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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: loopy on June 12, 2010, 06:13:54 AM

Title: can someone explain
Post by: loopy on June 12, 2010, 06:13:54 AM
... how we could put a man on the moon 40 years ago but cannot close a leaky pipe now.  isnt this basic plumbing?  put a cap on with the valve open, weld it, close the valve.  have we regressed that much in 40 years that it is now beyond the limits of our technology to fix a leaky pipe? 
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: uthristy on June 12, 2010, 11:33:42 AM
have we regressed that much in 40 years that it is now beyond the limits of our technology to fix a leaky pipe? 

Yes, plain & simple
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 12, 2010, 12:21:30 PM
There was the time from when JFK said we were going to do it, and when it was accomplished.   There were some big budgets for NASA back in those days.  There was a plan to do it.  Mercury, Gemini, Apollo. 
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: maxieboy on June 12, 2010, 12:56:42 PM
Greed has outweighed regard for the planet and respect for human life.. BP is a despicable company who gives ONLY lip service to safety. Rotten to the core... >:(
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: majorvices on June 12, 2010, 01:03:33 PM
The gulf is my family vacation spot every fall. One of the most beautiful coasts in the US. Tragic loss. I feel terrible that I have lost a favorite vacation spot. I can't imagine how terrible the people who are losing a way of life feel.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: dean on June 12, 2010, 01:32:34 PM
Loopy, they don't even need to weld it.  In the videos you can see the valve flange bolts... robot spins them off, robot(s) set a new BOP valve over the top (fully open) and put new bolts between the two flanges.  I hated nippling up, working Under the BOP; tightening the nuts/bolts... only thing holding that HUGE valve up was the kelly rigging and some big azz cables.    :o  :D  Especially hated it in winter. 
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: dimik on June 12, 2010, 03:12:06 PM
I think you're oversimplifying it a bit. It is more than just fixing a leaky pipe. Due to the fact that it is under water. The water causes tremendous pressure at that depth, and the oil squirting from under the sea floor is under even more pressure. So, IMO, a better analogy would be trying to fix a hole in a submerged submarine from the inside.
That, however, does not negate that fact that BP seriously screwed everyone with that pipe.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: beerocd on June 12, 2010, 03:25:52 PM
1)    ... how we could put a man on the moon 40 years ago but cannot close a leaky pipe now.  isnt this basic plumbing?  
2)   put a cap on with the valve open, weld it, close the valve.  

1) Never happened Hollywood stunt.  ;)

2) Send Capozzoli he can weld anything!  :D
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: nicneufeld on June 12, 2010, 05:20:36 PM
Great way to grasp just how bally deep this thing is:

http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/infographic-tallest-mountain-to-deepest-ocean-trench-0249/
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: beerocd on June 12, 2010, 06:11:10 PM
That's a way cool graphic! I still say send Cap!  :)
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: capozzoli on June 12, 2010, 10:27:00 PM
I could maybe do it,I went to The Divers of The Eastern Seaboard school for underwater welding a little while. Never completed though. Started figuring a paycheck isnt worth risking my life for, no matter how much it is.

I do have a saying though:  If I cant weld it nobody can. That may not be the case here, Im sure there are others more qualified for this weld job. Maybe it is to deep for divers.

Why dont they just send down a big hose from a giant vacuum pump? Could have a giant inverted funnel to catch everything. Pump it up and load it onto tankers.

Im sure the people at BP say that these kinds of leaks occur in nature sometime without mans help so this is no worse.  

1:02-1:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls3kwOi29lg
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: a10t2 on June 12, 2010, 11:03:02 PM
Why dont they just send down a big hose from a giant vacuum pump? Could have a giant inverted funnel to catch everything. Pump it up and load it onto tankers.

