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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: bierview on February 14, 2016, 06:36:54 PM

Title: water to grain ratio
Post by: bierview on February 14, 2016, 06:36:54 PM
I usually do a 1.25 qt of water per pound of grain.  If there is 2.5 lbs. of flaked maize in the grain bill, do you calculate that weight into the water ratio?  I ask because flaked maize simply melts.

Thanks
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 14, 2016, 06:41:56 PM
I usually do a 1.25 qt of water per pound of grain.  If there is 2.5 lbs. of flaked maize in the grain bill, do you calculate that weight into the water ratio?  I ask because flaked maize simply melts.

Thanks


Personally, I count flaked maize in my calculations. It does mostly dissolve but I'm sure there's a little absorption. Worst case, you have a slightly thinner mash and slightly better efficiency. As a reference I like to mash ~ 1.75 qts/lb for most beers. No worries.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: denny on February 14, 2016, 06:46:31 PM
I usually do a 1.25 qt of water per pound of grain.  If there is 2.5 lbs. of flaked maize in the grain bill, do you calculate that weight into the water ratio?  I ask because flaked maize simply melts.

Thanks

Yes, you do.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: bierview on February 14, 2016, 07:10:42 PM
really..........1.75 qts?
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: fmader on February 14, 2016, 07:18:05 PM
really..........1.75 qts?

Me too... Sometimes with bigger beers I end up with 1.5 qt/lb, but I'm usually in the 1.65-1.75 range.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 14, 2016, 07:20:33 PM
really..........1.75 qts?


Absolutely, occasionally up to 2 qts/lb. There are BIAB guys who mash thinner.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: ultravista on February 14, 2016, 07:30:13 PM
Denny, you use 1.65 right?
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: bierview on February 14, 2016, 07:41:58 PM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.   
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: erockrph on February 14, 2016, 07:58:31 PM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.
FWIW, I use anywhere from 3-3.5 qt/gallon in my beers (BIAB/no-sparge) with no issues to speak of.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 14, 2016, 08:10:47 PM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.
FWIW, I use anywhere from 3-3.5 qt/gallon in my beers (BIAB/no-sparge) with no issues to speak of.
Those are small gallons!  8)
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 15, 2016, 12:50:03 AM
same here...1.80ish qt/lb is my norm and sometimes up to 2qt/lb.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: erockrph on February 15, 2016, 02:01:17 AM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.
FWIW, I use anywhere from 3-3.5 qt/gallon in my beers (BIAB/no-sparge) with no issues to speak of.
Those are small gallons!  8)
Lol qt/lb obviously :)

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Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: kpfoleyjr on February 15, 2016, 02:16:00 PM
Does anyone kick the ratio up a little bit for a lager as opposed to an ale?


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Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 15, 2016, 03:19:01 PM
Does anyone kick the ratio up a little bit for a lager as opposed to an ale?


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I often use 2 qts/lb for lagers, 1.5 or less for ales.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: denny on February 15, 2016, 04:21:18 PM
Denny, you use 1.65 right?

That's the median, but I'll go more or less as needed.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: flbrewer on February 15, 2016, 04:29:59 PM
Not to start a debate, but the last time I mentioned this most people responded that in the final product you can't really tell the difference in the same recipe brewed with varying mash thickness. FWIW, I like to pick a number (normally around 1.5 or so) that gets me fairly even strike and sparge numbers. It's easier to measure 3 gallons of water vs. 3.13 for example.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: gman23 on February 15, 2016, 04:43:23 PM
Seems these aren't getting posted here anymore but had this in my inbox this morning:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/15/the-mash-standard-vs-thin-liquor-to-grist-ratio-exbeeriment-results/

I am normally about a 1.8 qt / lb kind of guy
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: bierview on February 15, 2016, 05:52:45 PM
I gave it a whirl using 1.70 qts. puts per pound.  Perhaps it's my system but I lost both Brewhouse efficiency and mash efficiency.  Typical Brewhouse is 80%.  Typical Mash 94-98% at 1.25/pound.  At 1.70 qts / pound I got Brewhouse of 72% and most disappointing mash at 77%.

BV
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 15, 2016, 06:22:06 PM
I gave it a whirl using 1.70 qts. puts per pound.  Perhaps it's my system but I lost both Brewhouse efficiency and mash efficiency.  Typical Brewhouse is 80%.  Typical Mash 94-98% at 1.25/pound.  At 1.70 qts / pound I got Brewhouse of 72% and most disappointing mash at 77%.

BV

batch, fly, no sparge?  I batch sparge and at those ratios, high 80's to mid 90's on efficiency consistently.

edit: also- you checking PH? thinner mash will result in higher PH - 2qt could be 2-3 tenths higher vs 1.25qt
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 15, 2016, 06:37:40 PM
I got a bump of 3-4 points when I jumped from 1.2 to 1.75ish.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: bierview on February 15, 2016, 06:48:51 PM
Wort,
Batch sparge
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 15, 2016, 06:49:52 PM
Wort,
Batch sparge

ok. did you catch my edit on PH?
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: coolman26 on February 17, 2016, 03:35:10 PM
My MT is usually filled to the max, so I'm usually pretty thick.  I now fly sparge and my numbers keep going up as I get better at this process change.  When I batch sparged, I found my sweet spot around 1.7qt.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 17, 2016, 07:08:28 PM
For most lighter lagers, I press towards 2.0 quarts/lb.  usually just a pinch under, because I have a routine where I collect 15 gallons of RO and typically use about half of it in the mash for a typical 10 gallon lager that uses around 16-18 lbs. of grain...then I adjust with CaCl2 and some lactic based on the actual grains used.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Pricelessbrewing on February 25, 2016, 05:28:42 AM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.

