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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 02:12:15 PM

Title: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 02:12:15 PM
72.5% german pilsner
22.5% flaked rice
2.5% carafoam/dextrine
2.5% melanoidin

Magnum bittering
Sterling finishing

W34/70

1.051
20 IBUs
5.6% ABV

dose keg with 16 oz sake
1-2 oz green tea in the keg

Any comments primarily on the grain bill?
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 02:50:09 PM
If someone has a reference or recipe along the lines of sapporo or something similar that would be great. I haven't been able to find too much recipe information regarding that style of beer.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 01, 2016, 03:43:09 PM
The grain bill looks to fine, I might not use the malanoidin, but it is not too much.

Why the sake and tea? Brewer's artistic license? I don't remember flavors like that, but I haven't had an Asian lager in more than 15 years.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 03:47:32 PM
The grain bill looks to fine, I might not use the malanoidin, but it is not too much.

Why the sake and tea? Brewer's artistic license? I don't remember flavors like that, but I haven't had an Asian lager in more than 15 years.

Just my twist on it. Definitely not anything traditional or common. I have brewed two other versions of this beer. The first one was pretty bad. I used fresh ginger for the first time and overdid it. I used sake yeast for the second attempt so I thought I might give adding sake to the keg a shot so I can control the profile more easily. I am just looking for a very mild flavor impact. When dosing samples of my current pale lager with some sake, 16 oz for 5 gallons seemed to be the sweet spot.

Not sure what I will do about the melanoidin. I wanted another specialty malt in there and have used melanoidin with good success in pale lagers. Maybe I will remove it.

Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Delo on March 01, 2016, 04:34:37 PM
The sushi guy in our town asked me to make him a sapporo/asian style lager a few months ago and I pushed it off until I forgot about it.  There is definitely not a lot out there. I guess not many homebrewers like flavorless beer? I started coming up with something similar. Not sure what the numbers were but off hand it was

75-80% pils
15-20% rice
3 or 4% Munich

around 20 ibus using Saaz and maybe warrior.

What yeast did you prefer in previous batches? Are you looking to make a premade sake bomb?  I'd like to know how it turns out for you since you will probably brew it way before I do. :)
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 04:53:19 PM
The sushi guy in our town asked me to make him a sapporo/asian style lager a few months ago and I pushed it off until I forgot about it.  There is definitely not a lot out there. I guess not many homebrewers like flavorless beer? I started coming up with something similar. Not sure what the numbers were but off hand it was

75-80% pils
15-20% rice
3 or 4% Munich

around 20 ibus using Saaz and maybe warrior.

What yeast did you prefer in previous batches? Are you looking to make a premade sake bomb?  I'd like to know how it turns out for you since you will probably brew it way before I do. :)

First version was basically a blonde ale with US05, ginger, and green tea. The ginger ruined it.

Second version was WLP705 sake and a very small amount of ginger - very interesting and I liked it because I like sake.

This version will be a lager with W34/70. Basically just a rice adjunct lager. Brewing Saturday it looks like.

Not looking to recreate a sake bomb. I dosed 3 oz samples of my pale lager with 1, 2, and 3 mL of sake. I have decided to go with the 2 mL amount which I think will be just detectable enough. If my math is correct it should bump abv by about 0.2%. Sake bomb levels would be at least 7.5 mL to 3 oz I think. 
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: reverseapachemaster on March 01, 2016, 05:02:39 PM
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 05:04:19 PM
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.

That's a good idea. I don't know much at all about rice varieties so I will have to look into it.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Delo on March 01, 2016, 05:56:28 PM
I am a big fan of sake too and I like ginger but it can quickly overpower everything.  Adding a small amount sounds good.  I like the idea of using other rices.  I would imagine basmati might be nice in another adjunct beer.  My wife and I hang out with this guy and I give him my homebrew and he gives us sake his mom makes.   One of the times we tried a red rice sake she made and it was pretty awesome. Also not sure if you know, but some sake rice needs to be polished to avoid off flavors when making sake.  Not sure how it would affect beer.  If you brew Saturday, please update.  And I realized I should have put flavorless in quotes.  I do not come across well in text.  Which is part of why I don’t post often.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 06:00:31 PM
I am a big fan of sake too and I like ginger but it can quickly overpower everything.  Adding a small amount sounds good.  I like the idea of using other rices.  I would imagine basmati might be nice in another adjunct beer.  My wife and I hang out with this guy and I give him my homebrew and he gives us sake his mom makes.   One of the times we tried a red rice sake she made and it was pretty awesome. Also not sure if you know, but some sake rice needs to be polished to avoid off flavors when making sake.  Not sure how it would affect beer.  If you brew Saturday, please update.  And I realized I should have put flavorless in quotes.  I do not come across well in text.  Which is part of why I don’t post often.