Isn't that what they're doing now?
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: rabid_dingo on June 13, 2010, 12:38:57 AM
Great way to grasp just how bally deep this thing is:

http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/infographic-tallest-mountain-to-deepest-ocean-trench-0249/

I am amazed at the depth of the Grand Canyon on this display. An amazing perspective.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: BrewingRover on June 13, 2010, 02:01:57 AM
Great way to grasp just how bally deep this thing is:

http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/infographic-tallest-mountain-to-deepest-ocean-trench-0249/
Very cool graphic, thanks nic.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: dean on June 13, 2010, 11:42:37 AM
Great way to grasp just how bally deep this thing is:

http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/infographic-tallest-mountain-to-deepest-ocean-trench-0249/

Don't forget the Colorado River runs through the Grand Canyon... imagine if sea water were to make its way in.  Where does the Colorado River empty?  It must be above sea level.... how then is the GC below sea level?  Now I'm confused!   :D
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: weazletoe on June 13, 2010, 01:42:45 PM
Go have a few pints. That will clear things right up.  ;D
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: SwashBuckling Drunk on June 13, 2010, 02:36:50 PM
They need a GIANT catwalk!
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: majorvices on June 13, 2010, 03:39:13 PM
Great way to grasp just how bally deep this thing is:

http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/infographic-tallest-mountain-to-deepest-ocean-trench-0249/

Don't forget the Colorado River runs through the Grand Canyon... imagine if sea water were to make its way in.  Where does the Colorado River empty?  It must be above sea level.... how then is the GC below sea level?  Now I'm confused!   :D

The GC rim is about 7000-8000 ft above sea level and is only about a mile or so deep so the river is still way above sea level.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: a10t2 on June 13, 2010, 03:47:09 PM
Where does the Colorado River empty?

Nowhere. Used to be into the Gulf of California, but all the water is used for agriculture now:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1c/ColoradoRiverAtSanLuis.jpg/250px-ColoradoRiverAtSanLuis.jpg)
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 13, 2010, 04:55:30 PM
Yes, the Colorado does not flow to the Gulf of Cortez anymore, has not for some time.  Agriculture and golf courses get most of it,as said.  The only reason water crosses the border to Mexico is due to a treaty, and at that it is only 1.5 million acre feet.

"Cadillac Desert" by Mark Reisner covers this and other aspects of the West's water.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: dean on June 13, 2010, 05:43:31 PM
Why isn't anybody screaming about the loss (extinction?) of animal life and habitat over that?   ;)

Since BP is spoiling the Gulf of Mexico, I think we should all demand they restore the Gulf of Cortez.   ;D  ;)
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: glitterbug on June 14, 2010, 03:32:01 PM
... how we could put a man on the moon 40 years ago but cannot close a leaky pipe now.

We spent years and millions of dollars to send a man to the moon. We did not wake up one day and tell nasa to send someone to the moon in a week.

isnt this basic plumbing? 

Obviously not. Otherwise joe the plumber would be down there fixing it

have we regressed that much in 40 years that it is now beyond the limits of our technology to fix a leaky pipe? 

No, in fact it is quite the opposite. Our advanced technology has given voice to millions of crackpots and armchair quarterbacks who equate leaky pipe = easy fix. The legitimate ideas are being vetted and discussed by real engineers :)

This was an interesting article. BBC readers sent their ideas for fixing the leak and they had an expert comment on them
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10268979.stm
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: tubercle on June 14, 2010, 03:57:20 PM
... how we could put a man on the moon 40 years ago but cannot close a leaky pipe now.

We spent years and millions of dollars to send a man to the moon. We did not wake up one day and tell nasa to send someone to the moon in a week.


 Explorer 1 was launched January 31, 1958.

 Neil Armstrong stepped out onto the movie studio in Arizon...er, the Moon on July 20, 1969.
 
 That's a fairly quick turnaround from when JFK beat his fist on the podium and said we will have a man on the Moon by the end of the decade. I bet a bunch of NASA engineer's a$$es snapped shut that day ;D

 As far as the oil, I can't believe a plan wasn't already in place. Always plan for the worst case scenario and all the other problems will already be taken care of.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: akr71 on June 14, 2010, 04:19:20 PM
As far as the oil, I can't believe a plan wasn't already in place. Always plan for the worst case scenario and all the other problems will already be taken care of.
That would be a sensible idea, but corporate greed often outweighs commen sense >:(
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: majorvices on June 14, 2010, 07:55:37 PM
Why isn't anybody screaming about the loss (extinction?) of animal life and habitat over that?   ;)

Uhhhhmmmm.... because we don't eat horned toads, sidewinders or dessert scorpions.  ;) Oysters and shrimp on the other hand... I know I am screaming mad because my most favorite vacation spot is gone. Once you see how beautiful the gulf is ... or used to be ... you'd understand.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: a10t2 on June 14, 2010, 08:16:11 PM
Uhhhhmmmm.... because we don't eat horned toads, sidewinders or dessert scorpions.

