Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: RPIScotty on December 29, 2015, 02:07:00 PM

Title: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: RPIScotty on December 29, 2015, 02:07:00 PM
This one is aimed squarely at Mark:

Much of the best information about the method, specifically the "meat and potatoes"  of the analytical information, is spread out across 2 or 3 very long, very good threads.

I've found myself digging through them the last few days looking for bits and pieces of specific interest.

Do you think you could provide a brief overview (maybe it can become a sticky?) of the concepts of maximum cell density of starter volume, replication time, benefits of the method including yeast vitality, pitching at high krausen, vessel size, etc. and any other pertinent info?

Also to Jim:

Can you provide some insight into your 1LO2HK variation, i.e. process, O2 amounts, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on December 29, 2015, 02:33:11 PM
1LO2HK Starter for 6 gallon batches

1. Prepare starter wort in 1/2 gallon canning jars 7.5%-10% w/v 1.030-1.040 with a pinch of nutrients. These are autoclaved in a pressure cooker 15min at 15psi. Stored at room temp.

2. On the morning of brew day, in a sanitizer vessel at least 2L in size, add 1L starter wort. Oxygenate thru a stainless sintered stone with pure oxygen until the wort foam fill the flask. Pitch yeast. Cover with foil.  One 1L starter for up to 1.070 ale, Two 1L starters for lagers. I suspect you could get away with one, but I use two.

3. Place in fermentation chamber set at appropriate temp. With lager yeast, store jars of wort in fermentation chamber over night at lager pitching temp to avoid yo-yo-ing the temp of the yeast.

4. Pitch at "high krausen". Pitch the whole shebang, everything but the flask and foil. What were looking for is getting the yeast well into log phase at least. High krausen can be difficult to detect. So this is what works for me - Pitch ale at 8hrs - Pitch lager at 12 hrs
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: RPIScotty on December 29, 2015, 02:33:55 PM
Thanks Jim.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on December 29, 2015, 03:00:01 PM
Thanks Jim.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're welcome. The biggest worry I hear is off flavors or dilution by pitching the whole starter. Well, I dont experience that. I just submitted two light lagers to a couple Grand Master judges and neither complained of anything that I see directly connects to my pitching two liters of starter. You can read that on the Rube Goldberg thread. Maybe someone else would extrapolate a comment into blaming the starters, but I dont. And bottom line is, its what I do. I'm not trying to change anyone. In fact, I plan to compete this year so maybe it would be good for me if no one else did it this way for a while LOL.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: RPIScotty on December 29, 2015, 03:05:15 PM

You're welcome. The biggest worry I hear is off flavors or dilution by pitching the whole starter.

I'd say:

1.) The off flavor thing seemed to have derived from people pitching a Crap load of Starter wort that was stirred into their beer. This method seems to mitigate that concern.

2.) If you account for the extra volume upfront during recipe creation then dilution shouldn't be an issue. People who complain about that didn't plan well enough.

Good to hear you've had good results Jim.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: S. cerevisiae on December 30, 2015, 12:42:12 AM
I believe that I posted the entire process in the 26+ page thread.  I may do a blog post on the process in the future, but I have no desire to revisit the topic because that thread tested my patience.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: RPIScotty on December 30, 2015, 01:19:10 AM
Understood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on December 30, 2015, 01:22:00 AM
I feel for you Mark. I like RPIs idea though. Maybe one day when you blog it, you could link it to a fresh thread that could be stickied.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: RPIScotty on December 30, 2015, 01:24:47 AM

I believe that I posted the entire process in the 26+ page thread.  I may do a blog post on the process in the future, but I have no desire to revisit the topic because that thread tested my patience.

Can you briefly touch upon the concept of maximum cell density?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: S. cerevisiae on December 30, 2015, 02:19:42 AM
http://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/yeast-cultures-are-nuclear-weapons
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: erockrph on December 30, 2015, 05:46:49 AM

You're welcome. The biggest worry I hear is off flavors or dilution by pitching the whole starter.

I'd say:

1.) The off flavor thing seemed to have derived from people pitching a Crap load of Starter wort that was stirred into their beer. This method seems to mitigate that concern.

2.) If you account for the extra volume upfront during recipe creation then dilution shouldn't be an issue. People who complain about that didn't plan well enough.

