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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: trentm on March 31, 2016, 07:34:25 PM

Title: Always start low and go high?
Post by: trentm on March 31, 2016, 07:34:25 PM
Always start at the low end of the recommended yeast temperature range (possibly even lower).  When primary fermentation subsides, slowly ramp to the desired temperature.

Are there any exceptions (or yeasts that are an exception) to this rule?
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: denny on March 31, 2016, 07:53:42 PM
Not that I've found so far for my own tastes.  I have heard of people who start saison or Belgian styles high, but I don't care the results of doing that.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: narcout on March 31, 2016, 09:09:50 PM
I think it really depends on what the end goal is. 
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: trentm on March 31, 2016, 11:18:27 PM
I think it really depends on what the end goal is.

Please elaborate and give an example.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 01, 2016, 12:09:24 AM
Not that I've found so far for my own tastes.  I have heard of people who start saison or Belgian styles high, but I don't care the results of doing that.

I've only done one hot fermentation and it did really help to get 3724 to finish.  I don;t detect anything unpleasant in the beer.

What is your 3724 protocol?  I've had too many stuck to mess around with this yeast.  I have not tried open ferm but I'm also using better bottles so I dont know how much benefit I'll get.
Title: Always start low and go high?
Post by: RPIScotty on April 01, 2016, 12:17:06 AM
I think the whole "hot" Belgian fermentation thing is very misunderstood.

Maybe ramping for attenuation varies greatly bit I would wager that most if not all Trappist, Abbey and regional brewers are initially fermenting cool.

I could be wrong but that always been my intuition.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 01, 2016, 12:20:29 AM
I don't think anyone is recommending hot fermentation for all Belgian yeasts.

But many people are recommending it for 3724 due to the propensity to stall.

It's an extremely fickle yeast.  Hot fermentation (I ran at 85) blows right through the stall.

I just did this on my last batch.  I sent some in to the NHC, we'll see where it goes.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: RPIScotty on April 01, 2016, 12:22:40 AM
I don't think anyone is recommending hot fermentation for all Belgian yeasts.

But many people are recommending it for 3724 due to the propensity to stall.

It's an extremely fickle yeast.  Hot fermentation (I ran at 85) blows right through the stall.

I just did this on my last batch.  I sent some in to the NHC, we'll see where it goes.

Yeah sorry. My post was a bit out of place. I didn't mean to direct it at anyone in particular.

Are you ramping through the stall on the 3724 or starting hot? I've never used it.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: narcout on April 01, 2016, 12:26:36 AM
I think it really depends on what the end goal is.

Please elaborate and give an example.

Speaking very generally and ignoring other factors that might be relevant (pitch rate, etc.), pitching cooler tends to produce a cleaner beer with less yeast character. 

That might be desirable for an APA but maybe less so for an ESB.

It's also strain dependent.  You can pitch fairly warm with US-05 and still end up with a relatively clean beer, but if you pitch 1214 much above the mid 60's, you're likely to end up with some banana flavors (at least that has been my experience).
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: Phil_M on April 01, 2016, 12:35:41 AM
FWIW, from what I understand, Brassiere Dupont does a "hot" primary, then chills down to the mid-upper 60's.

My temperature control currently limits me to only adding heat to a fermentation. That boils down for me to finally have a reason to experiment with Saisons a bit more. I think my next attempt will blend 3724 and WLP 565, per Drew's post on the Maltose Falcons page.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 01, 2016, 12:52:18 AM
I don't think anyone is recommending hot fermentation for all Belgian yeasts.

But many people are recommending it for 3724 due to the propensity to stall.

It's an extremely fickle yeast.  Hot fermentation (I ran at 85) blows right through the stall.

I just did this on my last batch.  I sent some in to the NHC, we'll see where it goes.

Yeah sorry. My post was a bit out of place. I didn't mean to direct it at anyone in particular.

Are you ramping through the stall on the 3724 or starting hot? I've never used it.

No worries.

I meant to ramp but wound up running at 85 throughout.

