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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: denny on May 11, 2016, 06:43:32 pm

Title: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 11, 2016, 06:43:32 pm
Because so many people are interested, I scanned the lit I have...https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2R-Uk7z3JpgckpheTNXY1M0b1U . I hope it's legal to post this, but they were distributing it CBC so I assume they won't mind.  Also, if anyone would be interested, I can ask Joe if he has time to join us to answer questions.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 11, 2016, 06:49:54 pm
A big vote yes for me, Denny. Being a great brewer as well as knowing about the product would make him a good authority.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: yso191 on May 11, 2016, 08:10:31 pm
Very interesting!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: stpug on May 12, 2016, 07:50:23 am
Very nice. Thanks for that, Denny.  I look forward to reading people's "take" on Brewtan B in the future; and, perhaps, when it becomes more readily available then I'll actually give it a shot myself.  Until then, back to my homemade hoochy poop beer :P
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: kramerog on May 12, 2016, 07:57:01 am
The stuff is really powerful. The dose in the boil is 2-5 g/hl or .38-.95 g/5 gal.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on May 12, 2016, 10:37:57 am
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 12, 2016, 10:53:19 am
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on May 12, 2016, 07:42:34 pm
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Ya see, now Denny is withholding information!!! It's all a gawd damned conspiracy! Beer doesn't exist, life is a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather... what happened to Tom?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 12, 2016, 07:43:46 pm
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Ya see, now Denny is withholding information!!! It's all a gawd damned conspiracy! Beer doesn't exist, life is a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather... what happened to Tom?

I think I fixed the info, but I still don't know where Tom is....
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on May 12, 2016, 07:47:46 pm
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Ya see, now Denny is withholding information!!! It's all a gawd damned conspiracy! Beer doesn't exist, life is a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather... what happened to Tom?

I think I fixed the info, but I still don't know where Tom is....
He was cool. Named a black IPA after me once, the Crossdressing Amateurs, saw it on a sign in an episode of Brewing TV from 2011 or 2012 I think. I laugh every time I watch that episode!

Were you just watching the thread, waiting for a reply? haha

Anyway, as I said in the other thread, I'm not very science-y, I shouldn't really be in these discussions about Low-DO, I really don't have anything to contribute other than I think there's something to keeping O2 out of the entire process at all possible...
Steady on!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 12, 2016, 07:56:19 pm
I don't think I or anyone else has ever denied that O2 can be a problem.  For me it's a question of how to deal with it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on May 12, 2016, 08:29:56 pm
Well, this just may be a case of, what my Kung Fu Sifu used to say, "If it were easy, everyone would be doing it". There was so much that went into training Ving Tsun kung fu, it was ridiculous. It's an art, most definitely, and I view brewing or playing drums (or any instrument) the same way. There's no easy, there's no short cuts, you have to put in the work to get the results.
But this is a tough pill to swallow, this whole Low-DO thing... I'll come to accept it eventually maybe...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on May 12, 2016, 08:36:54 pm
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Ya see, now Denny is withholding information!!! It's all a gawd damned conspiracy! Beer doesn't exist, life is a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather... what happened to Tom?
He opened a brewery.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on May 13, 2016, 07:59:26 am
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Ya see, now Denny is withholding information!!! It's all a gawd damned conspiracy! Beer doesn't exist, life is a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather... what happened to Tom?
He opened a brewery.
Well, so did Keith!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: toby on May 13, 2016, 08:51:46 am
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Ya see, now Denny is withholding information!!! It's all a gawd damned conspiracy! Beer doesn't exist, life is a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather... what happened to Tom?

He's living on the coast of Arizona Bay.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on May 13, 2016, 09:40:55 am
I still only get the cover page then the odd numbered pages from that link Denny
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 13, 2016, 09:42:41 am
I still only get the cover page then the odd numbered pages from that link Denny

Thanks!  I'll see what I can do.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 13, 2016, 09:52:03 am
It seems like you have to give it a couple minutes to appear.  You could also try downloading it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: pete b on May 13, 2016, 09:55:29 am
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Ya see, now Denny is withholding information!!! It's all a gawd damned conspiracy! Beer doesn't exist, life is a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather... what happened to Tom?
I so miss Bill...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on May 13, 2016, 10:11:38 am
It seems like you have to give it a couple minutes to appear.  You could also try downloading it.
My download has been on my screen since you posted this, still only odd pages. Still interesting info though
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: stpug on May 13, 2016, 10:32:32 am
It seems like you have to give it a couple minutes to appear.  You could also try downloading it.

I'll give a second confirmation that your link in the original post only has the odd pages - even when downloaded.  The PDF document is 4 pages long when it should be 7 pages long (I think 7).

Denny, I wonder if you happen to be checking a different/updated link than us?  If you still have the original 7 page PDF then maybe you can try uploading it to your google drive again and giving us the new link.  Sorry to a PITA, but the literature is intriguing but I feel like I'm only getting half the picture :D
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on May 13, 2016, 10:52:33 am
Here are the even numbered pages.  I know it isn't the best way to display them, but the versions I have are in PDF, and I'm not sure how else to post them here.  If you download them to your desktop, they are fairly legible.

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/narcout/brewtan_Page_2.jpg) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/narcout/media/brewtan_Page_2.jpg.html)

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/narcout/Form%2010110%20%20Brewtan%20B%20-%20mashing%20and%20boiling%20fact%20sheet%201214_Page_2.jpg) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/narcout/media/Form%2010110%20%20Brewtan%20B%20-%20mashing%20and%20boiling%20fact%20sheet%201214_Page_2.jpg.html)

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/narcout/Form%2010110%20%20Brewtan%20B%20-%20mashing%20and%20boiling%20fact%20sheet%201214_Page_4.jpg) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/narcout/media/Form%2010110%20%20Brewtan%20B%20-%20mashing%20and%20boiling%20fact%20sheet%201214_Page_4.jpg.html)

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/narcout/Form%2010110%20%20Brewtan%20B%20-%20mashing%20and%20boiling%20fact%20sheet%201214_Page_6.jpg) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/narcout/media/Form%2010110%20%20Brewtan%20B%20-%20mashing%20and%20boiling%20fact%20sheet%201214_Page_6.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 13, 2016, 11:08:20 am
It seems like you have to give it a couple minutes to appear.  You could also try downloading it.

I'll give a second confirmation that your link in the original post only has the odd pages - even when downloaded.  The PDF document is 4 pages long when it should be 7 pages long (I think 7).

Denny, I wonder if you happen to be checking a different/updated link than us?  If you still have the original 7 page PDF then maybe you can try uploading it to your google drive again and giving us the new link.  Sorry to a PITA, but the literature is intriguing but I feel like I'm only getting half the picture :D

Yeah, the original was missing pages so I reposted yesterday afternoon.  Took the original down.  See if this link is better...https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2R-Uk7z3JpgRHZfRENpNmtpTVk/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: stpug on May 13, 2016, 11:11:45 am
Thanks narcout and thank you too Denny! I was going to post a fixed version that was a mashup of the odd-paged PDF and narcout's images, but Denny's new link works.

Thanks again you two! Problem solved
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on May 13, 2016, 11:22:13 am
Yep, got it all now. Thanks Denny
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on May 13, 2016, 02:02:56 pm
It looks like only the odd numbered pages are showing up in that link.

Thank you for posting.

Wow, it definitely looks wacky today.
Ya see, now Denny is withholding information!!! It's all a gawd damned conspiracy! Beer doesn't exist, life is a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather... what happened to Tom?

He's living on the coast of Arizona Bay.
Nice Bill Hicks reference!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 17, 2016, 12:43:52 pm
I'm about halfway through the boil on 2 back to back batches of German pils.  This one used Brewtan B, the one tomorrow will not.  Great wort clarity from the mash, but until I brew the other batch to compare I don't know of Brewtan contributed to that.  For those wondering about effect on pH, it was right where it was supposed to be.  I'll compare that to the non Brewtan batch tomorrow.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: blair.streit on May 17, 2016, 12:45:14 pm
I'm about halfway through the boil on 2 back to back batches of German pils.  This one used Brewtan B, the one tomorrow will not.  Great wort clarity from the mash, but until I brew the other batch to compare I don't know of Brewtan contributed to that.  For those wondering about effect on pH, it was right where it was supposed to be.  I'll compare that to the non Brewtan batch tomorrow.
Awesome -- you're blinding me with science  8)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 17, 2016, 01:02:06 pm
For those wondering about effect on pH, it was right where it was supposed to be. 


Good info, Denny. Gonna use it in my next batch and I was curious about pH.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on May 17, 2016, 01:16:36 pm
Did you notice any difference in the wort color or taste to previous brews?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 17, 2016, 01:30:36 pm
Did you notice any difference in the wort color or taste to previous brews?

I didn't taste the wort, and it wouldn't really have told me anything unless I had a comparison without it to taste, too.  In terms of color, nothing special.  But I can't say for sure until I brew the same recipe without it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on May 17, 2016, 03:05:45 pm
Cool.  I'm planning to pick some of this up soon.  I'm curious to see if it has any effect on chill haze.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 17, 2016, 06:23:48 pm
It seems like you have to give it a couple minutes to appear.  You could also try downloading it.

I'll give a second confirmation that your link in the original post only has the odd pages - even when downloaded.  The PDF document is 4 pages long when it should be 7 pages long (I think 7).

Denny, I wonder if you happen to be checking a different/updated link than us?  If you still have the original 7 page PDF then maybe you can try uploading it to your google drive again and giving us the new link.  Sorry to a PITA, but the literature is intriguing but I feel like I'm only getting half the picture :D

Yeah, the original was missing pages so I reposted yesterday afternoon.  Took the original down.  See if this link is better...https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2R-Uk7z3JpgRHZfRENpNmtpTVk/view?usp=sharing
I hope it works but it looks like it will fix all your ailments.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on May 18, 2016, 09:58:15 am

I hope it works but it looks like it will fix all your ailments.

AND make my hair shiny and lustrous!  ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on May 18, 2016, 10:19:15 am
Cool.  I'm planning to pick some of this up soon.  I'm curious to see if it has any effect on chill haze.

It does, but it ultimately depends on what's causing the chill haze.  In my own process, it was polyphenols and polyclar works better for that but if it is protein/lipids, Brewtan is the tool. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on May 18, 2016, 05:00:26 pm

I hope it works but it looks like it will fix all your ailments.

AND make my hair shiny and lustrous!  ;)

Hopefully everywhere! Look out Fabio!  8)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: klickitat jim on May 18, 2016, 06:47:11 pm
A guy I know, knows a guy that got me a sample to try out.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on May 18, 2016, 07:01:35 pm
A guy I know, knows a guy that got me a sample to try out.
Um, that's oregano dude.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: RPIScotty on May 18, 2016, 09:08:54 pm
A guy I know, knows a guy that got me a sample to try out.
Um, that's oregano dude.

Best response of all time.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 07, 2016, 09:06:45 am
Brewed a batch of Helles the other day with Brewtan B in the mash and end of boil. My run off looked like cloudy orange juice, usually it runs crystal clear.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on June 07, 2016, 10:35:40 am
Brewed a batch of Helles the other day with Brewtan B in the mash and end of boil. My run off looked like cloudy orange juice, usually it runs crystal clear.

What gives?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 07, 2016, 11:21:53 am
Brewed a batch of Helles the other day with Brewtan B in the mash and end of boil. My run off looked like cloudy orange juice, usually it runs crystal clear.

What gives?
Don't know, the mash was nice and clear but after chilling I let it settle for 15-30 min and it just stayed a hazy orangish color instead of dropping clear. I set aside a fast ferment test sample in a quart jar, it's only been a couple days but it will be interesting to see if it drops clear in the next couple days. The wort still tasted and smelled normal to what I'm used to, maybe it will be fine and just needs time.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on June 07, 2016, 11:34:35 am
My take is that Brewtan is made of tannic acid/polyphenols (PP) and when added in the presence of proteins/lipids of opposite charge they combine and precipitate but if PP are added and there are no excess proteins/lipids they would cause haze.  You might be like me and have excess PP not proteins.  Hoppy styles a little too grassy/astringent?  In any event, you'll definitely know if it PP when you see the chilled wort after using polyclar.  Night and day difference.   
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 07, 2016, 01:45:36 pm
My take is that Brewtan is made of tannic acid/polyphenols (PP) and when added in the presence of proteins/lipids of opposite charge they combine and precipitate but if PP are added and there are no excess proteins/lipids they would cause haze.  You might be like me and have excess PP not proteins.  Hoppy styles a little too grassy/astringent?  In any event, you'll definitely know if it PP when you see the chilled wort after using polyclar.  Night and day difference.
Ah, that makes sense. I have a Braumeister and I bet the recirculation strips a lot of the proteins out in the mash, it always super clear wort. Adding tannic acid is just adding haze to already clear wort. Hope it settles out.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on June 08, 2016, 08:47:16 am
Recirc/RIMS will put extra PP into solution.  I am confident the levels would be higher than typical.  I would definitely try some polyclar at 10m to KO.  I would not sit on that Helles waiting for it to clear.  A large amount of PP in finished beer combining with O2 is a classic fast staling situation.  Polyclar on cold side should clear that Helles in a snap. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 08, 2016, 09:44:21 am
Recirc/RIMS will put extra PP into solution.  I am confident the levels would be higher than typical.  I would definitely try some polyclar at 10m to KO.  I would not sit on that Helles waiting for it to clear.  A large amount of PP in finished beer combining with O2 is a classic fast staling situation.  Polyclar on cold side should clear that Helles in a snap.
You don't think it will clear up with a long lager time? I saved out a quart jar of this for a fast ferment test, waiting to see if that clears up and tastes before I consider this batch a dumper.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on June 08, 2016, 10:53:12 am
Recirc/RIMS will put extra PP into solution.  I am confident the levels would be higher than typical.  I would definitely try some polyclar at 10m to KO.  I would not sit on that Helles waiting for it to clear.  A large amount of PP in finished beer combining with O2 is a classic fast staling situation.  Polyclar on cold side should clear that Helles in a snap.

Interesting. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on June 08, 2016, 02:24:50 pm
I think it might clear up but the flavor will fade at same time.  Definitely use the FF test to benchmark.  Highly doubt it's a dumper tho.  I would either drink hazy or hit it with polyclar.     

Note sure if anyone put this together yet, but Brewtan is definitely not be a good choice for IPA/hop heavy stuff as they will be loaded with PP from the hops.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 08, 2016, 02:29:36 pm
Brewed a batch of Helles the other day with Brewtan B in the mash and end of boil. My run off looked like cloudy orange juice, usually it runs crystal clear.

Interesting.  I just had the clearest runoff I can ever recall using it on a batch of Rye IPA.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 08, 2016, 02:34:04 pm
Brewed a batch of Helles the other day with Brewtan B in the mash and end of boil. My run off looked like cloudy orange juice, usually it runs crystal clear.

Interesting.  I just had the clearest runoff I can ever recall using it on a batch of Rye IPA.
Yes, I remember reading that, that's why I was curious why mine was so hazy. Could be different applications for different setups?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 08, 2016, 02:36:29 pm
Brewed a batch of Helles the other day with Brewtan B in the mash and end of boil. My run off looked like cloudy orange juice, usually it runs crystal clear.

Interesting.  I just had the clearest runoff I can ever recall using it on a batch of Rye IPA.
Yes, I remember reading that, that's why I was curious why mine was so hazy. Could be different applications for different setups?

Dunno.  I know the Big mega breweries use it and their setups are pretty sophisticated.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on June 08, 2016, 02:37:37 pm
Brewed a batch of Helles the other day with Brewtan B in the mash and end of boil. My run off looked like cloudy orange juice, usually it runs crystal clear.

Interesting.  I just had the clearest runoff I can ever recall using it on a batch of Rye IPA.
Yes, I remember reading that, that's why I was curious why mine was so hazy. Could be different applications for different setups?

Perhaps BUT rye malt is higher protein so makes sense to me. 

Remember all the brewing lit we read is basically BMC which uses adjuncts/higher protein. 

MAN I am having worst time losing posts today... 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 08, 2016, 02:49:31 pm
Next batch I'll probably just try it in the mash and not the end of the boil. My mash wort was crystal clear.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: AmandaK on June 14, 2016, 08:31:58 am
Alright, fine guys. You got me. I broke down and ordered Brewtan B.  ;D

Must experiment!

Question: the recirc on the Zymatic, I'm gathering that would be an issue here. Is this what I need to grab a few parts and build me that second brewery?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 14, 2016, 09:29:03 am
Alright, fine guys. You got me. I broke down and ordered Brewtan B.  ;D

Must experiment!

Question: the recirc on the Zymatic, I'm gathering that would be an issue here. Is this what I need to grab a few parts and build me that second brewery?
You were missed in Baltimore.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 14, 2016, 09:38:24 am
Alright, fine guys. You got me. I broke down and ordered Brewtan B.  ;D

Must experiment!

Question: the recirc on the Zymatic, I'm gathering that would be an issue here. Is this what I need to grab a few parts and build me that second brewery?
You were missed in Baltimore.

Indeed you were.  People kept asking about you.

As to Brewtan and the Z, you should contact Annie.  I got the Picobrew people together with Joe Formanek to talk about Brewtan, so they're aware of it and experimenting with it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on June 14, 2016, 10:50:50 am
Alright, fine guys. You got me. I broke down and ordered Brewtan B.  ;D

Must experiment!

Question: the recirc on the Zymatic, I'm gathering that would be an issue here. Is this what I need to grab a few parts and build me that second brewery?

Where did you order it from?  I couldn't find any US homebrew shops that sell it in small quantities.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 14, 2016, 11:09:20 am
Alright, fine guys. You got me. I broke down and ordered Brewtan B.  ;D

Must experiment!

Question: the recirc on the Zymatic, I'm gathering that would be an issue here. Is this what I need to grab a few parts and build me that second brewery?

Where did you order it from?  I couldn't find any US homebrew shops that sell it in small quantities.



I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is. But they sell in smaller (homebrewing) quantities. I emailed them after 3 weeks and no product. They apologized and shipped some more. 2 weeks later, nothing. They said it should take 7-10 days from there. Gonna ask for a refund. Luckily I didn't spend much on it. Hopefully U.S. retailers are gonna get on board with smaller quantities fairly soon.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 14, 2016, 11:27:13 am
Alright, fine guys. You got me. I broke down and ordered Brewtan B.  ;D

Must experiment!

Question: the recirc on the Zymatic, I'm gathering that would be an issue here. Is this what I need to grab a few parts and build me that second brewery?

Where did you order it from?  I couldn't find any US homebrew shops that sell it in small quantities.



I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is. But they sell in smaller (homebrewing) quantities. I emailed them after 3 weeks and no product. They apologized and shipped some more. 2 weeks later, nothing. They said it should take 7-10 days from there. Gonna ask for a refund. Luckily I didn't spend much on it. Hopefully U.S. retailers are gonna get on board with smaller quantities fairly soon.
I ordered 50g from them and received it in 3 weeks
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 14, 2016, 11:32:34 am
Alright, fine guys. You got me. I broke down and ordered Brewtan B.  ;D

Must experiment!

Question: the recirc on the Zymatic, I'm gathering that would be an issue here. Is this what I need to grab a few parts and build me that second brewery?

Where did you order it from?  I couldn't find any US homebrew shops that sell it in small quantities.



I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is. But they sell in smaller (homebrewing) quantities. I emailed them after 3 weeks and no product. They apologized and shipped some more. 2 weeks later, nothing. They said it should take 7-10 days from there. Gonna ask for a refund. Luckily I didn't spend much on it. Hopefully U.S. retailers are gonna get on board with smaller quantities fairly soon.
I ordered 50g from them and received it in 3 weeks

Glad to hear somebody is getting it. I'll wait a few more days then see if they'll ship again. I'd really like to try it out.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on June 14, 2016, 11:33:17 am
We should probably be hearing from Denny pretty soon after his pilsner experiments, yes?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 14, 2016, 11:33:34 am
I'd be curious to know if there's an amount per gal or liter they recommend for homebrewers for both mashing and boil? I know Denny said 1/4 TSP mash and 1/2 TSP boil but it also depends on how you brew, thick or thin mash, sparge or no sparge, batch size, lots of variables.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: AmandaK on June 14, 2016, 12:01:37 pm
Aww, I'm honored that I was missed.  :) I will be at NHC 2017 in MN. It's only a 6 hour drive from KC!

I "ordered" it from National Homebrew, but they didn't take any payment info. Rather strange. Anyway, I've reached out to my LHBS to see if I can get a giant thing of it for the club. If it's only on the Wyeast commercial side, I'll hit up a few pro-brewer friends to see if they can snag it. (Edit: it is only commercial - dang)

Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2. (And our bottled beers have the same issue.) I closed transfer. The recipes are all similar before and after the brewery switch. I'm even lowering my pH to the low 4's to help stability and they just go oxidized anyway. I'm at a loss. Surely it's not the brewery itself, but I can't think of anything else.

