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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: 69franx on August 16, 2015, 12:18:53 AM

Title: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 16, 2015, 12:18:53 AM
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So I just got back from a week in Florida.  I had left my belle saison fermented saison on 6plus # of fresh and then frozen raspberries. It's been on fruit for a little over 2 weeks and this is what I see upon first peek back from trip. No experience with brett, pedio, lacto brewing prior to this, so what are your thoughts?  Does this look like a beginning pellicle or mold?
     What's my next step if "simply" a pellicle?  Leave it for a while (how longish?) Pull or leave the bagged fruit? Have not sampled, as I only have one thief and did not want to cross from non clean to clean before I got some feedback. The fruit was frozen and then added still whole and frozen (first fruited beer, now I see I should have crushed it, etc prior to using)
     The good news is the clean batch if saison with 3724&3711 looks great, and is down from 1.053 to 1.003 in less than 2 weeks, sample chilling for tasting later tonight.
     Tell me your thoughts and experiences. I was planning on getting into some sour or wild ferments eventually,  now I guess it's probably time for another thief, sample tube, tubing, and a lot of red tape to mark off the non clean equipment
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: JT on August 16, 2015, 12:43:57 PM
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/16/d7f9178148d7a8639e4f6cc5ecb86789.jpg)(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/16/ddceb11b3fb1bc27b2f9ec47b185b4c7.jpg)
For comparison purposes.  This saison has whole frozen blackberries with Brett added this week.  I bought the blackberries already frozen (Walmart), loaded 7 pounds of them into an empty carboy, dropped in a French oak spiral, flushed with co2, then racked the saison on top.  I didn't crush the fruit.  After a few days, when I could see it wasn't going to blow out, I added Brett and topped it up to the neck.  It is steadily burping along. 
No pellicle yet, so I don't have any comparison for you there, but how does it smell? 

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Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 16, 2015, 02:03:16 PM
Thanks JT, not sure on the smell, I have a bit of a cold
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: reverseapachemaster on August 16, 2015, 02:34:13 PM
Definitely a pellicle. It's going to need some time to sit. Whatever has come to the party may be more attenuative and needs some time to ferment out whatever it will ferment out.
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 16, 2015, 03:11:59 PM
Pellicle is good to hear. Should I leave the bagged fruit in there or disturb the pellicle by pulling the fruit. As I mentioned in OP, I have a slightly different batch and could top this off as JT topped his off. Right now it is about 5.5G in a 6.5G bucket with at least a gallon of headspace...
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 17, 2015, 08:13:26 PM
Bump, any other suggestions on handling this brew going forward? Specifically since the fruit is bagged, the top of bag comes out of Brew in the middle of pellicle, when I like the flavor, rack gently from nelow pellicle, will be bottle conditioned so I assume I will need some conditioning yeast at that point, etc
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: brewinhard on August 17, 2015, 08:18:03 PM
Letting a sour age in a bucket can be a surefire way for acetobacter to take hold due to all the oxygen that can permeate over time through the permeable plastic bucket.  If it were me, I would pull the fruit out and rack into a CO2 purged (if possible) 5 gallon carboy.  That should eliminate your 1 gallon headspace and put it in glass which is better for long term aging.  If you are not happy with the fruit addition and wanted to add more, in 4-6 mos you could add some puree to kick up the fruit character if need be. 
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: narvin on August 17, 2015, 08:48:28 PM
Letting a sour age in a bucket can be a surefire way for acetobacter to take hold due to all the oxygen that can permeate over time through the permeable plastic bucket.

That's what the pellicle takes care of  ;)

Regarding the permeability through the plastic itself, I've aged a lambic on cherries for 9 months in a bucket and had no noticeable acetic character. Brett uses oxygen, and IMO glass has too little oxygen permeability for a long wild ferment.  Transfering it now would introduce more O2 than months of aging in the bucket, anyway.

Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 18, 2015, 02:22:25 AM
I guess I will set it aside as is and see what happens in a couple months
Edit: thanks Narvin and brewinhard for adding your thoughts
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: JT on August 18, 2015, 03:22:30 AM
I was thinking along the lines of brewinhard, the exposed surface area gave me more concern than the headspace.  But Narvin also makes a good point, the pellicle should protect it.
For whatever reason, the bag also makes me more uncomfortable than the bucket from an oxygen/acetobacter view - will the pellicle grow through it and form a solid barrier?  HOWEVER, I don't have any data or experience with a bagged fruit sour - so these are just thoughts/ramblings... I've only brewed two "wilds" and one of those is still in the fermenter. 

