLUB will be the loudest ones cheering!

As QUAFF did this year when BN won it.  ;)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ercousin on June 15, 2015, 07:43:42 PM
Why not just get rid of the first round medals in the Homebrew Club of the Year tally, and only count second round medals? The way it was done in 2012 and before.

My understanding is that first round is only meant to whittle down the entries for the final round, not be a standalone competition.

I wouldn't have as much of an issue with BN winning club of the year if they also won the most second round medals. By my count, Austin Zealots would have won COTY by 2012 rules.

2015: AZ = 20 pts, SP = 18 pts, BN = 10 pts

But that's not how it used to work. There was a Club Only Competition circuit that counted to the point totals, which was held multiple times throughout the year and had different categories each time.

My mistake, my point still stands minus the reference to what I thought were 2012 rules.

Why not just go on total final round points for club of the year, then final points/entry for gambrinus?

Final round should be all that matters, you don't get a medal for first round do you?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 07:52:22 PM
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point? The only valid point is their wingspan, but dont the same rules apply to all clubs? If you want club of the year just get more members from the other regions. If the reply to that is that its not easy to get members from other regions, well was it somehow easier for Justin? I suppose, since I doubt he even cares.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: testingapril on June 15, 2015, 07:54:15 PM
Final round should be all that matters, you don't get a medal for first round do you?

You get a ribbon for first round.

Quote
What's the point of this award anyway? To motivate all of the clubs across the country to make great beer in order to become CotY? Or to have only the largest of the large compete against each other? I think the former is a much better way to look at the award. The latter is pretty boring and useless.

The former would also be the point of the Gambrinus award. How do you fix the CotY award without making the Gambrinus award superfluous.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jvoeltz on June 15, 2015, 08:08:14 PM
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point?

In 2014, BN had 348 entries in the first round. QUAFF has 255. With ~40% more first round entries, BN only beat QUAFF by 6 points.

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final round / total entries in first round).


The danger in changing COTY to final round points only, is that more than likely the Ninkasi winner's club with always win COTY (not that it makes it a bad thing, just something to consider).
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: chumley on June 15, 2015, 08:12:15 PM
Some other homebrewer's internet club is making dick jokes?  Damn, I thought we brew rats had a corner on that.

Next thing you know, the BN will start taunting Dan Listermann....
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 08:16:38 PM
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point?

In 2014, BN had 348 entries in the first round. QUAFF has 255. With ~40% more first round entries, BN only beat QUAFF by 6 points.

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final round / total entries in first round).


The danger in changing COTY to final round points only, is that more than likely the Ninkasi winner's club with always win COTY (not that it makes it a bad thing, just something to consider).
Isnt that making my point though? If sheer number of entrants was what won it, how did they onl win by 6 points?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jvoeltz on June 15, 2015, 08:21:28 PM
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point?

In 2014, BN had 348 entries in the first round. QUAFF has 255. With ~40% more first round entries, BN only beat QUAFF by 6 points.

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final  :)round / total entries in first round).


The danger in changing COTY to final round points only, is that more than likely the Ninkasi winner's club with always win COTY (not that it makes it a bad thing, just something to consider).
Isnt that making my point though? If sheer number of entrants was what won it, how did they onl win by 6 points?

The point is, if QUAFF and BN entered the same number of entries, QUAFF would beat them by a hundred points.  :)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: braufessor on June 15, 2015, 08:25:11 PM
I have considered joining the BN as a club entry.... but haven't, because I do see the points people are making in regard to club of the year.  I live NO WHERE close to a competing club I could really be a part of.  I have been asked by a couple other midwest clubs about maybe entering in their club - people I communicate with on a regular basis with in regard to brewing.... but, likely would not be a "true" participating member.  I have not done that either - although I have considered it - again - because I would like to be part of a club that has a level of focus on competing.  But, as of now..... I just enter under my name, no club, and that seems to be my only real option.

The biggest club(s) will always win.  That is the way it goes. It is not "fair" that the BN has a huge base to draw from.  Of course..... is it really "fair" that people who live 200 miles from a metropolitan area are in clubs that could never possibly compete with massive population areas??  Probably not. 

I think Amanda's suggestion about somehow using a "club size" or "population center" measurement to make 3 "classes" of clubs based on size.

The other thing that could be done is to apply a formula like Midwest Homebrewer of the Year does - Your total entries are compared to your total times placing.  If you enter 100 beers and 50% of them place, your total points are multiplied by .5 for your final tally.  If you enter 100 and only place 15% of the time..... well, your total points are multiplied by .15 for your final tally.  This type of thing would eliminate the ability to win simply by having so many entries you can't lose.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Kid Moxie on June 15, 2015, 08:36:33 PM
Lots of good points folks are making on both sides of the coin. Folks feel frustrated that it seems impossible to compete with a virtual club that can enter many entries in every region and win the numbers game, but also you want everyone to feel like they can be part of a club. Now that each person can realistically only enter 4 entries there's no way a small, but motivated, club can even dream of competing.

Here's a simple solution: change or add an award to be per capita points. Then, for instance, if a club enters 1000 and gets 300 total points that's a lot different than a club that enters 250 beers and gets 100 points. It'll need a bit of work (for instance 2 person club gets 10 points, etc), but it's a way of normalizing the score.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 08:38:48 PM
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point?

In 2014, BN had 348 entries in the first round. QUAFF has 255. With ~40% more first round entries, BN only beat QUAFF by 6 points.

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final  :)round / total entries in first round).


The danger in changing COTY to final round points only, is that more than likely the Ninkasi winner's club with always win COTY (not that it makes it a bad thing, just something to consider).
Isnt that making my point though? If sheer number of entrants was what won it, how did they onl win by 6 points?

The point is, if QUAFF and BN entered the same number of entries, QUAFF would beat them by a hundred points.  :)
If you statistically ration out the winners to losers you're right. But what if it was the BNs top 100 vs QUAFs top 100? How does that work out?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Kid Moxie on June 15, 2015, 08:46:30 PM
Lots of good points folks are making on both sides of the coin. Folks feel frustrated that it seems impossible to compete with a virtual club that can enter many entries in every region and win the numbers game, but also you want everyone to feel like they can be part of a club. Now that each person can realistically only enter 4 entries there's no way a small, but motivated, club can even dream of competing.

Here's a simple solution: change or add an award to be per capita points. Then, for instance, if a club enters 1000 and gets 300 total points that's a lot different than a club that enters 250 beers and gets 100 points. It'll need a bit of work (for instance 2 person club gets 10 points, etc), but it's a way of normalizing the score.

On second look, that appears to be pretty similar to how the Gambrinus award is calculated. It's curious to me why Gambrinus is essentially a footnote at the event while Club of the Year is in the spotlight.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 15, 2015, 08:49:03 PM

It's curious to me why Gambrinus is essentially a footnote at the event while Club of the Year is in the spotlight.
Very curious.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 15, 2015, 08:50:53 PM
Coming from a club that is notorious, but surprisingly small and very loosely organized, I really don't care about the BN domination. As mentioned earlier, take the BN out and another large club will dominate. That domination is the root of the desire to compete at the club level. Of course, we would love the recognition, but I would rather have the Gambrinous personally.

The offensive, sexist garbage  that makes up most of their adverts and some of the programs aside, the BN has done quite a bit to bring in and educate new brewers and get them involved. Heck, would the AHA be willing to give up the $$$ from entries and sponsorships from the BN and their members? Justin got an earful at the AHA Member meeting - I hope he really takes it to heart as well as the AHA leadership. You want diversity? Start treating every brewer with respect a person deserves.

The AHA is working hard to address the youngest brewer demographics. Limiting CoTa to a local/regional club and tossing out social/internet clubs will quickly leave those folk behind, and the AHA will start to shrink into obscurity.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Kid Moxie on June 15, 2015, 09:01:09 PM
The AHA is working hard to address the youngest brewer demographics. Limiting CoTa to a local/regional club and tossing out social/internet clubs will quickly leave those folk behind, and the AHA will start to shrink into obscurity.

A good idea from Ray Found over on Reddit was to split up digital clubs and local clubs. If that's the future, why not embrace it?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 15, 2015, 09:04:15 PM
Justin got an earful at the AHA Member meeting - I hope he really takes it to heart as well as the AHA leadership. You want diversity? Start treating every brewer with respect a person deserves.

Out of curiosity, what was said at the AHA Member meeting to Justin? I was out grabbing dinner somewhere much better than the hotel.  ;)

And April, here's a small portion of what I sent to someone on the AHA GC Comp Committee regarding the Gambrinus Award:
Quote from:  my emailz
Yes, there is the Gambrinus Award, which is basically a winning % game. However, if you think about that award in any detail your club either has to be extremely lucky to have only award winning brewers in your club entering NHC or you have to instruct the less-high-quality brewers to simply not enter the NHC for the sake of winning. And how crappy would that be? For a club like ours, we have many people who are consistent award winners and we also have many people who are just starting out. Could you imagine how poorly that would make some people feel if we were to actually try and make a run at the Gambrinus by way of telling some people not to enter?? That would be terrible.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 15, 2015, 09:12:25 PM
I'm a member of the 1997 Club Of The Year.
it was accomplished with less than 20 members...times have sure changed, eh?!

2014 we finished 5th in COTY.  Only clubs ahead of us were national, giant, a collection of award-winning PNW brewers, and very large.  Only club to win 4 medals; only two others got 3.  Yet we were light years away from COTY points-wise.

So we had aimed for Gambrinus instead.  Finished close 2nd, way ahead of 3rd place, and would have won, if some brand-new brewers hadn't insisted on entering poor batches.  (Whatever; I can't exactly bar them from entering.)  Next year we'll try for Gambrinus again.

Club Of The Year?  Whatever - we don't have a chance, so we don't care. It's too bad, because the COTY award WAS one we were proud of.

My HOPE is that the other large clubs will dissolve into small ones, to try for Gambrinus.  I would argue that QUAFF coming close is actually dragging this out.  Once BN is winning COTY by a factor of 5 over every other club, it'll eventually go away.  Same goes for if BN no longer entered and QUAFF was dominating - that wouldn't have meaning either.

cheers--
--Michael

P.S. - I'm taking applications if any Midwest superclubs are forming and recruiting.    ;)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mike89t on June 15, 2015, 09:14:50 PM

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final round / total entries in first round).

If that is true it's very telling indeed.  Seems like it has become a bogus award.  Somethings got to change or drop it all together IMO.

I'm a big BN fan and learned a lot from their show.  Went to their party on Wednesday night and had a blast (Minus the bus delay  >:(  ).  It was very professional and well organized.  Great way to start off an awesome weekend.  Thanks to the BN for hosting that!

With that said NHC club night was AMAZING.  So many great Clubs out there that really put a lot into their booths and the beer that they were serving was fantastic.  I had heard club night was fun prior to attending NHC, but actually experiencing it really opened my eyes.  Kudos to all the great clubs out there that gave it their all!  You are the true winners in my book.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 15, 2015, 09:16:42 PM
Out of curiosity, what was said at the AHA Member meeting to Justin? I was out grabbing dinner somewhere much better than the hotel.  ;)
When the topic of diversity came up, someone brought up a lot of things said in line for the BNA party that were even baser than dick jokes.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 15, 2015, 09:18:10 PM
I'm a member of the 1997 Club Of The Year.
it was accomplished with less than 20 members...times have sure changed, eh?!

KCBM won CotY in 2000 with about 8-10 people actually entering in a club of about 30.  ;)

So we had aimed for Gambrinus instead.  Finished close 2nd, way ahead of 3rd place, and would have won, if some brand-new brewers hadn't insisted on entering poor batches.  (Whatever; I can't exactly bar them from entering.)  Next year we'll try for Gambrinus again.

My point exactly. You can't really tell people not to enter - that would obviously be a d*ck move.

P.S. - I'm taking applications if any Midwest superclubs are forming and recruiting.    ;)

If nothing changes, I think it'll happen this year. We just need an epic name! ;) (That doesn't bash the BN - they aren't the cause of this.)
Title: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 15, 2015, 09:28:02 PM
With that said NHC club night was AMAZING.  So many great Clubs out there that really put a lot into their booths and the beer that they were serving was fantastic.  I had heard club night was fun prior to attending NHC, but actually experiencing it really opened my eyes.  Kudos to all the great clubs out there that gave it their all!  You are the true winners in my book.
Fellow BN lover here. Club night WAS amazing, would have been cool if they had a booth...
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: braufessor on June 15, 2015, 09:33:28 PM

Quote from:  my emailz
Yes, there is the Gambrinus Award, which is basically a winning % game. However, if you think about that award in any detail your club either has to be extremely lucky to have only award winning brewers in your club entering NHC or you have to instruct the less-high-quality brewers to simply not enter the NHC for the sake of winning. And how crappy would that be? For a club like ours, we have many people who are consistent award winners and we also have many people who are just starting out. Could you imagine how poorly that would make some people feel if we were to actually try and make a run at the Gambrinus by way of telling some people not to enter?? That would be terrible.

That is a good point.... and I suppose that type of thing would be the downfall of some sort of Midwest Homebrewer of the Year format.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mike89t on June 15, 2015, 09:33:46 PM
Fellow BN lover here. Club night WAS amazing, would have been cool if they had a booth...

They did have a booth.  It was kind of in the middle but got lost in the crowd.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 15, 2015, 09:33:53 PM
Amanda, will direct message you the statement, as it will totally derail this thread. The alleged event was offensive, inappropriate and the very brave lady barely was able to deliver the message without tears. This was after the Foam Rangers proudly announced that the Dixie Cup is being run by their female members and renamed, "The Chixie Cup, In with Chicks and out with Dicks" like it was advancing and embracing women. There was very uncomfortable silence and light chuckling. I hope the Q&A session was recorded and will be posted.

EDIT: The offense was not accused of any BN personnel or employee... I didn't mean to imply or infer that at all.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: braufessor on June 15, 2015, 09:35:01 PM


P.S. - I'm taking applications if any Midwest superclubs are forming and recruiting.    ;)

Sign me up ;D
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 15, 2015, 09:37:43 PM
Amanda, will direct message you the statement, as it will totally derail this thread.

I would also post what was said to me at Club Night, but it would also derail the thread. Let's just say that someone got an earful from me after they were done talking.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 15, 2015, 09:45:41 PM
This was after the Foam Rangers proudly announced that the Dixie Cup is being run by their female members [...]
Actually, I don't think it was one of the Foam Rangers.  I tried to turn around quick enough to see it, and I think it may have been Ted Hausotter (he gave a hop talk at last year's, although that would technically make him a lifetime Foam Ranger).
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 15, 2015, 09:51:52 PM

Amanda, will direct message you the statement, as it will totally derail this thread.

I would also post what was said to me at Club Night, but it would also derail the thread. Let's just say that someone got an earful from me after they were done talking.
Now I'm beyond curious.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 15, 2015, 09:54:16 PM

Fellow BN lover here. Club night WAS amazing, would have been cool if they had a booth...

They did have a booth.  It was kind of in the middle but got lost in the crowd.
Pathetically, I probably stopped there and just don't remember. Honestly, like Amanda said, this isn't the BN's fault.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 10:00:46 PM
Something offensive was said in the line entering the BN anniversary party? I find that hard to believe.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 15, 2015, 10:06:26 PM
Toby, you might be right... I thought he was wearing the DeFalco's shirt.

To sum up the discussion, it was about tolerance and some (very) offensive comments made by folks waiting in line for the BN party bus. Embarrassing.

That said, I don't want the whole event to be colored by this. The NHC was an amazing experience (my first time), but there are pretty serious issues to address that cannot be laid just at the BN. Sexism, intolerance and bigotry in any membership or attendance should be confronted. I was happy to see a people of all races, cultures and facial hair epic-ness (or lack there of...) attending.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 15, 2015, 10:08:25 PM
Jim, honestly if you heard it - handcuffs would have been deployed. I don't doubt for a minute her veracity... it was offensive, inappropriate and my dad would have beaten me within an inch of my life for even thinking such a thing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 10:21:10 PM
I don't doubt it. But was it Justin or  one of his employees who said it? I'm just trying to figure why we would be chewing out Justin for that?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 15, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
To be very clear - from what I heard, it happened in line for the BN party, not by any BN staff or representative. I am not accusing anyone from there... Justin responded as part of the elected committee - and apparently had a "foot-in-mouth" slip at the party - so was a bit sensitive. I wasn't there. Apologies if I implied anything otherwise.

I was extremely disappointed in the responses from the governing committee, basically a qualified apology and to continue a "conversation". I need to listen to the recording when it is published, perhaps I misheard the context.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Kid Moxie on June 15, 2015, 10:31:21 PM
Jim, honestly if you heard it - handcuffs would have been deployed. I don't doubt for a minute her veracity... it was offensive, inappropriate and my dad would have beaten me within an inch of my life for even thinking such a thing.

When I heard about it it was one of the few times in my life I would've really felt justified sucker punching the d-bags that said it.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 15, 2015, 11:09:46 PM
Just for clarity sake, I'm not in anyway trying to defend the foolish juvenile comments made on any BN show. I'm from a generation raised on buggs bunny and daffy duck. Most of that crowd were raised on beevis, butthead, and cartman. Its no surprise. It doesn't offend me, it just makes me glad I'm old. Plus I can turn it off if I'm not in the mood.

Personally, I'd rather listen to that garbage than a lot of other garbage. I sift through the nonsense for what I want.

Bottom line, if he's outgrown his usefulness as a GC member, maybe its time to vote differently? If BNA10 was a problem, people shouldn't buy tickets next year.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Honestly, I have bigger fish to fry.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ranchovillabrew on June 15, 2015, 11:18:07 PM
Not BN  related,  but in line with the conversations  that shouldn't have  occurred.  In line for the  banquet  I heard one of the most  racist  conversations I've ever heard.  When we entered the  banquet  we made sure NOT  to sit next to the people  behind  us in line.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 15, 2015, 11:31:03 PM
It's a shame, but being able to brew beer unfortunately doesn't guarantee that somebody isn't a numb-nutted D-bag. Glad that stuff was in the minority at least.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ranchovillabrew on June 15, 2015, 11:33:35 PM
Absolutely,  only two  people  all weekend I didn't  enjoy  speaking with.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 15, 2015, 11:34:43 PM

Absolutely,  only two  people  all weekend I didn't  enjoy  speaking with.
I made the cut!!!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mike89t on June 16, 2015, 12:11:33 AM
P.S. - I'm taking applications if any Midwest superclubs are forming and recruiting.    ;)

Hmmm Superclubs...

At Club night the Arizona club and Austin Zealots club were right next to each other.  They both have the same initials (AZ) and both had a bunch of award winning beer during the first round and finals.  If they were to create a Superclub they could easily beat the BN national team for COTY.  Could call themselves South West AZmatic Brewers (SWAB) Superclub or something stupid like that.  Its foolproof I tell you! ;)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 16, 2015, 12:29:45 AM
I love The BN and believe they have contributed an insurmountable amount of information to the homebrewing community. Being my first NHC, I was under the impression the booing when they won (which we all expected) was for fun. I'm not sure what I really think about the fact they continue to win CotY, but I'm compelled to encourage the formation of perhaps a collaborative new (and huge) club that's focused solely on winning this award. It may take some time, but I don't think it's impossible, and my guess is even The BN would view it as a fun thing.

Ultimately, "we" are who makeup the BN Army (I am a member), we are this community. The fact they are now expected to win based purely on their numbers absolutely waters down the award. Hmm.
The Austin Club killed it in the second round, but BN had the most first round points, which put them over.

I didn't boo. They won under the rules that are posted. Could the rules be changed? Yes.

Good points by Steve.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 16, 2015, 01:35:45 AM
I guess we could divide first round points by number of regions entered, then add Finals pts.

*shrug* - silly, yeah. Just like the way we do it now...

*edit* - actually lets just get rid of Gambrinus, and make COTY total First + Final round points divided by total entries.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bengelbrau on June 16, 2015, 02:25:55 AM
And once you win COTY, what do you have? Something sparkly that can hang on someone else's wall? If this is about who "wins", it seems like something is awry.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 16, 2015, 02:29:00 AM
Dude, AZmatics made me laugh out loud... Good blood between clubs. So many former Zealots are there now. It's a love fest.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 16, 2015, 02:44:52 AM
Toby, you might be right... I thought he was wearing the DeFalco's shirt.
That would have been Scott then.  I didn't see him at the time, and didn't even realize he was in attendance until after the banquet.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: S. cerevisiae on June 16, 2015, 04:59:47 AM
I guess that I will add my two cents to the discussion.  I have never understood the concept of brewing as a competitive sport.  To me, it just takes the fun out of brewing.  It took me over twenty years to enter my first and last BJCP-sanctioned contest.  I thought that I could gain a better handle on brewing as a competitive sport by getting involved with the BJCP.  Sadly, it took me a year and half to realize that being involved with the BJCP just compounded the problem by adding hierarchy to the mix.

This thread highlights the dangers of brewing as a competitive sport.  Why does the home brewing club of the year have to be based on competition points?  Why isn't it based on retention, quality of the educational program, service to one's community, or some other metric?  While I understand that there is a hardcore competitive element within the AHA that would not have it any other way, that element is still a fraction of the AHA base.  Very few brewers that I know compete in brewing contests, and that list includes several BJCP judges.  I am hoping that their will come a time where the membership base is large enough that we can separate the National Homebrewers Conference from the National Homebrew Competition much in the same way that the Craft Brewers Conference is a separate event from the Great American Beer Festival.   

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jvoeltz on June 16, 2015, 05:24:59 AM
Dude, AZmatics made me laugh out loud... Good blood between clubs. So many former Zealots are there now. It's a love fest.

Don't forget some of us ASHoles are honorary ZEALOTS as well!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dbeechum on June 16, 2015, 07:12:34 AM
You know of all the years that I had to miss the AHA Members meeting - it was probably a good thing. I got the report afterwards and I can safely say that I know of no one on the GC that wasn't horrified at the story.

What was said was so far beyond the pale of anything that has ever slipped the surly tongues of any of the BN hosts. Of course, when you've modeled your schtick on Stern, you're going to get the same crappy response as some of Stern's fans.

On Justin's usefulness as a GC member - he's been pretty damn valuable and is a helluva lot more thoughtful than I think people would give him credit for.

On the subject of the BN as a Club or Not-A-Club - the question all hinges on how you want to define it. What's the minimum number of meetings? What's the threshold that one needs to cross. I don't know. I do know that the BN serves as a damn good feeder source for a great many homebrew clubs and the AHA out there. They've been an awfully fine gateway "drug" for getting folks hooked into the idea of being involved with a group.(Even with all the juvenalia)

Lots of different ideas tossed about with regards to levelling the playing field - without being grossly targeting. My one thought was to set the 1st round points on a per-capita basis levelling with 2nd round medals staying flat rate. E.g. the BN has 300 entries and places 100 points worth of medals earns them 30 points where QUAFF placing 80 points with 200 medals earns them 32 points and Joe's Homebrew Shack places 40 points with 35 entries earns them 46 points. After that in the second round, medals get added on a per medal basis (e.g 6 for each gold, 4 for silver,2 for bronze).

Or my personal favorite is reset the award importance and rename CotY to the AHA Habonde Club of the Year (or some such) for the most profligate brewers.

And to the yeasty one's point, when I gave my intro to the Radegast, I explained the rationale as one where competition just isn't the reason for being in a club or being a homebrewer for the vast majority of folks, so we wanted a way to recognize what is the important stuff to most of us.

Having said that, the competition is something people like and I think it will always be part of the convention because it's the one time you can gather that many judges together to handle the workload of the second round in one day.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: guido on June 16, 2015, 09:41:54 AM
I love The BN and believe they have contributed an insurmountable amount of information to the homebrewing community. Being my first NHC, I was under the impression the booing when they won (which we all expected) was for fun. I'm not sure what I really think about the fact they continue to win CotY, but I'm compelled to encourage the formation of perhaps a collaborative new (and huge) club that's focused solely on winning this award. It may take some time, but I don't think it's impossible, and my guess is even The BN would view it as a fun thing.

Ultimately, "we" are who makeup the BN Army (I am a member), we are this community. The fact they are now expected to win based purely on their numbers absolutely waters down the award. Hmm.
The Austin Club killed it in the second round, but BN had the most first round points, which put them over.

I didn't boo. They won under the rules that are posted. Could the rules be changed? Yes.

Good points by Steve.

I agree. Yeah, it's not fair that the BN won COTY, but those are the rules. I'm sure the AHA didn't foresee such a situation when they originally drafted the award criteria. It is what it is. That said, the rules need to be changed.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Phil_M on June 16, 2015, 12:10:39 PM
This sort of drama is the reason why I have no interest in ANY of the competitions. I'd love to have my beers evaluated and win medals, sure, but there seems to be even more gamesmanship here than my old hobby of auto racing.

I have no dog in this fight, I can agree with both sides of the argument about BN. I just hope people new to the hobby aren't put off by this mess.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 16, 2015, 12:23:13 PM
I love The BN and believe they have contributed an insurmountable amount of information to the homebrewing community. Being my first NHC, I was under the impression the booing when they won (which we all expected) was for fun. I'm not sure what I really think about the fact they continue to win CotY, but I'm compelled to encourage the formation of perhaps a collaborative new (and huge) club that's focused solely on winning this award. It may take some time, but I don't think it's impossible, and my guess is even The BN would view it as a fun thing.

Ultimately, "we" are who makeup the BN Army (I am a member), we are this community. The fact they are now expected to win based purely on their numbers absolutely waters down the award. Hmm.
The Austin Club killed it in the second round, but BN had the most first round points, which put them over.

I didn't boo. They won under the rules that are posted. Could the rules be changed? Yes.

Good points by Steve.

I agree. Yeah, it's not fair that the BN won COTY, but those are the rules. I'm sure the AHA didn't foresee such a situation when they originally drafted the award criteria. It is what it is. That said, the rules need to be changed.
Fine, the rules need to be changed, but let's change them in a way that's fair for all members and not exclude a large group of paying AHA members just because everyone thinks the BN has an unfair advantage.  Maybe the AHA can release the number of entries entered by each of the larger clubs.  What if Quaff has nearly as many or even more entries under their club but the BN still had more first round points.  Would that change people's attitudes?

As far as the BN not being a club...I've met most of my brewing friends through the Brewing Network.  Whenever I'm at festivals and I see a BN shirt or hat, I stop and chat with them, most of the time meeting someone from the forum that I can know put a face too.  One BN member from VA has family in the town next to mine and we get together for beer festivals, brewery tours, etc. 

As to the fact that you don't think the Brewing Network club could win Radegast, I wouldn't count them out so fast.  A lot of times the call will go out to the BN Army when someone is raising money for charity or a club member passes away, and the club membership responds with support on a massive scale.

Try to remember, these club members are fellow homebrewers and AHA members and have no ill-will towards anyone or evil plan to overthrow the AHA.  They are just as excited to win a medal and get the recognition they deserve for brewing some great beer.

I enter several local (and not so local) competitions each year, yes for winning a medal but also to push myself to improve my brewing skills.  The AHA competition is the World Series in my mind...going up against some of the best homebrewers in the world. 

Again, I am a BNArmy "CLUB" member, but enter under my small local club so I have no illusions about winning COTY or even Gambrinus.  Even when they've won the past 5 years and Justin calls the BNArmy up on stage, I didn't go because I didn't enter under the BN (one year was because I doubt I could have made it to the stage ;) )

It shall be an interesting year seeing how this develops for sure.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brulosopher on June 16, 2015, 12:32:44 PM

I love The BN and believe they have contributed an insurmountable amount of information to the homebrewing community. Being my first NHC, I was under the impression the booing when they won (which we all expected) was for fun. I'm not sure what I really think about the fact they continue to win CotY, but I'm compelled to encourage the formation of perhaps a collaborative new (and huge) club that's focused solely on winning this award. It may take some time, but I don't think it's impossible, and my guess is even The BN would view it as a fun thing.

