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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: charles1968 on May 02, 2016, 08:43:01 PM

Title: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 02, 2016, 08:43:01 PM
I'd be interested to know if anyone has had good results brewing saison with yeast harvested from the dregs of a bottle of Saison Dupont. I'd just bottled a batch when I came across this blog:

Quote
Dupont’s brews are then either bottled or kegged. For bottling, a different yeast strain than that used for primary is used to spark a refermentation in the bottle.

http://drinkbelgianbeer.com/breweries/brussels-and-wallonia/the-brasserie-dupont-story/5

So I'm wondering what the heck I've brewed..
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on May 02, 2016, 09:17:12 PM
I don't know what Dupont uses, but a lot of breweries that use a different yeast use lager yeast.  So, you wind up with some sort of non-lager ale if you brew with it.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: dilluh98 on May 02, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
Something with sparkling white wine yeast?  ;)

That's what I use on the rare occasion where I re-yeast at bottling. Bullet-proof yeast that imparts no flavors as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 02, 2016, 10:05:38 PM
I think they bottle condition warm, so a wine yeast might be more likely than a lager. It fermented very aggressively - down to 1009 in less than a week. Definitely not the strain that drags its feet and stalls. Lots of banana ester at the moment. Fortunately I only made a gallon as an experiment.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: brewinhard on May 02, 2016, 11:11:19 PM
After you package it up please report back with how close you think it may be to a "saison" strain.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 03, 2016, 07:10:07 AM
I'll let you know after it's had a month in the bottle.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 03, 2016, 12:43:18 PM
On a related note, I will probably be driving through Belgium in a couple of weeks, so if anyone can recommend the best breweries to visit I would be interested to know.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: Hand of Dom on May 03, 2016, 02:11:48 PM
I've only visited the Straffe Hendrik one in Bruges/Brugge.  Visited Westvleteren, but only went to the cafe to stock up on booze.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: reverseapachemaster on May 03, 2016, 03:46:18 PM
I've tried brewing with dregs from bottles of Dupont. I was never particularly over the moon about what I got. I'm not sure if that's because there's a dominant bottling strain or culturing from the bottle results in a different blend of primary yeast. I just couldn't get enough flavor out of it. I think the better approach is to make a starter with 3724 and add dregs from bottles of saison vieille and try to get the balance of yeast closer to Dupont's actual culture.

On a related note, I will probably be driving through Belgium in a couple of weeks, so if anyone can recommend the best breweries to visit I would be interested to know.

What is best is probably more of a question of what is best for you and how ambitious you want to be. Your preference for Trappist (or abbey)/saison/sour/white could easily produce a significantly different list of breweries.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 03, 2016, 07:35:27 PM
I've only visited the Straffe Hendrik one in Bruges/Brugge.  Visited Westvleteren, but only went to the cafe to stock up on booze.

I'd like to stop at Bruges so might check out Straffe Hendrik if I have time.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 03, 2016, 07:41:40 PM
I've tried brewing with dregs from bottles of Dupont. I was never particularly over the moon about what I got. I'm not sure if that's because there's a dominant bottling strain or culturing from the bottle results in a different blend of primary yeast. I just couldn't get enough flavor out of it. I think the better approach is to make a starter with 3724 and add dregs from bottles of saison vieille and try to get the balance of yeast closer to Dupont's actual culture.

I suspect I will have the same problem. I'm pretty sure the bottling strain is dominant as the beer is centrifuged and filtered before bottling. And I reckon the pure Wyeast and Whitelabs strains might even be better than Dupont's mixed culture for flavour anyway - I think they picked the best strain, if the trickiest one. I think next time I'll start with 3724 and then add a second yeast when it stalls - either 3711, Nottingham or the bottle-harvested yeast.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: Hand of Dom on May 03, 2016, 10:05:43 PM
I bottled a saison made with WLP565 this weekend.  Kept it at 18c for the first few days, then ramped it by 2c each day up to 28c.  It went from 1060 to 1006 in 21 days.  Just covered the grommet for the airlock with some sanitised foil.  No problems with stalling.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: Hand of Dom on May 03, 2016, 10:32:33 PM
I've only visited the Straffe Hendrik one in Bruges/Brugge.  Visited Westvleteren, but only went to the cafe to stock up on booze.