Damn straight! Scorpions aren't dessert, they're more of an appetizer. ;)

Retirees in Lake Havasu want golf courses and tourists in Vegas want air conditioning. Neither of them cares about tidal estuaries in Mexico.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: sienabrewer on June 14, 2010, 08:54:55 PM
As far as the oil, I can't believe a plan wasn't already in place. Always plan for the worst case scenario and all the other problems will already be taken care of.

What's even more unbelievable is that despite there not being a plan to deal with this our government, that's right our's, still gave them the go-ahead and the necessary permits. 
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: majorvices on June 14, 2010, 09:00:06 PM
Uhhhhmmmm.... because we don't eat horned toads, sidewinders or dessert scorpions.

Damn straight! Scorpions aren't dessert, they're more of an appetizer. ;)

Retirees in Lake Havasu want golf courses and tourists in Vegas want air conditioning. Neither of them cares about tidal estuaries in Mexico.

yuk, yuk.  ::) :P
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: glitterbug on June 14, 2010, 09:18:10 PM
As far as the oil, I can't believe a plan wasn't already in place. Always plan for the worst case scenario and all the other problems will already be taken care of.

What's even more unbelievable is that despite there not being a plan to deal with this our government, that's right our's, still gave them the go-ahead and the necessary permits. 

We can't have the government intruding on the rights of corporations to make money, that would be unamerican :)
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: weazletoe on June 15, 2010, 02:34:24 AM
Once you see how beautiful the gulf is ... or used to be ... you'd understand.

+1. Go to Sanibel Island once, and watch the dolphins play off shore. Nothing like it. Oh, and Major, you and the family are welcome to spend this summers vacation with me, in Idaho.  :D
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: majorvices on June 15, 2010, 11:15:31 AM
Once you see how beautiful the gulf is ... or used to be ... you'd understand.

+1. Go to Sanibel Island once, and watch the dolphins play off shore. Nothing like it. Oh, and Major, you and the family are welcome to spend this summers vacation with me, in Idaho.  :D

Thanks. Don't be surprised if I take you up on that.  8)
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: bluesman on June 15, 2010, 05:19:28 PM
As far as the oil, I can't believe a plan wasn't already in place. Always plan for the worst case scenario and all the other problems will already be taken care of.

What's even more unbelievable is that despite there not being a plan to deal with this our government, that's right our's, still gave them the go-ahead and the necessary permits. 

We can't have the government intruding on the rights of corporations to make money, that would be unamerican :)


That's fine and OK.   But things will change now that we have one of the worst disasters in the history of this country.

This is absolutely dispicable. The effects of this disaster will be unprecedented. What a crying shame this is...

...and who will be held accountable?

...or better yet who should be held accountable?

Some lawyers are going to make alot of money on this one.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: uthristy on June 15, 2010, 07:50:03 PM
That's fine and OK.   But things will change now that we have one of the worst disasters in the history of this country.

This is absolutely dispicable. The effects of this disaster will be unprecedented. What a crying shame this is...

I disagree after watching two members of our fine goverment saying we need to keep drilling and its only 1 disaster in the history of gulf drilling :o  < yesterdays “Hardball with Chris Matthews,”  >

Nothing will change as people need cheap gas and are willing to do whatever it takes to get it, sounds like a junkie looking for the next fix

Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: pyrite on June 15, 2010, 08:28:31 PM
Today Obama said "the gulf will be better than it was before the spill" meaning, after the clean-up efforts have taken place and this administration along with BP have used all the resources to clean the mess up the gulf will be restored.  