Ultimately, "we" are who makeup the BN Army (I am a member), we are this community. The fact they are now expected to win based purely on their numbers absolutely waters down the award. Hmm.
The Austin Club killed it in the second round, but BN had the most first round points, which put them over.

I didn't boo. They won under the rules that are posted. Could the rules be changed? Yes.

Good points by Steve.

I agree. Yeah, it's not fair that the BN won COTY, but those are the rules. I'm sure the AHA didn't foresee such a situation when they originally drafted the award criteria. It is what it is. That said, the rules need to be changed.
Try to remember, these club members are fellow homebrewers and AHA members and have no ill-will towards anyone or evil plan to overthrow the AHA.  They are just as excited to win a medal and get the recognition they deserve for brewing some great beer.
Indeed.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 16, 2015, 01:53:25 PM




On Justin's usefulness as a GC member - he's been pretty damn valuable and is a helluva lot more thoughtful than I think people would give him credit for.

When I bluntly asked, this was the answer I suspected and im glad it came from someone who would know and not be doubted. Thanks Drew
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: denny on June 16, 2015, 03:37:10 PM
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point? The only valid point is their wingspan, but dont the same rules apply to all clubs? If you want club of the year just get more members from the other regions. If the reply to that is that its not easy to get members from other regions, well was it somehow easier for Justin? I suppose, since I doubt he even cares.

Yes, it was easier for them because they have a podcast to use as a recruitment tool.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 16, 2015, 03:53:31 PM
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point? The only valid point is their wingspan, but dont the same rules apply to all clubs? If you want club of the year just get more members from the other regions. If the reply to that is that its not easy to get members from other regions, well was it somehow easier for Justin? I suppose, since I doubt he even cares.

Yes, it was easier for them because they have a podcast to use as a recruitment tool.
I hear ya. But I listen to every podcast and they dont recruit. Its there, they chat about it, but not like "come on everyone, write down BN as your club". From my perspective Justin views it as an albatross around his neck. As to the podcast, you're right. But what I'm trying to hint at is that the podcast and Brewing Network and tge Hop Grenade didn't just fall out of the sky.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 16, 2015, 03:54:40 PM
As a completely neutral observer (don't have a club, don't enter competitions), Amanda's suggestion that there be 3 awards for small, medium, and large clubs makes the most sense. Its fair and it would actually motivate more clubs because every one would have a shot.
If I had time and there was a good one near me I might join a club but it would be to hang out and talk home brewing and do things together. If its not small enough and local enough for me to know everyone in it I personally wouldn't refer to it as a "club". I would consider it an "organization" or "association".
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 16, 2015, 03:58:11 PM
As a completely neutral observer (don't have a club, don't enter competitions), Amanda's suggestion that there be 3 awards for small, medium, and large clubs makes the most sense. Its fair and it would actually motivate more clubs because every one would have a shot.
If I had time and there was a good one near me I might join a club but it would be to hang out and talk home brewing and do things together. If its not small enough and local enough for me to know everyone in it I personally wouldn't refer to it as a "club". I would consider it an "organization" or "association".

+1  Seems the fairest solution to me.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 16, 2015, 04:31:07 PM
As a completely neutral observer (don't have a club, don't enter competitions), Amanda's suggestion that there be 3 awards for small, medium, and large clubs makes the most sense. Its fair and it would actually motivate more clubs because every one would have a shot.
If I had time and there was a good one near me I might join a club but it would be to hang out and talk home brewing and do things together. If its not small enough and local enough for me to know everyone in it I personally wouldn't refer to it as a "club". I would consider it an "organization" or "association".

+1  Seems the fairest solution to me.
Fair and neutral is what we should be aiming for, IMO. I'm glad the idea comes off as that.

We can't fault the BN for being perfectly within the rules and winning. When entry limits were put in place, it switched from having many great brewers to just having a lot of brewers. The BN has a lot of brewers, therefore they have been winning. That's all it really is at this point.

Club of the Year shouldn't be about who can field the largest pool of brewers, but until the rules change, that's what it will be.

FWIW, I already sent my suggestions to someone I know on the AHA Comp sub committee. I encourage you all to do the same (but only if you keep a level head about it - shouting at volunteers is never good form).
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: homebrewdad7 on June 16, 2015, 04:37:43 PM
I'd like to agree with the idea that this really should be split into clubs (local organizations where people physically meet) and online communities (where people post to forums, browse a website, etc).
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 16, 2015, 06:32:35 PM
Drew' suggestion to entry number weight the first round entries is good and workable.

Amanda's suggestion has attractiveness and would be workable. I have to say as someone who grew up in Indiana where every school played in the basketball tourney with no size categories (remember the movie Hoosiers?), the term Basketball State Champion was cheapened when they finally did go to a size based tourney. It ain't what it used to be, I don't follow it anymore. Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 16, 2015, 06:43:57 PM
I have to say as someone who grew up in Indiana where every school played in the basketball tourney with no size categories (remember the movie Hoosiers?), the term Basketball State Champion was cheapened when they finally did go to a size based tourney. It ain't what it used to be, I don't follow it anymore. Just my $0.02.

I don't follow it anymore either, Jeff.  It ruined it.  I'd add though that Hickory High still got to play 5 against 5 when they played Muncie.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 16, 2015, 06:59:28 PM
I have to say as someone who grew up in Indiana where every school played in the basketball tourney with no size categories (remember the movie Hoosiers?), the term Basketball State Champion was cheapened when they finally did go to a size based tourney. It ain't what it used to be, I don't follow it anymore. Just my $0.02.

I don't follow it anymore either, Jeff.  It ruined it.  I'd add though that Hickory High still got to play 5 against 5 when they played Muncie.
Bobby Plump's Last Shot was an institution in Broad Ripple, still there I think. An Indiana reference for sure.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 16, 2015, 07:08:10 PM
I have to say as someone who grew up in Indiana where every school played in the basketball tourney with no size categories (remember the movie Hoosiers?), the term Basketball State Champion was cheapened when they finally did go to a size based tourney. It ain't what it used to be, I don't follow it anymore. Just my $0.02.

I don't follow it anymore either, Jeff.  It ruined it.  I'd add though that Hickory High still got to play 5 against 5 when they played Muncie.
Bobby Plump's Last Shot was an institution in Broad Ripple, still there I think. An Indiana reference for sure.

Yep, still there to my knowledge. A few new brewpubs and tasting rooms as well.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 16, 2015, 07:49:16 PM
Dividing by size is fine, though each winner will no doubt be at the top of their size range.

...was just talking to Amanda that the entire current system is the antithesis of what clubs are about. Sad.
Sad that we've got to scheme and potentially leave new enthusiastic brewers out or recruit as many as possible outside our area if we want to win.

I'd still like to see us give "most final round points" and "most total points per entry" awards.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: micsager on June 16, 2015, 08:07:12 PM
I am a member of the BNArmy.  And always will be.  Justin has done some wonderful things to help folks become better brewers.  I refer all new brewers in my local club to The BN.  The archive of Brewstrong is just plain wonderful. 

The only single thing that makes them "not a club" to me is the members don't get to choose their leaders, content of meetings or such. 

But, I do think Justin and his crew deserve much appreciation from all of us.  They are an important part of our community. 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 16, 2015, 08:17:59 PM
I am a member of the BNArmy.  And always will be.  Justin has done some wonderful things to help folks become better brewers.  I refer all new brewers in my local club to The BN.  The archive of Brewstrong is just plain wonderful. 

The only single thing that makes them "not a club" to me is the members don't get to choose their leaders, content of meetings or such. 

But, I do think Justin and his crew deserve much appreciation from all of us.  They are an important part of our community.
It seems everyone on this thread is saying that BN is a good organization that does good things. Its the rules of this contest that people think need to be changed.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: micsager on June 16, 2015, 08:21:39 PM
I am a member of the BNArmy.  And always will be.  Justin has done some wonderful things to help folks become better brewers.  I refer all new brewers in my local club to The BN.  The archive of Brewstrong is just plain wonderful. 

The only single thing that makes them "not a club" to me is the members don't get to choose their leaders, content of meetings or such. 

But, I do think Justin and his crew deserve much appreciation from all of us.  They are an important part of our community.
It seems everyone on this thread is saying that BN is a good organization that does good things. Its the rules of this contest that people think need to be changed.

Agreed.  Folks hould be contacting the governing committee, and suggest specific changes. 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 16, 2015, 08:36:02 PM
The last 13 Homebrew Clubs of the Year:

  2003 QUAFF
  2004 QUAFF
  2005 QUAFF
  2006 QUAFF
  2007 Saint Paul
  2008 ? (the AHA site has some guy listed-Saint Paul again perhaps?)
  2009 Saint Paul
  2010 DOZE
  2011 The Brewing Network
  2012 The Brewing Network
  2013 The Brewing Network
  2014 The Brewing Network
  2015 The Brewing Network

Eliminate "online" clubs and I'm sure this list will look the same, minus the BN.  And having separate COTY categories for online vs. brick and mortar - how exciting that would be  ::).  The BN vs. Chop and Brew vs. Homebrewtalk...yay.

Maybe the COTY has run it's course and all effort should go into the Gambrinus and Radegast to make them the highlight of the evening.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: S. cerevisiae on June 17, 2015, 12:25:38 AM
Speaking of clubs, does anyone know what percentage of AHA members belong to a club?  Most of the brewers that I have known over the years have not been members of organized clubs. 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 17, 2015, 01:15:24 AM
Speaking of clubs, does anyone know what percentage of AHA members belong to a club?  Most of the brewers that I have known over the years have not been members of organized clubs.
I would say I'm at least in part an AHA member because I live in a rural area with no clubs nearby and this forum is my chance to talk brewing, pick others brains, connect etc.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 17, 2015, 02:00:47 AM
Speaking of clubs, does anyone know what percentage of AHA members belong to a club?  Most of the brewers that I have known over the years have not been members of organized clubs.
I don't know if they collected that stat in the new survey they seemed to have been posting during the members' meeting.  The only one I can seem to find currently is the one from 2013:
https://www.brewersassociation.org/press-releases/aha-infographic/
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 17, 2015, 05:15:42 AM
Isnt there like 30k members and like 4k enter?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 17, 2015, 05:48:15 AM
Isnt there like 30k members and like 4k enter?
There are just over 40k members, 3181 entered in 2014.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: JT on June 17, 2015, 09:38:35 AM
Sounds like the award qualifications need to be changed.  Or better yet, removed altogether.  I mean, really what does this award prove?  Clubs with the highest number of entries will have a statistical advantage in placement. 
If the club is listed by the home brewer it gets listed with the brewer's name.  There's the club recognition, end of story, problem solved. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 17, 2015, 11:00:00 AM
As someone who wasn't really aware of this award until this thread I'm surprised that this award is called "club of the year" .To me the Radegast award, which seems to be based on all the good things a club did that year is the "club of the year" The current COTY year should be just called NHC champion. A club could spend their whole year abusing puppies and be named COTY as it stands. Obviously from what I hear on this thread the winning club does a lot of good things for himebrewing and beyond, I'm just saying that I don't thing winning one contest, even the biggest one, should be the criteria for COTY. It sends the wrong message that clubs are only about competing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 17, 2015, 11:31:22 AM
I kinda thought that it was obvious that the award announced at the end of the National Homebrewing Competition was about competition. No one has said COTY stands for anything else.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: JT on June 17, 2015, 12:13:10 PM
As someone who wasn't really aware of this award until this thread I'm surprised that this award is called "club of the year" .To me the Radegast award, which seems to be based on all the good things a club did that year is the "club of the year" The current COTY year should be just called NHC champion. A club could spend their whole year abusing puppies and be named COTY as it stands. Obviously from what I hear on this thread the winning club does a lot of good things for himebrewing and beyond, I'm just saying that I don't thing winning one contest, even the biggest one, should be the criteria for COTY. It sends the wrong message that clubs are only about competing.
I agree and my experience is the same as yours.  Having never been to the NHC, I didn't know the award existed before this thread, and the name seems very inappropriate/misleading.  It's just a silly award, IMO. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jeffjm on June 17, 2015, 01:30:01 PM
I originally liked the idea of a midwest super-club, but I'm starting to think that the formation of a huge club isn't going to solve the problem of huge clubs being the only ones with a chance at winning CoTY.

Amanda's suggestion about GABF-style categories is a good one. I think it could be made even better by splitting the categories into small regional club, medium regional club, large regional club, and internet-based club. With the current entry limits, I don't see how even a club with 200-300 members can compete with a club that has thousands. FWIW, I come from a large club by most standards, but so few of us compete that we'd never win.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: elburko25 on June 17, 2015, 06:00:20 PM
I originally liked the idea of a midwest super-club, but I'm starting to think that the formation of a huge club isn't going to solve the problem of huge clubs being the only ones with a chance at winning CoTY.

Amanda's suggestion about GABF-style categories is a good one. I think it could be made even better by splitting the categories into small regional club, medium regional club, large regional club, and internet-based club. With the current entry limits, I don't see how even a club with 200-300 members can compete with a club that has thousands. FWIW, I come from a large club by most standards, but so few of us compete that we'd never win.
These are my exact thoughts as well. I was one of the people originally advocating the large "superclub", but the more I organized my thoughts the more I would like to just campaign to our AHA governing committee. I love the idea of just seeing if we can change the rules to include clubs of multiple sizes. Maybe like a small club (under 50 members) a medium size (51-150 members) a large club (150-500) and the superclubs (500+)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 17, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
I am loving the civility of this conversation and appreciate all the suggestions to fix a problem that is has gone neglected for years. I was reading another thread from 2011 that was discussing this same issue back when the BN won the first time. The final solution suggested in that thread was to "Brew Better Beer." 5 Years later and the BN dominating all 5 years while placing last in Gambrinus, I doubt anyone would agree that solution works considering this has simply become a numbers game.

IMHO, the boos expressed at the banquet were less out the BN and more about the AHA's inaction in addressing this issue. Like everyone else has stated, I don't blame the BN for working within the rules, I blame the AHA for not doing their job to ensure fairness for EVERY AHA member. Even long standing members of the BN were addressing this issue with me, one even went so far as to say "throwing sh*t against the wall to see what sticks" is not what the true intent of this contest should be.

I think the core issue that needs to be address is what the AHA defines as a club. I know there has been a discussion about not disenfranchising any person, despite their club of choice but again, what defines a club. I'm in ASH and our final round Gold Medal came from a member who was a former Zealot. Granted, he did not have to join our club when he moved into town and probably could have entered as a Zealot if he wanted to, but his new home was in Arizona so he joined the local club. ASH also has many former members who are now with QUAFF since they moved to San Diego. BN members (and other National Internet clubs) do not have to deal with this, while local terrestrial clubs gain and lose members due to locale changes.

I know there is the argument that many BN members are too far from a local club to participate but in my mind, that is just an excuse for the majority of those folks. There was a time when none of our clubs existed. It took a bunch of like-minded people to organize and establish a local club. Well maybe you don't like your local club? Many cities have multiple clubs, in fact I know people who belong to a local club but still claim the BN in comps. Too busy to attend meetings? Many clubs like mine have started recording their meetings, in fact we even started live streaming our meetings for those who cannot attend. So while I get that there are many reasons people choose not to organize locally, those excuses really don't tell the whole story. I too do not want to detract from the good the BN has done for the community, but nothing is more effective than a local grass root effort from boots on the ground.

I too felt quite puzzled as to why they were given the mic at the banquet to accept their award when the other winners were not. Yeah I suppose that could have been just something Justin chose to do on his own and the AHA didn’t want to cause a scene, but maybe it’s because they were producing a show. I mean its great publicity for the For-Profit BN. So is the BN a club or a business/sponsor? We really have no way of answering that as the AHA has continuously failed to fully address what defines a club. I do have to question where the line is drawn. I once worked for a company that was a sponsor of American Idol which meant myself, my family, and any personal close friends were ineligible to try out for the competition. Is there a point where a sponsor becomes too intertwined to the host organization to ensure fairness and neutrality?

So how do we fix it (or does the AHA want to fix it)? Lots of good suggestions in this thread. I really like the separating clubs into chapters based on local and also like the final round points being worth more that first round. I also like using an algorithm to balance out the number of entries to number of points. Not sure if those fix the problem, but they are action rather than inaction. Not too keen on the idea of separating based on club size, but that might be more based on the fact that I am in a larger club and would still get our butts kicked by the BN. Of course maybe segmenting it based on total club entries rather than total club members might work, especially for those larger clubs who have very few members compete. As suggested, adding a national or Internet club category might help, but then again the BN would still dominate its category. Oh and while I love the idea of an ASH-ZEALOTS-QUAFF- SPHBC-ETC super competition club (mostly because I love hanging out with all of you), that just seems silly that we have to resort to those tactics because the AHA won’t address this issue (plus I heard it was actually tried before and the AHA squashed it claiming it was “against the spirit of the competition.”) Another idea I have floated is requiring NHC entries to have placed in another AHA sanctioned competition throughout the before they are eligible to enter the NHC comp, but that might require more resources than available.

At the end of the day, it is not our problem to fix as we do not have the authority to do so. Where we do have control is in our elected Governing Board. If we choose to not hold them accountable (and by accountable I mean bringing this issue to their attention, including suggestions on how to fix it), then it will never change. If they won’t speak for their members, then maybe they do not best represent their regions and need to be replaced by people who better understand their constituents.

Apologies for the novel, but I love this community and don’t want to see it splinter over something so frivolous.

CHEERS!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 17, 2015, 06:56:00 PM
BN members (and other National Internet clubs) do not have to deal with this, while local terrestrial clubs gain and lose members due to locale changes.
Not so. Several people, myself included, who have entered under the BN club in the past find a local club and enter under that club, even though they know there's no chance of winning a COTY or Gambrinus.  Could I enter under the BN and go up on stage during the conference?  Sure, but that's not why I and most people enter.

Many cities have multiple clubs, in fact I know people who belong to a local club but still claim the BN in comps. Too busy to attend meetings? Many clubs like mine have started recording their meetings, in fact we even started live streaming our meetings for those who cannot attend.
A lot of people don't live in a city.  some may be far away from a local club or in a rural area where there aren't a lot of homebrewers or homebrewers interested in being in a club to form one.  Also, a lot of people got their homebrewing chops from the BN and have a connection with the members, chatting in the forums or on the live chat during show and meeting outside of the BN broadcasts to brew, attend beer festivals or just hang out.

So you are saying if you stream your meetings and watch them online, you are a club member and can legitimately join as a member of that club?  Sounds like an internet based club.

I too felt quite puzzled as to why they were given the mic at the banquet to accept their award when the other winners were not.  Yeah I suppose that could have been just something Justin chose to do on his own and the AHA didn’t want to cause a scene, but maybe it’s because they were producing a show.
Do you honestly think Gary would deny the Gambrinus winner time on the microphone?  Even Mark Schoppe was being called out by the crowd to give a speech but he declined.  Obviously, Justin is comfortable addressing a crowd and grabbing the microphone on behalf of the BN Army is second nature to him.

So is the BN a club or a business/sponsor? We really have no way of answering that as the AHA has continuously failed to fully address what defines a club.
Even though Justin accepted the award for the BN Army, he has nothing to do with the forming of the BN club.  It was a listener who didn't have access to his own club and setup the BN Army as a sanctioned club.  He even handed off the trophy to one of the winners for him to take back to his table because it was his award.

Not sure if those fix the problem, but they are action rather than inaction. Not too keen on the idea of separating based on club size, but that might be more based on the fact that I am in a larger club and would still get our butts kicked by the BN.

Of course maybe segmenting it based on total club entries rather than total club members might work, especially for those larger clubs who have very few members compete.
Quaff came within 6 points of winning last year.  It's been rumored that it was only a couple points this year but until the AHA publishes those numbers, it's just a rumor.

Another idea I have floated is requiring NHC entries to have placed in another AHA sanctioned competition throughout the before they are eligible to enter the NHC comp, but that might require more resources than available.
Not sure how well this would work since they are probably already entering in competitions throughout the year.

At the end of the day, it is not our problem to fix as we do not have the authority to do so. Where we do have control is in our elected Governing Board. If we choose to not hold them accountable (and by accountable I mean bringing this issue to their attention, including suggestions on how to fix it), then it will never change. If they won’t speak for their members, then maybe they do not best represent their regions and need to be replaced by people who better understand their constituents.
I've never considered a GC member to be regional.  I expect the folks in CA as well as the East Coast to take the entire membership into account when making suggestions to the AHA.  I'm sure the next monthly phone call is going to be interesting.

Apologies for the novel, but I love this community and don’t want to see it splinter over something so frivolous.
CHEERS!

Agree with you here!  I'm really not trying to be argumentative here as I believe a fair change is necessary, but felt I needed to address some of your statements above.

RDWHAHB and Brew Strong!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 17, 2015, 07:50:04 PM
BN members (and other National Internet clubs) do not have to deal with this, while local terrestrial clubs gain and lose members due to locale changes.
Not so. Several people, myself included, who have entered under the BN club in the past find a local club and enter under that club, even though they know there's no chance of winning a COTY or Gambrinus.  Could I enter under the BN and go up on stage during the conference?  Sure, but that's not why I and most people enter.
I didn’t intend on this being an “absolute” so please don’t take it as such, but members of a terrestrial club are far more likely to switch clubs when they relocate than those of a national club.
Many cities have multiple clubs, in fact I know people who belong to a local club but still claim the BN in comps. Too busy to attend meetings? Many clubs like mine have started recording their meetings, in fact we even started live streaming our meetings for those who cannot attend.
A lot of people don't live in a city.  some may be far away from a local club or in a rural area where there aren't a lot of homebrewers or homebrewers interested in being in a club to form one.  Also, a lot of people got their homebrewing chops from the BN and have a connection with the members, chatting in the forums or on the live chat during show and meeting outside of the BN broadcasts to brew, attend beer festivals or just hang out.
So you are saying if you stream your meetings and watch them online, you are a club member and can legitimately join as a member of that club?  Sounds like an internet based club.
I addressed most of these points in my original comment, but will again offer my opinion that if you can belong to a local club, give it a shot even if that means you being the catalyst to get one started. Heck rally some of your fellow local BN members if needed. Chatting online or video will never replace the awesomeness of in-person interaction.
Do we have an internet presence, yes? But we aren’t “based” on the Internet. By your loose definition, I doubt any local club would not be classified as an “Internet based club”as I would gather we all use the Internet to communicate. In contrast, we hold regular in person meetings with a good chunk of our members present and most of our members live local to Phoenix. 
I too felt quite puzzled as to why they were given the mic at the banquet to accept their award when the other winners were not.  Yeah I suppose that could have been just something Justin chose to do on his own and the AHA didn’t want to cause a scene, but maybe it’s because they were producing a show.
Do you honestly think Gary would deny the Gambrinus winner time on the microphone?  Even Mark Schoppe was being called out by the crowd to give a speech but he declined.  Obviously, Justin is comfortable addressing a crowd and grabbing the microphone on behalf of the BN Army is second nature to him.
Just my observation and I’m not the only one who brought this up on this forum or that night. I learned a long time ago that sometimes perception is just as important as reality.
So is the BN a club or a business/sponsor? We really have no way of answering that as the AHA has continuously failed to fully address what defines a club.
Even though Justin accepted the award for the BN Army, he has nothing to do with the forming of the BN club.  It was a listener who didn't have access to his own club and setup the BN Army as a sanctioned club.  He even handed off the trophy to one of the winners for him to take back to his table because it was his award.
Yes, I know the story, but Justin is the face of the BN both business and club, otherwise someone else would have grabbed the mic and accepted the award. In mine and many other clubs we elect a board and officers. Again, I don’t see how this answers where the line is drawn between a club and a business.
Not sure if those fix the problem, but they are action rather than inaction. Not too keen on the idea of separating based on club size, but that might be more based on the fact that I am in a larger club and would still get our butts kicked by the BN.

Of course maybe segmenting it based on total club entries rather than total club members might work, especially for those larger clubs who have very few members compete.
Quaff came within 6 points of winning last year.  It's been rumored that it was only a couple points this year but until the AHA publishes those numbers, it's just a rumor.
Yes, QUAFF is also a large club, as is mine and I will be the first to admit that this is a numbers game rather than seeking out the club that produces the best beer. I’m sure QUAFF was real close this year too because they have a numerous amount of great brewers.
Another idea I have floated is requiring NHC entries to have placed in another AHA sanctioned competition throughout the before they are eligible to enter the NHC comp, but that might require more resources than available.
Not sure how well this would work since they are probably already entering in competitions throughout the year.
Assuming those competitions are AHA sanctioned then they would count as a way to earn a ticket into an NHC comp. This was actually a suggestion on a survey created by the AHA a few years back.
At the end of the day, it is not our problem to fix as we do not have the authority to do so. Where we do have control is in our elected Governing Board. If we choose to not hold them accountable (and by accountable I mean bringing this issue to their attention, including suggestions on how to fix it), then it will never change. If they won’t speak for their members, then maybe they do not best represent their regions and need to be replaced by people who better understand their constituents.
I've never considered a GC member to be regional.  I expect the folks in CA as well as the East Coast to take the entire membership into account when making suggestions to the AHA.  I'm sure the next monthly phone call is going to be interesting.
Yeah I would hope that the GC work as a solidified team, but it’s those boots on the ground that can visually relay what they see and hear first hand. I would love to be a fly on the wall for that phone call.
Apologies for the novel, but I love this community and don’t want to see it splinter over something so frivolous.
CHEERS!
Agree with you here!  I'm really not trying to be argumentative here as I believe a fair change is necessary, but felt I needed to address some of your statements above.

RDWHAHB and Brew Strong!
Fortunately NHC did not kill my liver so RDWHAHB is still my mantra. CHEERS!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 17, 2015, 08:02:56 PM
GC members are elected at large, no regions for the elections. We do listen to the member input.

Fill out that survey. If you feel strongly about it, e-mail the AHA and the competition sub-committee.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 17, 2015, 08:16:20 PM
GC members are elected at large, no regions for the elections. We do listen to the member input.

Fill out that survey. If you feel strongly about it, e-mail the AHA and the competition sub-committee.

Jeff,
I know the survey is mostly going to be looking for feedback from San Diego, but will there be one for the membership as a whole, especially if it provides feedback for future conference and competition rules.  I assume the survey you are talking about is only being sent to those who attended San Diego.

Thanks!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 17, 2015, 09:23:10 PM
GC members are elected at large, no regions for the elections. We do listen to the member input.

Fill out that survey. If you feel strongly about it, e-mail the AHA and the competition sub-committee.

Jeff,
I know the survey is mostly going to be looking for feedback from San Diego, but will there be one for the membership as a whole, especially if it provides feedback for future conference and competition rules.  I assume the survey you are talking about is only being sent to those who attended San Diego.

Thanks!
I know in the past, I have gotten one specifically for the competition and future NHC locations, even if I didn't attend NHC so hopefully that is still in effect.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: narvin on June 17, 2015, 10:49:28 PM
Everyone not in the BN could enter as "Anti-BN" next year.  It's like teaming up with the Russians to destroy Hitler!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Hella Hazy on June 17, 2015, 10:51:45 PM
Aww man I want to know what the offensive thing said at BNA10 was now.  Could someone fill me in?