I just put together an stc 1000 so next time I should have better control.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: erockrph on April 01, 2016, 02:04:48 AM
I can't think of a strain or a reason why I would pitch higher than my main fermentation temp. I've heard this recommendation for lagers, with the suggested reason being that you want your yeast to start fermentation quickly to minimize the chance for contamination. In my experience, I get excellent results by pitching lagers about 5F lower than my initial fermentation temps. If you're having issues with contamination, then you need something beyond a simple change in pitching temps.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: narcout on April 01, 2016, 04:27:07 AM
I can't think of a strain or a reason why I would pitch higher than my main fermentation temp.

I interpreted the OP's post as asking whether you would ever want to pitch at the same temp you plan to ferment at rather than a few degrees below.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: dmtaylor on April 01, 2016, 05:10:21 AM
Always start at the low end of the recommended yeast temperature range (possibly even lower).  When primary fermentation subsides, slowly ramp to the desired temperature.

Are there any exceptions (or yeasts that are an exception) to this rule?

That's what they say.  Who "they" are and whether "they" are right, who the hell knows.  We all just blindly do what the Pope tells us to do I guess.  It sure does seem to work well for everyone though, including me.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: klickitat jim on April 01, 2016, 06:19:02 AM
Always start at the low end of the recommended yeast temperature range (possibly even lower).  When primary fermentation subsides, slowly ramp to the desired temperature.

Are there any exceptions (or yeasts that are an exception) to this rule?
Depends.

I would not pitch warmer than my target temp, then chill. I never chill until the beer is done.

What temp depends on what beer and what you want. An American Pale Ale might benefit from being fermented toward the low end of the recommendations. But an English Pale Ale might not. A higher gravity beer might benefit from starting toward the cool end too.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: BurghBeezer on April 01, 2016, 02:43:18 PM
In the 'Have You Seen Ester?' article on experimental brewing:
http://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/have-you-seen-ester

Saccharomyces wrote the following in response to a comment:
Quote
One thing that I do differently than is the current norm is that I tend to pitch warm (20C/68F to 22C/73F), and then allow the batch to slowly drop down to fermentation temperature of 18C/65F (fermentation temperature, not ambient temperature). A culture is not going to express as much of its individual character if one is pitching cold and allowing the batch to warm up to fermentation temperature. That strategy is for achieving the lowest possible yeast contribution from a yeast strain. It works great for American-style ales; however, in my humble opinion, it is not the not the right approach for fruity ales.

Have never tried this, but I'm going to experiment with this on lower alcohol brews with English yeasts.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: denny on April 01, 2016, 02:44:08 PM
Not that I've found so far for my own tastes.  I have heard of people who start saison or Belgian styles high, but I don't care the results of doing that.

I've only done one hot fermentation and it did really help to get 3724 to finish.  I don;t detect anything unpleasant in the beer.

What is your 3724 protocol?  I've had too many stuck to mess around with this yeast.  I have not tried open ferm but I'm also using better bottles so I dont know how much benefit I'll get.

Just like always..start cool, finish warm.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: denny on April 01, 2016, 02:45:20 PM
Always start at the low end of the recommended yeast temperature range (possibly even lower).  When primary fermentation subsides, slowly ramp to the desired temperature.

Are there any exceptions (or yeasts that are an exception) to this rule?

That's what they say.  Who "they" are and whether "they" are right, who the hell knows.  We all just blindly do what the Pope tells us to do I guess.  It sure does seem to work well for everyone though, including me.

"They" is "us".
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 01, 2016, 02:50:05 PM
Just like always..start cool, finish warm.

You don't find 3724 to require more attention?

The 2nd to last time I used it I went with my typical cool to warm and brought it up higher than I usually go to finish.  I still didn't have it finish where I wanted/hoped.  Nor where it finished when fermented warm throughout.

But, again, I haven't tried it without an airlock.  Must do that soon.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: denny on April 01, 2016, 03:21:42 PM
Just like always..start cool, finish warm.

You don't find 3724 to require more attention?

The 2nd to last time I used it I went with my typical cool to warm and brought it up higher than I usually go to finish.  I still didn't have it finish where I wanted/hoped.  Nor where it finished when fermented warm throughout.

But, again, I haven't tried it without an airlock.  Must do that soon.