I have one beer that I've made EXACTLY the same on both systems - our BGSA that's in Denny's book. The one we brewed back in 2014 for the wedding on the Sabco shows less age than the same beer, brewed at the end of 2015 on the Zymatic. Same recipe. Both were bottled. Same numbers in every aspect of the beers. Only the brewery changed. I don't get it.

So anyway, Brewtan-B is my next step. And maybe building a low-O2 brewery out of the kettles and parts I have laying around.

Disclaimer: I'm the only one that notices the oxidation in my beers. Never gotten a scoresheet back that had it on there (but then again, I'm not entering the crappy ones! ha) so I may just be crazy. So YMMV.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 14, 2016, 12:41:56 pm
We should probably be hearing from Denny pretty soon after his pilsner experiments, yes?

Crashed the pils on Sun.  On my way to take a gravity sample now and I'll taste it later after I get done with my editing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 14, 2016, 12:44:04 pm
I'd be curious to know if there's an amount per gal or liter they recommend for homebrewers for both mashing and boil? I know Denny said 1/4 TSP mash and 1/2 TSP boil but it also depends on how you brew, thick or thin mash, sparge or no sparge, batch size, lots of variables.

The only one of those variables that matters is batch size.  Why would you think any of those other things mattered?  The amount I posted IS what they recommend for a 54 gal. batch.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 14, 2016, 12:57:35 pm
I'd be curious to know if there's an amount per gal or liter they recommend for homebrewers for both mashing and boil? I know Denny said 1/4 TSP mash and 1/2 TSP boil but it also depends on how you brew, thick or thin mash, sparge or no sparge, batch size, lots of variables.

The only one of those variables that matters is batch size.  Why would you think any of those other things mattered?  The amount I posted IS what they recommend for a 54 gal. batch.
I'm not sure if it matters or not but if your brewing BIAB your using more water in your mash than a traditional all grain sparge. Maybe that 1/4 TSP should be increased in that case?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 14, 2016, 01:32:50 pm
I'm not sure if it matters or not but if your brewing BIAB your using more water in your mash than a traditional all grain sparge. Maybe that 1/4 TSP should be increased in that case?

In speaking with the guy from the company, the only variable he mentioned is batch size.  He didn't ask me about my mash ratio or sparge technique.  I have to assume, then, that those don't matter.  It's not the amount of water, it's the amount of beer apparently.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on June 14, 2016, 01:57:36 pm
Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: AmandaK on June 14, 2016, 02:23:22 pm
Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!

Interesting... I vaguely remember that many people, likely on this forum, were saying that after 5-6 flushes of CO2 that it effectively didn't matter. Probably just a couple of years ago or less.

Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

I'm about to buy a DO meter.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on June 14, 2016, 02:34:35 pm
Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!
I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on June 14, 2016, 02:37:33 pm
Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

Is the idea that yeast suspended in beer can scavenge oxygen in bottled beer now bunk? This is the most commonly stated theory. Thus, beer bottled off a keg that's been fined is suspect to quicker oxidation due to very little yeast being left in suspension. Or I thought that was the idea...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on June 14, 2016, 02:57:44 pm

I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.

Fill through the liquid out fitting, with the top closed  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on June 14, 2016, 03:05:56 pm

I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.

Fill through the liquid out fitting, with the top closed  :)
I do this. It's so slow if using gravity.

As far as wasting water, use starsan in the final sanitation and push it into a bucket for saving. Better yet push it into another clean keg and leave it there.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on June 14, 2016, 03:15:10 pm

I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.

Fill through the liquid out fitting, with the top closed  :)
I do this. It's so slow if using gravity.

As far as wasting water, use starsan in the final sanitation and push it into a bucket for saving. Better yet push it into another clean keg and leave it there.

I definitely sanitize multiple kegs at once.

Also, use more gravity.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on June 14, 2016, 03:33:58 pm
Water it wastes? All my sanitizer went into a bucket for reuse. Definitely little, if any, waste.

Amanda, yes you can purge in fewer cycles, but it requires higher pressure. The bottom line is that you use a lot more CO2. Were your bottles filled from that keg? The beer would be pre-oxidized.

By the way, since my dip tube is shortened and I was therefore going to leave a nice little slug of sanitizer in the keg, I figured that by turning the keg upside down and just cracking the lid to let the sanitizer out would work. It definitely did and I'm pretty sure that little air entered.   
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 14, 2016, 03:53:52 pm
Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!

Interesting... I vaguely remember that many people, likely on this forum, were saying that after 5-6 flushes of CO2 that it effectively didn't matter. Probably just a couple of years ago or less.

Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

I'm about to buy a DO meter.
You need many purges at high pressure (30 PSIG) to get to the levels we want for low O2.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=23682.msg302849#msg302849
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: majorvices on June 15, 2016, 04:51:42 am
I just ordered 20 lbs of this stuff and when I saw the price I remembered why I stopped using it. Ouch! It costs me nearly $500 bucks for 20 lbs. I'll give it another whirl though to see if it makes any difference.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: blair.streit on June 15, 2016, 06:36:40 am
Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!

Interesting... I vaguely remember that many people, likely on this forum, were saying that after 5-6 flushes of CO2 that it effectively didn't matter. Probably just a couple of years ago or less.

Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

I'm about to buy a DO meter.
When considering the Zymatic, one thing that crossed my mind was suspended trub and its potential impact on flavor stability. I seem to recall that there's a screen to hold back trub during chilling. I wonder if there are any process variables that could allow enough trub to get through that it would become a stability concern.

On the other hand, Annie is famous for Pils so I would imagine if there was a concern there she would know about it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: AmandaK on June 15, 2016, 06:45:09 am
When considering the Zymatic, one thing that crossed my mind was suspended trub and its potential impact on flavor stability. I seem to recall that there's a screen to hold back trub during chilling. I wonder if there are any process variables that could allow enough trub to get through that it would become a stability concern.

The wort coming out of the Z is so clear I can read a newspaper through it.

On the other hand, Annie is famous for Pils so I would imagine if there was a concern there she would know about it.

Exactly, which is why I'm "talking it out" in a way, so other people can help me find what is different/wrong in my process - because just me thinking about it in a circle has gotten me nowhere. It should also be noted that I'm an engineer and a perfectionist. These "flaws" I'm talking about have barely been noticed by anyone else and I've won many medals with the Z brewed beers (and two commercial scale ups!). I'm just nit-picking to nit-pick.  ;)



Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 15, 2016, 09:10:33 am
We should probably be hearing from Denny pretty soon after his pilsner experiments, yes?

Crashed the pils on Sun.  On my way to take a gravity sample now and I'll taste it later after I get done with my editing.
How'd your sample turn out?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 15, 2016, 10:25:49 am
Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

Is the idea that yeast suspended in beer can scavenge oxygen in bottled beer now bunk? This is the most commonly stated theory. Thus, beer bottled off a keg that's been fined is suspect to quicker oxidation due to very little yeast being left in suspension. Or I thought that was the idea...

Always has been IMO.  It's pure speculation.  In reality, there isn't enough fermentation going on for that to happen.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 15, 2016, 10:28:44 am
We should probably be hearing from Denny pretty soon after his pilsner experiments, yes?

Crashed the pils on Sun.  On my way to take a gravity sample now and I'll taste it later after I get done with my editing.
How'd your sample turn out?

I think it's too soon to say for sure, but at a guess the Brewtan sample _may_ be _very slightly_ clearer and have a better malt flavor.  But nothing definitive at this point.  The Rye IPA, OTOH, definitely exhibited more clarity and flavor than I recall as normal.  But there was no side by sode done on that one.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on June 15, 2016, 04:58:22 pm

I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.

Fill through the liquid out fitting, with the top closed  :)
I do this. It's so slow if using gravity.

As far as wasting water, use starsan in the final sanitation and push it into a bucket for saving. Better yet push it into another clean keg and leave it there.

I definitely sanitize multiple kegs at once.

Also, use more gravity.
Not sure how well this would work with a bucket/auto syphon... If I end up getting a SS brewbucket, I'll be doing the closed transfer thing with a gas jumper going from the keg back to the fermenter for the closed transfer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on June 15, 2016, 06:36:17 pm
AHA members that didn't attend this session at the 2016 conference should review this seminar online: Identifying and Avoiding Oxidation It provides great guidance on how to implement oxygenless cold side beer transfers.

It may be a few weeks until that seminar is posted on the AHA website, but it is worth your review.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 15, 2016, 06:49:28 pm
Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 15, 2016, 06:57:10 pm
Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.


That's my hope, too.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 16, 2016, 05:19:42 am
AHA members that didn't attend this session at the 2016 conference should review this seminar online: Identifying and Avoiding Oxidation It provides great guidance on how to implement oxygenless cold side beer transfers.

It may be a few weeks until that seminar is posted on the AHA website, but it is worth your review.
He reviewed best practices from start to finish. Good presentation.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on June 16, 2016, 06:24:59 am
Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.

I doubt it. I strongly recommend that you review that seminar and you will see that it doesn't have to be too much of a pain.

I spent a few minutes figuring out how to do it with my system and implemented it in a day. The keg purging method adds almost no time to your day. I should have been doing it all along, but I didn't think that cold-side oxidation was that big of a problem...I was wrong.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 16, 2016, 07:44:12 am
Looking forward to seeing the presentation posted.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: toby on June 16, 2016, 07:45:09 am
I spent a few minutes figuring out how to do it with my system and implemented it in a day. The keg purging method adds almost no time to your day. I should have been doing it all along, but I didn't think that cold-side oxidation was that big of a problem...I was wrong.

Yeah, I've been doing the keg purge trick for years.  I find it extends the 'shelf life' even in the hoppy beers.  I've had hoppy beers that still popped after 3 or 4 months even at ambient temps (I've gotten 2 years easily out of big beers).  I forgot a keg in the storage room after a beer festival with about a gallon of EKG IPA left in it.  Went to grab it to transfer sanitizer to it since I thought it was empty and found liquid in it.  Poured it into a pitcher to see what it was and then remembered.  Unfortunately it was only me and one other guy there that liked British IPAs, so we wound up drinking it over the course of the brew day.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on June 16, 2016, 07:57:33 am
Brewing a German Pils with my new sack of Barke malt on Sunday.  Wish I had some brewtan... Denny, why weren't you handing out little ziplock baggies of it at the conference?  I'm sure the TSA wouldn't have thought that odd.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 16, 2016, 08:08:01 am
Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.

I doubt it. I strongly recommend that you review that seminar and you will see that it doesn't have to be too much of a pain.

I spent a few minutes figuring out how to do it with my system and implemented it in a day. The keg purging method adds almost no time to your day. I should have been doing it all along, but I didn't think that cold-side oxidation was that big of a problem...I was wrong.

Looking forward to that presentation. I've looked into the keg purging method before but lately have been having good luck adding a pinch of SMB into the keg at transfer. What would be your take on that?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on June 16, 2016, 08:17:39 am
Not sure if I would do it with lagers yet, but on ales I am definitely trying some ascorbic acid at kegging before implementing LODO purging.  Readily available at any LHBS.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on June 16, 2016, 08:22:49 am
I don't understand the resistance to the type of purging mentioned. It takes zero money to try and uses less gas than burping a keg at high pressure. I've been purging this way for years.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on June 16, 2016, 08:52:00 am
I don't understand the resistance to the type of purging mentioned. It takes zero money to try and uses less gas than burping a keg at high pressure. I've been purging this way for years.

You mean, filling a keg with star san and pushing it to other kegs with CO2 (and then a bucket)?  That's what I do.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 16, 2016, 09:04:08 am
I don't understand the resistance to the type of purging mentioned. It takes zero money to try and uses less gas than burping a keg at high pressure. I've been purging this way for years.

You mean, filling a keg with star san and pushing it to other kegs with CO2 (and then a bucket)?  That's what I do.


Same here. No resistance, I'm just curious about what Brewtan B can (maybe) do to help with oxidation.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on June 16, 2016, 09:08:48 am
Yes, I'm not really concerned about kegging to be honest.  I purge as mentioned above and transfer using CO2 from the primary.

But, I'd like to see if Brewtan can "improve" my malt flavors.  Not that I've noticed anything wrong with them, but after reading all about low O2 brewing I'm at least curious if things like a recirculating mash can cause HSA on a delicate beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 16, 2016, 09:18:12 am
Puge the kegs by pushing sanitizer, closed transfers from conical to keg, and even clearing tubing of air before transfers. All that to drink Pilsners in the summer.  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 16, 2016, 09:24:40 am
Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.

I doubt it.
I strongly recommend that you review that seminar and you will see that it doesn't have to be too much of a pain.

I spent a few minutes figuring out how to do it with my system and implemented it in a day. The keg purging method adds almost no time to your day. I should have been doing it all along, but I didn't think that cold-side oxidation was that big of a problem...I was wrong.

I'd have to check with Joe to be certain, but I believe it does.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 16, 2016, 09:26:05 am
Brewing a German Pils with my new sack of Barke malt on Sunday.  Wish I had some brewtan... Denny, why weren't you handing out little ziplock baggies of it at the conference?  I'm sure the TSA wouldn't have thought that odd.

Ya know, if either of us had thought of it, I could have introduced you to the guy I got it from.  He had packs he was handing out.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on June 16, 2016, 09:26:57 am
I have not studied the purging method yet, but do commercial breweries do this?  I don't think so.  I guess that's part of my reasoning.  In addition, I use iodophor and I don't think I can just park it in another keg for months.  That said, it is coming fairly clear that O2 reduction at kegging is a critical step and I will be looking at all methods.  Might even do both ascorbic acid AND LODO purge.  Ever since I read about liquid CO2 only being 99% pure I've really started to OCD. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 16, 2016, 09:27:23 am
Not sure if I would do it with lagers yet, but on ales I am definitely trying some ascorbic acid at kegging before implementing LODO purging.  Readily available at any LHBS.

I didn't find any change at all by doing that.  I'll be curious to know what you find.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on June 16, 2016, 09:51:38 am
and even clearing tubing of air before transfers.

Hmm? I didn't think of that. I guess you blow some CO2 through the hose first?

How do you accomplish that with your system? I can't see an easy way, off hand.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on June 16, 2016, 10:00:10 am
Brewing a German Pils with my new sack of Barke malt on Sunday.  Wish I had some brewtan... Denny, why weren't you handing out little ziplock baggies of it at the conference?  I'm sure the TSA wouldn't have thought that odd.

Ya know, if either of us had thought of it, I could have introduced you to the guy I got it from.  He had packs he was handing out.

D'OH!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on June 16, 2016, 10:01:18 am
and even clearing tubing of air before transfers.

Hmm? I didn't think of that. I guess you blow some CO2 through the hose first?

How do you accomplish that with your system? I can't see an easy way, off hand.
I do this as well. I rack using an orange carboy hood. I start with the cane tip in the head space and give a few blasts from my air gun. I then lower it into the beer and give one good blast at 3-5 psi to get the transfer going. I only use gas to stay the transfer, from there is all gravity. My line is short, so even if I didn't do this, there would less than an ounce (by volume) of air in the line.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on June 16, 2016, 10:29:09 am
I don't understand the resistance to the type of purging mentioned. It takes zero money to try and uses less gas than burping a keg at high pressure. I've been purging this way for years.

You mean, filling a keg with star san and pushing it to other kegs with CO2 (and then a bucket)?  That's what I do.

Is this what everyone here is referring to or something else?

 I push full keg of sanitizer out, then close transfer beers from primary with CO2 into out post of keg.  I have noticed solid improvements with regards to oxidation when doing this.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: blair.streit on June 16, 2016, 10:58:45 am
Brewing a German Pils with my new sack of Barke malt on Sunday.  Wish I had some brewtan... Denny, why weren't you handing out little ziplock baggies of it at the conference?  I'm sure the TSA wouldn't have thought that odd.
I doubt they would notice or care.

I work for a company that makes battery powered tracking devices. For years I travelled through airports with prototypes that looked like bombs (exposed wires, etc). Nobody batted an eye and out of 20 such trips I think I was only even once asked what it was (the guy was just curious).

One of those trips I forgot to take my large shampoo bottle out of my shaving kit. That nearly resulted in a cavity search.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 16, 2016, 11:30:33 am
Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.

I doubt it.
I strongly recommend that you review that seminar and you will see that it doesn't have to be too much of a pain.

I spent a few minutes figuring out how to do it with my system and implemented it in a day. The keg purging method adds almost no time to your day. I should have been doing it all along, but I didn't think that cold-side oxidation was that big of a problem...I was wrong.

I'd have to check with Joe to be certain, but I believe it does.
While your at it ask him if there's a recommended dosage per gal and if it's calculated by final amount of beer or total mash/sparge water amount if you don't mind.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 16, 2016, 01:22:51 pm
I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.


Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on June 16, 2016, 02:01:17 pm
I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.


Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Thanks Jon. Another data point would be great.  Looking to hear if this improves malt flavor and maintains freshness longer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 16, 2016, 02:07:41 pm
I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.


Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Thanks Jon. Another data point would be great.  Looking to hear if this improves malt flavor and maintains freshness longer.


Yeah, that's what I'm looking to see. I want to judge clarity using it (Denny says his wort was much clearer), both in wort and the final product. And then I want to judge if there's actual improvement in malt character/overall beer character, and finally judge later on if shelf life is improved.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 16, 2016, 02:26:05 pm
and even clearing tubing of air before transfers.

Hmm? I didn't think of that. I guess you blow some CO2 through the hose first?

How do you accomplish that with your system? I can't see an easy way, off hand.
I fill it with beer, run some into an empty keg that will get dumped and cleaned. Vinnie C. Said that one would not transfer the air in the hoses into the next vessel. Or something like that.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on June 16, 2016, 05:49:21 pm
I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.


Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.
Wow, that took long enough... looking forward to your results.

On the shelf stability note, I usually drink my beers in about 4 weeks after kegging, so I'm not overly worried about oxidation. Rather, once they're tapped, it takes about 4 weeks to drink them. I usually give them 2-3 weeks to carbonate. But there is always room for improvement.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 16, 2016, 06:08:35 pm
I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.


Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.
Wow, that took long enough... looking forward to your results.

On the shelf stability note, I usually drink my beers in about 4 weeks after kegging, so I'm not overly worried about oxidation. Rather, once they're tapped, it takes about 4 weeks to drink them. I usually give them 2-3 weeks to carbonate. But there is always room for improvement.


Yeah, definitely not gonna make any big pronouncements right away. It'll obviously take a while to judge shelf life. Not so long on beer quality.  Can't help but think that if the macros justify spending $$ to use it, there must be some benefit. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: AmandaK on June 17, 2016, 07:06:04 am
Puge the kegs by pushing sanitizer, closed transfers from conical to keg, and even clearing tubing of air before transfers. All that to drink Pilsners in the summer.  :)

Aaaannd now I'm thirsty. Thanks Jeff!  :P
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: RPIScotty on June 17, 2016, 07:14:46 am
Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

Is the idea that yeast suspended in beer can scavenge oxygen in bottled beer now bunk? This is the most commonly stated theory. Thus, beer bottled off a keg that's been fined is suspect to quicker oxidation due to very little yeast being left in suspension. Or I thought that was the idea...

Always has been IMO.  It's pure speculation.  In reality, there isn't enough fermentation going on for that to happen.

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

Kind of like a mini-single serve keg but without the multiple points of oxygen ingress.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on June 17, 2016, 07:46:43 am
You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

That would help prevent additional future oxidation, but it still wouldn't correct existing and previous oxidation damage. It still appears prudent to take measures to prevent all cold-side oxidation. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: RPIScotty on June 17, 2016, 07:52:29 am
You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

That would help prevent additional future oxidation, but it still wouldn't correct existing and previous oxidation damage. It still appears prudent to take measures to prevent all cold-side oxidation.

Yes. My assumption was that packaging was the weak point.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on June 17, 2016, 07:56:05 am
Here's why I'm having a hard time getting on the LODO bandwagon: Don't many historical styles include slight oxidation? Case in point: cask ale. Isn't it considered at it's "peak" when oxidized slightly? Or the Museums- und Traditionsbrauerei Wippra that Kai details:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Museums-_und_Traditionsbrauerei_Wippra

Lots of HSA there.

I guess I can see why you'd want to do LODO for some beers. "IT", an edge for a competition, something that's going to take a long time to drink, etc. But just as diacetyl is appropriate in small amounts in some beers, oxygenation can be appropriate at small levels as well.

By all means though, brew however and with whatever you need to in order to get the results you want. I'm just having a harder time getting worked up over LODO. If I find I need to do that to get the famous "IT" in my lagers, I might. But my British-style beers? I'm really not worried about it at all.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 17, 2016, 03:52:13 pm
I spoke briefly with a chemist and of course he recommended nitrogen flushing throughout the process to be certain O2 is minimized, but I think I am just going to try a batch using: for cold side a Star San purge of kegs on filling, but on the hot side, underletting the mash with strike water after boiling (same with sparge), light stirring of the mash, with a CO2 cap added, no-splash transfer to boil kettle and lighter boil rate.  If these show improvement, I may seek the SMBS and/or Brewtan B additive in the pre-mash to further tweak the hot side process.  If the oxidation occurs on the hot side as fast as it is claimed to occur, then I don't see how the chemical additives will prevent the issue from arising, unless added to the process at the very start - is that what is being done?