Love the BN.  They may be a little crude for some, but once you talk to them they're really a great group of people.  They aren't like their radio personas at all.  Well, except for JP.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: troybinso on June 18, 2015, 12:01:57 AM
Seems to me that most of the arguments about changing the rules can be summed up like this:

"What can we do to make it so the BN doesn't win next year? "

That kind of seems like poor sportsmanship to me.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 18, 2015, 12:29:45 AM
Seems to me that most of the arguments about changing the rules can be summed up like this:

"What can we do to make it so the BN doesn't win next year?"

That kind of seems like poor sportsmanship to me.

The consensus in this thread, having just skimmed it, seems to be more along the lines of "What can we do to ensure that clubs of all sizes compete on a level playing field?"
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: JT on June 18, 2015, 12:52:46 AM
I'd be in favor of eliminating this goofy award altogether, but I've already stated that.  I don't want to come up with a way to defeat the BN.  This award, as it is currently written, caters to groups with large numbers. 
I still love the BN, and there is really no arguing their reach and influence in the brewing community.  They're a tremendous asset to home brewers, IMO and have helped my own brewing greatly. 
The award still stinks.   

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 18, 2015, 02:12:37 AM
Seems to me that most of the arguments about changing the rules can be summed up like this:

"What can we do to make it so the BN doesn't win next year?"

That kind of seems like poor sportsmanship to me.

The consensus in this thread, having just skimmed it, seems to be more along the lines of "What can we do to ensure that clubs of all sizes compete on a level playing field?"
Agreed Sean.

I believe several of us have said something to the effect of "this isn't about the BN, it's about the AHA".
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 18, 2015, 02:41:16 AM
if before the competition starts you know the COTY is either Club A or Club B...well, how meaningful is that?

Could anyone really argue with giving it to the club that earns the most points in the Final Round?  The ones with the most bling?  A club version of Ninkasi, basically?  As it is now we give out all these medals for best, trophies for best of the best, and then finish with one "biggest" award.  Woo-hoo.


 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 18, 2015, 03:19:48 AM
GC members are elected at large, no regions for the elections. We do listen to the member input.

Fill out that survey. If you feel strongly about it, e-mail the AHA and the competition sub-committee.

Jeff,
I know the survey is mostly going to be looking for feedback from San Diego, but will there be one for the membership as a whole, especially if it provides feedback for future conference and competition rules.  I assume the survey you are talking about is only being sent to those who attended San Diego.

Thanks!
Yes, I was talking about the SD survey. There is usually a where would you want to see the conference question.

There will be more surveys, participate! One can always contact the AHA. Give your input to the staff or the committee chairs.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 18, 2015, 05:00:40 AM
I still submit that the only numbers thst count are how many 1st round placers and 2nd round medalers a club has. Not mere sheer numbers. If its just sheer numbers, that does not speak well of the BJCP. So yes, clearly its about numbers, but how can it matter how many losers a club has? Its simple isnt it? More brewers who placed and medaled wrote down BN. It really doesn't mean anything other than that. The BN isnt to blame, nor is the AHA. The way the COTY is set up defines it as not that big a deal.  Someone ought to do something about it I suppose.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: JT on June 18, 2015, 10:43:53 AM
I still submit that the only numbers thst count are how many 1st round placers and 2nd round medalers a club has. Not mere sheer numbers. If its just sheer numbers, that does not speak well of the BJCP. So yes, clearly its about numbers, but how can it matter how many losers a club has? Its simple isnt it? More brewers who placed and medaled wrote down BN. It really doesn't mean anything other than that. The BN isnt to blame, nor is the AHA. The way the COTY is set up defines it as not that big a deal.  Someone ought to do something about it I suppose.
You're right, but the statistics game definitely applies here.  Put it in terms of a home run contest.  The team with 4000 batters is going to have both more foul balls and more homers than the team with 300.  Since only home runs matter though, they win every time. 

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Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 18, 2015, 11:50:38 AM
I still submit that the only numbers thst count are how many 1st round placers and 2nd round medalers a club has. Not mere sheer numbers. If its just sheer numbers, that does not speak well of the BJCP.

Jim, it's too early here. Helps. Can you explain how this looks bad on the BJCP? Legitimately curious.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 18, 2015, 12:05:13 PM
I still submit that the only numbers thst count are how many 1st round placers and 2nd round medalers a club has. Not mere sheer numbers. If its just sheer numbers, that does not speak well of the BJCP.

Jim, it's too early here. Helps. Can you explain how this looks bad on the BJCP? Legitimately curious.
The judges just judge the beers blind, so ???
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 18, 2015, 12:22:13 PM
I just can't give that much weight to the First Round. That's where COTY is won, right?

Way too many subpar beers make it to the Finals. Everything else announced on Saturday was about the Finals, except for that First Round COTY award.  ::)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: braufessor on June 18, 2015, 12:24:50 PM
I still submit that the only numbers thst count are how many 1st round placers and 2nd round medalers a club has. Not mere sheer numbers. If its just sheer numbers, that does not speak well of the BJCP. So yes, clearly its about numbers, but how can it matter how many losers a club has? Its simple isnt it? More brewers who placed and medaled wrote down BN. It really doesn't mean anything other than that. The BN isnt to blame, nor is the AHA. The way the COTY is set up defines it as not that big a deal.  Someone ought to do something about it I suppose.

As JT pointed out, the number of entries absolutely matters.... just simple probability.  It would be like saying it would not matter if one individual entrant was allowed to have 60 entries, while everyone else had 5-10.  If the person with 60 entries got 4 medals and the person with 10 entries got 3....... you are essentially saying that it is only the 4 he got that matter.  I am simply not a good enough/consistent enough brewer right now to win 3 medals (or 1 for that matter :o) at NHC with 5 entries..... give me 60 entries though, and I am starting to like my chances.

It would be interesting to know the actual numbers of entries as they break down from club to club... That would show if there is, or is not a huge disparity on entry numbers.

I don't know what the answer is...... but, ultimately the problem is pretty simple.  For a long time big clubs, in big metropolitan areas that have the ability to draw from a million+ people won the award.  Along came a club that had the ability to draw from an even bigger pool of people, has more members and gets more people to participate.... so, now they win all the time.  The clubs that are no longer the biggest want the rules changed so that they are the biggest clubs again....  In the end, you are simply swapping one big club with huge reach, for several big clubs with more reach than almost everyone else.  The VAST majority of clubs still have zero chance of winning the award in this structure.

Some combination of like-sized clubs, and/or reward for consistency of entering quality beer seems to be the only way to make this award meaningful and truly competitive from year to year.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 18, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
I guess I just don't get the very existence of the award. Unless they are brewing entries together as a club or choosing as a club which beers to enter what is the point of giving an award to a club based on how many of its members won medals on their own? I don't think people should boo when the winners are announced, they should boo when the category is announced.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brewinhard on June 18, 2015, 01:07:10 PM
I guess I just don't get the very existence of the award. Unless they are brewing entries together as a club or choosing as a club which beers to enter what is the point of giving an award to a club based on how many of its members won medals on their own? I don't think people should boo when the winners are announced, they should boo when the category is announced.

Ha!  I love it!   ;D
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 18, 2015, 01:18:33 PM
I guess I just don't get the very existence of the award. Unless they are brewing entries together as a club or choosing as a club which beers to enter what is the point of giving an award to a club based on how many of its members won medals on their own? I don't think people should boo when the winners are announced, they should boo when the category is announced.

Ha!  I love it!   ;D

+2  I feel the same.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 18, 2015, 02:53:40 PM
I don't know what the answer is...... but, ultimately the problem is pretty simple.  For a long time big clubs, in big metropolitan areas that have the ability to draw from a million+ people won the award.  Along came a club that had the ability to draw from an even bigger pool of people, has more members and gets more people to participate.... so, now they win all the time.  The clubs that are no longer the biggest want the rules changed so that they are the biggest clubs again....  In the end, you are simply swapping one big club with huge reach, for several big clubs with more reach than almost everyone else.  The VAST majority of clubs still have zero chance of winning the award in this structure.

+1

Excluding the BN just means the same group of large clubs go back to battling over a prize only they are able to win and seemingly feel they are only entitled to win. The award is no more exclusionary and no more of a popularity contest. These clubs just want to rig the rules so they go back to winning. It's an extremely elitist perspective and I don't see how the GC can fairly think redesigning the rules specifically to exclude BNA or other internet groups is consistent with the AHA's mission to expand homebrewing.

The underlying implication of changing the rules to exclude the BNA, aside from giving the urban clubs back their COTY award, is the message that the relationships and involvement of people in the BNA is inferior to those who associate with a physical club, no matter how organized or involved that physical club may be. Again I do not agree that creating rules designed to exclude or devalue the participation of some people in the hobby is consistent with the AHA's mission.

Quote
Some combination of like-sized clubs, and/or reward for consistency of entering quality beer seems to be the only way to make this award meaningful and truly competitive from year to year.

I don't know that the award is really meaningful in any way but balancing multiple awards against club sizes is probably the best way to create some fairness that doesn't turn the award into an exclusive game of internet and large urban clubs. It doesn't, by itself at least, do anything to avoid BN winning the largest tier and I can't imagine the large urban clubs not throwing a huge fit over that. So I guess the GC could create an internet club section in which BNA will always win. There's also going to be a fight over where the lines are drawn between tiers. Nobody is going to want to be on the bottom of a tier when they could be on the top of the lower tier.

The probability for gamesmanship still exists here where clubs will inevitably contemplate cutting off membership numbers or rolling people off the roster to cut size to gain a numerical advantage in a lower tier. There has already been talk in this thread of clubs discouraging new brewers from entering NHC to avoid poor numbers against the Gambrinus so the probability of this gamesmanship occurring for COTY is almost certain. Again I can't see how the GC can adopt rules that has such a high probability of making people feel unwelcome in homebrewing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 18, 2015, 02:57:58 PM
The clubs that I know are about training, sharing, education, encouragement, camaraderie, feedback.  Those are things worth cheering for.

...so I'd say an award for best competition club seems perfectly natural.  *shrug*  but I get that its not for some people.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 18, 2015, 03:02:27 PM
The clubs that I know are about training, sharing, education, encouragement, camaraderie, feedback.  Those are things worth cheering for.

...so I'd say an award for best competition club seems perfectly natural.  *shrug*  but I get that its not for some people.
I agree with your first sentence and come to the opposite conclusion.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dbeechum on June 18, 2015, 03:30:56 PM
I agree with your first sentence and come to the opposite conclusion.

Hence the creation of Radegast - to reward and recognize the non-competition side of "Best Club". Also, to publicize what the heck clubs are doing out there - like the Carolina Brewmeisters for raising unbelievable amounts of money for charity or the Falcons (woo) for not imploding after 40 years and still going strong.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 18, 2015, 03:37:51 PM
The clubs that I know are about training, sharing, education, encouragement, camaraderie, feedback.  Those are things worth cheering for.

...so I'd say an award for best competition club seems perfectly natural.  *shrug*  but I get that its not for some people.
I agree with your first sentence and come to the opposite conclusion.

The opposite conclusion being that they aren't worth cheering for?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 18, 2015, 03:47:09 PM
The clubs that I know are about training, sharing, education, encouragement, camaraderie, feedback.  Those are things worth cheering for.

...so I'd say an award for best competition club seems perfectly natural.  *shrug*  but I get that its not for some people.
I agree with your first sentence and come to the opposite conclusion.

The opposite conclusion being that they aren't worth cheering for?
Of course not. The conclusion that it naturally follows that there be a competition award.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 18, 2015, 03:50:09 PM
I wonder if QUAFF or ASH or the Zealots win next year, does all this talk go away and will it return if the BN wins the following year?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 18, 2015, 03:58:50 PM
I wonder if QUAFF or ASH or the Zealots win next year, does all this talk go away and will it return if the BN wins the following year?

some of it would go away.

some if it would not.  I think you know this.  I'll say for like the 5th time:  I don't care who wins; I want the award to be meaningful.

if BN is out, the award is a landslide in favor of QUAFF until they get bored or some other club gets big enough.  Not meaningful either.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Phil_M on June 18, 2015, 04:20:43 PM
Again, I don't have a dog in this fight.

After reading through all of this, splitting the COTY into any sort of category (regional, size, etc) will still favor the larger clubs. I don't see that as a solution, and next thing you know we'll be having this discussion about each category leader instead of BN.

I think the simplest solution would be to leave the rules as-is, but make sure each club award (COTY, Radegast, Gambrinus) has the same sort of "prominence."

I also think that a clearer line needs to be drawn between non-profit clubs and businesses. I realize that the BN club is "separate" from the business, but they certainly aren't like the average club in that area.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 18, 2015, 04:41:55 PM
Something that hasn't been brought up, but since we are talking club size... then you will require the AHA or BJCP to have a formal list of clubs and their membership. Assuming we are somehow weighting club size v number of winners 1st & 2nd round. I know a few brewers that rotate their club affiliation and would explode if you took that option away... plus then it is on the brewer and the club to re-register if they move or transfer. That responsibility will most likely fall on the club and you have a new controversy.

I am a Zealot, and frankly we are small enough that would could easily compete with BN or Quaff based on scores v membership (especially weighted toward 2nd round), but not willing to take on the controversy that would result. Frankly a few very excellent homebrewers carry us in competition.

I personally value the Gambrinus and Radegast over the CoTY. If there was an AHA/BJCP official circuit, similar to the MCAB or the Texas Cup, in the mix, then the Texas Carboys would dominate (the Bradleys... seriously) although they occasionally list the Zealots as their club. Working to manage such club swapping would be overly complicated.

At this point, I have no real issue with the BN winning the CoTY year after year. Good on them. In a few years another very large community will displace them, maybe. Eliminating or redefining the CoTY is another option that should be considered.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: braufessor on June 18, 2015, 04:55:20 PM
The clubs that I know are about training, sharing, education, encouragement, camaraderie, feedback.  Those are things worth cheering for.

...so I'd say an award for best competition club seems perfectly natural.  *shrug*  but I get that its not for some people.

I agree.  There is recognition (Radegast) for the club that does a great job at these many aspects of what a great club might do.

And, NHC IS a competition.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an award for the club that does the best job, overall, in the competition.  However, right now, it is meaningless because of the overwhelming disparity of entries between clubs. 

The more I think about it, the more it seems that going toward a "winning percentage" (top 3 in first/second round) would not be so bad.  Set a minimum number of entrants per club to qualify for the team award. 

Would clubs be selective on which beers they entered..... sure.  But that does not eliminate anyone from entering.  A club could certainly evaluate what it wanted to enter to represent its club.  If someone's beers were not good enough to make the cut, then they could enter them on their own anyway.  NHC is generally a mediocre competition to enter for feedback overall.  If someone is just getting going, their beers are so-so, and their club gives them feedback that they are not up to standard yet..... There is nothing inherently wrong with that.  Take that feedback, learn from the better brewers in your club, up your game and take a shot at representing your club the following year.  In the mean time, enter some of the other 100's of competitions.  Enter NHC solo.  If someone feels a club is too focused on competition and not enough on the other elements..... they might choose to join and support another club.

Competitions are about competing.  NHC, in particular, is about trying to medal and see how your beers do agains the best of the best.  There is nothing wrong with having a team/club aspect of that - in addition to the other awards.  The problem is that the playing field is completely uneven.  "Fixing" the prospect of the BN dominating it really changes nothing at all, other than to let 3-4 other clubs fight it out.  Still a meaningless award that comes back to "most entries has the best chance of winning."
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: slobrewer on June 18, 2015, 05:16:47 PM
The Radegast Club of the Year Award has its place in recognizing and highlighting the valuable contributions of clubs to the community but it's a totally different animal than the NHC Club of the Year.  The Radegast is essentially a beauty pageant and is subjectively evaluated by a panel of judges from the AHA Governing Committee.

The NHC COTY is based on blind judging of the beers a club brews.  Much like the overall medal race at the Olympics it's naturally going to be biased towards the organizations with the largest membership and resources that they want to spend towards winning.  Jamaica isn't going to win the Winter Olympics but they don't boo Russia or Norway at the closing ceremony.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 18, 2015, 05:30:25 PM
Jamaica isn't going to win the Winter Olympics but they don't boo Russia or Norway at the closing ceremony.

They might if Russia and Norway were allowed to enter more athletes in each event.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 18, 2015, 05:55:02 PM
I still submit that the only numbers thst count are how many 1st round placers and 2nd round medalers a club has. Not mere sheer numbers. If its just sheer numbers, that does not speak well of the BJCP.

Jim, it's too early here. Helps. Can you explain how this looks bad on the BJCP? Legitimately curious.
Because if sheer mass of random mediocre entries equates to a sure thing win, then the judges must not judging but just randomly advancing and medaling beers. I doubt that. I'm confident that the judges are selecting great beer, therefore it doesn't matter how many losers a club submitted
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 18, 2015, 05:58:12 PM
Jamaica isn't going to win the Winter Olympics but they don't boo Russia or Norway at the closing ceremony.

They might if Russia and Norway were allowed to enter more athletes in each event.
Actually, Russia and Norway probably do get to enter more athletes in the event, but it's not because they have more people, rather it's that they have more athletes that qualify for the event. In comparison, this would be similar to requiring homebrewers to qualify to enter beer in NHC through winning other competitions. 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 18, 2015, 06:04:19 PM
I still submit that the only numbers thst count are how many 1st round placers and 2nd round medalers a club has. Not mere sheer numbers. If its just sheer numbers, that does not speak well of the BJCP.

Jim, it's too early here. Helps. Can you explain how this looks bad on the BJCP? Legitimately curious.
Because if sheer mass of random mediocre entries equates to a sure thing win, then the judges must not judging but just randomly advancing and medaling beers. I doubt that. I'm confident that the judges are selecting great beer, therefore it doesn't matter how many losers a club submitted
I agree with not making lower scoring beers a "penalty" as it will discourage newer brewers from entering in fear of harming their club. Where volume helps a club is the huge number of judging sites and categories they are able to cover. Granted there is a 15 point cap per category, but keep in mind that even though the club is capped, the individual still gets points/medal which essentially blocks any other club from earning those points.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 18, 2015, 06:19:28 PM
Not that anyone asked, but if we gave COTY to the club with the most Final Round points, it'd be:

2015:  Austin Zealots (5 medals, 20 pts). Runner Up is St Paul, 4 medals and 18 pts.
2014:  WHO (4 medals, 20 pts).  Runner up is Minnesota HBA, 3 medals and 16 pts. 

side note:  I hope they manage to keep the entry limit at 5 or higher, for Ninkasi's sake.

if anyone's got a free afternoon, I'd be curious which other clubs would have won, post Gordon Strong/St Paul 3-peat.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 18, 2015, 06:21:44 PM
Actually, Russia and Norway probably do get to enter more athletes in the event, but it's not because they have more people, rather it's that they have more athletes that qualify for the event.

Sure, they have larger teams due to increased resources and such, but they don't accrue medal points for the athletes who don't actually compete in the events. The current COTY rules would be like if countries got a bronze for every athlete on the team, regardless of who was selected for the Games… Actually taking first in a race wouldn't win you the event if you were a small country.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Phil_M on June 18, 2015, 06:22:04 PM
In comparison, this would be similar to requiring homebrewers to qualify to enter beer in NHC through winning other competitions.

The issue there is you then penalize those who can't/won't enter another competition, even if they aren't affiliated with a club at all. It's entirely possible a home brewer is only brewing to the NHC schedule, and may not be able to fit brewing to another comp schedule into the mix.

I would be flatly against any regular entry rule changes to try and fix a club problem.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 19, 2015, 03:14:45 AM
So, apparently I didn't realize that clubs get points toward COTY for every entry submitted regardless of score.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jeffy on June 19, 2015, 11:48:35 AM
So, apparently I didn't realize that clubs get points toward COTY for every entry submitted regardless of score.

So is this your way of saying that it takes a good beer to win a medal, no matter how many are entered?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: S. cerevisiae on June 19, 2015, 11:55:29 AM
The NHC COTY is based on blind judging of the beers a club brews.

You mean that it is based on something that is as silly as brewing as a competitive sport.  This thread has only strengthened my belief that the National Homebrew Conference and the National Homebrew Competition need to be separate events like the Craft Brewers Conference and the Great American Beer Festival.  The National Homebrew Competition is too divisive.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 19, 2015, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: slobrewer pink=topic=23504.msg300425#msg300425 date=1434647807
The NHC COTY is based on blind judging of the beers a club brews.

You mean that it is based on something that is as silly as brewing as a competitive sport.  This thread has only strengthened my belief that the National Homebrew Conference and the National Homebrew Competition need to be separate events like the Craft Brewers Conference and the Great American Beer Festival.  The National Homebrew Competition is too divisive.

Would be interested in your suggestions on how to get 200 judges of high avg rank together without the conference. And if you don't think it is important to entrants that they get good judges, you are fooling yourself.

Also, your example is poor. The CBC holds the World Beer Cup every other year.

I think not having a competition to determine the best beers is "silly" and I'm not exactly alone am I? If you're not interested in it, if the concept is so silly to you, why waste your time in this thread?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 19, 2015, 01:36:41 PM
You mean that it is based on something that is as silly as brewing as a competitive sport.  This thread has only strengthened my belief that the National Homebrew Conference and the National Homebrew Competition need to be separate events like the Craft Brewers Conference and the Great American Beer Festival.  The National Homebrew Competition is too divisive.

Is it really that divisive? This thread is about the least important award in the whole competition and the thread has been extremely civil over a necessarily competitive subject. I've seen fellow lawyers have more vicious discussions over the use of one or two spaces after the end of a sentence.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: homebrewdad7 on June 19, 2015, 04:02:21 PM
Not a lawyer, but two spaces is where it's at, no matter what HTML may have taught us.

Also: Oxford comma for life.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 19, 2015, 04:06:21 PM
So, apparently I didn't realize that clubs get points toward COTY for every entry submitted regardless of score.

So is this your way of saying that it takes a good beer to win a medal, no matter how many are entered?
That's what I was thinking but then it seemed like someone indicated that total entries counted. I'm way confused I guess.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 19, 2015, 04:13:29 PM

Not a lawyer, but two spaces is where it's at, no matter what HTML may have taught us.

Also: Oxford comma for life.
From typing class I was told that two spaces after a period should have died out after the creation of fonts with proportional spacing. Characters in monospaced fonts have identical widths, so a " W " takes the same amount of space as a " . " . The two spaces after period rule was intended to make reading comprehension easier and dates back to the type writer. Moveable type in printing had proportional spacing, but this wasn't possible with early typewriters.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 19, 2015, 04:36:45 PM

Not a lawyer, but two spaces is where it's at, no matter what HTML may have taught us.

Also: Oxford comma for life.
From typing class I was told that two spaces after a period should have died out after the creation of fonts with proportional spacing. Characters in monospaced fonts have identical widths, so a " W " takes the same amount of space as a " . " . The two spaces after period rule was intended to make reading comprehension easier and dates back to the type writer. Moveable type in printing had proportional spacing, but this wasn't possible with early typewriters.
Good to know
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: homebrewdad7 on June 19, 2015, 04:43:49 PM
Two spaces still looks neater on printed pages. 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 19, 2015, 04:55:19 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.

From the rules page.
Homebrew Club of the Year will be awarded to the club that accumulates the most total points in all categories of beer, mead and cider in the First and Final Rounds. In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place. In the First Round, a club may only receive points for a maximum of three awards per category, the highest three awards shall be counted, not to exceed a 12-point maximum. For your club to receive points the club must be registered with the AHA and you must have included the club name when you registered your entries online. Please check the AHA Club Directory to be sure your club’s AHA registration is up to date.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 19, 2015, 04:58:16 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.

From the rules page.
Homebrew Club of the Year will be awarded to the club that accumulates the most total points in all categories of beer, mead and cider in the First and Final Rounds. In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place. In the First Round, a club may only receive points for a maximum of three awards per category, the highest three awards shall be counted, not to exceed a 12-point maximum. For your club to receive points the club must be registered with the AHA and you must have included the club name when you registered your entries online. Please check the AHA Club Directory to be sure your club’s AHA registration is up to date.

That seems like a logical, fair place to start.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 19, 2015, 05:03:17 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.

From the rules page.
Homebrew Club of the Year will be awarded to the club that accumulates the most total points in all categories of beer, mead and cider in the First and Final Rounds. In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place. In the First Round, a club may only receive points for a maximum of three awards per category, the highest three awards shall be counted, not to exceed a 12-point maximum. For your club to receive points the club must be registered with the AHA and you must have included the club name when you registered your entries online. Please check the AHA Club Directory to be sure your club’s AHA registration is up to date.

That seems like a logical, fair place to start.
I had to go to the basement and check my memory. 8 first round ribbons to 2 medals.
The medals get mentioned in conversations, the ribbons not so much.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 19, 2015, 05:08:46 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.
To me it seems that a 'circuit' type system would make more sense (a club that consistently has award winning brewers in multiple comps would seem to be more 'deserving' than a club that targets one comp), although I suppose that could be gamed the same way.  Our state circuit looks like it may fall victim to that sort of thing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 19, 2015, 05:30:40 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.

From the rules page.
Homebrew Club of the Year will be awarded to the club that accumulates the most total points in all categories of beer, mead and cider in the First and Final Rounds. In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place. In the First Round, a club may only receive points for a maximum of three awards per category, the highest three awards shall be counted, not to exceed a 12-point maximum. For your club to receive points the club must be registered with the AHA and you must have included the club name when you registered your entries online. Please check the AHA Club Directory to be sure your club’s AHA registration is up to date.

That seems like a logical, fair place to start.
I had to go to the basement and check my memory. 8 first round ribbons to 2 medals.
The medals get mentioned in conversations, the ribbons not so much.

yeah.  I am near universally confident the medal winners are good.  I don't have the same feeling about all the first round ribbons.  A few categories sometimes don't even have 3 entries. I haven't yet seen a first round region that approaches the quality of a decent sized regional comp like KCBM or Hoppy Halloween.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jeffy on June 19, 2015, 05:49:19 PM
I'm with Jeff on this one, rewarding the final round winners more heavily than the first round.  Over 20 years I have had many wins in the first round, but only 2 final round medals.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 19, 2015, 06:07:22 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.
To me it seems that a 'circuit' type system would make more sense (a club that consistently has award winning brewers in multiple comps would seem to be more 'deserving' than a club that targets one comp), although I suppose that could be gamed the same way.  Our state circuit looks like it may fall victim to that sort of thing.
Only problem is I don't think any of the clubs that win at NHC are just targeting that comp.  I see the Brewing Network entered as a club in most of the competitions I enter.  And most of these comps pull entries from all around the country (KCBM, MidWinter, Mashout, etc.).   So if the BN enters comps all year and wins, will the complaining stop if the win COTY again...doubt it.

P.S. Notice the double space after each period  8)
 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 19, 2015, 06:11:21 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.

So something like 3 pts for gold, 2 pts for silver and 1 pt for bronze in the first round?  I think that idea has merit.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 19, 2015, 06:43:34 PM
I think a percentage based score would be handy for COTY. It would level the playing field and (if a club were inclined) encourage better beers to be entered into the competition. Would anyone still be able to enter any beer they have on hand? Yes. For this club award it would really be up to the clubs to organize to improve that percentage if they were inclined. I'm sure most wouldn't be going for the COTY award in that manner but there would certainly be some. I think that would be fine as it's a club award club's should have a say in how they would want to compete.

With all that said I think most club's would just let the cops fall where they will.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mike89t on June 19, 2015, 06:45:34 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.

