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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 04:57:14 am

Title: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 04:57:14 am
In my quest for the ultimate patersbier, a Rochefort 4 clone:

Recipe: Rochefort 4
Brewer: Homo Eccentricus
Style: Belgian Specialty Ale

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.44 l
Post Boil Volume: 11.44 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 9.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 33.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 16.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 74.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
2.00 kg               Pilsen (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC)             Grain         1        85.0 %       
0.20 kg               Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC)              Grain         2        8.5 %         
0.12 kg               Wheat, Flaked (3.2 EBC)                  Grain         3        5.1 %         
8.00 g                Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - First Wort 9 Hop           4        12.3 IBUs     
0.03 kg               Candi Sugar, Dark (1900.0 EBC)           Sugar         5        1.4 %         
8.00 g                Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] - Boil  Hop           6        3.9 IBUs     
3.00 g                Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)           Spice         7        -             
1.0 pkg               Belgian Abbey II (Wyeast Labs #1762) [12 Yeast         8        -             


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 2.35 kg
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Saccharification  Add 6.05 l of water at 70.6 C           64.4 C        75 min       
Mash Out          Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min              75.6 C        10 min       


Should I simply use the Rochefort boiled water profile? I know Rochefort has their own well.
Rochefort (boiled)   Ca 28   Mg 10   Na 6   SO4 32   Cl 17   BC 80
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 03, 2016, 05:55:50 am
First off, the recipe looks great. I may take a swing at that sometime. As for the water, I like more Ca content in my ales. I'd use a balanced profile, not targeting high levels of sulfate or chloride and bump up until I hit 50ppm Ca. Sounds great.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 06:13:13 am
I read somewhere, I think in BLAM, that the head brewer says that Rochefort water is more mineral than, say Chimay. It seems to be part of the flavor palette.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 03, 2016, 06:28:51 am
I read somewhere, I think in BLAM, that the head brewer says that Rochefort water is more mineral than, say Chimay. It seems to be part of the flavor palette.

Actually, I remember the same from BLAM.  You could always bump the minerals up a tad higher, say 80ppm sulfate, 70ppm chloride. That would carry your Ca content up to the 50+ range. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 06:31:43 am
Of course it depends on what the good monks do with the water. Unboiled it has 82 ppm Ca and 245 ppm BC.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 06:36:49 am
"they also leave the water relatively hard, and higher in calcium and bicarbonate than at Chimay."

Chimay boiled has 29 ppm Ca and 80 ppm BC, so you might be right to bump it up.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 07:23:04 am
What is Rochefort 4? Is this an original of yours based on the concept of a hypothetical Rochefort table beer?


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 07:31:35 am
Referencing BLAM:

"...pH drops to 5.8-5.9 in the mash, with mineral acid used to drop the pH to 5.2 in the kettle."

That suggests that the water may stay relatively untouched, no?


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 07:36:24 am
Referencing BLAM:

"...pH drops to 5.8-5.9 in the mash, with mineral acid used to drop the pH to 5.2 in the kettle."

That suggests that the water may stay relatively untouched, no?


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I have to admit that I did not quite get that part. Does it mean there's really high levels of bicarbonates in the water?
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 07:37:15 am
What is Rochefort 4? Is this an original of yours based on the concept of a hypothetical Rochefort table beer?


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OK, I admit, this is a teaser for my upcoming book "Cloning Beers From Parallel Universes".
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 07:38:19 am
That's kind of how I read it. They aren't using very dark malts in high quantities and their color is coming from dark sugars and the boil so it stands to reason that if their mash pH is high it is likely due to minimal treatment of the source water.




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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 07:41:11 am
I like the idea of a darker table beer.

I've been contemplating a recipe for a Belgian Mild, which would essentially be a lower gravity Dubbel with less sugar/syrup and more specialty malts.


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 07:44:52 am
This is an extrapolation from the color of Rochefort 10->8->6->4  : 90->63->40->33 (EBC)
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 03, 2016, 08:50:24 am
That looks a lot like a variation of Herman Holtrop's recipe.  As far as "clone" recipes go, it's probably the best one out there.  I make it as a 6 or 8 often.  Since all the color comes from the syrup, I trat the water for the grains only.  That way you don't need to worry about pH rising from dark malts.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 09:03:30 am
That looks a lot like a variation of Herman Holtrop's recipe.

