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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: RPIScotty on March 21, 2016, 05:01:21 PM

Title: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 21, 2016, 05:01:21 PM
I'm working on some original Belgian-inspired recipes for a Dubbel and Dark Strong and was wondering if anyone has some insight into the preparation and gravity contribution of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: denny on March 21, 2016, 05:19:06 PM
Pg. 166 of Experimental Homebrewing.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: dmtaylor on March 21, 2016, 05:35:07 PM
I've got real life data at home for dates, since I made a Sumerian date beer a few years ago.  Have to look it up later..........
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 21, 2016, 05:40:57 PM
Pg. 166 of Experimental Homebrewing.

I just looked at it and I assume I can use roughly the same values from Figs and Dates for Raisins?

I've got real life data at home for dates, since I made a Sumerian date beer a few years ago.  Have to look it up later..........

Thanks Dave.

You guys are the best. I love this place.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: denny on March 21, 2016, 05:47:46 PM
Yep, that should work.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 21, 2016, 05:54:55 PM
Yep, that should work.

Still working on the recipe and will report back when I brew it.

Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: dmtaylor on March 22, 2016, 02:13:15 AM
As promised...... in my experience, dried dates will give you 26 points per pound per gallon (1.026 specific gravity).  Sorry that's all I know.  I would guess the other dried fruits should give very similar results.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the Experimental Homebrewing book assumes the dried fruits are sugar coated??  Hmm, my scientific mind will think on this some more............

EDIT #2: No, I'm right.  EH is wrong (sorry Denny).  Dates should give about 26 ppppg based on my experience.  The ones I used were not mashed with any malts, just crushed and added to water, then measured with hydrometer.  If mashed with malts, they would have yielded more, as carbs got converted to more sugars.

I calculate figs might be as much as 32 ppppg if mashed with malts and assuming 100% efficiency.  Otherwise assume a bit less.  Raisins the most, up to 35 ppppg, same caveat.  This is based on the nutrition information from real dried fruits in my kitchen cupboard, ratio of grams of carbs per total grams, and assuming it's all converted into sucrose, which it's actually not, but anyway, sucrose has 45 ppppg, so... you probably ain't going to ever see the 1.070s for one pound in one gallon that EH talks about, not sure how that would happen?!?!
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 22, 2016, 02:17:27 AM
Good to know Dave.

I'm not sure how I'm going to approach this yet but it will be an original Dubbel/DSA combo with mixed base malt, date/fig/raisin/Turbinado contributions and whole leaf American hops.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: dmtaylor on March 22, 2016, 02:34:32 AM
Good to know Dave.

I'm not sure how I'm going to approach this yet but it will be an original Dubbel/DSA combo with mixed base malt, date/fig/raisin/Turbinado contributions and whole leaf American hops.

See revisions above also.

Yummy yum.  Good luck with it.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: denny on March 22, 2016, 03:37:17 PM
As promised...... in my experience, dried dates will give you 26 points per pound per gallon (1.026 specific gravity).  Sorry that's all I know.  I would guess the other dried fruits should give very similar results.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the Experimental Homebrewing book assumes the dried fruits are sugar coated??  Hmm, my scientific mind will think on this some more............

EDIT #2: No, I'm right.  EH is wrong (sorry Denny).  Dates should give about 26 ppppg based on my experience.  The ones I used were not mashed with any malts, just crushed and added to water, then measured with hydrometer.  If mashed with malts, they would have yielded more, as carbs got converted to more sugars.

I calculate figs might be as much as 32 ppppg if mashed with malts and assuming 100% efficiency.  Otherwise assume a bit less.  Raisins the most, up to 35 ppppg, same caveat.  This is based on the nutrition information from real dried fruits in my kitchen cupboard, ratio of grams of carbs per total grams, and assuming it's all converted into sucrose, which it's actually not, but anyway, sucrose has 45 ppppg, so... you probably ain't going to ever see the 1.070s for one pound in one gallon that EH talks about, not sure how that would happen?!?!

Thanks, Dave. Drew found those figures.  I'll see if I can find out where he got them.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 22, 2016, 04:14:21 PM
As promised...... in my experience, dried dates will give you 26 points per pound per gallon (1.026 specific gravity).  Sorry that's all I know.  I would guess the other dried fruits should give very similar results.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the Experimental Homebrewing book assumes the dried fruits are sugar coated??  Hmm, my scientific mind will think on this some more............