I don't know why he made such a comment.  I don't think it is possible to clean such a mess up.  The Exxon Valdez Alaskan Oil spill is still not completely cleaned up and Obama makes this comment.  Why?

I think i'm going to watch the laker game tonight instead of watching his address to the nation.  What a Tragedy :-[

I some how feel I'm indirectly contributing to this oil company's spill.  I feel guilty because I gas my car up and use oil everyday.  Furthermore, I feel like the money I used to pay for the gas and other BP products is a saying i support you BP and other mismanaged oil companies.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: theDarkSide on June 15, 2010, 08:35:05 PM
And now lightning hits a ship in the cleanup effort and starts a fire...almost sounds like someone doesn't want us to clean up the oil...
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: glitterbug on June 15, 2010, 09:07:23 PM
We can't have the government intruding on the rights of corporations to make money, that would be unamerican :)


That's fine and OK.   But things will change now that we have one of the worst disasters in the history of this country.

This is absolutely dispicable. The effects of this disaster will be unprecedented. What a crying shame this is...

...and who will be held accountable?

...or better yet who should be held accountable?

Some lawyers are going to make alot of money on this one.

My comment was more tongue in cheek. I think we should try and plug the hole with BP executives and people who put "drill baby drill" bumper stickers on their cars ;D

Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: glitterbug on June 15, 2010, 09:12:39 PM
To lighten the mood: BP's new logo

(http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/glitterbughb/bp.jpg)
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 15, 2010, 09:44:12 PM
I disagree after watching two members of our fine goverment saying we need to keep drilling and its only 1 disaster in the history of gulf drilling :o  < yesterdays “Hardball with Chris Matthews,”  >

Chris Matthews doesn't know much.

Google "Ixtoc 1".  It was down by the Yucatan, but still the Gulf of Mexico.   It did come to the US shore.   From a quick google search.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/06/12/1228624/ixtoc-offshore-well-gulfs-other.html
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: uthristy on June 16, 2010, 12:10:49 AM

Chris Matthews doesn't know much.


It wasn't that talking head Chris Matthews but BOTH politicians from BOTH parties who BOTH were saying we need to keep drilling, regardless of the damages from this disaster.

