Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: klickitat jim on March 03, 2016, 03:21:44 AM

Title: First Pils
Post by: klickitat jim on March 03, 2016, 03:21:44 AM
Im going to take a swing at a pils. Im not really trying too hard to nail the guidelines, not trying to IT the heck out of... it. Moderate bitterness and lots of hop flavor and aroma is what im shooting for.

5%
95% Best Pils
5% CaraPils
Mashed low and long
Will build my water, CaSO4 mostly
German Magnum at 60 for about 25 IBUs
40g Sapfir and 40g Tettnanger 170/30
40g Saphir and 40g Tettnanger dry hop 4 days once I hit TG and no D
Then I'm crashing and gell fining.

Anyone ever wirlpool or dry hop a pils?
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: jmitchell3 on March 03, 2016, 03:37:52 AM
I brewed my first pils today, cloning firestone's pivo pils. Recipe calls for 2oz dry hop with saphir on 5 gals....couldnt get saphir at my lhbs, so got hallertauer blanc instead. So yeah, 2oz hallertauer blanc in 5 gals dry hopped for 5 days.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: euge on March 03, 2016, 04:22:33 AM
I don't see why you couldn't treat an experimental pils with any sort of hop treatment for BJCP specialty beer guidelines. Wide open. if you were considering a submission.

Some of the commercial Czech pils I've had have been remarkably hoppy and aromatic. Great beeers.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: klickitat jim on March 03, 2016, 04:26:37 AM
Next brew day is lagers again. Probably last of the season. One will be my German Exportbier, and I'm just looking for something fun and new to go next to it. I'll just go for it and see what happens
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: erockrph on March 03, 2016, 04:43:32 AM
I brew a dry-hopped Pils pretty often, but it probably ends up closer to an APA than a Pils. I use Motueka and Sterling, two Saaz descendants that have some nice citrus character to them as you push the hopping rates. Makes for a great summer beer.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: klickitat jim on March 03, 2016, 08:19:41 AM
Cool Eric, sounds like I'm tracking right. Thanks
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 03, 2016, 02:16:51 PM
I brew a pale lager that is dry hopped with sterling and crystal with great results for me. My amounts are very modest though....
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 03, 2016, 02:25:08 PM
Anyone ever wirlpool or dry hop a pils?


I've whirlpooled with nice results on German and Bopils. I go fairly short, like 20 mins @ 170F. Comes out nice.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: erockrph on March 03, 2016, 03:03:16 PM
Cool Eric, sounds like I'm tracking right. Thanks
I've tried soft water (Czech Pils-style), and it wasn't what I was looking for. I think you're on the right track with the Gypsum addition. I'm at about 130ppm in my hoppy lagers and that's right where I like it. Again, this ends up closer to an APA in hop character, so YMMV depending on what you're shooting for.

I brew a pale lager that is dry hopped with sterling and crystal with great results for me. My amounts are very modest though....
I got some Crystal for just this purpose. I hear it's similar to Sterling in that it has noble character but can get fruity as you push the hopping rate.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 03, 2016, 03:25:51 PM
Cool Eric, sounds like I'm tracking right. Thanks
I've tried soft water (Czech Pils-style), and it wasn't what I was looking for. I think you're on the right track with the Gypsum addition. I'm at about 130ppm in my hoppy lagers and that's right where I like it. Again, this ends up closer to an APA in hop character, so YMMV depending on what you're shooting for.

I brew a pale lager that is dry hopped with sterling and crystal with great results for me. My amounts are very modest though....
I got some Crystal for just this purpose. I hear it's similar to Sterling in that it has noble character but can get fruity as you push the hopping rate.

Yeah I haven't experimented with upping the rates of either yet but would like to. I use a relatively small amount of sterling/crystal late in the boil and at dry hop. At the amount I use, they come off as noble hops with just a touch of citrus character to me.

Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: denny on March 03, 2016, 03:54:21 PM
Im going to take a swing at a pils. Im not really trying too hard to nail the guidelines, not trying to IT the heck out of... it. Moderate bitterness and lots of hop flavor and aroma is what im shooting for.

5%
95% Best Pils
5% CaraPils
Mashed low and long
Will build my water, CaSO4 mostly
German Magnum at 60 for about 25 IBUs
40g Sapfir and 40g Tettnanger 170/30
40g Saphir and 40g Tettnanger dry hop 4 days once I hit TG and no D
Then I'm crashing and gell fining.

Anyone ever wirlpool or dry hop a pils?