How will the RIMS folks keep O2 from entering the mash?  Won't the amount of typical surface activity during recirc cause some O2 uptake?  With the Z - shouldn't it be purged of O2 in each of its containers? (I admit I haven't studied the Z and its process at all).

I look forward to tapping Joe Formanek for some of this stuff, if he can get me a "sample" to try.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: RPIScotty on June 17, 2016, 04:07:25 pm
If the oxidation occurs on the hot side as fast as it is claimed to occur, then I don't see how the chemical additives will prevent the issue from arising, unless added to the process at the very start - is that what is being done?

Yes. SMB is added to preboiled and chilled strike water. No sparge is employed as well.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on June 21, 2016, 11:12:14 am
Brewed a Marzen the other day and added Brewtan to the mash along with smb and preboiled strike water. The wort came out crystal clear unlike my previous Helles Brewtan batch but I think I overdosed it after rereading the manufactures recommended dosage of 2-6g per hl (calculated on volume of final beer) not strike water.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 21, 2016, 12:19:37 pm
Brewed a Marzen the other day and added Brewtan to the mash along with smb and preboiled strike water. The wort came out crystal clear unlike my previous Helles Brewtan batch but I think I overdosed it after rereading the manufactures recommended dosage of 2-6g per hl (calculated on volume of final beer) not strike water.

The Brewtan rep who introduced me to it (who also happens to be a multi NHC winner) said for a 5 gal. batch use 1/4 tsp. in the mash water and 1/2 tsp. mixed in a slurry the last 15 min.  Add the slurry before other finings.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on June 21, 2016, 12:24:33 pm
So I had a chance to taste test my Brewtan beers yesterday.  This was not a blind test, just some samples I took while kegging.  Therefore, these are my impressions, not test results.  I need to brew a few more back to back batches before making any final pronouncements.  That said, here's my first impression...I brewed 2 batches of identical (as much as I could make trhem) German pils and a single batch of Rye IPA.  Comparing the pils, I'd say the Brewtan batch looks slightly clearer.  It has a more pronounced malt flavor than the non Brewtan batch.  The Rye IPA seems to have a much fuller, more present rye and barley presence than it usually does, but remember I don't have a "normal" batch to compare it to.  I will continue testing, but at this point it seems promising.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 21, 2016, 12:29:58 pm
So I had a chance to taste test my Brewtan beers yesterday.  This was not a blind test, just some samples I took while kegging.  Therefore, these are my impressions, not test results.  I need to brew a few more back to back batches before making any final pronouncements.  That said, here's my first impression...I brewed 2 batches of identical (as much as I could make trhem) German pils and a single batch of Rye IPA.  Comparing the pils, I'd say the Brewtan batch looks slightly clearer.  It has a more pronounced malt flavor than the non Brewtan batch.  The Rye IPA seems to have a much fuller, more present rye and barley presence than it usually does, but remember I don't have a "normal" batch to compare it to.  I will continue testing, but at this point it seems promising.




Good to hear some early info, Denny. I'm brewing an O-fest with Brewtan B next weekend, then a German Pils.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on June 21, 2016, 12:36:23 pm
This is good news. I would love to get my hands on some of this even if its just for a couple batches. Also still curious about shelf life.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: AmandaK on June 25, 2016, 05:14:25 pm
AHA put up the conference seminars, for those curious.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/resources/conference-seminars/ (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/resources/conference-seminars/)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 03, 2016, 01:04:28 pm
This was my first batch using Brewtan B, so no big pronouncements to be made. But I'm encouraged. The clarity of the mash runoff and of the wort I used for OG reading was noticeably better than normal for me. Most notably, the flavor of the wort sample was beyond belief. Granted, I used all Weyermann Barke malts (in a Marzen) for the first time, which seem to be of very high quality. But I've never had a wort sample with that much complex malt character. Really looking forward to assessing the beer, in overall quality, clarity, and shelf life.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: klickitat jim on July 03, 2016, 04:10:22 pm
Anyone know the difference between brewtan A and brewtan B? I have some of both.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: klickitat jim on July 03, 2016, 04:13:09 pm
Never mind, googled it. The A stuff is tanal A and is for keeping heffes hazy. Hmm, maybe juicy beers too?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 03, 2016, 04:17:27 pm
Anyone know the difference between brewtan A and brewtan B? I have some of both.


I think the main difference is that A is a finer particle that sometimes needs to be filtered out to be clear. B claims to be a higher molecular weight particle that settles out easily. Seems to be true because my mash runnings today were clear and postboil wort dropped clear in the kettle really quickly. Past that I'm not sure if there are any other differences.

Edit - Reading your post, it definitely looks like A would make a hazy beer if it weren't filtered.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 05, 2016, 06:57:35 am
Good to hear fellas.

I did my best at a Low DO batch on Sunday with a faux pilsner (with 1007 because I want to top crop). The wort was clear and had the nastiest looking egg drop soup look I've ever seen; unbelievable amount of hot break. I'm really curious as to how this turns out. It really only added about 30 minutes to my brew session, so no big deal if it makes a noticeable difference. Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on July 05, 2016, 01:30:28 pm
Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in.... ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 05, 2016, 03:47:53 pm
Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in.... ;)
Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 05, 2016, 03:54:51 pm
Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in.... ;)
Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...


So you preboiled/chilled the mash and sparge waters. Did you use Campden? Low, short boil? Cap the mash? I ask because I purposely kept my routine the same while using the Brewtan, except that I soaked my copper IC in Starsan before adding to the kettle. It did appear to remove most of the oxide layer which I thought was the real offender with the copper. Curious to see how your beer, Denny's and mine come out.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 05, 2016, 04:05:39 pm
Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in.... ;)
Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...


So you preboiled/chilled the mash and sparge waters. Did you use Campden? Low, short boil? Cap the mash? I ask because I purposely kept my routine the same while using the Brewtan, except that I soaked my copper IC in Starsan before adding to the kettle. It did appear to remove most of the oxide layer which I thought was the real offender with the copper. Curious to see how your beer, Denny's and mine come out.
I preboiled and used 2 campden tablets in the mash and sparge water (15qt each). I think 2 campden tablets is about 100mg if I'm remembering correctly.
I read that removing the oxide layer with starsan is one thing, but it also lets more copper into the wort...so not sure it's necessarily beneficial as either way it can oxidize...I don't know. Hoping the SMB did some work there. But it's probably f*cked anyway since I didn't add the SMB until after the preboiled water was chilled to about 170F. I boiled for 5-7 minutes, vigorously.

Either way, I've never seen hot break like that before. I have to think that's a good sign...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 05, 2016, 04:10:27 pm
Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in.... ;)
Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...


So you preboiled/chilled the mash and sparge waters. Did you use Campden? Low, short boil? Cap the mash? I ask because I purposely kept my routine the same while using the Brewtan, except that I soaked my copper IC in Starsan before adding to the kettle. It did appear to remove most of the oxide layer which I thought was the real offender with the copper. Curious to see how your beer, Denny's and mine come out.
I preboiled and used 2 campden tablets in the mash and sparge water (15qt each). I think 2 campden tablets is about 100mg if I'm remembering correctly.
I read that removing the oxide layer with starsan is one thing, but it also lets more copper into the wort...so not sure it's necessarily beneficial as either way it can oxidize...I don't know. Hoping the SMB did some work there. But it's probably f*cked anyway since I didn't add the SMB until after the preboiled water was chilled to about 170F. I boiled for 5-7 minutes, vigorously.

Either way, I've never seen hot break like that before. I have to think that's a good sign...



I would think it's a good sign. Well regardless, I'm curious to see how these beers come out. If it's something I can do fairly easily, without much lost time, I'm on board!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 05, 2016, 04:31:14 pm
Yeah, it only added about 30 minutes to my brew session...no big deal at all since I got used to doing the super long mashes for lagers (which I've since quit doing). If you get the water ready and boiling immediately after mashing in for the sparge, it's ready pretty much right when you need it for sparging.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 06, 2016, 07:42:49 am
Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in.... ;)
Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...


So you preboiled/chilled the mash and sparge waters. Did you use Campden? Low, short boil? Cap the mash? I ask because I purposely kept my routine the same while using the Brewtan, except that I soaked my copper IC in Starsan before adding to the kettle. It did appear to remove most of the oxide layer which I thought was the real offender with the copper. Curious to see how your beer, Denny's and mine come out.

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions (I am not a chemist, but that is what I have been reading). Bamforth in his last Beersmith podcast said they found that dry hopped beers have higher levels of Manganese, and that may be why dry hopped beers fall off quickly. They were going to look at Manganese levels in different hops.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 06, 2016, 07:54:44 am
Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions (I am not a chemist, but that is what I have been reading). Bamforth in his last Beersmith podcast said they found that dry hopped beers have higher levels of Manganese, and that may be why dry hopped beers fall off quickly. They were going to look at Manganese levels in different hops.


Good info. I thought I'd read that the oxide layer was a big part of the problem as opposed to the actual copper. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 06, 2016, 08:47:18 am
Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions (I am not a chemist, but that is what I have been reading). Bamforth in his last Beersmith podcast said they found that dry hopped beers have higher levels of Manganese, and that may be why dry hopped beers fall off quickly. They were going to look at Manganese levels in different hops.


Good info. I thought I'd read that the oxide layer was a big part of the problem as opposed to the actual copper. I stand corrected.
That is good info indeed. Thanks for posting, Jeff.

I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller. I'm not in a rush, but it's on my list along with a SS brew bucket.
So far, after skimming the yeast and top cropping, this beer doesn't smell or seem any different than usual. So hard to tell at this stage though as it's only been 2 or 3 days since I pitched the yeast. Honestly, I'm not expecting it to be any different.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 06, 2016, 09:00:52 am
I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.


I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 06, 2016, 09:04:33 am
I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.


I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.
Interesting. It's good to have in small amounts in lagers, but other styles, not so much. But it seems weird that simply switching from copper to stainless would lead to sulfur bombs. Hmmm...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 06, 2016, 09:05:31 am
I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.


I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.
Interesting. It's good to have in small amounts in lagers, but other styles, not so much. But it seems weird that simply switching from copper to stainless would lead to sulfur bombs. Hmmm...


I don't remember these being wit or hefe strains where sulfur is common at first. Maybe he'll chime in.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 06, 2016, 09:07:46 am
That's true. I've read on the GBF that people are getting sulfur but they don't say it's a huge amount or anything.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 06, 2016, 09:33:56 am
Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions (I am not a chemist, but that is what I have been reading). Bamforth in his last Beersmith podcast said they found that dry hopped beers have higher levels of Manganese, and that may be why dry hopped beers fall off quickly. They were going to look at Manganese levels in different hops.


Good info. I thought I'd read that the oxide layer was a big part of the problem as opposed to the actual copper. I stand corrected.
Both are issues, from what I can tell.

Edit - yeast like a little copper and zinc for their health.

Then there are the old small family breweries that still have copper kettles and copper cool ships (not for spontaneous fermentation, the wort is sent to the chiller at >60C). Some of those make fantastic beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 06, 2016, 09:34:33 am
Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in.... ;)
Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...

That's usually more of a sign of nailing your pH.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 06, 2016, 09:37:01 am

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions

This has been a topic of discussion in the Brewtan thread on the Brews-Bros. forum.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on July 06, 2016, 09:53:05 am

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions

This has been a topic of discussion in the Brewtan thread on the Brews-Bros. forum.

Which is interesting, because I think the copper in the Belgian breweries is important for creating some of the mellow malt and hop flavors, the IT if you will, of their beers.  One man's trash...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 06, 2016, 10:28:30 am

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions

This has been a topic of discussion in the Brewtan thread on the Brews-Bros. forum.

Which is interesting, because I think the copper in the Belgian breweries is important for creating some of the mellow malt and hop flavors, the IT if you will, of their beers.  One man's trash...

I have been told there is a lot of copper in the PU brewery, and they run off the lauter tuns via grants, so plenty of HSA. Never been, but hope to tour there soon.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 06, 2016, 10:33:58 am
Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in.... ;)
Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...

That's usually more of a sign of nailing your pH.
Interesting...using bru'n water with RO water over the years, never been like that. It was huge chunks of white protein coagulation in the boil, not just small like white floaties like before.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: blair.streit on July 07, 2016, 09:08:58 am
I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.
I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.
Interesting. It's good to have in small amounts in lagers, but other styles, not so much. But it seems weird that simply switching from copper to stainless would lead to sulfur bombs. Hmmm...
I'll use this as the opportunity for my monthly plug that I still think a large portion of "it" is just higher sulfur, which cuts through malt sweetness and makes otherwise flabby beers really crisp.

I'd love to concoct an appropriate mix of sulfur (mostly sulfur dioxide with a small touch of hydrogen sulfide) and do a side by side of the same beer with one sample being bubbled with the sulfur mix for a while.

I don't doubt that the long-term antioxidant impact of these chemicals could play a significant role as well, but a fair amount of this really feels like a "spicing" issue to me.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 07, 2016, 09:12:36 am
I'll use this as the opportunity for my monthly plug that I still think a large portion of "it" is just higher sulfur, which cuts through malt sweetness and makes otherwise flabby beers really crisp.

I'd love to concoct an appropriate mix of sulfur (mostly sulfur dioxide with a small touch of hydrogen sulfide) and do a side by side of the same beer with one sample being bubbled with the sulfur mix for a while.

I don't doubt that the long-term antioxidant impact of these chemicals could play a significant role as well, but a fair amount of this really feels like a "spicing" issue to me.

Interesting observation and I've wondered the same thing.  But until someone can tell me what "IT" is, I'm not gonna worry about if I have "IT".  Hell, until that happens, I don't even know if I want "IT"!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on July 07, 2016, 10:15:41 am
I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.
I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.
Interesting. It's good to have in small amounts in lagers, but other styles, not so much. But it seems weird that simply switching from copper to stainless would lead to sulfur bombs. Hmmm...
I'll use this as the opportunity for my monthly plug that I still think a large portion of "it" is just higher sulfur, which cuts through malt sweetness and makes otherwise flabby beers really crisp.

I'd love to concoct an appropriate mix of sulfur (mostly sulfur dioxide with a small touch of hydrogen sulfide) and do a side by side of the same beer with one sample being bubbled with the sulfur mix for a while.

I don't doubt that the long-term antioxidant impact of these chemicals could play a significant role as well, but a fair amount of this really feels like a "spicing" issue to me.

I also think that's a part of it. 

So, extra metabisulfite creates sulfur dioxide in the wort, and then not using a copper chiller prevents the removal.  Seems plausable!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 07, 2016, 10:44:11 am
I'll use this as the opportunity for my monthly plug that I still think a large portion of "it" is just higher sulfur, which cuts through malt sweetness and makes otherwise flabby beers really crisp.

I'd love to concoct an appropriate mix of sulfur (mostly sulfur dioxide with a small touch of hydrogen sulfide) and do a side by side of the same beer with one sample being bubbled with the sulfur mix for a while.

I don't doubt that the long-term antioxidant impact of these chemicals could play a significant role as well, but a fair amount of this really feels like a "spicing" issue to me.

Interesting observation and I've wondered the same thing.  But until someone can tell me what "IT" is, I'm not gonna worry about if I have "IT".  Hell, until that happens, I don't even know if I want "IT"!
It's a lingering malt freshness, Denny. Most German/Czech beers have it as well as some Belgian beers (in my opinion). It's a fresher tasting quality to the malt character. We've been over this!

Interesting observation on the sulfur character... something to consider, I think. I'm not going to be getting rid of my copper chiller just yet though; although I do like the idea of stainless steel, so it's definitely on my radar.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on July 07, 2016, 11:17:47 am
I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.


Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Mine took 12 days to arrive, which seems pretty good considering.  I just made a few changes to my system and process, so I'm probably going to hold off on experimenting with the Brewtan until I get everything dialed in again.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on July 07, 2016, 11:33:23 am

It's a lingering malt freshness, Denny. Most German/Czech beers have it as well as some Belgian beers (in my opinion). It's a fresher tasting quality to the malt character. We've been over this!


This is interesting because I think Belgian beers also have an IT that it not just due to yeast; however, they routinely have grants, oxidizing mash filters (ancient 100 year old steel plates with cloth in between), and copper everywhere.  And if anything, the modern Belgian breweries that I visited (Bavik, Bush/Trolls) had less of IT. 

So, either a) German IT and Belgian IT are different (and they very well could be)
or b) It's not due to oxidation.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 07, 2016, 11:42:11 am
I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.


Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Mine took 12 days to arrive, which seems pretty good considering.  I just made a few changes to my system and process, so I'm probably going to hold off on experimenting with the Brewtan until I get everything dialed in again.


Yeah, that's pretty quick. My first order never came, the last one took 3 weeks. Maybe I'll get lucky next time. And I purposely didn't change anything with my procedure when I used it, so hopefully I can assess fairly.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 07, 2016, 11:45:00 am
It's a lingering malt freshness, Denny. Most German/Czech beers have it as well as some Belgian beers (in my opinion). It's a fresher tasting quality to the malt character. We've been over this!



I get that from beers other than German ones.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 07, 2016, 12:27:41 pm
This is interesting because I think Belgian beers also have an IT that it not just due to yeast; however, they routinely have grants, oxidizing mash filters (ancient 100 year old steel plates with cloth in between), and copper everywhere.  And if anything, the modern Belgian breweries that I visited (Bavik, Bush/Trolls) had less of IT. 

So, either a) German IT and Belgian IT are different (and they very well could be)
or b) It's not due to oxidation.


Yeah, that's pretty hard to discount. I'm curious to see what (if any) effect Brewtan has on my beer, but it's hard not to think about breweries that still use old world methods and make outstanding beers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on July 07, 2016, 01:24:36 pm
I could be wrong, but I don't think it was ever stated that the flagship examples of all or most classic styles are/were brewed lodo.
 
Rather, a group of people attempting to re-create at home a particular flavor they tasted in a subset of commercial beers, mostly German lagers, are stating that lodo brewing is the key to achieving it.

Assuming they are right doesn’t mean that the classic Belgian, English, or American styles are commercially brewed lodo or need to be brewed that way in order for homebrewers to replicate them.
 
On the other hand, it doesn’t exclude the possibility that brewing these other styles lodo is worth exploring.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on July 07, 2016, 02:36:36 pm
And, I guess sulfur is something that's (mostly) unique to lagers, so I can see where the copper thing would make a difference there.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 07, 2016, 03:46:49 pm
I could be wrong, but I don't think it was ever stated that the flagship examples of all or most classic styles are/were brewed lodo.
 
Rather, a group of people attempting to re-create at home a particular flavor they tasted in a subset of commercial beers, mostly German lagers, are stating that lodo brewing is the key to achieving it.

Assuming they are right doesn’t mean that the classic Belgian, English, or American styles are commercially brewed lodo or need to be brewed that way in order for homebrewers to replicate them.
 
On the other hand, it doesn’t exclude the possibility that brewing these other styles lodo is worth exploring.



Agreed.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 07, 2016, 06:12:18 pm
I apologize but I didn't have the chance to read through this whole thread.  I got information about brewtan from Denny awhile back and ordered it from iBrew in Australia.  Since I got it, I have made SEVEN batches of beer with it (helles, two pale ales, pilsner, dark lager, blonde ale and an "American Lager").  I have tasted three of the those.  My experience so far is that it has softened my beers and smoothed them out noticeably.  The word "soft" is not descriptive enough.  My pre-brewtan beers seemed to have a bit of harsh sharpness to them and I was constantly trying to use distilled water to dilute, use only calcium chloride instead of gypsum, etc.  These brewtan beers are so soft that I could now see using more sulfate which is new territory for me.  Can anyone tell me what brewtan is doing?  Is it cutting down on oxidation?  Is it bonding with metals in my water to prevent them from contributing flavor to the beer?  There is a HUGE difference in my beers made with brewtan.  The hoppier beers really allow the hops to shine and the malt character is so smooth, clean and clear.  The maltier beers like the helles are just fine but I need to brew those again and bump up the sulfate because these are malt bombs. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 07, 2016, 06:39:37 pm
I apologize but I didn't have the chance to read through this whole thread.  I got information about brewtan from Denny awhile back and ordered it from iBrew in Australia.  Since I got it, I have made SEVEN batches of beer with it (helles, two pale ales, pilsner, dark lager, blonde ale and an "American Lager").  I have tasted three of the those.  My experience so far is that it has softened my beers and smoothed them out noticeably.  The word "soft" is not descriptive enough.  My pre-brewtan beers seemed to have a bit of harsh sharpness to them and I was constantly trying to use distilled water to dilute, use only calcium chloride instead of gypsum, etc.  These brewtan beers are so soft that I could now see using more sulfate which is new territory for me.  Can anyone tell me what brewtan is doing?  Is it cutting down on oxidation?  Is it bonding with metals in my water to prevent them from contributing flavor to the beer?  There is a HUGE difference in my beers made with brewtan.  The hoppier beers really allow the hops to shine and the malt character is so smooth, clean and clear.  The maltier beers like the helles are just fine but I need to brew those again and bump up the sulfate because these are malt bombs.