So something like 3 pts for gold, 2 pts for silver and 1 pt for bronze in the first round?  I think that idea has merit.

That would seem to make more sense.  Placing more emphasis on the final round.  I would even say 9 pts for gold 6 for silver and 3 for bronze in the final round.

Then I would change the name of the award from COTY to the "Poros Award" (Named after the god of Plenty) to align with all of the other award names.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 19, 2015, 07:01:04 PM
Back on topic. One way to change the rules is to make the first round points per ribbon worth less than the second round medal. Anyone here that values, no, lusts after a second round medal? I can say that it is easier to ribbon in the first round than medal in the second round. I always sctratched my head at the current point set up.
To me it seems that a 'circuit' type system would make more sense (a club that consistently has award winning brewers in multiple comps would seem to be more 'deserving' than a club that targets one comp), although I suppose that could be gamed the same way.  Our state circuit looks like it may fall victim to that sort of thing.
Only problem is I don't think any of the clubs that win at NHC are just targeting that comp.  I see the Brewing Network entered as a club in most of the competitions I enter.  And most of these comps pull entries from all around the country (KCBM, MidWinter, Mashout, etc.).   So if the BN enters comps all year and wins, will the complaining stop if the win COTY again...doubt it.

P.S. Notice the double space after each period  8)
This is from memory.

The St. Paul club is not a big one. It has some really good brewers and outstanding mead makers. They liked to compete and targeted QUAFF. They won 3 years in a row.

DOZE tried hard to win it for a number of years. Even Tasty McDole entered as DOZE, not BN, to help them win, and they did win one year. Those guys were really geeked when they got on stage.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ranchovillabrew on June 19, 2015, 07:06:39 PM
How about shifting it to primarily scorebased? Average score per beer? Plus points for ribbons  (number of beers  into 2nd round ) then score again and medals for round 2. I think the score component would help smaller clubs. The ribbon and  medal  count would  help  the larger clubs.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: macbrews on June 19, 2015, 07:10:41 PM
FWIW, according the NHC Gambrinus page, BN was second to the last in points per entry at 0.0391 (PPE).  Quaff was last at 0.030. 

I question the data a bit because if you back into the total entries (Total Points/PPE = Total entries) the total entries for BN = 4,347 and Quaff = 5400 - more than the total entries of the competition if you maximize each 1st round site at 750 (12X750 = 9000).

Maybe someone could check my math......
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 19, 2015, 07:20:37 PM
Despite the rules saying this: "For your club to receive points the club must be registered with the AHA and you must have included the club name when you registered your entries online," I know that people are allowed to add their club AFTER first round judging has been completed. Granted I realize people miss this box (it's even happened in my club), but I also feel the AHA can do a better job with the form by making this a required section and offering a "I am not affiliated with a club" option.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: jvoeltz on June 19, 2015, 08:13:52 PM
FWIW, according the NHC Gambrinus page, BN was second to the last in points per entry at 0.0391 (PPE).  Quaff was last at 0.030. 

I question the data a bit because if you back into the total entries (Total Points/PPE = Total entries) the total entries for BN = 4,347 and Quaff = 5400 - more than the total entries of the competition if you maximize each 1st round site at 750 (12X750 = 9000).

Maybe someone could check my math......

It's final round points / total first round entries

So, BN had ~256 first round entries.

QUAFF appears to have had 334 this year....

Interesting...
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 19, 2015, 10:15:48 PM
So now BN actually had a higher success rate than QUAFF?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: narvin on June 19, 2015, 11:00:01 PM
Quaff is that big?  Or maybe with the conference in San Diego, they had everyone enter, even people who are not generally competition people.

I will say that there should probably be a minimum number of entries for a club to enforce statisticial significance of the award.  Being that judging is such a crapshoot and all...
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 20, 2015, 02:14:43 AM

It's final round points / total first round entries

So, BN had ~256 first round entries.

QUAFF appears to have had 334 this year....

Interesting...

I think that may be off. Check my math here:

QUAFF: 1 silver X 4 points, 2 Bronze x 2 points = 8 Final Round points

Too lazy to type out the algebra (hey I used Algebra today) but I came up with 266 entries:

8/266 = 0.300

BN: 1 Gold X 6 Points, 1 Silver X 4 Points = 10 Final Round Points

Magic Algebra = 256 Entries

10/256 = 0.0391 (rounded up)

So QUAFF did enter 10 more total entries which is still more, but also a much closer volume, especially with only an 8 point COTY difference.

For comparison, I calculated the Zealots too.

2 Gold x 6 Points, 1 Silver x 4 Points, 2 Bronze x 2 Points = 20 Final Round Points

Magic Algebra = 65 Total Entries

20/65 = 0.3077 (Rounded Up)

Which is a 78 point difference from QUAFF

Meaning the Zealots can brew some awesome beer, they just need to clone a couple of their brewers if they want to have enough entries to beat the BN or QUAFF.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 20, 2015, 02:59:12 AM
2 Gold x 6 Points, 1 Silver x 4 Points, 2 Bronze x 2 Points = 20 Final Round Points
Magic Algebra = 65 Total Entries

Now how can that not be the "NHC Champion Club" or whatever we're going to call it? Most final round points, tiebreaker is final round points per entry, and from there you go to the pie-eating contest or whatever it is they do for Ninkasi now.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 20, 2015, 03:06:09 AM
2 Gold x 6 Points, 1 Silver x 4 Points, 2 Bronze x 2 Points = 20 Final Round Points
Magic Algebra = 65 Total Entries

Now how can that not be the "NHC Champion Club" or whatever we're going to call it? Most final round points, tiebreaker is final round points per entry, and from there you go to the pie-eating contest or whatever it is they do for Ninkasi now.
Texas death cage match.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: guido on June 20, 2015, 03:34:21 AM
2 Gold x 6 Points, 1 Silver x 4 Points, 2 Bronze x 2 Points = 20 Final Round Points
Magic Algebra = 65 Total Entries

Now how can that not be the "NHC Champion Club" or whatever we're going to call it? Most final round points, tiebreaker is final round points per entry, and from there you go to the pie-eating contest or whatever it is they do for Ninkasi now.
Texas death cage match.

At this point, it's probably the only fair way to resolve it. The PPV $ could probably finance the next conference.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 20, 2015, 04:45:34 AM
Wonder why they chose to include first round points in COTY? Maybe to encourage participation back when the competition was still growing. If you think about it, by only counting the final round, the first round kind of acts as a pre-qualification round as we discussed with a AHA/NHC circuit. Plus theoretically, it could remove the cries of volume over quality, since only quality beers would advance and medal. Yes, I know judging is subjective and that more entries means more potential to win a category, but on a much smaller scale. Has this option been discussed in the past and if so, were there extreme cons that would cause it not to be an improvement over the current format?
Title: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ajk on June 20, 2015, 09:44:23 AM
In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place.
Now that is weird and something I did not know. I only have one final round medal and don't expect to get another at the rate this hobby's growing, but I'd definitely be in favor of making the final round medals worth more points.
That said, I think the real solution is to bestow more stature and standing on the Radegast award. It's a fairly new award, so I understand why it isn't that way now.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 20, 2015, 12:52:57 PM
2 Gold x 6 Points, 1 Silver x 4 Points, 2 Bronze x 2 Points = 20 Final Round Points
Magic Algebra = 65 Total Entries

Now how can that not be the "NHC Champion Club" or whatever we're going to call it? Most final round points, tiebreaker is final round points per entry, and from there you go to the pie-eating contest or whatever it is they do for Ninkasi now.

Would still like to see an objection/ reasoning why this shouldn't be the criteria. 
Anyone?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 21, 2015, 12:55:31 AM
In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place.
Now that is weird and something I did not know. I only have one final round medal and don't expect to get another at the rate this hobby's growing, but I'd definitely be in favor of making the final round medals worth more points.
That said, I think the real solution is to bestow more stature and standing on the Radegast award. It's a fairly new award, so I understand why it isn't that way now.
Apples and oranges. One is a competition based award the other is AHA bestowed.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: gmac on June 21, 2015, 03:15:54 AM
I started reading this and then I got bored and jumped 14 pages ahead and guess what...still no resolution.

I will do whatever Denny says.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 21, 2015, 12:57:37 PM
In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place.
Now that is weird and something I did not know. I only have one final round medal and don't expect to get another at the rate this hobby's growing, but I'd definitely be in favor of making the final round medals worth more points.
That said, I think the real solution is to bestow more stature and standing on the Radegast award. It's a fairly new award, so I understand why it isn't that way now.
Apples and oranges. One is a competition based award the other is AHA bestowed.
The Radegast goes through a rating process where the entries are judged. It is a little softer than judging beer, but it is judged.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 21, 2015, 01:34:11 PM
In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place.
Now that is weird and something I did not know. I only have one final round medal and don't expect to get another at the rate this hobby's growing, but I'd definitely be in favor of making the final round medals worth more points.
That said, I think the real solution is to bestow more stature and standing on the Radegast award. It's a fairly new award, so I understand why it isn't that way now.
Apples and oranges. One is a competition based award the other is AHA bestowed.
The Radegast goes through a rating process where the entries are judged. It is a little softer than judging beer, but it is judged.
Yes, but it's not based on the beer competition (NHC). 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 21, 2015, 01:51:03 PM
In both the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place.
Now that is weird and something I did not know. I only have one final round medal and don't expect to get another at the rate this hobby's growing, but I'd definitely be in favor of making the final round medals worth more points.
That said, I think the real solution is to bestow more stature and standing on the Radegast award. It's a fairly new award, so I understand why it isn't that way now.
Apples and oranges. One is a competition based award the other is AHA bestowed.
The Radegast goes through a rating process where the entries are judged. It is a little softer than judging beer, but it is judged.
Yes, but it's not based on the beer competition (NHC).
That is correct, Dan.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dbeechum on June 22, 2015, 04:50:31 AM
Yes, but it's not based on the beer competition (NHC).

And kinda the point too, unless we can figure out how to make a beer competition reflect the meaning of the Radegast.

ETA - I am honestly annoyed at the notion of the Radegast being a "beauty pageant" award. The clubs who enter are working hard throughout the year and in my mind are doing a hell of a lot more for the hobby than any national beer competition. The Carolina Brewmeisters are kicking serious ass in the name of homebrewing. The Falcons are pretty damn awesome [Course, I may not be entirely fair minded about it.] I can't wait to wade through the reports, now that I'm allowed, to pull together tips and tricks for everyone's clubs.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 22, 2015, 11:58:08 AM
Yes, but it's not based on the beer competition (NHC).

And kinda the point too, unless we can figure out how to make a beer competition reflect the meaning of the Radegast.

ETA - I am honestly annoyed at the notion of the Radegast being a "beauty pageant" award. The clubs who enter are working hard throughout the year and in my mind are doing a hell of a lot more for the hobby than any national beer competition. The Carolina Brewmeisters are kicking serious ass in the name of homebrewing. The Falcons are pretty damn awesome [Course, I may not be entirely fair minded about it.] I can't wait to wade through the reports, now that I'm allowed, to pull together tips and tricks for everyone's clubs.

I didn't mean to imply it was not a great award.  I just meant it is apples to oranges with the COTY award.  I don't see why there would be any comparison between the two since they are totally different context.  One is based on a competition and the other is not.  It's just a head scratcher when I see people actually draw a line between the two awards...
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: denny on June 23, 2015, 04:16:13 PM
Just heard that Justin will be addressing this controversy on the Session tonight at 6.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 23, 2015, 05:03:28 PM
Just heard that Justin will be addressing this controversy on the Session tonight at 6.
It was actually last night, but the podcast should be posted soon.  He addressed it within the first 30 minutes.

I think one of his biggest concerns is most equate the BN Club with the Brewing Network, and they are not the same.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 23, 2015, 05:11:09 PM
It was actually last night, but the podcast should be posted soon.  He addressed it within the first 30 minutes.

I think one of his biggest concerns is most equate the BN Club with the Brewing Network, and they are not the same.
I think Justin is the reason people do that. He is the face of both of them so to most they are one in the same. Maybe they should consider having an actual elected board for the BN club like most other homebrew clubs (not sure if that was addressed as I did not hear the live show).
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 23, 2015, 05:16:39 PM
It was actually last night, but the podcast should be posted soon.  He addressed it within the first 30 minutes.

I think one of his biggest concerns is most equate the BN Club with the Brewing Network, and they are not the same.
I think Justin is the reason people do that. He is the face of both of them so to most they are one in the same. Maybe they should consider having an actual elected board for the BN club like most other homebrew clubs (not sure if that was addressed as I did not hear the live show).

He did mention one of the options next year was not go up on stage to accept the award.  He also said other options were to regionalize (sp) the club into East/West, 4 regions, 82 regions etc.  His final option to the club was not enter under the BN club next year.

If the last 2 are taken, it bascially becomes the Quaff club of the year award.  While deserving for brewing great beer, it doesn't really address the issue.  I know they only missed by 8 points this year, but I wonder if the AHA would release how many entries total under each club there were?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 23, 2015, 06:12:51 PM
I know they only missed by 8 points this year, but I wonder if the AHA would release how many entries total under each club there were?

They haven't released that number directly, but oldstoneface did the math one page back. 256 entries for the BN and 266 for QUAFF.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 23, 2015, 06:17:19 PM
Its getting hard to find an unbruised spot to beat on this poor horse. Speaking only for myself, when I write BN Army on an entry sheet I am "representing" them about on the same level that a "support the troops" bumper sticker makes me a combat vet. Its 100% tongue in cheek, especially when it comes to me bragging that my club won COTY. Its pretty obvious that it has run its course. Regardless of rules or what Justin says, I doubt I'll write BN Army as my club anymore. It was fun, its not anymore.

Maybe it will get me off my laz y hump and I'll join a club. Maybe not. Either way, the hobby of home brewing rocks and COTY or the BN Army is merely a footnote in the grand scheme of things. If that...
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 23, 2015, 07:18:07 PM
They are having a discussion about this over on the BN forums:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=297796#p297796

Someone from QUAFF even discusses that they would be the obvious winner if the BN were to disband, but the best comment IMHO is the person who states that the BN should not change anything as it the AHA's issue, not their's, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm still puzzled on how the BN separates the business from the club as I still don't think they have defined that line. Not that they have to, but since Justin seems to want to emphasize a separation between the 2, then I am curious how they go about doing that.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 23, 2015, 07:28:38 PM
They are having a discussion about this over on the BN forums:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=297796#p297796

Someone from QUAFF even discusses that they would be the obvious winner if the BN were to disband, but the best comment IMHO is the person who states that the BN should not change anything as it the AHA's issue, not their's, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm still puzzled on how the BN separates the business from the club as I still don't think they have defined that line. Not that they have to, but since Justin seems to want to emphasize a separation between the 2, then I am curious how they go about doing that.

Other than the use of the BN forum as a rally point I wasn't aware the BN business had any involvement in the organization of participants in competitions.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 23, 2015, 07:29:36 PM

They are having a discussion about this over on the BN forums:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=297796#p297796

Someone from QUAFF even discusses that they would be the obvious winner if the BN were to disband, but the best comment IMHO is the person who states that the BN should not change anything as it the AHA's issue, not their's, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm still puzzled on how the BN separates the business from the club as I still don't think they have defined that line. Not that they have to, but since Justin seems to want to emphasize a separation between the 2, then I am curious how they go about doing that.

Other than the use of the BN forum as a rally point I wasn't aware the BN business had any involvement in the organization of participants in competitions.

It doesn't.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 23, 2015, 07:36:16 PM
Other than the use of the BN forum as a rally point I wasn't aware the BN business had any involvement in the organization of participants in competitions.
I think that is where the confusion exists. Quote from the BN forum: "How can they say this isn't a club? We get information monthly and share it, which is most than other clubs do. We meet on the forum and chat rooms."

Isn't all of that info created by BN the business and not BN the homebrew club?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 23, 2015, 07:38:46 PM

They are having a discussion about this over on the BN forums:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=297796#p297796

Someone from QUAFF even discusses that they would be the obvious winner if the BN were to disband, but the best comment IMHO is the person who states that the BN should not change anything as it the AHA's issue, not their's, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm still puzzled on how the BN separates the business from the club as I still don't think they have defined that line. Not that they have to, but since Justin seems to want to emphasize a separation between the 2, then I am curious how they go about doing that.

Other than the use of the BN forum as a rally point I wasn't aware the BN business had any involvement in the organization of participants in competitions.

It doesn't.
Right, but people like to make connections.  If they change the name to BNArmy and no one from the Brewing Network enters, accepts, or has anything to do with the comp, would it be acceptable?

What if each club loses 1 COTY point for every entry entered under their club that didn't medal?

Other than the use of the BN forum as a rally point I wasn't aware the BN business had any involvement in the organization of participants in competitions.
I think that is where the confusion exists. Quote from the BN forum: "How can they say this isn't a club? We get information monthly and share it, which is most than other clubs do. We meet on the forum and chat rooms."

Isn't all of that info created by BN the business and not BN the homebrew club?
Actually, Justin, JP and the rest have very little interaction on the forum and chat (I know JP just posted the thread mentioned above at Justin's request).  The forum moderators are several of us and our patron saint "Code".  The chat is monitored during the shows just to make sure bottom-feeding trolls don't ruin it for everyone, but the listeners in the chat let someone know when they've gone too far.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 23, 2015, 07:48:42 PM
Actually, Justin, JP and the rest have very little interaction on the forum and chat (I know JP just posted the thread mentioned above at Justin's request).  The forum moderators are several of us and our patron saint "Code".  The chat is monitored during the shows just to make sure bottom-feeding trolls don't ruin it for everyone, but the listeners in the chat let someone know when they've gone too far.
I guess a better question is the forum part of the club or part of the business? I'm not trying to split hairs here, it's just that since Justin insists the 2 entities are separate, I'm just trying to determine if there is a dividing line that users can easily identify.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 23, 2015, 07:49:03 PM
1.  This just seems like sour grapes.
2.  Relax, it's not that big of a deal.
3.  If it is that big of a deal then RDWHAHB.
4.  If it is that big of a deal write the Governing Committee.
5.  It really isn't a big deal.
6.  Haters gonna hate. 

I'm proud to call the BN my club but like Jim, I say it kind of tongue-in-cheek.  That said, I'm probably a little biased.  Reading this thread has really been a bummer.  At first it really wrecked my worldview of the homebrewing culture/community then I realized letting some sore losers that boo people affect my view of the homebrewing community is just as silly as letting some bigots standing in line at BNA 10 affect my. view of the BN.  The BN has been one of the biggest factors in improving my brewing skills.  The AHA Forum and the awesome people on here is the other.  While this thread  has been "civil" there is an undercurrent of anti-BN sentiment.  If it really makes some one so unhappy then write the Governing Committee.  Otherwise let's argue about the quality of dry vs. liquid yeast (liquid is better) or whether or not to cold crash a starter or pitch at high Krausen.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 23, 2015, 07:54:04 PM

Regardless of rules or what Justin says, I doubt I'll write BN Army as my club anymore. It was fun, its not anymore.

Don't let them get you down Jim,  I'm more inclined to list the BN now.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 23, 2015, 08:18:21 PM
1.  This just seems like sour grapes.
2.  Relax, it's not that big of a deal.
3.  If it is that big of a deal then RDWHAHB.
4.  If it is that big of a deal write the Governing Committee.
5.  It really isn't a big deal.
6.  Haters gonna hate. 

I'm proud to call the BN my club but like Jim, I say it kind of tongue-in-cheek.  That said, I'm probably a little biased.  Reading this thread has really been a bummer.  At first it really wrecked my worldview of the homebrewing culture/community then I realized letting some sore losers that boo people affect my view of the homebrewing community is just as silly as letting some bigots standing in line at BNA 10 affect my. view of the BN.  The BN has been one of the biggest factors in improving my brewing skills.  The AHA Forum and the awesome people on here is the other.  While this thread  has been "civil" there is an undercurrent of anti-BN sentiment.  If it really makes some one so unhappy then write the Governing Committee.  Otherwise let's argue about the quality of dry vs. liquid yeast (liquid is better) or whether or not to cold crash a starter or pitch at high Krausen.
Send me a forum message, I'm on the GC, but not on the competition committee.

Earlier I said that they won under the published rules of the competition, no boos from me. If this is perceived as a problem, well let's make a course correction. I will suggest emphasizing medals in the finals over ribbons in the first round as something the Commitee should consider.

How about clubs getting extra points for a member that is Homebrewer of the Year or the Ninkasi winner? Those winners have their club affiliation listed in their win press sheets. Should that be considered?

The weighting by entries looked attractive at first, but then the first round entries by QUAAF and BN were almost equal.

General Comment on the national Homebrewers Competition


There has been little if any discussion on how the Competition was run this year in this thread.
There were no comments in the Member's Meeting concerning the Competition this year, as opposed to the lively discussion the two previous years.

The COTY is where there is dissatisfaction now.

If rules changes are made, and the BN wins again, I will stand and applaud.



Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 23, 2015, 08:33:08 PM
Otherwise let's argue about the quality of dry vs. liquid yeast (liquid is better)

BOO!!! BOO!!! BOO!!  Dry is where it's at!  ;)


Regardless of rules or what Justin says, I doubt I'll write BN Army as my club anymore. It was fun, its not anymore.

Don't let them get you down Jim,  I'm more inclined to list the BN now.
I beginning to think the same thing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 23, 2015, 08:40:19 PM

Send me a forum message, I'm on the GC, but not on the competition committee.


Thank you Jeff.  Message sent.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 23, 2015, 09:03:26 PM
While this thread  has been "civil" there is an undercurrent of anti-BN sentiment.

Anti-BN sentiment, or anti-BN Club sentiment? ;D

How about clubs getting extra points for a member that is Homebrewer of the Year or the Ninkasi winner? Those winners have their club affiliation listed in their win press sheets. Should that be considered?

The weighting by entries looked attractive at first, but then the first round entries by QUAAF and BN were almost equal.

I would actually argue that Ninkasi, at least, should be neutral or even negatively weighted for COTY. Having a Ninkasi-level brewer (or mazer, as often as not) in your club already gives you a big leg up. Whatever the rebalancing of the rules, assuming there is one, it should ensure that COTY isn't just a competition between the Ninkasi and Gambrinus winners. How about simply percentage of first-round entries that advance? I don't know that we have those numbers to see who would have won, but it completely eliminates the size bias.

Assuming that COTY were final-round points only, the results would look like:


And so on. The Ninkasi and Gambrinus winners are first and third, which makes sense. Take out the Ninkasi points and the Zealots drop into a tie with QUAFF. Just one way it could be done.

ETA: My personal favorite suggestion is still to rename Gambrinus to COTY, get rid of the current award, and be done with it.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: lewybrewing on June 23, 2015, 09:03:41 PM
First off, I am a Member of Quaff (currently enter comps as Quaff 2015+) and a Member of the BN (monthly donor/entered under the BN at NHC 2010-14)

The argument of the BN being a club or not isn't the issue.  It is a club according to the AHA.  Now, should the rules be changed?  Let's think about that.  If the AHA changes the rules forcing the BN to "Not" win next year what would that prove?  That a small group of complainers won?  The new traditional club that wins COTY will always hold the stigma that it was given away to them or that they shouldn't hold a title that belongs to the BN.  Then, more drama. 

This is a major sticking point that the AHA needs to figure out and figure out quickly before the members get so upset at the GB (like I heard they did last week at NHC governing meeting) 

Now lets look at the view some homebrewers have with the BN vs a traditional club like QUAFF.  On ProNight I wore a BN branded hat.  I had 10-12 comments about it.  Mostly bad joke'ish  (from non-BN folks)  Now the next day on Club Night I sported a QUAFF button up, I had more people come up and talk to me about clubs and San Diego in general.  The tone was 180° vs when I was wearing the BN gear.  After that, although a member of both clubs, I will not wear BN items again in a homebrew environment.  Simple as that. 

To me it seems that the active member(s) in a lot of the traditional clubs do not like the BN as a whole. Now this could be for a variety of reasons, but now these people are gaining steam.  This is now starting to affect the Brewing Network.  Not the BN Club, the Brewing Network which is a for profit enterprise.  Like I stated above, I will not wear BN apparel anymore.  Which hurts the Brewing Network, not the BN club which it's associated with.  Lets be honest, most homebrewers listen to one or more of the Brewing Network shows.  This COFY drama is now this is a major problem for Justin.  The traditional "BN Listener" who enters comps under the BN Club is chipping away at the Network as a whole.  Which is bad for all homebrewers. 

Over the last year, the Brewing Network Forums have been dead, the Brewing Network shows do not talk about the Club like it did in 2013.  They (guess) want it gone also.   

The Brewing Network has opened a lot of doors in the Homebrew Industry.  You do not hear Gary Glass traveling to QUAFF (which is arguably the next biggest club) meetings to talk about NHC rule changes and pitches for the AHA.  This type media is simply not available to clubs.  We, as a industry need the Brewing Network to keep growing at the pace we see today.  Now do we need the club?  I have no idea.

Bottom line, this is a problem for the Brewing Network as much as the people complaining about it.  Any solution will not stop this problem...

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 23, 2015, 09:05:24 PM
While this thread  has been "civil" there is an undercurrent of anti-BN sentiment.

I disagree with that interpretation. There are a few people who dislike the BN but their complaints about the COTY award are independent from their opinion of the BN. I do not believe they would have a change of heart about COTY if some other similar entity was winning. If the forum members at Northern Brewer's forum decided they wanted to list Northern Brewer as their club and the owners got up and accepted the award I believe most, maybe all, of the people in this thread insisting upon a change in the rules would have the same issue.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 23, 2015, 09:26:47 PM

Regardless of rules or what Justin says, I doubt I'll write BN Army as my club anymore. It was fun, its not anymore.

Don't let them get you down Jim,  I'm more inclined to list the BN now.
I dont know if im more inclined, but I hear ya.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 23, 2015, 09:26:55 PM
General Comment on the national Homebrewers Competition


There has been little if any discussion on how the Competition was run this year in this thread.
There were no comments in the Member's Meeting concerning the Competition this year, as opposed to the lively discussion the two previous years.
Part of me wonders if it would have come up had the 'diversity' topic not already taken up a significant amount of discussion time.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 23, 2015, 09:30:15 PM
On ProNight I wore a BN branded hat.  I had 10-12 comments about it.  Mostly bad joke'ish  (from non-BN folks) 
How many of those comments were from your fellow QUAFF members? We have a guy who's been a member of our club for 7+ years, but would always enter comps as the BN (because that is who introduced him to homebrewing), so we always gave him crap over it. Of course, it was all in good fun and was more about local club solidarity than simply because it was the BN. We'd done the same had he entered as QUAFF or the Zealots or some other none-Arizona club. If any of us felt like he was taking offense to our comments, we would have stopped. Of course this year he entered as ASH and didn't have any beers advance so maybe the joke was on us the whole time. :-p
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 23, 2015, 09:31:43 PM
I think next year I will write down Club of the Year as my club. Im sure to win that way!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: lewybrewing on June 23, 2015, 09:36:46 PM
On ProNight I wore a BN branded hat.  I had 10-12 comments about it.  Mostly bad joke'ish  (from non-BN folks) 
How many of those comments were from your fellow QUAFF members? We have a guy who's been a member of our club for 7+ years, but would always enter comps as the BN (because that is who introduced him to homebrewing), so we always gave him crap over it. Of course, it was all in good fun and was more about local club solidarity than simply because it was the BN. We'd done the same had he entered as QUAFF or the Zealots or some other none-Arizona club. If any of us felt like he was taking offense to our comments, we would have stopped. Of course this year he entered as ASH and didn't have any beers advance so maybe the joke was on us the whole time. :-p

I get a lot of "Ball Busting" from Quaff members but this was outside those comments.  "How is that a club?" Did you enter under the BN?" type comments.  Im hard skinned, so its all well and good.  Just attempting to point out the different perspective during NHC
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Phil_M on June 23, 2015, 09:58:17 PM
I keep seeing this crop up, and I'll keep repeating this: anything that discourages the average lay brewer from entering their beers should not become the rule. Making COTY weighted in such a way that the lay brewer is a liability is not helpful to the hobby, and will result in real gamesmanship on the part of clubs trying to win.