Aha, indeed! So now we also know where Stan Hieronymus gets his inspiration from!
Title: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 09:06:49 am
Well Stan got his info from Rochefort!


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 03, 2016, 09:17:54 am
Well Stan got his info from Rochefort!


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And so did Herman.  That recipe has been around for over 15 years.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 09:19:27 am

Well Stan got his info from Rochefort!


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And so did Herman.  That recipe has been around for over 15 years.
i've been meaning to brew Herman's recipe


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 03, 2016, 09:19:32 am
And so did Herman.  That recipe has been around for over 15 years.


I need to brew that soon. Been too long !
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 09:29:38 am
Not sure though whether the Carafa special  and special B in Herman's recipe are in the original Rochefort recipe.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 03, 2016, 09:37:55 am
Not sure though whether the Carafa special  and special B in Herman's recipe are in the original Rochefort recipe.


Hard to say, but BLAM does mention that Rochefort uses crystal malts (doesn't specify which). Regardless, the recipe is a pretty darn good approximation.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 09:44:16 am
I based myself upon Stan's presentation at the AHA conference: “Two of the pale malts, two of the sugars, two hop varieties, two yeast strains . . . two of this and two of that . . . we like to keep it simple.”  - Brother Antoine
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 09:53:34 am

I think the interesting thing right under the surface in Hermans recipe is tailoring the ingredients to match flavor and not necessarily "ape-ing" the brewery's process.

His approach suggests that you can keep your personal process the same and alter the recipe that create the desired end product rather than just duplicating everything from the brewery and ending up with something that doesn't taste as authentic.





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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: 69franx on March 03, 2016, 10:08:35 am
Quick ingredient question here. Is there a good sub here in the states for the candi syrup. I dont see anything listed quite that dark. I have no experience with any of the sugars, just looking at what beersmith has listed. Plugging all this into beersmith, I get 11.5 SRM compared to the listed roughly 17 SRM(after converting EBC.) Looks like another fun recipe I would try out in the future, so just wondering...
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 10:12:39 am
I think it was a typo.


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 03, 2016, 10:22:18 am
Quick ingredient question here. Is there a good sub here in the states for the candi syrup. I dont see anything listed quite that dark. I have no experience with any of the sugars, just looking at what beersmith has listed. Plugging all this into beersmith, I get 11.5 SRM compared to the listed roughly 17 SRM(after converting EBC.) Looks like another fun recipe I would try out in the future, so just wondering...

I use D120 from candisyrup.com
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: 69franx on March 03, 2016, 10:23:14 am
Gotcha, not sure when I will get around to this, but that did throw me off
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 03, 2016, 10:24:56 am
Here is Herman's original post about the recipe and how it came to be...

From: "Herman Holtrop" <h.e.holtrop at zonnet.nl>
Subject: Rochefort 8 Cloning contest

Rochefort 8 Cloning contest

Hi you all! Last year Jan Willem van Groenigen posted a message asking for
directions for cloning Rochefort 8 (HBD #3910). Since this didn't result
in a satisfactory answer, the users of the Dutch Hobbybrewing forum
(http://www.hobbybrouwen.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl) put together a joint
effort for designing a clone recipe for Rochefort 8. A lot of research went
into it from all participating brewers and some of our own experiences were
taken into account. After putting together the recipe, we organized a
contest as to who could brew up the best clone. As the proud winner of this
contest I would like to share with you the results of this competition.
We noticed that there is still not much known about Rochefort, so we hope
you'll find this interesting.

The objective was for all brewers to brew the same recipe in the same
manner. However, all brewers had slightly different ingredients from
different suppliers. After brewing and some 4 months of maturation, the
beers were judged together with the original Rochefort. This event took
place on February 15 at De Maasland brewery in Oss, the Netherlands. A total
of 15 people from all over the Netherlands and Belgium came together to meet
for the first time in real, a very cool experience on its own.

On tasting day 10 beers were brought in, plus the original, totalling 11.
The judging panel consisted of all brewers, one of whom was a
certified beer judge (BKMG, which is comparable to BJCP) completed with one
neutral certified judge. In between the tasting, we received a tour of the
brewery from brewmaster Frans. he also took care of serving us with all
kinds of good food, very necessary when tasting such strong beers.