Thats why I say we're doomed, history is something to learn from and not forget:



~~~~~~~~~~~July 15, 1979.

Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation, and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and we can seize control again of our common destiny.

In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on our economy and our people. This is the direct cause of the long lines which have made millions of you spend aggravating hours waiting for gasoline. It's a cause of the increased inflation and unemployment that we now face. This intolerable dependence on foreign oil threatens our economic independence and the very security of our nation. The energy crisis is real. It is worldwide. It is a clear and present danger to our nation. These are facts and we simply must face them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The next president came in and promptly removed the solor planels from the roof saying “That’s enough of that!”.
Between 1981 and 1986, the Reagan administration cut funding for renewable energy research and public renewable energy tax credits by 90%.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: weazletoe on June 16, 2010, 01:30:13 AM

Thanks. Don't be surprised if I take you up on that.  8)

 Looking forward to it. And as always, pants optional.  ;D
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: dean on June 16, 2010, 01:39:10 AM
Why isn't anybody screaming about the loss (extinction?) of animal life and habitat over that?   ;)

Uhhhhmmmm.... because we don't eat horned toads, sidewinders or dessert scorpions.  ;) Oysters and shrimp on the other hand... I know I am screaming mad because my most favorite vacation spot is gone. Once you see how beautiful the gulf is ... or used to be ... you'd understand.

We don't eat west coaster's either.... perhaps their extinction via restoring the flow of the Colorado River will bring back the species we did eat out of the Gulf of Cortez.   ???   ;)  And create new jobs for the fisherman etc surrounding the Gulf of Mexico.   ;D
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: dimik on June 17, 2010, 12:14:55 AM
I can't believe no one called Chuck Norris yet!
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: weazletoe on June 17, 2010, 10:47:38 PM
  I think what they should do, is drop a wedding ring down there, and slip on the pipe. I guarantee you once it get a rin, it quits putting out!  ;D
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: akr71 on June 17, 2010, 11:44:00 PM
Now that's F'n funny Weaze!  ;D
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: richardt on June 18, 2010, 01:57:37 AM
Thanks Weaze!  This thread definitely needed some levity!
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: weazletoe on June 18, 2010, 05:52:43 AM
That's what I'm here for.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: beerstache on June 18, 2010, 09:59:44 PM
Just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth...Did you hear about the Texas congressman who apoligized to BP about the Obama White House getting BP to set up that 20 billion relief fund?  Just goes to show how bought off our politicians are on both sides of the aisle...With a mentality like this we are screwed!  If this tragedy doesnt get our addicted asses off oil, we never will and the terrorists win!
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: capozzoli on June 18, 2010, 11:34:35 PM
Anyone have any guesses what they may eventually do? They may never figure it out.

How long till it just runs out?

"drill baby drill"

Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: beerocd on June 20, 2010, 02:36:58 PM
Anyone have any guesses what they may eventually do?

Hire a PR guy to tell us they are doing us a favor. The fish was tainted with mercury and all kinds of bad stuff. So - they put an end to people eating unhealthy fish/crawdads/shrimp/etc.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: capozzoli on June 20, 2010, 02:56:28 PM
Im starting to get the feeling that they will never be able to stop it. This isnt like a broken tanker.

 Its already not even on the news anymore. Stories about Justin Bieber's new girlfriend seem to be of more importance to most Americans.

I cant believe people are not shaken with constant fear. Maybe I am being negative but I think this is going to turn out to be the worst disaster in the history of mankind. I hope this is just one of my nightmares and not the reality but I am starting to wonder.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: beerocd on June 20, 2010, 03:08:21 PM
I THINK the problem would be easy to solve; but irreversible. And BP doesn't want to lose what is obviously a plentiful well. So their solutions are geared around being able to tap back into the pipeline that is there. Otherwise, I bet you could pop a couple of explosive charges around it, jamming the pipe shut, burying it in debris and never being able to use it again.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: bluesman on June 20, 2010, 03:09:26 PM
Im starting to get the feeling that they will never be able to stop it. This isnt like a broken tanker.

 Its already not even on the news anymore. Stories about Justin Bieber's new girlfriend seem to be of more importance to most Americans.

I cant believe people are not shaken with constant fear. Maybe I am being negative but I think this is going to turn out to be the worst disaster in the history of mankind. I hope this is just one of my nightmares and not the reality but I am starting to wonder.

