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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: troy@uk on June 20, 2010, 11:01:25 AM

Title: IPA or IPL?
Post by: troy@uk on June 20, 2010, 11:01:25 AM
I made an English IPA in all respects except the yeast and fermentation.  I had just finished fermenting a Munich Helles using White Labs 838 Southern German Lager yeast. It attenuates lower than some yeasts so I thought I would use it for my English IPA. It worked great and won a blue ribbon in the IPA sub catagory of a competition.  Now I'm wondering if I was wrong to enter a lager in an ale catagory?
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: denny on June 20, 2010, 01:22:23 PM
It's only wrong if it doesn't taste like an IPA.  The ingredients don't really matter.  It's all about the finished beer.
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: The Professor on June 20, 2010, 03:10:13 PM
It's only wrong if it doesn't taste like an IPA.  The ingredients don't really matter.  It's all about the finished beer.

Right on.  I don't think that this can be emphasized enough. 
If it looks like an IPA and tastes like an IPA, there's no reason to call in anything else... and if you're entering it in a comp, that's the right category.  The fact that it took a blue ribbon is proof of concept enough. 

I know folks that have won awards for 'lagers' made with 05/1056/001...in one case, even with a highly respected German trained brewmaster on the judging panel.
So definitely,  while tradition and authenticity is nice, it's ultimately the end result that really matters more than how you get there.
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: beerocd on June 20, 2010, 04:39:43 PM
it's ultimately the end result that really matters more than how you get there.

So long as the rules are the same for everyone I suppose it's ok. But I will say I would expect an ALE to not use Lager yeast; just like I wouldn't expect cat meat in my sweet and sour pork. I don't care how well you prepare it, it's not what the name implies it is.

Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: troy@uk on June 20, 2010, 05:20:00 PM
I appriciate the input and as I suspected there would be differing opinions, which is great.  I understand that using the wrong/inappropriate ingrediants can cause a beer to be in the wrong style.  I also entered a Munich Helles that was excellent, but used American Hops instead of German hops, still a great beer but as the judge was very clear to point out (22 pts) it was NOT a MUNICH.  I revisited the BJCP styles and there are some catagories clearly named lager or ale, but some are named beer or not at all (porter, stout), so I see the point about a mis-labled product.  I think I should have placed the Helles in catagory 23, but I am still leaning toward the IPA catagory for my IPL.
  Where do we draw the line?  I know, DWHAHB.
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: The Professor on June 20, 2010, 05:49:10 PM
I appriciate the input and as I suspected there would be differing opinions, which is great.  I understand that using the wrong/inappropriate ingrediants can cause a beer to be in the wrong style.  I also entered a Munich Helles that was excellent, but used American Hops instead of German hops, still a great beer but as the judge was very clear to point out (22 pts) it was NOT a MUNICH.  I revisited the BJCP styles and there are some catagories clearly named lager or ale, but some are named beer or not at all (porter, stout), so I see the point about a mis-labled product.  I think I should have placed the Helles in catagory 23, but I am still leaning toward the IPA catagory for my IPL.
  Where do we draw the line?  I know, DWHAHB.

I'm not clear on why a line has to be drawn at all. 
If whatever process or ingredients you use achieve a result that reflects a given "style" of beer and has the right flavor and other characteristics of a given "style", then that is the "style" you produced.  The end result is what matters.   
By using ingredients at hand and manipulating them as well as the brewing methods,  you're simply doing what brewers have been doing for centuries:  adapting.

It's really just not that big of a deal. 

Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: denny on June 20, 2010, 06:49:37 PM
It's really just not that big of a deal. 



Bingo!  There is as little difference in using an ale or lager yeast as there is in choosing one strain of ale yeast over another.  As long as the results reflect the style, the ingredients are immaterial.
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: bluesman on June 20, 2010, 08:13:02 PM
I appriciate the input and as I suspected there would be differing opinions, which is great.  I understand that using the wrong/inappropriate ingrediants can cause a beer to be in the wrong style.  I also entered a Munich Helles that was excellent, but used American Hops instead of German hops, still a great beer but as the judge was very clear to point out (22 pts) it was NOT a MUNICH.  I revisited the BJCP styles and there are some catagories clearly named lager or ale, but some are named beer or not at all (porter, stout), so I see the point about a mis-labled product.  I think I should have placed the Helles in catagory 23, but I am still leaning toward the IPA catagory for my IPL.
  Where do we draw the line?  I know, DWHAHB.

I'm not clear on why a line has to be drawn at all. 
If whatever process or ingredients you use achieve a result that reflects a given "style" of beer and has the right flavor and other characteristics of a given "style", then that is the "style" you produced.  The end result is what matters.   
By using ingredients at hand and manipulating them as well as the brewing methods,  you're simply doing what brewers have been doing for centuries:  adapting.

It's really just not that big of a deal. 



Agreed.

There is also "authenticity" which I think is important to some degree.

The Germans can probably make claim to that.
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: beerocd on June 20, 2010, 09:28:45 PM

Bingo!  There is as little difference in using an ale or lager yeast as there is in choosing one strain of ale yeast over another.  As long as the results reflect the style, the ingredients are immaterial.

STYLE is the operative word then. Authenticity is not the objective.
If you go read the BJCP FAQ it's not about ingredients or anything like that, it's just final product.
(I'm not actually talking at Denny - he already knows this)

Maybe someone can start up a historical beer society where only X+Y+Z = "beer#1". Kinda like the civil war reenactment people. Then there can be arguments over whether it's acceptable to use propane and bayou burners since they didn't exist back then.  ::)
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: jakeamo on March 25, 2012, 07:55:06 AM
I found this by searching "IPL yeast". I too have been making them. I have found 2112 makes great IPLs, though weihenstephen not as good. It kind of clashes like a Belgian with too much hops. Does anyone have any good "Hoppy lager" yeast experiances to share? Thanks
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: nateo on March 25, 2012, 01:56:52 PM
I'm not convinced the yeast know if they're supposed to make lagers or ales. S. bayanus and S. cerevisiae had a baby, and we're supposed to act like they're all completely different from each other? If it looks like a duck. . .
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: jiggs26.2 on March 25, 2012, 02:20:47 PM
I bought a few Brew Dog Sunk Punk beers and it tasted like an IPA but was brewed with lager yeast. 
http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article/sunk-punk
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: pinnah on March 26, 2012, 02:58:28 AM
heh.  I split a batch of Pliny the Elder and fermented half with the Swiss Lager Yeast s-189.
While I wish it was all fermented with Cali ale yeast, it is not all bad.

Different, slightly less hop forward, have yet to keg hop, crystal clear yella bitter clarity.
I like it.  But not something I would repeat FWIW.

 8)
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: morticaixavier on March 26, 2012, 06:31:39 AM
My brew club meets at sudwerks in Davis and we had the brewmaster in to speak a few months ago. One of the interesting things he mentioned is that several of the contract brewers of Guiness actually use lager yeast and a cold fermentation to get the right character for that ale. I have to agree that it really doesn't matter what ingredients you use as long as the final product meets the guidelines in flavour and character.
Title: Re: IPA or IPL?
Post by: tomsawyer on March 26, 2012, 12:22:28 PM
I suppose you fermented at 50F?  Did you lager the beer?  I'm guessing the latter wouldn't be necessary or even preferred since you want fresh hop character and a little fruitness is to style.