Good to hear you've had good results Jim.
I'm willing to bet that a lot of the off flavor concerns come from pitching a large starter that was allowed to finish out and had plenty of chance to oxidize since the yeast had finished up and the starter was allowed unfettered access to oxygen. By pitching at high krausen, the yeast are still plenty active and oxygen pickup/oxidation of the starter wort isn't a concern.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: pete b on December 30, 2015, 01:05:50 PM
It would be cool if AHA added the SNS technique to the "how to brew" section of their site.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on December 30, 2015, 01:11:01 PM
Totally. I can see a valid dilution concern though, to be open minded about it. Especially in very delicate beers like I've been dealing with in the Rube Goldberg thread. Its not easy to get pils malt to "showcase" in a sub 1.050 beer to begin with let alone after adding 2L of 1.030 DME wort/beer. In my next go around I'm taking a step of faith and only pitching one 1LO2HK starter per 6 gal just to see what happens. But in a bigger bolder lager, I trust the results I've seen from pitching two of them.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: jeffy on December 30, 2015, 01:18:46 PM
Have you given any thought to cold crashing the starter while it is at high kreusen and decanting it?
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 30, 2015, 01:22:11 PM
Totally. I can see a valid dilution concern though, to be open minded about it. Especially in very delicate beers like I've been dealing with in the Rube Goldberg thread. Its not easy to get pils malt to "showcase" in a sub 1.050 beer to begin with let alone after adding 2L of 1.030 DME wort/beer. In my next go around I'm taking a step of faith and only pitching one 1LO2HK starter per 6 gal just to see what happens. But in a bigger bolder lager, I trust the results I've seen from pitching two of them.


That's my concern with lagers. I've done SNS on ales of 5-7% and liked it alot, but I'm just not gonna pitch that much starter wort into a lager, for the reasons you mention.  My two upcoming lagers are gonna get the old fashioned 'crash and decant' method.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 30, 2015, 02:18:24 PM
Have you given any thought to cold crashing the starter while it is at high kreusen and decanting it?
I tried that with a lager, the yeast didn't drop out in the fridge, there was still some Krauesen at the top the nest day, and the starter was cloudy from the yeast. You might have to get closer to freezing to crash some lager yeast.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: mabrungard on December 30, 2015, 02:27:58 PM
Have you given any thought to cold crashing the starter while it is at high kreusen and decanting it?
I tried that with a lager, the yeast didn't drop out in the fridge, there was still some Krauesen at the top the nest day, and the starter was cloudy from the yeast. You might have to get closer to freezing to crash some lager yeast.

Yeast are somewhat resistant to flocculation when there are still sugars in solution. I would not be surprised that it takes significant cold to get them to drop at high krauesen.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: pete b on December 30, 2015, 02:43:05 PM
You could make a starter out of second runnings and pitch the whole shebang in 18 hours.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: ynotbrusum on January 01, 2016, 06:23:11 PM
You could make a starter out of second runnings and pitch the whole shebang in 18 hours.

This works well for me.  I take the late mid to tail runnings or on light lagers, just the whole wort as collected and use that as my starter...works great and I don't rush the pitching this way - I just have to post a note to myself to remember to pitch the yeast (I brew early in the day, so my starter is usually rocking nicely by bedtime.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Chino Brews on January 11, 2016, 11:49:23 PM

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the off flavor concerns come from pitching a large starter that was allowed to finish out and had plenty of chance to oxidize since the yeast had finished up and the starter was allowed unfettered access to oxygen. By pitching at high krausen, the yeast are still plenty active and oxygen pickup/oxidation of the starter wort isn't a concern.

Exactly. Too many people are making unhopped, oxidized, DME beer on stir plates, as opposed to propagating yeast. If you match your SNS starter wort to the underlying malt character of your recipe (e.g., Extra Light Pilsen DME if the main base malt is Pilsen Malt) and adjust the recipe appropriately, one liter SNS starter pitched at 12-18 hours shouldn't have a perceptible impact on the beer. I don't see how it is much different than adjusting a missed OG by adding DME.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: tommymorris on May 01, 2016, 10:44:00 PM
This starter owes me money...

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160501/d1de49326004cacc719a47c87dacdf5b.jpg)
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on May 01, 2016, 10:52:26 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Hooper on May 02, 2016, 02:11:41 AM
A ton of this hobby is applying common sense...it seems like a ton of folks are not in touch with that...
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on May 02, 2016, 02:41:37 AM
Alestateyall just motivated me to pull a couple slants of 2352 out and start propagating them for my next brewday. Got my mini flasks in the autoclave now.

Using Saccharomyces' size rule of 4 times larger, I've got a couple 100ml pyrex erlenmyers to shake 25mls like it owes me money. (Step 1)
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: tommymorris on May 02, 2016, 02:43:57 AM
A ton of this hobby is applying common sense...it seems like a ton of folks are not in touch with that...
?
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on May 02, 2016, 02:47:28 AM
A ton of this hobby is applying common sense...it seems like a ton of folks are not in touch with that...
?
I think he means you are applying common sense
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: tommymorris on May 02, 2016, 02:48:21 AM
A ton of this hobby is applying common sense...it seems like a ton of folks are not in touch with that...
?
I think he means you are applying common sense
Oh. Sorry I misunderstood.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Steve Ruch on May 02, 2016, 09:32:20 PM
A ton of this hobby is applying common sense...it seems like a ton of folks are not in touch with that...