Thanks for the report Ken!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 07, 2016, 06:48:41 pm
There is a HUGE difference in my beers made with brewtan.  The hoppier beers really allow the hops to shine and the malt character is so smooth, clean and clear.  The maltier beers like the helles are just fine but I need to brew those again and bump up the sulfate because these are malt bombs. 


Great info, thanks. As for the hoppy beers, I wonder if the supposed antioxidant nature of Brewtan B helps protect the hop character from oxidation to a greater degree. I'm glad I picked an O-fest and a hoppy German pils to use Brewtan on first, so I can eval a malty then a hoppy beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 07, 2016, 08:39:34 pm
There is a HUGE difference in my beers made with brewtan.  The hoppier beers really allow the hops to shine and the malt character is so smooth, clean and clear.  The maltier beers like the helles are just fine but I need to brew those again and bump up the sulfate because these are malt bombs. 


Great info, thanks. As for the hoppy beers, I wonder if the supposed antioxidant nature of Brewtan B helps protect the hop character from oxidation to a greater degree. I'm glad I picked an O-fest and a hoppy German pils to use Brewtan on first, so I can eval a malty then a hoppy beer.
That's exactly what I was curious about too... what would a helles be like but also what would a hoppy Amarillo-Citra pale ale be like?  I am drinking a pilsner I made with S-189 (I'm not into dry yeast but a number of people suggested it) and some Magnum to bitter and then late Spalt and Hallertau Mittelfruh to about 35 IBUs.  The first glass was cloudy and I'm now on glass #3 and it's really clear.  Not sure if that's the yeast, the brewtan or the fact that I gelled it cold before I carbed it.  This one would not need more sulfate.  The late hops balance everything pretty nicely.  But I still would really like to know what's happening with brewtan.  What is it doing?  How does it impact one brewer differently than another?  I admit that I paid no attention to oxidation until after my beers were fermented.  I splashed my way through my brewday... pouring, stirring, recircing, running off, racking, etc. and I think brewtan must be doing something on that front.  But I would still like to know what [specifically] it's doing to impact my beers so profoundly.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 08, 2016, 07:08:32 am

It's a lingering malt freshness, Denny. Most German/Czech beers have it as well as some Belgian beers (in my opinion). It's a fresher tasting quality to the malt character. We've been over this!


This is interesting because I think Belgian beers also have an IT that it not just due to yeast; however, they routinely have grants, oxidizing mash filters (ancient 100 year old steel plates with cloth in between), and copper everywhere.  And if anything, the modern Belgian breweries that I visited (Bavik, Bush/Trolls) had less of IT. 

So, either a) German IT and Belgian IT are different (and they very well could be)
or b) It's not due to oxidation.
All good points, Chris. And I really don't know...whatever it is, I like it and haven't found it in my beers or any American brewed beers. So either they're doing something different or it's the travel time from there to here causing that flavor to happen.
I'm in a weird position on this whole thing though. I feel like I'm kind of on the fence between IT and fvck IT.

Really glad that Ken posted his experience with Brewtan B. I'm wanting to get my hands on some now to try it...not wanting to wait for it to come from Australia though.
Thanks for posting your experience, Ken!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on July 08, 2016, 08:36:28 am
I apologize but I didn't have the chance to read through this whole thread.  I got information about brewtan from Denny awhile back and ordered it from iBrew in Australia.  Since I got it, I have made SEVEN batches of beer with it (helles, two pale ales, pilsner, dark lager, blonde ale and an "American Lager").  I have tasted three of the those.  My experience so far is that it has softened my beers and smoothed them out noticeably.  The word "soft" is not descriptive enough.  My pre-brewtan beers seemed to have a bit of harsh sharpness to them and I was constantly trying to use distilled water to dilute, use only calcium chloride instead of gypsum, etc.  These brewtan beers are so soft that I could now see using more sulfate which is new territory for me.  Can anyone tell me what brewtan is doing?  Is it cutting down on oxidation?  Is it bonding with metals in my water to prevent them from contributing flavor to the beer?  There is a HUGE difference in my beers made with brewtan.  The hoppier beers really allow the hops to shine and the malt character is so smooth, clean and clear.  The maltier beers like the helles are just fine but I need to brew those again and bump up the sulfate because these are malt bombs.
Any lack of head or head retention? I'm a couple weeks out before sampling my first Brewtan beer but I've read a couple reviews of Brewtan reducing head.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 08, 2016, 09:44:23 am
Any lack of head or head retention? I'm a couple weeks out before sampling my first Brewtan beer but I've read a couple reviews of Brewtan reducing head.

I haven't noticed that on any of the Brewtan beers I've made.  Is there a reason Brewtan would be suspected of reducing foam?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 08, 2016, 09:52:05 am
I haven't noticed that on any of the Brewtan beers I've made. 


Good to hear. I wouldn't have thought so.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on July 08, 2016, 10:13:51 am

I haven't noticed that on any of the Brewtan beers I've made.  Is there a reason Brewtan would be suspected of reducing foam?

According to the literature, it is effective at dropping out certain proteins.  Though the spec sheet claims that it does not impact foam positive ones.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 08, 2016, 10:17:17 am

I haven't noticed that on any of the Brewtan beers I've made.  Is there a reason Brewtan would be suspected of reducing foam?

According to the literature, it is effective at dropping out certain proteins.  Though the spec sheet claims that it does not impact foam positive ones.


Yep. I'd be curious to see if he used the dosage Denny quoted, or a higher one.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on July 08, 2016, 10:18:09 am
Any lack of head or head retention? I'm a couple weeks out before sampling my first Brewtan beer but I've read a couple reviews of Brewtan reducing head.

Is there a reason Brewtan would be suspected of reducing foam?

(narcout beat me to it) If your beers do not have issues with excess proteins and you are adding a form of tannic acid which removes protein you could be be removing proteins which contribute to head formation or maybe these guys used too much?  (hoosier) You guys are fast!  ;D

I still tend to think IT is simply brewing with extremely fresh malt...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 08, 2016, 10:23:32 am
Any lack of head or head retention? I'm a couple weeks out before sampling my first Brewtan beer but I've read a couple reviews of Brewtan reducing head.

Is there a reason Brewtan would be suspected of reducing foam?

(narcout beat me to it) If your beers do not have issues with excess proteins and you are adding a form of tannic acid which removes protein you could be be removing proteins which contribute to head formation or maybe these guys used too much?  (hoosier) You guys are fast!  ;D

I still tend to think IT is simply brewing with extremely fresh malt...
Might be part of it, but it's a matter of keeping the precious malt flavors in the mash and wort and not letting them escape via mashing in with vigorous stirring, boiling too hard, etc. But hey, I'm still the guy in the middle of all this, seeing both sides equally clear. Rather difficult position to be in as it's created a sort of internal struggle as to how to move my brewing forward.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 08, 2016, 10:28:22 am
Might be part of it, but it's a matter of keeping the precious malt flavors in the mash and wort and not letting them escape via mashing in with vigorous stirring, boiling too hard, etc. But hey, I'm still the guy in the middle of all this, seeing both sides equally clear. Rather difficult position to be in as it's created a sort of internal struggle as to how to move my brewing forward.

Assuming that happens....I'm not convinced.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 08, 2016, 10:52:01 am
Might be part of it, but it's a matter of keeping the precious malt flavors in the mash and wort and not letting them escape via mashing in with vigorous stirring, boiling too hard, etc. But hey, I'm still the guy in the middle of all this, seeing both sides equally clear. Rather difficult position to be in as it's created a sort of internal struggle as to how to move my brewing forward.

Assuming that happens....I'm not convinced.


Denny, based on Ken's and your impressions that the malt character in these beers seems more pronounced and better, it does seem like Brewtan is preventing some oxidizing of malt compounds. But maybe it's more a function of Brewtan dropping out the proteins so effectively and 'cleaning' up the flavors.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 08, 2016, 10:59:27 am
Fresh malt? Augustiner has their own Malting's, that is fresh! Good luck getting some of that malt.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 08, 2016, 11:01:03 am

Denny, based on Ken's and your impressions that the malt character in these beers seems more pronounced and better, it does seem like Brewtan is preventing some oxidizing of malt compounds. But maybe it's more a function of Brewtan dropping out the proteins so effectively and 'cleaning' up the flavors.

Yeah, that's possible.  But I'm not jumping to any conclusions until I do more side by side testing and talk to Joe.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on July 08, 2016, 11:02:39 am
Might be part of it, but it's a matter of keeping the precious malt flavors in the mash and wort and not letting them escape via mashing in with vigorous stirring, boiling too hard, etc. But hey, I'm still the guy in the middle of all this, seeing both sides equally clear. Rather difficult position to be in as it's created a sort of internal struggle as to how to move my brewing forward.

I am in the middle too and anxiously awaiting the KISSLODO method  ;D.  I tend to look at it this way: Fresh malt has an abundance of IT so you can get way with abusing it.  This would also explain how some obvious non LODO breweries are achieving IT.  That's my hunch at least.  Fortunately, I am mainly a hop head and polyclar is rocking for me.   8)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 08, 2016, 11:07:32 am
I am in the middle too and anxiously awaiting the KISSLODO method  ;D.


My approach, too.  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 08, 2016, 11:34:19 am
Guys:  No impact on head formation and stability that I can see.  None. 

To expand on what I have done a little:  I did pick up an SS chiller because there was some talk about copper and its oxidative characters (use that information how you wish).  I also slightly increased my mash volume and slightly lowered my batch sparge volume (by ½ gallon) to make the sparge smaller.  I am still carefully dialing in my mash and sparge pH and watching the kettle pH.  I also started to condition my malt.  I use distilled water in a fine spray bottle and use about an ounce or so of water for 9-10 pounds of malt.  The water hitting that fresh grain makes me want to eat it with a spoon.  I mix it, let it sit and then mill it a few minutes later.  It's supposed to leave husks more intact, cut down on tannin pickup and probably cut down on oxidation... can't remember all of the proposed benefits.  I also used some Weyermann Barke pilsner in some of these helles and pilsner batches.  Wow, what a great character if you just pop a few kernels in your mouth.  All of that said, I think the brewtan has made the most difference.  I'm using ¼ tsp in the mash water and then ½ tsp mixed with some bottled water and then that liquid is added to the boil with 10-15 minutes left.  The beer is softer, smoother, cleaner, clearer (clearer-tasting... not necessarily visually although these brewtan beers ARE clear too).  The finish is smoother and more refreshing.  Malt and hop flavors pop and are more identifiable.  Again, not sure what the brewtan is doing and whether I'm seeing a bigger impact because my pre-brewtan beers were oxidized, something is up in my water that brewtan addresses or what.  Not sure but I'm digging it, no question.  Cheers gang.

EDIT:  Someone on another board (a chemist) mentioned that brewtan could help take copper and iron out of the way when brewing (acts as a chelating agent... I'm in deep water here) which I know nothing about.  I went to my Ward Labs analysis and saw that I have less then .3ppm of iron and less then 1ppm of copper.  I'm not sure how much is too much for brewing but my numbers seem low.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on July 08, 2016, 12:16:02 pm
I also started to condition my malt.

Did you notice any drop in efficiency from the conditioning? 

EDIT:  Someone on another board (a chemist) mentioned that brewtan could help take copper and iron out of the way when brewing (acts as a chelating agent... I'm in deep water here) which I know nothing about.

The product spec sheet posted at the beginning of this thread gives a quick overview on this.  I also posted links to some more in depth articles in reply #563 of the below thread if you are interested.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24675.555
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 08, 2016, 12:18:05 pm
Might be part of it, but it's a matter of keeping the precious malt flavors in the mash and wort and not letting them escape via mashing in with vigorous stirring, boiling too hard, etc. But hey, I'm still the guy in the middle of all this, seeing both sides equally clear. Rather difficult position to be in as it's created a sort of internal struggle as to how to move my brewing forward.
This would also explain how some obvious non LODO breweries are achieving IT.  That's my hunch at least.  Fortunately, I am mainly a hop head and polyclar is rocking for me.   8)
I've not tasted that flavor in any American breweries...

For now, I'm messing with at least preboiling with some SMB, but not spunding...apparently it's all worthless if you don't do that. So that's kind of where I'm struggling with all this. I just wonder how the German breweries do it, how they bottle/can and keg...they don't spund those. They spund in the fermenters, but to keep the O2 out of the packaging process, I've no idea. So that's kind of where my internal struggle comes from...how and why does it have to be ALL OR NOTHING?


I condition all my malt and have found it's helped my efficiency because I can crush finer while keeping the husks in tact.

I'm also curious to try Brewtan B with the LowDO process. I'd have to think that any little bit counts though. I have to think there's a difference between keeping the O2 out as much as possible versus dumping 170F strike water into mashtun, etc. But I don't know...want to keep trying it out to see how I like it. Only adds about 30 minutes to my brew session to preboil everything. So no big deal.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on July 09, 2016, 08:35:02 am
Fresh malt? Augustiner has their own Malting's, that is fresh! Good luck getting some of that malt.
Exactly;  Might be blasphemy to some but I would wager using a healthy percentage of freshly made malt at home would kick things up a notch.  I also suspect warming up store bought grains in the oven at 170F for an hour or 2 would work.  Kinda sorta like nuking a day old doughnut back to life  ;D 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on July 09, 2016, 04:40:45 pm
I just finished brewing a batch in which I used Brewtan B at a rate of .1 gram per gallon in the mash and the same at the end of the boil.  I didn't really notice anything different in terms of break formation.

It did turn the strike water a bit milky.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: klickitat jim on July 10, 2016, 06:50:03 am
I just finished brewing a batch in which I used Brewtan B at a rate of .1 gram per gallon in the mash and the same at the end of the boil.  I didn't really notice anything different in terms of break formation.

It did turn the strike water a bit milky.
I tried it out on my recent brews, but .25g per gallon at mashin and at boil 5min. We shall see...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 10, 2016, 10:22:46 am
Where did you guys get the amount recommendations?  Why not follow Joe's recommendations?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on July 10, 2016, 10:58:10 am
The product spec sheet lists the recommended dosage as 2-4 grams/hectolitre in the mash and 2-5 grams/hectolitre in the boil.

That's approximately .075-.151 grams/gallon in the mash and .075-.189 grams/gallon in the boil.  I shot for the middle of the range with .1 grams/gallon in both mash and boil.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 10, 2016, 11:19:27 am
The product spec sheet lists the recommended dosage as 2-4 grams/hectolitre in the mash and 2-5 grams/hectolitre in the boil.

That's approximately .075-.151 grams/gallon in the mash and .075-.189 grams/gallon in the boil.  I shot for the middle of the range with .1 grams/gallon in both mash and boil.

Try what Joe recommends...1/4 tsp. (per 5 gal.) in strike water and 1/2 tsp. (per 5 gal.) in a slurry at 15 min. to flameout. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on July 10, 2016, 11:25:35 am
Try what Joe recommends...1/4 tsp. (per 5 gal.) in strike water and 1/2 tsp. (per 5 gal.) in a slurry at 15 min. to flameout.

Ok, I'll try that on my next batch.

By the way, has anyone noticed an effect on mash pH?  Mine came in a bit low yesterday (5.2 vs. Bru'n water projection of 5.36). 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on July 10, 2016, 11:58:52 am
The product spec sheet lists the recommended dosage as 2-4 grams/hectolitre in the mash and 2-5 grams/hectolitre in the boil.

That's approximately .075-.151 grams/gallon in the mash and .075-.189 grams/gallon in the boil.  I shot for the middle of the range with .1 grams/gallon in both mash and boil.

Try what Joe recommends...1/4 tsp. (per 5 gal.) in strike water and 1/2 tsp. (per 5 gal.) in a slurry at 15 min. to flameout.
This may be confusing to some people. The manufactures dosage specs and i believe Joe's recommendation is per volume of final beer not amount of mash or strike water? I make 3 gal batches full volume no sparge and my strike water is 5 gal. My first Brewtan batch I overdosed thinking strike water instead of final volume, probably why my Helles wort looked like orange juice.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: charles1968 on July 10, 2016, 12:46:25 pm

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

Priming sugar is an easier solution as you don't need to guesstimate when to rack. I'm wondering if anyone has compared primed, naturally carbonated kegs to force carbed kegs to see if one stales faster than the other.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on July 10, 2016, 12:49:11 pm

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

Priming sugar is an easier solution as you don't need to guesstimate when to rack. I'm wondering if anyone has compared primed, naturally carbonated kegs to force carbed kegs to see if one stales faster than the other.

Interesting idea. Would probably also vary based on kegging methods. ie - closed transfers from primary vs open keg lid racking.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 10, 2016, 01:36:29 pm
Try what Joe recommends...1/4 tsp. (per 5 gal.) in strike water and 1/2 tsp. (per 5 gal.) in a slurry at 15 min. to flameout.

Ok, I'll try that on my next batch.

By the way, has anyone noticed an effect on mash pH?  Mine came in a bit low yesterday (5.2 vs. Bru'n water projection of 5.36).

This has been discussed extensively on Brews-Bros. and no one has seen it have an effect on pH.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 10, 2016, 05:37:27 pm

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

Priming sugar is an easier solution as you don't need to guesstimate when to rack. I'm wondering if anyone has compared primed, naturally carbonated kegs to force carbed kegs to see if one stales faster than the other.
I believe they have and found that it doesn't do it and the only way, still, is to spund.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on July 10, 2016, 06:12:46 pm
I believe they have and found that it doesn't do it and the only way, still, is to spund.

I think some people on the GBF have had success using priming solution or adding some fresh wort at kegging if they miss the transfer window for spunding.

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: charles1968 on July 11, 2016, 01:37:12 am

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

Priming sugar is an easier solution as you don't need to guesstimate when to rack. I'm wondering if anyone has compared primed, naturally carbonated kegs to force carbed kegs to see if one stales faster than the other.
I believe they have and found that it doesn't do it and the only way, still, is to spund.

Is spunding the main carbonation method used by German brewers? From quick googling I discovered some brewers force carb but comply with reinheitsgebot by using CO2 collected from fermentation. I wonder if those beers taste any different from traditional methods.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 11, 2016, 06:39:23 am

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

Priming sugar is an easier solution as you don't need to guesstimate when to rack. I'm wondering if anyone has compared primed, naturally carbonated kegs to force carbed kegs to see if one stales faster than the other.
I believe they have and found that it doesn't do it and the only way, still, is to spund.

Is spunding the main carbonation method used by German brewers? From quick googling I discovered some brewers force carb but comply with reinheitsgebot by using CO2 collected from fermentation. I wonder if those beers taste any different from traditional methods.
Good question. As far as I know, the breweries that are often referenced (Ayinger, Weihenstephaner, Augustiner...) are the ones that are spunding at the end of fermentation. Those are the ones being used as benchmarks.

I believe they have and found that it doesn't do it and the only way, still, is to spund.

I think some people on the GBF have had success using priming solution or adding some fresh wort at kegging if they miss the transfer window for spunding.


Well, that's good news. I'm going to give it a go for sure.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 14, 2016, 10:01:06 pm
I would love to hear some responses from those who sample some of their first brewtan beers.  Denny and one other brewer from Brews-Bros (Chils) has reported back after sampling their brewtan beers.  Denny is cautious but seems to think that "something is happening" which is encouraging and Chils response was "This stuff is definitely changing something in the beer. The non-brewtan batch still has some harshness to it." and he was comparing a brewtan batch vs. a non-brewtan batch of the same recipe.  Again, some understanding of what the product does and how it may impact different beers or brewers (oxidation, water composition, etc) would be great.  I hate mysteries.  :P  I would prefer to understand what is happening. 
 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 15, 2016, 07:49:30 am
I would love to hear some responses from those who sample some of their first brewtan beers.  Denny and one other brewer from Brews-Bros (Chils) has reported back after sampling their brewtan beers.  Denny is cautious but seems to think that "something is happening" which is encouraging and Chils response was "This stuff is definitely changing something in the beer. The non-brewtan batch still has some harshness to it." and he was comparing a brewtan batch vs. a non-brewtan batch of the same recipe.  Again, some understanding of what the product does and how it may impact different beers or brewers (oxidation, water composition, etc) would be great.  I hate mysteries.  :P  I would prefer to understand what is happening. 
 


