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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: Village Taphouse on September 30, 2015, 08:18:17 am

Title: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on September 30, 2015, 08:18:17 am
All:  When I went to Germany in 2013 I had some great Munich dunkel.  I thought that Augustiner made the best one but the Hacker Pschorr and even the Hofbrau dark were delicious.  I had some Czech dunkels on that trip as well but I would like to make a Munich Dunkel with some 2308 coming up here in the next week or so.  I have read numerous articles and threads on this topic but I'm posting this here in case there is any late-arriving information I should be aware of.  I have been brewing since 1999 and make a lot of lagers but this is my first dunkel.

Munich Dunkel

6 lbs Best Malz Munich (10L) [62%]
3.50 lbs Avangard German Pilsner [36%]
3 ounces German Carafa Special III [2%]
1.5 ounces Hallertau 3.2% for 60
1 ounce Hallertau 3.2% for 20
2308 Munich Lager Yeast

OG: 1.054, FG: 1.014, IBU: 25, SRM: 17, ABV: 5.2%


I would single-infuse the mash at 150° and I would want the beer to finish dry so the lower mash temp, a bit of sulfate and the pilsner malt may all help with that. I have heard of some people saying that 100% dark munich (the 9-12L stuff) can be overwhelming so they might use mostly light munich (the 6-8L stuff) instead.  This is the reason for the percentage of pilsner... to keep it from being overly malty or finishing too heavy.  I would be using my source water with the chloride and sulfate numbers being fairly close but still favoring chloride by a few ticks.  Feel free to poke holes in it or give me some direction. Prost!
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: BrodyR on September 30, 2015, 08:24:56 am
All:  When I went to Germany in 2013 I had some great Munich dunkel.  I thought that Augustiner made the best one but the Hacker Pschorr and even the Hofbrau dark were delicious.  I had some Czech dunkels on that trip as well but I would like to make a Munich Dunkel with some 2308 coming up here in the next week or so.  I have read numerous articles and threads on this topic but I'm posting this here in case there is any late-arriving information I should be aware of.  I have been brewing since 1999 and make a lot of lagers but this is my first dunkel.

Munich Dunkel

6 lbs Best Malz Munich (10L) [62%]
3.50 lbs Avangard German Pilsner [36%]
3 ounces German Carafa Special III [2%]
1.5 ounces Hallertau 3.2% for 60
1 ounce Hallertau 3.2% for 20
2308 Munich Lager Yeast

OG: 1.054, FG: 1.014, IBU: 25, SRM: 17, ABV: 5.2%


I would single-infuse the mash at 150° and I would want the beer to finish dry so the lower mash temp, a bit of sulfate and the pilsner malt may all help with that. I have heard of some people saying that 100% dark munich (the 9-12L stuff) can be overwhelming so they might use mostly light munich (the 6-8L stuff) instead.  This is the reason for the percentage of pilsner... to keep it from being overly malty or finishing too heavy.  I would be using my source water with the chloride and sulfate numbers being fairly close but still favoring chloride by a few ticks.  Feel free to poke holes in it or give me some direction. Prost!

I've had a dunkel on my mind as well (only have a 2 lagers under my belt - an Oktoberfest I recently kicked & a Czech Pils lagering atm) lately. Interested to see how this thread turns out. I have 0 experience brewing dunkel but what you posted lines up with what I've read so far.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: klickitat jim on September 30, 2015, 08:26:02 am
What's your goal with the beer? BJCP competition, or
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on September 30, 2015, 08:34:37 am
Try your recipe and see what you think. Personal taste preference should dictate -less concern if not brewing for competition IMO. FWIW- dark munich can be really nice without being cloying or heavy.

i have been brewing my dunkel this way and have really liked it. mash at 149-150F for 90 minutes. 22ibu, 5.6% ABV.FG 1.010-1.011

