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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 11, 2016, 02:33:48 PM

Title: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 11, 2016, 02:33:48 PM
Let's assume or pretend that I don't have a fermentation issue. Is there any reason to expect such a large difference in attenuation for the two beers below?

Beer 1:
85% pilsner
15% vienna
Mash at 152F for 60 minutes
1.053 > 1.011
W34/70 - under-pitched - 80% attenuation

Beer 2:
100% red x
mash at 152F for 60 minutes
1.051 > 1.016
W34/70 from beer 1 (calculated using mr malty) - 67.5% attenuation
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 11, 2016, 02:39:10 PM
if your wondering if the malt is the reason-I'd say its not likely. redx didnt cause any issues when ive used.

but as you probably suspect- yeast pitched (health, qty) and fermentation would be where I would look.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 11, 2016, 02:45:00 PM
if your wondering if the malt is the reason-I'd say its not likely. redx didnt cause any issues when ive used.

but as you probably suspect- yeast pitched (health, qty) and fermentation would be where I would look.

Right. I just thought it was curious that the underpitched beer would attenuate more than the beer that used 1 week old slurry. That must have nothing to do with it.

Could it have something to do with the fact that I repitched the slurry from the underpitched beer? I find it funny that I get better results from doing things incorrectly (underpitching). I guess there are a lot of other factors at play here. Maybe the wort was not oxyegenated well or something else...
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 11, 2016, 02:50:06 PM
right, could be any of the variables you mentioned...
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: kramerog on January 11, 2016, 03:06:35 PM
Malt X has a lot less enzymes than pilsener and Vienna so the wort is more dextrinous.  From what I can glean from the internet, it has barely enough enyzmes to convert so about 1/3 of that of pilsenser and Vienna. 
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: brewinhard on January 11, 2016, 03:35:17 PM
Malt X has a lot less enzymes than pilsener and Vienna so the wort is more dextrinous.  From what I can glean from the internet, it has barely enough enyzmes to convert so about 1/3 of that of pilsenser and Vienna.

Interesting.  So maybe lack of full conversion at 152F?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 11, 2016, 03:54:02 PM
I had no issue with all redx attenuating. mashed 150F and went from 1.055 to 1.010 with wlp090.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: klickitat jim on January 11, 2016, 03:54:17 PM
Ive made multiple 100% Red X beers and have not had this problem.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: The Beerery on January 11, 2016, 04:19:47 PM
You didn't get full conversion. Is it safe to assume you didn't perform a iodine test?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: denny on January 11, 2016, 04:57:34 PM
You didn't get full conversion. Is it safe to assume you didn't perform a iodine test?

How can you conclude that he didn't get full conversion  Why couldn't it be something else?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 11, 2016, 06:07:28 PM
Thanks all. Sounds like I either didn't get full conversion which I had not considered or had a fermentation problem.

The sample tasted good so I am ok with it. I added 4 oz of sugar, roused the yeast, and raised the temp a bit in attempt get squeeze out a couple more points...
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: kramerog on January 11, 2016, 09:11:48 PM
Thanks all. Sounds like I either didn't get full conversion which I had not considered or had a fermentation problem.

The sample tasted good so I am ok with it. I added 4 oz of sugar, roused the yeast, and raised the temp a bit in attempt get squeeze out a couple more points...
You can have full starch conversion, but still have a dextrinous wort.  You can do a fast ferment test to determine if you have a yeast or mash issue.

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 13, 2016, 03:00:44 PM
I have not taken a final reading however something occurred to me...

A similar situation occurred recently when repitching K97 slurry into a brown ale. The attenuation was much lower than expected and others here suggested it is likely due depleted oxygen reserves from the dry yeast and that I did not aerate well enough. At least that is what I took from it. Is this possibly the case here? If so, it seems that my aeration method works well in direct pitching scenarios but not when repitching slurry.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: kramerog on January 15, 2016, 02:20:00 PM
Could be insufficient aeration over 2 pitches that is the problem.