I will do my best to update. I was considering jasmine rice but brief research shows that no flavor appears to carry over to the beer. Outside of what the supermarket carries, I don't think I will have time to track down anything 'exotic' so I may just stick with the original plan.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: erockrph on March 01, 2016, 06:02:35 PM
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.
Alas, Japanese sake makers are more protective of their rice than German brewers are with their brewing secrets. I'm pretty sure that unless you're actually making sake commercially in Japan, that you're going to have a hard time getting your hands on their rice. Plus, the polishing process that is used to mill down the rice grains is not something that we have access to.

All that said, sushi rice will probably get you the closest.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 06:05:58 PM
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.
Alas, Japanese sake makers are more protective of their rice than German brewers are with their brewing secrets. I'm pretty sure that unless you're actually making sake commercially in Japan, that you're going to have a hard time getting your hands on their rice. Plus, the polishing process that is used to mill down the rice grains is not something that we have access to.

All that said, sushi rice will probably get you the closest.

Got a bag in the pantry.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: stpug on March 01, 2016, 06:09:18 PM
The green tea, to me, sounds like it would translate into "grassy" notes in the final beer; something I am not a fan of. I would, personally, omit the green tea, but each their own.

I've recently killed an american lager that used ~30% basmati white rice and while the aroma/flavor carried all the way through into the wort, it did not come through in the final beer :(.  Additionally, after looking at the sulfur-compound content of various rices it turns out that basmati (and jasmine too; long-grain in general) have a higher level than shorter-grained rices. I did have an excessive sulfur aroma linger in my basmati beer for a little while. I ended up scrubbing it out by bubbling co2 through the liquid out tube on the keg and it worked very well.  I have since rebrewed the american lager with medium-grain calrose/sushi, but it's still fermenting so no feedback on it just yet.

As far as using precooked REAL rice in brewing, I can say that it has HUGE gravity contribution.  I've learned from these two batches that the yield is basically 100% (potential 1.046) to give good estimates to brewing software.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 06:27:35 PM
The green tea, to me, sounds like it would translate into "grassy" notes in the final beer; something I am not a fan of. I would, personally, omit the green tea, but each their own.

I've recently killed an american lager that used ~30% basmati white rice and while the aroma/flavor carried all the way through into the wort, it did not come through in the final beer :(.  Additionally, after looking at the sulfur-compound content of various rices it turns out that basmati (and jasmine too; long-grain in general) have a higher level than shorter-grained rices. I did have an excessive sulfur aroma linger in my basmati beer for a little while. I ended up scrubbing it out by bubbling co2 through the liquid out tube on the keg and it worked very well.  I have since rebrewed the american lager with medium-grain calrose/sushi, but it's still fermenting so no feedback on it just yet.

As far as using precooked REAL rice in brewing, I can say that it has HUGE gravity contribution.  I've learned from these two batches that the yield is basically 100% (potential 1.046) to give good estimates to brewing software.

The information regarding yield is very helpful and something I had not fully considered. Thank you. I am still on the fence about the green tea...
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: stpug on March 01, 2016, 07:30:25 PM
The information regarding yield is very helpful and something I had not fully considered. Thank you.

It took twice, but I've definitely learned how much contribution of sugars you can get from real rice; and it can be pretty cheap depending on rice variety and where you bought it. I've used flaked rice from the LHBS and instant rice from the grocery store a few times.  They are both relatively expensive and don't have near the gravity contribution that regular white rice does.  The process I use for precooking the rice is pretty simple:
I do about the same with yellow polenta. Precook on the stove using excess water for 5 minute; let sit 10; add to mash. It works very well. Corn does not have the high potential/gravity contribution that rice does from my experience (it's a typical 1.036ish contribution).

I have found that cereal mashes don't make much, or any, difference in the brewing process and require more time and energy to accomplish. At least this has been my experiences with these ingredients.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Stevie on March 01, 2016, 08:06:01 PM
^ I got to try this. I've been looking for every possible use for my stick blender.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: stpug on March 01, 2016, 08:16:52 PM
^ I got to try this. I've been looking for every possible use for my stick blender.

I have a stick blender as well, but actually just use a hand mixer (like you might use for mashed potatoes) because it doesn't destroy the rice quite as much.  Once the rice is soft and mushy it doesn't take much to break it down. You could probably use a stiff whisk and do the same.

BUT, if you need an excuse to use the stick blender then go for it, you may need a little more water to keep it fairly liquid for the stick blender. :D
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Stevie on March 01, 2016, 08:19:58 PM
Yeah, I need to use it. The weather has been too nice to make enough soup to satisfy my desire to stick blend. It's such a fun kitchen gadget.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: stpug on March 01, 2016, 08:24:19 PM
Yeah, I need to use it. The weather has been too nice to make enough soup to satisfy my desire to stick blend. It's such a fun kitchen gadget.