With the exception of one soured sample (which nevertheless was quite
tasty), all beers came quite close to the original, although all were a bit
too dark. When we started this whole cloning contest, Rochefort beers with
the original Special B were still available at shops. However, the beer we
used at the tasting was of more recent date, using the new Special B from
maltster Dingemans. Some clones were made with the original DWC Special "B"
(including the winner), others with the replacing Dingemans version.There is
a surely a different taste to it now.

The winning beer was made exactly following the recipe below. Fermentation
temperature was 21-23C. No water treatment, my water is 10D. For more info
about water treatment regarding the Rochefort area, i refer to HBD #4116 &
HBD #4115 (article by Jacques Bertens & Jan Willem van Groenigen).

For 10 liters, 1.080 OG, 32 IBU, 70 EBC :

Maltbill
% Amount Malt
70.4 2375 grams Pilsnermalt (Belgian)
11.1 375 grams Caramunich 120 EBC
1.5 50 grams Carafa special dehusked 800 EBC
3.7 125 grams Special "B"
3.7 125 grams Flaked Corn
9.6 325 grams Dark Candysugar

Hops (flowers) & Spices
Styrian Goldings 23 grams 4.2% 75 minutes
Hallertau Hersbrucker 10 grams 3.5% 30 minutes
Hallertau Hersbrucker 5 grams 3.5% 5 minutes
Coreanderseed crushed 5 grams 5 minutes

Yeast: Wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey II or recultered from a bottle of
Rochefort. The winning recipe used the Wyeast.

Mashing: 3 liters per kg malt. Flaked corn boiled separately before adding
to the mash.

60-62C 30 minutes
68C 60 minutes
75C 5 minutes

Sparging with water at 78C

A promash recipe file is available at the following location:
http://www.geocities.com/iluvhops/brouwsel/rochefort8.html ,
which will make life easier for all you non-metric brewers. At this
location you will also find some extra info (references etc.) together with
a copy of this post.

Below, I listed some findings based upon variations in the recipes. Of
course, this wasn't set up in a randomized, replicated fashion, but I think
it might be of interest nonetheless:

1) The use of chocolate malt instead of the dehusked Carafa resulted in
a bit of a licorice taste or even a bit of a burned taste.
2) If you can't get Carafa Dehusked, look for a debittered/dehusked
dark chocolate/Black malt. It can also be had from Weyermann
3) The use of the original yeast instead of the Wyeast didn't change
much in the tasting profile. Which makes sense, because they're said to
be similar.
4) The second placed beer (Theo Verschoor) was fermented at 28C,
which resulted in a very strong banana and fruit aroma!
5) The third placed beer (Edwin Hoogedoorn) tasted very close to the second,
but
had a less pronounced aroma, because of a lower temperature fermentation.
6) To get a color more resembling the original, it is suggested to
slightly bring down the amount of Carafa.
7) Some beers had problems during bottle-conditioning. When bottling
make sure to do it in time or to add a healthy yeast.
8) Samples with added (non-Rochefort) yeast for conditioning did not
seem to result in a different taste.

All in all a very cool experience, which is to be repeated by a joint Orval
cloning contest. A recipe of which has already been agreed upon. :-)

Take care,
Herman Holtrop
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: 69franx on March 03, 2016, 10:31:05 am
Thanks Denny, I have seen you post a link to the recipe before, and copied it into beersmith, but I either did not read, or dont remember the back story. Very cool indeed
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 12:08:07 pm
I think it was a typo.


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Nope. 1900 ebc.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: 69franx on March 03, 2016, 12:11:48 pm
That is dark, dark, dark
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 12:22:33 pm
Really dark. Holy cow.


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: 69franx on March 03, 2016, 12:25:31 pm
With no experience with candi syrups, would a larger sub(>1.4%) with something like the mentioned D180 get you there, or just too much of a difference? Derek I know you have experience with the candi syrups. Just future musings...
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 12:34:54 pm
"It's so black, it's like, how much more black could it be. The answer is none. None more black." (beersk where you at!)

Using our favorite Belgian posters sugar:

(965 (SRM) * .067 (lbs))/3 (gal) = ~21 MCU contribution

(21 (MCU) * 3 (gal))/180 (SRM) = 0.35 (lbs) of D180



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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 03, 2016, 01:00:00 pm
That has GOT to be wrong.  The finished beer is only 33 EBC.  1900 EBC for the syrup comes out to 965 SRM!  I've never seen or heard of anything that dark.  Where did that come from?
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 03, 2016, 01:08:50 pm
That has GOT to be wrong.  The finished beer is only 33 EBC.  1900 EBC for the syrup comes out to 965 SRM!  I've never seen or heard of anything that dark.  Where did that come from?