I hope to be some help at some point. I'm gonna keg the O-fest today, but it's not a split batch so my thoughts will be just anecdotal. But I'm gonna do a split batch of APA soon, so that should give more solid results. What I do plan to do on these Brewtan beers is to fill a few bottles of each and leave in the beer fridge for 6 months or so, to judge the impact on shelf life.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 15, 2016, 09:05:42 am
Although I have yet to do a triangle tasting, my impression of the back to back batches of pils is that the Brewtan batch is much clearer and much better tasting, with a full, rounded, integrated flavor.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on July 15, 2016, 10:12:35 am
What I do plan to do and leave in the beer fridge for 6 months or so, to judge the impact on shelf life.

Seems like everyone is missing this point entirely... 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on July 15, 2016, 10:25:17 am
Did you use a copper chiller Denny?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 15, 2016, 10:34:35 am
Did you use a copper chiller Denny?

Of course.  I changed nothing about my procedure other than the Brewtan.  I poured and stirred mash and sparge water, etc.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 15, 2016, 10:47:09 am
Did you use a copper chiller Denny?

Of course.  I changed nothing about my procedure other than the Brewtan.  I poured and stirred mash and sparge water, etc.


Same thing here, Denny.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 15, 2016, 10:58:38 am
What I do plan to do and leave in the beer fridge for 6 months or so, to judge the impact on shelf life.

Seems like everyone is missing this point entirely...

I don' think so..at least, I'm not.  For one thing, my kegs will take 2-3 months to kick, so there's a medium term test.  For another, I simply haven't had time yet to brew something to set aside.  That's why I'm not making any grand pronouncements at this point.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on July 15, 2016, 11:08:43 am
What I do plan to do and leave in the beer fridge for 6 months or so, to judge the impact on shelf life.

Seems like everyone is missing this point entirely...

What happened to traditional lagering schedules?  I'm starting to wonder if what "they" are trying to duplicate is not traditional german beer, but the taste of macro produced Bitburger.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 15, 2016, 11:12:13 am
What happened to traditional lagering schedules?  I'm starting to wonder if what "they" are trying to duplicate is not traditional german beer, but the taste of macro produced Bitburger.

Or maybe those "traditional lagering schedules" aren't what we think they are.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 15, 2016, 11:42:52 am
What I do plan to do and leave in the beer fridge for 6 months or so, to judge the impact on shelf life.

Seems like everyone is missing this point entirely...

I don' think so..at least, I'm not.  For one thing, my kegs will take 2-3 months to kick, so there's a medium term test.  For another, I simply haven't had time yet to brew something to set aside.  That's why I'm not making any grand pronouncements at this point.



FWIW, I was talking about filling a few bottles from the keg of each batch and putting them aside, as opposed to brewing a batch to set aside. Seems easy enough.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on July 15, 2016, 02:53:23 pm
What I do plan to do and leave in the beer fridge for 6 months or so, to judge the impact on shelf life.

Seems like everyone is missing this point entirely...

I don' think so..at least, I'm not.  For one thing, my kegs will take 2-3 months to kick, so there's a medium term test.  For another, I simply haven't had time yet to brew something to set aside.  That's why I'm not making any grand pronouncements at this point.



FWIW, I was talking about filling a few bottles from the keg of each batch and putting them aside, as opposed to brewing a batch to set aside. Seems easy enough.
I think setting some bottles aside is a great test.

When doing a brewtan triangle test with a Helles or other light lager, how long should the beer lager before the tasting to ensure proper results? Should the wait time be varied? For the sample 3 separate triangles tests could be performed; (1) lager 5-10 days to see if brewtan accelerates maturation, (2) lager 4-6 weeks to see if brewtan makes noticeable difference with normal lagering times (4-6 may not be normal). (3) lager 6 months to see if brewtan makes noticeable difference on shelf life?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 15, 2016, 02:56:48 pm
I think setting some bottles aside is a great test.

When doing a brewtan triangle test with a Helles or other light lager, how long should the beer lager before the tasting to ensure proper results? Should the wait time be varied? For the sample 3 separate triangles tests could be performed; (1) lager 5-10 days to see if brewtan accelerates maturation, (2) lager 4-6 weeks to see if brewtan makes noticeable difference with normal lagering times (4-6 may not be normal). (3) lager 6 months to see if brewtan makes noticeable difference on shelf life?


That's as good a plan as any !
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on July 15, 2016, 03:56:07 pm
Having used Brewtan B on 2 beers now, I don't find that it produces much difference in the young beer. It is reputed to help remove components that may promote oxidation, so I expect that the real difference will be in the longer term aging of beers.

I rarely brew big beers that I age for long duration, but I wonder how Brewtan would do in improving their aging?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 15, 2016, 03:59:46 pm
Having used Brewtan B on 2 beers now, I don't find that it produces much difference in the young beer. It is reputed to help remove components that may promote oxidation, so I expect that the real difference will be in the longer term aging of beers.

I rarely brew big beers that I age for long duration, but I wonder how Brewtan would do in improving their aging?


Martin, I'm thinking I probably won't use it in big beers (like barleywine) that benefit from some subtle oxidation over time.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 15, 2016, 04:19:52 pm
Having used Brewtan B on 2 beers now, I don't find that it produces much difference in the young beer. It is reputed to help remove components that may promote oxidation, so I expect that the real difference will be in the longer term aging of beers.

I rarely brew big beers that I age for long duration, but I wonder how Brewtan would do in improving their aging?

Martin, I'm pretty sure I'm seeing short term improvement.  Maybe that just means that I had more room to improve  At this point, after lagering my German pils batches for about a month, the Brewtan batch is noticeably better.  But I won't be certain it's due to the Brewtan without more testing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 15, 2016, 04:48:57 pm
Having used Brewtan B on 2 beers now, I don't find that it produces much difference in the young beer. It is reputed to help remove components that may promote oxidation, so I expect that the real difference will be in the longer term aging of beers.

I rarely brew big beers that I age for long duration, but I wonder how Brewtan would do in improving their aging?

Martin, I'm pretty sure I'm seeing short term improvement.  Maybe that just means that I had more room to improve  At this point, after lagering my German pils batches for about a month, the Brewtan batch is noticeably better.  But I won't be certain it's due to the Brewtan without more testing.
I agree with this.  I haven't had much time to do a lot of long-term lagering... my production was down and my consumption was up for awhile so most of my brewtan beers are relatively young.  I am noticing a smoothness and softness in the brewtan beers that is very pronounced and noticeable.  If brewtan helps cut down on oxidative effects over time, that's great and I didn't miss that point... I was just focused on other points... plus, my beers don't sit around for long periods and I don't make big beers or beers that require a very long aging phase.  I have 4 taps in my bar area and there are three brewtan beers in there now... a pilsner, an APA and a "Dark Lager".  There is also a Festbier that I made with 2352 which is not a brewtan beer.  Last night I went with the Festbier and I could tell immediately that it was not as soft and smooth as the brewtan beers.  It's a very drinkable beer but there is a harshness or roughness to it and it has an almost chemical-like smell and finish to it.  Again, it's not undrinkable but the different between the brewtan beers and non-brewtan beers is quite noticeable.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on July 17, 2016, 08:52:04 am
Another Brewtan B usage data point to report:

I brewed a Mild yesterday and added 1/4 tsp brewtan B to my mash (5.5 gallon batch). The first runnings were the clearest I've ever seen. Forgot to add at the end of the boil. I did add my usual dosage of hydrated Irish moss, though.

Nice clear wort racked to a bucket and I noticed that the trub looked more coagulated/congealed than what I typically see. So much so that it was quite easy to get almost every drop of wort out without pulling any trub into the bucket.

I didn't notice any change to my mash pH or any of my efficiency numbers when using it. Pitched some top cropped 1318 this morning. We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Philbrew on July 17, 2016, 09:06:51 pm
Holy cow.  Do I really have to read all 15 pages of this thread to find out about Brewtan B?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on July 18, 2016, 01:45:48 pm
all of these "preliminary" results sound fairly promising. Even with regards to short vs long terms maturation benefits, they both sound like potential winners.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 25, 2016, 07:34:11 am
Holy cow.  Do I really have to read all 15 pages of this thread to find out about Brewtan B?
Not necessarily.  If you're interested to know what other brewers have experienced with brewtan, read the 15 pages.  If you're just curious about what brewtan will do for your own beers, I highly recommend that you get some and use it in your beers.  ¼ tsp in the mash water and then another ½ tsp dissolved in water and added to the kettle with 10-15 minutes left in the boil.  Getting the brewtan will be the hardest part of the process.  I ordered mine from iBrew in Australia and it took 10-14 days to get to me.  Yesterday I made my 8th batch with brewtan.  I have sampled five of those and every one of them has been stellar.  This week I'll be making the 9th one... a helles.  I see no downside to trying it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 28, 2016, 05:29:58 pm
Having used Brewtan B on 2 beers now, I don't find that it produces much difference in the young beer. It is reputed to help remove components that may promote oxidation, so I expect that the real difference will be in the longer term aging of beers.

I rarely brew big beers that I age for long duration, but I wonder how Brewtan would do in improving their aging?

Martin, I'm pretty sure I'm seeing short term improvement.  Maybe that just means that I had more room to improve  At this point, after lagering my German pils batches for about a month, the Brewtan batch is noticeably better.  But I won't be certain it's due to the Brewtan without more testing.
Denny, when is this "more testing" going to happen? I'm curious, damn it!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on July 28, 2016, 07:00:36 pm
I really need to order some of this.  I keep thinking about the 3 week delivery time.  Then a month goes by and I think, oh, it could have been here by now.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 28, 2016, 07:08:57 pm
Will it show up at the LHBS someday?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 28, 2016, 07:23:26 pm
Way too early to declare anything so it's not remotely even a data point, but my O-fest (first beer brewed with Brewtan) is 3 days shy of a month old. It's pretty clear (not quite brilliant), has a rich, malty nose and flavor, more than I recall in any O-fest I've brewed at this age. The improved clarity at very least seems improved, as does overall malt character. I'll post pics soon and final impressions but I'm definitely encouraged, enough to order some more Brewtan and wait 3 weeks. Can't wait to keg the North German Pils (Brewtan #2) tomorrow and get it carbed up.


Edit -  Jeff, I sure hope so !
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 28, 2016, 09:21:35 pm
Way too early to declare anything so it's not remotely even a data point, but my O-fest (first beer brewed with Brewtan) is 3 days shy of a month old. It's pretty clear (not quite brilliant), has a rich, malty nose and flavor, more than I recall in any O-fest I've brewed at this age. The improved clarity at very least seems improved, as does overall malt character. I'll post pics soon and final impressions but I'm definitely encouraged, enough to order some more Brewtan and wait 3 weeks. Can't wait to keg the North German Pils (Brewtan #2) tomorrow and get it carbed up.


Edit -  Jeff, I sure hope so !
That sounds promising HoosierBrew!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on July 29, 2016, 08:16:23 am
Way too early to declare anything so it's not remotely even a data point, but my O-fest (first beer brewed with Brewtan) is 3 days shy of a month old. It's pretty clear (not quite brilliant), has a rich, malty nose and flavor, more than I recall in any O-fest I've brewed at this age. The improved clarity at very least seems improved, as does overall malt character. I'll post pics soon and final impressions but I'm definitely encouraged, enough to order some more Brewtan and wait 3 weeks. Can't wait to keg the North German Pils (Brewtan #2) tomorrow and get it carbed up.

Sweet!  Thanks for the update.  So was your process essentially the same plus the brewtan or did you fool with some LODO techniques as well?  Interested in your NGP report.  I am beginning to form an opinion that Brewtan is best tool for malty styles and Polyclar for hoppy...   
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 29, 2016, 08:26:13 am
Way too early to declare anything so it's not remotely even a data point, but my O-fest (first beer brewed with Brewtan) is 3 days shy of a month old. It's pretty clear (not quite brilliant), has a rich, malty nose and flavor, more than I recall in any O-fest I've brewed at this age. The improved clarity at very least seems improved, as does overall malt character. I'll post pics soon and final impressions but I'm definitely encouraged, enough to order some more Brewtan and wait 3 weeks. Can't wait to keg the North German Pils (Brewtan #2) tomorrow and get it carbed up.

Sweet!  Thanks for the update.  So was your process essentially the same plus the brewtan or did you fool with some LODO techniques as well?  Interested in your NGP report.  I am beginning to form an opinion that Brewtan is best tool for malty styles and Polyclar for hoppy...   



No, I kept my process otherwise the same. I feel that if you change too many variables at once and it's tough to assign cause and effect with any real accuracy. It seems to enhance malt character as you say, but since I'm kegging this hoppy Pivo style German pils today, I'm interested to see how it fares in a hoppy beer. If Brewtan's main advantage really proves to be in preventing oxidative reactions, then it seems that it would benefit most any beer. We'll see !
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 29, 2016, 09:33:12 am
Denny, when is this "more testing" going to happen? I'm curious, damn it!

As soon as I have time!  I've been on the road the last 2 weeks.  I have a pile of brewing equipment and ingredients that need to be tested.  Being a beer writer is hard work!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 29, 2016, 09:33:52 am
Will it show up at the LHBS someday?

I hope so.  I intend to work on that.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 29, 2016, 09:50:10 am
Well, I ordered some up. Looking forward to trying it out! I'd like to go back to just dumping my non-preboiled strike and sparge water into the mash tun. Probably doesn't matter what I'm doing anyway. Got a copper chiller oxidizing the f*ck out of my beer. WINK (argh)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on July 29, 2016, 10:03:23 am
Way too early to declare anything so it's not remotely even a data point, but my O-fest (first beer brewed with Brewtan) is 3 days shy of a month old. It's pretty clear (not quite brilliant), has a rich, malty nose and flavor, more than I recall in any O-fest I've brewed at this age. The improved clarity at very least seems improved, as does overall malt character. I'll post pics soon and final impressions but I'm definitely encouraged, enough to order some more Brewtan and wait 3 weeks. Can't wait to keg the North German Pils (Brewtan #2) tomorrow and get it carbed up.


Edit -  Jeff, I sure hope so !

Just curious, did you fine the O-fest with gelatin?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 29, 2016, 10:08:26 am
Way too early to declare anything so it's not remotely even a data point, but my O-fest (first beer brewed with Brewtan) is 3 days shy of a month old. It's pretty clear (not quite brilliant), has a rich, malty nose and flavor, more than I recall in any O-fest I've brewed at this age. The improved clarity at very least seems improved, as does overall malt character. I'll post pics soon and final impressions but I'm definitely encouraged, enough to order some more Brewtan and wait 3 weeks. Can't wait to keg the North German Pils (Brewtan #2) tomorrow and get it carbed up.


Edit -  Jeff, I sure hope so !

Just curious, did you fine the O-fest with gelatin?


No, I wanted to judge its clarity on its own merits. Considerimg not using gelatin and the beer not being a month old, the clarity is good and will only get better.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mchrispen on July 29, 2016, 01:39:38 pm
I just got some. Been looking at the suggested rates, which seems to vary from Wyeast to the manufacturer, even the packaging from Australia.


The package suggests 1.5 grams for a 5 gallon batch, yet when I run the math at 4 grams/hl, I get nearly a half (0.83g) for a standard 5.5 gallon batch. 4 grams/hl is at the high end of the Wyeast recommendation. Anjiomoto's product sheet says to dose based off total batch size, rather than liquor and boil sizes; and provides separate dose suggestions for use in mash and boil.


What dosages have you used?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 29, 2016, 01:53:35 pm
I used the recommendation Denny got - 1/4 tsp in the mash water, and 1/2 tsp in a slurry added with 15 mins left in the boil.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on July 29, 2016, 02:11:47 pm
I used the Ajinimoto dosage and converted that into the mass needed for my 6 gal batch size. My mass came close to Matt's number. Based on the small volume of powder, I'd say that the 1/4 & 1/2 tsp amounts are larger than what the Mfr recommends. That might mean that you'd waste more with the tsp measures.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 29, 2016, 03:01:09 pm
I used the Ajinimoto dosage and converted that into the mass needed for my 6 gal batch size. My mass came close to Matt's number. Based on the small volume of powder, I'd say that the 1/4 & 1/2 tsp amounts are larger than what the Mfr recommends. That might mean that you'd waste more with the tsp measures.

If that's what Joe uses, that's what I'm gonna use.  He not only specializes in the product for the company, we all knoi what his beers are like.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 30, 2016, 09:01:25 am
I noticed that the Ajinimoto docs say to add the second dosage of the brewtan with no more than 5 minutes left in the boil but Denny mentioned that Joe goes with 15 minutes left.  I do wonder about the dosage amounts and the boil time because they differ.  Does anyone think that 15 minutes of boil is going to destroy the brewtan?  I've been in the habit of adding it at between 10 and 15 minutes left in the boil.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 30, 2016, 10:12:52 am
I noticed that the Ajinimoto docs say to add the second dosage of the brewtan with no more than 5 minutes left in the boil but Denny mentioned that Joe goes with 15 minutes left.  I do wonder about the dosage amounts and the boil time because they differ.  Does anyone think that 15 minutes of boil is going to destroy the brewtan?  I've been in the habit of adding it at between 10 and 15 minutes left in the boil.

I think that it's simply not that big a deal.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 30, 2016, 10:34:17 am
I noticed that the Ajinimoto docs say to add the second dosage of the brewtan with no more than 5 minutes left in the boil but Denny mentioned that Joe goes with 15 minutes left.  I do wonder about the dosage amounts and the boil time because they differ.  Does anyone think that 15 minutes of boil is going to destroy the brewtan?  I've been in the habit of adding it at between 10 and 15 minutes left in the boil.

I think that it's simply not that big a deal.


Yeah, it seems that the big picture is to have the first addition to fight mash oxidation (from splashing, air contact with malt) and the second addition for extra protection for the boil. I'd be curious to see how much different times and amounts actually make a difference.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 30, 2016, 01:29:37 pm
I posted this on another board and thought I would mention it here too... aside from the other changes I have made in my process (ss chiller instead of copper, larger mash volume and smaller sparge volume and conditioning my malt prior to milling), I have also been skipping the secondary.  For years I have gone primary -> secondary -> keg and it was an open transfer into a non-purged Better Bottle.  I now have the ability to purge a Better Bottle in case I ever have to use one but I suppose going from primary to a purged keg could have an impact on better beer as well.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 30, 2016, 03:08:51 pm
I posted this on another board and thought I would mention it here too... aside from the other changes I have made in my process (ss chiller instead of copper, larger mash volume and smaller sparge volume and conditioning my malt prior to milling), I have also been skipping the secondary.  For years I have gone primary -> secondary -> keg and it was an open transfer into a non-purged Better Bottle.  I now have the ability to purge a Better Bottle in case I ever have to use one but I suppose going from primary to a purged keg could have an impact on better beer as well.

Ken, I haven't used a secondary as a regular procedure for at least 10-12 years. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on July 30, 2016, 05:32:37 pm
+1 to no secondary. Closed transfers done directly from primary into keg for added protection.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 30, 2016, 05:54:56 pm
I liked the idea of secondary for clarification.  I have also been brewing long enough that "secondary" was part of the standard homebrewing process when I started.  I liked to add gel solution and get the beer clear before I packaged it.  But I did hear from a number of people who said to ditch it.  Anyone want to buy some Better Bottles?!  :P  Now I leave the beer in primary a little longer so things can settle.  Then I send the beer to a purged keg, get it cold, add gel solution and carb it.  First pint is usually tossed out as it has a lot of yeast in it.  Not sure if that one step could have an impact but I didn't mention it earlier.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 31, 2016, 10:36:30 am
I liked the idea of secondary for clarification.  I have also been brewing long enough that "secondary" was part of the standard homebrewing process when I started.  I liked to add gel solution and get the beer clear before I packaged it.  But I did hear from a number of people who said to ditch it.  Anyone want to buy some Better Bottles?!  :P  Now I leave the beer in primary a little longer so things can settle.  Then I send the beer to a purged keg, get it cold, add gel solution and carb it.  First pint is usually tossed out as it has a lot of yeast in it.  Not sure if that one step could have an impact but I didn't mention it earlier.  Cheers.
Dumping in the gel solution is definitely adding O2 to the keg. I quit using it. I'm starting to wonder if why I'd notice my beers getting thinner tasting towards the end of the keg was because of oxidation. I thought it was the use of gelatin alone that did it, but might've oxidized the beer too.
I'm pretty much 10-14 days primary, then to keg. The last two beers I've kegged at about 7 days with a couple points of extract left and let sit for another week at ferm temp. The all Vienna malt pale that I did this with is very nice tasting. Interested to see how that will affect the shelf life. It came down two more points in the keg from 1.014 to 1.012. Have to think it consumed any residual O2 in the headspace after purging.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 31, 2016, 10:45:41 am
Dumping in the gel solution is definitely adding O2 to the keg. I quit using it. I'm starting to wonder if why I'd notice my beers getting thinner tasting towards the end of the keg was because of oxidation. I thought it was the use of gelatin alone that did it, but might've oxidized the beer too.
I'm pretty much 10-14 days primary, then to keg. The last two beers I've kegged at about 7 days with a couple points of extract left and let sit for another week at ferm temp. The all Vienna malt pale that I did this with is very nice tasting. Interested to see how that will affect the shelf life. It came down two more points in the keg from 1.014 to 1.012. Have to think it consumed any residual O2 in the headspace after purging.