I'm certainly not anti-BN, though I do think they should expect some of the flak they get because of their business model. Stern-styled radio is going to catch flak, that's kinda the point.

I think this discussion has really run it's course, and is starting to turn into folks taking sides for/against BN.

I still say any rule that is designed to target a specific club is out of line. I think there are several fair ways to solve this problem, but this thread isn't one of them.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 23, 2015, 10:21:30 PM
I just heard the podcast with the award and the booing. Its pathetic. The BN is not responsible for that, it's an AHA event. Imagine everyone who didn't win Ninkasi booing when they announce who did. My opinion, if you boo'd you need to not go anymore.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: lewybrewing on June 23, 2015, 10:35:05 PM
I just heard the podcast with the award and the booing. Its pathetic. The BN is not responsible for that, it's an AHA event. Imagine everyone who didn't win Ninkasi booing when they announce who did. My opinion, if you boo'd you need to not go anymore.

Well said Jim. 

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 23, 2015, 11:07:39 PM
If people want to have a club competition COTY is not it, this is just adding up how many individuals in each club win medals. Why not have a seperate category for  clubs. Each club can enter x number of beers like individuals but maybe the number is higher. If that's not logistically possible then each club just designates which individual entries they want entered. That way it is an actual club activity instead of hundreds of individual efforts with no cooperation or collaboration.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 24, 2015, 12:32:49 AM
I keep seeing this crop up, and I'll keep repeating this: anything that discourages the average lay brewer from entering their beers should not become the rule. Making COTY weighted in such a way that the lay brewer is a liability is not helpful to the hobby, and will result in real gamesmanship on the part of clubs trying to win.

I'm certainly not anti-BN, though I do think they should expect some of the flak they get because of their business model. Stern-styled radio is going to catch flak, that's kinda the point.

I think this discussion has really run it's course, and is starting to turn into folks taking sides for/against BN.

I still say any rule that is designed to target a specific club is out of line. I think there are several fair ways to solve this problem, but this thread isn't one of them.
The way the COTY was determined changed when the Club Only Competition points went away a few years back. It has been done before.

I must say that my own performance in the NHC competition,when not so good, makes me say I have to make better beer. Clubs should be thinking that way too.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 24, 2015, 02:06:58 AM
How much booing did the rest of you in attendance hear? I didn't hear a lot; less than some of the previous 4 years. I saw some eyerolls; probably did it myself. I heard some comments. Booing? Sounded like a handful.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 24, 2015, 02:32:34 AM
How much booing did the rest of you in attendance hear? I didn't hear a lot; less than some of the previous 4 years. I saw some eyerolls; probably did it myself. I heard some comments. Booing? Sounded like a handful.
There was a fair amount, but about usual. I looked to the guy on my left who was keeping track of second round medals by club , and said "first round points".
Title: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 24, 2015, 03:05:37 AM
How much booing did the rest of you in attendance hear? I didn't hear a lot; less than some of the previous 4 years. I saw some eyerolls; probably did it myself. I heard some comments. Booing? Sounded like a handful.

Thanks to the Brewing Network one can watch the awards ceremony and decide for herself.  It was streamed live and can be viewed on Livestream on most Smart TV's or any TV with a streaming device such as Roku, Chrome Cast, Fire Stick or Apple TV.  It can also be viewed on mobile devices with the Livestream app or at new.Livestream.com.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ranchovillabrew on June 24, 2015, 03:08:36 AM
I was sitting with QUAF(I am not a member of  any club). I did not hear any booing from their section.  Not much cheering.  But no booing for club of the year.  Loud cheering for  every  other medal  and award.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 24, 2015, 03:11:07 AM

I was sitting with QUAF(I am not a member of  any club). I did not hear any booing from their section.  Not much cheering.  But no booing for club of the year.  Loud cheering for  every  other medal  and award.

I think that's one reason why Justin specifically singled out QUAFF as being a badass club when he went onstage.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 24, 2015, 03:18:25 AM
Quote from: udubdawg blink=topic=23504.msg301262#msg301262 date=1435111618
How much booing did the rest of you in attendance hear? I didn't hear a lot; less than some of the previous 4 years. I saw some eyerolls; probably did it myself. I heard some comments. Booing? Sounded like a handful.

Thanks to the Brewing Network one can watch the awards ceremony and decide for herself.  It was streamed live and can be viewed on Livestream on most Smart TV's or any TV with a streaming device such as Roku, Chrome Cast, Fire Stick or Apple TV.  It can also be viewed on mobile devices with the Livestream app or at new.Livestream.com.

I did that too; still didn't hear that much, but it was more noticeable than in my seat near the center of the room.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Joe T on June 24, 2015, 11:38:30 AM
I just submitted "American Homebrewers Association Forum" as a homebrew club. Problem solved. Y'all are welcome. Please allow 1 week for processing. Now start brewing and let's take down those BN turkeys!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 24, 2015, 12:30:09 PM
How much booing did the rest of you in attendance hear? I didn't hear a lot; less than some of the previous 4 years. I saw some eyerolls; probably did it myself. I heard some comments. Booing? Sounded like a handful.
I didn't attend but based on the livestream broadcast when I was listening live, it was worse than previous years.  Maybe the microphones were positioned in a way they picked up the high concentration of people that were booing.  Or maybe they picked up the one guy who was booing really loud and stormed out like a 3 year old.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 24, 2015, 12:51:14 PM
How much booing did the rest of you in attendance hear? I didn't hear a lot; less than some of the previous 4 years. I saw some eyerolls; probably did it myself. I heard some comments. Booing? Sounded like a handful.
I didn't attend but based on the livestream broadcast when I was listening live, it was worse than previous years.  Maybe the microphones were positioned in a way they picked up the high concentration of people that were booing.  Or maybe they picked up the one guy who was booing really loud and stormed out like a 3 year old.
Yes, I heard boos. When QUAFF was the 800 lb gorilla there were boos, I remember some for the St. Paul guys the last year they won. Might be more for the BN though.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 24, 2015, 03:13:41 PM
How much booing did the rest of you in attendance hear? I didn't hear a lot; less than some of the previous 4 years. I saw some eyerolls; probably did it myself. I heard some comments. Booing? Sounded like a handful.
I honestly wasn't paying attention at that point.  I may have rolled my eyes, but we were sharing beers and congratulating Schoppe.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dbeechum on June 24, 2015, 03:15:12 PM
Yeah, every time we've had multiple winners there's been grumbling starting at year 2.

Face it, repeats are a common occurrence with most of the years of this award - the award was created in 1985 - 1986-1995 it went to the Sonoma Beerocrats, 2001-2006 QUAFF, 2007-2009 St. Paul, 2011-2015 TBN. So out of 30 years of the award 24 times it's gone to a repeating club that's on a long streak.

With the BN, everyone's complaining about their spread and reach. With QUAFF everyone complained that hey, how come they have Jamil who lives nowhere near the club because he's in Sacramento? With St. Paul, that's no fair, they've enlisted Gordon Strong who lives in Ohio!

It's always something.

But I'm still a fan of shaking up the award a little and making it more interesting.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: alewyfe01 on June 24, 2015, 04:06:03 PM
I agree with every point Steve made.
If a region is so small it doesn't have a club, tell that single HBr to get off their bum and promote their hobby. Lots of people out there want to learn to brew  but don't know where to start. Our club in a town of 22m has gone from 0 to 70 members in 8 yrs because one guy wanted some brew  companionship and hung a couple flyers and put an ad in the local classifieds

A real club becomes a social network. A catalyst to friendships that transcend just your brewing interests. Providing camaraderie and support not available by mere e contact.

My 2 cents.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 24, 2015, 04:16:51 PM
Yeah, every time we've had multiple winners there's been grumbling starting at year 2.

Face it, repeats are a common occurrence with most of the years of this award - the award was created in 1985 - 1986-1995 it went to the Sonoma Beerocrats, 2001-2006 QUAFF, 2007-2009 St. Paul, 2011-2015 TBN. So out of 30 years of the award 24 times it's gone to a repeating club that's on a long streak.

With the BN, everyone's complaining about their spread and reach. With QUAFF everyone complained that hey, how come they have Jamil who lives nowhere near the club because he's in Sacramento? With St. Paul, that's no fair, they've enlisted Gordon Strong who lives in Ohio!

It's always something.

But I'm still a fan of shaking up the award a little and making it more interesting.
Gordon said he was in the Twin Cities for work often, and started going to the club meetings.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dbeechum on June 24, 2015, 04:17:55 PM
Gordon said he was in the Twin Cities for work often, and started going to the club meetings.

Oh, I know, but that was still the thing people complained about starting year 1 of St. Paul winning. Nevermind that at least by the end, they didn't need Gordon's points to win.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 24, 2015, 04:18:08 PM
If a region is so small it doesn't have a club, tell that single HBr to get off their bum and promote their hobby. Lots of people out there want to learn to brew  but don't know where to start. Our club in a town of 22m has gone from 0 to 70 members in 8 yrs because one guy wanted some brew  companionship and hung a couple flyers and put an ad in the local classifieds.

I'm guessing that's supposed to be 22,000.

Anyway, we do have one other homebrewer (in a city of 3,000), but... how can I put this? We have different motivations for wanting to make beer. I resent the implication that I'm lazy just because I prefer talking about brewing to nodding politely at each sip of phenolic rocket fuel. The AHA forum *is* my "club".

FWIW, I may try to get something started once we have a venue for meetings (no LHBS, no brewery yet).
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 24, 2015, 04:19:55 PM

Yeah, every time we've had multiple winners there's been grumbling starting at year 2.

Face it, repeats are a common occurrence with most of the years of this award - the award was created in 1985 - 1986-1995 it went to the Sonoma Beerocrats, 2001-2006 QUAFF, 2007-2009 St. Paul, 2011-2015 TBN. So out of 30 years of the award 24 times it's gone to a repeating club that's on a long streak.

It seems most people don't know this or choose to ignore it.  If the rules are changed to exclude the BN QUAFF will dominate.  The same problem will exist with the same people complaining about something else.  There will also be a new problem caused by alienating those in the BN.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 24, 2015, 04:21:40 PM
Gordon said he was in the Twin Cities for work often, and started going to the club meetings.

Oh, I know, but that was still the thing people complained about starting year 1 of St. Paul winning. Nevermind that at least by the end, they didn't need Gordon's points to win.
That is true. They have some darned good Brewers and mead makers.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: alewyfe01 on June 24, 2015, 04:31:10 PM
If a region is so small it doesn't have a club, tell that single HBr to get off their bum and promote their hobby. Lots of people out there want to learn to brew  but don't know where to start. Our club in a town of 22m has gone from 0 to 70 members in 8 yrs because one guy wanted some brew  companionship and hung a couple flyers and put an ad in the local classifieds.

I'm guessing that's supposed to be 22,000.

Anyway, we do have one other homebrewer (in a city of 3,000), but... how can I put this? We have different motivations for wanting to make beer. I resent the implication that I'm lazy just because I prefer talking about brewing to nodding politely at each sip of phenolic rocket fuel. The AHA forum *is* my "club".

FWIW, I may try to get something started once we have a venue for meetings (no LHBS, no brewery yet).
Sean I would never insinuate you are lazy. I retract that inference. Just meant if people want brew companionship it is available. If they reach out.  I feel your pain. As the longest running brewer in our club I  get to taste everyone's banana & rubber pale ales and come up with encouraging comments. Love the people but not all their beers. You're one of my brew hero's and now I  feel bad for stepping on your cowboy hat, err toes.
I was not booing, but no it was not for fun. People don't like this.

You have to think about this for a moment to realize the level of frustration for clubs that are not nationally based. They can't compete.

Even large regional clubs can barely do so. We can't in St Paul anymore. We don't have the numbers.

Also, calling the BN a club....well....yeah, there is that aspect, but isn't it also a business? Isn't someone making money off this? Seriously? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

While the BN has provided info to people, it's not the be all and end all of brewing.

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_khqAOpZqHEI/TS8Ror3F23I/AAAAAAAAEX4/sLYyZrcT2q0/s1600/applause%5B4%5D.gif)


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 24, 2015, 04:47:21 PM

Yeah, every time we've had multiple winners there's been grumbling starting at year 2.

Face it, repeats are a common occurrence with most of the years of this award - the award was created in 1985 - 1986-1995 it went to the Sonoma Beerocrats, 2001-2006 QUAFF, 2007-2009 St. Paul, 2011-2015 TBN. So out of 30 years of the award 24 times it's gone to a repeating club that's on a long streak.

It seems most people don't know this or choose to ignore it.  If the rules are changed to exclude the BN QUAFF will dominate.  The same problem will exist with the same people complaining about something else.  There will also be a new problem caused by alienating those in the BN.

We should not be advocating to "exclude the BN" as it is not their problem that they are currently winning, we should be advocating to change the rules to make it possible for any club to win. Whether that is accomplished via only counting finals round points or by breaking up the awards into GABF style small/medium/large clubs is up to the AHA GC.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 24, 2015, 05:05:11 PM
this has gone for a while now, but there's at least three separate issues here.

1. Is BN a club?  This is what the thread started with, but it always felt like that was not what it was about...

2. Some people are booing/otherwise acting poorly.  Gets mentioned every year.

3. The COTY award doesn't have a lot of meaning

I say "sure" to the first, "idiots are everywhere" to the second, and "I agree" to the third.

any other major ones I'm missing?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dbeechum on June 24, 2015, 05:18:33 PM
I think the other one is - do we want to make the CotY award more dynamic, more variable and more interesting.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 24, 2015, 05:19:08 PM
If the booing was just a few, then the BN must have edited the audio significantly. I doubt that. Frankly, writing BN Army on my entry sheets WAS no big deal. Hearing the booing did two things for me. 1. Guarenteed that the banquet is not a good place for me to go. That moment would ruin the entire trip for me. Id probably also get stuck next to Melvin from Office Space and have to listen to nonstop whining about how he's unhappy with the salad dressing. 2. The booing makes me want to continue to write down BN Army, and root for them to win every category every year.

This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 24, 2015, 05:20:30 PM
You're one of my brew hero's and now I  feel bad for stepping on your cowboy hat, err toes.

Aww, now I feel bad for being overly sensitive. Hugs all around.

Plus I have to start a club now that I've thought of a good backronym. We shall be The Leadville Area Zymurgists Interested in Experimenting, Socializing, and Tasting Club.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 24, 2015, 05:21:07 PM
This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.

So you haven't had a Bud Light Strawberry Lime-a-Rita?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 24, 2015, 05:30:39 PM

This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.

So you haven't had a Bud Light Strawberry Lime-a-Rita?

That will at least do the trick.  This thread is a buzzkill.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 24, 2015, 05:31:45 PM
This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.

So you haven't had a Bud Light Strawberry Lime-a-Rita?

;D. Unfortunately, my wife likes those. Dreadful damn product.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 24, 2015, 05:33:30 PM
If the booing was just a few, then the BN must have edited the audio significantly. I doubt that. Frankly, writing BN Army on my entry sheets WAS no big deal. Hearing the booing did two things for me. 1. Guarenteed that the banquet is not a good place for me to go. That moment would ruin the entire trip for me. Id probably also get stuck next to Melvin from Office Space and have to listen to nonstop whining about how he's unhappy with the salad dressing. 2. The booing makes me want to continue to write down BN Army, and root for them to win every category every year.

This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.

1. Ruin your entire trip, really?
2. Why would you let such a tiny minority of people ruin anything for you?  They don't speak for all AHA members.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 24, 2015, 05:38:31 PM

This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.

So you haven't had a Bud Light Strawberry Lime-a-Rita?

;D. Unfortunately, my wife likes those. Dreadful damn product.
Somebody obviously is buying the crap out them. Never tried one, but I can't deny that I would if a free opportunity presented itself.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 24, 2015, 05:41:10 PM
This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.

So you haven't had a Bud Light Strawberry Lime-a-Rita?
Hadn't thought of that. You're right.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 24, 2015, 05:43:30 PM
If the booing was just a few, then the BN must have edited the audio significantly. I doubt that. Frankly, writing BN Army on my entry sheets WAS no big deal. Hearing the booing did two things for me. 1. Guarenteed that the banquet is not a good place for me to go. That moment would ruin the entire trip for me. Id probably also get stuck next to Melvin from Office Space and have to listen to nonstop whining about how he's unhappy with the salad dressing. 2. The booing makes me want to continue to write down BN Army, and root for them to win every category every year.

This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.

1. Ruin your entire trip, really?
2. Why would you let such a tiny minority of people ruin anything for you?  They don't speak for all AHA members.
I guess I could yell out "Booers suck!" and when people turn and look I could just point at the salad dressing guy. Both problems solved.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 24, 2015, 05:51:35 PM

This thread coupled with the audio of the award is about the saddest thing going on in brewing.

So you haven't had a Bud Light Strawberry Lime-a-Rita?

;D. Unfortunately, my wife likes those. Dreadful damn product.
Somebody obviously is buying the crap out them. Never tried one, but I can't deny that I would if a free opportunity presented itself.

I tried it, so I'll save you the trouble. It is sickeningly sweet, reminiscent of concentrated strawberry daiquiri mix prior to the mixing part. Just enough carbonation to make it palatable to those who like Moscato wines and Fun Dip.  ;D
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 24, 2015, 05:55:19 PM
Frankly, writing BN Army on my entry sheets WAS no big deal.
You wrote this on your entry? I mean wasn't the BN included as a dropdown on your entry? Is there a separate dropdown for the BN Army?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 24, 2015, 06:05:35 PM
Frankly, writing BN Army on my entry sheets WAS no big deal.
You wrote this on your entry? I mean wasn't the BN included as a dropdown on your entry? Is there a separate dropdown for the BN Army?
I dont recall any drop downs. Could have been. I remember seeing later that it was supposed to be Brewing Network and wondering if mine wouldn't count. Which, it didnt anyway because I didnt place. I know that when I entered COHO I wrote (typed) BN Army. Yes, I know thats not a COTY thing.

Edit: thinking back, I remember signing up for two entries, then editing to what they were, and paying. I don't think I ever filled out a recipe sheet, don't remember it anyway
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 24, 2015, 08:11:18 PM
That will at least do the trick.  This thread is a buzzkill.

I thought this thread was remarkably level-headed and insightful, and I hope the AHA at least considers some of the ideas proposed here.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: brewcasterj on June 24, 2015, 08:23:01 PM
Hey Brewers, it's Justin.

I usually stay out of these things, and probably should this time too if I was a little smarter, but there are just a few things I feel the need to say. They are mostly clarifications to some of the myths spread by the "I heard's" and the "He said's". And then maybe a little of my humble opinion... Oh, and this will be long as s*** because once I get started I never shut up, so sorry in advance.

First, I wanted to clarify that the BN is not now, nor has it ever been, a paying sponsor of the NHC or AHA. All the work we do for the conference is done in trade and for the love of the hobby. We stream the awards ceremony for them, and in exchange we get a booth in the Homebrew Expo. Our merchandise sales at the booth help to subsidize the thousands of dollars we spend to be there each year, but still doesn't cover the costs. We do however, benefit from the exposure of being at the conference, which is a wonderful thing for the BN Company. But make no mistake, we are not paying to play, are not official sponsors, and the AHA owes us nothing in that regard.

Which leads me to the issue of equal speaking time at the ceremony, and my commandeering of the mic each year. I would first like to state that Gary Glass does not give me more mic time or even really "allow" me to give a speech. I pretty much just take the mic from him each year, like I imagine anyone else could do. I'm kind of a bull in a china shop when I get on a stage so most people have no choice but to hand over the goods, or suffer my endless ridicule.

But I will explain why I take the mic, and why I won't in any future awards. I took it the first year because I was elated that the BN club won COTY. I had been watching other clubs win for years at that point and was always just so excited for them. I could see the sheer happiness on their faces when their hard work paid off, it was just awesome. In fact, aside from Ninkasi, it had always been my favorite award. These people were pumped! So when we won that first time, I was just ecstatic for the brewers in my club. But when we were boo'd from that very first win, I was shocked, disappointed, and really, just let down. So in future years, I have stood up to defend my club members. I have a pretty thick skin, but I didn't feel like it was fair to them to be treated that way for making great beer and winning medals. So I stood up to try and subtly (sometimes not so subtly I guess), defend them. My hope was that I might be able to change the minds of some of those booing. I now see that that was a misguided belief, and clearly had the opposite effect. I did not mean to look like I was gloating, taking up your valuable time, or exercising a privilege others did not receive.  I will not say a word on that stage again, and to the BN Club, you have my apologies for helping to perpetuate a behavior against you that I was trying to correct.

And then there's the part about the separation of the BN Club and the BN Company. The BN club was created by a listener as a reaction to a void listeners were feeling when competing in local competitions. They felt wholeheartedly attached as a group that, to them, was their club, and wanted to enter comps as such. To fix the void, someone created the club, registered it with the AHA, and so it was born (back in 2006 I believe, we did not win until 2011). It was not then, nor is it now, financially supported or even overtly encouraged by the BN Company. I do, however, agree with their right to form a club under the BN name, since they clearly felt it fit the description they were looking for. Also, if I'm completely honest, the fact that my listeners formed a club around the resources we were creating (and giving out for free) is a great source of pride for me. I'm proud that my work helped facilitate the kind of experience they were craving, and I'm proud that they formed an entity that fit their needs separate of my company. I'm not sure what else I could really say to define the separation, but I guess I'll also just add that the BN Company does not encourage any "flooding" of any competition. In fact, when we encourage competition, the sole reason we give is to get better feedback on your beer, and become a better brewer. It is also my understanding that the BN Club itself does not organize in any way to "flood" the first round NHC. They simply enter in their respective regions, and yes, the sheer number of them, by default, results in a very large number of entries.

So after this year's mess at the banquet, I left feeling pretty bummed again and it got me thinking. As I always want what's best for homebrewing, and homebrewers, is the BN Club winning COTY good for homebrewing? Based on the fact that so many people have misperceptions (which are still perceptions, unfortunately) about the rules, nature of the competition, who makes such rules (the AHA, btw), and the separation of my company from the club, I can't help but conclude that it is not good for homebrewing. And if the AHA membership is not going to unify and decide how they want to see things change, and then send that unified message to the AHA to ask that their association change things accordingly, then maybe I should do it for them instead.

So I got on the air this week and proposed 3 things to our members:
1. We stop competing as a club: The affect this will have is to stop the general bad behavior toward the BN Club, and by association, the BN Company, which I have to admit is a concern to me. I'd be an idiot if it wasn't. Unfortunately, it will also have the affect of leaving my club members feeling alienated once again (although they pretty much are now anyway). This weighs heavy on me as I care about those bunch of asshats. It also steals the opportunity for QUAFF, assuming they will win next year (duh!), to beat us fair and square, and I'm not happy about that either.
2. We split the BN Club into regions: This will reduce the sheer numbers of the club and, while not satisfying the needs of The BN Club to act together as a group like every other club, would at least kill the biggest challenge that the rules, as they exist now, pose to smaller clubs. Although the other big clubs still exist, so...
3. We continue with the status quo, follow the rules, and enter as a club like everyone else: I don't like this option at all (see the "good for homebrewing?" question). But many of my club members do. So do many of the larger clubs who know they can beat us. But it's also bad for the BN Company and leaves me in a bit of a lurch.

So at least you know where I am coming from and what I have proposed to my club to see if we can help the situation. For now, I will let them decide, but ultimately, I may have to form a dictatorship and make the best decision for them, if necessary. Since I'm also a member of the club, I will weigh in heavily on their decision.

There is one other thing I need to chime in on ( I told you this would be long as s***) and I'm a little sensitive about this one. There is a gross misrepresentation in this thread about what happened at the members meeting, and who it was directed towards. First, attend the members meeting people!! Not only does it give you the chance to participate in the organization you belong to, but you also then don't have to be part of the rumor mill like a high school freshman.

The topic of diversity in the AHA had been a theme throughout the week for GC members like myself, the AHA, and a panel presentation too. At the meeting there was an AHA member (and an awesome woman btw) who stood up to explain a disgusting commentary she overheard that week. The conversation actually occurred not at the conference, but in the line for my anniversary event. She made it clear that she was not directing this towards me, nor does she think this is a BN problem, but that it was a direct example of the kinds of things that the AHA should be looking out for as we look for ways to better serve women and other underrepresented groups in attendance of AHA events. There were other examples that happened at the conference as well, but this was the one she chose to bring up as it was a particularly offensive exchange. (see, I told you should attend the meeting. If you had, you wouldn't be sitting there dying to know what was said!! But I digress).

Now, I am not a member of the Diversity Subcommittee, but the person on the panel who is (also an amazing woman), became emotional (and rightly so) during the exchange and I stepped in to reply to the comment. I was the other person there qualified to do so given my educational background in gender studies and communication (yeah, I know, total shocker). So I chimed in and addressed the topic on behalf of the Governing Committee. In other words, I did what you elected me to do. So to read here that "Justin got an earful" and other such insinuations that any of that had to do with the BN, me, or even remotely related to this topic of my club, is frankly more disheartening to me than any of the boos or other negative reactions toward my club.

So while I respect your right to express your opinions openly here, I do ask that you kindly get your facts straight before spreading rumors about what happened at a meeting you didn't attend. This particular rumor is hurtful not only to my feelings (yeah, feelings, sorry), but to my effectiveness as your representative on the GC. I'm happy to be evaluated by my performance and effectiveness, but I do request that they be things that actually happened. And thank you to Drew for sticking up for me in this regard here in the thread.

Alright. Wow, s*** that's long. I'm, going to go back to my Stern-style whatever it is that we do now. Thanks for your time. Also, please remember that your voice will be heard by the Competition Sub-Committee about what you would like to see happen differently, and I am also always open to hearing intelligent commentary on the subject of the BN, the BN Club and the San Francisco Giants. My email is justin @ the company name

J
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 24, 2015, 08:50:50 PM

That will at least do the trick.  This thread is a buzzkill.

I thought this thread was remarkably level-headed and insightful, and I hope the AHA at least considers some of the ideas proposed here.

For the most part this has been level-headed but some just seem to be hating on the BN.  The worst was trying to connect inappropriate comments made by BNers to the BN as a whole.  I know that the person who brought that up said that wasn't the point, but when one mentions the two together that is the effect whether it was intended or not. 

As for the ideas proposed here, I doubt the AHA will consider them unless members write to the Governing Committee or Competition Committee members specifically.  I don't think everyone on those committees is necessarily reading this thread.  I encourage anyone who has a concern to write or email members on those committees.  That's how things get done.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 24, 2015, 08:51:30 PM
@ Justin.  Awesome!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 24, 2015, 08:52:07 PM
Well said Justin.  Brew Strong.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 24, 2015, 08:52:17 PM
You lost me with the SF Giants comment...thanks a lot for the Panda  ::)

Well said Justin.  I think what burns me the most is due to these perceptions, mis or otherwise, there are fellow BN Army members taking the hit for brewing great beer and trying to be proud of the job they are doing as a club.  Also, it is unfair to the BN company to be taking a PR hit for something you and your staff have nothing to do with.  As I have mentioned in this thread, I have won 1st and 2nd round medals under the BN Club when I wasn't part of a local club.  Since joining a local club, I always enter under that, even though I'm the only one that competes on a regular basis and chances for COTY or Gambrinus are non-existent.  I also admit that when it comes to the BN, I tend to be a little protective.  You guys got me back into brewing (after some horribly bad early experiences) and I developed many new relationships with brewers that wouldn't have been available without the BN.