It's been quite a while but I don't recall any problems at all and my notes don't indicate any issues.  I didn't do an open fermentation since I wasn't aware of that advantage when I used it.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: brewinhard on April 01, 2016, 05:52:19 PM
In the 'Have You Seen Ester?' article on experimental brewing:
http://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/have-you-seen-ester

Saccharomyces wrote the following in response to a comment:
Quote
One thing that I do differently than is the current norm is that I tend to pitch warm (20C/68F to 22C/73F), and then allow the batch to slowly drop down to fermentation temperature of 18C/65F (fermentation temperature, not ambient temperature). A culture is not going to express as much of its individual character if one is pitching cold and allowing the batch to warm up to fermentation temperature. That strategy is for achieving the lowest possible yeast contribution from a yeast strain. It works great for American-style ales; however, in my humble opinion, it is not the not the right approach for fruity ales.

Have never tried this, but I'm going to experiment with this on lower alcohol brews with English yeasts.

Yes, I was going to reference this as well from Mark.  I plan on trying this next with my Thames River Valley II strain and a simple bitter.  Pitch around 72-73F and let slowly cool during the lag time to 66-68F for primary fermentation, then most likely warm up a tad to clean up after itself.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: klickitat jim on April 01, 2016, 08:35:45 PM
Last year with 3724 I used the 68F "free rise" to pretty hot technique, but not open, and I was still using decanted quiescent yeast then. They were standard strength. After 6 weeks it was still 1.010 so I pitched brett L. Finished at 1.003.

This year, I'm going table strength, pitching active starter, using foil, and not going above 72 (like normal ales) and being more patient. We shall see...
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: dilluh98 on April 01, 2016, 08:58:42 PM
Last year with 3724 I used the 68F "free rise" to pretty hot technique, but not open, and I was still using decanted quiescent yeast then. They were standard strength. After 6 weeks it was still 1.010 so I pitched brett L. Finished at 1.003.

This year, I'm going table strength, pitching active starter, using foil, and not going above 72 (like normal ales) and being more patient. We shall see...

I think you will like the results of the latter approach. Perhaps I did something wrong but the two times I fermented a saison warm/hot from the get-go, I did not like the results. Dry? Yes. Balanced/Subtle? Not even close.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 02, 2016, 12:49:44 AM
I'll add that, of the times I fermented 3724 at high temps from the get go, one of those times was crazy good, the others pretty good but not as much so. Then I went to holding 65F for 3 days, then ramping up to 90 F. Made a couple really good beers, some pretty good beers for the rest. Now I'm holding 65F for 3 days then slow ramping to 72-78 ish (depending on what I'm doing). Don't forget the 3724 option of foil over the airlock for 4 days, then pitching a packet of Belle (or some 3711) to finish the job. Don't need to go over 75F if you do this.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: Philbrew on April 02, 2016, 03:38:20 AM
I'll add that, of the times I fermented 3724 at high temps from the get go, one of those times was crazy good, the others pretty good but not as much so. Then I went to holding 65F for 3 days, then ramping up to 90 F. Made a couple really good beers, some pretty good beers for the rest. Now I'm holding 65F for 3 days then slow ramping to 72-78 ish (depending on what I'm doing). Don't forget the 3724 option of foil over the airlock for 4 days, then pitching a packet of Belle (or some 3711) to finish the job. Don't need to go over 75F if you do this.
Is there a dry version of 3724?
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 02, 2016, 03:42:49 AM
I'll add that, of the times I fermented 3724 at high temps from the get go, one of those times was crazy good, the others pretty good but not as much so. Then I went to holding 65F for 3 days, then ramping up to 90 F. Made a couple really good beers, some pretty good beers for the rest. Now I'm holding 65F for 3 days then slow ramping to 72-78 ish (depending on what I'm doing). Don't forget the 3724 option of foil over the airlock for 4 days, then pitching a packet of Belle (or some 3711) to finish the job. Don't need to go over 75F if you do this.
Is there a dry version of 3724?



Nope, sorry.
Title: Re: Always start low and go high?
Post by: reverseapachemaster on April 02, 2016, 03:38:49 PM
I always start low and go high although the range of low and high are different for different yeast. I pitch saison at 75F and raise to 85F within a day. Two or three days after fermentation ends I let it cool down to ambient to clean up. It doesn't need to sit at artificially warm temperatures to do that.