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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 01:35:17 AM

Title: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 01:35:17 AM
Been fermenting a modified "Parting Glass Dubbel" since Saturday afternoon.

I was pretty diligent about checking temp (water bath). I pitched a bit cold (around 62°F), by Sunday morning I was at 65°F.

Between Monday morning and Monday night I experienced some vigorous krausen activity and when I returned home from work I notice my airlock filled with krausen and a bit of blow off through the top of the airlock. At that point I was at ~69°F. By Tuesday my temp had stabilized at 72°F where it has stayed since.

I took a gravity reading tonight and I am at 1.011, down from 1.075. That's 85% AA.

I haven't experienced this vigorous or fast a fermentation with 3787 the few other times I've used it. Something seems suspect to me.


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Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: majorvices on March 10, 2016, 01:38:15 AM
How's it taste?
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 01:43:02 AM
Not bad. A little heat but not solvent. No bad off flavors jumping out from the sample.


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Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: neddles on March 10, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
I have had 3787 ferment quickly and I have also had it drag out fermentation for 2-3 weeks. Beers turned out well either way.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 01:45:15 AM
Ferments like freaking gangbusters every time I use it. 85% AA is pretty normal for me too, depending on grist.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 01:47:19 AM
What do you guys typically ferment at? I was trying to keep it mid 60s for 3-4 days but didn't get the chance!


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Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: neddles on March 10, 2016, 02:12:19 AM
What do you guys typically ferment at? I was trying to keep it mid 60s for 3-4 days but didn't get the chance!


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Pitched at 65F and slowly raised to 70F after a few days.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dmtaylor on March 10, 2016, 03:03:52 AM
It could happen I suppose.  But my experience has been closer to 76%.  Did you use a lot of simple sugars in the recipe??  That could do it.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 09:32:37 AM

It could happen I suppose.  But my experience has been closer to 76%.  Did you use a lot of simple sugars in the recipe??  That could do it.

About 10% Turbinado.


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Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dmtaylor on March 10, 2016, 11:40:21 AM
Yep, that'll make a difference.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
I usually hold it @ 64F for 2-3 days, then ramp up slowly to 75ish. There's normally some sugar of some sort in the grist, so I usually get similar high attenuation to yours.
Title: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 12:54:54 PM
I was at 62 for about 24 hours. (Saturday afternoon to Sunday night)

Naturally rose to about 65 by about Sunday night.

Around Monday night it had rose to about 69 and there were signs of vigorous fermentation during the day while at work (a bit of blow off through airlock, airlock filled with Krausen).

Tuesday it was up to about 72, where it stayed until last night when I took a gravity reading.

So 1.075 to 1.010 (~85% AA) in 4.5 days.


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Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 01:01:33 PM
It could be worse - had you been at 69-72F for all of the first 2 days it could've been a mess. It may need to age a little longer but I bet it'll be fine. Does it seem overly phenolic ?
Title: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 01:08:48 PM
I would say it ranged from 60-65 for the first 48-54 hours.

It's hard to tell with the beer at 72 ish and flat but it doesn't seem to be overly phenolic. There is definitely some there and a bit of alcohol heat but nothing that makes me say, "There is something very wrong here."

I confirmed 1.010 again this morning and was going to start chilling it down to around the mid 30s for 3-4 days before I bottle it.

Adding bottling yeast and Turbinado for priming.


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Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 01:19:19 PM
I would say it ranged from 60-65 for the first 48-54 hours.

It's hard to tell with the beer at 72 ish and flat but it doesn't seem to be overly phenolic. There is definitely some there and a bit of alcohol heat but nothing that makes me say, "There is something very wrong here."

I confirmed 1.010 again this morning and was going to start chilling it down to around the mid 30s for 3-4 days before I bottle it.

Adding bottling yeast and Turbinado for priming.


I think it'll be good.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 02:07:00 PM
I think so too.

It just caught me off guard.

I remember the first time I used 3787 (this is the 3rd) I had disastrous results: first AG batch, terrible ferm temp management, etc. You know the deal.

2nd time was lights years ahead of the first. Better ferm temp management but long lag and almost 2 weeks to reach FG. I believe I used 0.75 as a pitch rate  target.

This time I aerated better, pitch a bit more (1 whole smack pack aiming for 1 M/mL/P), and tried to keep the temps under control.