It certainly is. I think mine has made more soap than soups though :D
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Stevie on March 01, 2016, 08:29:55 PM
I want to make soap! Being the worry wort I am, I would likely use a separate blender for soap. At least a separate attachment.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 01, 2016, 08:46:49 PM
So I think I will be visiting the tea shop near the completion of fermentation. My plan is to cold steep the tea in the sake for a couple of days and dose the keg with as much as necessary to get the character I want. I am thinking oolong tea instead of green tea. If I sample it and it is undesirable then I don't have to use it...
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 03, 2016, 08:57:39 PM
Just got the grains and changed the recipe slightly.

75.9% Schill pilsner
20.3% flaked rice (decided to go the lazy route)
3.8% carahell

1.049
3.5 SRM

Kind of conflicted on hop amounts. I need keep the IBUs low but want some noticeable hop flavor. It should be very light bodied with light malt flavor so I could probably overpower it easily.

7 g Magnum 60 min
28 g Sterling 5 min
~20 IBU

Already outlined my plan for the sake and tea. I will add by taste to keg. Going for a very subtle character. Thanks for all of the help!
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: reverseapachemaster on March 04, 2016, 03:21:36 PM
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.
Alas, Japanese sake makers are more protective of their rice than German brewers are with their brewing secrets. I'm pretty sure that unless you're actually making sake commercially in Japan, that you're going to have a hard time getting your hands on their rice. Plus, the polishing process that is used to mill down the rice grains is not something that we have access to.

All that said, sushi rice will probably get you the closest.

At least some of the varieties are available through specialty retailers. I found a couple on Amazon but predictably they are incredibly expensive.

Sushi rice would be another good option though. I've had beer with sushi rice and the rice flavor really comes through.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 04, 2016, 03:35:31 PM
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.
Alas, Japanese sake makers are more protective of their rice than German brewers are with their brewing secrets. I'm pretty sure that unless you're actually making sake commercially in Japan, that you're going to have a hard time getting your hands on their rice. Plus, the polishing process that is used to mill down the rice grains is not something that we have access to.

All that said, sushi rice will probably get you the closest.

At least some of the varieties are available through specialty retailers. I found a couple on Amazon but predictably they are incredibly expensive.

Sushi rice would be another good option though. I've had beer with sushi rice and the rice flavor really comes through.

I have a bag of sushi rice at home but decided to pass because I just assumed any difference in flavor would be negligible and I am lazy. If I didn't have everything milled and mixed together, I would probably go that direction...
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 18, 2016, 10:15:27 PM
Update for anyone interested

Beer has reached an FG of 1.009. The hydrometer sample had a fruity lemon hop character from the sterling hops and as expected a very clean malt character.

Today I added 4 oz of green dragon oolong tea to 16 oz sake and placed in the fridge. I plan to keg within the next couple of days and add the the sake/tea infusion at packaging. I will try to remember to update once beer is carbed.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 21, 2016, 09:27:37 PM
Not sure how but this beer works.

It needs additional time in the fridge to clarify and lager but right now I am very pleased with the character and it seems to have turned out better than I could have expected. The sake is just perceptible and adds a very nice complexity. I am not sure if the tea is recognizable however I think it is likely contributing to some bitterness and possibly some flavor. When I tasted the sake-tea infusion before adding to the keg, it was quite strong and the tea was completely overpowering the sake.

Normally when I brew something strange it doesn't turn out too well so I very happy with this pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on April 13, 2016, 12:12:18 AM
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z218/goschman/IMG_2423.jpg) (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/goschman/media/IMG_2423.jpg.html)

Here she is. Very happy about how this turned out. The sake and the tea both come through a lot more than I expected but not too much by any means. The tea adds a nice herbal, fruity character that is accented by the sake which is also contributing to a creamy sort of mouthfeel like what you would expect from flaked oats. I am glad that I chose this particular tea because I could have really messed it up with what I was originally going to choose. Not sure how often I will brew this but I could definitely see doing it from time to time.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 13, 2016, 12:13:56 AM
That's a great looking beer!
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 13, 2016, 01:18:31 AM
Looks good.  I did a rice lager some years back.  No sake or tea, but it was tasty.