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Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 15, 2016, 03:02:12 PM
There seems to be something wrong with my process (aeration) when repitching dry yeast slurry. I don't do it very often but I seem to have more issues when I do. For me, the savings in money doesn't appear to be worth the headache.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: brewinhard on January 15, 2016, 03:04:20 PM
If you repitched  a dry yeast from a previous fermentation (slurry) with poor aeration, then that could definitely be your issue. While dry yeast reportedly does not need oxygen in its initial use, subsequent generations will most definitely be oxygen deprived and in great need of proper aeration to fully attenuate your next batch of wort.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: brewinhard on January 15, 2016, 03:05:42 PM
There seems to be something wrong with my process (aeration) when repitching dry yeast slurry. I don't do it very often but I seem to have more issues when I do. For me, the savings in money doesn't appear to be worth the headache.

+1 to this.  For the low cost of most dry ale yeast, I pretty much use a new rehydrated pack each time.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 15, 2016, 03:11:43 PM
I am glad to find the cause. Until I change my aeration process, I know to just direct pitch straight from the sachets.

I kegged the beer a couple of days ago. The final reading was 1.015 so not horrible by any means. This was my 4th lager. The 3 before it went better than planned and this was my first hiccup.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: The Beerery on January 15, 2016, 03:14:44 PM
You really need to be getting these lagers to 2.5p and below. 3.8p is syrup sweet.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 15, 2016, 03:16:33 PM
You really need to be getting these lagers to 2.5p and below. 3.8p is syrup sweet.

I am good with it. Tastes fine to me.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: The Beerery on January 15, 2016, 03:21:15 PM
 :o Ok.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 15, 2016, 03:23:28 PM
:o Ok.

Sorry. I am one of those lager novice's that drive you crazy. This isn't a German lager and the FG fits within the style guidelines for what I was going for. It is not ideal but I am good with it  :o

Are you willing to give me some helpful advice on how to get my lager down below 3.8p or provide input on the possible problem?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: The Beerery on January 15, 2016, 03:27:47 PM
:o Ok.

Sorry. I am one of those lager novice's that drive you crazy. This isn't a German lager and the FG fits within the style guidelines for what I was going for. It is not ideal but I am good with it  :o

Are you willing to give me some helpful advice on how to get my lager down below 3.8p or provide input on the possible problem?


Without FFT's you don't know what kind of wort your are making. So FFT's, along with plenty of healthy oxygenated yeast. That should get you on the map.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 15, 2016, 03:33:46 PM
:o Ok.

Sorry. I am one of those lager novice's that drive you crazy. This isn't a German lager and the FG fits within the style guidelines for what I was going for. It is not ideal but I am good with it  :o

Are you willing to give me some helpful advice on how to get my lager down below 3.8p or provide input on the possible problem?


Without FFT's you don't know what kind of wort your are making. So FFT's, along with plenty of healthy oxygenated yeast. That should get you on the map.

Great thanks.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: denny on January 15, 2016, 04:00:43 PM
If you repitched  a dry yeast from a previous fermentation (slurry) with poor aeration, then that could definitely be your issue. While dry yeast reportedly does not need oxygen in its initial use, subsequent generations will most definitely be oxygen deprived and in great need of proper aeration to fully attenuate your next batch of wort.

Hmmmm...if oxygen is used to synthesize sterols needed for yeast reproduction, but you already have a heavy population of yeast cells, do you really need aeration?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Joe Sr. on January 15, 2016, 04:36:52 PM
If you repitched  a dry yeast from a previous fermentation (slurry) with poor aeration, then that could definitely be your issue. While dry yeast reportedly does not need oxygen in its initial use, subsequent generations will most definitely be oxygen deprived and in great need of proper aeration to fully attenuate your next batch of wort.

Why would a slurry from an initial pitch of dry yeast be any different from a slurry from a Wyeast pitch?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: narcout on January 15, 2016, 05:40:56 PM
If you repitched  a dry yeast from a previous fermentation (slurry) with poor aeration, then that could definitely be your issue. While dry yeast reportedly does not need oxygen in its initial use, subsequent generations will most definitely be oxygen deprived and in great need of proper aeration to fully attenuate your next batch of wort.

Hmmmm...if oxygen is used to synthesize sterols needed for yeast reproduction, but you already have a heavy population of yeast cells, do you really need aeration?

If you believe in the gospel according to S. Cerevisiae: (i) yeast cells harvested at the end of fermentation have reached quiescence and have low ergosterol and UFA reserves, (ii) ergosterol and UFA reserves help keep cell walls pliable, (iii) low pliability negatively affects the ability of yeast to attenuate extract as it makes it more difficult for nutrients and waste to pass in and out of cells, (iv) since yeast use O2 to synthesize ergosterol and UFA, cells with low ergosterol and UFA reserves have higher O2 demands and benefit from proper aeration/oxygenation.

