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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 01:21:56 PM

Title: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 01:21:56 PM
The 3rd fermentation temperature xBmt is complete, this time I used a traditional lager strain fermented 16˚F apart and collected data while at the National Homebrewers Conference... thanks to many of you awesome people!

http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

We're also running another t-shirt campaign, green and black available. It ends July 6 and we won't be running another one with this design for awhile, check it out: http://teespring.com/brulosophy3

(http://imgur.com/NW1MQAj)

(http://imgur.com/8F9zpzN)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 22, 2015, 01:29:14 PM
Wow, pretty interesting. Nice work !
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on June 22, 2015, 01:30:49 PM
Very cool! This makes me less afraid to try a lager this summer...
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: jtoots on June 22, 2015, 02:01:06 PM
wild man, wild.  as a brewer who is only about a year in to focusing on fermentation temp control (and therefor brewing lagers), this is encouraging that there is a margin for error.  ah yes, the old RDWHAHB strikes again.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: toby on June 22, 2015, 02:04:21 PM
Nice.  One thing to remember when people mention the 'trained taster' thing is that BJCP judges are not necessarily trained tasters per se.  Many of us literally conduct our own training, and in most cases, it's more geared towards detecting off-flavors and how to fix them.  I need to take better notes on these kind of things.  I don't remember which beer I picked in each (I only remember I picked the red in one and the blue in another lol).
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 02:17:24 PM
Nice.  One thing to remember when people mention the 'trained taster' thing is that BJCP judges are not necessarily trained tasters per se.  Many of us literally conduct our own training, and in most cases, it's more geared towards detecting off-flavors and how to fix them.  I need to take better notes on these kind of things.  I don't remember which beer I picked in each (I only remember I picked the red in one and the blue in another lol).

This is a great point, Toby, thanks. I used the term "trained taster" to encompass the myriad suggestions I get to use BJCP judges, probably not the best choice.

If you want to know which one you picked, I'm happy to look for you :)
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: mchrispen on June 22, 2015, 02:38:12 PM
That one really messed with my head dude... it was crazy!
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 22, 2015, 02:43:16 PM
I wonder if a greater disparity would have been noticed with less hop presence in the beer.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: toby on June 22, 2015, 02:56:04 PM
This is a great point, Toby, thanks. I used the term "trained taster" to encompass the myriad suggestions I get to use BJCP judges, probably not the best choice.
No, it's a valid choice of words.  It's honestly something that comes up a lot.  I get all sorts of pop quizzes where people ask me to taste something and expect me to be able to tell them all 7 of the hops they used and when or which 4 malts, etc. etc.  That's not what being a certified judge is about.  lol  Yeah, I might be able to make some pretty educated guesses, especially with styles or hops that I use a lot, but I can't detect experimental hop 1352 any better than the average guy off the street can.
Quote
If you want to know which one you picked, I'm happy to look for you :)
Sure, I'm a glutton for punishment.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 03:07:39 PM
Quote
If you want to know which one you picked, I'm happy to look for you :)
Sure, I'm a glutton for punishment.

You picked RED. The worst (best?)part is that I had all incorrect guessers compare the 2 similar beers for the next part...
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: mchrispen on June 22, 2015, 03:09:22 PM
Quote
The worst (best?)part is that I had all incorrect guessers compare the 2 similar beers for the next part...

This from a psychologist. And how did that make you feel? :) Not sure I want to know now.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 22, 2015, 03:16:59 PM
There are 2 more I can identify in the forum meet up.
Jeff Gladish has his back to the camera in the black shirt with yellow printing.
Rob Westendorf is in the blue shirt.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: denny on June 22, 2015, 03:30:30 PM
Good job, buddy!  I'm pretty sure I go it wrong, but tell me...
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: AmandaK on June 22, 2015, 03:34:29 PM
I also think I got it wrong but remind me what I picked, if you could.

And hey! No women's shirts? Sad panda.  :(
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 03:48:04 PM
I also think I got it wrong but remind me what I picked, if you could.