I've sent my thoughts to the Competition Committee and wait to see how this all pans out, but no one can blame you if you decide to pull the BN name form the club.  You've spent years developing your brand and have to protect it.  It would be easy to sit here and say "screw them", but in the end, that accomplishes nothing.

With that said, I look forward to seeing you guys out on the East Coast next year and oh...suck it JP!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: denny on June 24, 2015, 08:52:54 PM
Well said, Justin!  I watched the awards online and frankly I teared up when you took the mic and expressed your love of homebrewing and homebrewers.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ranchovillabrew on June 24, 2015, 09:06:30 PM
Hey Brewers, it's Justin.

I usually stay out of these things, and probably should this time too if I was a little smarter, but there are just a few things I feel the need to say. They are mostly clarifications to some of the myths spread by the "I heard's" and the "He said's". And then maybe a little of my humble opinion... Oh, and this will be long as s*** because once I get started I never shut up, so sorry in advance.

First, I wanted to clarify that the BN is not now, nor has it ever been, a paying sponsor of the NHC or AHA. All the work we do for the conference is done in trade and for the love of the hobby. We stream the awards ceremony for them, and in exchange we get a booth in the Homebrew Expo. Our merchandise sales at the booth help to subsidize the thousands of dollars we spend to be there each year, but still doesn't cover the costs. We do however, benefit from the exposure of being at the conference, which is a wonderful thing for the BN Company. But make no mistake, we are not paying to play, are not official sponsors, and the AHA owes us nothing in that regard.

Which leads me to the issue of equal speaking time at the ceremony, and my commandeering of the mic each year. I would first like to state that Gary Glass does not give me more mic time or even really "allow" me to give a speech. I pretty much just take the mic from him each year, like I imagine anyone else could do. I'm kind of a bull in a china shop when I get on a stage so most people have no choice but to hand over the goods, or suffer my endless ridicule.

But I will explain why I take the mic, and why I won't in any future awards. I took it the first year because I was elated that the BN club won COTY. I had been watching other clubs win for years at that point and was always just so excited for them. I could see the sheer happiness on their faces when their hard work paid off, it was just awesome. In fact, aside from Ninkasi, it had always been my favorite award. These people were pumped! So when we won that first time, I was just ecstatic for the brewers in my club. But when we were boo'd from that very first win, I was shocked, disappointed, and really, just let down. So in future years, I have stood up to defend my club members. I have a pretty thick skin, but I didn't feel like it was fair to them to be treated that way for making great beer and winning medals. So I stood up to try and subtly (sometimes not so subtly I guess), defend them. My hope was that I might be able to change the minds of some of those booing. I now see that that was a misguided belief, and clearly had the opposite effect. I did not mean to look like I was gloating, taking up your valuable time, or exercising a privilege others did not receive.  I will not say a word on that stage again, and to the BN Club, you have my apologies for helping to perpetuate a behavior against you that I was trying to correct.

And then there's the part about the separation of the BN Club and the BN Company. The BN club was created by a listener as a reaction to a void listeners were feeling when competing in local competitions. They felt wholeheartedly attached as a group that, to them, was their club, and wanted to enter comps as such. To fix the void, someone created the club, registered it with the AHA, and so it was born (back in 2006 I believe, we did not win until 2011). It was not then, nor is it now, financially supported or even overtly encouraged by the BN Company. I do, however, agree with their right to form a club under the BN name, since they clearly felt it fit the description they were looking for. Also, if I'm completely honest, the fact that my listeners formed a club around the resources we were creating (and giving out for free) is a great source of pride for me. I'm proud that my work helped facilitate the kind of experience they were craving, and I'm proud that they formed an entity that fit their needs separate of my company. I'm not sure what else I could really say to define the separation, but I guess I'll also just add that the BN Company does not encourage any "flooding" of any competition. In fact, when we encourage competition, the sole reason we give is to get better feedback on your beer, and become a better brewer. It is also my understanding that the BN Club itself does not organize in any way to "flood" the first round NHC. They simply enter in their respective regions, and yes, the sheer number of them, by default, results in a very large number of entries.

So after this year's mess at the banquet, I left feeling pretty bummed again and it got me thinking. As I always want what's best for homebrewing, and homebrewers, is the BN Club winning COTY good for homebrewing? Based on the fact that so many people have misperceptions (which are still perceptions, unfortunately) about the rules, nature of the competition, who makes such rules (the AHA, btw), and the separation of my company from the club, I can't help but conclude that it is not good for homebrewing. And if the AHA membership is not going to unify and decide how they want to see things change, and then send that unified message to the AHA to ask that their association change things accordingly, then maybe I should do it for them instead.

So I got on the air this week and proposed 3 things to our members:
1. We stop competing as a club: The affect this will have is to stop the general bad behavior toward the BN Club, and by association, the BN Company, which I have to admit is a concern to me. I'd be an idiot if it wasn't. Unfortunately, it will also have the affect of leaving my club members feeling alienated once again (although they pretty much are now anyway). This weighs heavy on me as I care about those bunch of asshats. It also steals the opportunity for QUAFF, assuming they will win next year (duh!), to beat us fair and square, and I'm not happy about that either.
2. We split the BN Club into regions: This will reduce the sheer numbers of the club and, while not satisfying the needs of The BN Club to act together as a group like every other club, would at least kill the biggest challenge that the rules, as they exist now, pose to smaller clubs. Although the other big clubs still exist, so...
3. We continue with the status quo, follow the rules, and enter as a club like everyone else: I don't like this option at all (see the "good for homebrewing?" question). But many of my club members do. So do many of the larger clubs who know they can beat us. But it's also bad for the BN Company and leaves me in a bit of a lurch.

So at least you know where I am coming from and what I have proposed to my club to see if we can help the situation. For now, I will let them decide, but ultimately, I may have to form a dictatorship and make the best decision for them, if necessary. Since I'm also a member of the club, I will weigh in heavily on their decision.

There is one other thing I need to chime in on ( I told you this would be long as s***) and I'm a little sensitive about this one. There is a gross misrepresentation in this thread about what happened at the members meeting, and who it was directed towards. First, attend the members meeting people!! Not only does it give you the chance to participate in the organization you belong to, but you also then don't have to be part of the rumor mill like a high school freshman.

The topic of diversity in the AHA had been a theme throughout the week for GC members like myself, the AHA, and a panel presentation too. At the meeting there was an AHA member (and an awesome woman btw) who stood up to explain a disgusting commentary she overheard that week. The conversation actually occurred not at the conference, but in the line for my anniversary event. She made it clear that she was not directing this towards me, nor does she think this is a BN problem, but that it was a direct example of the kinds of things that the AHA should be looking out for as we look for ways to better serve women and other underrepresented groups in attendance of AHA events. There were other examples that happened at the conference as well, but this was the one she chose to bring up as it was a particularly offensive exchange. (see, I told you should attend the meeting. If you had, you wouldn't be sitting there dying to know what was said!! But I digress).

Now, I am not a member of the Diversity Subcommittee, but the person on the panel who is (also an amazing woman), became emotional (and rightly so) during the exchange and I stepped in to reply to the comment. I was the other person there qualified to do so given my educational background in gender studies and communication (yeah, I know, total shocker). So I chimed in and addressed the topic on behalf of the Governing Committee. In other words, I did what you elected me to do. So to read here that "Justin got an earful" and other such insinuations that any of that had to do with the BN, me, or even remotely related to this topic of my club, is frankly more disheartening to me than any of the boos or other negative reactions toward my club.

So while I respect your right to express your opinions openly here, I do ask that you kindly get your facts straight before spreading rumors about what happened at a meeting you didn't attend. This particular rumor is hurtful not only to my feelings (yeah, feelings, sorry), but to my effectiveness as your representative on the GC. I'm happy to be evaluated by my performance and effectiveness, but I do request that they be things that actually happened. And thank you to Drew for sticking up for me in this regard here in the thread.

Alright. Wow, s*** that's long. I'm, going to go back to my Stern-style whatever it is that we do now. Thanks for your time. Also, please remember that your voice will be heard by the Competition Sub-Committee about what you would like to see happen differently, and I am also always open to hearing intelligent commentary on the subject of the BN, the BN Club and the San Francisco Giants. My email is justin @ the company name

J

Justin,

Thank you for the great explanation of the BN and your GC position.

A few things:

1. I am not a member of a club. (I would consider the AHA forum to be "my club")
2. I am not a regular BN listener
3. This was my first NHC
4. I was at the members meeting
5. You are reasonable except in your support of the Giants. Viva Los Doyers!
6. It is incredibly rude to boo at awards ceremony. Those that did should be ashamed
7. The members meeting comments/what was said in line for the BN party was disgusting and is only the responsibility of those that said it as were the comments of the two dumbsh**s behind me in the banquet line.
8. I think the simplest solution is the stratifying of club sizes or a better definition of clubs. (not to exclude the BN army, but to make it not a forgone conclusion)
9. As a first time attendee, I was surprised more people didn't take the stage/mic for their awards. Your speech was classy and very appropriate.
10. If there is anything to sort out on your end it is where the business ends and where the club begins. Please continue to come to events and stream things like the awards banquet.
11. The main reason I am not a listener or forum user is that I utilize the AHA forum and the beersmith podcasts and that's as much info as I can wade through effectively.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Hella Hazy on June 24, 2015, 09:08:19 PM
Well said Justin!

I can't sing enough praises about the BN & all you've done for both my homebrewing personally & the industry as a whole.  Although I'm entering under my local homebrew club now, I'll always be a BN Army club member in spirit, & support the BN company whenever I can & in anyway I can.

Maybe the solution for the club/business fiasco is to change the name of the BN Club to the 'no JPs allowed club', since I think that's something that everyone can get behind! 

BAM!  End of controversy.  ;)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 24, 2015, 09:12:47 PM
11. The main reason I am not a listener or forum user is that I utilize the AHA forum and the beersmith podcasts and that's as much info as I can wade through effectively.
For me, it's because the Brewing Network forum blocks the subnet my work address is on.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dbeechum on June 24, 2015, 10:04:08 PM
Maybe the solution for the club/business fiasco is to change the name of the BN Club to the 'no JPs allowed club', since I think that's something that everyone can get behind! 

I'm afraid that would be every club out there! (Kidding, I love you JP)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 24, 2015, 10:44:06 PM
I sincerely hope it's option #3. While I'd like to see the rules changed to give smaller clubs a shot, the only thing worse than two large clubs giving one another a run for their money is one large club winning in a foregone conclusion.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 24, 2015, 10:55:30 PM
Does everyone understand that Justin doesn't write the rules for COTY?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: mchrispen on June 24, 2015, 11:15:19 PM
Justin and Brewing Network & BN Army, I owe you all an open apology. It was absolutely not my intention to infer or imply in anyway that the "Diversity comments" were caused by Justin, BN or the BN Army. I see how it added fuel to the fire - and I am sorry about that.

I was in the meeting and I was quite upset about what happened... and concerned about how it reflects on the AHA. Putting it into context with this thread was a major mistake.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 24, 2015, 11:34:25 PM
In my opinion, Matt, its all good. I just dont see where we would be having this discussion if it weren't for morons who boo and morons who say stupid crap in public. Its human nature to not confront the morons and simply blame it on the powers that be. 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 24, 2015, 11:41:41 PM
Does everyone understand that Justin doesn't write the rules for COTY?
Did anyone ever think this?


Btw, well said Justin. I still think the rules need changed, so that you (and we) can go with option 3.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 24, 2015, 11:42:19 PM
Does everyone understand that Justin doesn't write the rules for COTY?

If there's one thing I've learned in my relatively short life, it's that there's nothing everyone understands.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 24, 2015, 11:46:00 PM
Does everyone understand that Justin doesn't write the rules for COTY?
Did anyone ever think this?


Btw, well said Justin. I still think the rules need changed, so that you (and we) can go with option 3.
Yes. You must not listen to the BN.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: AmandaK on June 24, 2015, 11:53:11 PM
Does everyone understand that Justin doesn't write the rules for COTY?
Did anyone ever think this?


Btw, well said Justin. I still think the rules need changed, so that you (and we) can go with option 3.
Yes. You must not listen to the BN.
Haha. :) No, I stopped around 2013... when I found a local homebrew club. The BN was my first source of beer knowledge, so I will not hate on them.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 25, 2015, 12:00:02 AM
Hopefully we can get to the point where people dont need a reason to not hate on... any club.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 25, 2015, 12:25:32 AM
I'm trying to figure out why this COTY thing has me so angry. I think its because I have to wade a cesspool of dysfunction all day for a living, and when I hear about it creeping into my hobby its really depressing and infuriating. Early on I heard over and over again that the reason why people enter beers is to get feedback and improve their beer. Now, its fairly accepted truth that quality feedback is pretty lacking on most score sheets, and when you add to that that AHA members who are committed enough to shell out big money to attend NHC, then they boo fellow brewers...

Probably someone will respond that its my fault I feel this way. Maybe it is. That would be a convenient and easy fix wouldn't it.

Im taking a break.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 25, 2015, 01:25:51 AM
this has gone for a while now, but there's at least three separate issues here.

1. Is BN a club?  This is what the thread started with, but it always felt like that was not what it was about...

2. Some people are booing/otherwise acting poorly.  Gets mentioned every year.

3. The COTY award doesn't have a lot of meaning

I say "sure" to the first, "idiots are everywhere" to the second, and "I agree" to the third.

any other major ones I'm missing?

I didn't list these to state the already-obvious.

I did it because I hoped that people were not confusing the issues.  But just as I feel it was wrong to associate some comments made in a party line with BN winning COTY, I also feel like some BN members have taken a "you just don't want *US* to win!" mentality.  I don't see any "us versus them" necessary here, yet I keep seeing these "this just makes me want to beat them even more!" comments. 

So, I'll say it again.  Wanting change does not mean you do not support The Brewing Network.  If this is your viewpoint, please stop.  I support BN's right to win COTY...and I want a meaningful award.  I in no way want a QUAFF annual award.  That is pointless.  This is a competition; supposedly the top one we have in this country.  And we save announcing this award for last...

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 25, 2015, 01:30:09 AM
Hey Brewers, it's Justin.

I usually stay out of these things, and probably should this time too if I was a little smarter, but there are just a few things I feel the need to say. They are mostly clarifications to some of the myths spread by the "I heard's" and the "He said's". And then maybe a little of my humble opinion... Oh, and this will be long as s*** because once I get started I never shut up, so sorry in advance.

First, I wanted to clarify that the BN is not now, nor has it ever been, a paying sponsor of the NHC or AHA. All the work we do for the conference is done in trade and for the love of the hobby. We stream the awards ceremony for them, and in exchange we get a booth in the Homebrew Expo. Our merchandise sales at the booth help to subsidize the thousands of dollars we spend to be there each year, but still doesn't cover the costs. We do however, benefit from the exposure of being at the conference, which is a wonderful thing for the BN Company. But make no mistake, we are not paying to play, are not official sponsors, and the AHA owes us nothing in that regard.

Which leads me to the issue of equal speaking time at the ceremony, and my commandeering of the mic each year. I would first like to state that Gary Glass does not give me more mic time or even really "allow" me to give a speech. I pretty much just take the mic from him each year, like I imagine anyone else could do. I'm kind of a bull in a china shop when I get on a stage so most people have no choice but to hand over the goods, or suffer my endless ridicule.

But I will explain why I take the mic, and why I won't in any future awards. I took it the first year because I was elated that the BN club won COTY. I had been watching other clubs win for years at that point and was always just so excited for them. I could see the sheer happiness on their faces when their hard work paid off, it was just awesome. In fact, aside from Ninkasi, it had always been my favorite award. These people were pumped! So when we won that first time, I was just ecstatic for the brewers in my club. But when we were boo'd from that very first win, I was shocked, disappointed, and really, just let down. So in future years, I have stood up to defend my club members. I have a pretty thick skin, but I didn't feel like it was fair to them to be treated that way for making great beer and winning medals. So I stood up to try and subtly (sometimes not so subtly I guess), defend them. My hope was that I might be able to change the minds of some of those booing. I now see that that was a misguided belief, and clearly had the opposite effect. I did not mean to look like I was gloating, taking up your valuable time, or exercising a privilege others did not receive.  I will not say a word on that stage again, and to the BN Club, you have my apologies for helping to perpetuate a behavior against you that I was trying to correct.

And then there's the part about the separation of the BN Club and the BN Company. The BN club was created by a listener as a reaction to a void listeners were feeling when competing in local competitions. They felt wholeheartedly attached as a group that, to them, was their club, and wanted to enter comps as such. To fix the void, someone created the club, registered it with the AHA, and so it was born (back in 2006 I believe, we did not win until 2011). It was not then, nor is it now, financially supported or even overtly encouraged by the BN Company. I do, however, agree with their right to form a club under the BN name, since they clearly felt it fit the description they were looking for. Also, if I'm completely honest, the fact that my listeners formed a club around the resources we were creating (and giving out for free) is a great source of pride for me. I'm proud that my work helped facilitate the kind of experience they were craving, and I'm proud that they formed an entity that fit their needs separate of my company. I'm not sure what else I could really say to define the separation, but I guess I'll also just add that the BN Company does not encourage any "flooding" of any competition. In fact, when we encourage competition, the sole reason we give is to get better feedback on your beer, and become a better brewer. It is also my understanding that the BN Club itself does not organize in any way to "flood" the first round NHC. They simply enter in their respective regions, and yes, the sheer number of them, by default, results in a very large number of entries.

So after this year's mess at the banquet, I left feeling pretty bummed again and it got me thinking. As I always want what's best for homebrewing, and homebrewers, is the BN Club winning COTY good for homebrewing? Based on the fact that so many people have misperceptions (which are still perceptions, unfortunately) about the rules, nature of the competition, who makes such rules (the AHA, btw), and the separation of my company from the club, I can't help but conclude that it is not good for homebrewing. And if the AHA membership is not going to unify and decide how they want to see things change, and then send that unified message to the AHA to ask that their association change things accordingly, then maybe I should do it for them instead.

So I got on the air this week and proposed 3 things to our members:
1. We stop competing as a club: The affect this will have is to stop the general bad behavior toward the BN Club, and by association, the BN Company, which I have to admit is a concern to me. I'd be an idiot if it wasn't. Unfortunately, it will also have the affect of leaving my club members feeling alienated once again (although they pretty much are now anyway). This weighs heavy on me as I care about those bunch of asshats. It also steals the opportunity for QUAFF, assuming they will win next year (duh!), to beat us fair and square, and I'm not happy about that either.
2. We split the BN Club into regions: This will reduce the sheer numbers of the club and, while not satisfying the needs of The BN Club to act together as a group like every other club, would at least kill the biggest challenge that the rules, as they exist now, pose to smaller clubs. Although the other big clubs still exist, so...
3. We continue with the status quo, follow the rules, and enter as a club like everyone else: I don't like this option at all (see the "good for homebrewing?" question). But many of my club members do. So do many of the larger clubs who know they can beat us. But it's also bad for the BN Company and leaves me in a bit of a lurch.

So at least you know where I am coming from and what I have proposed to my club to see if we can help the situation. For now, I will let them decide, but ultimately, I may have to form a dictatorship and make the best decision for them, if necessary. Since I'm also a member of the club, I will weigh in heavily on their decision.

There is one other thing I need to chime in on ( I told you this would be long as s***) and I'm a little sensitive about this one. There is a gross misrepresentation in this thread about what happened at the members meeting, and who it was directed towards. First, attend the members meeting people!! Not only does it give you the chance to participate in the organization you belong to, but you also then don't have to be part of the rumor mill like a high school freshman.

The topic of diversity in the AHA had been a theme throughout the week for GC members like myself, the AHA, and a panel presentation too. At the meeting there was an AHA member (and an awesome woman btw) who stood up to explain a disgusting commentary she overheard that week. The conversation actually occurred not at the conference, but in the line for my anniversary event. She made it clear that she was not directing this towards me, nor does she think this is a BN problem, but that it was a direct example of the kinds of things that the AHA should be looking out for as we look for ways to better serve women and other underrepresented groups in attendance of AHA events. There were other examples that happened at the conference as well, but this was the one she chose to bring up as it was a particularly offensive exchange. (see, I told you should attend the meeting. If you had, you wouldn't be sitting there dying to know what was said!! But I digress).

Now, I am not a member of the Diversity Subcommittee, but the person on the panel who is (also an amazing woman), became emotional (and rightly so) during the exchange and I stepped in to reply to the comment. I was the other person there qualified to do so given my educational background in gender studies and communication (yeah, I know, total shocker). So I chimed in and addressed the topic on behalf of the Governing Committee. In other words, I did what you elected me to do. So to read here that "Justin got an earful" and other such insinuations that any of that had to do with the BN, me, or even remotely related to this topic of my club, is frankly more disheartening to me than any of the boos or other negative reactions toward my club.

So while I respect your right to express your opinions openly here, I do ask that you kindly get your facts straight before spreading rumors about what happened at a meeting you didn't attend. This particular rumor is hurtful not only to my feelings (yeah, feelings, sorry), but to my effectiveness as your representative on the GC. I'm happy to be evaluated by my performance and effectiveness, but I do request that they be things that actually happened. And thank you to Drew for sticking up for me in this regard here in the thread.

Alright. Wow, s*** that's long. I'm, going to go back to my Stern-style whatever it is that we do now. Thanks for your time. Also, please remember that your voice will be heard by the Competition Sub-Committee about what you would like to see happen differently, and I am also always open to hearing intelligent commentary on the subject of the BN, the BN Club and the San Francisco Giants. My email is justin @ the company name

J
An eloquent statement. Well done Justin.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Footballandhops on June 25, 2015, 01:48:47 AM
Why is everyone so butt hurt over some booing?

Does no one here watch sports? Do winners not get booed all the time? It's par for the course, it is to be expected. I see the BN club like the Yankees; keep on booing and they will just keep on winning.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 25, 2015, 01:51:32 AM
Why is everyone so butt hurt over some booing?

Does no one here watch sports? Do winners not get booed all the time? It's par for the course, it is to be expected. I see the BN club like the Yankees; keep on booing and they will just keep on winning.
Like I said, QUAFF was booed, so was the St. Paul club.

Yeah, it may make them compete harder.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 25, 2015, 02:40:02 AM

Why is everyone so butt hurt over some booing?

Does no one here watch sports? Do winners not get booed all the time? It's par for the course, it is to be expected. I see the BN club like the Yankees; keep on booing and they will just keep on winning.

1.   Not justifying booing in pro sports but those guys make millions for their  performance and homebrewers don't get paid for NHC ribbons and medals.

2.  Butt hurt?  Not sure what to make of that statement. 
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: tschmidlin on June 25, 2015, 08:51:47 AM
Hi everyone, for those who don't know me I am co-chair of the AHA GC Competition Subcommittee.    We are focused on the competition and awards and make suggestions to the AHA for changes from year to year.

Yes, we are paying attention to the discussion and I just finished reading through 20 pages of stuff.  The competition committee is going to look at this issue and see what recommendations we want to make to the AHA.

Which brings me to ask you to help me out on something, since I think it is helpful to talk about what you think is worth a club award.  Is the issue that you feel like it is not an achievement worth recognizing, or is it that the same club keeps winning over and over again?  If instead of "Club of the Year", the award was called "Club with the Most Points in the Competition of the Year" would that be better for you?  Because that is all the award is, by definition.  "Homebrew Club of the Year will be awarded to the club that accumulates the most total points in all categories of beer, mead and cider in the First and Final Rounds."

Personally, I have no problem with the award the way it is.  It is straightforward and favors large clubs, the larger the better. That is the nature of it, and because that is the nature of it I have never felt it was the most important award given out for the competition.  Its importance is further diminished by the introduction of newer awards that recognize other achievements (Radegast) and level the playing field (Gambrinus).

What doesn't make it seem unimportant is the name, Club of the Year sounds like a big deal.  I would be perfectly happy renaming the Gambrinus award Club of the Year, and calling the club with the most points in the competition the Gambrinus award winner or some other name.

So think about it.  Do we want to recognize the club with the most points in the competition or not?  If not, what should we be recognizing?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: JT on June 25, 2015, 10:26:08 AM
As I've stated earlier, I would be in favor of removing this award altogether.  If it is always going to favor the largest club why not just make a Largest Club award?  Or go with the Club with the Most Competition Points but also announce the number of entries. 
I guess I just don't get why it exists if all it is proving is which club can grow the largest. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 25, 2015, 10:30:44 AM
Tom,

Good to see your post.

How about a Pan Galactic Club Award? Take the COTY, Radegast, and Gambrinus awards, mash those together in some fashion, and out comes the winner based on most points, best average, and awesomeness. The trophy would be a towel.




Coffee has not kicked in yet. I'm half serious though. The award would be based on the competition and what they do the fest of the year to promote the hobby.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Phil_M on June 25, 2015, 10:44:24 AM
What doesn't make it seem unimportant is the name, Club of the Year sounds like a big deal.  I would be perfectly happy renaming the Gambrinus award Club of the Year, and calling the club with the most points in the competition the Gambrinus award winner or some other name.

I think I prefer that solution. That way, the player field is level for what sounds like the biggest award, and large clubs are free to encourage as much participation as possible competing for their award. Isn't that the idea of a homebrew club? Encouraging as many people as possible to brew good beer?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 25, 2015, 12:05:00 PM
I think it would be cool, and meaningful if this award had a limit on the number of beers entered by each club like say 10. That way each club would actually be doing something together and it would not just be a tally of individual entries.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 25, 2015, 12:29:16 PM
Why is everyone so butt hurt over some booing?

Does no one here watch sports? Do winners not get booed all the time? It's par for the course, it is to be expected. I see the BN club like the Yankees; keep on booing and they will just keep on winning.

Statements like this get you removed from my Christmas card list (Red Sox fan).  ;D  Only thing worse would be being compared to the Cardinals (just kidding Amada).

I hope we never see the hatred that people have towards sports rivals in homebrewing.  Although a lot of people are in clubs and compete against one another, I've always seen homebrewing as a community trying to advance the hobby and brew some great beer, mead, cider, etc.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 25, 2015, 12:36:43 PM
What doesn't make it seem unimportant is the name, Club of the Year sounds like a big deal.  I would be perfectly happy renaming the Gambrinus award Club of the Year, and calling the club with the most points in the competition the Gambrinus award winner or some other name.

So think about it.  Do we want to recognize the club with the most points in the competition or not?  If not, what should we be recognizing?
Rename Gambrinus to Homebrew Club of the Year and call the current COTY the "Juggernaut" award.  I even have the trophy picked out:
(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090729145929/marveldatabase/images/7/72/Cain_Marko_(Earth-6109).jpg)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 25, 2015, 01:14:45 PM


So think about it.  Do we want to recognize the club with the most points in the competition or not?  If not, what should we be recognizing?

Final Round Points.  Medals, not ribbons.