Ingredients                                                     Amt Name          %/IBU
9 lbs Munich Dark (Avangard) (15.0 SRM)          80.9 %
2 lbs Munich Malt light (Avangard) (7.0 SRM)      18.0 %
2.0 oz Carafa II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM)       1.1 %
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [2.70 %] -          Boil 45.0 min  3.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Magnum [12.40 %] -                            Boil 45.0 min  18.1 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
0.50 tsp wyeast yeast nutrient (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 7 -
1.0 pkg German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) [35.49 ml] 
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Iliff Ave on September 30, 2015, 08:38:25 am
I too have been wanting to tackle this style for a while. My plan is to use some pilsner with the munich as well but more like 1:4. I have used 3 oz of carafa special III in a an altbier and got too much roast. My goal for a dunkel would be to make it a late mash addition in attempt to get more color than roast. The 'dark munich' that I use is 9L...
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on September 30, 2015, 08:47:28 am
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on September 30, 2015, 08:49:10 am
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

if you're not already, throw the carafa at end of mash. I switched to carafa II and get no roast.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on September 30, 2015, 08:51:55 am
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

if you're not already, throw the carafa at end of mash. I switched to carafa II and get no roast.
I have heard people suggest this many times.  So mill it like usual but keep it separate and add it to the mash when there is what... 5 minutes left?  You get color with less/no flavor?  Interesting.  I have never tried it.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on September 30, 2015, 08:54:50 am
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

if you're not already, throw the carafa at end of mash. I switched to carafa II and get no roast.
I have heard people suggest this many times.  So mill it like usual but keep it separate and add it to the mash when there is what... 5 minutes left?  You get color with less/no flavor?  Interesting.  I have never tried it.

yes. i batch sparge, so last 5-10 minutes of my 90 minute mash i throw in the milled carafa II, proceed as normal from there and batch sparge. my dunkel is about 16SRM.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on September 30, 2015, 08:58:37 am
Yes, I batch sparge as well.  I could easily try this and see how it does.  I would say again that the character I get from the carafa special III is enjoyable to me but I am in unfamiliar territory at 3-ounces in 5-gallons so it may be a good idea to approach it this way.  Thanks again guys. 

Ps.  I have been brewing for 16+ years now but I am new to this forum.  I'm getting a very good vibe from the members here, many of whom I have bumped into elsewhere.  Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on September 30, 2015, 09:02:02 am
Yes, I batch sparge as well.  I could easily try this and see how it does.  I would say again that the character I get from the carafa special III is enjoyable to me but I am in unfamiliar territory at 3-ounces in 5-gallons so it may be a good idea to approach it this way.  Thanks again guys. 

Ps.  I have been brewing for 16+ years now but I am new to this forum.  I'm getting a very good vibe from the members here, many of whom I have bumped into elsewhere.  Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

welcome! ive overdone the carafa II/III before and do not want any roast in my dunkel-not to say others may not like it...just not for me in this beer. i've stuck to about 1% carafa II in my dunkel  and that works for me and my tastes.

good luck and let us know how it turns out for you.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: blatz on September 30, 2015, 09:05:15 am
i've switched from Carafa to Midnight Wheat when using for color additions, FWIW.

works better in the is application for me.

one tip - mill your dark malt first, put it aside, then run your other grains through - helps clean off the dark malt off the rollers a bit better and you won't have any residue.  i personally add just before sparging, but i fly sparge, so longer contact time than BS.

also, i personally was a bit overwhelmed with the all dark munich (weyermann) dunkel I did a few years back - one judge questioned if it was a bit underattenuated since the malt character was so rich - 76-77% attenuation and it finished at 1.013 IIRC.  my thought is i either need to mash even longer at the low end next time, or mix in some pils and/or munich I.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: klickitat jim on September 30, 2015, 09:10:15 am
This fall will be my second season for working on my Dunkel. The last one went to a couple BJCP Master judges and I need to fix a couple things. Needs more attenuation, drop the SO4-CaCl balance, add a little more German hop to balance.

Here's my up coming fixed recipe
1.055 OG
50/50 Best Malz Light and Dark Munich
3 oz Midnight Wheat for color adjustment
Mash long at 150F, 50ppm Calcium from CaCl, 5.4 mash pH
For a 6 gallon brew
1/2 oz Magnum @ 60
1 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh @ 5
1/2 tab of whirlflock and a little nutrient
Pitching two 1L shaken not stirred starters of Wyeast Munich at 48 with temp set at 50. After a week 1º per day rise to 60.
I'm shooting for 4.4 ph final
Fined at 30F with gelatin
Bottle conditioned at room temp for 30 days then cold stored for another 30.