And hey! No women's shirts? Sad panda.  :(

Amanda, you actually got it right :)

We did the women's shirts last time and, quite frankly, the women who ordered them thought they sucked. My wife is about your size and said she much prefers the medium unisex shirts, I think they look better too. It's annoying, as well, because adding the women's option decreases the size of the image on the shirt (hence the small image on the last run).
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: AmandaK on June 22, 2015, 03:52:37 PM
I also think I got it wrong but remind me what I picked, if you could.

And hey! No women's shirts? Sad panda.  :(

Amanda, you actually got it right :)

We did the women's shirts last time and, quite frankly, the women who ordered them thought they sucked. My wife is about your size and said she much prefers the medium unisex shirts, I think they look better too. It's annoying, as well, because adding the women's option decreases the size of the image on the shirt (hence the small image on the last run).

Hey, all that sensory training did pay off!  :) But, even if I had gotten it wrong I'd still be sticking with your lager method anyway. It's producing amazing lagers. I'll have to get a few in some competitions and see how they do.

I totally understand on the women's shirts - I was really just giving you crap.  :P I just got finished with volunteering all weekend at a festival and the little gimme was - you guessed it - another men's shirt. Hooray!  ::)
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: toby on June 22, 2015, 04:00:28 PM
You picked RED. The worst (best?)part is that I had all incorrect guessers compare the 2 similar beers for the next part...
lol  sneaky.  So did I remember correctly about the one I selected for the other exbeeriment?
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 04:05:48 PM
Good job, buddy!  I'm pretty sure I go it wrong, but tell me...

Your intuition is correct, Denny, you selected RED.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 04:08:31 PM
You picked RED. The worst (best?)part is that I had all incorrect guessers compare the 2 similar beers for the next part...
lol  sneaky.  So did I remember correctly about the one I selected for the other exbeeriment?

I think so. You picked GREEN in that one... I'm not yet ready to say which was correct though. Next Monday, I'm still working on that article.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: toby on June 22, 2015, 04:30:20 PM
I think so. You picked GREEN in that one... I'm not yet ready to say which was correct though. Next Monday, I'm still working on that article.
Nope, apparently I remembered wrong.  I thought I picked blue in one.  I'm probably more curious about the results of that one since it was dealing with FWH.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: denny on June 22, 2015, 04:47:51 PM
Good job, buddy!  I'm pretty sure I go it wrong, but tell me...

Your intuition is correct, Denny, you selected RED.

I suck....
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: klickitat jim on June 22, 2015, 05:11:54 PM
Nice.  One thing to remember when people mention the 'trained taster' thing is that BJCP judges are not necessarily trained tasters per se.  Many of us literally conduct our own training, and in most cases, it's more geared towards detecting off-flavors and how to fix them.  I need to take better notes on these kind of things.  I don't remember which beer I picked in each (I only remember I picked the red in one and the blue in another lol).
BJCP means something but not beer analysis machine. I think the closer format is to a style guidelines contest the better they do. In fact they have a tendency to try to turn everything into a guideline comparison. They are great at off flavor detection. They aren't good at guess the ingredients, guess the process, and even pretty spotty at guess the substyle
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 05:18:44 PM
I suck....
That means I suck more... I got it wrong 4 times out of 5, and I knew what the hell was different!
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 22, 2015, 05:20:48 PM
Nice.  One thing to remember when people mention the 'trained taster' thing is that BJCP judges are not necessarily trained tasters per se.  Many of us literally conduct our own training, and in most cases, it's more geared towards detecting off-flavors and how to fix them.  I need to take better notes on these kind of things.  I don't remember which beer I picked in each (I only remember I picked the red in one and the blue in another lol).
BJCP means something but not beer analysis machine. I think the closer format is to a style guidelines contest the better they do. In fact they have a tendency to try to turn everything into a guideline comparison. They are great at off flavor detection. They aren't good at guess the ingredients, guess the process, and even pretty spotty at guess the substyle
You learn not to comment, as you will often be wrong.

I have been told to decoct a German beer for better results, it was double decocted.
Use Munich malt next time, it had a big % Munich.
Your Helped should be all Pils, it was.
And so on.

How well would you do?
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: beersk on June 22, 2015, 05:29:13 PM
Wonder what the master, Gordon Strong, would say about these two beers.