Not my own knowledge, just paraphrasing...
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: brewinhard on January 15, 2016, 05:46:52 PM
If you repitched  a dry yeast from a previous fermentation (slurry) with poor aeration, then that could definitely be your issue. While dry yeast reportedly does not need oxygen in its initial use, subsequent generations will most definitely be oxygen deprived and in great need of proper aeration to fully attenuate your next batch of wort.

Why would a slurry from an initial pitch of dry yeast be any different from a slurry from a Wyeast pitch?

I don't believe it is.  Both are oxygen deprived and in need of a good healthy dose of aeration.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Joe Sr. on January 15, 2016, 05:52:38 PM
If you repitched  a dry yeast from a previous fermentation (slurry) with poor aeration, then that could definitely be your issue. While dry yeast reportedly does not need oxygen in its initial use, subsequent generations will most definitely be oxygen deprived and in great need of proper aeration to fully attenuate your next batch of wort.

Why would a slurry from an initial pitch of dry yeast be any different from a slurry from a Wyeast pitch?

I don't believe it is.  Both are oxygen deprived and in need of a good healthy dose of aeration.

OK.  Agreed.  I seemed odd to me that a number of posts kept referencing dry yeast.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: brewinhard on January 15, 2016, 05:56:02 PM
If you repitched  a dry yeast from a previous fermentation (slurry) with poor aeration, then that could definitely be your issue. While dry yeast reportedly does not need oxygen in its initial use, subsequent generations will most definitely be oxygen deprived and in great need of proper aeration to fully attenuate your next batch of wort.

Why would a slurry from an initial pitch of dry yeast be any different from a slurry from a Wyeast pitch?

I don't believe it is.  Both are oxygen deprived and in need of a good healthy dose of aeration.

OK.  Agreed.  I seemed odd to me that a number of posts kept referencing dry yeast.

I thought the OP stated that he had re-pitched a slurry from a dry yeast packet so I was just referencing that.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 15, 2016, 06:01:41 PM
This particular instance is related to repitching W34/70 slurry. I recently had a similar issue with K97 slurry.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: ynotbrusum on January 15, 2016, 10:24:10 PM
I think the dry lager yeasts really hit their stride in the 3rd, 4th and 5th use (the most I have taken one out is about 8 uses, IIRC - compared to 24+ pitches on a liquid lager yeast a while back).  I religiously feed yeast nutrient to all yeasts that are re-pitched. 

The first re-pitching of 34/70 can be a bit of a crap shoot, it seems, but I aerate the heck out of it (favoring O2 by stone with that situation) and give it a healthy dose of Wyeast nutrient in the last 10 minutes of the boil to give it the best chance to finish off well.  I will overshoot Mr. Malty's suggested volume of yeast, as well on the second pitch of 34/70.

No science to back this, just anecdotal experience on this one.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: brewinhard on January 15, 2016, 11:52:11 PM
(the most I have taken one out is about 8 uses, IIRC - compared to 24+ pitches on a liquid lager yeast a while back).  I religiously feed yeast nutrient to all yeasts that are re-pitched. 

Wow! 24 pitches with no issues? That is crazy on the home-brew level or is this commercial? 

+1 to yeast nutrient on repitches.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: ynotbrusum on January 16, 2016, 03:00:11 AM
Homebrew and all kinds of colors and strengths, but with greater strength it required greater pitches.  If your sanitation is good, then you should not have problems.  I finally gave up because I wanted to switch to a different yeast.  I think it was WLP 830 or 800.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: brewinhard on January 16, 2016, 07:41:02 PM
Homebrew and all kinds of colors and strengths, but with greater strength it required greater pitches.  If your sanitation is good, then you should not have problems.  I finally gave up because I wanted to switch to a different yeast.  I think it was WLP 830 or 800.

Good to know and better to try out!  Thanks!
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: charles1968 on January 18, 2016, 08:26:45 AM
The two things that occurred to me are: beer 2 hasn't finished yet; did you aerate the wort sufficiently for beer 2?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 18, 2016, 02:53:50 PM
The two things that occurred to me are: beer 2 hasn't finished yet; did you aerate the wort sufficiently for beer 2?

