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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: richardt on June 23, 2010, 09:24:35 PM

Title: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: richardt on June 23, 2010, 09:24:35 PM
I'd like some input regarding an IPA recipe I'm creating.  My goal is to create an IPA that emphasizes citrus flavors/aromas.
I'm about to make an IPA utilizing these 5 hops:  Magnum, Summit, Simcoe, Cascade, and Citra.
I measured them out today--hard for me to tell much of a difference between Simcoe, Cascade, and Citra.

Hops:
60 min addition    1 oz Magnum (mainly because I don't have enough Summit; and it is clean bittering)
20 min addition    1 oz Summit
15 min addition    1 oz each of Simcoe, Cascade, Citra
05 min addition 0.5 oz each of Summit, Simcoe, Cascade, and Citra
DH addition      0.5 oz each of Summit, Simcoe, Cascade, and Citra  (last 3 days in secondary)

Water will have an EH of 93, RA of -28, Est SRM 3-8, Cl:SO4 = 1 (balanced).  
Yeast is Wyeast 1056 (American Ale); + 2 L starter.

Grains (for 10 gallon batch size, OG estimate 1.073, FG estimate 1.017):
10 lb Pale Malt (2 row)
10 lb Pils malt (2 row)
1 lb Carafoam
1 lb Crystal 20
1 lb Crystal 40
1 lb Melanoiden/Aromatic malt
2 lb Cane sugar

Mash will be at 154 F (my goal med body--which I prefer, although style guidelines rec'd mashing at 150-151 F for a light body).

Am I going to be able to distiguish much much citrus complexity with flavors and aroma or is it just going to be overwhelmingly citrusy?
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: skyler on June 23, 2010, 11:07:57 PM
I think of simcoe and citra as tasting more fruity than specifically citrusy. That being said, I think your blend looks really good.

However, 154 is way too high, IMO. I mash an ipa between 148F and 150F for a light body and 152F for a medium body. I wouldn't mash over 152 for anything other than a malt-forward beer, especially one with that much crystal. You could try replacing that Sugar with some base malt.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: babalu87 on June 24, 2010, 01:13:49 AM
I agree, 154 is high for an IPA

Looks good otherwise though the melanoidin might take away from it a little. Try some Victory malt..........?
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: bluesman on June 24, 2010, 01:24:59 AM
I also would nix the melanoiden. I think you should move the 15 min addition down to 10 and the 5 down to flame out.

Other than that it looks pretty good.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: sutorbrew on June 24, 2010, 02:23:31 PM
I also would nix the melanoiden. I think you should move the 15 min addition down to 10 and the 5 down to flame out.

Other than that it looks pretty good.
I also agree on pulling the Melanoidin. Another thing you can try is cooling your wort down to 190 ish before throwing in your knockout hop addition. I find that it keeps a little more of the aroma around at those temps then right at 212.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: richardt on July 15, 2010, 04:51:15 AM
If you like fruit complexity, this beer is awesome.  It is definitely an American IPA (perhaps even a low-end IIPA), though some argument can be made by a blind taster for an APA if he or she didn't know the vitals (OG=1.075, FG=1.012, IBU= 53.4, SRM=7, ABV=8.2).  OMG, is it sneaky!  Just like a tripel.  Just the way I'd like it to be!

Aromas and flavors of apricot, citrus, grapefruit, lychee, and tangerine against a medium malt backbone that does not overpower.  It supports the clean yet enamel-coating bitterness which lingers well into the finish.  How can all three hop features be present yet complementary and perfectly balanced by the malt character?!  YUMMY!  I'm my own worst critic, but this is very enjoyable!  If you're a SN Pale Ale or SN Torpedo Extra IPA fan--you'll love this!

There's no hot character or "fusels" in the aroma or flavor.  (I used my newly bought Ranco fermentation controls that I wired myself).  I'm a believer: You gotta control the fermentation temps!  Only clean EtOH, and it isn't really that detectable in the aroma (again, sneaky!).  [thanks, MajorVices and Fred Bonjour--I know you guys really harped on this point in several other posts].

I did keep the mash temps lower (150-152 F, the entire time), rather than 154F.  Good advice there, guys.  I love sweets, but, you're right, I like the medium-dryness of the finish in this beer.