2015:  Austin Zealots, runner-up St Paul
2014:  Wichita Homebrewers Organization, runner-up Minnesota HBA
2013:  Tie between DOZE and BN, I give it to Brewing Network because they had more medals (5/4)
2012:  Brewing Network, runner-up St Paul
2011:  QUAFF, runner-up Brewing Network
2010:  at this point we have Gordon still competing, but winner is still DOZE over St Paul
2009:  haven't done the math, but I know Gordon had 7 medals so I'll assume St Paul won

it still favors bigger clubs, but they actually have to WIN.
So since 2010, three of six would stay the same.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 25, 2015, 01:22:21 PM
From what I have seen, the BN and quaff had a similar number of total entries, just quaff had more medals compared to the BN. This sounds like a sour grapes argument to me. Maybe quaff should use this to step up their game and destroy it next year.

Can this thread be closed and moved to a survey that gets forwarded to the gc. I'm afraid that Tom's post is only going to encourage 300 more posts of the same discussion.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 25, 2015, 01:26:05 PM
From what I have seen, the BN and quaff had a similar number of total entries, just quaff had more medals compared to the BN. This sounds like a sour grapes argument to me. Maybe quaff should use this to step up their game and destroy it next year.

Can this thread be closed and moved to a survey that gets forwarded to the gc. I'm afraid that Tom's post is only going to encourage 300 more posts of the same discussion.
or at least let's start posting constructive ideas instead of continuing to advance arguments that the current system is broken i think that has been adequately established.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Phil_M on June 25, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
I agree with closing the thread, disagree with starting a survey. That would present only a few possible solutions, and serve to silence some other options.

I'm in favor of simply contacting those in charge, making them aware of the issue, (and it seems they are aware) and letting them do their job for now. They can then bounce a few possible solutions off us in the future.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Crofty on June 25, 2015, 01:51:12 PM
Sounds to me (after reading the entire thread) is that the biggest issue experienced here is poor sportsmanship.

This thread seems to be based around perceptions that the COTY is the most important award because it is last o the line up. Perception is a powerful thing. How about you move it to an earlier slot, and the gambrinus to last award on the schedule?

The other main item I've read is with regards to people booing... Simple resolution. Take names (some of you know exactly who these people are, they're in you're clubs and sat at your tables before they decided to act like 2 year olds and boo.... Perhaps you thought it was amusing, but how would you feel?) and ensure those individuals are not afforded seats at the banquet again (I don't give a toss if they're winning a medal or not, they're out for life). It's supposed to be the classier part of the conference, f'ing act like it is.

Seems simple to me. Am I missing something? Think about it.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 25, 2015, 01:57:52 PM
I'm trying to figure out why this COTY thing has me so angry. [...]
I'm trying to figure out why it has anyone angry.  On both sides.  Maybe my perspective is different because my club really doesn't have that many people entering comps (especially NHC).  It's probably similar to the way certain sports teams or figures are thought about.  In the current events category, the Patriots and Tom Brady would be an example.  Some people will love them no matter what and some people will hate them no matter what.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 25, 2015, 02:00:47 PM
I'm trying to figure out why this COTY thing has me so angry. [...]
I'm trying to figure out why it has anyone angry.  On both sides.  Maybe my perspective is different because my club really doesn't have that many people entering comps (especially NHC).  It's probably similar to the way certain sports teams or figures are thought about.  In the current events category, the Patriots and Tom Brady would be an example.  Some people will love them no matter what and some people will hate them no matter what.
I'm not the least angry but see an oppurtunity to make a weird and silly award more meaningful and a chance for clubs to do something together.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Crofty on June 25, 2015, 02:07:43 PM
The award is what it is, why change it? If you feel there's a sector not being awarded that shod be then lobby for a new award to reward that achievement... Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 25, 2015, 02:07:58 PM
or at least let's start posting constructive ideas instead of continuing to advance arguments that the current system is broken i think that has been adequately established.

I don't think there is agreement that the current award system is broken. In fact, I've read the comments from some of the GC members to say otherwise.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: micsager on June 25, 2015, 03:03:28 PM
Seems to me that most of the arguments about changing the rules can be summed up like this:

"What can we do to make it so the BN doesn't win next year?"

That kind of seems like poor sportsmanship to me.

The consensus in this thread, having just skimmed it, seems to be more along the lines of "What can we do to ensure that clubs of all sizes compete on a level playing field?"

True, but it's focused on the BN.  My local club has less than 20 folks.  We'll never compete with the likes of Quaff or the Falcons.  And I'm OK with that.  The thing that gets me, is the BNA cannot shoose what happens at their meetings, nor elect leaders.  All decision making is controlled by Justin.  Now, in my view, he does great things for the homebrewing community, and I wouldn't be where I am without his podcasts.  But most clubs, the members have a greater voice......
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: S. cerevisiae on June 25, 2015, 03:41:51 PM
My local club has less than 20 folks.

I would love to be part of a club that has less than 20 members (preferably a dozen or less).  I have been thinking about starting my own tiny by invitation only micro-club in order to be able to keep the roster small.  I am just more comfortable in smaller, more intimate groups.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: tommymorris on June 25, 2015, 03:47:30 PM
The AHA competition subcommittee email address is available on the AHA website at https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/membership/aha-governing-committee/

The email address is ahagc-competition@brewersassociation.org

I emailed them directly.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 25, 2015, 04:17:08 PM
Seems to me that all Justin can do is suggest this or that. I suppose he could tell the AHA to remove his company name from the list of registered clubs. But joe blow could register BN Army as a club. Or any fictitious "club" they so choose. The BN Army is really just a word describing people who are fans. To join one simply says they are BN Army. This points back to what I was trying to say, if there are rules defining "club" for the purpose of COTY, who is going to police that? Given that COTY apparently doesnt mean much and does more harm than good, perhaps it has outlived its usefulness. As to the booing, I suppose that will take care of itself. Either its acceptable behavior like at a pro wrestling event, or its not and peer pressure will eliminate it.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 25, 2015, 04:37:48 PM
What doesn't make it seem unimportant is the name, Club of the Year sounds like a big deal.  I would be perfectly happy renaming the Gambrinus award Club of the Year, and calling the club with the most points in the competition the Gambrinus award winner or some other name.

That would be my preferred solution. Gambrinus becomes Club of the Year (or not, whatever), and COTY is renamed to something like NHC Champion Club.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: seefish on June 25, 2015, 05:26:38 PM
Quaff was like 8 points away...reading the parts of this thread that I did you'd think the BN won by a landslide.  I really don't understand the arguments or the booing.  There are other awards that better fit your club.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 25, 2015, 05:35:52 PM
Quaff was like 8 points away...reading the parts of this thread that I did you'd think the BN won by a landslide.  I really don't understand the arguments or the booing.  There are other awards that better fit your club.

The booing is shameful and a rule change specifically designed to exclude the BN (no online clubs, e.g.) is just the procedural equivalent.

The argument that most people (in this thread, anyway) seem to agree with is that it doesn't make much sense to have an award called "Club of the Year" if at most three or four clubs have a chance at competing for it.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 25, 2015, 06:04:51 PM
Seems to me that all Justin can do is suggest this or that. I suppose he could tell the AHA to remove his company name from the list of registered clubs. But joe blow could register BN Army as a club. Or any fictitious "club" they so choose. The BN Army is really just a word describing people who are fans. To join one simply says they are BN Army. This points back to what I was trying to say, if there are rules defining "club" for the purpose of COTY, who is going to police that? Given that COTY apparently doesnt mean much and does more harm than good, perhaps it has outlived its usefulness. As to the booing, I suppose that will take care of itself. Either its acceptable behavior like at a pro wrestling event, or its not and peer pressure will eliminate it.
I think this is what irritates people about calling the BN a club.  That is just not a homebrew club to me.  I really feel like BN being treated on level grounds with real homebrew clubs is againsts the spirit of such club awards.  It's like starting a campaign to have everyone enter their beers under 'Biggest Club Ever'... then once everyone does and you win a club award is that really in the spirit of the award?  It's simply not a club.  My club has no chance of winning something like COTY but I would prefer under any iteration that it goes to an actual homebrew club vs a bunch of people just typing the name in that field because they don't have a club.

Entering beers in the NHC under no club doesn't exclude anyone from anything.  I know it will be said they are excluded from the club awards but since they are not really in a club they should be. A club is more than just a name you enter your beers under.

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.

I don't wish to rehash this all on this thread... If you feel strongly about something and want to discuss PM me.  I think there are some good ideas to make COTY more meaningful and fair in this thread and I didn't want to muck it up... but I felt I needed to express why seeing BN treated as a club is unsettling to me.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 25, 2015, 06:19:18 PM
I think this is what irritates people about calling the BN a club.  That is just not a homebrew club to me.  I really feel like BN being treated on level grounds with real homebrew clubs is againsts the spirit of such club awards.  It's like starting a campaign to have everyone enter their beers under 'Biggest Club Ever'... then once everyone does and you win a club award is that really in the spirit of the award?  It's simply not a club.  My club has no chance of winning something like COTY but I would prefer under any iteration that it goes to an actual homebrew club vs a bunch of people just typing the name in that field because they don't have a club.

Maybe this is a reason why COTY should go away entirely. COTY was born in a time when most homebrew clubs were fairly small and generally homebrewing spread because people joined the club or met people from the club who brought them into the fold. Clubs could also enter as many entries as they could so the size of the club was not as significant as the number of ribbons won. Many people get into homebrewing and discuss it with people outside of the traditional club model. The sense of connection people feel towards a particular forum or podcast or whatever can be just as valid as the connection people feel with those they communicate with online. Rather than asking whether the BN Army is a club we should ask whether it even matters. Maybe the traditional club no longer fills such an important role that we need to reward any group for coming together and nominating officers. Perhaps homebrewing has expanded so much that we no longer need to cloister physically to share meaningful information and promote the hobby.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 25, 2015, 06:30:02 PM
Seems to me that all Justin can do is suggest this or that. I suppose he could tell the AHA to remove his company name from the list of registered clubs. But joe blow could register BN Army as a club. Or any fictitious "club" they so choose. The BN Army is really just a word describing people who are fans. To join one simply says they are BN Army. This points back to what I was trying to say, if there are rules defining "club" for the purpose of COTY, who is going to police that? Given that COTY apparently doesnt mean much and does more harm than good, perhaps it has outlived its usefulness. As to the booing, I suppose that will take care of itself. Either its acceptable behavior like at a pro wrestling event, or its not and peer pressure will eliminate it.

Maybe this is a reason why COTY should go away entirely. COTY was born in a time when most homebrew clubs were fairly small and generally homebrewing spread because people joined the club or met people from the club who brought them into the fold. Clubs could also enter as many entries as they could so the size of the club was not as significant as the number of ribbons won. Many people get into homebrewing and discuss it with people outside of the traditional club model. The sense of connection people feel towards a particular forum or podcast or whatever can be just as valid as the connection people feel with those they communicate with online. Rather than asking whether the BN Army is a club we should ask whether it even matters. Maybe the traditional club no longer fills such an important role that we need to reward any group for coming together and nominating officers. Perhaps homebrewing has expanded so much that we no longer need to cloister physically to share meaningful information and promote the hobby.
I agree you can gain a lot from online groups and even the BN podcasts/forums. I still hold that that doesn't make it a homebrew club.  I don't see a need for the award to go away altogether. It should be a competitive and fun award and instead it's being dominated by this coalition.

I also agree as it currently stands the award will almost always go to the club that can flood the most regions. I feel that should be changed to at least only look at medals in the final round.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Phil_M on June 25, 2015, 06:38:34 PM
But what sort of precedent does that set? If we lop off the BN, something else will follow. Folks will end up griping about whatever head springs up to replace them.

I don't have any issue with online clubs. Really, how are they any different than a large club where not everyone attends meeting and there's some sort of newsletter/email for those who can't make it?

I say leave the rules the same, just reduce the prominence of the award/make Gambrinus more prominent. Anything else just seems to be unfair to either the BN, or those members of the homebrewing community who for whatever reason aren't a part of a "traditional" club.

I'm not affiliated with any club, except this forum. I don't have time. If I did enter a competition, I'd put this forum down as my club. If I had the time to join the local club, I would, and that would be what I'd enter on entry sheets. I doubt anyone who is a regular participant in a local "traditional" club is writing BN on their entry sheets.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: tommymorris on June 25, 2015, 06:42:32 PM

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.
I agree, but, if you define "club" it maybe difficult to enforce the definition.

Also, I think if the BN club organized themselves; online meetings, a board of directors, etc. they would start to be much closer to any reasonable definition of a club that could be written.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 25, 2015, 06:48:01 PM
Yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion but if those in the BN Army feel like they are a club then it's a club.  Like was mentioned earlier, the sense of connection I get from the BN is just as valid as any you get from your club and I'm getting tired of trying to justify that to people that just don't like the BN winning or whatever.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 25, 2015, 06:54:59 PM
I think it would be cool, and meaningful if this award had a limit on the number of beers entered by each club like say 10. That way each club would actually be doing something together and it would not just be a tally of individual entries.
This discourages folks from entering. Which 10 people get to enter? Who decides that?

So think about it.  Do we want to recognize the club with the most points in the competition or not?  If not, what should we be recognizing?
Kinda wondering if you actually did read all 20 pages of this thread because I'm pretty sure that most folks chatting here clearly state they want this to be a competitive award and not solely be for the 2 clubs that  actually have enough entries to win this award. If it's going to remain a tonnage style award, then I would like to see Radegast and Gambrinus elevated with more pomp and circumstance as both those awards are equally achievable for all clubs and AHA members, unlike COTY.

Quaff was like 8 points away...reading the parts of this thread that I did you'd think the BN won by a landslide.  I really don't understand the arguments or the booing.  There are other awards that better fit your club.
The next closest club was 78 points behind QUAFF (despite dominating the final round). So basically this award is winnable by 2 out of the 1700 AHA clubs nationwide, which seems a tad bit narrow-minded IMHO.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: melliott2811 on June 25, 2015, 07:11:58 PM
So, is the BN a business or a club, or is it both?  The problem isn't that the BN has active membership or that the BN has won several years in a row.  No one is booing the individual brewers that choose to enter under the BN name.  The problem is that the whole conference has turned into a BN marketing campaign.  The first evening event of the week is ticketed BN party, then BN is featured prominently in the exhibition hall selling merch, then BN wins the competition that they happen to be streaming and Justin gets up on stage to further promote the brand (no, not everyone should talk either or the banquet would be too long).  Sure, the GC could change things, but Justin also has influence there.  The solution isn't to ban anyone just to have a couple other clubs take the BN's place.  The solution is to separate the business from the club.  I am not sure how the BN can even call itself a club since members have no control.  Make Justin control the business side and elect a real board for the BN club that consists of active members (or something to that effect).  That change could also be a means to facilitate regional BN clubs if that was the way they wanted to go, but I don't want to have to force them to split up.  There is just too much conflict of interest.

As an aside, maybe the GC should reweigh points to focus more on final round than first round.  I don't know how the points shake out exactly, but seems to me that clubs that win four or five medals in final shouldn't be losing to a club that won two just because the latter put so much more in first round.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 25, 2015, 07:13:15 PM

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.
I agree, but, if you define "club" it maybe difficult to enforce the definition.

Also, I think if the BN club organized themselves; online meetings, a board of directors, etc. they would start to be much closer to any reasonable definition of a club that could be written.

But none of this is required by the AHA, so the BN club is a club, just like the 1700 other clubs recognized by the AHA. The only thing that would change their status is if the AHA were to actually define what a club is and these clubs did not meet these requirements. Granted that isn't going to change the mind of anyone who does not think online clubs are clubs in the "traditional form," but doesn't change the reality that they are all currently AHA recognized clubs.
Title: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 25, 2015, 07:16:09 PM
Kinda wondering if you actually did read all 20 pages of this thread

Again, if you want the rules changed then write a letter to the Governing Committee or the Competition Committee.  Few members on those boards are going to read this forum and with over 300 posts even the ones that do aren't going to remember every detail.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 25, 2015, 07:16:27 PM

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.
I agree, but, if you define "club" it maybe difficult to enforce the definition.

Also, I think if the BN club organized themselves; online meetings, a board of directors, etc. they would start to be much closer to any reasonable definition of a club that could be written.
I would agree with that.  If it were an actual club with organization and structure.  But as it is (or at least how I've perceived it) it's just a bunch of people writing down they are in the same club because they listen to the same podcasts and (possibly) use the same forums.

I'm not saying there should be a rule to exclude them.  I was only bringing it up as to what I think the real reason for the 'hate' towards them winning stuff like COTY.  I think, at least for me, it's mostly because they are perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as not being a real club.  I personally feel like it's not a club in the spirit of the competition.

Quote
Yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion but if those in the BN Army feel like they are a club then it's a club.  Like was mentioned earlier, the sense of connection I get from the BN is just as valid as any you get from your club and I'm getting tired of trying to justify that to people that just don't like the BN winning or whatever.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on people "feeling like they are a club" making it a real club.  I have no doubt you can/do have a connection with the podcasts and even members of their forums etc... I don't see that as a club.

ok ok... No more drama for me.  This is my last post on the issue.  Since it's my last post on this... I'll also sneak this in... I felt the booing at the awards ceremony was for the AHA for allowing what is perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as a non-club to win COTY again.  Maybe I'm wrong but that's what it seemed like to me from conversations at the event itself.  The people that were on stage for BN I don't think we even a factor as the disgust was at the absurdity of the award.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 25, 2015, 07:34:53 PM
Again, if you want the rules changed then write a letter to the Governing Committee or the Competition Committee.  Few members on those boards are going to read this forum and with over 300 posts even the ones that do aren't going to remember every detail.

I wrote the GC Comp committee last week. In my comment, I was referencing tschmidlin's statement that he had read through all 20 pages yet his comments seemed to be asking questions that many of us had already addressed within those 20 pages.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Nacho on June 25, 2015, 07:50:40 PM

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.
I agree, but, if you define "club" it maybe difficult to enforce the definition.

Also, I think if the BN club organized themselves; online meetings, a board of directors, etc. they would start to be much closer to any reasonable definition of a club that could be written.
I would agree with that.  If it were an actual club with organization and structure.  But as it is (or at least how I've perceived it) it's just a bunch of people writing down they are in the same club because they listen to the same podcasts and (possibly) use the same forums.

I'm not saying there should be a rule to exclude them.  I was only bringing it up as to what I think the real reason for the 'hate' towards them winning stuff like COTY.  I think, at least for me, it's mostly because they are perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as not being a real club.  I personally feel like it's not a club in the spirit of the competition.

Quote
Yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion but if those in the BN Army feel like they are a club then it's a club.  Like was mentioned earlier, the sense of connection I get from the BN is just as valid as any you get from your club and I'm getting tired of trying to justify that to people that just don't like the BN winning or whatever.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on people "feeling like they are a club" making it a real club.  I have no doubt you can/do have a connection with the podcasts and even members of their forums etc... I don't see that as a club.

ok ok... No more drama for me.  This is my last post on the issue.  Since it's my last post on this... I'll also sneak this in... I felt the booing at the awards ceremony was for the AHA for allowing what is perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as a non-club to win COTY again.  Maybe I'm wrong but that's what it seemed like to me from conversations at the event itself.  The people that were on stage for BN I don't think we even a factor as the disgust was at the absurdity of the award.

You had no problem using the BN Army to try to get elected to the GC though... hmm.. The poor sportsmanship and flat out adult tantrums on this thread is embarrassing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 25, 2015, 07:51:43 PM
Justin said he's not taking the stage or mic for COTY again. So, that problem is solved. We can stop hammering out that detail.

Justin doesn't control the club anymore than he controlled me entering a couple beers under the club name. I wasnt asked to join, I wasnt asked to participate. 

For the sake of COTY, and under current COTY rules, the BN is a club, regardless of anyone's feelings. Otherwise we wouldn't have won five times in a row.

If you knew anything about it you would know that COTY is an albatross around the BNs neck. Justin and company were hoping to lose so the drama could be pointed elsewhere.

Clubs, real clubs, that want to be awesome clubs and expand their membership and win this award, should stop pouting and do the work to clean up their act and attract people away from things like the BN. No one was forced to choose BN as their club for COTY.

The current importance of COTY rests solely on the people who are making it a big deal. If you want other awards to matter more, spend more time talking about those awards, and when they announce COTY just sit there. Cricket cricket... and dont mention it again. Don't whine that someone else should make it less important for you.

What is this? As you read up on the latest biggest event in homebrewing, 99% of it is about how everyone got screwed out of an award, and how the booing was upseting, and the rooms sucked, and they didn't teach me enough,  and there was a moron in line for an event before AHA, etc etc. A small percentage was about how fun it was and the people are great. Come on people! This is supposed to be fun, supposed to be a hobby, supposed to be a bit of an escape from the daily grind.

Its a good thing my Dad isnt in charge. He'd just cancel the whole thing.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 25, 2015, 08:09:11 PM
Justin said he's not taking the stage or mic for COTY again. So, that problem is solved. We can stop hammering out that detail.

Justin doesn't control the club anymore than he controlled me entering a couple beers under the club name. I wasnt asked to join, I wasnt asked to participate. 

For the sake of COTY, and under current COTY rules, the BN is a club, regardless of anyone's feelings. Otherwise we wouldn't have won five times in a row.

If you knew anything about it you would know that COTY is an albatross around the BNs neck. Justin and company were hoping to lose so the drama could be pointed elsewhere.

Clubs, real clubs, that want to be awesome clubs and expand their membership and win this award, should stop pouting and do the work to clean up their act and attract people away from things like the BN. No one was forced to choose BN as their club for COTY.

The current importance of COTY rests solely on the people who are making it a big deal. If you want other awards to matter more, spend more time talking about those awards, and when they announce COTY just sit there. Cricket cricket... and dont mention it again. Don't whine that someone else should make it less important for you.

What is this? As you read up on the latest biggest event in homebrewing, 99% of it is about how everyone got screwed out of an award, and how the booing was upseting, and the rooms sucked, and they didn't teach me enough,  and there was a moron in line for an event before AHA, etc etc. A small percentage was about how fun it was and the people are great. Come on people! This is supposed to be fun, supposed to be a hobby, supposed to be a bit of an escape from the daily grind.

Its a good thing my Dad isnt in charge. He'd just cancel the whole thing.

OK I lied... 1 more post... Only because I sent this as a PM earlier.. then it came up again..

I agree it's not against any rules.  Just the spirit of the thing.  Kind of like having a goalie in hockey that is 1500lbs and just blocks the whole net.  Yes there is no rule against the 'wall' goalie... but it would be against the spirit of the game.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 25, 2015, 08:18:11 PM
So, is the BN a business or a club, or is it both?  The problem isn't that the BN has active membership or that the BN has won several years in a row.  No one is booing the individual brewers that choose to enter under the BN name.  The problem is that the whole conference has turned into a BN marketing campaign.  The first evening event of the week is ticketed BN party, then BN is featured prominently in the exhibition hall selling merch, then BN wins the competition that they happen to be streaming and Justin gets up on stage to further promote the brand (no, not everyone should talk either or the banquet would be too long).  Sure, the GC could change things, but Justin also has influence there.

Did you read the second paragraph on Justin's post?  They get a booth in trade for providing this service to the AHA, which would either have to do it themselves or not at all.  How is the Brewing Network having a booth, selling merch any different from every other vendor in there? 

The BN anniversary party used to be separate, celebrating each anniversary date after the BN started in June 2005.  Once they started doing remotes from the conference, it made sense to do the BNA party during that week, outside the official dates of the conference (last year was a special circumstance).  What about all the other events on Tuesday and Wednesday...should we take them off the AHA site as well?

I disagree with not having everyone speak too.  I wish WHALES and Mark Schoppe (love the helmet by the way) would have said something...it's definitely their time to enjoy. 

And booing during the COTY announcement is booing those brewers who won, even if just by association.    Who would want to go up on stage to accept the award and be boo'd?  Kinda takes the fun out of it.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 25, 2015, 08:22:25 PM
By the way PTE just won best beer, AGAIN! Feel free to join the BN and read my rant about that over there.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 25, 2015, 08:37:54 PM
Not fair IPA's are always on top because of the sheer number of IPA's in the market.  We should limit the number of IPA's allowed in so a real beer like Tank 7 has a chance to win.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: theDarkSide on June 25, 2015, 08:39:43 PM
By the way PTE just won best beer, AGAIN! Feel free to join the BN and read my rant about that over there.

I just saw that and said, "Jim must be drinking early today" :)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 25, 2015, 09:05:58 PM
By the way PTE just won best beer, AGAIN! Feel free to join the BN and read my rant about that over there.

I just saw that and said, "Jim must be drinking early today" :)
It's 5o'clock somewhere
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 25, 2015, 09:12:27 PM
By the way PTE just won best beer, AGAIN! Feel free to join the BN and read my rant about that over there.
Wish I could, but I'll have to wait until I get home.  I already pointed out the process last night for some Facebook friends.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Nacho on June 25, 2015, 09:23:08 PM
Justin said he's not taking the stage or mic for COTY again. So, that problem is solved. We can stop hammering out that detail.

Justin doesn't control the club anymore than he controlled me entering a couple beers under the club name. I wasnt asked to join, I wasnt asked to participate. 

For the sake of COTY, and under current COTY rules, the BN is a club, regardless of anyone's feelings. Otherwise we wouldn't have won five times in a row.

If you knew anything about it you would know that COTY is an albatross around the BNs neck. Justin and company were hoping to lose so the drama could be pointed elsewhere.

Clubs, real clubs, that want to be awesome clubs and expand their membership and win this award, should stop pouting and do the work to clean up their act and attract people away from things like the BN. No one was forced to choose BN as their club for COTY.

The current importance of COTY rests solely on the people who are making it a big deal. If you want other awards to matter more, spend more time talking about those awards, and when they announce COTY just sit there. Cricket cricket... and dont mention it again. Don't whine that someone else should make it less important for you.

What is this? As you read up on the latest biggest event in homebrewing, 99% of it is about how everyone got screwed out of an award, and how the booing was upseting, and the rooms sucked, and they didn't teach me enough,  and there was a moron in line for an event before AHA, etc etc. A small percentage was about how fun it was and the people are great. Come on people! This is supposed to be fun, supposed to be a hobby, supposed to be a bit of an escape from the daily grind.

Its a good thing my Dad isnt in charge. He'd just cancel the whole thing.

OK I lied... 1 more post... Only because I sent this as a PM earlier.. then it came up again..

I agree it's not against any rules.  Just the spirit of the thing.  Kind of like having a goalie in hockey that is 1500lbs and just blocks the whole net.  Yes there is no rule against the 'wall' goalie... but it would be against the spirit of the game.


Are you seriously talking "spirit of things" when you trying to get the BN disqualified as a club? The BN is a 1500# goalie that brews amazing beer.  To say we're not a club is just pure jealousy and it's the typical I didn't win so I'll whine about it and stomp my feet until I get my way.

You want to compete against the BN, I recommend you up your brewing game. Maybe listen to a few brew strong episodes.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 25, 2015, 09:46:15 PM
I hear footsteps, a moderator walking over to push the locked thread button. Which probably should have happened after reading the title of this thread.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: a10t2 on June 25, 2015, 09:53:40 PM
Some context for those who haven't listened: This thread was mentioned by a caller on Monday's Session podcast on the BN.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 25, 2015, 10:09:12 PM
Justin said he's not taking the stage or mic for COTY again. So, that problem is solved. We can stop hammering out that detail.

Justin doesn't control the club anymore than he controlled me entering a couple beers under the club name. I wasnt asked to join, I wasnt asked to participate. 