What's the mechanism for oxidation causing a thin taste?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on July 31, 2016, 03:00:40 pm
Dumping in the gel solution is definitely adding O2 to the keg. I quit using it. I'm starting to wonder if why I'd notice my beers getting thinner tasting towards the end of the keg was because of oxidation. I thought it was the use of gelatin alone that did it, but might've oxidized the beer too.
I'm pretty much 10-14 days primary, then to keg. The last two beers I've kegged at about 7 days with a couple points of extract left and let sit for another week at ferm temp. The all Vienna malt pale that I did this with is very nice tasting. Interested to see how that will affect the shelf life. It came down two more points in the keg from 1.014 to 1.012. Have to think it consumed any residual O2 in the headspace after purging.

What's the mechanism for oxidation causing a thin taste?

Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on July 31, 2016, 03:02:45 pm
Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

Could be.  I don't think I've ever noted that from oxidation, which is why I was interested in trying to figure it out.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on July 31, 2016, 03:04:21 pm
I assume you are referring to a "thinner body" and not loss of malt flavors on this one?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on July 31, 2016, 03:50:21 pm
I do think that oxidation scrubs out some amount of malt depth.  These brewtan beers seem to have more malt presence to me but honestly... I can't say any of this for sure.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on July 31, 2016, 04:03:57 pm
Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

Could be.  I don't think I've ever noted that from oxidation, which is why I was interested in trying to figure it out.
Yeah, the beer just seems to get thin, but maybe it's not oxidation afterall? Perhaps it really is what I thought, which is that you can over-gel a beer and it'll drop out more proteins than desired, causing a thinner beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: swampale on August 01, 2016, 09:10:42 am
I have always wondered about oxidation when adding gelatin to my kegs, but I just add it as slowly as I can. I purge it right away with C02 though.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on August 01, 2016, 09:23:34 am
Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

Could be.  I don't think I've ever noted that from oxidation, which is why I was interested in trying to figure it out.
Yeah, the beer just seems to get thin, but maybe it's not oxidation afterall? Perhaps it really is what I thought, which is that you can over-gel a beer and it'll drop out more proteins than desired, causing a thinner beer.

That has been frequently noted.  Why not do one without gelatin to compare?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: blair.streit on August 01, 2016, 05:19:00 pm
I've had similar concerns about oxygen pickup when adding gelatin. It makes the beer super clear, but lately I've deferred to just putting more kegs in the conditioning fridge and letting actual time do the clarifying for me instead of using gelatin as "liquid time".

Without any empirical evidence, I'm guessing it's close to a wash. In my head anyway, the beers age better if I leave them alone, but taste better young if I fine them. Since I have the fridge space now I'll trade time for more work (at least until I find a reason to reverse myself).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on August 01, 2016, 05:36:58 pm
Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

Could be.  I don't think I've ever noted that from oxidation, which is why I was interested in trying to figure it out.
Yeah, the beer just seems to get thin, but maybe it's not oxidation afterall? Perhaps it really is what I thought, which is that you can over-gel a beer and it'll drop out more proteins than desired, causing a thinner beer.

That has been frequently noted.  Why not do one without gelatin to compare?
Well, I've stopped using it and the problem has simply gone away.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 01, 2016, 05:45:05 pm
I've had similar concerns about oxygen pickup when adding gelatin. It makes the beer super clear, but lately I've deferred to just putting more kegs in the conditioning fridge and letting actual time do the clarifying for me instead of using gelatin as "liquid time".

Without any empirical evidence, I'm guessing it's close to a wash. In my head anyway, the beers age better if I leave them alone, but taste better young if I fine them. Since I have the fridge space now I'll trade time for more work (at least until I find a reason to reverse myself).



I'm pretty careful with O2 pickup, but I do fine many beers with gelatin. I honestly don't feel like it's caused any noticeable oxidation in my beers or I'd have stopped using it. I always assumed that with the gelatin's purpose being to drop yeast out of suspension, those yeast are able to scavenge the O2 introduced from stirring in the gelatin. Maybe not. Then again I've been kegging with ascorbic acid for a year or two now, so in theory that should be offering protection, too.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on August 01, 2016, 05:59:17 pm
I've had similar concerns about oxygen pickup when adding gelatin. It makes the beer super clear, but lately I've deferred to just putting more kegs in the conditioning fridge and letting actual time do the clarifying for me instead of using gelatin as "liquid time".

Without any empirical evidence, I'm guessing it's close to a wash. In my head anyway, the beers age better if I leave them alone, but taste better young if I fine them. Since I have the fridge space now I'll trade time for more work (at least until I find a reason to reverse myself).



I'm pretty careful with O2 pickup, but I do fine many beers with gelatin. I honestly don't feel like it's caused any noticeable oxidation in my beers or I'd have stopped using it. I always assumed that with the gelatin's purpose being to drop yeast out of suspension, those yeast are able to scavenge the O2 introduced from stirring in the gelatin. Maybe not. Then again I've been kegging with ascorbic acid for a year or two now, so in theory that should be offering protection, too.
Yeah, I don't know about that... at cold enough temps for the gelatin to work the yeast are already dormant, I'd assume.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 01, 2016, 06:02:04 pm
I've had similar concerns about oxygen pickup when adding gelatin. It makes the beer super clear, but lately I've deferred to just putting more kegs in the conditioning fridge and letting actual time do the clarifying for me instead of using gelatin as "liquid time".

Without any empirical evidence, I'm guessing it's close to a wash. In my head anyway, the beers age better if I leave them alone, but taste better young if I fine them. Since I have the fridge space now I'll trade time for more work (at least until I find a reason to reverse myself).



I'm pretty careful with O2 pickup, but I do fine many beers with gelatin. I honestly don't feel like it's caused any noticeable oxidation in my beers or I'd have stopped using it. I always assumed that with the gelatin's purpose being to drop yeast out of suspension, those yeast are able to scavenge the O2 introduced from stirring in the gelatin. Maybe not. Then again I've been kegging with ascorbic acid for a year or two now, so in theory that should be offering protection, too.
Yeah, I don't know about that... at cold enough temps for the gelatin to work the yeast are already dormant, I'd assume.


Yeah, I've thought about that, too. Regardless, I'm liking the end result.

Edit -  Like I said, hopefully the ascorbic is warding off any oxidation from the gelatin. I've entered lots of gel fined beers in comps that didn't get any oxidation dings. Who knows.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on August 01, 2016, 06:43:50 pm
Only a triangle test can answer many of the questions in this thread. My 2 cents...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 01, 2016, 06:48:20 pm
Only a triangle test can answer many of the questions in this thread. My 2 cents...

You're totally right. My plan is to try to do a few of those in the next year, to satisfy my curiosity.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on August 14, 2016, 11:45:51 am
Posted this in the "What's brewing this weekend" thread:

My first beer with Brewtan B today, a Munich Helles. Ditched my "low DO" process I've been using lately and did my old method of dumping the water into the mashtun, etc. The foam on top of the mash was an orange color...interesting. Wort was really clear in the second runnings, but the first runnings looked normal. I did notice a crazy amount of taige in the mash though. That isn't anything new to me though, it was maybe just a little more than I'm used to seeing. The wort tastes smoother and maybe not as bittersweet as usual. I am planning to rack it to a keg when it's a few points from expected final gravity though. I've been noticing major improvements from doing that alone.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on August 14, 2016, 12:41:39 pm
Posted this in the "What's brewing this weekend" thread:

I am planning to rack it to a keg when it's a few points from expected final gravity though. I've been noticing major improvements from doing that alone.
Are you actually measuring the gravity or just guessing? If guessing, what visual clue do you use to know when to transfer?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on August 14, 2016, 02:45:59 pm
Posted this in the "What's brewing this weekend" thread:

I am planning to rack it to a keg when it's a few points from expected final gravity though. I've been noticing major improvements from doing that alone.
Are you actually measuring the gravity or just guessing? If guessing, what visual clue do you use to know when to transfer?

At about a week, I check the gravity or if I notice there's no more airlock activity. I keep an eye on the activity everyday. When I see no more activity I know it's pretty close to being time for transferring. Also doing a FFT. Did that on my oktoberfest. FFT finished at 1.010, kegged at 1.014 after 7 days and it finished at 1.010. I'm not using a spunding valve either, so when I go to take a sample for FG, it blasts out of there. I figure if I can transfer it within 2-4 points from being done, I'm golden.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 14, 2016, 02:59:37 pm
Posted this in the "What's brewing this weekend" thread:

I am planning to rack it to a keg when it's a few points from expected final gravity though. I've been noticing major improvements from doing that alone.
Are you actually measuring the gravity or just guessing? If guessing, what visual clue do you use to know when to transfer?

At about a week, I check the gravity or if I notice there's no more airlock activity. I keep an eye on the activity everyday. When I see no more activity I know it's pretty close to being time for transferring. Also doing a FFT. Did that on my oktoberfest. FFT finished at 1.010, kegged at 1.014 after 7 days and it finished at 1.010. I'm not using a spunding valve either, so when I go to take a sample for FG, it blasts out of there. I figure if I can transfer it within 2-4 points from being done, I'm golden.


So I assume it doesn't overcarb without the spunding?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on August 14, 2016, 09:25:50 pm
Posted this in the "What's brewing this weekend" thread:

I am planning to rack it to a keg when it's a few points from expected final gravity though. I've been noticing major improvements from doing that alone.
Are you actually measuring the gravity or just guessing? If guessing, what visual clue do you use to know when to transfer?

At about a week, I check the gravity or if I notice there's no more airlock activity. I keep an eye on the activity everyday. When I see no more activity I know it's pretty close to being time for transferring. Also doing a FFT. Did that on my oktoberfest. FFT finished at 1.010, kegged at 1.014 after 7 days and it finished at 1.010. I'm not using a spunding valve either, so when I go to take a sample for FG, it blasts out of there. I figure if I can transfer it within 2-4 points from being done, I'm golden.


So I assume it doesn't overcarb without the spunding?
What about diacetyl? I would be afraid to remove from the yeast in case there is diacetyl or precursor in the beer. Need the yeast to clean up.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on August 15, 2016, 06:37:28 am
Jon, not that I've noticed it doesn't seem to be over carbonating. It's definitely not a permanent change but I'm trying it out for now and it seems to be working.

Tommy, I've been carrying yeast over to the keg when I transfer and it sits in the keg for an additional week to finish out. There shouldn't be anything different about it versus leaving it in the fermenter for another week. The yeast are still active.

At some point I plan to get a SS Brewtech brew bucket so I can do closed transfers...worry a bit less about O2 pick up. But still, doing it this way is basically a surefire way to have basically zero oxidation in the finished beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 15, 2016, 07:05:21 am
Jon, not that I've noticed it doesn't seem to be over carbonating. It's definitely not a permanent change but I'm trying it out for now and it seems to be working.


I've been kegging with ascorbic acid the last few batches, to (hopefully) help reduce kegging oxidation. I may try what you're doing at some point, to see if I can see a difference.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on August 15, 2016, 10:43:28 am
Jon, not that I've noticed it doesn't seem to be over carbonating. It's definitely not a permanent change but I'm trying it out for now and it seems to be working.


I've been kegging with ascorbic acid the last few batches, to (hopefully) help reduce kegging oxidation. I may try what you're doing at some point, to see if I can see a difference.
Post your thoughts on it if you remember.

I know this way is great, but definitely takes a bit of care; you have to pay pretty close attention to fermentation.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on August 15, 2016, 11:09:37 am
Jon, not that I've noticed it doesn't seem to be over carbonating. It's definitely not a permanent change but I'm trying it out for now and it seems to be working.

Tommy, I've been carrying yeast over to the keg when I transfer and it sits in the keg for an additional week to finish out. There shouldn't be anything different about it versus leaving it in the fermenter for another week. The yeast are still active.

At some point I plan to get a SS Brewtech brew bucket so I can do closed transfers...worry a bit less about O2 pick up. But still, doing it this way is basically a surefire way to have basically zero oxidation in the finished beer.
Makes sense. Thanks!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on August 15, 2016, 01:56:48 pm
Posted this in the "What's brewing this weekend" thread:

I am planning to rack it to a keg when it's a few points from expected final gravity though. I've been noticing major improvements from doing that alone.
Are you actually measuring the gravity or just guessing? If guessing, what visual clue do you use to know when to transfer?

At about a week, I check the gravity or if I notice there's no more airlock activity. I keep an eye on the activity everyday. When I see no more activity I know it's pretty close to being time for transferring. Also doing a FFT. Did that on my oktoberfest. FFT finished at 1.010, kegged at 1.014 after 7 days and it finished at 1.010. I'm not using a spunding valve either, so when I go to take a sample for FG, it blasts out of there. I figure if I can transfer it within 2-4 points from being done, I'm golden.

While the beer sits for an additional week are you allowing it to warm up to room temps to further attenuate and clean up any fermentation byproducts (diacetyl?) at this point? 

This is a cool idea, and potentially well worth giving a shot in addition to my closed transfers I do. I would guess you have to be pretty familiar with the recipe and yeast to make this work effectively and repeatedly.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on August 15, 2016, 06:08:07 pm
Posted this in the "What's brewing this weekend" thread:

I am planning to rack it to a keg when it's a few points from expected final gravity though. I've been noticing major improvements from doing that alone.
Are you actually measuring the gravity or just guessing? If guessing, what visual clue do you use to know when to transfer?

At about a week, I check the gravity or if I notice there's no more airlock activity. I keep an eye on the activity everyday. When I see no more activity I know it's pretty close to being time for transferring. Also doing a FFT. Did that on my oktoberfest. FFT finished at 1.010, kegged at 1.014 after 7 days and it finished at 1.010. I'm not using a spunding valve either, so when I go to take a sample for FG, it blasts out of there. I figure if I can transfer it within 2-4 points from being done, I'm golden.

While the beer sits for an additional week are you allowing it to warm up to room temps to further attenuate and clean up any fermentation byproducts (diacetyl?) at this point? 

This is a cool idea, and potentially well worth giving a shot in addition to my closed transfers I do. I would guess you have to be pretty familiar with the recipe and yeast to make this work effectively and repeatedly.
True, being familiar with the recipe and yeast definitely helps. But if you're within a couple points of your FG, than it's still fine I think. If you know when your beer is usually done, you can subtract about a day and transfer then, with some yeast. And if you do closed transfers, I think that'll ward off any O2 pickup/oxidation altogether. It's a marvelous method. I just assume, like anything else, it takes a bit of practice and attention.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on August 30, 2016, 04:22:30 pm
Another thought occurred to me today as I was sampling a new altbier I put on tap recently.  If my non-brewtan beers were oxidized and oxidation scrubs out malt depth, hops and flavor in general, I feel like I need to rebrew EVERYTHING so I can get a real taste of what I may have been missing.  My batches of helles have been outstanding and I have made numerous pale ales since using brewtan and all of them have been great.  I haven't made an alt in years but I was inspired to make one and although it's a little cloudy, it's unbelievably good.  I feel like I'm making beer that's much truer to style.  I feel slightly cheated that my past beers didn't have this level of malt character and flavor.  I have made brewtan pilsners, helles, pale ales, alt, amber lagers and a few others and they've all been stellar, IMO.  My next styles to tackle will be some English Pale Ales and Bitters made with English grains, hops and 1469.  I can't wait to see how they come out and I'm like a kid in a beer store all of a sudden!  :D
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on August 31, 2016, 05:46:03 am
I only have two brewtan beers under my belt so far: a mild and a bitter. Both excellent - the mild in particular. As a bottler, I'm particularly interested to see if shelf life is improved. Beers don't stick around too often in my house but having them stay in their prime a bit longer would be a nice feature of using the product.

I'm not convinced this is magic fairy dust but I do think there's something to it. If the tannic acid can chelate (bind) metals that cause oxidation of malt-flavor compounds, rendering them inactive, that sounds like legitimate chemistry to this inorganic chemist.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on August 31, 2016, 09:39:34 am
I only have two brewtan beers under my belt so far: a mild and a bitter. Both excellent - the mild in particular. As a bottler, I'm particularly interested to see if shelf life is improved. Beers don't stick around too often in my house but having them stay in their prime a bit longer would be a nice feature of using the product.

I'm not convinced this is magic fairy dust but I do think there's something to it. If the tannic acid can chelate (bind) metals that cause oxidation of malt-flavor compounds, rendering them inactive, that sounds like legitimate chemistry to this inorganic chemist.
I don't think it's a magic fairy dust either. I'm still interested in whether it helps or not. What this does seem to confirm for me, though, is that people believe in Low DO, but aren't willing to publicly admit it. I just ordered a SS chiller, so that'll be the final piece. I used brewtan B on my latest batch in conjunction with low DO to see if it helps with using the copper chiller. Maybe, maybe not...the wort didn't seem different than usual.
I honestly think there's more merit to preboiling and using SMB, being careful of O2 pickup, than just using brewtan B and continuing to pour and splash at will. But it might turn out that both are bogus, so who knows. Can't hurt to try. What does hurt is to completely disregard it and make the same beer you always make...stubbornness to improve on one's processes is regression.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 31, 2016, 10:32:06 am
Another thought occurred to me today as I was sampling a new altbier I put on tap recently.  If my non-brewtan beers were oxidized and oxidation scrubs out malt depth, hops and flavor in general, I feel like I need to rebrew EVERYTHING so I can get a real taste of what I may have been missing.  My batches of helles have been outstanding and I have made numerous pale ales since using brewtan and all of them have been great.  I haven't made an alt in years but I was inspired to make one and although it's a little cloudy, it's unbelievably good.  I feel like I'm making beer that's much truer to style.  I feel slightly cheated that my past beers didn't have this level of malt character and flavor.  I have made brewtan pilsners, helles, pale ales, alt, amber lagers and a few others and they've all been stellar, IMO.  My next styles to tackle will be some English Pale Ales and Bitters made with English grains, hops and 1469.  I can't wait to see how they come out and I'm like a kid in a beer store all of a sudden!  :D
Last Saturday I had Uerige, Sclüssel, and Schumacher, then back to Uerige. Malty flavors were more in Schlüssel and Schumacher. I got a little grape ester out of Schumacher. Noe were malt bombs by any means. When we got back to Uerige, it was obvious how bitter it was compared to the others, and not really all that malty. Bitterness was Uerige>Schumacher>Schlüssel. Malt was Schumacher, Schlüssel, Ürige.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 31, 2016, 11:29:30 am
I don't think it's a magic fairy dust either. I'm still interested in whether it helps or not. What this does seem to confirm for me, though, is that people believe in Low DO, but aren't willing to publicly admit it. I just ordered a SS chiller, so that'll be the final piece. I used brewtan B on my latest batch in conjunction with low DO to see if it helps with using the copper chiller. Maybe, maybe not...the wort didn't seem different than usual.
I honestly think there's more merit to preboiling and using SMB, being careful of O2 pickup, than just using brewtan B and continuing to pour and splash at will. But it might turn out that both are bogus, so who knows. Can't hurt to try. What does hurt is to completely disregard it and make the same beer you always make...stubbornness to improve on one's processes is regression.


Not fairy dust for me by any means. But I think the reason you're not noticing much difference is that you're already experimenting with lodo practices. I wasn't yet - so I was still doing the pour and splash style brewing, and the difference there seems to be more noticeable. As said, I've done no triangle yet to confirm, but I think I'm right. My whole thing with the GBF lodo paper wasn't that it was crap, just that it's damn hard to implement to their specs of zero O2. Compared to what I was doing prior (nothing), the Brewtan seems to be a simple stab at reducing O2, or at least a starting point. Still may give some of your methods a try yet.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on August 31, 2016, 12:49:55 pm
I don't think it's a magic fairy dust either. I'm still interested in whether it helps or not. What this does seem to confirm for me, though, is that people believe in Low DO, but aren't willing to publicly admit it. I just ordered a SS chiller, so that'll be the final piece. I used brewtan B on my latest batch in conjunction with low DO to see if it helps with using the copper chiller. Maybe, maybe not...the wort didn't seem different than usual.
I honestly think there's more merit to preboiling and using SMB, being careful of O2 pickup, than just using brewtan B and continuing to pour and splash at will. But it might turn out that both are bogus, so who knows. Can't hurt to try. What does hurt is to completely disregard it and make the same beer you always make...stubbornness to improve on one's processes is regression.