I hear you loud and clear. This is one of the worst environmental disasters the world has ever experienced.

It makes me sick inside when I see the photos of it's effects.

They better get it capped very soon.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: a10t2 on June 20, 2010, 03:40:07 PM
I cant believe people are not shaken with constant fear. Maybe I am being negative but I think this is going to turn out to be the worst disaster in the history of mankind. I hope this is just one of my nightmares and not the reality but I am starting to wonder.

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/worst_case_scenario.png) (http://xkcd.com/748/)

Just trying to inject some humor into what really isn't a funny situation at all.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: weazletoe on June 20, 2010, 06:44:36 PM
  Dude, if I didn't laugh at life, I'd cry. Funny stuff you got there.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: SwashBuckling Drunk on June 21, 2010, 02:31:26 PM
......... This is one of the worst environmental disasters the world has ever experienced.


Is it really?  I honestly don't know, but I'm guessing many worse things have happened.  This one really hits home because its in the Gulf of Mexico.  If it was in Russia, China, Middle East or some South American backwater then we'd barely know about it.

Sadly, this has to happen close to home for Americans to really care.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: sienabrewer on June 21, 2010, 02:46:43 PM
......... This is one of the worst environmental disasters the world has ever experienced.


Is it really?  I honestly don't know, but I'm guessing many worse things have happened.  This one really hits home because its in the Gulf of Mexico.  If it was in Russia, China, Middle East or some South American backwater then we'd barely know about it.

Sadly, this has to happen close to home for Americans to really care.

I couldn't agree with you more. 
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: bluesman on June 21, 2010, 02:55:20 PM
......... This is one of the worst environmental disasters the world has ever experienced.


Is it really? 

Yes it is.

As far as the world goes there were plenty to go around.

Here's America’s Top 10 Worst Man Made Environmental Disasters. I think this oil leak will make it to the top if it is not capped soon.

http://earthfirst.com/americas-top-10-worst-man-made-environmental-disasters/

Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: a10t2 on June 21, 2010, 03:50:28 PM
Here's America’s Top 10 Worst Man Made Environmental Disasters. I think this oil leak will make it to the top if it is not capped soon.

http://earthfirst.com/americas-top-10-worst-man-made-environmental-disasters/

It would be nice to have some quantifiable explanation for, or at least the reasoning behind, that list. The fact that TMI is included makes it seem more like a fringe eco-crusader thing than a serious consideration of the environmental impacts. They should call it "Ten Environmental Disasters of Varying Degrees of Severity, In No Particular Order".
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: bluesman on June 21, 2010, 04:34:11 PM
Here's America’s Top 10 Worst Man Made Environmental Disasters. I think this oil leak will make it to the top if it is not capped soon.

http://earthfirst.com/americas-top-10-worst-man-made-environmental-disasters/

It would be nice to have some quantifiable explanation for, or at least the reasoning behind, that list. The fact that TMI is included makes it seem more like a fringe eco-crusader thing than a serious consideration of the environmental impacts. They should call it "Ten Environmental Disasters of Varying Degrees of Severity, In No Particular Order".

Agreed. It's hard to precisely measure the impact. Even harder to rank them.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: akr71 on June 21, 2010, 05:49:52 PM
Here's America’s Top 10 Worst Man Made Environmental Disasters. I think this oil leak will make it to the top if it is not capped soon.

http://earthfirst.com/americas-top-10-worst-man-made-environmental-disasters/

It would be nice to have some quantifiable explanation for, or at least the reasoning behind, that list. The fact that TMI is included makes it seem more like a fringe eco-crusader thing than a serious consideration of the environmental impacts. They should call it "Ten Environmental Disasters of Varying Degrees of Severity, In No Particular Order".

Agreed. It's hard to precisely measure the impact. Even harder to rank them.

Keep in mind that list is of US-man made disasters - Reactor #4 at Chernobyl will be unsafe for the next 20000 years.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: capozzoli on June 22, 2010, 01:54:33 AM
Yeah, I was going to say Chernobyl.

Didnt Russia have one of these deep oil leaks that they stopped with a nuclear explosion?

Beerocd may have the right idea.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: a10t2 on June 22, 2010, 04:09:00 AM
Didnt Russia have one of these deep oil leaks that they stopped with a nuclear explosion?

Not nearly this deep, though. The hydrostatic pressure means an explosion wouldn't do it, from what I gather.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: tubercle on June 22, 2010, 04:24:42 AM
I wonder why they don't just send tons of concrete down a tube and cover the thing up? Seems like the pressure of the pile of hardening concrete would eventually overcome the pressure of the oil coming out. I'm not a civil engineer, just a hillbilly that masquerades as a home brewer, but it seems like it would work.