Yeah, no way.  33EBC is like 16.76 SRM.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: 69franx on March 03, 2016, 01:09:09 pm
If I follow his grist %s, and change the SRM to 965 for the D180 as an example, I get a projected SRM of 18.3, just a bit darker than his projection of 16.9. Still no idea where to get something @ 1900EBC here in the states, but for a 6G batch batch, its only 2.8oz so I guess it cant offer much more than color at that rate?
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: erockrph on March 03, 2016, 01:11:21 pm
That has GOT to be wrong.  The finished beer is only 33 EBC.  1900 EBC for the syrup comes out to 965 SRM!  I've never seen or heard of anything that dark.  Where did that come from?
The recipe calls for the sugar, not the syrup, as I'm reading it. It makes a lot more sense that way.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: 69franx on March 03, 2016, 01:12:44 pm
Yes, I see that it does. Again, my lack of experience with candi sugar of any type has thrown me off track. Good catch
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 03, 2016, 01:13:58 pm

That has GOT to be wrong.  The finished beer is only 33 EBC.  1900 EBC for the syrup comes out to 965 SRM!  I've never seen or heard of anything that dark.  Where did that come from?
The recipe calls for the sugar, not the syrup, as I'm reading it. It makes a lot more sense that way.
even so the highest SRM value that I have ever seen for sugar is 275 for the dark and even that's acknowledged to not likely be representative of the actual value


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: erockrph on March 03, 2016, 01:26:15 pm

That has GOT to be wrong.  The finished beer is only 33 EBC.  1900 EBC for the syrup comes out to 965 SRM!  I've never seen or heard of anything that dark.  Where did that come from?
The recipe calls for the sugar, not the syrup, as I'm reading it. It makes a lot more sense that way.
even so the highest SRM value that I have ever seen for sugar is 275 for the dark and even that's acknowledged to not likely be representative of the actual value
Interesting. I'm not super familiar with the sugar, so I just assumed that it was a lot darker by weight than the syrup. I have brewers caramel that is 33,000 EBC, so it is certainly possible to have something in that range. But I have no idea what is commercially available to a home brewer, either in the US or Europe.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 03, 2016, 01:31:48 pm
I'm gonna check my old brewing notes later. The first time I made the recipe I made it as is, using the sugar, because syrups weren't readily available here yet. Then I switched over to working D180 into the recipe. I don't remember the dark sugar being any darker looking than a deep brown. Hopefully I wrote down a color rating for it. I'll post later.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 02:15:20 pm
To the unbelievers ;)

https://homebrewshop.be/en/syrups/649-candi-syrup-dark-1900-ebc-250-ml.html (https://homebrewshop.be/en/syrups/649-candi-syrup-dark-1900-ebc-250-ml.html)
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 02:18:33 pm
We also have 6-700 EBC candi sugar: https://www.brouwland.com/en/our-products/brewing/sugars/candy-sugar/d/candi-sugar-brown-crushed-500-gr
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 03, 2016, 02:21:01 pm
I picked the darkest syrup I could find because the "Rochefort 4" is a relatively low alcohol beer, so I wanted to use as little sugar as possible without losing the color and the figs/raisins flavor.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: Hand of Dom on March 03, 2016, 03:41:48 pm
I picked the darkest syrup I could find because the "Rochefort 4" is a relatively low alcohol beer, so I wanted to use as little sugar as possible without losing the color and the figs/raisins flavor.

Out of interest, where can you buy syrup in Belgium?  Is it something you can get in the supermarket, or will I need to find a home brew shop?  I try to get over to Belgium at least once a year, so it makes sense to pick some up next time I'm over.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: erockrph on March 03, 2016, 04:58:02 pm
I picked the darkest syrup I could find because the "Rochefort 4" is a relatively low alcohol beer, so I wanted to use as little sugar as possible without losing the color and the figs/raisins flavor.
Just be aware that intensity of color might not translate to intensity of flavor. You may get the color you want from a small addition of the dark Candi syrup, but you may not get the same flavor impact as an equivalent addition of a lighter syrup that would net the same final color.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 04, 2016, 03:29:19 am
Someone in the Netherlands has tried 5% of the 1900 EBC to brew a dubbel, and his experience was: too much burned raisins and too full to be like the Westmalle Dubbel, but nice nevertheless.