Not fairy dust for me by any means. But I think the reason you're not noticing much difference is that you're already experimenting with lodo practices. I wasn't yet - so I was still doing the pour and splash style brewing, and the difference there seems to be more noticeable. As said, I've done no triangle yet to confirm, but I think I'm right. My whole thing with the GBF lodo paper wasn't that it was crap, just that it's damn hard to implement to their specs of zero O2. Compared to what I was doing prior (nothing), the Brewtan seems to be a simple stab at reducing O2, or at least a starting point. Still may give some of your methods a try yet.
You.  Me.  Same page.  My guess is that someone who is already in tune with LODO practices is not going to get much out of brewtan because there isn't much FOR brewtan to do.  For someone like me (and apparently Hoosier), the difference can be very noticeable... and that's why some people might say IT'S MAGIC UNICORN DUST! and others might say IT'S NOTHING!  The different equipment and processes we use are going to dictate how much O2 pickup we get which is also going to dictate how much your beer may improve with brewtan.  Again, just a theory.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on August 31, 2016, 03:24:45 pm
At a homebrew scale you have more surface area at every stage of brewing and this generally means more oxygen exposure. So there is absolutely the potential for Brewtan B, SMB etc to make a noticeable difference, but how much remains to be seen.  Triangle tests are definitely in order.

However, given the number of German breweries I've seen with copper, I personally think it's silly to worry about that.  Unless you only like the beer made by the big breweries who have a Krones system, you're going against what empirical results show can make great beer.

My favorite is the direct fire mash tun here that has the copper chain to rake the bottom.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/SteveHolle_GermanBrewing.pdf
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 31, 2016, 04:49:10 pm
At a homebrew scale you have more surface area at every stage of brewing and this generally means more oxygen exposure. So there is absolutely the potential for Brewtan B, SMB etc to make a noticeable difference, but how much remains to be seen.  Triangle tests are definitely in order.

However, given the number of German breweries I've seen with copper, I personally think it's silly to worry about that.  Unless you only like the beer made by the big breweries who have a Krones system, you're going against what empirical results show can make great beer.

My favorite is the direct fire mash tun here that has the copper chain to rake the bottom.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/SteveHolle_GermanBrewing.pdf
I have seen that at Braürie Eck in Niederbayern. Saw a picture of the new Bierstadt Lagerhouse Denver's system that had that, it came from a closed German brewery.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on August 31, 2016, 05:12:51 pm
I asked a few people who have been brewing beer for a long time about this and many of them deflected the idea of the brewtan but they did say that the work to try to lower O2-pickup in their brewing and not just after fermentation is complete.  My guess is that many homebrewers and also commercial breweries have O2 in mind when they brew and by the way their system is designed.  People who think about O2 pickup in advance probably make very good beer with their process.  Clearly I don't know for sure but my process and my old-school equipment must have been robbing my beer of malt depth and flavor.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 01, 2016, 10:58:15 am
I asked a few people who have been brewing beer for a long time about this and many of them deflected the idea of the brewtan but they did say that the work to try to lower O2-pickup in their brewing and not just after fermentation is complete.  My guess is that many homebrewers and also commercial breweries have O2 in mind when they brew and by the way their system is designed.  People who think about O2 pickup in advance probably make very good beer with their process.  Clearly I don't know for sure but my process and my old-school equipment must have been robbing my beer of malt depth and flavor.

How do you keg your beers? I have found closed transfers from primary to keg to be the biggest help in terms of reducing oxidation in my final product. Hoping that through brewtan additions I can make it even better.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 01, 2016, 03:14:58 pm
I asked a few people who have been brewing beer for a long time about this and many of them deflected the idea of the brewtan but they did say that the work to try to lower O2-pickup in their brewing and not just after fermentation is complete.  My guess is that many homebrewers and also commercial breweries have O2 in mind when they brew and by the way their system is designed.  People who think about O2 pickup in advance probably make very good beer with their process.  Clearly I don't know for sure but my process and my old-school equipment must have been robbing my beer of malt depth and flavor.

How do you keg your beers? I have found closed transfers from primary to keg to be the biggest help in terms of reducing oxidation in my final product. Hoping that through brewtan additions I can make it even better.
As does transferring to the keg a few points before final gravity is reached. That's been a huge improvement in my process, I feel.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 01, 2016, 03:23:54 pm
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Sorry man! I have to give that one a try too.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on September 01, 2016, 04:25:00 pm
I asked a few people who have been brewing beer for a long time about this and many of them deflected the idea of the brewtan but they did say that the work to try to lower O2-pickup in their brewing and not just after fermentation is complete.  My guess is that many homebrewers and also commercial breweries have O2 in mind when they brew and by the way their system is designed.  People who think about O2 pickup in advance probably make very good beer with their process.  Clearly I don't know for sure but my process and my old-school equipment must have been robbing my beer of malt depth and flavor.

How do you keg your beers? I have found closed transfers from primary to keg to be the biggest help in terms of reducing oxidation in my final product. Hoping that through brewtan additions I can make it even better.
I used to use secondaries but I cut that part out.  I now to open transfers (I know, I know) from primary directly to a purged keg.  My hope is that the brewtan additions on brewday are protecting me from oxidation all along the way and anything else I can do (purge the keg prior to transfer) is a little additional insurance.  I do have a spunding valve but have not used it yet on a not-yet-fully-fermented beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 01, 2016, 04:35:53 pm
I used to use secondaries but I cut that part out.  I now to open transfers (I know, I know) from primary directly to a purged keg.  My hope is that the brewtan additions on brewday are protecting me from oxidation all along the way and anything else I can do (purge the keg prior to transfer) is a little additional insurance.  I do have a spunding valve but have not used it yet on a not-yet-fully-fermented beer.


FWIW, I've been adding ascorbic acid at kegging lately, in hopes of warding off final stage oxidation. In theory, if the Brewtan helps at the mash and boil stages and this helps at kegging, then I should at least be making a leap in O2 control in a simple way.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on September 01, 2016, 05:14:23 pm
I used to use secondaries but I cut that part out.  I now to open transfers (I know, I know) from primary directly to a purged keg.  My hope is that the brewtan additions on brewday are protecting me from oxidation all along the way and anything else I can do (purge the keg prior to transfer) is a little additional insurance.  I do have a spunding valve but have not used it yet on a not-yet-fully-fermented beer.


FWIW, I've been adding ascorbic acid at kegging lately, in hopes of warding off final stage oxidation. In theory, if the Brewtan helps at the mash and boil stages and this helps at kegging, then I should at least be making a leap in O2 control in a simple way.
Sounds reasonable.  I know that some people are all over the closed transfers but I don't see it as necessary at this point... for me, anyway.  My guess is that the first shot of brewtan in the mash is meant to protect the beer for the brewday and the late addition is to protect the beer for the duration of its life.  Of course that's purely speculative but the two separate additions have me thinking this way.  I even came up with a plan to purge secondaries in case I ever needed extra storage space. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 01, 2016, 05:25:43 pm
I used to use secondaries but I cut that part out.  I now to open transfers (I know, I know) from primary directly to a purged keg.  My hope is that the brewtan additions on brewday are protecting me from oxidation all along the way and anything else I can do (purge the keg prior to transfer) is a little additional insurance.  I do have a spunding valve but have not used it yet on a not-yet-fully-fermented beer.


FWIW, I've been adding ascorbic acid at kegging lately, in hopes of warding off final stage oxidation. In theory, if the Brewtan helps at the mash and boil stages and this helps at kegging, then I should at least be making a leap in O2 control in a simple way.

How much are you adding at kegging?  Is it in liquid form?  I am assuming it does not affect the overall flavor of the finished beer?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 01, 2016, 05:34:40 pm
I used to use secondaries but I cut that part out.  I now to open transfers (I know, I know) from primary directly to a purged keg.  My hope is that the brewtan additions on brewday are protecting me from oxidation all along the way and anything else I can do (purge the keg prior to transfer) is a little additional insurance.  I do have a spunding valve but have not used it yet on a not-yet-fully-fermented beer.


FWIW, I've been adding ascorbic acid at kegging lately, in hopes of warding off final stage oxidation. In theory, if the Brewtan helps at the mash and boil stages and this helps at kegging, then I should at least be making a leap in O2 control in a simple way.

How much are you adding at kegging?  Is it in liquid form?  I am assuming it does not affect the overall flavor of the finished beer?


I use the LD Carlson stuff from the LHBS, powdered form. It says 1 tsp/5 gallons. No don't notice it, not even in the recent kolsch.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on September 01, 2016, 06:47:43 pm
As does transferring to the keg a few points before final gravity is reached. That's been a huge improvement in my process, I feel.

I just got my pin, plan on doing this when I use it. Might start trying it with kegs too, depending on how well it works.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: el_capitan on September 08, 2016, 07:18:18 pm
Well I've been away from the forums for a while, and I'll admit that I only read through page 8 before posting BUT...

I have to say that on one hand, this certainly seems intriguing.

On the other hand, is this a solution looking for a problem?  So many people are hailing this as THE solution for an oxidation problem in beer.  But on a homebrew scale, how many people really see a problem with oxidation?  I've never had too much of a problem with drinking my way through a batch before it develops aging issues. 

I appreciate that AHA members try to be on the cutting edge of brewing developments, but to me this seems kind of like a bandwagon issue.  Maybe I'm just too old-school?  What happened to pragmatism?  I shared this info with a friend who is starting a commercial brewery, so I see the value in the information.  Also, I'd be willing to give this product a try because the science seems solid.  But if I never do try Brewtan-B, I think I'll still enjoy the hell out of my homebrew at the end of a hard day's work. 

Cheers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 09, 2016, 09:53:57 am
Well I've been away from the forums for a while, and I'll admit that I only read through page 8 before posting BUT...

I have to say that on one hand, this certainly seems intriguing.

On the other hand, is this a solution looking for a problem?  So many people are hailing this as THE solution for an oxidation problem in beer.  But on a homebrew scale, how many people really see a problem with oxidation?  I've never had too much of a problem with drinking my way through a batch before it develops aging issues. 

I appreciate that AHA members try to be on the cutting edge of brewing developments, but to me this seems kind of like a bandwagon issue.  Maybe I'm just too old-school?  What happened to pragmatism?  I shared this info with a friend who is starting a commercial brewery, so I see the value in the information.  Also, I'd be willing to give this product a try because the science seems solid.  But if I never do try Brewtan-B, I think I'll still enjoy the hell out of my homebrew at the end of a hard day's work. 

Cheers.

I think it's likely that most homebrewers suffer oxidation issues, whether they realize it or not.  Some may be minor, but even those can affect beer quality.  I've always been happy with the quality of my beers, but they seem to be noticeably better with Brewtan B.  Does that mean the ones without it suck?  Not IMO.  But if they can be improved with something as simple as this, I'm gonna do it.  FTR, I still need to do more side by side testing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 09, 2016, 09:58:16 am
I think it's likely that most homebrewers suffer oxidation issues, whether they realize it or not.  Some may be minor, but even those can affect beer quality.  I've always been happy with the quality of my beers, but they seem to be noticeably better with Brewtan B.  Does that mean the ones without it suck?  Not IMO.  But if they can be improved with something as simple as this, I'm gonna do it.  FTR, I still need to do more side by side testing.



Exactly how I feel,Denny.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on September 09, 2016, 11:45:00 am
Which you know is pretty ironic, given ya'lls stances about oxidation 6 months ago. I'll take that as my "Thank You" for pointing oxidation out to you.  ;)

However in the true spirit of giving I will offer you a tip. Brewtan is not going to take you where you want to be, post fermentation ehh maybe... I have no doubts it will help you, it will help anyone but not exactly how you think it will. Let me explain.

Brewtan is going to help you chelate heavy metals to help stop fenton processes, that could have already been said in the pages of this thread, I didn't check. Where are these metals coming from though?.. Well you can get them from your tap water(RO and DI will be basically zero, wink wink ), improper passivation of stainless, copper chillers and post fermentation from improper passivation of kegs. But here is the catch, they can only super oxidize in the presence of low oxygen. Just think about that, and let it sink in.

Since you guys are not imploring low oxygen brewhouses, don't follow the proper low oxygen post fermentation procedures, you will only have a zero o2 environment briefly in the fermenter(until you rack it at FG). This is not a "knock" its the truth. For those who follow all of the above I.E macro brewers, the brewtan is a savior, because the whole process is low oxygen therefore the fenton reactions can ACTUALLY happen. What about that keg that didn't get properly passivated after being cleaned, how about that can..You can see the potential issues here..

The brewtan is going to only show you minor gains, when you guys are using it as you are. Now if one say, de-oxygenated brewing water dosed that with some SMB, mashed under a cap, lautered under a cap (to minimize o2 exposure of course we don't have the square cube law on our side) boiled softly, fermented, then spunded with some extract left into a keg, that was purged by pushing a full keg of sani out. Then you just MAY net a finished beer with under .15 DO, where brewtan would very well be another safeguard to keep the DO levels low. but there are other safeguards as well (I have yet to see them mentioned on here so I am guess they are still undiscovered) SO, what I am getting at is that you are not maximizing your results.

I do find it interesting though, and this may be a little tongue in cheek but you mention the flavor of your beer improving with brewtan, but imagine how much better they would be if you where avoiding oxygen in the first place and not trying to play "catch up". I am far from trying to covert anyone here, I know how that works and been here done that. Just some food for thought, thats all. Its been quite interesting watching this brewtan revolution from afar.

Prosit!


Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 09, 2016, 12:02:46 pm
I'll try low oxygen brewing someday, but I cannot with my current setup. Maybe when I have a dedicated brew in place area with a three vessel system.

I'll try Brewtan someday. Maybe when I can get it without ordering from Australia.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: blatz on September 09, 2016, 01:01:54 pm
this is all very interesting.  however, I don't know that I would ever be able to brew in a 'low 02' system. 

frustrating.  >:(

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 09, 2016, 03:24:52 pm
this is all very interesting.  however, I don't know that I would ever be able to brew in a 'low 02' system. 

frustrating.  >:(


I wonder this too, myself. I just got a stainless chiller in hopes that it'll be "the final piece" but I'm thinking it's only "another piece" instead. I'm thinking it can only improve the beer further. Even if I can get a little of "it" I'll be pretty content. But we can always improve.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 09, 2016, 03:32:57 pm
I'm waiting for all the stainless chiller switchers to complain about sulphur notes only to make the switch back to copper, or at at least tossing a pipe fitting into the kettle.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 09, 2016, 03:48:48 pm
I'm waiting for all the stainless chiller switchers to complain about sulphur notes only to make the switch back to copper, or at at least tossing a pipe fitting into the kettle.


Yep. homoeccentricus bought one and complained of sulfur immediately. Gonna stick with what I'm doing for now. My 'slight improvement' seems to taste pretty good to me about now.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 09, 2016, 04:07:31 pm
I'm waiting for all the stainless chiller switchers to complain about sulphur notes only to make the switch back to copper, or at at least tossing a pipe fitting into the kettle.

Not to mention the number of German breweries using copper
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on September 09, 2016, 04:27:49 pm
I'm waiting for all the stainless chiller switchers to complain about sulphur notes only to make the switch back to copper, or at at least tossing a pipe fitting into the kettle.

Not to mention the number of German breweries using copper

Absolutely.  This is the least of my concern.  I'm testing some of these low DO methods, and removing copper is not one of them.  Results are still pending.  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 10, 2016, 10:08:29 am
FWIW, we have an interview with Joe Formanek scheduled for the podcast.  Should hit the air around mid Oct.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 10, 2016, 10:13:43 am
FWIW, we have an interview with Joe Formanek scheduled for the podcast.  Should hit the air around mid Oct.


Good. I'd be curious to get his take on Brewtan needing to be used in already lodo conditions. Sure doesn't seem to be the case to me. :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 10, 2016, 10:32:41 am
If you have questions you'd like us to ask him, please email them to podcast@experimentalbrew.com  Put JOE in the subject line.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on September 10, 2016, 11:48:47 am
I'm still hoping to see if its purported ability to coagulate and flocc proline containing proteins results in less chill haze and time to clear.

My first brewtan batch was a dry hopped pale ale that was consumed quickly so it wasn't a good test, but I currently have a Saison carbonating and a Belgian Strong Golden fermenting.

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on September 10, 2016, 01:21:51 pm

Not to mention the number of German breweries using copper

Don't forget that there are plenty of German beers that don't travel well. I'm a proponent of having some copper in your system. I just don't know how much is too much or if there is such a condition. I have recently been reducing the amount of copper in my equipment since I had a lot.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 10, 2016, 02:24:36 pm

Not to mention the number of German breweries using copper

Don't forget that there are plenty of German beers that don't travel well. I'm a proponent of having some copper in your system. I just don't know how much is too much or if there is such a condition. I have recently been reducing the amount of copper in my equipment since I had a lot.

The other question is "is there such a thing as too much".
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 10, 2016, 04:15:20 pm
Will be kegging my very first Brewtan beer tomorrow (Helles Exportbier). I feel like a first time brewer. Looking forward to picking up on any differences as this is a recipe I have recently brewed without it and know what it tastes/smells like normally.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on September 11, 2016, 06:37:11 am
I look forward to all the triple blind tests from everyone claiming brewtan is helping. I would hate for it to be cognitive bias!  ;)

Another tip. Look at any German Macro system... Bitburger, Paulaner, Spaten, HB, et all. You won't find so much as a trace of copper there. We all know small regional breweries rarely have the proper flavor(old traditional systems full of copper). The macros also just so happen to have the most IT.. Coincidence?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on September 11, 2016, 07:02:18 am
So, your idea of IT is only German Macro lager?  Have you even been to Germany?
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on September 11, 2016, 07:13:05 am
Nope it's elsewhere. I just cited those for example. Stop losing sight of the forest for the trees.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on September 11, 2016, 07:46:59 am
Maybe it comes from transatlantic shipment.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 11, 2016, 07:58:15 am
I'm a believer in trying to reduce O2 contact where feasible and reasonable. But it's kind of ironic that hopfenundmalz is IN Germany and just raved about (among others) a small family brewery with a copper laden system that makes an amazing, award winning Dunkel. Maybe he and the Germans have poor palates. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 11, 2016, 08:31:36 am
I'm a believer in trying to reduce O2 contact where feasible and reasonable. But it's kind of ironic that hopfenundmalz is IN Germany and just raved about (among others) a small family brewery with a copper laden system that makes an amazing, award winning Dunkel. Maybe he and the Germans have poor palates.
The two kettles are Stainless, the chains on the stiring arms that drag the bottom are copper, a big one followed by a small one. He mainly makes a Dunkel.

We spent two nights in Petting, and toured Schönram. That is a very highly automated modern system, all SS. There was a water treatment plant, and what I got from the guide (seemed to be a retired Brewer), was that the water was de-aerated. This is a packaging brewery, so they will use de-aerated water for the bottling line, the boiler, and the brewing. The mash came in though the top into the mash tun, a you could see it through a sight glass no idea it they were mixing under N2. They were filling and mixing the mash ton, while a boil was underway - so no decoction. The guide talked a lot about the different temps in the step mash. The pellet hops had been added to what looked like 3 hop backs, but these were plumbed in a loops to the kettle, and it sounded like the wort was recirculated through them in 3 timed additions. They had a big whirlpool and chiller. A flotation tank was noted on the CIP manifold. Fermentation was all open. Lagering tanks had spunding valves.

The Helles, Zwickel, and Pils from Schönram were very clean.

After that we went to Traunstein, hope to tour the Hofbäu Traunstein brewery tomorrow.

I am in Munich Tuesday and Wed. Weihenstephaner was booked 2 months ago - it is just before Oktoberfest. Will see if there have been cancilations. Hope to hit the English tour at Ayinger on Wed.

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 11, 2016, 09:43:46 am
Awesome.  Sounds like you are having a blast. Hope you are taking lots of pics!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 11, 2016, 09:53:17 am
+1. Sounds like a bucket list trip to me. Hope there's a cancellation so you can get into Oktoberfest. Definitely love to see some pics.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 11, 2016, 12:02:10 pm
+1. Sounds like a bucket list trip to me. Hope there's a cancellation so you can get into Oktoberfest. Definitely love to see some pics.

The cancellation was for Weihenstephaners tour, shortly before Oktoberfest begins. We fly out on Thursday. Oktoberfest starts on Saturday. We were there once, that was enough for us.

This trip has been some old favorites, some new around Bamberg, and a lot of new places in Oberbayern.

We used to live in Germany. We get back often. Last Nov-Dec we were here for 3 weeks. The weather was crap, but the Christmas markets were wonderful. Now the weather is outstanding, and there are warm weather activities to take part of.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 11, 2016, 12:09:28 pm
+1. Sounds like a bucket list trip to me. Hope there's a cancellation so you can get into Oktoberfest. Definitely love to see some pics.

The cancellation was for Weihenstephaners tour, shortly before Oktoberfest begins. We fly out on Thursday. Oktoberfest starts on Saturday. We were there once, that was enough for us.

This trip has been some old favorites, some new around Bamberg, and a lot of new places in Oberbayern.

We used to live in Germany. We get back often. Last Nov-Dec we were here for 3 weeks. The weather was crap, but the Christmas markets were wonderful. Now the weather is outstanding, and there are warm weather activities to take part of.