Occam's Razor.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: tygo on June 22, 2010, 10:13:43 AM
I wonder why they don't just send tons of concrete down a tube and cover the thing up? Seems like the pressure of the pile of hardening concrete would eventually overcome the pressure of the oil coming out. I'm not a civil engineer, just a hillbilly that masquerades as a home brewer, but it seems like it would work.

Occam's Razor.

Perhaps, but then they wouldn't be able to keep pumping oil out of the well in the future, which I'm sure is a major consideration of BP's.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: bluesman on June 22, 2010, 10:33:36 AM
I wonder why they don't just send tons of concrete down a tube and cover the thing up? Seems like the pressure of the pile of hardening concrete would eventually overcome the pressure of the oil coming out. I'm not a civil engineer, just a hillbilly that masquerades as a home brewer, but it seems like it would work.

Occam's Razor.

Perhaps, but then they wouldn't be able to keep pumping oil out of the well in the future, which I'm sure is a major consideration of BP's.

B-I-N-G-O
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: loopy on June 23, 2010, 02:37:14 AM
they cannot cap the top of the well because the well is also leaking somewhere between 1000 feet and 14000 feet under the seafloor.  in multiple places.  that oil is following fissures in the rock formations (sandstone and salt formations) and escaping from the floor directly.  capping the top forces the oil out of those locations and creates a situation they cannot control.  (mysterious plumes).  there is no illusions of preserving this well for further use.  besides, there would be nothing stopping them from sinking a new well 1500 feet from the old well and getting access to the same field if that was the desire.  they still own the rights to the field ..  for now at least. 

Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: capozzoli on June 23, 2010, 02:54:10 AM
So what is the idea of drilling relief wells? Isnt that what they are trying to do now? Relieve the pressure so the repairs can be made?

If they drill relief wells wont they be keeping the oil they get?

What a mess.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: loopy on June 23, 2010, 04:05:55 AM
So what is the idea of drilling relief wells? Isnt that what they are trying to do now? Relieve the pressure so the repairs can be made?

If they drill relief wells wont they be keeping the oil they get?

What a mess.

look at this, it's a bit old but completely relevant.  

http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/05/costly_time-consuming_test_of.html

Quote
Spaces between pipes not closed off

Probert also presented Congress with a schematic of BP's cementing plan, which he repeatedly said his firm followed to a T. Although he never mentioned it in his written or verbal testimony, the drawing Probert attached to his prepared testimony May 11 shows what drilling experts say is a key design flaw that could easily have allowed a blast of natural gas to shoot to the surface undetected and destroy the rig before the crew of 126 knew what hit them.

oil-halliburton-cement-052010.jpgView full sizeThe graphic shows the wellhead 5,067 feet below the water's surface and the bottom of the well more than 13,000 feet below that. It diagrams how the drill pipes telescoped down in sections -- some about 2,000 feet long, some shorter and others longer.

With each section, one metal tube fits inside another, leaving a space called an "annulus" where heavy drilling mud can circulate and carry the drilled-out material back up to the surface. According to the diagram, one of the spaces between different-sized pipes was not closed off -- a no-no, according to some experts.

"It looks pretty on paper, but you can't accomplish that successfully and have a good cement job," said Tom McFarland, a cementing consultant from Marrero who has decades of experience cementing oil wells. "The chance of getting a good cement job on that is nil."

McFarland said the diagram indicates the space was completely open to the reservoir of oil the Deepwater Horizon had just tapped, and he is convinced that is why the well blew.

No O-ring seal depicted

McCormack, the University of Texas professor, isn't so sure that the blowout went through the annulus, rather than breaching the center of the well and blowing out the top. But either way, he was baffled by the diagram Halliburton gave to Congress. He was so surprised by the lack of an O-ring seal that he wondered if it was an error.

"There's a free path all the way to the top of the well bore. Normally you wouldn't do that," he said. "If the well was completed as designed, I think that would be an issue the way it's shown there."

A picture being worth a thousand words, here is the visual: edited - heres the link because the forum seems to be making this too smal to read.
http://media.nola.com/2010_gulf_oil_spill/photo/oil-halliburton-cement-052010jpg-e618a2271a66c847.jpg

(http://media.nola.com/2010_gulf_oil_spill/photo/oil-halliburton-cement-052010jpg-e618a2271a66c847.jpg)

--

There is a full gap in the well bore where oil and gas is escaping 10000+feet under the seafloor.  

As for your question, what is the idea of the relief wells?  

