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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: unclebrazzie on February 26, 2016, 12:26:40 PM

Title: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: unclebrazzie on February 26, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Peepz,

a friend of mine likes port but not beer and he's set me a challenge: brew him some port beer.

Randy Mosher's Radical Brewing has an example of a port-like beer, which basically comes down to treating your wort as if it were wine must from which you wanted to make port. He also used sherry-flor which makes no sense to me at all, seeing as how the whole aim of his recipe is to oxidise the beer during fermentation, which is pricesely what a proper flor would prevent.

So.
Any port-connoisseurs lurking around?
Anyone with some useful advice on oxidising beer without ending up with liquid cardboard?
Anyone with first-hand experience with Randy's recipe? Or other port-like beers?

I know about cellar-aged beers attaining "port-and-madeira-like" flavours, but that's not what I'm after. I find most "old" beer to taste very similar to one another: like old beer.

Cheerz

Jo
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: majorvices on February 26, 2016, 12:29:31 PM
Port is fortified wine, so a port beer would be like fortified beer I am assuming. Perhaps ice distillation and barrel aging would work for your friend. Maybe aged on some cherries.
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 26, 2016, 12:37:01 PM
Makes me think of the old sam Adams Triple bock.

Brew something super strong and thick. Serve it still.

Maybe add wine or port soaked oak for aging.


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Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: erockrph on February 26, 2016, 02:09:18 PM
I definitely get a lot of port-like character from big, well-aged English barleywines. Another thought is to brew a beer with an addition of must from a port wine kit like this:

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/cru-specialty-premium-dessert-wine-kit-rjs-craft-winemaking.html

Big beers like barleywines tend to develop port/sherry/caramel notes from oxidation, rather than cardboard. But I don't think I'd try to rush that character. One to two years in the bottle will start to get you there.
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: majorvices on February 26, 2016, 02:13:46 PM
Agree ... maybe an eise barley wine!
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: pete b on February 26, 2016, 03:15:39 PM
A couple years ago I made a BSDA that I aged on wood chips soaked in an 18% Elderberry mead (that was Very port-like itself). It was quite port like except for the carbonation. I could see doing that with sherry soaked chips to give you that sherry oxidation vibe in a beer ready in 6-12 months as opposed to a couple years. This may be counter intuitive, but I'm not sure you want to necessarily age this too long as IME really big beers smooth out with time and to be port like some alcohol heat is really nice.
I think I would add some dried fruit to accentuate those flavors.
This could work with any big beer that isn't roasty or smoky IMO including a big bock.
I would be drinking a nice bottle of port ASAP and taking notes if I were in your shoes. Hell, I'm not in your shoes and I'll probably do that...
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: Todd H. on February 26, 2016, 04:44:07 PM
I've had a Russian Imperial Stout that was aged in pinot barrels (Nickelbrook's Winey Bastard); served in a wine glass it was very port-like, but not sweet.
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: reverseapachemaster on February 26, 2016, 05:07:25 PM
I think the idea with the flor is to capture the fruity flavors flor produces in fermentation rather than for its oxygen regulating attributes. I don't think it's a necessary step, unless one is aging the beer for a while, when you could get suitable fruitiness from various English sacc strains. Then the oxygen regulating might be important. Flor doesn't provide an absolute oxygen barrier and will let some oxygen come into the beer.



Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on February 26, 2016, 07:34:18 PM
I've blended wine into beer with great results. Normally I use it for sour beer, but it will work for 'clean' beers as well.

I like the idea of a big, English barleywine with low carbonation (or still). You could blend in some decent commercial port to evoke those familiar flavors while still retaining the beer's character.

English Barleywine is a nice foil for port because it has alcohol intensity that isn't balanced by roast, bitterness, and/or carbonation. Both barleywine and port benefit from a stay in oak and/or graceful aging.

I would try blends in the glass first. You bring a few commercial barleywines, your buddy brings a bottle of port. I've never blended port and beer, but I would start by assuming it won't take much port (<10%). 50/50 may be the answer, or this could be a terrible idea altogether. You never know until you get it in the glass.
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: erockrph on February 26, 2016, 08:04:03 PM
I would be drinking a nice bottle of port ASAP and taking notes if I were in your shoes. Hell, I'm not in your shoes and I'll probably do that...
You might be on to something. I see a side-by-side tasting of some 2-year old homebrewed barleywine and some Sandeman Founders Reserve in my future this weekend.
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: unclebrazzie on February 28, 2016, 10:32:25 AM
Thanks y'all!

So, an English barley wine then. I've been meaning to brew one anyways.

Anyone have a link to a recipe for a particularly relevant one?

Now to find someone who knows his/her ports....my friend likes port but I'm pretty sure he doesn't know about good port yet.
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: unclebrazzie on March 01, 2016, 02:36:05 PM
I think the idea with the flor is to capture the fruity flavors flor produces in fermentation rather than for its oxygen regulating attributes. I don't think it's a necessary step, unless one is aging the beer for a while, when you could get suitable fruitiness from various English sacc strains. Then the oxygen regulating might be important. Flor doesn't provide an absolute oxygen barrier and will let some oxygen come into the beer.

Thanks for that. Anyone have any first hand experience with flor yeast? What precisely will it contribute? "Fruity" flavours, you say...are we talking raisins, figs, dates, that kind of fruit, or something else?
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: erockrph on March 01, 2016, 03:22:32 PM
Thanks y'all!

So, an English barley wine then. I've been meaning to brew one anyways.

Anyone have a link to a recipe for a particularly relevant one?

Now to find someone who knows his/her ports....my friend likes port but I'm pretty sure he doesn't know about good port yet.

For an English Barleywine of this style the recipe is really simple. 100% Maris Otter or other UK Pale Ale malt to an OG in the ballpark of 1.120. You want between 50 and 60 IBU's from something like EKG at 60 minutes, and about 0.25-0.5 oz of EKG per gallon at the end of the boil.

Pitch a big, healthy pitch of a relatively attenuative English yeast. Like lager-sized pitch or bigger. You might want to step it up more than once and increase the gravity with each step. I usually just brew a few beers of increasing gravity, and pitch the entire cake from a 1.060ish beer. Oxygenate well, then repeat in 12-18 hours. An FG around 1.030 will lend you in the realm of a port or sherry after some time to age.
Title: Re: Port - beer hybrid
Post by: unclebrazzie on March 02, 2016, 08:40:37 AM
Thx Eric. That's about what I had in mind.