EDIT #2: No, I'm right.  EH is wrong (sorry Denny).  Dates should give about 26 ppppg based on my experience.  The ones I used were not mashed with any malts, just crushed and added to water, then measured with hydrometer.  If mashed with malts, they would have yielded more, as carbs got converted to more sugars.

I calculate figs might be as much as 32 ppppg if mashed with malts and assuming 100% efficiency.  Otherwise assume a bit less.  Raisins the most, up to 35 ppppg, same caveat.  This is based on the nutrition information from real dried fruits in my kitchen cupboard, ratio of grams of carbs per total grams, and assuming it's all converted into sucrose, which it's actually not, but anyway, sucrose has 45 ppppg, so... you probably ain't going to ever see the 1.070s for one pound in one gallon that EH talks about, not sure how that would happen?!?!

Would there be any advantages other than increased sugars if mashed?
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: denny on March 22, 2016, 04:31:34 PM
As promised...... in my experience, dried dates will give you 26 points per pound per gallon (1.026 specific gravity).  Sorry that's all I know.  I would guess the other dried fruits should give very similar results.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the Experimental Homebrewing book assumes the dried fruits are sugar coated??  Hmm, my scientific mind will think on this some more............

EDIT #2: No, I'm right.  EH is wrong (sorry Denny).  Dates should give about 26 ppppg based on my experience.  The ones I used were not mashed with any malts, just crushed and added to water, then measured with hydrometer.  If mashed with malts, they would have yielded more, as carbs got converted to more sugars.

I calculate figs might be as much as 32 ppppg if mashed with malts and assuming 100% efficiency.  Otherwise assume a bit less.  Raisins the most, up to 35 ppppg, same caveat.  This is based on the nutrition information from real dried fruits in my kitchen cupboard, ratio of grams of carbs per total grams, and assuming it's all converted into sucrose, which it's actually not, but anyway, sucrose has 45 ppppg, so... you probably ain't going to ever see the 1.070s for one pound in one gallon that EH talks about, not sure how that would happen?!?!

Would there be any advantages other than increased sugars if mashed?

Why would mashing make any difference?  And good point about straight sugar, Dave.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 22, 2016, 04:36:34 PM
Gotta say, I really like the date/fig/raisin/Turbinado idea. Personally, I would take the 'caramelize the fruit in wort, then puree' approach. I'll be curious to see how it comes out.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 22, 2016, 04:43:12 PM
As promised...... in my experience, dried dates will give you 26 points per pound per gallon (1.026 specific gravity).  Sorry that's all I know.  I would guess the other dried fruits should give very similar results.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the Experimental Homebrewing book assumes the dried fruits are sugar coated??  Hmm, my scientific mind will think on this some more............

EDIT #2: No, I'm right.  EH is wrong (sorry Denny).  Dates should give about 26 ppppg based on my experience.  The ones I used were not mashed with any malts, just crushed and added to water, then measured with hydrometer.  If mashed with malts, they would have yielded more, as carbs got converted to more sugars.

I calculate figs might be as much as 32 ppppg if mashed with malts and assuming 100% efficiency.  Otherwise assume a bit less.  Raisins the most, up to 35 ppppg, same caveat.  This is based on the nutrition information from real dried fruits in my kitchen cupboard, ratio of grams of carbs per total grams, and assuming it's all converted into sucrose, which it's actually not, but anyway, sucrose has 45 ppppg, so... you probably ain't going to ever see the 1.070s for one pound in one gallon that EH talks about, not sure how that would happen?!?!

Would there be any advantages other than increased sugars if mashed?

Why would mashing make any difference?  And good point about straight sugar, Dave.

I'm not sure Denny, I was just piggy-backing on Dave's comments trying to get more info.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 22, 2016, 04:48:25 PM
Gotta say, I really like the date/fig/raisin/Turbinado idea. Personally, I would take the 'caramelize the fruit in wort, then puree' approach. I'll be curious to see how it comes out.

I'm trying to do something a bit original and different but keep in the spirit of the beers I love. 

I'm really chasing a certain flavor I got from the first Westmalle Dubbel I ever had. It looked as though it had been sitting on the shelf for ages, it was dusty, etc.

When I cracked it I got a sweet, chocolately, raisiny/figgy aroma that just knocked me out. The flavor was more of the same, much more than what you typically get with Westmalle. I really can't explain it all that great and it may have been in my mind or incorrect now that I've had so many of them.

Not that i'm restricting myself to just that.


Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: denny on March 22, 2016, 05:00:30 PM
Gotta say, I really like the date/fig/raisin/Turbinado idea. Personally, I would take the 'caramelize the fruit in wort, then puree' approach. I'll be curious to see how it comes out.