To get to 33 EBC and 1.055 OG the following candi syrup combinations of the 1900 EBC and 180 EBC are possible for me:

[EDIT] confused SRM and EBC. Stupid SRM!
0% 1900 and 15% 180 EBC
0.4% 1900 and  11% 180 EBC
1% 1900 and 5.5% 180 EBC
1.4% 1900 and 0% 180 EBC


0% 1900 and 7.7% 355 EBC
0.4% 1900 and  5.2% 355 EBC
1% 1900 and 3% 355 EBC
1.4% 1900 and 0% 355 EBC
[/EDIT]

Since Brother Antoine wants 2 of everything I'll go for either the second or the third combination.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 04, 2016, 03:38:17 am
When you say 180 are you talking about the CSI D180?

If so that is in SRM not EBC. Just want to make sure you don't get the wrong amount in there!


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 04, 2016, 04:26:09 am
When you say 180 are you talking about the CSI D180?

If so that is in SRM not EBC. Just want to make sure you don't get the wrong amount in there!


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Yes, you are right, thanks for the catch! Modified the post.
Title: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 04, 2016, 04:59:05 am
What is Rochefort 4? Is this an original of yours based on the concept of a hypothetical Rochefort table beer?


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OK, I admit, this is a teaser for my upcoming book "Cloning Beers From Parallel Universes".

I like your idea and recipe. Of course this means I now have to draw up a recipe for "Westmalle" Dark Strong Ale.


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 04, 2016, 05:26:45 am
I like your idea and recipe. Of course this means I now have to draw up a recipe for "Westmalle" Dark Strong Ale.

You mean a Westmalle Enkel Dubbel,  like this one? https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26003.msg337409#msg337409
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 04, 2016, 05:31:57 am
Nope. A Westmalle inspired Dark Strong Ale. Darker than the Dubbel and stronger than the Tripel.


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 04, 2016, 05:43:51 am
Nope. A Westmalle inspired Dark Strong Ale. Darker than the Dubbel and stronger than the Tripel.


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Ah, some kind of Westmalle quadrupel?
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 04, 2016, 05:55:17 am
Yup. Our (American) invention of the term Belgian Dark Strong Ale must drive you nuts!




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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 04, 2016, 06:00:06 am
Why would that be your invention? You mean calling it like that?
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 04, 2016, 06:04:11 am

Why would that be your invention? You mean calling it like that?

Yes. The judging terminology for a beer that really isn't termed that way in Belgium.


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 04, 2016, 02:12:42 pm
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160304/119f56687d79c4aeb3b592f4aec02ea6.jpg)

For science!
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 04, 2016, 02:14:04 pm
My kind of 'science'. I love those. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 04, 2016, 03:20:26 pm
Out of interest, where can you buy syrup in Belgium?  Is it something you can get in the supermarket, or will I need to find a home brew shop?  I try to get over to Belgium at least once a year, so it makes sense to pick some up next time I'm over.

Order it at a homebrew shop online:
- https://www.brouwland.com/en/
- https://homebrewshop.be/en/
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: BrewBama on March 05, 2016, 06:29:54 am
This topic is very interesting to me. I recently enjoyed a Rochefort 6 and was intrigued by the black flecks in the bottom of the bottle. I've had many bottle conditioned beers but I' d never seen flecks like that before.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 05, 2016, 06:51:33 am
Rochefort has a lot of floaters. 


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 05, 2016, 07:40:30 am
Yeah, I get Rochefort sometimes that has a fairly uniform sediment in the bottom with no floaters, other times even chilled and undisturbed it has lots of floaters. I read where Gordon said that a beer with lots of floaters in suspension is often past its prime. Although it's pretty hard to picture a 10 ever being past its prime.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 05, 2016, 11:06:03 am
So this is the recipe with the D-180:

Recipe: Rochefort 4
Brewer: Homo Eccentricus
Style: Belgian Specialty Ale
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 14.44 l
Post Boil Volume: 11.44 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 9.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 33.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 15.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 74.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.3 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
1.75 kg               Pilsen (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC)             Grain         1        79.2 %       
0.18 kg               Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC)              Grain         2        8.1 %         
0.10 kg               Wheat, Flaked (3.2 EBC)                  Grain         3        4.5 %         
7.50 g                Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - First Wort 9 Hop           4        12.1 IBUs     
0.18 kg               Candi Sugar, Dark (355.0 EBC)            Sugar         5        8.1 %         
7.50 g                Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] - Boil  Hop           6        3.8 IBUs     
2.50 g                Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)           Spice         7        -             
1.0 pkg               Belgian Abbey II (Wyeast Labs #1762) [12 Yeast         8        -             


I have a mash question.  It is rumored that it is the following step infusion mash: 135-145-165-172° F (57-63-74-78° C). Would you advise that I do this?