I did not change the grain bill. 
I kept the melanoiden.  And the crystals (20L and 40 L).  And the CaraPils.
And, I'm glad I did.  My bias is towards malty.  But, ths beer still leans hoppy.  Oh, yeah.  This beer is not "too malty," nor does it have "too much caramel" in my opinion.

HOPS:
I did tweak the hop additions.  Bluesman, I took your advice.  I changed the 15 minute additions to 10 minutes, and the 5 minute additions to 0 to +1 minute post knockout/IC initiation.
During SG readings, I'd sample the beer--I decided NOT to dry hop.  There already was plenty of hop flavor and aroma and it seemed perfectly balanced already.

Due to the busy family schedule, I just kept the beer in primary for two weeks before kegging and bottling.  It was done fermenting long before then, but I just didn't have the time.

Food pairing:  My mother makes a great "Russian Chicken" recipe utilizing Russian dressing and apricot preserves as glaze for baked chicken.  I have visions of Russian Chicken breasts atop beds of rice accompanied by this beer.  MMMM....good!  [Cap, please help me out here!]
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 15, 2010, 12:38:04 PM

I also agree on pulling the Melanoidin. Another thing you can try is cooling your wort down to 190 ish before throwing in your knockout hop addition. I find that it keeps a little more of the aroma around at those temps then right at 212.

You are correct.  Caryophyllene has a flash point of 200F, so adding the hops at 190F keeps this oil in the beer.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: hopaddicted on July 15, 2010, 08:25:52 PM
Just out of curiousity, why does everyone say nix the melanoiden? I've been considering using it in my next ipa to try to get more red in the coloring.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: blatz on July 15, 2010, 08:29:54 PM
Just out of curiousity, why does everyone say nix the melanoiden? I've been considering using it in my next ipa to try to get more red in the coloring.

cause it brings a lot more than 'red' to the party. 

the concentrated malt aroma will compete with the hop aromatics that you're trying to achieve here.

a little goes a long way with that one if you do choose to use it. like 4oz in 12gal batch little.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: richardt on July 16, 2010, 01:38:26 AM
Keep in mind that the above recipe is for a 10 gallon batch.  I used a full pound of melanoiden/aromatic malt in my 10 gallon batch = 0.5 lb (or 8 oz) for a 5 gallon batch.  Not "that much" more (just "double") than what the other's are recommending (4 oz).

I'm drinking it right now.  The malt structure is there (a "perfect" amount, I'd say) with both flavor and aroma; but it does not drown out or compete with the hops, IMO.
Compared to the malt, the hops play a much more prominent role in all three aspects (bittering, flavor, and aroma).

I definitely do not perceive that I "overdid" the melanoiden/aromatic malts. 

Wish I could have you bring over a glass and fill it up for you to prove it, but... you'll just have to make your own!  :-*
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: hopaddicted on July 16, 2010, 02:57:27 AM
I'm on my way richardt.

Good point on the maltiness, just did a DIPA, so still looking for a good malt base, to offset the hyperhop rates.

4 oz for a 12G batch seems miniscule. My brother recommended a couple of oz of chocolate malt for the coloring. I'm gonna have to check which batches I've used melanoidens in, this has my interest peaked. I like it! Thanks...
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2010, 01:29:05 PM
Obviously it is all personal preference but when I make APAs or (American) IPAs I try to down play the malt character. There are a few recipes I have that take exception to thins, but as a general rule malt complexity is not what I am going for in an IPA. I want the beer to be quaffable and when you have a malty backbone going on it tends to clash with the hops and, at least for my palate, takes away from the beer. A very simply malt bill, a little crystal to balance the hops and I call it good.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: blatz on July 16, 2010, 02:14:13 PM
My brother recommended a couple of oz of chocolate malt for the coloring. I'm gonna have to check which batches I've used melanoidens in, this has my interest peaked. I like it! Thanks...