A guy that I used to work with often said, "Why is common sense so uncommon?"
He was usually drunk when he said it.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: blair.streit on May 02, 2016, 09:58:43 PM
A ton of this hobby is applying common sense...it seems like a ton of folks are not in touch with that...

A guy that I used to work with often said, "Why is common sense so uncommon?"
He was usually drunk when he said it.
Leaving aside discussions of medians, means and other statistical errata, I always liked the George Carlin version:
Quote
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
I'm usually doing something stupid when I think of it  ;)
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Saccharomyces on May 02, 2016, 11:44:18 PM
This starter owes me money...

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160501/d1de49326004cacc719a47c87dacdf5b.jpg)

I'd say!
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on May 05, 2016, 12:19:38 AM
First try at propagation from a slant. Two days ago I pulled a little bit from a slant and inoculated 20ml. This morning I pitched those to 200ml. I think its actually working. What an amazing hobby!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/92f6bfdb350eadd5c016c7a99bc07892.jpg)
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Saccharomyces on May 05, 2016, 12:34:15 AM
First try at propagation from a slant. Two days ago I pulled a little bit from a slant and inoculated 20ml. This morning I pitched those to 200ml. I think its actually working. What an amazing hobby!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/92f6bfdb350eadd5c016c7a99bc07892.jpg)

Welcome to a fascinating hobby within a fascinating hobby! This event is the start of a completely new brewing experience, one without limits placed on you by the major yeast propagators.  Every culture in the world is available to brewers who can propagate from slant or a spec of lyophilized yeast shipped in a glass ampule.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on May 05, 2016, 12:56:18 AM
First try at propagation from a slant. Two days ago I pulled a little bit from a slant and inoculated 20ml. This morning I pitched those to 200ml. I think its actually working. What an amazing hobby!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/92f6bfdb350eadd5c016c7a99bc07892.jpg)

Welcome to a fascinating hobby within a fascinating hobby! This event is the start of completely new brewing experience, one without limits placed on you by the major yeast propagators.  Every culture in the world is available to brewers who can propagate from slant or a spec of lyophilized yeast shipped in a glass ampule.
And I owe it to you, buddy. Thanks!
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: JT on May 05, 2016, 12:56:28 AM
Amazing.  Great job!  This fascinates me, but I know it is too time consuming for what I have available right now.  I'll live vicariously!
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: yso191 on May 05, 2016, 01:11:24 AM
Yep, good job Jim!  Sometime I'll get into this.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on May 05, 2016, 01:14:31 AM
Thanks guys. Its really not that tough or time consuming. Pretty fun to see it work though
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: tommymorris on May 05, 2016, 03:28:34 AM
Very cool.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: dilluh98 on May 05, 2016, 12:58:12 PM
Amazing.  Great job!  This fascinates me, but I know it is too time consuming for what I have available right now.  I'll live vicariously!

Me too.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Phil_M on May 05, 2016, 01:33:17 PM
I've made slants, but still haven't been brave enough to use them. Your success is encouraging!
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Saccharomyces on May 05, 2016, 11:14:58 PM
I've made slants, but still haven't been brave enough to use them. Your success is encouraging!

Phil, you need to go for it!  Propagating a culture from slant is easier than taking a liquid culture through the single cell isolation process.  You will be good as long as you perform your initial inoculation aseptically into autoclaved wort within the sphere of your sterile zone.   You need to determine how wide the sterile zone is around your alcohol lamp or Bunsen burner.  If you feel heat, then you can be fairly certain that there is an updraft that prevents dust from settling in/on your culture.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Phil_M on May 05, 2016, 11:31:18 PM
You need to determine how wide the sterile zone is around your alcohol lamp or Bunsen burner.  If you feel heat, then you can be fairly certain that there is an updraft that prevents dust from settling in/on your culture.

I've wondered how to tell that actually. I have been working as close to the flame as I can. Even ended up singing the hair off my arm once, though I was not burned.

I'll admit: I also haven't tried because I haven't just been interested in using the yeast I have banked! :P

I banked two strains as "practice": dregs from a Sweetwater beer (Their white IPA, which uses a "Belgian Strong Ale" yeast, and Wyeast 3787.) This was to get some experience and see how things went before trying to bank the WL835 that I ordered from the WL vault.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: blair.streit on May 05, 2016, 11:36:15 PM
I've made slants, but still haven't been brave enough to use them. Your success is encouraging!
You need to determine how wide the sterile zone is around your alcohol lamp or Bunsen burner.  If you feel heat, then you can be fairly certain that there is an updraft that prevents dust from settling in/on your culture.
Would a countertop space adjacent to the burner on gas stove work fine for this or are there practical reasons I'm not thinking of that would make it less than ideal?
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Saccharomyces on May 06, 2016, 12:32:40 AM
Would a countertop space adjacent to the burner on gas stove work fine for this or are there practical reasons I'm not thinking of that would make it less than ideal?