Im shooting for a rich munich malt, but well attenuated, balanced slightly to the malt side with hops still easily noticed.

We'll see I gues
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on September 30, 2015, 09:31:08 am
Jim:  When you say 'drop the SO4-CaCl' balance, are you saying to lower the sulfate?  This is one area I have looked carefully at in terms of this recipe.  All of my water numbers are modest (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27) and my goal was to use enough gypsum in the mash to bring out some dryness in the finish.  I realize this could be accomplished with a lower mash temp (possibly) and I also realize that more gypsum in the mash will not counter a high FG or a cloying maltiness brought on by too much dark munich.  My water profile for this batch is set to 'balanced' with something like... (I just checked the water page on my recipe)... 48ppm cl and 49ppm SO4.  These are low numbers that slightly favor SO4.  Thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on September 30, 2015, 10:38:20 am
Jim:  When you say 'drop the SO4-CaCl' balance, are you saying to lower the sulfate?  This is one area I have looked carefully at in terms of this recipe.  All of my water numbers are modest (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27) and my goal was to use enough gypsum in the mash to bring out some dryness in the finish.  I realize this could be accomplished with a lower mash temp (possibly) and I also realize that more gypsum in the mash will not counter a high FG or a cloying maltiness brought on by too much dark munich.  My water profile for this batch is set to 'balanced' with something like... (I just checked the water page on my recipe)... 48ppm cl and 49ppm SO4.  These are low numbers that slightly favor SO4.  Thoughts on that?
cl/so4 ratio: 2.0 very dry. 1.3 balanced, .5 very full.  Jim may be targeting somewhere between amber full and amber balanced by lowering sulfate. I went with this after a few batches. I dropped gypsum levels and increased Epsom salts to get my sulfate. I also make sure to get 15-20ppm sodium.

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/30/9580298467a2b0223a199a310355e858.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/30/b9f659ddbb7c9456227b6c26565d4832.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: klickitat jim on September 30, 2015, 11:39:43 am
Jim:  When you say 'drop the SO4-CaCl' balance, are you saying to lower the sulfate?  This is one area I have looked carefully at in terms of this recipe.  All of my water numbers are modest (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27) and my goal was to use enough gypsum in the mash to bring out some dryness in the finish.  I realize this could be accomplished with a lower mash temp (possibly) and I also realize that more gypsum in the mash will not counter a high FG or a cloying maltiness brought on by too much dark munich.  My water profile for this batch is set to 'balanced' with something like... (I just checked the water page on my recipe)... 48ppm cl and 49ppm SO4.  These are low numbers that slightly favor SO4.  Thoughts on that?
I've been told about the SO4 to CaCl ration in the past. I don't know, I usually go by what is being said until I run into issues. My last batch, brewed last winter, went to MChrispen who liked it. Also went to a good sized comp in Bend were it didn't do well. Then to Dr Homebrew where they gave it mid 30s scores. One takeaway somewhat common denominator was a light chemical thing that ended up being attributed to my use of SO4. In that one I think I had about 80ppm calcium from equal parts SO4 and CaCl in distilled water. So in my next batch I'm going with just CaCl to see what I get.

I'm fixing three things at once though (calcium sorce, attenuation, and hopping) so it will be difficult to really say which did what.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on September 30, 2015, 11:47:58 am
Jim:  When you say 'drop the SO4-CaCl' balance, are you saying to lower the sulfate?  This is one area I have looked carefully at in terms of this recipe.  All of my water numbers are modest (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27) and my goal was to use enough gypsum in the mash to bring out some dryness in the finish.  I realize this could be accomplished with a lower mash temp (possibly) and I also realize that more gypsum in the mash will not counter a high FG or a cloying maltiness brought on by too much dark munich.  My water profile for this batch is set to 'balanced' with something like... (I just checked the water page on my recipe)... 48ppm cl and 49ppm SO4.  These are low numbers that slightly favor SO4.  Thoughts on that?
I've been told about the SO4 to CaCl ration in the past. I don't know, I usually go by what is being said until I run into issues. My last batch, brewed last winter, went to MChrispen who liked it. Also went to a good sized comp in Bend were it didn't do well. Then to Dr Homebrew where they gave it mid 30s scores. One takeaway somewhat common denominator was a light chemical thing that ended up being attributed to my use of SO4. In that one I think I had about 80ppm calcium from equal parts SO4 and CaCl in distilled water. So in my next batch I'm going with just CaCl to see what I get.