I'd like to stop at Bruges so might check out Straffe Hendrik if I have time.
Couple of fantastic pubs in Bruges too. Brugs beertje, and cafe rose red.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 03, 2016, 10:53:58 PM
I bottled a saison made with WLP565 this weekend.  Kept it at 18c for the first few days, then ramped it by 2c each day up to 28c.  It went from 1060 to 1006 in 21 days.  Just covered the grommet for the airlock with some sanitised foil.  No problems with stalling.

Yes I think the trick is to allow some air in as well.as keeping it warm. I'd like to try it cooler too, just out of curiosity, but might need a standby yeast if it gives up.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: brewinhard on May 06, 2016, 01:32:30 PM
I bottled a saison made with WLP565 this weekend.  Kept it at 18c for the first few days, then ramped it by 2c each day up to 28c.  It went from 1060 to 1006 in 21 days.  Just covered the grommet for the airlock with some sanitised foil.  No problems with stalling.

Yes I think the trick is to allow some air in as well.as keeping it warm. I'd like to try it cooler too, just out of curiosity, but might need a standby yeast if it gives up.

As I understand it, the Dupont strain actually has 2 strains in its blend. WY 3724 is one and WL 565 is the other (maybe Mark will chime in with some more accurate info on this for us).

I have never had an issue with WL 565 stalling on me, ever. Instead it seems to ferment out quite normally for a saison strain given proper temp control. On the other hand, I have had stalling in the first generation with WY 3724 every single time I have used it, regardless of the gravity. Time and temp control help to finish out dry eventually (usually around 5-6 wks in primary). With that being said, the second pitch of this strain does seem to work faster (2-3 wks) and finish more appropriately.
I do prefer WY 3724 over WL 565 though.  Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: Phil_M on May 06, 2016, 01:48:32 PM
If I brew another Saison this summer I'm planning on pitching both WY3724 and WL565.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: dilluh98 on May 06, 2016, 02:23:27 PM
I have never had an issue with WL 565 stalling on me, ever. Instead it seems to ferment out quite normally for a saison strain given proper temp control. On the other hand, I have had stalling in the first generation with WY 3724 every single time I have used it, regardless of the gravity. Time and temp control help to finish out dry eventually (usually around 5-6 wks in primary). With that being said, the second pitch of this strain does seem to work faster (2-3 wks) and finish more appropriately.
I do prefer WY 3724 over WL 565 though.  Just my opinion.

This. 565, after learning about Drew's Saison primer and keeping the airlock off for the first few days (assuming a well aerated wort and healthy pitch), has never stalled on me. In fact, I've fermented it at 66F for 3 weeks steady and got down to 1.002. Using 565 at lower temperatures for a long time gives a really clean but kind of one-dimensional saison flavor, I've found. It's dry as a bone, a bit tart (probably due to mash pH control, I like shooting for 5.2 in the mash), a just straight-ahead phenolic/green pepper bite and that's it. Nice and clean, but not something that's going to wow anyone. Pushing the temperatures up a bit after the first few days is when you get some more complexity from that yeast.

One thing I'll never do again is ferment 565 warm right from the get go. Awful, awful stuff. That or I wasn't patient enough to let it settle down and meld in the bottle over time. I don't have the desire to try again though to find out.  ;)
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: reverseapachemaster on May 06, 2016, 03:56:41 PM
As I understand it, the Dupont strain actually has 2 strains in its blend. WY 3724 is one and WL 565 is the other (maybe Mark will chime in with some more accurate info on this for us).

I've read resources that suggest there are four strains within Dupont's house culture. Two are more flavor forward while the other two handle more of the workload drying out the beer. That makes sense if the primary flavor yeast tends to stall out because other yeast can step in and complete fermentation.

3724 and 565 are the same yeast--at least they began by isolating the same component of Dupont's culture. White Labs sells 566 which is widely understood to be the other flavor forward strain in Dupont's culture. I don't think Wyeast sells anything else out of Dupont's culture.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: zwiller on May 06, 2016, 04:19:49 PM
Any fan of the style owes it to himself to try 3726/Blaugies.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 06, 2016, 06:59:05 PM
I've fermented it at 66F for 3 weeks steady and got down to 1.002. Using 565 at lower temperatures for a long time gives a really clean but kind of one-dimensional saison flavor, I've found. It's dry as a bone, a bit tart (probably due to mash pH control, I like shooting for 5.2 in the mash), a just straight-ahead phenolic/green pepper bite and that's it. Nice and clean, but not something that's going to wow anyone.

Interesting. Sounds very much like Wyeast 3711 if you ferment cold.

I might try and visit this brewery but they only open once a month, so timing might not work out.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 06, 2016, 07:09:21 PM
Any fan of the style owes it to himself to try 3726/Blaugies.


Great strain. Wyeast really needs to sell that year round. I've given my vote to them a few times, as well as on a few other strains.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 29, 2016, 03:20:35 PM
After you package it up please report back with how close you think it may be to a "saison" strain.

The saison turned out well, but it's more like 3711 (WLP590) than 3724. Crisp and zesty but not very funky/fruity.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: brewinhard on May 29, 2016, 05:43:34 PM
After you package it up please report back with how close you think it may be to a "saison" strain.

The saison turned out well, but it's more like 3711 (WLP590) than 3724. Crisp and zesty but not very funky/fruity.

So a bit cleaner than 3724.  Interesting.  Thanks for the update. Did it still dry out fairly well for you?
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 29, 2016, 06:53:26 PM
Yes, it finished at about 1008. Not sure if I can trust my refractometer, so take that with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: brewinhard on May 29, 2016, 08:01:22 PM
Yes, it finished at about 1008. Not sure if I can trust my refractometer, so take that with a pinch of salt.

As long as it is calibrated and you corrected for alcohol then it probably is pretty close.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 29, 2016, 08:39:27 PM
Calibrated but unreliable - cheap Chinese optics. E.g. today I got readings of 13.1, 13.3 and 13.7 from the same wort. I suspect the saison is under 1008 as it tastes bone dry.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: narvin on May 29, 2016, 10:34:05 PM
Calibrated but unreliable - cheap Chinese optics. E.g. today I got readings of 13.1, 13.3 and 13.7 from the same wort. I suspect the saison is under 1008 as it tastes bone dry.

There's not a lot of moving parts in a refractometer, even the cheap ones.  Does the line move if you smack it?  If not, it could be related to your sampling technique.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 29, 2016, 11:00:19 PM
Calibrated but unreliable - cheap Chinese optics. E.g. today I got readings of 13.1, 13.3 and 13.7 from the same wort. I suspect the saison is under 1008 as it tastes bone dry.

There's not a lot of moving parts in a refractometer, even the cheap ones.  Does the line move if you smack it?  If not, it could be related to your sampling technique.

I'll try smacking it. The only other thing I can think that might throw it out is temperature of the prism, which could cool or warm the sample, for instance after rinsing under a cold tap. Sampling technique is using a pipette to place a drop, after flushing out the pipette with wort and washing/drying the refractometer. I don't measure hot wort - I take readings after chilling. It would be great to know the cause of the inconsistency. I think it's a common problem but only apparent if you take multiple readings.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: Phil_M on May 31, 2016, 05:50:16 PM
Evaporation? I've wondered if that is a factor at times.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 31, 2016, 06:01:05 PM
Evaporation? I've wondered if that is a factor at times.

It certainly could be with hot wort. I normally snap down the cover quickly to try and prevent it.

I tried measuring orange juice on my refractometer after rinsing the prism under cold and hot water. Cold prism ---> 10.3 Brix; hot prism ----> 9 Brix. I never normally rinse with hot, but the swing away from 10 (average for OJ) is large enough to make me think that's part of the problem.

I also wonder if it's possible for suspended solids to affect the reading besides blurring the line, or for stratification to develop in the wort (though I find that very doubtful unless using DME or syrup).
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: narvin on May 31, 2016, 06:05:55 PM
I tried measuring orange juice on my refractometer after rinsing the prism under cold and hot water. Cold prism ---> 10.3 Brix; hot prism ----> 9 Brix. I never normally rinse with hot, but the swing away from 10 (average for OJ) is large enough to make me think that's part of the problem.


That's a good point.  If you leave the refractometer at room temperature for a bit, does it return to the same value?
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: Phil_M on May 31, 2016, 06:16:38 PM
I have a digital refractometer where the sampling area is open, so evaporation would likely bite me long before a standard refractometer user.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 31, 2016, 07:37:47 PM
I tried measuring orange juice on my refractometer after rinsing the prism under cold and hot water. Cold prism ---> 10.3 Brix; hot prism ----> 9 Brix. I never normally rinse with hot, but the swing away from 10 (average for OJ) is large enough to make me think that's part of the problem.


That's a good point.  If you leave the refractometer at room temperature for a bit, does it return to the same value?

Yes, or if dipped in a container of water at room temp it reverts quickly.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 31, 2016, 07:41:00 PM
I have a digital refractometer where the sampling area is open, so evaporation would likely bite me long before a standard refractometer user.

Probably best to read it immediately after sampling.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: narvin on May 31, 2016, 07:43:39 PM
I tried measuring orange juice on my refractometer after rinsing the prism under cold and hot water. Cold prism ---> 10.3 Brix; hot prism ----> 9 Brix. I never normally rinse with hot, but the swing away from 10 (average for OJ) is large enough to make me think that's part of the problem.


That's a good point.  If you leave the refractometer at room temperature for a bit, does it return to the same value?

Yes, or if dipped in a container of water at room temp it reverts quickly.

So it sounds like the culprit for cheapo refractometer inconsistency is ATC.  If you keep the unit at room temperature, that shouldn't be an issue, since the mass of the prism is much greater than a few drops of wort would be able to change.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 31, 2016, 10:31:01 PM
I think it's a factor but not convinced it's the whole story until I do some more tests. Agree that sample drop temp doesn't affect the prism temperature much, but evaporation might be an issue for hot samples.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 31, 2016, 10:54:45 PM
So it sounds like the culprit for cheapo refractometer inconsistency is ATC.  If you keep the unit at room temperature, that shouldn't be an issue, since the mass of the prism is much greater than a few drops of wort would be able to change.


Totally agree. And evaporation on hot samples definitely happens quickly, too - FWIW I cool my hot samples for a couple minutes in the freezer in an airtight plastic container, then take a reading. Just takes a couple minutes in the freezer to be @ room temp. My refracto stays @ room temp as well.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on May 31, 2016, 11:07:40 PM
From Braukaiser's blog:

"BTW, the ATC of this refractometer is also broken. For every brewing session I have to re-calibrate it with water. Since this is done very quickly, it doesn’t bother me too much"

Sounds like similar issue - temperature of the prism. Not "broken", just used at wrong temp.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: Phil_M on May 31, 2016, 11:33:34 PM
Totally agree. And evaporation on hot samples definitely happens quickly, too - FWIW I cool my hot samples for a couple minutes in the freezer in an airtight plastic container, then take a reading. Just takes a couple minutes in the freezer to be @ room temp. My refracto stays @ room temp as well.


That's my plan next brew day. The nice thing about being set up for yeast culturing is an ample supply of borosilicate culture tubes. I plan to use a tube and a pair of tongs to collect a sample, cap, then cool till testable. A small amount of liquid like that won't take long to cool at all.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: erockrph on June 01, 2016, 02:58:39 AM
Totally agree. And evaporation on hot samples definitely happens quickly, too - FWIW I cool my hot samples for a couple minutes in the freezer in an airtight plastic container, then take a reading. Just takes a couple minutes in the freezer to be @ room temp. My refracto stays @ room temp as well.


That's my plan next brew day. The nice thing about being set up for yeast culturing is an ample supply of borosilicate culture tubes. I plan to use a tube and a pair of tongs to collect a sample, cap, then cool till testable. A small amount of liquid like that won't take long to cool at all.
I have several of the old White Labs vials laying around for just this purpose.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: brewinhard on June 01, 2016, 02:01:35 PM
+1 to refractometer being kept at room temps for best accuracy (even with ATC).

and don't forget to use distilled water when calibrating any equipment like refractometers/hydrometers.  At least that is what my anal mind does.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on June 01, 2016, 02:59:21 PM
How does ATC work on a refractometer? Is there an actual mechanism or does it just rely on thermal mass of the prism being so much greater than the small sample?
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: narvin on June 01, 2016, 03:48:59 PM
How does ATC work on a refractometer? Is there an actual mechanism or does it just rely on thermal mass of the prism being so much greater than the small sample?

The drops of wort should equalize in temp with the device pretty quickly.  But, the refractive index of a solution varies based on the temperature.

The models with ATC are supposed to have something that compensate for this, some piece of metal that expands or contracts based on temperature of the unit, so a sucrose solution in water measured at any (reasonable) temperature is corrected to a room temperature reading.  However, I don't think that really works very well.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: narvin on June 01, 2016, 03:50:50 PM
http://www.refractometer.pl/hand-held-refractometer

Besides not being all that accurate, I bet you're going to throw the mechanism off if you change the temperature of the prism by running it under water.  The bimetallic strip is designed to compensate the reading for ambient temperature, so if the prism (and, therefore, your sample) is at a different temp it won't work.  This could also be why a very hot sample is not accurate, since it probably ends up above room temperature even after hitting the prism.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: charles1968 on June 01, 2016, 04:29:10 PM
http://www.refractometer.pl/hand-held-refractometer

Besides not being all that accurate, I bet you're going to throw the mechanism off if you change the temperature of the prism by running it under water.  The bimetallic strip is designed to compensate the reading for ambient temperature, so if the prism (and, therefore, your sample) is at a different temp it won't work.  This could also be why a very hot sample is not accurate, since it probably ends up above room temperature even after hitting the prism.

Yes the prism needs to be same temp as the bimetallic strip, otherwise the sample droplet will equalize with a prism that's hotter/colder than the compensator.

My ATC refractometer instructions say don't immerse in water, so to clean a sample off the prism I clearly have to rinse in a stream of water at ambient temperature and then dry. PITA as it means preparing a refractometer-cleaning bottle, but I don't see an alternative. If I can convince myself it's accurate on first reading I will just take one reading and leave it at that. I can't remember where I read that it's necessary to take multiple readings and average them but I'm thinking that's bad advice.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: brewinhard on June 01, 2016, 04:35:30 PM
I rarely use my refrac anymore, simply because I don't feel that it gives me very accurate readings compared to my calibrated hydrometer. I have trusted it too many times on near-end boil readings that have been way off compared to original gravities taken with hydrometers. YMMV.
Title: Re: Bottle harvesting Saison Dupont yeast
Post by: 69franx on June 01, 2016, 06:38:02 PM
I rarely use my refrac anymore, simply because I don't feel that it gives me very accurate readings compared to my calibrated hydrometer. I have trusted it too many times on near-end boil readings that have been way off compared to original gravities taken with hydrometers. YMMV.
Same here. I usually have it in a pocket, holding consistent temp, but then rarely use it. Having also read on here that the formulas the cheap ones use can vary a little to more significantly to hydrometers as OG goes up. Just not what I am looking for. If I use it, its usually at the beginning of boil to at least know that my mash was in the ballpark. I have never bothered trying to work the calculations for the presence of alcohol, so no FG measurements with it at all