BTW "Fermentation begins at 68° F (20° C), and the temperature rises to 73° F (23° C) during six to seven days of primary." (BLAM)
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 05, 2016, 11:14:56 am
Yeah, I get Rochefort sometimes that has a fairly uniform sediment in the bottom with no floaters, other times even chilled and undisturbed it has lots of floaters. I read where Gordon said that a beer with lots of floaters in suspension is often past its prime. Although it's pretty hard to picture a 10 ever being past its prime.

Had a 6 yesterday, no floaters. Expiration date: end 2020!
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 05, 2016, 11:18:08 am
Referencing BLAM:

"...pH drops to 5.8-5.9 in the mash, with mineral acid used to drop the pH to 5.2 in the kettle."

That suggests that the water may stay relatively untouched, no?


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I'm not sure whether I understand this completely. Does it mean I brew with water with high alkalinity and then use phosphoric acid to drop the pH during the boil? How do I calculate that?
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 05, 2016, 11:52:48 am

Referencing BLAM:

"...pH drops to 5.8-5.9 in the mash, with mineral acid used to drop the pH to 5.2 in the kettle."

That suggests that the water may stay relatively untouched, no?


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I'm not sure whether I understand this completely. Does it mean I brew with water with high alkalinity and then use phosphoric acid to drop the pH during the boil? How do I calculate that?


I'm not sure I do either!

Seriously though what you described is how I interpreted it.


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: Hickory on March 05, 2016, 11:56:16 am
This page inspired me to try a Rouchefort, never had one before. The liquor store by my house only had a 10 so I guess I'll start at the top. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160305/4ed073c66c9aa0e7a602ec6dd9ea693b.jpg)
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 05, 2016, 03:32:53 pm

This page inspired me to try a Rouchefort, never had one before. The liquor store by my house only had a 10 so I guess I'll start at the top. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160305/4ed073c66c9aa0e7a602ec6dd9ea693b.jpg)

That's awesome Nate.

The 10 can be a bit boozy when it's young but are still delicious.

If you have the will power to let them sit for a while you'll be rewarded. I had one in January for my birthday that had been aging for about 7 months. Awesome.

I personally enjoy the 8 the best, then the 6 and finally the 10.


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: brewinhard on March 05, 2016, 03:46:18 pm
+1 to an excellent beer.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 05, 2016, 04:50:28 pm
The 10 is one of my favorites in the world. I do like all three immensely, but like the 10 best.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: RPIScotty on March 05, 2016, 05:43:01 pm

The 10 is one of my favorites in the world. I do like all three immensely, but like the 10 best.

Do you agree with my assessment on aging the 10?


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Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 05, 2016, 05:50:24 pm

The 10 is one of my favorites in the world. I do like all three immensely, but like the 10 best.

Do you agree with my assessment on aging the 10?


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Oh yeah. Can't go wrong aging it. Though I kinda like a lightly boozy one. Kind of a rum-soaked raisin thing.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: Hand of Dom on March 06, 2016, 02:20:48 am
Rochefort 8 is my absolute favourite beer, the 10 runs it close though. 
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 07, 2016, 08:52:52 am
Referencing BLAM:

"...pH drops to 5.8-5.9 in the mash, with mineral acid used to drop the pH to 5.2 in the kettle."

That suggests that the water may stay relatively untouched, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure whether I understand this completely. Does it mean I brew with water with high alkalinity and then use phosphoric acid to drop the pH during the boil? How do I calculate that?

Why bother?
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 07, 2016, 09:44:34 am
Because Rochefort water has relatively high alkalinity. Pre-boil Ca 82 and 245 bicarbonates, post-boil Ca 28 and 80 bicarbonates. Don't know what the good monks use, but according to BLAM they don't modify it in the mash...
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 07, 2016, 10:07:51 am
Because Rochefort water has relatively high alkalinity. Pre-boil Ca 82 and 245 bicarbonates, post-boil Ca 28 and 80 bicarbonates. Don't know what the good monks use, but according to BLAM they don't modify it in the mash...