I'm fixing three things at once though (calcium sorce, attenuation, and hopping) so it will be difficult to really say which did what.

just a thought Jim- lowering or eliminating the gypsum and using epsom to get moderate sulfate levels, and you can still get the balance you may be looking for. I use a little canning salt to get my chloride where i want it and add some sodium, and avoid loading up on calcium ( i like in 30's PPM for lagers).  cl/so4 ratio of .9-1.2- depending on what you want.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: klickitat jim on September 30, 2015, 12:31:37 pm
Thanks I'll definitely keep that in mind
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: erockrph on September 30, 2015, 06:55:55 pm
FWIW, I don't add sulfate to my maltier lagers and I've never missed it. I shoot for about 80ppm of chloride from CaCl or a mix of CaCl and NaCl and adjust pH with lactic and that's it. I try to K.I.S.S. with my water additions and don't add something unless I see a clear need.

As far as recipe goes, I equate Dunkel with the flavor of Dark Munich malt. I do about 85% Dark Munich and 15% Pils. The Pils is mainly to boost the enzymes so it doesn't end up overly chewy. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's needed, but it makes me feel better. I've enjoyed both WY2633 and 34/70 as the yeast for this. If you have a cake laying around from your Octoberfest, this is a great style to repitch into.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on September 30, 2015, 07:00:25 pm
FWIW, I don't add sulfate to my maltier lagers and I've never missed it. I shoot for about 80ppm of chloride from CaCl or a mix of CaCl and NaCl and adjust pH with lactic and that's it. I try to K.I.S.S. with my water additions and don't add something unless I see a clear need.

As far as recipe goes, I equate Dunkel with the flavor of Dark Munich malt. I do about 85% Dark Munich and 15% Pils. The Pils is mainly to boost the enzymes so it doesn't end up overly chewy. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's needed, but it makes me feel better. I've enjoyed both WY2633 and 34/70 as the yeast for this. If you have a cake laying around from your Octoberfest, this is a great style to repitch into.
Erock... are you building from distilled/RO (so NO sulfate at all) or are you using a source water that has some sulfate in it and you just choose to leave it there?  I have made the mistake of making darker, maltier beers with a lot of chloride and very little sulfate and I thought the beer lacked crispness.  I know that some styles don't seem like they should be crisp but I feel like there has to be some sulfate in the water.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: erockrph on September 30, 2015, 08:14:14 pm
FWIW, I don't add sulfate to my maltier lagers and I've never missed it. I shoot for about 80ppm of chloride from CaCl or a mix of CaCl and NaCl and adjust pH with lactic and that's it. I try to K.I.S.S. with my water additions and don't add something unless I see a clear need.

As far as recipe goes, I equate Dunkel with the flavor of Dark Munich malt. I do about 85% Dark Munich and 15% Pils. The Pils is mainly to boost the enzymes so it doesn't end up overly chewy. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's needed, but it makes me feel better. I've enjoyed both WY2633 and 34/70 as the yeast for this. If you have a cake laying around from your Octoberfest, this is a great style to repitch into.
Erock... are you building from distilled/RO (so NO sulfate at all) or are you using a source water that has some sulfate in it and you just choose to leave it there?  I have made the mistake of making darker, maltier beers with a lot of chloride and very little sulfate and I thought the beer lacked crispness.  I know that some styles don't seem like they should be crisp but I feel like there has to be some sulfate in the water.
I have a deep well with a fairly low mineral content. My well report came back "ND" for sulfate, in particular.

