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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: redzim on March 01, 2016, 07:46:42 PM

Title: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: redzim on March 01, 2016, 07:46:42 PM
Some friends and I are going all-in together with a 50 gal batch of Altbier this weekend. In collecting the ingredients I messed up and got 1 bag of Weyerman Type 2 (dark) instead of Type 1 (light).  For this batch, we'll be using the following recipe (based on Kai's, but with some melanoidin subbed in since we can't decoct this enormous volume):

Munich I - 80 lbs - 82%
CaraMunich I - 10 lbs - 11%
Carafa II  Special - 1 lbs - 1%
Melanoidin - 6 lbs - 6%

I have 50lbs of Munich I (light) on hand so I'm just short 30 lbs. Can I just use the darker Munich in place of that, and just end up with a little darker beer? Or should I split that 30lbs between Vienna and the dark Munich? Or split it Pils and the dark Munich? (I have enough Pils and Vienna on hand) We're not planning to enter this in a comp, and we don't care if we're a little darker than style, but we also don't want it coming out too malty or full like a Dunkel (I love Kai's dunkel recipe, which is 99% dark Munich and 1% Carafa II). 

Any tips?

red
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: morticaixavier on March 01, 2016, 07:50:11 PM
you could use the dark munich in place of the caramunich and/or the melanoiden. The defining flavor characteristic of munich (dark more than light) is melanoiden type flavors. the Dark Munich bumps this up even more than light munich.
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: redzim on March 01, 2016, 07:52:04 PM
good point but I'd still be short 30# of light Munich called for in the recipe...
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: morticaixavier on March 01, 2016, 07:57:13 PM
good point but I'd still be short 30# of light Munich called for in the recipe...

I was more thinking you'd just use 40 lb of the dark munich and drop or reduce the melanoiden and.or caramunich
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: stpug on March 01, 2016, 07:58:54 PM
...we'll be using the following recipe (based on Kai's, but with some melanoidin subbed in since we can't decoct this enormous volume)...

...I love Kai's dunkel recipe, which is 99% dark Munich and 1% Carafa II...

I don't see the problem. You love kai's recipe which is 99% dark munich (weyermann most likely), and you accidentally picked up a bag of weyermann dark munich.  It sounds like a fortunate accident. I would probably use up the entire bag of dark munich and make up the rest with light munich. Keep your recipe the same for the rest.
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: morticaixavier on March 01, 2016, 08:00:12 PM
...we'll be using the following recipe (based on Kai's, but with some melanoidin subbed in since we can't decoct this enormous volume)...

...I love Kai's dunkel recipe, which is 99% dark Munich and 1% Carafa II...

I don't see the problem. You love kai's recipe which is 99% dark munich (weyermann most likely), and you accidentally picked up a bag of weyermann dark munich.  It sounds like a fortunate accident. I would probably use up the entire bag of dark munich and make up the rest with light munich. Keep your recipe the same for the rest.

he's brewing an Alt this time. he was just saying that he liked the Dunkle recipe hence the decision to try the Alt
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 01, 2016, 08:01:57 PM
Hey Red, good to see your post.

I would do some calculations and see how much Pils would cut the Munich II down to Munich I color. It won't be the exactly the same, but that is the expedient thing to do.
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: redzim on March 01, 2016, 08:08:20 PM
good point but I'd still be short 30# of light Munich called for in the recipe...

I was more thinking you'd just use 40 lb of the dark munich and drop or reduce the melanoiden and.or caramunich

OK, I can see your thinking. that might work out.
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: stpug on March 01, 2016, 08:13:50 PM
...we'll be using the following recipe (based on Kai's, but with some melanoidin subbed in since we can't decoct this enormous volume)...

...I love Kai's dunkel recipe, which is 99% dark Munich and 1% Carafa II...

I don't see the problem. You love kai's recipe which is 99% dark munich (weyermann most likely), and you accidentally picked up a bag of weyermann dark munich.  It sounds like a fortunate accident. I would probably use up the entire bag of dark munich and make up the rest with light munich. Keep your recipe the same for the rest.

he's brewing an Alt this time. he was just saying that he liked the Dunkle recipe hence the decision to try the Alt

You're right. I totally missed that part, sorry about that. I can see the dilemma now.
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: redzim on March 01, 2016, 08:16:26 PM
Hey Red, good to see your post.

Hi Jeff - Been brewing steadily, just not a lot of posting - still lurk here every week and continue to learn a lot...  we ought to trade some more beers like we did a few years back...

Quote
I would do some calculations and see how much Pils would cut the Munich II down to Munich I color. It won't be the exactly the same, but that is the expedient thing to do.

I put the original recipe into Brewer's Friend and it gives me 14 SRM for final color. To get the same, with only 50lbs light munich I have to split the remaining 30lbs into 10lbs dark Mun and 20lbs Pils. (with 30lbs dark munich it only goes up to 16 SRM.) so I might try a 15/15 split.  I'm sure it won't be bad beer...
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 01, 2016, 08:22:39 PM
Hey Red, good to see your post.

Hi Jeff - Been brewing steadily, just not a lot of posting - still lurk here every week and continue to learn a lot...  we ought to trade some more beers like we did a few years back...

Quote
I would do some calculations and see how much Pils would cut the Munich II down to Munich I color. It won't be the exactly the same, but that is the expedient thing to do.

I put the original recipe into Brewer's Friend and it gives me 14 SRM for final color. To get the same, with only 50lbs light munich I have to split the remaining 30lbs into 10lbs dark Mun and 20lbs Pils. (with 30lbs dark munich it only goes up to 16 SRM.) so I might try a 15/15 split.  I'm sure it won't be bad beer...
Kai's recipe reminds me of what Schumacher Alt tastes like, lots of Munich. It will be good. I enjoy Schumacher Alt.

I always would hit a few more places then lose track of the day drinking at Uerige, now Munich, and bitter. After 5 or 6 I wouldn't notice the bitterness. BJCP calls Uerige an outlier, I never held that against it.
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: denny on March 01, 2016, 09:58:02 PM
IMO melanoidin has nothing to do with decoction.
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: klickitat jim on March 01, 2016, 10:27:27 PM
IMO melanoidin has nothing to do with decoction.
Tell us again what melanoidins taste like
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: redzim on March 01, 2016, 11:48:03 PM
IMO melanoidin has nothing to do with decoction.

I can't argue with your vast wisdom Denny! But I know from my tastebuds, and having done a lot of decoctions of beers where I want a solid maltiness (alts, bocks, dunkels mostly) that when I do single infusions instead of decoctions (keeping as many other variables the same) I seem to lose something of that, and when I add 3-4%  melanoidin in the recipe, I get that "thing" back.  Is it exactly the same as decoctions? Probably/possibly not, but it works for me.   

Don't want to devolve this thread into a decoction discussion, though. aren't there about 30 of those on the forum already?  ;) ;)
Title: Re: light vs dark Munich malts subsitution
Post by: denny on March 01, 2016, 11:49:56 PM
IMO melanoidin has nothing to do with decoction.

I can't argue with your vast wisdom Denny! But I know from my tastebuds, and having done a lot of decoctions of beers where I want a solid maltiness (alts, bocks, dunkels mostly) that when I do single infusions instead of decoctions (keeping as many other variables the same) I seem to lose something of that, and when I add 3-4%  melanoidin in the recipe, I get that "thing" back.  Is it exactly the same as decoctions? Probably/possibly not, but it works for me.   

Don't want to devolve this thread into a decoction discussion, though. aren't there about 30 of those on the forum already?  ;) ;)

Probably at least that!  And I'm not gonna argue with your taste buds!