I wouldn't use chocolate, I'd use Carafa Special (I or II ) if you're going just for color, and add it just before mashout (<5 min).  this will help keep any roast to an absolute minimum. 
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: blatz on July 16, 2010, 02:20:19 PM
Obviously it is all personal preference but when I make APAs or (American) IPAs I try to down play the malt character. There are a few recipes I have that take exception to thins, but as a general rule malt complexity is not what I am going for in an IPA. I want the beer to be quaffable and when you have a malty backbone going on it tends to clash with the hops and, at least for my palate, takes away from the beer. A very simply malt bill, a little crystal to balance the hops and I call it good.

^^^this.

richardt, it sounds like you have a widely different preference on IPAs than I do - different strokes, I guess.  Glad you are enjoying what you created though! Cheers!

Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: hopaddicted on July 16, 2010, 02:23:15 PM
Obviously it is all personal preference but when I make APAs or (American) IPAs I try to down play the malt character. There are a few recipes I have that take exception to thins, but as a general rule malt complexity is not what I am going for in an IPA. I want the beer to be quaffable and when you have a malty backbone going on it tends to clash with the hops and, at least for my palate, takes away from the beer. A very simply malt bill, a little crystal to balance the hops and I call it good.

Agreed, but with the extra pop of an DIPA, you need a little extra malt to keep the balance. Malt should def be in the background.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: hopaddicted on July 16, 2010, 02:34:19 PM
I'm on my way richardt.

Good point on the maltiness, just did a DIPA, so still looking for a good malt base, to offset the hyperhop rates.

4 oz for a 12G batch seems miniscule. My brother recommended a couple of oz of chocolate malt for the coloring. I'm gonna have to check which batches I've used melanoidens in, this has my interest peaked. I like it! Thanks...

I just checked what I had used Melanoidin on before, 4 oz on my IPA about to be kegged, and 1.5# on a parti-gyle DIPA (low SG) and Halloween Brew (Habanero Pale Ale), will update after I taste.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2010, 03:03:39 PM
Obviously it is all personal preference but when I make APAs or (American) IPAs I try to down play the malt character. There are a few recipes I have that take exception to thins, but as a general rule malt complexity is not what I am going for in an IPA. I want the beer to be quaffable and when you have a malty backbone going on it tends to clash with the hops and, at least for my palate, takes away from the beer. A very simply malt bill, a little crystal to balance the hops and I call it good.

Agreed, but with the extra pop of an DIPA, you need a little extra malt to keep the balance. Malt should def be in the background.

Ever had Pliny the Elder? Simple grain bill. 2 row, a little sugar, a little cara/crystal malt malt.  My IIPA is about the same as my IPA only I add sugar to bump up the OG and use a slightly higher grain bill. Still keep the malt way toned down. In fact, for a good IIPA I would even suggest to keep the malt more in the back than even an IPA. It should be all about hops and little else. Malt should be just there enough to balance everything else
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: richardt on July 16, 2010, 03:15:21 PM
I respect everyone's input. 
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php (http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php)

IMO, this beer recipe and the result is still to style guidelines for an American IPA:

Aroma:  "A prominent to intense hop aroma with a citrusy, floral, perfume-like, resinous, piney, and/or fruity character derived from American hops. Many versions are dry hopped and can have an additional grassy aroma, although this is not required. Some clean malty sweetness may be found in the background, but should be at a lower level than in English examples. Fruitiness, either from esters or hops, may also be detected in some versions, although a neutral fermentation character is also acceptable. Some alcohol may be noted."  Yes--that is what I got.

Color:  "Color ranges from medium gold to medium reddish copper; some versions can have an orange-ish tint. Should be clear, although unfiltered dry-hopped versions may be a bit hazy. Good head stand with white to off-white color should persist."  My result:  an outstanding sunset orange.

Flavor: "Malt flavor should be low to medium, and is generally clean and malty sweet although some caramel or toasty flavors are acceptable at low levels. No diacetyl. Low fruitiness is acceptable but not required.