My thought is that if I feel like something is missing, I can always add it back in the next time I brew. But I really like to keep my water additions simple to start. I have noticed a lack of crispness when I've omitted sulfate from some styles, but Dunkel and Doppelbock seem to be just fine without it (at least to my palate).
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 01, 2015, 09:55:54 am
FWIW, I don't add sulfate to my maltier lagers and I've never missed it. I shoot for about 80ppm of chloride from CaCl or a mix of CaCl and NaCl and adjust pH with lactic and that's it. I try to K.I.S.S. with my water additions and don't add something unless I see a clear need.

As far as recipe goes, I equate Dunkel with the flavor of Dark Munich malt. I do about 85% Dark Munich and 15% Pils. The Pils is mainly to boost the enzymes so it doesn't end up overly chewy. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's needed, but it makes me feel better. I've enjoyed both WY2633 and 34/70 as the yeast for this. If you have a cake laying around from your Octoberfest, this is a great style to repitch into.
Erock... are you building from distilled/RO (so NO sulfate at all) or are you using a source water that has some sulfate in it and you just choose to leave it there?  I have made the mistake of making darker, maltier beers with a lot of chloride and very little sulfate and I thought the beer lacked crispness.  I know that some styles don't seem like they should be crisp but I feel like there has to be some sulfate in the water.
I have a deep well with a fairly low mineral content. My well report came back "ND" for sulfate, in particular.

My thought is that if I feel like something is missing, I can always add it back in the next time I brew. But I really like to keep my water additions simple to start. I have noticed a lack of crispness when I've omitted sulfate from some styles, but Dunkel and Doppelbock seem to be just fine without it (at least to my palate).
Interesting.  I agree with you... I like to keep water additions to a minimum.  I only use CaCl and CaSO4 and my additions are modest.  Just enough to boost my low calcium number (34) and in a ratio that is best for the style... festbier, helles, dunkel, etc... more chloride.  Pale Ale, Red Ale, Amber Ale, etc., more sulfate.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: denny on October 01, 2015, 09:58:56 am
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

if you're not already, throw the carafa at end of mash. I switched to carafa II and get no roast.
I have heard people suggest this many times.  So mill it like usual but keep it separate and add it to the mash when there is what... 5 minutes left?  You get color with less/no flavor?  Interesting.  I have never tried it.

Or just get yourself a bottle of Sinamar.  No flavor and easier to use than guessing at a grain amount.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on November 06, 2015, 06:12:40 am
So this beer was kegged, chilled and carbed this week.  I took a sneaky cobra tap sample (a 16oz sample, mind you) last night to see how it was.  I can't believe I haven't made this style before.  It's delicious and possibly one of the best beers I have made in awhile.  It even has good clarity although it's dark enough where it's hard to tell.  So let me ask you guys a question... and I'm not trying to break your brain:  What if you had a beer like this (dark, dunkel base with the same hops at 60 and 10) and then you added a good amount of late hops like Hallertau to boost the IBUs to 40 or something.  A hoppy dunkel.  Is this a style already?  It's not that this beer needs it and I'm not a hophead.  But my hop preference have certainly shifted over 16 years of brewing and I was just envisioning what this beer would be like with more hopitude.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: brewday on November 06, 2015, 06:36:37 am
What if you had a beer like this (dark, dunkel base with the same hops at 60 and 10) and then you added a good amount of late hops like Hallertau to boost the IBUs to 40 or something.  A hoppy dunkel.  Is this a style already?  It's not that this beer needs it and I'm not a hophead.  But my hop preference have certainly shifted over 16 years of brewing and I was just envisioning what this beer would be like with more hopitude.  Thoughts?

West Coast Altbier.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: narvin on November 06, 2015, 07:23:45 am
What if you had a beer like this (dark, dunkel base with the same hops at 60 and 10) and then you added a good amount of late hops like Hallertau to boost the IBUs to 40 or something.  A hoppy dunkel.  Is this a style already?  It's not that this beer needs it and I'm not a hophead.  But my hop preference have certainly shifted over 16 years of brewing and I was just envisioning what this beer would be like with more hopitude.  Thoughts?

West Coast Altbier.