 
94-95% mash efficiency is insanely high. Conversion? Sure. Mash? Unlikely. Perhaps a difference of terminology is at play here?
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 26, 2016, 05:39:03 PM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.

 
94-95% mash efficiency is insanely high. Conversion? Sure. Mash? Unlikely. Perhaps a difference of terminology is at play here?

can you elaborate?
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: denny on February 26, 2016, 06:00:53 PM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.

 
94-95% mash efficiency is insanely high. Conversion? Sure. Mash? Unlikely. Perhaps a difference of terminology is at play here?

can you elaborate?

I think he's saying that efficiency is normal for conversion efficiency, but seems high for mash efficiency (which includes the sparge).  I agree about conversion efficiency.  I have sometimes gotten that high on mash efficiency, but generally am in the low-mid 80s.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 26, 2016, 06:03:10 PM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.

 
94-95% mash efficiency is insanely high. Conversion? Sure. Mash? Unlikely. Perhaps a difference of terminology is at play here?

can you elaborate?

I think he's saying that efficiency is normal for conversion efficiency, but seems high for mash efficiency (which includes the sparge).  I agree about conversion efficiency.  I have sometimes gotten that high on mash efficiency, but generally am in the low-mid 80s.

well here's a good explanation on the terms being used here in this thread:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/11/05/brewhouse-efficiency-vs-mash-efficiency-in-all-grain-beer-brewing/
Title: water to grain ratio
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 26, 2016, 06:09:02 PM
High conversion % of potential yield coupled with lower loss in mash process results in higher mash efficiency. High 80's low 90's is quite normal for me and my process/system.

Brewhouse efficiency is all this plus all the way to the end(bottling /kegging). This is typically much lower the other efficiency noted...high 70,s low 80's for me usually.


edit: today I realized 94.6% mash efficiency for example.

Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Pricelessbrewing on February 28, 2016, 07:46:48 AM
You guys just rocked my world.  For 17 years I have been using 1.25 ratio and have been getting a mash efficiency between 94-98%. Then 5.5 gl of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.  Ferment in a 6 gallon carboy.  Perhaps I'll bump up the mash water and lose some of the sparge water.

 
94-95% mash efficiency is insanely high. Conversion? Sure. Mash? Unlikely. Perhaps a difference of terminology is at play here?

can you elaborate?

Yeah, basically what they said. a 94%+ mash efficiency is EXTREMELY rare in my experience, I've only seen it one other time using a very fine crush, a recirculating mash and a very effective fly sparge system.  How are you calculating this I wonder?

For definitions and such you can check out my blog post here http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/methods/Efficiency/ (http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/methods/Efficiency/). Typical values are conversion: 88-94%, lauter 85-94% depending on sparge method and run off ratios, mash is usually 70-85%, and brewhouse is usually 70-85% for zero apparent kettle losses.

 I go by Braukaisers definitions, so it may just be a difference of terminology. Some older texts for example use mash efficiency interchangably with conversion, and uses kettle efficiency to refer to mash efficiency etc etc.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: JT on February 28, 2016, 10:47:38 AM
I use to do 1.25 on a regular basis when using a cooler.  I probably would have had better luck with a higher ratio, if for no other reason than eliminating more headspace and keeping the temp stable. 
I now do anywhere from 1.75 to 2.25 quarts/pound routinely on my RIMS.  I have yet to have any enzymes stop and ask for directions on where to find the starches. 
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: curtdogg on February 28, 2016, 06:53:22 PM
Whats up home brewers? I had a simolar question and saw this thread. In addition, what is an easy way to calculate mash effinciency?
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: JT on February 28, 2016, 08:36:45 PM
Whats up home brewers? I had a simolar question and saw this thread. In addition, what is an easy way to calculate mash effinciency?
I'm a fan of automation and calculators.
http://www.homebrewing.com/calculators/?page=tools&section=efficiency (http://www.homebrewing.com/calculators/?page=tools&section=efficiency)
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 28, 2016, 08:39:21 PM

Whats up home brewers? I had a simolar question and saw this thread. In addition, what is an easy way to calculate mash effinciency?
Easy? Use one of the calcs or software

Or get a calculator out and pencil and paper and start crunching all the numbers.


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Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: curtdogg on March 01, 2016, 02:46:57 AM
Thanks guys, I guess I should have been more specific.
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on March 01, 2016, 03:02:23 AM
Curtdogg- if you'd like to learn how to figure mash efficiency without software, read this.   

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency


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Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: curtdogg on March 01, 2016, 05:06:47 AM
Thanks, mr hog. That's what I was looking for, thanks for the link.

You da man.

Curtdogg
Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: bierview on March 03, 2016, 01:06:57 PM
I've been away from this site for a while and I see there has been quite a bit of discussion.  Let me be clear, I do not calculate my efficiency for every batch.  I do it every once in a while and usually come up with the same numbers.

This is the formula that I use for Mash Efficiency.  Perhaps my terminology is not correct, perhaps my math is off. This was my understanding.  Please correct me.


grain weight x Lab max (.80) / total mash water + (grain weight x lab max) = X

hydrometer reading of first runnings / X = Mash Efficiency


Formula for Brewhouse Efficiency.  The extract points are from a chart in Ray Daniels book page 31.  Example one pound of pale malt would yield 35-37 points.

Total extract potential in points / gallons collected = X
Hydrometer reading of wort collected / X = Brewhouse efficiency

Ok, I am ready for a critique. 

Title: Re: water to grain ratio
Post by: bierview on March 03, 2016, 02:56:56 PM
JT,
You gave a link to a Brewhouse Efficiency calculator.  Do you have one for Mash Efficiency?

BV