For the sake of COTY, and under current COTY rules, the BN is a club, regardless of anyone's feelings. Otherwise we wouldn't have won five times in a row.

If you knew anything about it you would know that COTY is an albatross around the BNs neck. Justin and company were hoping to lose so the drama could be pointed elsewhere.

Clubs, real clubs, that want to be awesome clubs and expand their membership and win this award, should stop pouting and do the work to clean up their act and attract people away from things like the BN. No one was forced to choose BN as their club for COTY.

The current importance of COTY rests solely on the people who are making it a big deal. If you want other awards to matter more, spend more time talking about those awards, and when they announce COTY just sit there. Cricket cricket... and dont mention it again. Don't whine that someone else should make it less important for you.

What is this? As you read up on the latest biggest event in homebrewing, 99% of it is about how everyone got screwed out of an award, and how the booing was upseting, and the rooms sucked, and they didn't teach me enough,  and there was a moron in line for an event before AHA, etc etc. A small percentage was about how fun it was and the people are great. Come on people! This is supposed to be fun, supposed to be a hobby, supposed to be a bit of an escape from the daily grind.

Its a good thing my Dad isnt in charge. He'd just cancel the whole thing.

OK I lied... 1 more post... Only because I sent this as a PM earlier.. then it came up again..

I agree it's not against any rules.  Just the spirit of the thing.  Kind of like having a goalie in hockey that is 1500lbs and just blocks the whole net.  Yes there is no rule against the 'wall' goalie... but it would be against the spirit of the game.


Are you seriously talking "spirit of things" when you trying to get the BN disqualified as a club? The BN is a 1500# goalie that brews amazing beer.  To say we're not a club is just pure jealousy and it's the typical I didn't win so I'll whine about it and stomp my feet until I get my way.

You want to compete against the BN, I recommend you up your brewing game. Maybe listen to a few brew strong episodes.
Actually no.  I stated that I didn't see the need to change rules for what is and is not a club.  I only offered my opinion on why people hate the BN calling itself a club....

As to the 'up your brewing game' comment... BN only had 2 medals... To me it's not really relevant though.  I mean I know there are plenty of good brewers that enter under the BN and that don't.  Quality of beer and number of medals are not what my comments were directed towards.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 25, 2015, 10:16:16 PM

Justin said he's not taking the stage or mic for COTY again. So, that problem is solved. We can stop hammering out that detail.

Justin doesn't control the club anymore than he controlled me entering a couple beers under the club name. I wasnt asked to join, I wasnt asked to participate. 

For the sake of COTY, and under current COTY rules, the BN is a club, regardless of anyone's feelings. Otherwise we wouldn't have won five times in a row.

If you knew anything about it you would know that COTY is an albatross around the BNs neck. Justin and company were hoping to lose so the drama could be pointed elsewhere.

Clubs, real clubs, that want to be awesome clubs and expand their membership and win this award, should stop pouting and do the work to clean up their act and attract people away from things like the BN. No one was forced to choose BN as their club for COTY.

The current importance of COTY rests solely on the people who are making it a big deal. If you want other awards to matter more, spend more time talking about those awards, and when they announce COTY just sit there. Cricket cricket... and dont mention it again. Don't whine that someone else should make it less important for you.

What is this? As you read up on the latest biggest event in homebrewing, 99% of it is about how everyone got screwed out of an award, and how the booing was upseting, and the rooms sucked, and they didn't teach me enough,  and there was a moron in line for an event before AHA, etc etc. A small percentage was about how fun it was and the people are great. Come on people! This is supposed to be fun, supposed to be a hobby, supposed to be a bit of an escape from the daily grind.

Its a good thing my Dad isnt in charge. He'd just cancel the whole thing.

OK I lied... 1 more post... Only because I sent this as a PM earlier.. then it came up again..

I agree it's not against any rules.  Just the spirit of the thing.  Kind of like having a goalie in hockey that is 1500lbs and just blocks the whole net.  Yes there is no rule against the 'wall' goalie... but it would be against the spirit of the game.


Are you seriously talking "spirit of things" when you trying to get the BN disqualified as a club? The BN is a 1500# goalie that brews amazing beer.  To say we're not a club is just pure jealousy and it's the typical I didn't win so I'll whine about it and stomp my feet until I get my way.

You want to compete against the BN, I recommend you up your brewing game. Maybe listen to a few brew strong episodes.
Actually no.  I stated that I didn't see the need to change rules for what is and is not a club.  I only offered my opinion on why people hate the BN calling itself a club....

As to the 'up your brewing game' comment... BN only had 2 medals... To me it's not really relevant though.  I mean I know there are plenty of good brewers that enter under the BN and that don't.  Quality of beer and number of medals are not what my comments were directed towards.

But you do want to change the rules so the BN has a harder time winning COTY.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: dkfick on June 25, 2015, 10:19:01 PM

Justin said he's not taking the stage or mic for COTY again. So, that problem is solved. We can stop hammering out that detail.

Justin doesn't control the club anymore than he controlled me entering a couple beers under the club name. I wasnt asked to join, I wasnt asked to participate. 

For the sake of COTY, and under current COTY rules, the BN is a club, regardless of anyone's feelings. Otherwise we wouldn't have won five times in a row.

If you knew anything about it you would know that COTY is an albatross around the BNs neck. Justin and company were hoping to lose so the drama could be pointed elsewhere.

Clubs, real clubs, that want to be awesome clubs and expand their membership and win this award, should stop pouting and do the work to clean up their act and attract people away from things like the BN. No one was forced to choose BN as their club for COTY.

The current importance of COTY rests solely on the people who are making it a big deal. If you want other awards to matter more, spend more time talking about those awards, and when they announce COTY just sit there. Cricket cricket... and dont mention it again. Don't whine that someone else should make it less important for you.

What is this? As you read up on the latest biggest event in homebrewing, 99% of it is about how everyone got screwed out of an award, and how the booing was upseting, and the rooms sucked, and they didn't teach me enough,  and there was a moron in line for an event before AHA, etc etc. A small percentage was about how fun it was and the people are great. Come on people! This is supposed to be fun, supposed to be a hobby, supposed to be a bit of an escape from the daily grind.

Its a good thing my Dad isnt in charge. He'd just cancel the whole thing.

OK I lied... 1 more post... Only because I sent this as a PM earlier.. then it came up again..

I agree it's not against any rules.  Just the spirit of the thing.  Kind of like having a goalie in hockey that is 1500lbs and just blocks the whole net.  Yes there is no rule against the 'wall' goalie... but it would be against the spirit of the game.


Are you seriously talking "spirit of things" when you trying to get the BN disqualified as a club? The BN is a 1500# goalie that brews amazing beer.  To say we're not a club is just pure jealousy and it's the typical I didn't win so I'll whine about it and stomp my feet until I get my way.

You want to compete against the BN, I recommend you up your brewing game. Maybe listen to a few brew strong episodes.
Actually no.  I stated that I didn't see the need to change rules for what is and is not a club.  I only offered my opinion on why people hate the BN calling itself a club....

As to the 'up your brewing game' comment... BN only had 2 medals... To me it's not really relevant though.  I mean I know there are plenty of good brewers that enter under the BN and that don't.  Quality of beer and number of medals are not what my comments were directed towards.

But you do want to change the rules so the BN has a harder time winning COTY.
I would be in favour of changing the rules so it's actually a worthwhile award.  As to who wins it... I would prefer there was no BN 'club' to even be around to win it, but if there is obviously they would still be I the running for it.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: oldstoneface on June 25, 2015, 10:26:25 PM
You want to compete against the BN, I recommend you up your brewing game.
If you truly believe that this is the reason the BN won COTY, then clearly you have not been paying attention. The club that other clubs should use as inspiration to "step up their brewing game," is the Austin Zealots who took us all to school in the final round with their awesome medal winning beers.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 25, 2015, 10:35:39 PM
Screw it. I belong to two, and half belong to a third, awesome clubs. I live 1800 miles from my "home club" that I would enter under. I normally don't enter because I feel it is a waste of money and effort to pay entry and shipping. Next year I will enter my max under BN Army with my buddy Jim. I might have my wife brew some and enter her max as well.

The BN Army is a club if they want to be a club. They don't need a board, a charter, a constitution, articles of incorporation, dues, or a meeting to be a club. The only requirement to be a club should be a group of brewers that share a common bond and have a desire to be together as one.

I don't think a rule change is needed. If a club wants to win, that club needs to increase their numbers and brew better beer. First round ribbons should count as it took a good beer to get that ribbon. Add a "National Homebrew Competition" to the front of the title and call it a day.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 25, 2015, 10:36:28 PM

You want to compete against the BN, I recommend you up your brewing game.
If you truly believe that this is the reason the BN won COTY, then clearly you have not been paying attention. The club that other clubs should use as inspiration to "step up their brewing game," is the Austin Zealots who took us all to school in the final round with their awesome medal winning beers.
AZ beers are damn solid. I certainly lookup to some of those cats.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: tschmidlin on June 25, 2015, 10:41:43 PM
So think about it.  Do we want to recognize the club with the most points in the competition or not?  If not, what should we be recognizing?
Kinda wondering if you actually did read all 20 pages of this thread because I'm pretty sure that most folks chatting here clearly state they want this to be a competitive award and not solely be for the 2 clubs that  actually have enough entries to win this award. If it's going to remain a tonnage style award, then I would like to see Radegast and Gambrinus elevated with more pomp and circumstance as both those awards are equally achievable for all clubs and AHA members, unlike COTY.

Yes, I read it, although I admit to only skimming the novel you wrote on p. 9.

The question I am asking is not "Do we want Club of the Year to be more competitive?" Separate the name from what the award is actually for.  Do we want to recognize the club with the most points in the competition or not?  Yes or no?  I think it is an impressive achievement.  As impressive as most points in the 2nd round (not currently an award)?  No.  As impressive as most final round points per entry (currently the Gambrinus Club of the Year award)?  No.  But still really cool.

Perhaps the answer is to rename Homebrew Club of the Year to Juggernaut (thanks theDarkSide), and create one based on second round points only.

The BN Army is a club if they want to be a club. They don't need a board, a charter, a constitution, articles of incorporation, dues, or a meeting to be a club. The only requirement to be a club should be a group of brewers that share a common bond and have a desire to be together as one.
I would agree with this, especially since two out of three clubs I belonged to would not be considered clubs if this was required.  And neither one is the BN club.

As for Justin and his influence, he is not on the competition committee and to my recollection has never commented to me at all about anything related to the competition or tried to influence any decision in any way.  Except I think one year after the banquet he said he wished QUAFF would have won Club of the Year that year.

And as for melliott2811's comment that "the GC could change things", the GC does not change anything.  We are an advisory group, not a board of directors.  We make suggestions and provide feedback, the AHA makes the changes.  Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't.

Oxford commas forever, double space after periods always, and someone please send me a message with the horrific thing that was said, sorry I missed the members meeting in San Diego.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 25, 2015, 10:43:12 PM
Screw it. I belong to two, and half belong to a third, awesome clubs. I live 1800 miles from my "home club" that I would enter under. I normally don't enter because I feel it is a waste of money and effort to pay entry and shipping. Next year I will enter my max under BN Army with my buddy Jim. I might have my wife brew some and enter her max as well.

The BN Army is a club if they want to be a club. They don't need a board, a charter, a constitution, articles of incorporation, dues, or a meeting to be a club. The only requirement to be a club should be a group of brewers that share a common bond and have a desire to be together as one.

I don't think a rule change is needed. If a club wants to win, that club needs to increase their numbers and brew better beer. First round ribbons should count as it took a good beer to get that ribbon. Add a "National Homebrew Competition" to the front of the title and call it a day.
Welcome aboard soldier!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 26, 2015, 03:39:11 AM
What doesn't make it seem unimportant is the name, Club of the Year sounds like a big deal.  I would be perfectly happy renaming the Gambrinus award Club of the Year, and calling the club with the most points in the competition the Gambrinus award winner or some other name.

That would be my preferred solution. Gambrinus becomes Club of the Year (or not, whatever), and COTY is renamed to something like NHC Champion Club.
This was my thinking on the 8 hour drive today.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: erockrph on June 26, 2015, 03:38:19 PM
I don't really brew for competitions, so I've stayed out of this conversation so far. But I keep hearing this issue come up every year. I do have a few thoughts on the issue, many of which have already been stated or implied by others.

- Homebrew clubs come in all shapes and sizes. By this fact alone, there is no way to define a set of rules that won't favor certain clubs more than others. No matter what you do to the rules, someone is always going to see it as unfair.

- I am not a member of the BN club, but I think it is awesome that they are able to compete (and be successful) as a club despite not being a club in the traditional sense. As times change, more and more of us aren't able to join traditional clubs, either because of geography, careers or family. As many others have stated, I consider this forum to be my homebrew club. Even if I had a local club that met next door to me, I'd have a hard time making it to regular meetings.

- For reasons stated above, I intend to enter some competitions this year (including the NHC) under the newly formed AHA Forum Club. I think that having the ability to compete as part of a non-traditional club is important and I intend to support that.

- If you're so über-competitive that you feel the need to boo your fellow homebrewers when you lose, then you need to RDWHAHB. Oh, and you're a jerk, too.

- I was very disappointed by the lack of dick jokes in Justin's post. The internet led me to believe that the BN was just a bunch of misogynists making dick jokes. Shame on you internet; I trusted you.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 26, 2015, 03:56:08 PM
I don't really brew for competitions, so I've stayed out of this conversation so far. But I keep hearing this issue come up every year. I do have a few thoughts on the issue, many of which have already been stated or implied by others.

- Homebrew clubs come in all shapes and sizes. By this fact alone, there is no way to define a set of rules that won't favor certain clubs more than others. No matter what you do to the rules, someone is always going to see it as unfair.

- I am not a member of the BN club, but I think it is awesome that they are able to compete (and be successful) as a club despite not being a club in the traditional sense. As times change, more and more of us aren't able to join traditional clubs, either because of geography, careers or family. As many others have stated, I consider this forum to be my homebrew club. Even if I had a local club that met next door to me, I'd have a hard time making it to regular meetings.

- For reasons stated above, I intend to enter some competitions this year (including the NHC) under the newly formed AHA Forum Club. I think that having the ability to compete as part of a non-traditional club is important and I intend to support that.

- If you're so über-competitive that you feel the need to boo your fellow homebrewers when you lose, then you need to RDWHAHB. Oh, and you're a jerk, too.

- I was very disappointed by the lack of dick jokes in Justin's post. The internet led me to believe that the BN was just a bunch of misogynists making dick jokes. Shame on you internet; I trusted you.
Refreshing and thoughtful

BTW most of the juvenile dick joking is on Zainashef's shows.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: lunitick1976@hotmail.com on June 26, 2015, 05:31:04 PM
I'm sure this will be contentious, but I wanted to see how others felt about this before I send my thoughts to the AHA directly.

While I support the Brewing Network and enjoy their content, it's just silly that they are allowed to be considered an AHA club towards Homebrew Club of the Year... By default they reach far more people than any other club possibly could. Assuming no changes, they pretty much have 'homebrew club of the year' locked up for eternity unless another national club starts. To me and many others, a club means a local group of homebrewers that are specific to a region or geographical area. I imagine it is demoralizing to great clubs like QUAFF and other regional groups that have worked hard to build a local scene and community, and not have a chance towards club of the year.

Also, I would have liked to see the "Final Round Club of the Year" (Gambrinus Club Award?) get equal airtime to talk on the mic at the banquet as the BN did.
Maybe other clubs should learn to brew better beer. I am a member of a brew club in New Mexico, we don't worry about NHC or comps, we care about great brewing and fun. Another point that is brought up on the brewing network is there are a lot of clubs out there that are full of assholes, that turns people towards groups like TBN.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 26, 2015, 05:37:14 PM

I'm sure this will be contentious, but I wanted to see how others felt about this before I send my thoughts to the AHA directly.

While I support the Brewing Network and enjoy their content, it's just silly that they are allowed to be considered an AHA club towards Homebrew Club of the Year... By default they reach far more people than any other club possibly could. Assuming no changes, they pretty much have 'homebrew club of the year' locked up for eternity unless another national club starts. To me and many others, a club means a local group of homebrewers that are specific to a region or geographical area. I imagine it is demoralizing to great clubs like QUAFF and other regional groups that have worked hard to build a local scene and community, and not have a chance towards club of the year.

Also, I would have liked to see the "Final Round Club of the Year" (Gambrinus Club Award?) get equal airtime to talk on the mic at the banquet as the BN did.
Maybe other clubs should learn to brew better beer. I am a member of a brew club in New Mexico, we don't worry about NHC or comps, we care about great brewing and fun. Another point that is brought up on the brewing network is there are a lot of clubs out there that are full of assholes, that turns people towards groups like TBN.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Notice the reason the OP doesn't think the BN should be a club is because we win COTY, not because of any perceived characteristics of a club that we are lacking.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 26, 2015, 05:39:28 PM
I don't really brew for competitions, so I've stayed out of this conversation so far. But I keep hearing this issue come up every year. I do have a few thoughts on the issue, many of which have already been stated or implied by others.

- Homebrew clubs come in all shapes and sizes. By this fact alone, there is no way to define a set of rules that won't favor certain clubs more than others. No matter what you do to the rules, someone is always going to see it as unfair.

- I am not a member of the BN club, but I think it is awesome that they are able to compete (and be successful) as a club despite not being a club in the traditional sense. As times change, more and more of us aren't able to join traditional clubs, either because of geography, careers or family. As many others have stated, I consider this forum to be my homebrew club. Even if I had a local club that met next door to me, I'd have a hard time making it to regular meetings.

- For reasons stated above, I intend to enter some competitions this year (including the NHC) under the newly formed AHA Forum Club. I think that having the ability to compete as part of a non-traditional club is important and I intend to support that.

- If you're so über-competitive that you feel the need to boo your fellow homebrewers when you lose, then you need to RDWHAHB. Oh, and you're a jerk, too.

- I was very disappointed by the lack of dick jokes in Justin's post. The internet led me to believe that the BN was just a bunch of misogynists making dick jokes. Shame on you internet; I trusted you.
I agree with all of this but also see this conversation as an opportunity for the AHA to make COTY more meaningful.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 26, 2015, 05:43:10 PM
I agree with all of this but also see this conversation as an opportunity for the AHA to make COTY more meaningful.

Sounds like COTY is already meaningful based on the upset people posting.

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: udubdawg on June 26, 2015, 05:50:48 PM
all the "they should brew better beer" bravado makes me hope BN one day wins Club Of The Year...WITHOUT WINNING A SINGLE MEDAL.
 ::)
Bets on whether we will still see "let them catch up with us" at that point?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 26, 2015, 06:27:57 PM
I agree with all of this but also see this conversation as an opportunity for the AHA to make COTY more meaningful.

Sounds like COTY is already meaningful based on the upset people posting.
I'm sure it is to some. Where I'm coming from, as someone who didn't know how COTY was awarded before this thread, is surprise that an award for "Club of the Year" is based on basically adding up achievements by individuals who choose to identify as a club member.  I just think it would be great if COTY was an award that rewarded the winning club based on performance at the NHC competition as a club. I'm just saying this as an AHA member. As far as I know I have never actually met anyone in a homebrew club and may never enter a competition so I have no hard feelings or sour grapes, just perplexed that this award would be valued as is.
While some have singled out BN many of the posters on this thread, especially earlier before some first time posters arrived in the last couple days and stirred things up, have taken great pains that they only have a problem with the existence of the award and what its called, not any particular club.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 26, 2015, 06:46:41 PM
Where I'm coming from, as someone who didn't know how COTY was awarded before this thread, is surprise that an award for "Club of the Year" is based on basically adding up achievements by individuals who choose to identify as a club member.  I just think it would be great if COTY was an award that rewarded the winning club based on performance at the NHC competition as a club.

Can you elaborate on how those are different?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: toby on June 26, 2015, 07:01:48 PM
all the "they should brew better beer" bravado makes me hope BN one day wins Club Of The Year...WITHOUT WINNING A SINGLE MEDAL.
 ::)
Bets on whether we will still see "let them catch up with us" at that point?
Yes.  I would bet yes you would.

My perspective on the 'brew better beer' argument is that it rings hollow, and I'm not in the camp that thinks the rules need to be changed necessarily.  It's clearly a case of violating the spirit of the rules without violating the letter of the rules.

As a personal example, we have a newly established state circuit that was an attempt to generate more participation and positive interactions between the clubs in the state.  One club has a member who lives in the state next door but has been traveling a lot to our state for work.  He is a prolific entrant within his home state's circuit and only enters as a part of the local club within our state circuit's comps (for everything else he enters as part of his main club).  Brewing better beer will only get people so far against him because of the volume of his entries (he has been entering in nearly every subcategory).  The only rules for the circuit and the homebrewer of the year currently are that the winner has to belong to a club within the state.  However, the club circuit promotions all basically state "Are you the best brewer in <STATE>?"  It will be interesting to see the reaction to the circuit next year if/when the winner doesn't even live in the state.  It already seems that the competitions for the rest of the year are severely lacking in promotion within state among the clubs.  I think that's what the people that are concerned about how 'meaningful' the award is are trying to get across.  Obviously NHC is a little different, since I think individual entrants will always enter for their own personal reasons.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 26, 2015, 07:02:32 PM
Where I'm coming from, as someone who didn't know how COTY was awarded before this thread, is surprise that an award for "Club of the Year" is based on basically adding up achievements by individuals who choose to identify as a club member.  I just think it would be great if COTY was an award that rewarded the winning club based on performance at the NHC competition as a club.

Can you elaborate on how those are different?
Its my understanding, and I could be wrong, it happens all the time, that COTY gives points based on how individuals place who self identify as a member of club x. It is also my understanding that the club has no direct role in brewing the individual beers, vetting which beers get entered under the club name etc. So 100 people could enter 500 beers that they made with no input from the club. I think it would be cool if COTY was awarded based on some type of actual collaboration or cooperation within the club, so that the club who wins is actually being recognized by their functioning as a club, not just a collection of individuals who may or may not know each other or communicate with each other. One suggestion would be to limit each club to x number of beers entered AS A CLUB (anyone can still enter individually and identify their club so it can be included in the individual award). That way the club, as a club, would have to make decisions and work together to win Club of the Year. I'm sure those experienced with competition would have better ideas how to do this but that's what I mean.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 26, 2015, 07:07:02 PM
I am not going to admit to reading this thread in its entirety.  Given how the COTY is determined, it means what it means - size apparently matters or at least helps in this statistically, but it doesn't mean that TBN is any better as a club than any other club nor any worse.  Maybe classifying clubs by various parameters and categories and awarding within the classification might help matters, but I don't think it needs to be like high school athletics, does it?

I am happy that a member of my club won a gold medal in a difficult category and he is validated for what we in the club already knew well - that is, that he is a great homebrewer.  That I personally know him, have talked with him many times and he is an all around great guy, allows me to share in the club's pride for him.  What more is there?  I view brewing as the one area in my life where collaboration and collegiality is co-existent with competition.  Sharing is commonplace and legitimate happiness for successes of others is openly expressed.

Peace and love, all. 

Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 26, 2015, 07:15:00 PM
I am not going to admit to reading this thread in its entirety.  Given how the COTY is determined, it means what it means - size apparently matters or at least helps in this statistically, but it doesn't mean that TBN is any better as a club than any other club nor any worse.  Maybe classifying clubs by various parameters and categories and awarding within the classification might help matters, but I don't think it needs to be like high school athletics, does it?

I am happy that a member of my club won a gold medal in a difficult category and he is validated for what we in the club already knew well - that is, that he is a great homebrewer.  That I personally know him, have talked with him many times and he is an all around great guy, allows me to share in the club's pride for him.  What more is there?  I view brewing as the one area in my life where collaboration and collegiality is co-existent with competition.  Sharing is commonplace and legitimate happiness for successes of others is openly expressed.

Peace and love, all.
Am I reading something on the internet? ;)
Seriously, nice sentiments and for new posters I can say this tone is pretty typical for this forum.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 26, 2015, 10:39:38 PM
I think it would be cool if COTY was awarded based on some type of actual collaboration or cooperation within the club, so that the club who wins is actually being recognized by their functioning as a club, not just a collection of individuals who may or may not know each other or communicate with each other.

I told myself I was gonna let the thread (eventually) die by its own accord, but since there's no sign of that happening anytime soon (;D), I would offer two definitions :

1/   LETTER OF THE LAW : What BN is justifiably doing within the written rules. BN has made a huge contribution to the homebrewing community, so no dog in the fight on my part.

2/ SPIRIT OF THE LAW :  "I think it would be cool if COTY was awarded based on some type of actual collaboration or cooperation within the club, so that the club who wins is actually being recognized by their functioning as a club, not just a collection of individuals who may or may not know each other or communicate with each other. " In other words, what Pete said.

In short, I think Spirit Of The Law = Level Playing Field. So Dan's analogy of the 1500 lb goalie that completely blocks out the goal is pretty much perfect. Like we need another $0.02.  ;)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: bboy9000 on June 26, 2015, 10:43:24 PM
"Spirit of the Law," in my mind means we BNers are intentionally trying to take advantage of the rules.  That's what the 1500# goalie example would be.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 26, 2015, 10:45:22 PM
"Spirit of the Law," in my mind means we BNers are intentionally trying to take advantage of the rules.  That's what the 1500# goalie example would be.

Not my perception of it. Just that the nationwide saturation makes it unavoidable. Again, no axe to grind on my part.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 26, 2015, 11:05:07 PM

"Spirit of the Law," in my mind means we BNers are intentionally trying to take advantage of the rules.  That's what the 1500# goalie example would be.

Not my perception of it. Just that the nationwide saturation makes it unavoidable. Again, no axe to grind on my part.
I disagree. The number of entries (200-300 posts ago) wasn't much higher compared to quaff.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 26, 2015, 11:06:59 PM
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/8ea3c5f5bcb8aa1a154338a7cd49d6dc.jpg)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 26, 2015, 11:18:12 PM

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/8ea3c5f5bcb8aa1a154338a7cd49d6dc.jpg)
I hear he would have entered. If only he had the willpower to not drink all five gallons out of the siphon hose.
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 26, 2015, 11:24:56 PM
Funny, but in the analogy who is the six fingered man?
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 26, 2015, 11:26:03 PM
Funny, but in the analogy you have to admit,  Justin is definitely the Six Fingered Man!

I think we all know who this is
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/edb2cc31b63a9de73c6d699e223aefd3.jpg)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: klickitat jim on June 26, 2015, 11:30:18 PM
This is the moderator saying that this thread is only Mostly dead
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/1a8148c033fcc7377478e874ee10a0e3.jpg)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: pete b on June 26, 2015, 11:41:46 PM
This is the moderator saying that this thread is only Mostly dead
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/1a8148c033fcc7377478e874ee10a0e3.jpg)
have fun storming the NHC!
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: santoch on June 27, 2015, 01:57:14 AM
This is the moderator saying that this thread is only Mostly dead
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/1a8148c033fcc7377478e874ee10a0e3.jpg)

(https://lindsaytan.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/not-dead-yet-e1332959543675.jpg?w=300)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: Stevie on June 27, 2015, 02:01:48 AM
And to sum up the thread...

(http://imgace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/really-again.jpg)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: erockrph on June 27, 2015, 03:14:14 AM
And to sum up the thread...

(http://imgace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/really-again.jpg)
+1
(http://www.sweeneypr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/beating_a_dead_horse_by_potatoehuman-d3fead41-500x375.jpg)
Title: Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 27, 2015, 03:17:37 AM
Thanks Pete - my horse ain't dead yet!