It could be similar to a sticke alt.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on November 06, 2015, 09:08:11 am
Hmm, I've never heard of a West Coast Altbier.  I also realize that some consider alt and kolsch to be a sort of lager but a dunkel is certainly a lager made with lager yeast.  Would a sticke Alt have as much color as a dunkel?  This one was made with 2308 which is certainly adding some great, Munich-like character.  I also have the private collection 2352 Munich Lager 2 (Augustiner's yeast, apparently) in my yeast fridge and it will probably be up and running after the first of the year.  My plan is to make this same Dunkel with that yeast and then maybe make this "vision" I have where I use something at 60 (Magnum, etc) and then an ounce of Hallertau at 15, 10, 5, 2, etc. and hop it like a pale ale or something.  Hoppy Uncle Dunkel.  :D
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: erockrph on November 06, 2015, 11:04:07 am
I think late hops tend to fight the malt and never end up the way you were hoping. I've tried brewing hoppy Octoberfests in the past and I always thought that the late hops were lower than hoped because the maltiness overshadowed it. I also find that by the time lagering is finished the late hops are starting to fade as well.

Hoppy altbiers tend to lean towards a solid bittering addition, although they definitely have moe late hop character than a Dunkel. It won't hurt to try what your planning, but I'd keep a reasonable expectation for the kind of late hop character you'll end up with.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Village Taphouse on November 06, 2015, 11:09:01 am
I think late hops tend to fight the malt and never end up the way you were hoping. I've tried brewing hoppy Octoberfests in the past and I always thought that the late hops were lower than hoped because the maltiness overshadowed it. I also find that by the time lagering is finished the late hops are starting to fade as well.

Hoppy altbiers tend to lean towards a solid bittering addition, although they definitely have moe late hop character than a Dunkel. It won't hurt to try what your planning, but I'd keep a reasonable expectation for the kind of late hop character you'll end up with.
Good call on the idea of lagering possibly dimishing the late hop character.  I hadn't thought of that but I'll tell you what... this dunkel is delicious right now.  I'm sure that 8 weeks of cold storage will improve it even more but I had three pints of it last night and I was really pleased with it.  Your approach sounds reasonable... try making a hoppy dunkel with moderate expectations.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: atodd on December 30, 2015, 03:17:27 pm
Maybe I missed it in here but has anybody used 98% Avangard Dark Munich and 2% Carafa II without any issues?  I just bought some from a different homebrew supply store.  I am just wondering if some Pilsner malt in there is a good idea?
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 30, 2015, 03:24:28 pm
Maybe I missed it in here but has anybody used 98% Avangard Dark Munich and 2% Carafa II without any issues?  I just bought some from a different homebrew supply store.  I am just wondering if some Pilsner malt in there is a good idea?

i did 80% avangard munich dark, rest avangard light  munich and the carafa II. it will convert all on its own at 100%- just depends what you want in the beer. i'm considering a little pilsner next time in place of the munich light and see how i like that.   all munich dark is malt malt malt....not necessarily a bad thing. just depends on what you like.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: atodd on December 30, 2015, 04:29:36 pm
Maybe I missed it in here but has anybody used 98% Avangard Dark Munich and 2% Carafa II without any issues?  I just bought some from a different homebrew supply store.  I am just wondering if some Pilsner malt in there is a good idea?

i did 80% avangard munich dark, rest avangard light  munich and the carafa II. it will convert all on its own at 100%- just depends what you want in the beer. i'm considering a little pilsner next time in place of the munich light and see how i like that.   all munich dark is malt malt malt....not necessarily a bad thing. just depends on what you like.
That was my concern.  I'll grab some pilsner malt tomorrow.

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Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: brewinhard on December 31, 2015, 06:13:32 am
Just brewed this one up with WY 2308 about 5 days ago...

6# German Munich Light 8L
6# German Munich Dark 15L
5 oz Melanoiden Malt
5 oz Carafa Special II

No sparged (about 60% eff)

24 IBUs (Hallertau for bittering and flavor), 20 SRM, OG 1.053

Was shooting for a richly malty dunkel with a dry finish and balanced hops
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 31, 2015, 06:36:53 am
Just brewed this one up with WY 2308 about 5 days ago...