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Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: denny on March 10, 2016, 04:27:05 PM
What do you guys typically ferment at? I was trying to keep it mid 60s for 3-4 days but didn't get the chance!


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Pitch at 63.  After maybe 5-7 days, raise temp to 70 or so.  When it hits FG, I crash at 33.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 04:30:59 PM

What do you guys typically ferment at? I was trying to keep it mid 60s for 3-4 days but didn't get the chance!


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Pitch at 63.  After maybe 5-7 days, raise temp to 70 or so.  When it hits FG, I crash at 33.

That is what I aimed for Denny but I seemed to have spiked from 65-69 °F over about 24 hrs between Sunday afternoon and Monday night (~28 hours).

No obvious or offensive flavors right now and I'm going to crash tonight.


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Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: narcout on March 10, 2016, 05:23:21 PM
Personally, I would let it hang out at the current temperature for another few days (I would probably go a week) before crashing it. 

It may have reached FG, but that doesn't mean the yeast are finished cleaning up.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 05:59:32 PM

Personally, I would let it hang out at the current temperature for another few days (I would probably go a week) before crashing it. 

It may have reached FG, but that doesn't mean the yeast are finished cleaning up.

That's a good point. I may hold at 72 for a few more days before crashing.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dilluh98 on March 10, 2016, 06:11:28 PM
Every time in the past that I've tried to push a Belgian beer (low or high gravity) in terms of packaging - I didn't like the results. I won't even think of bottling until 3 weeks have passed now, regardless of how quickly I get to FG.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 06:15:33 PM

Every time in the past that I've tried to push a Belgian beer (low or high gravity) in terms of packaging - I didn't like the results. I won't even think of bottling until 3 weeks have passed now, regardless of how quickly I get to FG.

What temp do you typically rest at to allow the yeast to "clean up"?

This is only the 3rd time I've used 3787 after using 1214, 1762 and 3522 on other occasions.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dilluh98 on March 10, 2016, 06:22:09 PM
Low to mid-70s. I mostly use saison yeasts and find no need to push the temps any higher than that to get the attenuation/character I want out of it.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2016, 06:22:38 PM
I just leave it in the low 70s (where I ramped to). It'll clean up nicely. I agree with leaving it in primary for 2 or 3 weeks. A month in primary for quad for me.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 06:36:31 PM

Low to mid-70s. I mostly use saison yeasts and find no need to push the temps any higher than that to get the attenuation/character I want out of it.

Interesting.

The other thread going on now about finishing Belgian beers has me thinking...

Let's totally disregard any flavor impacts from using bottling yeast.

Does introducing yeast at bottling time serve to "clean up" the beer in addition carbonating it?

Many of the Trappists outline a pretty strict and pretty short total fermentation schedule followed by short conditioning phases and bottle conditioning.

Now I agree that as homebrewers we have the ability to take our time and "damn the cost" so to speak. I know that many don't re-yeast in the bottle but primary for longer.

Is bottle conditioning by introducing fresh yeast doing more than just carbonation? Does it offer an equivalent method of cleaning the beer up as opposed to doing a longer primary?
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dilluh98 on March 10, 2016, 06:53:12 PM
I've never observed a difference in flavor between a beer I left in primary for 3 weeks, bottled vs one I've left in primary 3 weeks, crashed, added bottling yeast (neutral champagne yeast), bottled. Maybe you gain a little on how quickly it carbonates but that's a huge maybe.

I think what you're getting at is could we leave the beer in primary for 1.5-2 weeks, crash, add bottling yeast, bottle and get the same product? Never tried it. If that idea holds, it's still going to take some time in the bottle at ~RT to clean up so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Title: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 07:05:00 PM
I've never observed a difference in flavor between a beer I left in primary for 3 weeks, bottled vs one I've left in primary 3 weeks, crashed, added bottling yeast (neutral champagne yeast), bottled. Maybe you gain a little on how quickly it carbonates but that's a huge maybe.

I think what you're getting at is could we leave the beer in primary for 1.5-2 weeks, crash, add bottling yeast, bottle and get the same product? Never tried it. If that idea holds, it's still going to take some time in the bottle at ~RT to clean up so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

You kind of touched on my premise.