There are many roads to the same destination, grasshopper.  Just becasue that's what they do doesn't man you necessarily have to do the same.  I certainly don't do what you propose and using pretty much the same recipe my beer tastes remarkably like the real thing.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 07, 2016, 11:30:20 am
Because Rochefort water has relatively high alkalinity. Pre-boil Ca 82 and 245 bicarbonates, post-boil Ca 28 and 80 bicarbonates. Don't know what the good monks use, but according to BLAM they don't modify it in the mash...

There are many roads to the same destination, grasshopper.  Just becasue that's what they do doesn't man you necessarily have to do the same.  I certainly don't do what you propose and using pretty much the same recipe my beer tastes remarkably like the real thing.
Duh, I bet you use Special B too ;)
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 07, 2016, 12:01:19 pm
Because Rochefort water has relatively high alkalinity. Pre-boil Ca 82 and 245 bicarbonates, post-boil Ca 28 and 80 bicarbonates. Don't know what the good monks use, but according to BLAM they don't modify it in the mash...

There are many roads to the same destination, grasshopper.  Just becasue that's what they do doesn't man you necessarily have to do the same.  I certainly don't do what you propose and using pretty much the same recipe my beer tastes remarkably like the real thing.
Duh, I bet you use Special B too ;)

If it makes it taste right, damn betcha Skippy!  ;)
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: JJeffers09 on March 07, 2016, 12:30:49 pm
Does anyone know where I can buy this stuff or is it Monastery only?
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: 69franx on March 07, 2016, 12:46:00 pm
Does anyone know where I can buy this stuff or is it Monastery only?
Do you mean Rochefort 4? I think the OP is just trying to build a lower strength version of the originals based on his own observations, so its not available to my knowledge. But its a recipe I am interested in as well
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: JJeffers09 on March 07, 2016, 01:00:08 pm
I thought it was a Rochefort Trappist Patersbier, if not obviously I feel like an idiot, will not be the last time either.

Either way I really want to get ahold of this beer, and if the only option I have is to brew it, don't tempt me.  I don't need any more reasons to keep brewing.  It would have to wait though.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 07, 2016, 01:07:44 pm
I thought it was a Rochefort Trappist Patersbier, if not obviously I feel like an idiot, will not be the last time either.

Either way I really want to get ahold of this beer, and if the only option I have is to brew it, don't tempt me.  I don't need any more reasons to keep brewing.  It would have to wait though.

The one in the OP doesn't exist in the "real" world, which is why he's trying to make it.  The 6,8, and 10 are pretty widely available.  The recipe I posted can be made as a 6, 8, or 10 simply by changing the amount of sugar used.  And the flavor is incredibly close to the real thing.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 07, 2016, 01:21:55 pm
And there's still room for a Rochefort 2 as well ;)
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: denny on March 07, 2016, 01:44:57 pm
And there's still room for a Rochefort 2 as well ;)

That's where you look at a glass of 10 from across the room
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 07, 2016, 01:45:58 pm
That's where you look at a glass of 10 from across the room


Ok, that's pretty awesome. Kudos  ;D
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on May 13, 2016, 01:58:08 pm
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160513/8f3b24427318545374e6c40b438ead00.jpg)

In the end I didn't add the wheat. Unfortunately a bit darker and sweeter than the 6, so not all my goals were achieved. But definitely a recognizable member of the Rochefort family. Hint of coriander, full mouthfeel, Rochefort yeast. In my opinion special b is not required. Very quaffable. So all in all pretty satisfied. If you want to brew this, maybe lower the amount of cara malt a bit.
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 13, 2016, 01:59:24 pm
Looks tasty!
Title: Re: Rochefort 4
Post by: homoeccentricus on July 12, 2016, 11:23:11 am
So I entered this beer in the Open Dutch Championship in the "open" class, which means you have to submit the recipe with the beer. No prize (not sufficiently innovative), but ended in the top 10 as a "complex" beer. The c-word is the highest praise one can get.

This is what I would change the next time:
- add a bit more hops (judge complained about this)
- ferment even lower than 18C(?) because I got complaints about too much banana esters.
- decrease the amount of syrup, as the "4" was a bit darker than the 6.
- submit the kegged version instead of the one with sugar added to the bottle. The kegged version tasted much fresher.