As mentioned, the most likely culprit appears to be that beer 2 was not aerated sufficiently in accordance with repitching dry yeast slurry. I used my normal aeration practice which works fine with initial pitches.

The Beerery was right. The beer is unfortunately sweet after further tastings. I wouldn't go with 'syrupy sweet' but definitely not what I was hoping for.

I am considering adding some gypsum to the keg. Is that even a worthwhile thought?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: santoch on January 18, 2016, 04:11:46 PM
Adding Gypsum won't fix sweetness.  If it was me, I'd consider the following options:

1) De-gas and repitch another new active starter
or
2) Blend it with a new batch that is over-bittered and has attenuated completely
or
4) De-gas, throw in some fruit and re-pitch
or
4) Add a hop-shot to increase perceived bitterness
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 18, 2016, 04:17:50 PM
Adding Gypsum won't fix sweetness.  If it was me, I'd consider the following options:

1) De-gas and repitch another new active starter
or
2) Blend it with a new batch that is over-bittered and has attenuated completely
or
4) De-gas, throw in some fruit and re-pitch
or
4) Add a hop-shot to increase perceived bitterness

Ok thanks. If it wasn't aerated enough to begin with, will pitching more yeast help?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: denny on January 18, 2016, 04:22:41 PM
Adding Gypsum won't fix sweetness.  If it was me, I'd consider the following options:

1) De-gas and repitch another new active starter
or
2) Blend it with a new batch that is over-bittered and has attenuated completely
or
4) De-gas, throw in some fruit and re-pitch
or
4) Add a hop-shot to increase perceived bitterness

Ok thanks. If it wasn't aerated enough to begin with, will pitching more yeast help?

Maybe.  But without doing an FFT (did I miss that you did?) you don't know if the issue is the wort or the yeast.
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 18, 2016, 04:27:54 PM
Adding Gypsum won't fix sweetness.  If it was me, I'd consider the following options:

1) De-gas and repitch another new active starter
or
2) Blend it with a new batch that is over-bittered and has attenuated completely
or
4) De-gas, throw in some fruit and re-pitch
or
4) Add a hop-shot to increase perceived bitterness

Ok thanks. If it wasn't aerated enough to begin with, will pitching more yeast help?

Maybe.  But without doing an FFT (did I miss that you did?) you don't know if the issue is the wort or the yeast.

I did do a FFT which I kind of forgot about. I didn't budge.

I am considering just adding some gypsum and possibly a bit of lactic acid to the keg. It may not help much but it can't hurt.

Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: denny on January 18, 2016, 05:03:06 PM
Adding Gypsum won't fix sweetness.  If it was me, I'd consider the following options:

1) De-gas and repitch another new active starter
or
2) Blend it with a new batch that is over-bittered and has attenuated completely
or
4) De-gas, throw in some fruit and re-pitch
or
4) Add a hop-shot to increase perceived bitterness

Ok thanks. If it wasn't aerated enough to begin with, will pitching more yeast help?

Maybe.  But without doing an FFT (did I miss that you did?) you don't know if the issue is the wort or the yeast.

I did do a FFT which I kind of forgot about. I didn't budge.

I am considering just adding some gypsum and possibly a bit of lactic acid to the keg. It may not help much but it can't hurt.

In that case yeast isn't gonna help.  How about blending?
Title: Re: wort makeup and attenuation
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 18, 2016, 05:13:13 PM
Adding Gypsum won't fix sweetness.  If it was me, I'd consider the following options:

1) De-gas and repitch another new active starter
or
2) Blend it with a new batch that is over-bittered and has attenuated completely
or
4) De-gas, throw in some fruit and re-pitch
or
4) Add a hop-shot to increase perceived bitterness

Ok thanks. If it wasn't aerated enough to begin with, will pitching more yeast help?

Maybe.  But without doing an FFT (did I miss that you did?) you don't know if the issue is the wort or the yeast.

I did do a FFT which I kind of forgot about. I didn't budge.

I am considering just adding some gypsum and possibly a bit of lactic acid to the keg. It may not help much but it can't hurt.

In that case yeast isn't gonna help.  How about blending?

It just got adequately carbed up over the weekend. Blending is probably the best solution. I am going to have a couple more samples and decide what to do. I may just leave it alone if it is decent enough...