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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: erockrph on February 16, 2016, 03:17:55 AM

Title: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: erockrph on February 16, 2016, 03:17:55 AM
I noticed that Marshall hasn't been cross-posting new xBmt's here as often, so I went over to Brulosophy to see if anything interesting was posted, when this result really caught my eye:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fermentation-temperature-pt-4-lager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

Summary - a split batch of Pils was fermented with 34/70 at either 50F or 70F. The results were that A) there weren't enough correct tasters to achieve a significant result (although it was close) and B) of the 12 tasters who did identify the correct sample, 10 of them preferred the one that was brewed at warm temps.

I've been fermenting 34/70 at ambient temps in my basement in the winter, but I might be tempted to push that into the spring and fall now. I also feel validated in recommending 34/70 at warm temps over an ale yeast to all the brewers who keep asking about brewing a "Mocktoberfest" every September. This certainly removes several barriers for new brewers who want to brew lagers - you can use dry yeast, and you can ferment at ale temps. If someone can produce a good ale, there's no reason they can't produce a good lager.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on February 16, 2016, 03:31:19 AM
I thought this one was very applicable to me. I have only used 34/70 for lagers up to this point and was cosidering doing some of the recipes with us05 in the summer just to do clean ale versions. Now I plan to push 34/70 a little higher with less worry. I do have limited temp control but no chest freezer.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: tommymorris on February 16, 2016, 04:38:43 AM
I also find this experiment very interesting. I plan to try 34/70 at ale temps. 
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: Stevie on February 16, 2016, 05:25:17 AM
Maybe the drama over the "helle-ish" kits pushed him away. God help us if he markets a Pils kit with 34/70 at 70°.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: pete b on February 16, 2016, 11:56:10 AM
Maybe the drama over the "helle-ish" kits pushed him away. God help us if he markets a Pils kit with 34/70 at 70°.
I actually hope he does that and enters that and the helles with kolsch yeast in NHC and wins COTY.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: denny on February 16, 2016, 04:29:27 PM
It's pretty well known that 34/70 (WY2124) works at that kind of temp so there was no surprise for me.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: erockrph on February 16, 2016, 05:10:33 PM
It's pretty well known that 34/70 (WY2124) works at that kind of temp so there was no surprise for me.
Not a huge surprise for me, but 70F is definitely higher than I'd ever tried or recommended with this yeast. And I've always hedged my bets saying it would be passably close at those temps. The results here are more like "undetectable, if not better" rather than "passable" at ale temps.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 16, 2016, 05:19:30 PM
It's pretty well known that 34/70 (WY2124) works at that kind of temp so there was no surprise for me.
Not a huge surprise for me, but 70F is definitely higher than I'd ever tried or recommended with this yeast. And I've always hedged my bets saying it would be passably close at those temps. The results here are more like "undetectable, if not better" rather than "passable" at ale temps.


Yeah, I've had good luck with it staying fairly clean up to 60F back when I used tubs and frozen bottles. Wouldn't have wanted to go much warmer necessarily. Interesting.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: majorvices on February 16, 2016, 05:38:01 PM
I had it get up to 80 once and while I didn't care for the results and dumped the beer I was surprised at how clean it was.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: brewinhard on February 16, 2016, 06:56:37 PM
I had it get up to 80 once and while I didn't care for the results and dumped the beer I was surprised at how clean it was.

Nice.  If it was still pretty clean, then what made you decide to dump it?
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: charles1968 on February 16, 2016, 09:15:21 PM
I love the brulosophy temp experiments, but this one needs repeating. Marshall raised the temperature of the cold-fermented batch to same temp as the other batch when gravity had fallen from 1053 to 1032. Apparent attenuation 40%, actual attenuation 32%. The "cold-fermented" lager was actually mostly fermented warm, so of course it tasted just the same as the other. In the previous two lager temperature experiments the temp was also ramped up prematurely.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on February 16, 2016, 09:54:05 PM
I love the brulosophy temp experiments, but this one needs repeating. Marshall raised the temperature of the cold-fermented batch to same temp as the other batch when gravity had fallen from 1053 to 1032. Apparent attenuation 40%, actual attenuation 32%. The "cold-fermented" lager was actually mostly fermented warm, so of course it tasted just the same as the other. In the previous two lager temperature experiments the temp was also ramped up prematurely.