As an example, let's discuss fermentation of Chimay Premiere (from pg. 37 of BLAM). I understand that the differences in scale play a role but let's have a thought experiment:

Primary: 4 days

Secondary (i.e. Cold conditioning): 3 days at 32°F

Temp rises fairly high during primary. They centrifuge it twice (after primary and cold conditioning) dose it with sugar and yeast and then bottle. Total time is about 1-1.5 weeks until bottled.

Chimay makes great beers and granted, they have great fermentation practices, but they don't take that long to ferment and package. I'm thinking that the travel time overseas helps condition and clean up the beers.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dilluh98 on March 10, 2016, 07:51:02 PM
I think you'd really have to have a good handle on how your yeast behaves if you're going to significantly shorten the time in primary both in terms of flavor profile and in terms of leaving fermentable sugars when crashing. Being able to bottle condition a not fully attenuated (or cleaned up) beer and getting consistent 3.0 vol. CO2 sounds tricky at the homebrew level. Not saying it couldn't work but I'm not sure if the payoff is worth the effort. If you feel that this processing technique is what gives a beer a particular flavor profile you like then maybe it's worth trying out. If you do, keep us informed, I'd love to hear how it turned out.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: denny on March 10, 2016, 07:52:12 PM

Interesting.

The other thread going on now about finishing Belgian beers has me thinking...

Let's totally disregard any flavor impacts from using bottling yeast.

Does introducing yeast at bottling time serve to "clean up" the beer in addition carbonating it?

Many of the Trappists outline a pretty strict and pretty short total fermentation schedule followed by short conditioning phases and bottle conditioning.

Now I agree that as homebrewers we have the ability to take our time and "damn the cost" so to speak. I know that many don't re-yeast in the bottle but primary for longer.

Is bottle conditioning by introducing fresh yeast doing more than just carbonation? Does it offer an equivalent method of cleaning the beer up as opposed to doing a longer primary?

Nope.  There's so little fermentation going on that it does pretty much nothing but produce CO2.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: denny on March 10, 2016, 07:53:52 PM

You kind of touched on my premise.

As an example, let's discuss fermentation of Chimay Premiere (from pg. 37 of BLAM). I understand that the differences in scale play a role but let's have a thought experiment:

Primary: 4 days

Secondary (i.e. Cold conditioning): 3 days at 32°F

Temp rises fairly high during primary. They centrifuge it twice (after primary and cold conditioning) dose it with sugar and yeast and then bottle. Total time is about 1-1.5 weeks until bottled.

Chimay makes great beers and granted, they have great fermentation practices, but they don't take that long to ferment and package. I'm thinking that the travel time overseas helps condition and clean up the beers.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it does.  My turnaround on Belgian beers can be very quick and they don't exhibit any signs of needing more time.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 07:57:24 PM


You kind of touched on my premise.

As an example, let's discuss fermentation of Chimay Premiere (from pg. 37 of BLAM). I understand that the differences in scale play a role but let's have a thought experiment:

Primary: 4 days

Secondary (i.e. Cold conditioning): 3 days at 32°F

Temp rises fairly high during primary. They centrifuge it twice (after primary and cold conditioning) dose it with sugar and yeast and then bottle. Total time is about 1-1.5 weeks until bottled.

Chimay makes great beers and granted, they have great fermentation practices, but they don't take that long to ferment and package. I'm thinking that the travel time overseas helps condition and clean up the beers.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it does.  My turnaround on Belgian beers can be very quick and they don't exhibit any signs of needing more time.
can you elaborate on your process Denny?
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: denny on March 10, 2016, 07:59:44 PM


You kind of touched on my premise.

As an example, let's discuss fermentation of Chimay Premiere (from pg. 37 of BLAM). I understand that the differences in scale play a role but let's have a thought experiment:

Primary: 4 days

Secondary (i.e. Cold conditioning): 3 days at 32°F

Temp rises fairly high during primary. They centrifuge it twice (after primary and cold conditioning) dose it with sugar and yeast and then bottle. Total time is about 1-1.5 weeks until bottled.

Chimay makes great beers and granted, they have great fermentation practices, but they don't take that long to ferment and package. I'm thinking that the travel time overseas helps condition and clean up the beers.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it does.  My turnaround on Belgian beers can be very quick and they don't exhibit any signs of needing more time.
can you elaborate on your process Denny?