Most stoves are not anywhere near clean enough to provide an aseptic zone.  White Labs uses a laminar flow hood for low-level cultures.  I use a table that is used for little other than culturing.  I clean the top with Scrubbing Bubbles, before giving it a 70% isopropyl wipe.  I then spray and wipe my alcohol lamp or Bunsen burner with 70% ispropyl alcohol, and let the alcohol flash off before starting my culturing session.  I primarily use an alcohol lamp (a.k.a. spirit lamp) because the flame is less harsh, and it is an order of magnitude safer than a propane fired Bunsen burner.   I rarely used gloves when I was younger.  I merely cleaned my hands with Scrubbing Bubbles and then with alcohol.  However, that routine wreaks havoc one's skin, so I wear nitrile exam gloves these days while culturing.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: blair.streit on May 06, 2016, 12:35:30 AM
Thanks. I figured I was overlooking several reasons that was a bad idea.

Ok, so ideally a stainless surface or something you can scrub and flame (and not cut fruit or cook chili on). Makes sense.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on May 06, 2016, 12:44:55 AM
I use a sheet of aluminum foil.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: blair.streit on May 06, 2016, 01:02:42 AM
I use a sheet of aluminum foil.
That seems doable. Still I get his point that the area around my stove is probably suboptimal in several other ways.

I'll spread the aluminum foil over my toilet instead ;-)
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Phil_M on May 06, 2016, 01:06:42 AM
I used soft scrub on the counter with a clean sponge, which was then used to get enough liquid up that the rest air dried. As far as my hands, I just made sure my fingernail were neatly trimmed and that they were well scrubbed.

Some of that may change, Saccharomyces' routine has piqued my paranoia about sanitization techniques.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on February 18, 2018, 02:22:57 PM
Bumped for fun.

Reading this over... I guess I've been doing active starters for about 4 years now. Time flies

I no longer use 2 active starters for lagers. Everything gets just one, even huge beers.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Stevie on February 18, 2018, 03:04:58 PM
I’ve been doing this since my stir plate died. I follow a two step process with a 2qt starter that I allow to ferment out, crash and split. This gives me a little extra insurance that my yeast is good before I make my shaken starter brewday morning.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on February 18, 2018, 03:15:02 PM
I’ve been doing this since my stir plate died. I follow a two step process with a 2qt starter that I allow to ferment out, crash and split. This gives me a little extra insurance that my yeast is good before I make my shaken starter brewday morning.
Cool idea. I donate to the cause at my lhbs lol
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Stevie on February 18, 2018, 04:11:54 PM
I still buy yeast every few batches and do this step with the new yeast as well. Too many brewdays where my starter didn’t take off. Happened with the stir plate as well. I think that is why many still feel the need to make a starter days in advance.

I’m also horrible with scheduling and often buy yeast and let it sit. I have three sour cultures, a Brett, and wlp810 that I’ve been meaning to use for months now. Infants aren’t very understanding of hobbies.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: klickitat jim on February 18, 2018, 04:17:17 PM
I'm lucky to have a yeast factory in the neighborhood. They don't sell to individuals, but I can get less than 7 day old packs every Tuesday at my LHBS. I shoot him an email with a will call list, and add Kellers to my wife's shopping list. Rarely use yeast over a month old
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: Philbrew on February 21, 2018, 04:02:43 AM
I'm lucky to have a yeast factory in the neighborhood. They don't sell to individuals, but I can get less than 7 day old packs every Tuesday at my LHBS. I shoot him an email with a will call list, and add Kellers to my wife's shopping list. Rarely use yeast over a month old
I may have to try that.  Kellers is cool.
Title: Re: "Shaken, not Stirred" Summary
Post by: coolman26 on February 21, 2018, 02:25:49 PM
I'm lucky to have a yeast factory in the neighborhood. They don't sell to individuals, but I can get less than 7 day old packs every Tuesday at my LHBS. I shoot him an email with a will call list, and add Kellers to my wife's shopping list. Rarely use yeast over a month old
Wow, you are lucky. When I buy local it almost always 3 mo old. It doesn’t bother me. I just spent the last few weeks waking up all my yeast that was a year old. The WY products woke right up. Had some slow starts from the other in the new packaging. One day I’ll give this a try. I could see your fresh yeast being an advantage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk