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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Nick_D on April 13, 2016, 01:28:09 pm

Title: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Nick_D on April 13, 2016, 01:28:09 pm
So, I've brewed a Helles. All grain 98% pilsner malt with 2% carahell, WLP833 yeast. Currently at 1.014, needs to get to 1.010 - 1.011. I was attempting to follow the traditional 'cold fermentation with conventional storage fermentation schedule, as outlined on Kai's site http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers) (See diagram A)

The story/stats: so far.

- 4 gallon batch
-1.052 OG  (13.1 brix, uncorrected) , 12.86 °P
- estimated 289 billion yeast cells pitched (stepped up starter) at 43.7 F into oxygenated wort (@ 1 minute at 1 liter/min flow rate)
-Fast ferment test revealed FG 1.010-1.011, 2.84 °P (6.2 brix uncorrected) tested with both hydrometer, and calibrated refractometer (correction factor of 1.019)
-fermentation allowed to free rise to 48.2. Krausen and vigorous fermentation achieved within 24hrs.
-Fermentation @ 48.2 for 5 days, then temperature dropped by 9F each day until reaching 41 F  (i.e 48.2 > 47.3 > 46.4 etc). SG at 41 F was 1.013 , 3.33 °P (6.8 brix uncorrected)
- Racked to secondary keg.
- Added Kruasen made from saved wort (1.6 quarts/0.4 gallons)
-continued to drop temp by 9 F per day, until reaching 33 F. This is where I screwed up. Apparently the rate of temp decrease needs to be dramatically slowed once past 37.5 (according to Narziss). I believe I put the yeast to sleep by chilling too fast, and hence the stalled activity.
- In an effort to fix the situation, I allowed the temp to rise back to 48.2, and krausened with a further 0.6 gallons, made from DME. However in hindsight, I definitely overpitched into this krausen, and thus it didn't culture the new, vigorous yeast it should have. Lag time to high krausen in the batch of krausen was less than 12 hours.
-pitched krausen, which had totally flocculated in the secondary within a couple of days, with no change of gravity (now at 1.014 from the two doses of krausen).
- After leaving it for 5 or so days, with no change in gravity, I roused the yeast by racking to a new keg, and swirling the first one to pick up some yeast and raised the temp to 51 F. Again, no change in gravity after 2 days.

So, with all that being said. What would anyone recommend I do? Allow to rise to 65 F or so, and leave there till (hopefully) full attenuation, then drop back down to lagering temps, abandoning the traditional cold lager fermentation schedule? Should I make a fresh starter, and pitch only the yeast, and allow to rise in temp?

Sorry for the long post, but I've tried to put as much info in, to save people having to ask for those details.

Thank you in advance!
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: brewinhard on April 13, 2016, 01:56:54 pm
So, I've brewed a Helles. All grain 98% pilsner malt with 2% carahell, WLP833 yeast. Currently at 1.014, needs to get to 1.010 - 1.011. I was attempting to follow the traditional 'cold fermentation with conventional storage fermentation schedule, as outlined on Kai's site http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers) (See diagram A)

The story/stats: so far.

- 4 gallon batch
-1.052 OG  (13.1 brix, uncorrected) , 12.86 °P
- estimated 289 billion yeast cells pitched (stepped up starter) at 43.7 F into oxygenated wort (@ 1 minute at 1 liter/min flow rate)
-Fast ferment test revealed FG 1.010-1.011, 2.84 °P (6.2 brix uncorrected) tested with both hydrometer, and calibrated refractometer (correction factor of 1.019)
-fermentation allowed to free rise to 48.2. Krausen and vigorous fermentation achieved within 24hrs.
-Fermentation @ 48.2 for 5 days, then temperature dropped by 9F each day until reaching 41 F  (i.e 48.2 > 47.3 > 46.4 etc). SG at 41 F was 1.013 , 3.33 °P (6.8 brix uncorrected)
- Racked to secondary keg.
- Added Kruasen made from saved wort (1.6 quarts/0.4 gallons)
-continued to drop temp by 9 F per day, until reaching 33 F. This is where I screwed up. Apparently the rate of temp decrease needs to be dramatically slowed once past 37.5 (according to Narziss). I believe I put the yeast to sleep by chilling too fast, and hence the stalled activity.
- In an effort to fix the situation, I allowed the temp to rise back to 48.2, and krausened with a further 0.6 gallons, made from DME. However in hindsight, I definitely overpitched into this krausen, and thus it didn't culture the new, vigorous yeast it should have. Lag time to high krausen in the batch of krausen was less than 12 hours.
-pitched krausen, which had totally flocculated in the secondary within a couple of days, with no change of gravity (now at 1.014 from the two doses of krausen).
- After leaving it for 5 or so days, with no change in gravity, I roused the yeast by racking to a new keg, and swirling the first one to pick up some yeast and raised the temp to 51 F. Again, no change in gravity after 2 days.

So, with all that being said. What would anyone recommend I do? Allow to rise to 65 F or so, and leave there till (hopefully) full attenuation, then drop back down to lagering temps, abandoning the traditional cold lager fermentation schedule? Should I make a fresh starter, and pitch only the yeast, and allow to rise in temp?

Sorry for the long post, but I've tried to put as much info in, to save people having to ask for those details.

Thank you in advance!

A couple of issues I see here. First, it seems that you rushed the fermentation schedule a bit. You started to cold crash the beer after only 5 days of primary fermentation.  This will stall some strains (or at very least slow them down).  Usually at day 5 on an average gravity lager is when I am bumping up my temps for two reasons

-1. a proper diacetyl rest and 2. keeping the yeast active to finish fermenting the wort.

I usually let my lagers it around 68F for at least one full week prior to packaging.  This gives the yeast enough time to condition the beer and fully attenuate. Also I believe krausening is typically done at warmer temps to promote healthy yeast activity and to allow for the yeast to condition the beer properly. 

With that being said, you have two options.

1.  Let it be, carb it up and drink it.  At 1.014 FG, it is not that high and will still taste delicious.  I think its pretty hard even for a trained judge to taste the difference between a 1.014 FG and a 1.011 FG. 

2.  Let the keg warm up to room temps (70F) and let it sit for another 10 days or so in hopes that the yeast will become active and finish fermenting those final points. Be patient with this.

Good luck and let us know what you decide on doing.

Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: majorvices on April 13, 2016, 02:01:51 pm
Sounds like you were trying traditional German lager technique. Personally, I feel if it tastes good you did a pretty good job. How does it taste? If it tastes good I wouldn't worry about the numbers.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: beersk on April 13, 2016, 07:14:39 pm
It was at 1.013 at 41F? That means it should be more like 1.011-1.012 at 68F. It reads higher when it's colder. Suggestion for the future - aerate longer than a minute, give it 2 minutes at least. Sounds like you did everything else fine. You didn't mention your mash profile though. Do a step mash if you didn't; try 60 minutes at 145F, step to 162F for another 60 minutes.

From what I've read, the traditional cold fermentation schedule can be tricky, you just have to make sure to have all the right variables in place for it to not stall out on you.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 14, 2016, 06:38:10 am
It was at 1.013 at 41F? That means it should be more like 1.011-1.012 at 68F. It reads higher when it's colder. Suggestion for the future - aerate longer than a minute, give it 2 minutes at least. Sounds like you did everything else fine. You didn't mention your mash profile though. Do a step mash if you didn't; try 60 minutes at 145F, step to 162F for another 60 minutes.

From what I've read, the traditional cold fermentation schedule can be tricky, you just have to make sure to have all the right variables in place for it to not stall out on you.
I'm brewing my Helles and a Dunkel this weekend and for kicks I think I'll try your 60 @ 145 60 @162 just for a look see. My only stab at a step included a protein rest.

The Helles is a solid 40pt beer with single infusion, but I'd go the extra effort every time if it bumped it to 45
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: majorvices on April 14, 2016, 10:29:54 am
It was at 1.013 at 41F? That means it should be more like 1.011-1.012 at 68F. It reads higher when it's colder.

Bingo - I missed that. Your hydrometer will have a calibration chart that you need to use according to temp. If you are using a tight ranged la thermometer, for instance, it could be off many points at cooler or warmer temps. Sounds like you are probably right in your range after all.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: beersk on April 14, 2016, 01:15:16 pm
It was at 1.013 at 41F? That means it should be more like 1.011-1.012 at 68F. It reads higher when it's colder. Suggestion for the future - aerate longer than a minute, give it 2 minutes at least. Sounds like you did everything else fine. You didn't mention your mash profile though. Do a step mash if you didn't; try 60 minutes at 145F, step to 162F for another 60 minutes.

From what I've read, the traditional cold fermentation schedule can be tricky, you just have to make sure to have all the right variables in place for it to not stall out on you.
I'm brewing my Helles and a Dunkel this weekend and for kicks I think I'll try your 60 @ 145 60 @162 just for a look see. My only stab at a step included a protein rest.

The Helles is a solid 40pt beer with single infusion, but I'd go the extra effort every time if it bumped it to 45
Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. I like what it does for the beer and I don't mind spending the extra time. Let us know what you think.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: zwiller on April 14, 2016, 02:50:40 pm
I also think your fine.  That said, seems like you dropped temps a bit more aggressively than I recall.  I thought it was like a 2-3F than 9F.  In any event, I think the traditional cool method is antiquated but by all means, triple decoct using undermodified malt and lager all summer if you are into it.  Heck, dig a system of caverns under your basement while you're at it  ;D

2 hour mashes?!  I am trying to cram the entire brew into 2 hours...  Jesse, did you try shorter rests and found that you prefer then longer?  I am pretty happy with my uber hochkuz (15m) but I plan to try "a REAL LONG rest" of 30m :o to see if I see improvement. 
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: The Beerery on April 14, 2016, 03:27:15 pm
Do a step mash if you didn't; try 60 minutes at 145F, step to 162F for another 60 minutes.

I can't go anywhere without seeing this now. Beta is only active for a max of 30 minutes ;)
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: The Beerery on April 14, 2016, 03:33:09 pm
I also think your fine.  That said, seems like you dropped temps a bit more aggressively than I recall.  I thought it was like a 2-3F than 9F.  In any event, I think the traditional cool method is antiquated but by all means, triple decoct using undermodified malt and lager all summer if you are into it.  Heck, dig a system of caverns under your basement while you're at it  ;D

2 hour mashes?!  I am trying to cram the entire brew into 2 hours...  Jesse, did you try shorter rests and found that you prefer then longer?  I am pretty happy with my uber hochkuz (15m) but I plan to try "a REAL LONG rest" of 30m :o to see if I see improvement.

The rule is 1c.

Traditional cool is FAR from antiquated. INFACT! The accelerated warm that is spoken as gospel is actually only supposed to ever be used in CCV's where you are fermenting under pressure, which suppresses the ester formation.  ;)

I can assure you the idea of short changing a brewday, is not going to get you where you need to be in regards to German lagers. There is no point in even doing an Alpha rest if its isn't above 71ish, and for at least 60 minutes. So maybe I just helped you shave more time! :)
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: denny on April 14, 2016, 03:35:18 pm
I also think your fine.  That said, seems like you dropped temps a bit more aggressively than I recall.  I thought it was like a 2-3F than 9F.  In any event, I think the traditional cool method is antiquated but by all means, triple decoct using undermodified malt and lager all summer if you are into it.  Heck, dig a system of caverns under your basement while you're at it  ;D

2 hour mashes?!  I am trying to cram the entire brew into 2 hours...  Jesse, did you try shorter rests and found that you prefer then longer?  I am pretty happy with my uber hochkuz (15m) but I plan to try "a REAL LONG rest" of 30m :o to see if I see improvement.

The rule is 1c.

Traditional cool is FAR from antiquated. INFACT! The accelerated warm that is spoken as gospel is actually only supposed to ever be used in CCV's where you are fermenting under pressure, which suppresses the ester formation.  ;)

I can assure you the idea of short changing a brewday, is not going to get you where you need to be in regards to German lagers. There is no point in even doing an Alpha rest if its isn't above 71ish, and for at least 60 minutes. So maybe I just helped you shave more time! :)

Bryan, you've never tried any of my lagers where I do the accelerated fermentation and and single step mash.  How do you know they're missing anything?  And we've never tried yours....hell, you won't even tell us what you're doing so we can try it ourselves.  I fond it hard to take your advice seriously.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: The Beerery on April 14, 2016, 03:43:55 pm
I also think your fine.  That said, seems like you dropped temps a bit more aggressively than I recall.  I thought it was like a 2-3F than 9F.  In any event, I think the traditional cool method is antiquated but by all means, triple decoct using undermodified malt and lager all summer if you are into it.  Heck, dig a system of caverns under your basement while you're at it  ;D

2 hour mashes?!  I am trying to cram the entire brew into 2 hours...  Jesse, did you try shorter rests and found that you prefer then longer?  I am pretty happy with my uber hochkuz (15m) but I plan to try "a REAL LONG rest" of 30m :o to see if I see improvement.

The rule is 1c.

Traditional cool is FAR from antiquated. INFACT! The accelerated warm that is spoken as gospel is actually only supposed to ever be used in CCV's where you are fermenting under pressure, which suppresses the ester formation.  ;)

I can assure you the idea of short changing a brewday, is not going to get you where you need to be in regards to German lagers. There is no point in even doing an Alpha rest if its isn't above 71ish, and for at least 60 minutes. So maybe I just helped you shave more time! :)

Bryan, you've never tried any of my lagers where I do the accelerated fermentation and and single step mash.  How do you know they're missing anything?  And we've never tried yours....hell, you won't even tell us what you're doing so we can try it ourselves.  I fond it hard to take your advice seriously.

We must be at an impasse then, cause I feel the same about yours!

However, what you quoted has no insinuation that I was speaking about your beer. I just stated facts about warm fermentation, and temperature ramps... They are not my facts, but German brewing facts. I urge you to pick up a German brewing textbook and fact check it! I could very well be wrong ;)

Edit: Denny, it's funny you bring up what I am doing to prove to you. Actually the answer to the million dollar "question" came up eons ago on HBD, and I'll be damned if it wasn't solved then as well! I may have saw your name there a few times as well ;)
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: denny on April 14, 2016, 03:47:49 pm
We must be at an impasse then, cause I feel the same about yours!

However, what you quoted has no insinuation that I was speaking about your beer. I just stated facts about warm fermentation, and temperature ramps... They are not my facts, but German brewing facts. I urge you to pick up a German brewing textbook and fact check it! I could very well be wrong ;)

Oh, I have no doubt that the what you quoted is an accurate quote.  What I'm getting at is that quote has no relevance to my brewing.  I really don't care what dead Germans say if my own tastebuds and experience tell me something different. 
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: The Beerery on April 14, 2016, 03:49:03 pm
We must be at an impasse then, cause I feel the same about yours!

However, what you quoted has no insinuation that I was speaking about your beer. I just stated facts about warm fermentation, and temperature ramps... They are not my facts, but German brewing facts. I urge you to pick up a German brewing textbook and fact check it! I could very well be wrong ;)

Oh, I have no doubt that the what you quoted is an accurate quote.  What I'm getting at is that quote has no relevance to my brewing.  I really don't care what dead Germans say if my own tastebuds and experience tell me something different.

Sadly, they are still alive... Trust you me though, if you can't taste it I totally agree with you. There is no point.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: zwiller on April 14, 2016, 07:36:51 pm
I also think your fine.  That said, seems like you dropped temps a bit more aggressively than I recall.  I thought it was like a 2-3F than 9F.  In any event, I think the traditional cool method is antiquated but by all means, triple decoct using undermodified malt and lager all summer if you are into it.  Heck, dig a system of caverns under your basement while you're at it  ;D

2 hour mashes?!  I am trying to cram the entire brew into 2 hours...  Jesse, did you try shorter rests and found that you prefer then longer?  I am pretty happy with my uber hochkuz (15m) but I plan to try "a REAL LONG rest" of 30m :o to see if I see improvement.

The rule is 1c.

Traditional cool is FAR from antiquated. INFACT! The accelerated warm that is spoken as gospel is actually only supposed to ever be used in CCV's where you are fermenting under pressure, which suppresses the ester formation.  ;)

I can assure you the idea of short changing a brewday, is not going to get you where you need to be in regards to German lagers. There is no point in even doing an Alpha rest if its isn't above 71ish, and for at least 60 minutes. So maybe I just helped you shave more time! :)

Isn't alpha conversion well documented to occur faster than beta?   
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: narvin on April 14, 2016, 08:05:22 pm
We must be at an impasse then, cause I feel the same about yours!

However, what you quoted has no insinuation that I was speaking about your beer. I just stated facts about warm fermentation, and temperature ramps... They are not my facts, but German brewing facts. I urge you to pick up a German brewing textbook and fact check it! I could very well be wrong ;)

Edit: Denny, it's funny you bring up what I am doing to prove to you. Actually the answer to the million dollar "question" came up eons ago on HBD, and I'll be damned if it wasn't solved then as well! I may have saw your name there a few times as well ;)

Are you actually German?  I really can't tell if you're like the girl who goes to England for 3 months and comes back with an affectation, or just died hard Deutch.

Yes, you read the scientific literature, that's fantastic.  I can show you 10 studies that, in isolation, seem to come to 10 different conclusions, but the taste of a beer is a complex beast.  There's a lot to learn from brewing texts, but it's very hard to make a single change AND be able categorically show that it's the necessary AND sufficient condition to get a specific flavor in the output.

It's also cute how you think that anyone who doesn't buy what you're selling also has never identified the unique and delicious flavors of a continental beer.  Again, I can't tell if you're just full of German patriotism, or just kind of sheltered.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: beersk on April 14, 2016, 08:37:25 pm
Do a step mash if you didn't; try 60 minutes at 145F, step to 162F for another 60 minutes.

I can't go anywhere without seeing this now. Beta is only active for a max of 30 minutes ;)
Don't wink at me dude. You were pushing for 60 minutes for both rests not more than a month ago, before you kicked all of us off your forum. You still don't know anything more than we do, you just purport that you do. So if you're going to be this way, just keep to yourself, otherwise join the discussion in a friendly AND helpful manner. Get rid of the smugness. You're not making any friends.

Sorry if this is going to get this thread closed, OP, but this is getting ridiculous.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: narvin on April 14, 2016, 08:42:56 pm
Do a step mash if you didn't; try 60 minutes at 145F, step to 162F for another 60 minutes.

I can't go anywhere without seeing this now. Beta is only active for a max of 30 minutes ;)
Don't wink at me dude. You were pushing for 60 minutes for both rests not more than a month ago, before you kicked all of us off your forum. You still don't know anything more than we do, you just purport that you do. So if you're going to be this way, just keep to yourself, otherwise join the discussion in a friendly AND helpful manner. Get rid of the smugness. You're not making any friends.

Sorry if this is going to get this thread closed, OP, but this is getting ridiculous.

I really don't think you're the one who derailed the thread.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Stevie on April 14, 2016, 08:58:17 pm
Namaste bros, namaste.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: beersk on April 14, 2016, 09:24:12 pm
Namaste bros, namaste.
I know, I'm namaste now. I over reacted and I'm sorry. But still...I don't like the negativity and the judgment. It needs to be educational and friendly not secretive and smug.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 14, 2016, 09:57:25 pm
.I don't like the negativity and the judgment. It needs to be educational and friendly not secretive and smug.


Yep. Denny gets a lot of things right and this is one of them - beer and homebrewing are social and fun, and if it's not for you, then you're doing it wrong. Never fails to amaze me the mindset of a troll.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 14, 2016, 11:01:17 pm
Ignore it rather than feed it
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: The Beerery on April 14, 2016, 11:41:09 pm
You guys make me laugh.

Beersk, if I don't know anything why did you follow my advice ;)   I see you have some hurt feelings you didn't make the cut. But I think it's quite obvious you know why. ;)

Narvin, why you get so angry over beer!  Isn't that the opposite of what you preach. I have zero anger in what I say. You all are fueled with rage. Ironic isn't. It's like the world is flat all over again!

It's that same closed mindedness that will never allow you to reach what you seek.

For the record it's not some secret ingredient, or some mash, or some fermentation.  It's as a simple as breathing... But it's overlooked by all but the best  8)

I also fail to see how l derailed the thread. That was one of your own. I gave answers to questions.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Stevie on April 14, 2016, 11:57:25 pm
Is it as simple as one enjoying the smell of ones own farts?

Seriously, being a dick and rubbing in that somebody wasn't invited to your private forum isn't doing anybody any good.

I feel bad for the OP. This garbage tends to happen on posts by new members.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: majorvices on April 15, 2016, 02:07:47 am
I also think your fine.  That said, seems like you dropped temps a bit more aggressively than I recall.  I thought it was like a 2-3F than 9F.  In any event, I think the traditional cool method is antiquated but by all means, triple decoct using undermodified malt and lager all summer if you are into it.  Heck, dig a system of caverns under your basement while you're at it  ;D

2 hour mashes?!  I am trying to cram the entire brew into 2 hours...  Jesse, did you try shorter rests and found that you prefer then longer?  I am pretty happy with my uber hochkuz (15m) but I plan to try "a REAL LONG rest" of 30m :o to see if I see improvement.

The rule is 1c.

Traditional cool is FAR from antiquated. INFACT! The accelerated warm that is spoken as gospel is actually only supposed to ever be used in CCV's where you are fermenting under pressure, which suppresses the ester formation.  ;)

I can assure you the idea of short changing a brewday, is not going to get you where you need to be in regards to German lagers. There is no point in even doing an Alpha rest if its isn't above 71ish, and for at least 60 minutes. So maybe I just helped you shave more time! :)

Bryan, you've never tried any of my lagers where I do the accelerated fermentation and and single step mash.  How do you know they're missing anything?  And we've never tried yours....hell, you won't even tell us what you're doing so we can try it ourselves.  I fond it hard to take your advice seriously.

We must be at an impasse then, cause I feel the same about yours!

However, what you quoted has no insinuation that I was speaking about your beer. I just stated facts about warm fermentation, and temperature ramps... They are not my facts, but German brewing facts. I urge you to pick up a German brewing textbook and fact check it! I could very well be wrong ;)

Edit: Denny, it's funny you bring up what I am doing to prove to you. Actually the answer to the million dollar "question" came up eons ago on HBD, and I'll be damned if it wasn't solved then as well! I may have saw your name there a few times as well ;)

Bryan, you have become so full of yourself I can't take you serious any longer. That is sad because I used to have some respect for you as a brewer. You should go back to your forum and stay there. You don't have anything to offer here since you won't share anything but gloating on how fncking smart you are. You have simply become a troll. If you think you sound smarter than everyone else, you are delusional.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 15, 2016, 03:29:30 am


I also fail to see how l derailed the thread. That was one of your own. I gave answers to questions.

You're doing it wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Iliff Ave on April 15, 2016, 04:26:54 am
Seems like someone associated with an old German "club". If your not like me you are inferior...
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Stevie on April 15, 2016, 04:37:37 am
Seems like someone associated with an old German "club". If your not like me you are inferior...
Too far bro.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: beersk on April 15, 2016, 12:50:03 pm
You guys make me laugh.

Beersk, if I don't know anything why did you follow my advice ;)   I see you have some hurt feelings you didn't make the cut. But I think it's quite obvious you know why. ;)

Narvin, why you get so angry over beer!  Isn't that the opposite of what you preach. I have zero anger in what I say. You all are fueled with rage. Ironic isn't. It's like the world is flat all over again!

It's that same closed mindedness that will never allow you to reach what you seek.

For the record it's not some secret ingredient, or some mash, or some fermentation.  It's as a simple as breathing... But it's overlooked by all but the best  8)

I also fail to see how l derailed the thread. That was one of your own. I gave answers to questions.
You're simply repeating what Kai said, so I'm not really following YOUR advice, so much as his via you.

Go away, please. You aren't helping your cause.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Steve Ruch on April 15, 2016, 09:51:37 pm
So, I've brewed a Helles. All grain 98% pilsner malt with 2% carahell, WLP833 yeast. Currently at 1.014, needs to get to 1.010 - 1.011.
 So, with all that being said. What would anyone recommend I do? .
Thank you in advance!

Throw in some Wyeast 1764 and fake it :), but don't tell anyone on that exclusive forum as it might upset their apple cart.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: narvin on April 16, 2016, 12:44:16 am
You guys make me laugh.

Beersk, if I don't know anything why did you follow my advice ;)   I see you have some hurt feelings you didn't make the cut. But I think it's quite obvious you know why. ;)

Narvin, why you get so angry over beer!  Isn't that the opposite of what you preach. I have zero anger in what I say. You all are fueled with rage. Ironic isn't. It's like the world is flat all over again!

It's that same closed mindedness that will never allow you to reach what you seek.

For the record it's not some secret ingredient, or some mash, or some fermentation.  It's as a simple as breathing... But it's overlooked by all but the best  8)

This dialog is George Lucas awful. 
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: RPIScotty on April 16, 2016, 01:15:28 am
Reading Kai has less baggage associated with it. Mr. Beerery has gone from eager contributor to spurned "Genius" to hapless clown troll in less time than my 3 year old has been on earth.

We suffer this fool because this isn't the type of forum that closes its doors to people we don't like.

Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: majorvices on April 16, 2016, 02:46:15 am
Reading Kai has less baggage associated with it. Mr. Beerery has gone from eager contributor to spurned "Genius" to hapless clown troll in less time than my 3 year old has been on earth.

We suffer this fool because this isn't the type of forum that closes its doors to people we don't like.

We aren't suffering any fool. Though the argument could be made that we are dealing with one.  This has become absurd. Where does it end? We are a forum about homebrewing. Not ego. What has gone down here is so ridiculous I can not comprehend. I have known Bryan on line for probably 10-15 years. He has always had something positive to contribute. Suddenly he has become a JEDI fnCING NINJA brewer and everyone else is a ********** bloody idiot. SOOOOOO fncking tired of this. BRYAN - go to the hole you created and make your world class FNckomg beer. If you have something you want to share with the brotherhood of brewers .... who are here waiting to share and be shared with. JOIN THE FNCK IN! OTHER WISE! Go the hell away! You offer nothing.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 16, 2016, 03:02:54 am
Reading Kai has less baggage associated with it. Mr. Beerery has gone from eager contributor to spurned "Genius" to hapless clown troll in less time than my 3 year old has been on earth.

We suffer this fool because this isn't the type of forum that closes its doors to people we don't like.

We aren't suffering any fool. Though the argument could be made that we are dealing with one.  This has become absurd. Where does it end? We are a forum about homebrewing. Not ego. What has gone down here is so ridiculous I can not comprehend. I have known Bryan on line for probably 10-15 years. He has always had something positive to contribute. Suddenly he has become a JEDI fnCING NINJA brewer and everyone else is a ********** bloody idiot. SOOOOOO fncking tired of this. BRYAN - go to the hole you created and make your world class FNckomg beer. If you have something you want to share with the brotherhood of brewers .... who are here waiting to share and be shared with. JOIN THE FNCK IN! OTHER WISE! Go the hell away! You offer nothing.


Like it came out of my head, verbatim.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: chumley on April 16, 2016, 03:51:24 am
Wow.  I just read this, hoping to get some good tips on stuck lagers.

Instead....there may be good information here, but reading it makes me cringe. This thread is so nasty.

Denny always told us HBD B&Vers that the AHA board was polite, no politics, but just because you don't talk politics, means you can just be outright rude to other posters, no matter how much you don't agree with them.

I expected better from here.

Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 16, 2016, 06:38:05 am
I still think, as far as a forum goes, ignoring things that rub you the wrong way is probably the best option. If a post is meant to cause anger, and people respond out of anger, then the poster won their little game.

Now, regarding step mashing, I tried the Hochkurtz step mash from Troester's website on two beers one day and got nothing out of it. But I'm not on a crusade to stop others from doing it. In fact I might try step mashing again.

Honestly, I dont hang out here to try to get anyone to do things my way. I have always tried to keep an open mind about suggested methods, and I have tried many, adopted several, rejected others as not working for me. If someone, who has not tried my beer, claims to know its wrong, claims to know the fix, but won't say what it is... whatever. Maybe he's right, but since I'll never know if he's right, I'm not going to waste any time being upset about it.

I'll say it again. Ignore it, dont feed it.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: mainebrewer on April 16, 2016, 09:39:58 am
I still think, as far as a forum goes, ignoring things that rub you the wrong way is probably the best option. If a post is meant to cause anger, and people respond out of anger, then the poster won their little game.

Now, regarding step mashing, I tried the Hochkurtz step mash from Troester's website on two beers one day and got nothing out of it. But I'm not on a crusade to stop others from doing it. In fact I might try step mashing again.

Honestly, I dont hang out here to try to get anyone to do things my way. I have always tried to keep an open mind about suggested methods, and I have tried many, adopted several, rejected others as not working for me. If someone, who has not tried my beer, claims to know its wrong, claims to know the fix, but won't say what it is... whatever. Maybe he's right, but since I'll never know if he's right, I'm not going to waste any time being upset about it.

I'll say it again. Ignore it, dont feed it.

+1
I hope the OP got his questions answered.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: majorvices on April 16, 2016, 11:15:06 am
I apologize. My reaction has been over the top, especially after rereading this thread. I probably over reacted based on previous threads. This place has always been a civil place where we share information and treat each other with respect and that should always be the policy.

However, I will say that the idea that someone is "doing it wrong" simply based on one set of parameters really gets under my skin. There are certainly many ways to do it wrong, but there are also many ways to do it right.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: RPIScotty on April 16, 2016, 12:06:32 pm
I apologize. My reaction has been over the top, especially after rereading this thread. I probably over reacted based on previous threads. This place has always been a civil place where we share information and treat each other with respect and that should always be the policy.

However, I will say that the idea that someone is "doing it wrong" simply based on one set of parameters really gets under my skin. There are certainly many ways to do it wrong, but there are also many ways to do it right.

I think what you said captures what we are all thinking and/or have said on the topic at one point or another. It's a frustrating one for sure, especially for some of the guys who have been on here for a while. I know I've only been on the forum for a short period of time and it has tested my patience on more than one occasion especially considering the fact that I'm a typically Unflappable character.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: pete b on April 16, 2016, 12:36:13 pm
I think the next time he or someone posts something that is inflammatory or condescending or otherwise unhelpful the post should be utterly and completely ignored. It's obvious that he had an absolute blast on this thread because some gave him exactly the fun he was looking for. He's obviously contemptuous of anyone who brews for fun and is here not to help brewers make better lagers but to taunt those who don't do it a certain way. Just pretend his posts are not there and go on helping each other brew beer. That's what makes this forum.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Phil_M on April 16, 2016, 01:05:03 pm
I think the next time he or someone posts something that is inflammatory or condescending or otherwise unhelpful the post should be utterly and completely ignored....Just pretend his posts are not there and go on helping each other brew beer. That's what makes this forum.

+1, this is exactly what I've been thinking about the whole situation.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 16, 2016, 01:59:14 pm
I think the next time he or someone posts something that is inflammatory or condescending or otherwise unhelpful the post should be utterly and completely ignored....Just pretend his posts are not there and go on helping each other brew beer. That's what makes this forum.

+1, this is exactly what I've been thinking about the whole situation.


I agree it's the best way to go. Some times I'm better at adhering to this than others. Evidently somebody trolling on this fine forum really aggravates me. But no arguments that ignoring is the best policy. I just don't like having to.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 16, 2016, 03:26:24 pm
I think the next time he or someone posts something that is inflammatory or condescending or otherwise unhelpful the post should be utterly and completely ignored....Just pretend his posts are not there and go on helping each other brew beer. That's what makes this forum.

+1, this is exactly what I've been thinking about the whole situation.


I agree it's the best way to go. Some times I'm better at adhering to this than others. Evidently somebody trolling on this fine forum really aggravates me. But no arguments that ignoring is the best policy. I just don't like having to.

I think we're all in the same place.  I try to ignore it, but the insufferable pomposity gets under my skin.

I'll try to stop responding.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 16, 2016, 09:25:46 pm
Pomposity is an off flavor that is similar to putting your foot in your mouth. The only cure is one ounce prevention mixed with a pound of humility
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: pete b on April 17, 2016, 01:31:16 am
Pomposity is an off flavor that is similar to putting your foot in your mouth. The only cure is one ounce prevention mixed with a pound of humility
I have to admit that I was tempted to use the phrase "ludicrous popinjay". That would have been pompous in and of itself. As would be the phrase " in and of itself" or being self referential to that itself. It's infinite.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 17, 2016, 02:08:12 am
For some reason the narrator voice from that old super heroes cartoon is stuck in my ears. "Meanwhile..."
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: narvin on April 17, 2016, 03:36:17 am
I'm sorry, I made a mistake and I need to apologize.  I spelled "dialogue" wrong.  I can't blame autocorrect, either.
 
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 17, 2016, 05:23:17 am
In fairness, if this guy Brian has been brewing and on these forums for all these years, I can see how he might have snapped and turned out this way. As cool as this forum is, there is a constant push back against anything new. Or against old ways that are different from the cool new accepted way. It can be a simple as a peice of tape showing volume increase in a starter, or a chunk of pvc with a gas-in connector on it. Or something insanely out there like not using a stir plate. The knee jerk reaction is almost always to tear it down rather than try it. I dont think most people mean anything by it. Its just habbit probably. So I could see some possibly legit reason why someone might say they know a trick but their not going to share it. It does get a little tiresome.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Stevie on April 17, 2016, 05:35:40 am
Did your feelings get hurt over the gas stick? I thought it was a resourceful idea, but whatever.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 17, 2016, 05:40:33 am
Feelings hurt? Am I your 12 year old sister? No dude, I didnt cry about it. If theres no one interested in my simple little problem fixes, thats cool by me. But it is an example of how we go after anything that doesn't fit out world.
Title: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Stevie on April 17, 2016, 05:49:43 am
Who went after it? I saw a couple of people offer alternate solutions but I didn't see anything that demonstrated "going after it." Maybe I missed something, but that thread is gone.

There will always be differing opinions, but it's a good thing. As long as people are cool and not dicks to each other, we can take it.

Again, poor Nick D. He asked a question and it turned into all sorts of bulls***.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 17, 2016, 06:01:35 am
I gave two other examples Steve. Do you know anyone here who has gotten wound up about starters without stirplates?
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Stevie on April 17, 2016, 06:05:24 am
Sure. The way that thread started and without the associated link it made it seem as if you were trashing stirplates. In my opinion both work.

As for the tape, I don't know if I remember that one.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 17, 2016, 06:23:37 am
No im talking about the guff Mark toleratted for like two months. My thread about the video was about the laundry list of wrong stuff on that AHA yeast video. The video was so bad it got taken down before I could get my post typed.

The tape thing was simple. With photos showing that if there's an increase in volume, probably its from yeast growth. That got slammed as not being possible, or it was gas bubbles, or some other thing.

My point is, this forum is not free of its issues. And this side debate is kind of proving the point.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Stevie on April 17, 2016, 06:29:06 am
The world isn't free of its issues. There are at least two dudes in my new club that I can't stand and I bet there are at least two dudes that can't stand me. People are people man.

At least we don't talk politics and religion.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: klickitat jim on April 17, 2016, 06:39:56 am
Ha! No kidding.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Nick_D on April 17, 2016, 12:23:53 pm
It was at 1.013 at 41F? That means it should be more like 1.011-1.012 at 68F. It reads higher when it's colder.

Bingo - I missed that. Your hydrometer will have a calibration chart that you need to use according to temp. If you are using a tight ranged la thermometer, for instance, it could be off many points at cooler or warmer temps. Sounds like you are probably right in your range after all.

OP here..... wow, things got out hand quickly! :o

The gravity reading was done with a refractometer (with alcohol correction), sample warmed to 20C. I mentioned the lower temperature, as a reference for how far the beer has fermented, vs how far I had lowered the temp, not in regards to the temp of the actual sample I measured. Sorry for the confusion.

The mash schedule was hochkurz double decoction with rests at 143 and 158.

I have had the beer sitting at 20 C (68 F) for a few days now, and it has dropped to 1.012, and seems to be working slowly still. It is still pretty 'green' so I'm hoping a little longer at this raised temp will clean it up a bit more (Including of course, a good months lagering also). How clean should I expect it to be pre lagering? No nasty esters or jet fusels, Just a bit rough, and a touch of diacetyl currently. The already subtle flavours of the beer are being obscured a bit at this point.

I am now torn as to which method to ferment with my next lagers. This beer was a trial beer to make mistakes on, so I can do some Oktoberfest beers for a party later in the year. A festbier, and Dunkel. I am really keen on succeeding at the traditional cold method, but this has left me lacking in confidence! Although I do know where I went wrong. Dropped temps too fast + probably slightly underpitched for this method. 

   
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: pete b on April 17, 2016, 12:52:43 pm
Nick, I think it's likely that this beer will come out fine. I recently made my first lager, in fact it's still layering and not quite ready yet but the difference between where it is now vs where you are now is quite pronounced. If there is just a bit of diacetyl and it tastes a bit rough that's not out of the ordinary it seems.
Btw this thread is an anomaly and the reason some are upset is because it's not the norm.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: RPIScotty on April 17, 2016, 12:53:19 pm
I would say use whichever method gives you the results you like.

As evidenced by this thread and others, you will get varying opinions, sometimes fierce ones, concerning lagers.

Do what works for you. If it tastes good to you and the method used worked for you then keep doing it.

Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: wobdee on April 17, 2016, 12:57:22 pm
In fairness, if this guy Brian has been brewing and on these forums for all these years, I can see how he might have snapped and turned out this way. As cool as this forum is, there is a constant push back against anything new. Or against old ways that are different from the cool new accepted way. It can be a simple as a peice of tape showing volume increase in a starter, or a chunk of pvc with a gas-in connector on it. Or something insanely out there like not using a stir plate. The knee jerk reaction is almost always to tear it down rather than try it. I dont think most people mean anything by it. Its just habbit probably. So I could see some possibly legit reason why someone might say they know a trick but their not going to share it. It does get a little tiresome.
Bingo! I think he just wants to see people break away from the ole boys homebrewing circle jerk once in awhile, do their own research from some real profesional brewing texts and give those things you learn a try. I can see how one can get frustrated after spending too much time on the forums. I know I need a break every now and then.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: wobdee on April 17, 2016, 01:01:38 pm
I haven't done the cold ferment yet but I will when I purchase a little more equipment. I know a few people that do and I think they use a little more yeast that what your using. Maybe up your yeast another 100 billion cells for the next one.
Title: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: tommymorris on April 17, 2016, 03:51:54 pm
It was at 1.013 at 41F? That means it should be more like 1.011-1.012 at 68F. It reads higher when it's colder.

Bingo - I missed that. Your hydrometer will have a calibration chart that you need to use according to temp. If you are using a tight ranged la thermometer, for instance, it could be off many points at cooler or warmer temps. Sounds like you are probably right in your range after all.

OP here..... wow, things got out hand quickly! :o

The gravity reading was done with a refractometer (with alcohol correction), sample warmed to 20C. I mentioned the lower temperature, as a reference for how far the beer has fermented, vs how far I had lowered the temp, not in regards to the temp of the actual sample I measured. Sorry for the confusion.

The mash schedule was hochkurz double decoction with rests at 143 and 158.

I have had the beer sitting at 20 C (68 F) for a few days now, and it has dropped to 1.012, and seems to be working slowly still. It is still pretty 'green' so I'm hoping a little longer at this raised temp will clean it up a bit more (Including of course, a good months lagering also). How clean should I expect it to be pre lagering? No nasty esters or jet fusels, Just a bit rough, and a touch of diacetyl currently. The already subtle flavours of the beer are being obscured a bit at this point.

I am now torn as to which method to ferment with my next lagers. This beer was a trial beer to make mistakes on, so I can do some Oktoberfest beers for a party later in the year. A festbier, and Dunkel. I am really keen on succeeding at the traditional cold method, but this has left me lacking in confidence! Although I do know where I went wrong. Dropped temps too fast + probably slightly underpitched for this method. 

 
Sounds like things are going well. If there are ANY diacetyl flavors present don't bottle or keg. It will only get worse. Leave the beer on the yeast cake and warm to 68-70F. Then swirl the beer gently to get some yeast back in suspension. That and about a week rest should get rid of the diacetyl.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 17, 2016, 04:56:12 pm
In fairness, if this guy Brian has been brewing and on these forums for all these years, I can see how he might have snapped and turned out this way. As cool as this forum is, there is a constant push back against anything new. Or against old ways that are different from the cool new accepted way. It can be a simple as a peice of tape showing volume increase in a starter, or a chunk of pvc with a gas-in connector on it. Or something insanely out there like not using a stir plate. The knee jerk reaction is almost always to tear it down rather than try it. I dont think most people mean anything by it. Its just habbit probably. So I could see some possibly legit reason why someone might say they know a trick but their not going to share it. It does get a little tiresome.
Bingo! I think he just wants to see people break away from the ole boys homebrewing circle jerk once in awhile, do their own research from some real profesional brewing texts and give those things you learn a try. I can see how one can get frustrated after spending too much time on the forums. I know I need a break every now and then.



I call total BS. Not everyone on this forum is the same. Many people, myself included, are constantly experimenting and tweaking to find better ways of doing things. I think the majority of lager brewers here would be extremely grateful for some honest, open sharing of info with Bryan, like is the case with most homebrewers. But we get condescending comments about our posts. Hell, even on posted beer pics ! All with complete refusal to share a shred of precious info that might help someone. Yes, people like Mark did meet with resistance from some stir plate users, no argument. But, know what? He has posted a wealth of technical info (some over my head) that has been extremely helpful to people, and I think basically everyone here is grateful to him. But the insinuation that Bryan is the way he is because of the people on this forum is complete, utter BS. Wow.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Phil_M on April 17, 2016, 05:14:22 pm
The issue I see here is that this one user keeps saying he has a better way, but won't share it.

There is no comparison to S. Cerivisiae's stirplate/starter post. That user provided the info to back up his statement. He didn't say "Hey, I've got a better starter method. You're going to have to figure out for yourself what it is though."
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 17, 2016, 05:15:44 pm
The issue I see here is that this one user keeps saying he has a better way, but won't share it.

There is no comparison to S. Cerivisiae's stirplate/starter post. That user provided the info to back up his statement. He didn't say "Hey, I've got a better starter method. You're going to have to figure out for yourself what it is though."


Yep, aside from the fact that both guys brew beer, I see no similarities.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Stevie on April 17, 2016, 05:18:11 pm
The issue I see here is that this one user keeps saying he has a better way, but won't share it.

There is no comparison to S. Cerivisiae's stirplate/starter post. That user provided the info to back up his statement. He didn't say "Hey, I've got a better starter method. You're going to have to figure out for yourself what it is though."
Jim's concern was the backlash received by Mark for being a proponent of witchcraft. I don't remember the thread anymore, but I say we burn him.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: jeffy on April 17, 2016, 06:00:37 pm
Back to Nick's original post and follow up, I am confused by the two additions of unfermented wort.  Were you trying to ferment this under pressure for carbonation?  Usually you do that after the fermentation is complete, possibly after lagering, not before.
It kind of negates the fast ferment test as well.  If you were expecting 1.010 to 1.011 and then added some extract, the estimate would change.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 17, 2016, 09:18:27 pm
Sometimes I am glad that I am on the raod, and don't get caught up in the flow.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: brewinhard on April 17, 2016, 11:08:00 pm
Sometimes I am glad that I am on the raod, and don't get caught up in the flow.

Agreed.  Ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 18, 2016, 01:43:52 am
Sorry to see that some folks push the forum into ludicrous directions.  Stuck lagers fermentation?  Probably a result of under pitching or mashing too high....

As to the knuckleheads - I refuse to be pushed into arguments where no one presents a proposition and yet asserts a subjective result.

Jim Morrison captured it when he sang the words - "If I swallow anything evil, stick a finger down my throat".
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: RPIScotty on April 18, 2016, 02:12:41 am
Jim Morrison captured it when he sang the words - "If I swallow anything evil, stick a finger down my throat".

I think you meant Roger Daltrey.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: 69franx on April 18, 2016, 03:56:10 am
"And if I shiver, please give me a blanket. Keep me warm, let me wear your coat" and yes I feel the Daltrey here,  not Jim
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 18, 2016, 04:34:32 pm
Oops - brain fart...Daltrey for sure, not lizard king.

Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Nick_D on April 19, 2016, 06:05:22 am
Back to Nick's original post and follow up, I am confused by the two additions of unfermented wort.  Were you trying to ferment this under pressure for carbonation?  Usually you do that after the fermentation is complete, possibly after lagering, not before.
It kind of negates the fast ferment test as well.  If you were expecting 1.010 to 1.011 and then added some extract, the estimate would change.

Hi Jeffy, I think you may be confusing the technique of adding unfermeted wort to achieve carbonation, with the tradtional method of Kräusening. The wort I added was vigorously fermenting. It's purpose was to help attenuation, and clean up the beer, not carbonate, although it is common to use a spunding valve to achieve both.
My first Kräusening effort used saved wort from the same batch, so it would in theory not change the fast ferment test results, as its mash profile was identical. The second batch was made from DME, as I had no more saved wort, and as you mentioned, this will impart a small change to the final gravity (DME being less fermentable). This probably accounts for the current gravity of 1.012, which seems to be it's final resting place. Still got it at 68 to further clean up before lagering.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 19, 2016, 06:09:59 pm
1.012 is pretty decently fermented out for most lagers, though if mashed low enough, some of mine are in the 1.008-1.010 range.  There's only so much the yeast can do with the wort given them, right?

It sounds like you did what you could and it likely will be a wonderful lager beer.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: Nick_D on April 21, 2016, 04:05:15 am
1.012 is pretty decently fermented out for most lagers, though if mashed low enough, some of mine are in the 1.008-1.010 range.  There's only so much the yeast can do with the wort given them, right?

It sounds like you did what you could and it likely will be a wonderful lager beer.

Thanks, yeah, 1.012 isn't totally out of style for a helles, and I understand they often intentionally stop slightly short of full attenuation for the style (like, maybe half a point).

I have been continuing my research into the traditional cold lager fermentation schedule, and I am confident to give it another try.

Here is a chart showing lager schedules. left to right is duration days, vertical scale is temperature in degrees Celsius (sorry, from Australia).  The black line is what I did, before I raised the temp to fix the attenuation issue. Red and green lines are fermentation schedules I found from various sources. The green is actually the schedule used by a German brewpub on their Pils.  It is easy to see I cooled far too quickly when approaching near freezing.

The beer is cleaning up very well, and I am almost ready to start lowering the temp again!

(http://s31.postimg.org/d8xcc2np7/fermentation_schedule.jpg)
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 21, 2016, 11:43:10 am
Those profiles have a time at 3C, which caught my attention. Last November I was in Germany and toured a low tech traditional brewery in Neiderbayern on a brew day. The lagering cellar was tunneled into the rocks, and was at 3C (year round according to the assistant Brewer). Just a coincidence? Maybe.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: beersk on April 22, 2016, 02:03:57 pm
Those profiles have a time at 3C, which caught my attention. Last November I was in Germany and toured a low tech traditional brewery in Neiderbayern on a brew day. The lagering cellar was tunneled into the rocks, and was at 3C (year round according to the assistant Brewer). Just a coincidence? Maybe.
It's interesting that lager yeast will still work at that low of a temperature. The schedule I've done on the last couple beers is 6 days at 48-50F, raise to 60F for a day, then drop 5F per day until it's down to 40F. Haven't tasted the final results yet, but would kind of like to get to a point where I can just keep it cold and not do the warmer rest and gradually lower from fermentation temp to cold temps.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: brewinhard on April 22, 2016, 02:08:04 pm
Those profiles have a time at 3C, which caught my attention. Last November I was in Germany and toured a low tech traditional brewery in Neiderbayern on a brew day. The lagering cellar was tunneled into the rocks, and was at 3C (year round according to the assistant Brewer). Just a coincidence? Maybe.
but would kind of like to get to a point where I can just keep it cold and not do the warmer rest and gradually lower from fermentation temp to cold temps.

I have not found any need to gradually lower the fermentation temps to cold temps for putting out good lagers. After I run a proper diacetyl rest, I cold crash overnight and keg the next day.

Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: beersk on April 22, 2016, 02:09:31 pm
Those profiles have a time at 3C, which caught my attention. Last November I was in Germany and toured a low tech traditional brewery in Neiderbayern on a brew day. The lagering cellar was tunneled into the rocks, and was at 3C (year round according to the assistant Brewer). Just a coincidence? Maybe.
but would kind of like to get to a point where I can just keep it cold and not do the warmer rest and gradually lower from fermentation temp to cold temps.

I have not found any need to gradually lower the fermentation temps to cold temps for putting out good lagers. After I run a proper diacetyl rest, I cold crash overnight and keg the next day.


The real reason I've been doing it is so it doesn't suck as much starsan back through my airlock. But I also believe there is something to gradually dropping the temp versus a straight-up crash. I don't know though...it's easy enough and I got the time.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: brewinhard on April 22, 2016, 02:22:59 pm
I always remove the airlock and just place saran wrap/foil over the carboy opening while cold crashing. Only because as the negative pressure is created inside the carboy from cooling, it pulls outside air into the carboy through the airlock (and star san sometimes) as it bubbles backwards.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: narcout on April 22, 2016, 05:10:08 pm
But I also believe there is something to gradually dropping the temp versus a straight-up crash. I don't know though...it's easy enough and I got the time.

My understanding of traditional lager brewing is that the beer is cooled slowly towards the end of fermentation to avoid shocking the yeast.  When there is still a small portion of fermentable extract remaining, the beer is racked into secondary, sealed with a pressure relief valve (to allow for natural carbonation), and slowly cooled further while the yeast continues working.

I guess cooling slowly is of less importance when one is allowing fermentation to complete during a higher temperature diacetyl rest and then racking to kegs for force carbing. 

Whether there are flavor differences between the two methods, I cannot say.  I would like to give the first method a try sometime though.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 22, 2016, 06:10:54 pm
I have not found any need to gradually lower the fermentation temps to cold temps for putting out good lagers. After I run a proper diacetyl rest, I cold crash overnight and keg the next day.


+1.  I cold crash in the keg after d rest and don't notice any issues at all.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: blair.streit on April 22, 2016, 10:42:42 pm
I have not found any need to gradually lower the fermentation temps to cold temps for putting out good lagers. After I run a proper diacetyl rest, I cold crash overnight and keg the next day.


+1.  I cold crash in the keg after d rest and don't notice any issues at all.
Yeah Sacc. may have to comment on the actual biological consequences. However from my layman's point of view, if the yeast are finished with their work, as long as you don't freeze them and explode the contents all over your beer then cooling fast shouldn't matter.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 22, 2016, 11:59:40 pm
Supposedly the yeast can give off undesirable flavors if stressed by too rapid cooling. I have not experienced this. I might go down 5-7 degrees per day. Oh, and I lager at -1C.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: wobdee on April 23, 2016, 12:55:22 am
I read somewhere that dropping temps too fast causes the yeast to release an enzyme that can hurt foam and head retention.
Title: Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
Post by: blair.streit on April 23, 2016, 01:02:22 am
Supposedly the yeast can give off undesirable flavors if stressed by too rapid cooling. I have not experienced this. I might go down 5-7 degrees per day. Oh, and I lager at -1C.
Yeah, I've heard read that the "heat stress" we hear about is rally from quick heating or cooling.

I've heard a lot about this in anecdotal terms (i.e. "I cool at X per Y and never have problems"). So far I haven't come across a text or trusted source with data on how fast is too fast.

With that in mind I tend to play it a bit conservative in this regard. In many ways, as homebrewers we have an advantage because many things that are issues at a commercial scale don't seem to be at our scale (i.e. we don't have to worry about hydrostatic pressure causing quick degradation in yeast health). On the other hand, in some cases we can change the temperature of our beer more rapidly than most commercial brewers. I sometimes wonder if that could cause is problems if we don't understand the practical implications.