FWIW, I think he was just using his normal lager fermentation schedule for the 'cold fermented' batch.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: charles1968 on February 16, 2016, 11:10:00 PM
I love the brulosophy temp experiments, but this one needs repeating. Marshall raised the temperature of the cold-fermented batch to same temp as the other batch when gravity had fallen from 1053 to 1032. Apparent attenuation 40%, actual attenuation 32%. The "cold-fermented" lager was actually mostly fermented warm, so of course it tasted just the same as the other. In the previous two lager temperature experiments the temp was also ramped up prematurely.

FWIW, I think he was just using his normal lager fermentation schedule for the 'cold fermented' batch.

Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through. Both lagers were fermented mostly warm. Arguably what the experiment shows isn't that temperature doesn't matter but that the fast fermentation schedule doesn't work.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 16, 2016, 11:18:56 PM
Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through.


Not so. Marshall is a proponent, as are many lager brewers now, of raising temp to ~ 65F after the beer has reached around 50-60% attenuation. By day 5 (for most lagers) the ester profile is set and you can raise temp to speed up fermentation and spur the yeast to get rid of diacetyl quicker. That's what he did here.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/


Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: charles1968 on February 16, 2016, 11:25:27 PM
Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through.


Not so. Marshall is a proponent, as are many lager brewers now, of raising temp to ~ 65F after the beer has reached around 50-60% attenuation. By day 5 (for most lagers) the ester profile is set and you can raise temp to speed up fermentation and spur the yeast to get rid of diacetyl quicker. That's what he did here.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Has it been tested experimentally vs proper cold ferment?
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 16, 2016, 11:30:24 PM
Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through.


Not so. Marshall is a proponent, as are many lager brewers now, of raising temp to ~ 65F after the beer has reached around 50-60% attenuation. By day 5 (for most lagers) the ester profile is set and you can raise temp to speed up fermentation and spur the yeast to get rid of diacetyl quicker. That's what he did here.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Has it been tested experimentally vs proper cold ferment?


I'd wager that the majority of lagers brewers here (some of which have won NHC medals) use this method. It works really well.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: charles1968 on February 16, 2016, 11:51:45 PM
Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through.


Not so. Marshall is a proponent, as are many lager brewers now, of raising temp to ~ 65F after the beer has reached around 50-60% attenuation. By day 5 (for most lagers) the ester profile is set and you can raise temp to speed up fermentation and spur the yeast to get rid of diacetyl quicker. That's what he did here.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Has it been tested experimentally vs proper cold ferment?


I'd wager that the majority of lagers brewers here (some of which have won NHC medals) use this method. It works really well.

Maybe so, but it doesn't follow that lager brewed by Marshall's fast method is indistinguishable from true cold fermented lager. The temperature experiment therefore isn't valid. It simply shows that warm fermented lager tastes the same as lager brewed with the accelerated schedule.

Maybe cold fermented lager tastes the same too, but Marshall hasn't shown that.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: Stevie on February 17, 2016, 12:05:23 AM
I would have sworn he had done the accelerated lager as an experiment, but looks like he hasn't. 
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 17, 2016, 12:05:52 AM
Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through.


Not so. Marshall is a proponent, as are many lager brewers now, of raising temp to ~ 65F after the beer has reached around 50-60% attenuation. By day 5 (for most lagers) the ester profile is set and you can raise temp to speed up fermentation and spur the yeast to get rid of diacetyl quicker. That's what he did here.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Has it been tested experimentally vs proper cold ferment?

Scroll down to the graphs A-F. Read about each. What is proper?
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: charles1968 on February 17, 2016, 12:20:59 AM
Scroll down to the graphs A-F. Read about each. What is proper?
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

Perhaps the nearest one to the fast lager method is F (ferment at 9 Celsius to >80% attenuation then raise to 20Celsius to finish). The fast ferment method ferments at 10-13 Celsius to 50% attenuation and then raises. But in the lastest brulosophy temperature experiment, the temperature is raised to 20 Celsius at 32% attentuation. In no way does that resemble any of the profiles on the braukaiser link.

In any case the best evidence is a triangle taste test isn't it? Otherwise we're back to square one.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 17, 2016, 12:26:04 AM
Scroll down to the graphs A-F. Read about each. What is proper?
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

Perhaps the nearest one to the fast lager method is F (ferment at 9 Celsius to >80% attenuation then raise to 20Celsius to finish). The fast ferment method ferments at 10-13 Celsius to 50% attenuation and then raises. But in the lastest brulosophy temperature experiment, the temperature is raised to 20 Celsius at 32% attentuation. In no way does that resemble any of the profiles on the braukaiser link.

In any case the best evidence is a triangle taste test isn't it? Otherwise we're back to square one.

I didn't realize he was ramping so high and early. I pretty much do F.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 17, 2016, 03:04:50 AM
Now I have done a fair amount of fermentation with 2124. Some people had a chance to taste the results. I fermented from lagers to ales and even a little bit of Belgian. This is a very versatile and clean yeast.

Now can you tell me what is a difference between ale vs lager? Made them all with the same yeast.

Happy brewing.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: denny on February 17, 2016, 05:03:54 PM
I love the brulosophy temp experiments, but this one needs repeating. Marshall raised the temperature of the cold-fermented batch to same temp as the other batch when gravity had fallen from 1053 to 1032. Apparent attenuation 40%, actual attenuation 32%. The "cold-fermented" lager was actually mostly fermented warm, so of course it tasted just the same as the other. In the previous two lager temperature experiments the temp was also ramped up prematurely.

FWIW, I think he was just using his normal lager fermentation schedule for the 'cold fermented' batch.

Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through. Both lagers were fermented mostly warm. Arguably what the experiment shows isn't that temperature doesn't matter but that the fast fermentation schedule doesn't work.
[/quote

It's more typical than you might think, especially among homebrewers.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 17, 2016, 07:26:17 PM
The fermentation schedule Marshall espouses (and I use from time to time, though I have proven myself to be too lazy to adopt full-time, despite many good results, admittedly) may be somewhat yeast dependent for consistently good results.  I am fairly convinced that the use of certain yeasts really require a more traditional approach due to flocculation rate, diacetyl reduction abilities and flavor profile development.  But I fine infrequently and that may be integral to Marshall's approach, also.

Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: majorvices on February 17, 2016, 07:35:02 PM
I had it get up to 80 once and while I didn't care for the results and dumped the beer I was surprised at how clean it was.

Nice.  If it was still pretty clean, then what made you decide to dump it?

Pretty clean does not equal lager clean. And it was a 30 bbl batch that I didn't want in the market place.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: 69franx on February 17, 2016, 08:07:44 PM
Almost 1000 gallons down the drain, I understand protecting the brand, but was it a tough call to not sell in tap room at least? Or was it an easy call? I know which of my homebrews that I would not pass around to friends, but I got through it. Different scale I understand. And I know megas dump more for less issues for the same reason(s). Just curious, no criticism
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: chumley on February 17, 2016, 10:51:07 PM
Am I the only one who ferments lagers at 50°F for a month, then kegs and lagers at 32°F for 6 weeks?  I never let my lagers get above 50°F.

I brewed with WLP833 once in the low 60s and ended up with a fruit bomb.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 17, 2016, 11:14:39 PM
I started the quick lager method when it was posted by Tasty McDole, a guy known to make pretty good beer. I consider my palate pretty good and I can't find any difference from lagers I made the long, time consuming way. Except I'm a better brewer now, so I like them better. To each his own though.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: denny on February 17, 2016, 11:18:08 PM
Am I the only one who ferments lagers at 50°F for a month, then kegs and lagers at 32°F for 6 weeks?  I never let my lagers get above 50°F.

I brewed with WLP833 once in the low 60s and ended up with a fruit bomb.

These days, you may be.  The fast lager schedule is nothing new.  I believe it comes from Narziss?  You should try it.  I can make lagers every bit as good as the "old fashioned" (YOUR) way in a fraction of the time.  As long as you keep the temps low for the first 3-7 days, there are no ill effects I've found to raising it after that.  A week or two of lagering and they're done.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: erockrph on February 18, 2016, 01:06:47 AM
Am I the only one who ferments lagers at 50°F for a month, then kegs and lagers at 32°F for 6 weeks?  I never let my lagers get above 50°F.

I brewed with WLP833 once in the low 60s and ended up with a fruit bomb.

These days, you may be.  The fast lager schedule is nothing new.  I believe it comes from Narziss?  You should try it.  I can make lagers every bit as good as the "old fashioned" (YOUR) way in a fraction of the time.  As long as you keep the temps low for the first 3-7 days, there are no ill effects I've found to raising it after that.  A week or two of lagering and they're done.
In my experience, some of my maltier lagers continue to improve up to maybe 6 weeks or so of cold conditioning. But by that time the keg is half empty because it's good enough after 2 weeks and I can't keep myself from stealing "samples" a pint at a time every few days.

I don't typically fine my beers, so that may have something to do with it.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: majorvices on February 18, 2016, 01:47:08 AM
Almost 1000 gallons down the drain, I understand protecting the brand, but was it a tough call to not sell in tap room at least? Or was it an easy call? I know which of my homebrews that I would not pass around to friends, but I got through it. Different scale I understand. And I know megas dump more for less issues for the same reason(s). Just curious, no criticism

Easy call, but not a call I take lightly. Not something I feel obligated to defend either. It's my business and my reputation. I've been doing this for over 5 years - bad batches of beer bight you in the ass - even if they are somewhat drinkable. You think it is easy to sell 1000 gallons of sub par beer in a tasting room? You realize that tasting rooms are designed to showcase the BEST beer you can brew, right? We use our tasting room to showcase our brand, not to dump crappy beer down throats to make a buck.

FTR I was on the line about the beer. It wasn't terrible but had a "homebrewy" character to it that was not up to my standards (and I mean "homebrewy" not to offend any experienced homebrewers. You guys know what I mean.) It was a lager yeast that fermented at 80. It was surprisingly clean. But far from something i felt comfortable shipping under our brand.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: 69franx on February 18, 2016, 02:03:57 AM
Major, I meant no offense, as referenced at the end of my post. I was just curious, not questioning your call. I feel I would be lucky to get to a point where I have to make that call. Again, no offense was intended and I was not asking you to defend your call or question your brewing skills.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: mpietropaoli on February 18, 2016, 02:08:18 AM
Brulosophy didn't do an exbeeriment on the higher temp ferment, but he did write a pretty detailed post on it.  I started doing this after jamil talked about it (and I believe wrote about it in the Yeast book).  I have loved the results as have a fair number of my fellow judges in comp conditions.  Admittedly, I have only done it with 34/70 and 2206. 
Title: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: tommymorris on February 18, 2016, 02:15:23 AM
One of the things I often feel is missing from these experiments is  answering the question "What did the beer taste like?" We know the beers we're indistinguishable but the article for this experiment doesn't provide tasting notes.  I assume both beers were good and true to style, but, actually that is not stated. So, it's just an assumption on my part.

I realize taste is subjective. But, if both beers are indistinguishable but taste like crap then the results are less meaningful than if both beers fit there target style and taste good.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: charles1968 on February 18, 2016, 01:15:51 PM
In my experience, some of my maltier lagers continue to improve up to maybe 6 weeks or so of cold conditioning. But by that time the keg is half empty because it's good enough after 2 weeks and I can't keep myself from stealing "samples" a pint at a time every few days.

I don't typically fine my beers, so that may have something to do with it.

Ageing is an interesting issue. Hard to test experimentally as you'd have to stagger the brews, which introduces extraneous variables. My beers definitely improve with age but it's at least partly because I bottle condition rather than kegging & force carbonating. It takes at least 3 weeks for a beer to fully attenuate and carbonate after bottle priming. If cold stored the beer continues to clear and lose chill haze over many weeks,

I think the improvement in taste could be a subjective thing. If you drink the same beer over a long period, you develop an acquired taste for it and it seems nicer and nicer. The first time I made Schwarzbier I didn't really care for it. By the time I had only a few bottles left, I loved it - but other people who tried it for the first time weren't that keen.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: charles1968 on February 18, 2016, 01:17:02 PM
Brulosophy didn't do an exbeeriment on the higher temp ferment, but he did write a pretty detailed post on it.  I started doing this after jamil talked about it (and I believe wrote about it in the Yeast book).  I have loved the results as have a fair number of my fellow judges in comp conditions.  Admittedly, I have only done it with 34/70 and 2206.

If fermenting completely warm with 34/70 produces the same beer, as the recent exbeeriment suggests, then the fast method could be even faster with no loss of quality.
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: majorvices on February 18, 2016, 01:21:05 PM
Major, I meant no offense, as referenced at the end of my post. I was just curious, not questioning your call. I feel I would be lucky to get to a point where I have to make that call. Again, no offense was intended and I was not asking you to defend your call or question your brewing skills.

Didn't take it as such, no worries. I'm just sayin', its a different world on the commercial side. And , yeah, had it been a five gallon homebrew batch I probably would have kegged it, drank half and then dumped it for something better! Cheers!
Title: Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
Post by: mpietropaoli on February 19, 2016, 06:28:21 PM
Has anyone ever tried this with S-189?  I am looking to make a hybridish beer, primarily to grow yeast for a pitch on our larger system for a helles then maibock. 

Have heard great things about this yeast, but was planning on fermenting at around 60* (basically a modified CAP grain/hop bill)