Nice experiment, Marshall. I've fermented Bohemain lager strains warmer (Wy2124, Saflager 34/70, WLP830) and it produces a nice clean beer. Curious that the 800 fermented so clean.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: rabeb25 on June 22, 2015, 05:38:12 PM
Nice.  One thing to remember when people mention the 'trained taster' thing is that BJCP judges are not necessarily trained tasters per se.  Many of us literally conduct our own training, and in most cases, it's more geared towards detecting off-flavors and how to fix them.  I need to take better notes on these kind of things.  I don't remember which beer I picked in each (I only remember I picked the red in one and the blue in another lol).
BJCP means something but not beer analysis machine. I think the closer format is to a style guidelines contest the better they do. In fact they have a tendency to try to turn everything into a guideline comparison. They are great at off flavor detection. They aren't good at guess the ingredients, guess the process, and even pretty spotty at guess the substyle
You learn not to comment, as you will often be wrong.

I have been told to decoct a German beer for better results, it was double decocted.
Use Munich malt next time, it had a big % Munich.
Your Helped should be all Pils, it was.
And so on.

How well would you do?

To be honest, this is exactly why I don't compete anymore. Having 3 different comments to the same beer at the same table drives me NUTS. Comment 1 too bitter, try lowering 60 minute addition. Comment 2 needs more bittering hops. Comment 3 nice beer, very balanced. SIGH
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: klickitat jim on June 22, 2015, 05:39:52 PM
Nice.  One thing to remember when people mention the 'trained taster' thing is that BJCP judges are not necessarily trained tasters per se.  Many of us literally conduct our own training, and in most cases, it's more geared towards detecting off-flavors and how to fix them.  I need to take better notes on these kind of things.  I don't remember which beer I picked in each (I only remember I picked the red in one and the blue in another lol).
BJCP means something but not beer analysis machine. I think the closer format is to a style guidelines contest the better they do. In fact they have a tendency to try to turn everything into a guideline comparison. They are great at off flavor detection. They aren't good at guess the ingredients, guess the process, and even pretty spotty at guess the substyle
You learn not to comment, as you will often be wrong.

I have been told to decoct a German beer for better results, it was double decocted.
Use Munich malt next time, it had a big % Munich.
Your Helped should be all Pils, it was.
And so on.

How well would you do?
My MO is describe it, score it, compliment it, offer a generic suggestion.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: jeffy on June 22, 2015, 05:55:25 PM
I would bet that I guessed wrong, too, but I swear one tasted different to me.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: denny on June 22, 2015, 05:58:10 PM
I would bet that I guessed wrong, too, but I swear one tasted different to me.

Yeah, same here.  But like Drew and I showed in our seminar, it's easy to set yourself up with false expectations.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: ranchovillabrew on June 22, 2015, 06:01:33 PM
I'm pretty sure I guessed wrong  and wasn't  very confident in my choice of different beers anyway
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: a10t2 on June 22, 2015, 06:17:27 PM
I think the biggest takeaway from all the Exbeeriments so far, for me, is that if you have otherwise good process control (as Marshall clearly does), letting one variable slip probably won't compromise the beer. I can't count how many times I've lost glycol, or had insufficient glycol capacity, during a lager fermentation and had no qualms about serving the resulting beer.

Then again, I think I guessed wrong on this one, though if memory serves I got the other one right.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 06:24:09 PM
I would bet that I guessed wrong, too, but I swear one tasted different to me.
Happy to tell you, if you want to know :)
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 06:26:24 PM
I think the biggest takeaway from all the Exbeeriments so far, for me, is that if you have otherwise good process control (as Marshall clearly does), letting one variable slip probably won't compromise the beer. I can't count how many times I've lost glycol, or had insufficient glycol capacity, during a lager fermentation and had no qualms about serving the resulting beer.

Then again, I think I guessed wrong on this one, though if memory serves I got the other one right.
I couldn't agree more and have plans to start combining variables soon. When I started this thing, I was convinced single variables would produce significant differences. I was so wrong.

I think you're right about your performance...
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: a10t2 on June 22, 2015, 06:29:12 PM
I couldn't agree more and have plans to start combining variables soon. When I started this thing, I was convinced single variables would produce significant differences. I was so wrong.

Pressure's going to be the one! This time I'm sure!

I think you're right about your performance...