Very close to the Chimay schedule.  4-7 days at 63.  Whenever I reach or get close to my expected FG, I jack the temp to 70-72.  I leave it there until I get the FG I expect, then crash to 33 for 3-5 days and keg.
Title: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 08:02:28 PM
I think you'd really have to have a good handle on how your yeast behaves if you're going to significantly shorten the time in primary both in terms of flavor profile and in terms of leaving fermentable sugars when crashing. Being able to bottle condition a not fully attenuated (or cleaned up) beer and getting consistent 3.0 vol. CO2 sounds tricky at the homebrew level. Not saying it couldn't work but I'm not sure if the payoff is worth the effort. If you feel that this processing technique is what gives a beer a particular flavor profile you like then maybe it's worth trying out. If you do, keep us informed, I'd love to hear how it turned out.

I think there is a Δ here between my explanation and your interpretation. 

I'm assuming the beer is at its terminal gravity.

My beer is done fermenting. Does that change your response at all?
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 08:04:15 PM



You kind of touched on my premise.

As an example, let's discuss fermentation of Chimay Premiere (from pg. 37 of BLAM). I understand that the differences in scale play a role but let's have a thought experiment:

Primary: 4 days

Secondary (i.e. Cold conditioning): 3 days at 32°F

Temp rises fairly high during primary. They centrifuge it twice (after primary and cold conditioning) dose it with sugar and yeast and then bottle. Total time is about 1-1.5 weeks until bottled.

Chimay makes great beers and granted, they have great fermentation practices, but they don't take that long to ferment and package. I'm thinking that the travel time overseas helps condition and clean up the beers.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it does.  My turnaround on Belgian beers can be very quick and they don't exhibit any signs of needing more time.
can you elaborate on your process Denny?

Very close to the Chimay schedule.  4-7 days at 63.  Whenever I reach or get close to my expected FG, I jack the temp to 70-72.  I leave it there until I get the FG I expect, then crash to 33 for 3-5 days and keg.

Ok. So given my situation, FG reached, no further attenuation required or possible, is there any advantage to leaving the beer in primary?

I was planning on crashing it tonight.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dilluh98 on March 10, 2016, 08:27:02 PM
I think you'd really have to have a good handle on how your yeast behaves if you're going to significantly shorten the time in primary both in terms of flavor profile and in terms of leaving fermentable sugars when crashing. Being able to bottle condition a not fully attenuated (or cleaned up) beer and getting consistent 3.0 vol. CO2 sounds tricky at the homebrew level. Not saying it couldn't work but I'm not sure if the payoff is worth the effort. If you feel that this processing technique is what gives a beer a particular flavor profile you like then maybe it's worth trying out. If you do, keep us informed, I'd love to hear how it turned out.

I think there is a Δ here between my explanation and your interpretation. 

I'm assuming the beer is at its terminal gravity.

My beer is done fermenting. Does that change your response at all?

Fair enough. If it's done fermenting and you taste it and like the taste then it's probably ready to package. I've just never liked the taste of a saison after mid-60s full fermentation. The sweet spot for the saisons I typically make seems to be an additional 10-14 days at 70-72 F. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I've never liked what I made on a 10-14 day total turnaround on a saison.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 08:33:56 PM

I think you'd really have to have a good handle on how your yeast behaves if you're going to significantly shorten the time in primary both in terms of flavor profile and in terms of leaving fermentable sugars when crashing. Being able to bottle condition a not fully attenuated (or cleaned up) beer and getting consistent 3.0 vol. CO2 sounds tricky at the homebrew level. Not saying it couldn't work but I'm not sure if the payoff is worth the effort. If you feel that this processing technique is what gives a beer a particular flavor profile you like then maybe it's worth trying out. If you do, keep us informed, I'd love to hear how it turned out.

I think there is a Δ here between my explanation and your interpretation. 

I'm assuming the beer is at its terminal gravity.

My beer is done fermenting. Does that change your response at all?

Fair enough. If it's done fermenting and you taste it and like the taste then it's probably ready to package. I've just never liked the taste of a saison after mid-60s full fermentation. The sweet spot for the saisons I typically make seems to be an additional 10-14 days at 70-72 F. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I've never liked what I made on a 10-14 day total turnaround on a saison.

Understood.