6# German Munich Light 8L
6# German Munich Dark 15L
5 oz Melanoiden Malt
5 oz Carafa Special II

No sparged (about 60% eff)

24 IBUs (Hallertau for bittering and flavor), 20 SRM, OG 1.053

Was shooting for a richly malty dunkel with a dry finish and balanced hops
Which German Maltster makes a 15L Dark Munich? Best and Wyermann are only in the 10L +/- range.

I have a bag of Best Dark Munich to use on a Dinkel and Doppelbock.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 31, 2015, 07:22:08 am

Just brewed this one up with WY 2308 about 5 days ago...

6# German Munich Light 8L
6# German Munich Dark 15L
5 oz Melanoiden Malt
5 oz Carafa Special II

No sparged (about 60% eff)

24 IBUs (Hallertau for bittering and flavor), 20 SRM, OG 1.053

Was shooting for a richly malty dunkel with a dry finish and balanced hops
Which German Maltster makes a 15L Dark Munich? Best and Wyermann are only in the 10L +/- range.

I have a bag of Best Dark Munich to use on a Dinkel and Doppelbock.

Avangard dark Munich


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Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: AmandaK on December 31, 2015, 08:33:02 am
Maybe I missed it in here but has anybody used 98% Avangard Dark Munich and 2% Carafa II without any issues?  I just bought some from a different homebrew supply store.  I am just wondering if some Pilsner malt in there is a good idea?
I use Best Dark Munich and Carafa II. No Pilsner and a huge pitch of WY2206 got me down to 1.012 the last couple of times.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: atodd on December 31, 2015, 09:41:36 am
Maybe I missed it in here but has anybody used 98% Avangard Dark Munich and 2% Carafa II without any issues?  I just bought some from a different homebrew supply store.  I am just wondering if some Pilsner malt in there is a good idea?
I use Best Dark Munich and Carafa II. No Pilsner and a huge pitch of WY2206 got me down to 1.012 the last couple of times.
Thanks, I think I'm just going to use the Munich malt and see where it gets me.  I am using a third generation of yeast that has been performing well.   

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Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 31, 2015, 09:42:06 am

Just brewed this one up with WY 2308 about 5 days ago...

6# German Munich Light 8L
6# German Munich Dark 15L
5 oz Melanoiden Malt
5 oz Carafa Special II

No sparged (about 60% eff)

24 IBUs (Hallertau for bittering and flavor), 20 SRM, OG 1.053

Was shooting for a richly malty dunkel with a dry finish and balanced hops
Which German Maltster makes a 15L Dark Munich? Best and Wyermann are only in the 10L +/- range.

I have a bag of Best Dark Munich to use on a Dinkel and Doppelbock.

Avangard dark Munich


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Thanks, good to know for the next purchase.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: brewinhard on December 31, 2015, 12:36:27 pm

Just brewed this one up with WY 2308 about 5 days ago...

6# German Munich Light 8L
6# German Munich Dark 15L
5 oz Melanoiden Malt
5 oz Carafa Special II

No sparged (about 60% eff)

24 IBUs (Hallertau for bittering and flavor), 20 SRM, OG 1.053

Was shooting for a richly malty dunkel with a dry finish and balanced hops
Which German Maltster makes a 15L Dark Munich? Best and Wyermann are only in the 10L +/- range.

I have a bag of Best Dark Munich to use on a Dinkel and Doppelbock.

Avangard dark Munich


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes sir.
Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 31, 2015, 01:54:35 pm
Love it. But I think at 15, I liked it as I used a dry water profile and it finished 1.011. I think I will cut it with some Pils next batch and see what I think


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Title: Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
Post by: brewinhard on January 01, 2016, 07:49:15 am
Love it. But I think at 15, I liked it as I used a dry water profile and it finished 1.011. I think I will cut it with some Pils next batch and see what I think


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I have noticed that too.  I do really like the 15L, but in too high amounts it can almost be overly malty and sweetly rich. Keeping the water profile dry, mashing a tad lower, and using proper %'s of this malt and can bring an awesome maltiness to this style.