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Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 18, 2015, 03:29:54 AM
Kind of what I was thinking JT. And months from now, how do I rack but not crumble the pellicle and syphon it into my bottling bucket..?
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: klickitat jim on August 18, 2015, 05:21:14 AM
At racking time, just use your autosyphon like normal. Ignore the pelicle
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 18, 2015, 10:40:24 AM
Thanks Jim
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: brewinhard on August 18, 2015, 04:21:36 PM
Letting a sour age in a bucket can be a surefire way for acetobacter to take hold due to all the oxygen that can permeate over time through the permeable plastic bucket.

That's what the pellicle takes care of  ;)

Regarding the permeability through the plastic itself, I've aged a lambic on cherries for 9 months in a bucket and had no noticeable acetic character. Brett uses oxygen, and IMO glass has too little oxygen permeability for a long wild ferment.  Transfering it now would introduce more O2 than months of aging in the bucket, anyway.

As far as I understand it, pellicles typically form in the presence of oxygen.  So in this case there is already oxygen present in the headspace and only more will diffuse in over time.  I do agree that the pellicle is supposed to help "protect" the beer from more "aerobic" microorganisms that are oxidative and can "damage" your precious brew.  I just am not sure how protective they typically are for actual oxidation prevention of the beer itself.  Brett is a great O2 scavenger but beers with brett WILL still oxidize over time whether in a bottle or a fermenter. 

I would at least remove the bag if possible.  That to me seems like a big source of possible infection right there if not treated properly prior to using. 
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 18, 2015, 04:33:57 PM
The bag was soaked in star san solution prior to using. I think that whatever is in there came from the 2 pounds of red raspberries. I got them from the bargain bin at the farmer's market to round out the amount of fruit when I could not get blackberries or enough black raspberries. They had to be picked through and then I froze the good looking fruit and discarded the dregs( I only had them in the freezer overnight before racking onto them, the black ones were purchased and kept frozen until use.) The bag is now one of my biggest concerns, so I think I will remove and rack to 5g glass, topping off from other batch if needed. My pics show that the pellicle seems to be forming at edges of the bag but not necessarily the whole surface of the bucket.
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: brewinhard on August 18, 2015, 06:11:28 PM
Regardless of your choice of path, you are in for one "wild" ride!   ;D
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 18, 2015, 08:01:07 PM
Thanks, I needed a smile on this one
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 19, 2015, 08:56:16 PM
Just racked it to glass and topped off with my other saison. All fresh gear for the top off. The raspberries have given this a wonderful color and it smelled awesome with just a bit of tart/tang to the nose. Gonna cover it up and set aside for awhile to see what happens. Thanks for the suggestions, fingers crossed for now
Edit to add the pic dummy:

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Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 19, 2015, 09:38:53 PM
I'll bet it ends up pretty tasty, Frank ! Nice pink foam.
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 19, 2015, 09:45:16 PM
Got a sample chilling now bit had to take a small sip: reminds me heavily of Lindemann Framboise only not nearly as sweet. Guess the red and black raspberries will make that happen every time!
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 19, 2015, 09:45:46 PM
And thanks Jon, will know in...
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 19, 2015, 09:47:46 PM
reminds me heavily of Lindemann Framboise only not nearly as sweet.

Lindemann backsweetens the hell out of those fruit lambics, so that's probably a good thing.  ;)
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: JT on August 20, 2015, 04:41:44 AM
Awesome!  Good luck with it and keep us updated.  I'm going to try and sit on mine until February or so - the idea of leaving fruit in the carboy that long goes against every natural instinct I have so it is difficult...

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Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: 69franx on August 20, 2015, 05:26:16 AM
Well I want from a bucket to a carboy, my fruit went out to the street with the rest of the trash this evening. My sample was very fruity
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: klickitat jim on August 20, 2015, 12:45:26 PM
Awesome!  Good luck with it and keep us updated.  I'm going to try and sit on mine until February or so - the idea of leaving fruit in the carboy that long goes against every natural instinct I have so it is difficult...

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If its whole fruit you might get a hint of tanins from skins n seeds, but nothing to panic about. This year I'm using Oregon Fruit purees which have skin n seed removed. Looking forward to seeing the difference. Road trip today to get the fruit actually. I'll add the fruit in 2 or 3 weeks and it will stay in till bottling day next February or March.
Title: Re: Help me moving forward
Post by: brewinhard on August 20, 2015, 09:07:18 PM
Awesome!  Good luck with it and keep us updated.  I'm going to try and sit on mine until February or so - the idea of leaving fruit in the carboy that long goes against every natural instinct I have so it is difficult...

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No worries.  I have left fruit in the carboy (under beer of course) for over 6 mos with only positive effects.  That beer was actually a 4 year old lambic blend (other 5 gallons were blended into a killer gueuze) that sat on fresh harvest peaches, skin and all.