I'm trying to do something a bit original and different but keep in the spirit of the beers I love. 

I'm really chasing a certain flavor I got from the first Westmalle Dubbel I ever had. It looked as though it had been sitting on the shelf for ages, it was dusty, etc.

When I cracked it I got a sweet, chocolately, raisiny/figgy aroma that just knocked me out. The flavor was more of the same, much more than what you typically get with Westmalle. I really can't explain it all that great and it may have been in my mind or incorrect now that I've had so many of them.

Not that i'm restricting myself to just that.

That's the flavor you get from D180
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 22, 2016, 05:03:44 PM
Gotta say, I really like the date/fig/raisin/Turbinado idea. Personally, I would take the 'caramelize the fruit in wort, then puree' approach. I'll be curious to see how it comes out.

I'm trying to do something a bit original and different but keep in the spirit of the beers I love. 

I'm really chasing a certain flavor I got from the first Westmalle Dubbel I ever had. It looked as though it had been sitting on the shelf for ages, it was dusty, etc.

When I cracked it I got a sweet, chocolately, raisiny/figgy aroma that just knocked me out. The flavor was more of the same, much more than what you typically get with Westmalle. I really can't explain it all that great and it may have been in my mind or incorrect now that I've had so many of them.

Not that i'm restricting myself to just that.

That's the flavor you get from D180

Maybe. The syrup itself yes. This was something altogether different in my opinion and unlike anything I've tasted in a finished beer. I've tasted very close to it (my Westmalle experience) in other beers but never equalled it.

Like I said, this was a long time ago and maybe i've just built this up in my head.

You're 100% right though about the D180. It has all of that in the syrup form.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: dmtaylor on March 22, 2016, 05:09:44 PM
Would there be any advantages other than increased sugars if mashed?

Why would mashing make any difference?  And good point about straight sugar, Dave.

I'd never thought about this until yesterday, but considering that the dried fruits contain more carbohydrates than simple sugars, if you mashed with enzymes, these carbs (i.e., starches) should theoretically be convertable just like we all do with malt, converting starches to sugars.  Raw malt is sweet, but gets much sweeter with mashing, etc.  So, why should fruits with extra starches be any different?!?!
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: denny on March 22, 2016, 05:33:07 PM
Would there be any advantages other than increased sugars if mashed?

Why would mashing make any difference?  And good point about straight sugar, Dave.

I'd never thought about this until yesterday, but considering that the dried fruits contain more carbohydrates than simple sugars, if you mashed with enzymes, these carbs (i.e., starches) should theoretically be convertable just like we all do with malt, converting starches to sugars.  Raw malt is sweet, but gets much sweeter with mashing, etc.  So, why should fruits with extra starches be any different?!?!

Who knows?  Sounds like an experiment!
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 22, 2016, 05:34:42 PM
Would there be any advantages other than increased sugars if mashed?

Why would mashing make any difference?  And good point about straight sugar, Dave.

I'd never thought about this until yesterday, but considering that the dried fruits contain more carbohydrates than simple sugars, if you mashed with enzymes, these carbs (i.e., starches) should theoretically be convertable just like we all do with malt, converting starches to sugars.  Raw malt is sweet, but gets much sweeter with mashing, etc.  So, why should fruits with extra starches be any different?!?!

Who knows?  Sounds like an experiment!

I'm game!
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: fmader on March 22, 2016, 05:46:46 PM
Gotta say, I really like the date/fig/raisin/Turbinado idea. Personally, I would take the 'caramelize the fruit in wort, then puree' approach. I'll be curious to see how it comes out.

I did this with raisins, dates, dried cherries, and prunes..... Needless to say, the beer did not advance lol
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 22, 2016, 05:52:02 PM
Gotta say, I really like the date/fig/raisin/Turbinado idea. Personally, I would take the 'caramelize the fruit in wort, then puree' approach. I'll be curious to see how it comes out.

I did this with raisins, dates, dried cherries, and prunes..... Needless to say, the beer did not advance lol



Always a crap shoot. I'm betting it was killer.
Title: Re: Gravity contributions of Raisins, Dates and Figs?
Post by: RPIScotty on March 22, 2016, 06:05:18 PM
As of right now i'm thinking the following:

50/50 split of Pils/Pale       65%
Dark Munich                     12%
Torrified Wheat                  3%
Turbinado                         10%
Raisin/Date/Figs                10%

3787 and Cascade leaf hops