Just so happens I'm brewing a German pils today.  I sometimes use 10% dark Munich for them, but usually it's 100% pils malt.  That's what I'm doing today.  Using the boiled Jever water profile, 90 min. mash at 148.  FWH with Hallertauer Herbrucker, Hallertauer at 60, then more Hallertauer Hers. at flameout.  No whirlpool hops, no dry hop.  Although my flameout addition kinda becomes a whirlpool addition by default.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: neddles on March 03, 2016, 04:25:42 PM
Im going to take a swing at a pils. Im not really trying too hard to nail the guidelines, not trying to IT the heck out of... it. Moderate bitterness and lots of hop flavor and aroma is what im shooting for.

5%
95% Best Pils
5% CaraPils
Mashed low and long
Will build my water, CaSO4 mostly
German Magnum at 60 for about 25 IBUs
40g Sapfir and 40g Tettnanger 170/30
40g Saphir and 40g Tettnanger dry hop 4 days once I hit TG and no D
Then I'm crashing and gell fining.

Anyone ever wirlpool or dry hop a pils?

Just so happens I'm brewing a German pils today.  I sometimes use 10% dark Munich for them, but usually it's 100% pils malt.  That's what I'm doing today.  Using the boiled Jever water profile, 90 min. mash at 148.  FWH with Hallertauer Herbrucker, Hallertauer at 60, then more Hallertauer Hers. at flameout.  No whirlpool hops, no dry hop.  Although my flameout addition kinda becomes a whirlpool addition by default.
SMaSH brewing!
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: Pinski on March 03, 2016, 05:33:58 PM
Anyone ever wirlpool or dry hop a pils?


I've whirlpooled with nice results on German and Bopils. I go fairly short, like 20 mins @ 170F. Comes out nice.

I like this approach as well, don't have much if any interest in dry hopping a pils. To me, noble hop pleasure is not about intensity.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 03, 2016, 05:53:03 PM
Anyone ever wirlpool or dry hop a pils?


I've whirlpooled with nice results on German and Bopils. I go fairly short, like 20 mins @ 170F. Comes out nice.

I like this approach as well, don't have much if any interest in dry hopping a pils. To me, noble hop pleasure is not about intensity.


Agreed.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: Steve Ruch on March 03, 2016, 11:33:16 PM
I brewed a pilsner last month and split the batch in half after chilling the wort. One half got fermented with M-44 @ 68 and the other got S-34/70 @ 52f.
I dry hopped the ale version with glacier and the lager with saaz and wakatu.
The ale version was bottled last week and the lager part was racked into another carboy and placed in the lager chest.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: klickitat jim on March 04, 2016, 12:16:03 AM
Ok I'll skip the dry hop. I never do it anyway. Was just a thought
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 04, 2016, 12:39:39 AM
The Germans like to boil hops for at least 10 minutes. The Americans doing Pilsners, not so much.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: euge on March 04, 2016, 02:40:32 AM
As time has passed my preference has turned to restraint in the use of hops. And it's good to know about the 10 minute minimum.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 04, 2016, 03:03:39 AM
The Germans like to boil hops for at least 10 minutes. The Americans doing Pilsners, not so much.


Jeff, given the 10 minute practice, do German brewers specifically target whirlpool hop character in pils (or other hoppy beers), or does it just sometimes come as a result of the long cooling process ? I wouldn't dry hop a German beer (though I have done that for American 'hoppy lager'/IPL beers). Just curious if you feel the best German hop flavor comes from the boil or that combined with the whirlpool process.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 04, 2016, 03:59:43 AM
I haven't been in Pilsner Breweries. It is said traditional ones have flotation tanks. The chilled wort is pumped into tose. The break settles, and clear wort is pumped th Ed next day to fermenters and pitched. The wort is cold the whole time.

At as brewery that made Dunkel, they whirlpooled and chilled.The plate chiller was huge, but the batch size was 51 barrels. Chilling was just under an hour. But there were not a ton of hops in the Dunkel.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: euge on March 10, 2016, 08:03:37 PM
So I was looking at the basic Br'un water spreadsheet to build up a pils from RO and I noticed the mash pH is estimated at 5.7 with 100% pils and it's the same with your lineup JIm.

I added acid malt to get it down to 5.4, but am wondering since 5.7 is in the accepted range (theoretically) does it actually match up with any Pilsener flavor profile?

I think mashing at a pH of 5.7 is high for such a pale beer. Thoughts on this?

Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 08:17:38 PM
I personally wouldn't mash any beer @ 5.7 .  I mash porter and stout @ 5.6 and everything else below. I just mashed a helles at 5.45. Did one of the profiles show that as target pH, or did you just enter in your grist and it showed a pH of 5.7 before you added acid or salts?
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: euge on March 10, 2016, 08:24:01 PM
Ha it's an un-upgraded version of Bru'n...