Props on the saw.  Is it a sliding compound mitre saw?  That's one of the things I want.  My bro has one.  He'll never lend me anything.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: pete b on April 13, 2016, 11:55:31 AM
This is a cool idea. A very good local brewery, Element, makes what they call a sake IPA. It doesn't have sake in it but it made with rice and has a sake character about it.
I once took a picture of a glass of mead on my table saw. We should start a shop safety picture site or maybe ites like calendars with girls and cars.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on April 13, 2016, 01:17:55 PM
Looks good.  I did a rice lager some years back.  No sake or tea, but it was tasty.

Props on the saw.  Is it a sliding compound mitre saw?  That's one of the things I want.  My bro has one.  He'll never lend me anything.

That saw is just a hinged chop saw. My dad has a sliding one which is why I probably 'inherited' this one...
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on April 13, 2016, 01:19:36 PM
This is a cool idea. A very good local brewery, Element, makes what they call a sake IPA. It doesn't have sake in it but it made with rice and has a sake character about it.
I once took a picture of a glass of mead on my table saw. We should start a shop safety picture site or maybe ites like calendars with girls and cars.

Ha! Yeah for some reason I can never get good pics of my beers. The lighting is always weird. This one showcased the clarity so I went with it.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 13, 2016, 01:44:07 PM
I noticed the Pagosa Springs logo before the saw. Stopped for one at that brewery while driving through CO, and it was hard to keep it at one. Very good beers there.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on April 13, 2016, 01:47:49 PM
I noticed the Pagosa Springs logo before the saw. Stopped for one at that brewery while driving through CO, and it was hard to keep it at one. Very good beers there.

I haven't been there in a couple of years. I would like to revisit their beers but I don't think they distribute outside of SW Colorado.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 13, 2016, 02:25:34 PM
This is a cool idea. A very good local brewery, Element, makes what they call a sake IPA. It doesn't have sake in it but it made with rice and has a sake character about it.
I once took a picture of a glass of mead on my table saw. We should start a shop safety picture site or maybe ites like calendars with girls and cars.

Shop safety.  Beer and saws.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Delo on May 13, 2016, 02:44:55 PM
Wanted to thank goschman and others for the info.  I finally brewed my Sapporo like lager and the info on this post was helpful. I used real sushi rice because we had it on hand. 
Approximate grain bill
58% Pils
39% sushi rice
3% Carahelles
Hallertau hops
The sample tastes great and is pretty clear. Cant wait until its carbed!
(http://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7065/26894056982_5bace117a6_c.jpg)

Thanks again.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 13, 2016, 03:16:07 PM
Really cool! How did you end up using the rice? Cook and then into the mash?

My rice lager keg should just about be kicked. I enjoyed it but ultimately came to the conclusion that the sake-tea character was a bit too much.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: pete b on May 13, 2016, 03:30:40 PM
I like how this has become a rice beer and tools themed thread.
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 13, 2016, 03:40:34 PM
I like how this has become a rice beer and tools themed thread.

Seems like a logical pairing  ;)
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Delo on May 13, 2016, 06:44:45 PM
I like how this has become a rice beer and tools themed thread.
That's funny.  Didnt even realize it. I guess the harbor freight catalog was the closest thing at the time..

Really cool! How did you end up using the rice? Cook and then into the mash?

My rice lager keg should just about be kicked. I enjoyed it but ultimately came to the conclusion that the sake-tea character was a bit too much.
Cooked and added to mash with the cooking water.  I did similar to what stpug had suggested, except I broke up the rice with a immersion blender before i cooked it.  I also wasnt paying attention and some of the rice burned and stuck to the bottom of the pot while I was cooking it.   I probably lost some gravity points on that but at least it didnt have a burnt taste to it.  A sake/tea character still sounds good. Would you make it again with less characters. If I do one again, I'll probably will try a rice like basmati to see if the flavor comes through. 
Title: Re: asian inpsired rice lager
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 13, 2016, 07:23:41 PM
I like how this has become a rice beer and tools themed thread.
That's funny.  Didnt even realize it. I guess the harbor freight catalog was the closest thing at the time..

Really cool! How did you end up using the rice? Cook and then into the mash?

My rice lager keg should just about be kicked. I enjoyed it but ultimately came to the conclusion that the sake-tea character was a bit too much.
Cooked and added to mash with the cooking water.  I did similar to what stpug had suggested, except I broke up the rice with a immersion blender before i cooked it.  I also wasnt paying attention and some of the rice burned and stuck to the bottom of the pot while I was cooking it.   I probably lost some gravity points on that but at least it didnt have a burnt taste to it.  A sake/tea character still sounds good. Would you make it again with less characters. If I do one again, I'll probably will try a rice like basmati to see if the flavor comes through.

I have considered doing it again at some point and cutting down the sake and tea by at least 25%. I used 4 oz of tea in in the French press with a full bottle of sake which yielded 16 oz of the infusion. I probably documented that earlier in this thread...