The basic premise of sealing the well is to stop the flow and seal it in concrete.  At 5000 feet under sea level (the seafloor) the pressure of the area is 2000 psi.  At 17000 feet under the sea floor, near the area of the oil, the pressure is closer to 7000 psi.  That oil is coming up and spraying like a sandblaster.  The well drilling process has processes to equalize pressures, using the "mud".  That mud is basically bentonite, the grey clay they use in sealing ponds or for fining wines.  It's a heavy clay and with the assistance of pressure pumps they pump it down to meet the pressure of oil coming up.  The idea is the balance the pressure - ie, 5000 psi pushing up and 5000 psi pushing down.  This effectively stops the flow, once they achieve that they can pump in cement and concrete like materials to perm seal it.  But they cant pump concrete into a gushing hole because it has to set and be stable.  They have to balance pressure to do that.  

They attempted to push mud in on the top via the "top kill" and all the mud just went right out the holes in the casing.  Thats why it failed.  The relief wells and the concept behind it is that they get underneath the portion of the well that is broken and begin pushing mud there.  If they can balance the pressure, then they can seal it below the broken pipe and really seal it.  

They are drilling two wells, and these reliefe wells have a target about the size of a dinner plate.  they literally intersect into the existing pipe.  once they penetrate, they begin pumping the mud to balance pressure.

Thats my understanding of the mechanics and what they are trying to do.  
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: dean on June 26, 2010, 01:24:41 PM
Its been a long while but on land, the BOP is set after the casing is put in.  Humans crawl under the BOP and installing nuts and bolts, tightening it securely.  While I've never worked on an offshore rig, I can't imagine the BOP was set any other way except that it must have been placed and tightened by submersive robots.  The rig itself would support the weight of the BOP and I'm sure there are ships plenty large enough to support another replacement.  Ocean currents were flowing there when they set the original BOP, sure they'll have a hard time seeing but that shouldn't stop them from trying... can't never did anything.  Now we're in hurricane season... No End In Sight.  

Ever wonder if this was planned...

The only thing I can say is BP better buy several thousand of the machines that K. Costner and his brother built, they look pretty promising and it would create some jobs as well.  JMO... if they can't get this fixed by Chrismas (including all ecological damages) the USA should "acquire" all of BP and its holdings, perhaps Halliburton as well.  You know as well as I do that they would seize any small company.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: loopy on July 16, 2010, 08:46:01 PM
... how we could put a man on the moon 40 years ago but cannot close a leaky pipe now.  isnt this basic plumbing?  put a cap on with the valve open, weld it, close the valve.  have we regressed that much in 40 years that it is now beyond the limits of our technology to fix a leaky pipe? 

glad to see they have it capped based on what the news is saying.  also scared witless that they did exactly what I thought was obvious a month ago.  Isn't this just basic mechnical or plumbing logic .. what the?  how on earth did it take 90 days to get this? 
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: beerocd on July 16, 2010, 10:37:10 PM
how on earth did it take 90 days to get this? 

Shipping from China by boat is slow. You don't think the part was made or stocked in the USA do you?
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: a10t2 on July 17, 2010, 12:34:26 AM
Or just because it's a massive, custom-fabricated steel part that has to withstand 5000 feet of water pressure on one side and 8000 psi of oil on the other.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: boulderbrewer on July 17, 2010, 04:42:39 AM
Maybe they should have had a homebrewer on the project. Just saying.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: brewballs on July 17, 2010, 02:13:45 PM
Quote
Or just because it's a massive, custom-fabricated steel part that has to withstand 5000 feet of water pressure on one side and 8000 psi of oil on the other.

I'm not defending BP for what happened, but I agree with the above. You don't just wave a magic wand and have a huge part like this suddenly appear.

Now we know how to fix a repair and what it takes, for the most part, to prevent one from ever happening. Now get back to drilling. We need the jobs and we need oil from our part of the world.
Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: uthristy on July 17, 2010, 04:37:23 PM

 Now get back to drilling. We need the jobs and we need oil from our part of the world.

Tell me thats a fukn joke? we lost more in tourism/food production, never mind all the damages to the gulf and your worried about a few jobs and oil...  ::) >:(  Funny how the cost of gas went down during the spill.

Yeah real smart and  thinking for the longterm but it seems that americans can only think of today.

Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: beerocd on July 17, 2010, 05:47:01 PM

I think it would be easier to put a second camera in the water aimed at something that's not leaking. Kinda moon shot, but not as dramatic. Is there anywhere we can actually watch the footage of the whole thing being capped, or did we get a leak feed then a no leak feed?

Title: Re: can someone explain
Post by: brewballs on July 17, 2010, 09:30:50 PM
Nope no joke. Now if you don't use any energy or oil byproducts, then kudos to you, but I, and most other people, can't say that.