I'm willing to endure the public shame in exchange for knowing. ;)
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: jeffy on June 22, 2015, 06:38:26 PM
I would bet that I guessed wrong, too, but I swear one tasted different to me.
Happy to tell you, if you want to know :)
Please?
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 06:39:33 PM
I couldn't agree more and have plans to start combining variables soon. When I started this thing, I was convinced single variables would produce significant differences. I was so wrong.

Pressure's going to be the one! This time I'm sure!

I think you're right about your performance...

I'm willing to endure the public shame in exchange for knowing. ;)
We've done 1 pressure ferment xBmt, no difference, but we've got more planned.

For this one, you were wrong. For the one I'm working on now, you were right :)
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 06:41:28 PM
I would bet that I guessed wrong, too, but I swear one tasted different to me.
Happy to tell you, if you want to know :)
Please?
Last name start with a G or R? Still not totally keen on everyone's usernames yet.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: AmandaK on June 22, 2015, 06:46:43 PM
I would bet that I guessed wrong, too, but I swear one tasted different to me.
Happy to tell you, if you want to know :)
Please?
Last name start with a G or R? Still not totally keen on everyone's usernames yet.
Jeffy is G. :)
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: toby on June 22, 2015, 06:48:59 PM
Wonder what the master, Gordon Strong, would say about these two beers.
Hard to say.  He's just as human as the rest of us.  lol  I played a pop quiz on him at Club Night.  Brought him a bottle of homebrew to see if he could offer a suggestion on which style it came across as.  Unfortunately, his take was the same as mine.  "Were you going for some sort of Kolsch/Pils hybrid?"
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 06:57:09 PM
I would bet that I guessed wrong, too, but I swear one tasted different to me.
Happy to tell you, if you want to know :)
Please?
Last name start with a G or R? Still not totally keen on everyone's usernames yet.
Jeffy is G. :)
Thanks!

Jeffy, you got it right.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 22, 2015, 08:07:45 PM
How did Jeff R do? Not too confident I got it right.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: brulosopher on June 22, 2015, 08:17:14 PM
How did Jeff R do? Not too confident I got it right.
You incorrectly chose the red sample... 3 times, haha, had to correct for that when running the data ;)
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: Joe Sr. on June 22, 2015, 08:40:40 PM
I think the biggest takeaway from all the Exbeeriments so far, for me, is that if you have otherwise good process control (as Marshall clearly does), letting one variable slip probably won't compromise the beer.

I agree 100%. 
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 22, 2015, 09:05:23 PM
How did Jeff R do? Not too confident I got it right.
You incorrectly chose the red sample... 3 times, haha, had to correct for that when running the data ;)
Somehow kept going back to the start.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: jeffy on June 22, 2015, 09:45:23 PM
I would bet that I guessed wrong, too, but I swear one tasted different to me.
Happy to tell you, if you want to know :)
Please?
Last name start with a G or R? Still not totally keen on everyone's usernames yet.
Jeffy is G. :)
Thanks!

Jeffy, you got it right.
Woo Hoo! 
I would like to say that I opted out of judging at NHC this year because of sinus issues.  I picked correctly in this experiment with no sense of smell at all.  Of course it's probably luck, but I thought they tasted different.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: SiameseMoose on June 23, 2015, 12:11:35 AM
Very cool work! I'm glad I was able to be a data point.

I'm teaching class at the LHBS Thursday, and I always get asked by beginners about doing lagers. I'be been recommending using San Diego Super yeast, but I might mention this work (if it comes up, but it probably will).

If I'd known you were taking pictures I'd have turned around!
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: a10t2 on June 23, 2015, 04:49:23 AM
If I'd known you were taking pictures I'd have turned around!

Fortunately, he caught me with my eyes closed and swirling beer around in my mouth. That's about as good as I ever look.
Title: Re: Fermentation Temperature - Pt. 3: Lager Yeast | exBEERiment Results!
Post by: wobdee on June 23, 2015, 02:24:11 PM
Great experiment! I wonder if the lagering time plays a role in reducing any effects from warm lager fermentation? Maybe if the warm pitch was kept at ale temps throughout it would of been different results?

I know I've produced some decent lagers in the past fermenting San Fran and Bohemian Lager at ale temps but I always lagered for a month before tapping.