Conversely, I have never brewed a saison so I have no frame of reference about the fermentation requirements for that style.

We may be talking apples and oranges here!
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dilluh98 on March 10, 2016, 08:37:22 PM
Maybe, but at the end of the day, an extra week in primary will not hurt the beer. It might help the beer considerably or only by a very small amount or none at all, but it certainly isn't hurting the beer. What's the rush?
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: denny on March 10, 2016, 08:52:44 PM

Ok. So given my situation, FG reached, no further attenuation required or possible, is there any advantage to leaving the beer in primary?

I was planning on crashing it tonight.

You're the only who can decide that.  Taste it...that's what I do.  Put some in a PET bottle with a carb cap.  Hit it with 30 psi, shake the crap out of it and put it in the freezer for 45 min.  Your tastebuds will tell you what to do.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 08:53:48 PM

Maybe, but at the end of the day, an extra week in primary will not hurt the beer. It might help the beer considerably or only by a very small amount or none at all, but it certainly isn't hurting the beer. What's the rush?

I'm just of the opinion that why would you wait if you didn't have to?

You have a very compelling argument why you wait. You have obtained results empirically that tells you that waiting is good for the end product in your Saisons.

I want to believe that if the fermentation was healthy and beer tastes good that there isn't a need to let it "clean up".

I definitely respect all the opinions and advice though. I'm definitely not railing against you guys here.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 08:58:21 PM


Ok. So given my situation, FG reached, no further attenuation required or possible, is there any advantage to leaving the beer in primary?

I was planning on crashing it tonight.

You're the only who can decide that.  Taste it...that's what I do.  Put some in a PET bottle with a carb cap.  Hit it with 30 psi, shake the crap out of it and put it in the freezer for 45 min.  Your tastebuds will tell you what to do.

I'm not a kegger so I don't have the equipment to do that but feel confident in crashing tonight. Thanks for the advice Denny.

Do you vary your schedule depending on the yeast used or is it pretty standard?
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: denny on March 10, 2016, 09:13:22 PM

I'm not a kegger so I don't have the equipment to do that but feel confident in crashing tonight. Thanks for the advice Denny.

Do you vary your schedule depending on the yeast used or is it pretty standard?

Every ale starts with that kind of schedule in mind, then gets adjusted based on reality.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dilluh98 on March 10, 2016, 09:46:16 PM

I'm not a kegger so I don't have the equipment to do that but feel confident in crashing tonight. Thanks for the advice Denny.

Do you vary your schedule depending on the yeast used or is it pretty standard?

Every ale starts with that kind of schedule in mind, then gets adjusted based on reality.

+1.

There's also practicality to consider. Having a 1 year old, I don't have time during the week to bottle beer (barely time on the weekend for that matter). Therefore I have to bottle at 7 day intervals. One week is ok for low gravity/simple stuff. Two weeks is typically fine for most of the beer I brew (moderate gravity ales). Based on experience and tasting, three weeks works well for moderate/high gravity saisons for me. Maybe 17-18 days would be just as good as 21 but I'm not bottling on a Wednesday. The only thing I've let sit in primary for four weeks recently was my winter RIS at 11% ABV.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 10, 2016, 09:50:03 PM


I'm not a kegger so I don't have the equipment to do that but feel confident in crashing tonight. Thanks for the advice Denny.

Do you vary your schedule depending on the yeast used or is it pretty standard?

Every ale starts with that kind of schedule in mind, then gets adjusted based on reality.

+1.

There's also practicality to consider. Having a 1 year old, I don't have time during the week to bottle beer (barely time on the weekend for that matter). Therefore I have to bottle at 7 day intervals. One week is ok for low gravity/simple stuff. Two weeks is typically fine for most of the beer I brew (moderate gravity ales). Based on experience and tasting, three weeks works well for moderate/high gravity saisons for me. Maybe 17-18 days would be just as good as 21 but I'm not bottling on a Wednesday. The only thing I've let sit in primary for four weeks recently was my winter RIS at 11% ABV.

I hear you. I've got a 2 yr. old and 4 mo. old.
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: RPIScotty on March 11, 2016, 12:03:30 AM
Currently sitting at 36°F
Title: Re: WY3787 Attenuation
Post by: dilluh98 on March 11, 2016, 02:09:24 AM
Currently sitting at 36°F


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