That's gonna change. ;)

So room-temp 5.7 mash pH was a calculated straight estimate of a 100% pils malt bill and 1.6 qt/# mash. Pre and post salt addition- it doesn't change the pH.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: klickitat jim on March 10, 2016, 08:28:33 PM
I've been mashing my pale German lagers at 5.5 ph.  I use 10% phosphoric on them. I suppose the hoppier ones would be ok with lactic, but if it doesn't matter and you have both...

I use Brewers Friend so I don't know martins profiles. My water for this beer will be 4.5 gallons DI in the mash with 4g CaSo4, 1g MgSo4, .25g NaCl, and 18ml 10% phosphoric.  5.5 gallons sparge with same salts but no acid needed.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 08:29:37 PM
I don't get why the salt additions don't change the pH. Regardless, I always adjust the pH after entering the grist. That number is an 'if left untreated' pH estimate. Hard to go wrong with 5.25-5.4 for pils IMO.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: euge on March 10, 2016, 08:35:26 PM
I'm aiming for a pH of 5.4! And a sulfate-chloride ratio of 1.2 for a balanced beer.

Rather use phosphoric acid than lactic-based acid malt. LHBS didn't have any a couple days ago. Northern Brewer does!
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on March 10, 2016, 10:39:40 PM
I don't get why the salt additions don't change the pH. Regardless, I always adjust the pH after entering the grist. That number is an 'if left untreated' pH estimate. Hard to go wrong with 5.25-5.4 for pils IMO.

+1 that's not right. salts like gypsum and cacl will change the PH unless negligible additions.

anyway-single infusion just pick a PH...5.2-5.6 and call it a day.  Me, I'd shoot for the 5.4ish optimal for beta rest and the single infusion temp range of 148F.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: euge on March 10, 2016, 11:01:15 PM
They are/were very small additions. I upped them significantly and brought calcium up to 50ppm which dropped the mash pH to 5.6...

I've never used bru'n water before. I'm assuming my RO is very similar to the calculator's- so I just use those stats.

Which is almost identical to the pilsen profile. A tiny amount of gypsum and calcium chloride brings the SO/Cl ration in line. The cation/anion are balanced. RA and hardness are spot on, The only thing is that 5.7 pH!

And adding phosphoric acid swings the RA way negative and screws up the cation/anion balance. I'm also assuming this is bad.

Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 11:10:05 PM
Be sure (if you haven't) to set the dilution tab to RO and whatever % of RO you're using. I use all RO so I set the dilution tab to RO 100%.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on March 10, 2016, 11:18:11 PM
They are/were very small additions. I upped them significantly and brought calcium up to 50ppm which dropped the mash pH to 5.6...

I've never used bru'n water before. I'm assuming my RO is very similar to the calculator's- so I just use those stats.

Which is almost identical to the pilsen profile. A tiny amount of gypsum and calcium chloride brings the SO/Cl ration in line. The cation/anion are balanced. RA and hardness are spot on, The only thing is that 5.7 pH!

And adding phosphoric acid swings the RA way negative and screws up the cation/anion balance. I'm also assuming this is bad.

there it is..you are using pilsen water profile?   use yellow balanced and add your salts to match that profile. your PH should drop.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: euge on March 10, 2016, 11:37:58 PM
Be sure (if you haven't) to set the dilution tab to RO and whatever % of RO you're using. I use all RO so I set the dilution tab to RO 100%.

I set my initial profile up with the RO profile and then set the dilution to zero when I redid everything. After my last post I went to Braukaiser and looked at some water profiles. I added 0.3 # acidulated malt which brought everything in line without the need for an acid addition.

I then changed it to "yellow balanced" and got something very much like what I have already except it has 7 ppm magnesium. Hmmm. Pilsen or yellow balanced?

Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 11:40:21 PM
I really like yellow balanced (or a variation of) for most pale lagers. Just preference.
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on March 10, 2016, 11:52:12 PM
"Pilsen" is water profile you might find In that region; it's not necessarily what a brewer ends up using to brew with. It's like using whatever you well water has in it for minerals, and then adjusting to something like yellow balanced.  IMO you will be happy with the yellow balanced for standard pils, and more hoppy like northern German pils you'd up the sulfate to 90-100ppm as an example.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: First Pils
Post by: euge on March 10, 2016, 11:59:49 PM
Yellow balanced it is! I'll try the pilsen some other time.

I rebuilding my stocks of beer and want more predictable results.

Thanks guys!