Mouthfeel:   "Smooth, medium-light to medium-bodied mouthfeel without hop-derived astringency, although moderate to medium-high carbonation can combine to render an overall dry sensation in the presence of malt sweetness. Some smooth alcohol warming can and should be sensed in stronger (but not all) versions. Body is generally less than in English counterparts."
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: hopaddicted on July 16, 2010, 03:23:31 PM
I respect everyone's input. 
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php (http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php)

IMO, this beer recipe and the result is still to style guidelines for an American IPA:

Aroma:  "A prominent to intense hop aroma with a citrusy, floral, perfume-like, resinous, piney, and/or fruity character derived from American hops. Many versions are dry hopped and can have an additional grassy aroma, although this is not required. Some clean malty sweetness may be found in the background, but should be at a lower level than in English examples. Fruitiness, either from esters or hops, may also be detected in some versions, although a neutral fermentation character is also acceptable. Some alcohol may be noted."  Yes--that is what I got.

Color:  "Color ranges from medium gold to medium reddish copper; some versions can have an orange-ish tint. Should be clear, although unfiltered dry-hopped versions may be a bit hazy. Good head stand with white to off-white color should persist."  My result:  an outstanding sunset orange.

Flavor: "Malt flavor should be low to medium, and is generally clean and malty sweet although some caramel or toasty flavors are acceptable at low levels. No diacetyl. Low fruitiness is acceptable but not required.

Mouthfeel:   "Smooth, medium-light to medium-bodied mouthfeel without hop-derived astringency, although moderate to medium-high carbonation can combine to render an overall dry sensation in the presence of malt sweetness. Some smooth alcohol warming can and should be sensed in stronger (but not all) versions. Body is generally less than in English counterparts."

Amen! I am not a style guide stickler, but this is the beauty of homebrewing. You get to decide if it is low malt flavor or medium, whether it is medium bodied or even light. I am still definitely in the experimentation phase as I learn all of the malts, barely cracked the surface on the possibilities of hops, yeasts, and spices. We can each make what we like, on special occasions for friends and family, and are not at the whim of a brewmaster we will never meet nor have any influence over.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2010, 03:38:15 PM
I respect everyone's input. 
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php (http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php)

IMO, this beer recipe and the result is still to style guidelines for an American IPA:

Aroma:  "A prominent to intense hop aroma with a citrusy, floral, perfume-like, resinous, piney, and/or fruity character derived from American hops. Many versions are dry hopped and can have an additional grassy aroma, although this is not required. Some clean malty sweetness may be found in the background, but should be at a lower level than in English examples. Fruitiness, either from esters or hops, may also be detected in some versions, although a neutral fermentation character is also acceptable. Some alcohol may be noted."  Yes--that is what I got.

Color:  "Color ranges from medium gold to medium reddish copper; some versions can have an orange-ish tint. Should be clear, although unfiltered dry-hopped versions may be a bit hazy. Good head stand with white to off-white color should persist."  My result:  an outstanding sunset orange.

Flavor: "Malt flavor should be low to medium, and is generally clean and malty sweet although some caramel or toasty flavors are acceptable at low levels. No diacetyl. Low fruitiness is acceptable but not required.

Mouthfeel:   "Smooth, medium-light to medium-bodied mouthfeel without hop-derived astringency, although moderate to medium-high carbonation can combine to render an overall dry sensation in the presence of malt sweetness. Some smooth alcohol warming can and should be sensed in stronger (but not all) versions. Body is generally less than in English counterparts."

Again. I'm not criticizing your approach. Just putting my .02 cents in. There are a lot of IPAs on the market that are well respected and have a lot more malt than I care for in my IPA. Just, IMO, the BEST IPAs have a very simple grain bill. That doesn't mean that there is only one solution. Thankfully there are lots of different styles out there.

I would say that I feel my IPA falls within the guidelines as well with medium mouthfeel, etc. Like I said, to me the maltiness and hoppiness can really clash. That's my taste. My approach. Other may be different.
Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: richardt on July 19, 2010, 01:54:00 AM
Just took 5 gallons of my IPA to the "end of the season" all-star baseball party.  5 gallons of this IPA dissappeared in 5 hours.  There are only 12 kids on the team--and not all of the parents drink...

And, no!, I didn't drink it all --- I probably only had 3 half dixie-cups full the whole day.

Title: Re: IPA that emphasizes Citrus flavor/aroma
Post by: 1vertical on July 26, 2010, 03:28:05 AM
I tried an all Colombus beer that was an attempt at a clone of the Avery Hog Heaven beer.
I missed the OG so I just call it an APA .... anyhow it sure is reminiscent of Grapefruit from the Hops.