Ok, gotcha. Regardless, sounds pretty amazing!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on September 11, 2016, 01:49:02 pm
Does anyone have any large scale blind triangle tests planned? 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 11, 2016, 02:55:44 pm
Does anyone have any large scale blind triangle tests planned?

I do..but don't ask me when!  Actually, I want to try to get samples for the EB IGORs and get at least 4 trials besides my own.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 11, 2016, 03:29:51 pm
I do..but don't ask me when! 


Same here. It'll get done @ some point, hopefully soon.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on September 12, 2016, 02:18:14 pm
For what it's worth, I tapped a Saison yesterday which was chilled with a new stainless chiller, and it does not have any sulphur issues (no SMB in this batch though).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 12, 2016, 02:50:20 pm
For what it's worth, I tapped a Saison yesterday which was chilled with a new stainless chiller, and it does not have any sulphur issues (no SMB in this batch though).

Why would you expect it to have sulfur issues?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on September 12, 2016, 03:43:11 pm
Why would you expect it to have sulfur issues?

I didn't, but others have raised it as a concern when removing all copper from a system. 

I also read the GBF regularly, and some people there have had issues with sulfur, though it is mostly (or maybe only) in the context of brewing ales with the lodo techniques (no copper, SMB, etc.).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: blatz on September 12, 2016, 04:09:21 pm
So is there such thing as a Stainless CFC?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 12, 2016, 04:18:28 pm
Why would you expect it to have sulfur issues?



Denny, Martin posted a few times on how contact with copper (ie, an IC) reduces excess sulfur levels in beer. A couple months back, homoeccentricus read the GBF paper and bought a SS chiller - he reported high levels of sulfur in his beers after using it. Gonna keep using my copper IC.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 12, 2016, 04:51:30 pm
Why would you expect it to have sulfur issues?



Denny, Martin posted a few times on how contact with copper (ie, an IC) reduces excess sulfur levels in beer. A couple months back, homoeccentricus read the GBF paper and bought a SS chiller - he reported high levels of sulfur in his beers after using it. Gonna keep using my copper IC.

Yes, but isn't the higher sulfur levels with respect to lagers mostly?  Including homoeccentricus who (IIRC) was reporting on a lager that he had brewed. I could be wrong here, though.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 12, 2016, 05:01:43 pm
Why would you expect it to have sulfur issues?



Denny, Martin posted a few times on how contact with copper (ie, an IC) reduces excess sulfur levels in beer. A couple months back, homoeccentricus read the GBF paper and bought a SS chiller - he reported high levels of sulfur in his beers after using it. Gonna keep using my copper IC.

Yes, but isn't the higher sulfur levels with respect to lagers mostly?  Including homoeccentricus who (IIRC) was reporting on a lager that he had brewed. I could be wrong here, though.


I'm sure more so with lagers, no doubt. And I know that Narcout was talking about a saison. I was just answering to Denny's question about copper and sulfur. I'm gonna stick with my copper IC and the (hopefully accurate) chelating effects of Brewtan.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on September 12, 2016, 07:08:55 pm
Copper deficiency is more likely to strike in areas of the world with low endogenous copper in their water supply or they are using RO or DI for brewing. There have been many cases where sulfurous aroma is rapidly eliminated by allowing wort or beer to contact elemental copper. So having a low level of copper in your brewing water is a good thing. Its when its excessive that I can see this Fenton's reaction having a negative effect on beer.

I see that there are simple water test kits for copper content. I wish I knew what levels are appropriate or excessive. Sounds like this is a task for a brewer that used to have sulfur problems and has added some copper to their system to resolve it. A test of the raw water and a test of water or wort from their system, might give us some insight. Who in the forum has this condition?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 13, 2016, 09:36:01 am
Why would you expect it to have sulfur issues?



Denny, Martin posted a few times on how contact with copper (ie, an IC) reduces excess sulfur levels in beer. A couple months back, homoeccentricus read the GBF paper and bought a SS chiller - he reported high levels of sulfur in his beers after using it. Gonna keep using my copper IC.

Yeah, that I'm aware of.  But that assumes you have a sulfur issue to be dealt with.  I need to see more testing before I can accept that using an SS in and of itself increases sulfur.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 13, 2016, 09:59:33 am
Why would you expect it to have sulfur issues?



Denny, Martin posted a few times on how contact with copper (ie, an IC) reduces excess sulfur levels in beer. A couple months back, homoeccentricus read the GBF paper and bought a SS chiller - he reported high levels of sulfur in his beers after using it. Gonna keep using my copper IC.

Yeah, that I'm aware of.  But that assumes you have a sulfur issue to be dealt with.  I need to see more testing before I can accept that using an SS in and of itself increases sulfur.


I just wondered more about the lack of sulfur contact as opposed to the SS IC itself causing sulfur, Denny. For me, I'm sticking with my copper IC regardless.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 13, 2016, 10:06:57 am

I just wondered more about the lack of sulfur contact as opposed to the SS IC itself causing sulfur, Denny. For me, I'm sticking with my copper IC regardless.

I actually have 4 copper chillers around at the moment...3 IC and a CFC.  Obviously I'm not changing!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 14, 2016, 08:51:50 pm
The sulfer issues are more to do with the SMB dosage for everybody's system (some take more, some less). I brewed for many years (pre lodo) with no copper at all and never had a sulfur problem. For those on the fence about low oxygen mashing, it absolutely makes a difference.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 15, 2016, 09:34:24 am
For those on the fence about low oxygen mashing, it absolutely makes a difference.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Even with the use of a copper chiller, you think? I've noticed a slight improvement, but not out-of-this-world. I did just get a stainless chiller though, so I'm hoping that'll be the difference I really notice. I'm holding my breath for it, more than I'd like to admit, I'm sure. But, I like stainless anyway.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 15, 2016, 09:44:05 am
For those on the fence about low oxygen mashing, it absolutely makes a difference.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Even with the use of a copper chiller, you think? I've noticed a slight improvement, but not out-of-this-world. I did just get a stainless chiller though, so I'm hoping that'll be the difference I really notice. I'm holding my breath for it, more than I'd like to admit, I'm sure. But, I like stainless anyway.
Let's start with, I have done lodo probably almost every way the paper said not to. For me there was a noticeable difference, even doing it partially wrong. Even with using copper. The big difference was how long it lasted.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 15, 2016, 10:23:49 am
For those on the fence about low oxygen mashing, it absolutely makes a difference.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Even with the use of a copper chiller, you think? I've noticed a slight improvement, but not out-of-this-world. I did just get a stainless chiller though, so I'm hoping that'll be the difference I really notice. I'm holding my breath for it, more than I'd like to admit, I'm sure. But, I like stainless anyway.
Let's start with, I have done lodo probably almost every way the paper said not to. For me there was a noticeable difference, even doing it partially wrong. Even with using copper. The big difference was how long it lasted.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I've noticed a longer shelf life as well.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 15, 2016, 10:31:21 am
I haven't got to play with brewtan yet, but it sounds like it with lodo practices might be more forgiving with use of copper.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 15, 2016, 11:00:25 am
I haven't got to play with brewtan yet, but it sounds like it with lodo practices might be more forgiving with use of copper.

That's my understanding, too - that Brewtan has a chelating effect (at least to a degree) on copper.


Jesse - I think it's worth repeating that, for someone like you who has been using lodo practices already (SMB, transferring to keg early, etc.), Brewtan may well not show a big difference in terms of final product. But for guys like some of us who are still using older practices with pouring and splashing, etc., Brewtan makes a noticeable difference (and improvement) IMO.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: stpug on September 15, 2016, 11:55:30 am
For those on the fence about low oxygen mashing, it absolutely makes a difference.

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Even with the use of a copper chiller, you think? I've noticed a slight improvement, but not out-of-this-world. I did just get a stainless chiller though, so I'm hoping that'll be the difference I really notice. I'm holding my breath for it, more than I'd like to admit, I'm sure. But, I like stainless anyway.
Let's start with, I have done lodo probably almost every way the paper said not to. For me there was a noticeable difference, even doing it partially wrong. Even with using copper. The big difference was how long it lasted.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I've noticed a longer shelf life as well.

Me too.... it stays on the shelf way longer than it used to (ba-dum-ch) :D

(sorry, couldn't resist)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 15, 2016, 12:02:09 pm
So is anyone testing the use of brewtan and lodo with the use of copper yet? If not, why not? Even my limited chemistry knowledge tells me brewtan will not get you there alone.

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Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 15, 2016, 12:16:49 pm
So is anyone testing the use of brewtan and lodo with the use of copper yet? If not, why not? Even my limited chemistry knowledge tells me brewtan will not get you there alone.

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I have and, so far, haven't noticed a difference between just using a low DO process with the copper chiller. I'll be interested to see what happens when I start using my stainless chiller this weekend. But I'm not brewing what you would call the best style to test for it: a black IPA. I really should be doing a helles again, and maybe I'll end up doing that.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 15, 2016, 12:31:52 pm
So is anyone testing the use of brewtan and lodo with the use of copper yet? If not, why not? Even my limited chemistry knowledge tells me brewtan will not get you there alone.

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I have and, so far, haven't noticed a difference between just using a low DO process with the copper chiller. I'll be interested to see what happens when I start using my stainless chiller this weekend. But I'm not brewing what you would call the best style to test for it: a black IPA. I really should be doing a helles again, and maybe I'll end up doing that.
With low o2 mashing I see a difference in all beers and styles, including hoppy.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 15, 2016, 05:23:02 pm
So is anyone testing the use of brewtan and lodo with the use of copper yet? If not, why not? Even my limited chemistry knowledge tells me brewtan will not get you there alone.

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I have and, so far, haven't noticed a difference between just using a low DO process with the copper chiller. I'll be interested to see what happens when I start using my stainless chiller this weekend. But I'm not brewing what you would call the best style to test for it: a black IPA. I really should be doing a helles again, and maybe I'll end up doing that.
With low o2 mashing I see a difference in all beers and styles, including hoppy.

Does this include the use of a SS chiller?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 15, 2016, 08:38:07 pm
A lot of my batches I have used a  ss plate chiller (which according to the label uses a 99.9 copper brazing material to assemble, very interesting)  to chill strike water and a copper cfc for the final chill.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 16, 2016, 12:25:30 pm
A lot of my batches I have used a  ss plate chiller (which according to the label uses a 99.9 copper brazing material to assemble, very interesting)  to chill strike water and a copper cfc for the final chill.

So if you are incorporating copper to some degree, then do you feel through experience that a stainless steel chiller is not fully necessary to maintain low DO practices?  Just curious, as I am trying to figure out where I can possibly make changes at home.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 16, 2016, 01:45:16 pm

So if you are incorporating copper to some degree, then do you feel through experience that a stainless steel chiller is not fully necessary to maintain low DO practices?  Just curious, as I am trying to figure out where I can possibly make changes at home.
[/quote]
I think stainless is necessary for the effects to last any useful amount of time. But I think you may be able see the effects with the use of copper for a very short time. Maybe till the end of the mash, maybe the end of fermentation, maybe not at all. It very dependant on a 1000 different factors.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 16, 2016, 01:52:14 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 16, 2016, 02:11:15 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me, too.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 16, 2016, 02:24:17 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me, too.


Same here. Brewtan in the mash and boil is easy and doable for me. Trying to exclude every molecule of O2 in the atmosphere at every step, not so much. Who knows, I may feel differently down the line.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on September 16, 2016, 04:27:40 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.

I have a different view: I don't buy it.  At least as it's presented.  Your malt flavors are not being destroyed.  It's pseudoscience.

What I think IS happening is that polyphenols and other nefarious compounds are created and only finally disappear after a long period of lagering.  I'm more interested in Brewtan and possibly Brewbrite (carageenan+pvpp) on the hot side, although I'm sure fining on the cold side could help too.  But either way, I think that avoiding a long lagering period at the homebrew scale gives you the best of both worlds: freshness and cleanness.

But my lagers age well, and get better once they clear (even better than using gelatin which is mostly active for yeast).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 16, 2016, 05:44:29 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.


But my lagers age well, and get better once they clear (even better than using gelatin which is mostly active for yeast).

Agreed. I am currently enjoying an International Pale lager that has been in the keg for 9 wks and it tastes fantastic right now! Even better than about 3 wks ago too. It is being judged at a comp today, so we shall see what they think of it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 16, 2016, 05:58:50 pm
+1. Aside from anything, definitely all about getting lagers clear fairly quickly. My Ofest gets judged in 3 weeks - curious to see how it does in general, then to read the comments as it was brewed with Brewtan and Weyermann Barke malts. I don't enter as many comps nowadays. Just the beers I feel pretty strongly about, except for most of my American hoppy beers (which account for half of many comp entries). Too much a crapshoot for the effort. I know they're good.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 16, 2016, 05:59:21 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.
That was in context to using copper not stainless.

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Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 16, 2016, 06:05:49 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.
That was in context to using copper not stainless.

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My opinion is the fact that there are way too many steps and processes and voodoo and wishful thinking for me to want to attempt low oxygen brewing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 17, 2016, 04:50:30 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.
Have you had pour over coffee??? It's different and it DEFINITELY makes a difference. Why the resistance to improve? I guess if you're happy with what you're doing then no one should be piping up in these conversations because it doesn't help us move forward, evolve our craft. I'm not happy with American beer and I've not been happy with the beer I've made for a long time (read: not as happy as I feel I should be) and I'm searching for the answer. Whether low DO and all stainless is it or not, I'm about to find out. But pour over coffee definitely makes a difference and it's good. Different methods for different results, really. It's real, dude.
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 17, 2016, 05:29:38 pm
I get that, i just feel the strict steps where one mistake ruins the effort isn't for me. I've had plenty of pour over coffee. It's fine, but not worth the ritual for me
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Philbrew on September 17, 2016, 09:44:07 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.
Ok, I had to google that.  Sheeesh, at my age, I don't need the stress either! 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 17, 2016, 10:58:26 pm
It's that thousand different factors that makes me not won't to bother. It's like hipster pour over coffee. I'm sure it's great, but I don't need the stress.
Ok, I had to google that.  Sheeesh, at my age, I don't need the stress either! 
At your age??? Dude, sounds like you've given up on life. Age is just a number. Learning is an ongoing thing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 18, 2016, 09:20:11 am
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 18, 2016, 10:32:44 am
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Well, they are questionable, I won't argue with that. But I intend to find out for myself. And if I like what I produce, I'm going to stick with it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 18, 2016, 11:14:23 am
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Well, they are questionable, I won't argue with that. But I intend to find out for myself. And if I like what I produce, I'm going to stick with it.

Good for you! 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 18, 2016, 07:20:37 pm
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on September 19, 2016, 05:55:23 am
I can see where a cold ferment schedule and spunding could be considered complicated with the extra equipment and timing involved. I haven't gotten to that part yet but have seen nice improvment in my lagers by incorporating whatever lodo techniques I can like preboiling, smb and brewtan.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 19, 2016, 06:46:50 am
I can see where a cold ferment schedule and spunding could be considered complicated with the extra equipment and timing involved. I haven't gotten to that part yet but have seen nice improvment in my lagers by incorporating whatever lodo techniques I can like preboiling, smb and brewtan.
For my next round of lagers I will try the LODO and Brewtan (thanks Mac!). I have one spunding valve now, might get a second (or just tee 2 kegs to to one valve).

There are a few things I want to try, and those were reinforced touring breweries in Germany recently.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on September 19, 2016, 09:33:47 am
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Pre-boiling sounds like a PITA, but no it's not complicated.  It seems like some of this is worth trying, whether I get around to it or not is a different question.  If Brewtan gets a similar result and is significantly easier, that might be the route to go.  I need a bigger chiller for my 10 gallon batches, so when I get it I'll probably go stainless.

Guys like RPIScotty, who were hugely skeptical of our LODO friends at the outset, have gone whole hog.  So there's something going on there to convert the skeptics.

I still don't buy the "you can't make good beer if you don't do it this way" dogma, but I'm not hearing so much of that anymore (maybe because those guys stay on their site).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 19, 2016, 10:08:46 am
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Seems as if there is more to than that.  And I don't want to do either of those things.  I have 5 chillers here already.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 19, 2016, 10:30:06 am
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Seems as if there is more to than that.  And I don't want to do either of those things.  I have 5 chillers here already.
Those are the main things. Malt conditioning isn't required, but sure makes for a smooth lauter. Spunding is the best way, but keg conditioned will hold up for a while. Ferment Ales just like you always would.
But with 5 chillers already, you probably should just dismiss lodo.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 19, 2016, 10:41:26 am
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers
Yep, this is where I'm at. The beauty of a hobby like this is we can do it any way we choose; whatever gives us the results we want. But like brewing coffee, methods DO MATTER, it just depends on what you're after.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 19, 2016, 11:01:02 am
Those are the main things. Malt conditioning isn't required, but sure makes for a smooth lauter. Spunding is the best way, but keg conditioned will hold up for a while. Ferment Ales just like you always would.
But with 5 chillers already, you probably should just dismiss lodo.

Also seems like I'd have to stop batch sparging.  When I see an advantage to LODO, and the advantage isn't outweighed by the PITA factor, I'll give it a try.  In the meantime, your snarkiness is doing nothing to convince me.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 19, 2016, 11:12:42 am
To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.
Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Pre-boiling sounds like a PITA, but no it's not complicated.  It seems like some of this is worth trying, whether I get around to it or not is a different question.  If Brewtan gets a similar result and is significantly easier, that might be the route to go.  I need a bigger chiller for my 10 gallon batches, so when I get it I'll probably go stainless.

Guys like RPIScotty, who were hugely skeptical of our LODO friends at the outset, have gone whole hog.  So there's something going on there to convert the skeptics.

I still don't buy the "you can't make good beer if you don't do it this way" dogma, but I'm not hearing so much of that anymore (maybe because those guys stay on their site).
I wouldn't say you can't make good beer unless done this way, but I think you could possibly make even better with controlling mash oxygen.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 19, 2016, 11:27:53 am
Those are the main things. Malt conditioning isn't required, but sure makes for a smooth lauter. Spunding is the best way, but keg conditioned will hold up for a while. Ferment Ales just like you always would.
But with 5 chillers already, you probably should just dismiss lodo.

Also seems like I'd have to stop batch sparging.  When I see an advantage to LODO, and the advantage isn't outweighed by the PITA factor, I'll give it a try.  In the meantime, your snarkiness is doing nothing to convince me.
Sorry for sounding snarky, just joking around.
No sparge is recommended  (an easier version of batch sparging, no?) With the 100ppm smb dose i think you can do it how ever you want. I fly sparged for a long while with smb, it worked fine.
Cheers
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on September 19, 2016, 11:56:59 am
I wouldn't say you can't make good beer unless done this way, but I think you could possibly make even better with controlling mash oxygen.

You never said that.  It was others.  And it's always possible for me to make better beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 19, 2016, 01:55:49 pm
After three weeks in Germany, I have the conclusion that it depends. What beer is being brewed, on what system, and other factors. Helles, yeah LODO is great. A Dunkel, maybe not required.

I was at a brewpub that had copper vessels from what I could tell, pretty simple system. The Helles had an oxidized flavor, so there you go. The Mandarina Pils was good, I didn't detect that flavor. The export Dunkel was super, full of yummy Mailliard products.

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 19, 2016, 02:11:51 pm
After three weeks in Germany, I have the conclusion that it depends. What beer is being brewed, on what system, and other factors. Helles, yeah LODO is great. A Dunkel, maybe not required.

I was at a brewpub that had copper vessels from what I could tell, pretty simple system. The Helles had an oxidized flavor, so there you go. The Mandarina Pils was good, I didn't detect that flavor. The export Dunkel was super, full of yummy Mailliard products.

Even if the Helles seemed oxidized, you'd have to do a lot of work to know if it was connected to the copper.  And why wouldn't it affect the other styles?  Dunno, but it seems like circumstantial evidence.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 19, 2016, 02:45:06 pm
After three weeks in Germany, I have the conclusion that it depends. What beer is being brewed, on what system, and other factors. Helles, yeah LODO is great. A Dunkel, maybe not required.

I was at a brewpub that had copper vessels from what I could tell, pretty simple system. The Helles had an oxidized flavor, so there you go. The Mandarina Pils was good, I didn't detect that flavor. The export Dunkel was super, full of yummy Mailliard products.

Even if the Helles seemed oxidized, you'd have to do a lot of work to know if it was connected to the copper.  And why wouldn't it affect the other styles?  Dunno, but it seems like circumstantial evidence.

Exactly, no argument. Copper, lots of splashing, do they mix the grist and liquor and drop from the top? Was the Helles old? I need to travel more and take more tours. ;-)

I have got that flavor before, at a larger brewery in the south of Bavaria. We went there for the view. Didn't see the brew house.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 19, 2016, 03:10:38 pm

Exactly, no argument. Copper, lots of splashing, do they mix the grist and liquor and drop from the top? Was the Helles old? I need to travel more and take more tours. ;-)

I have got that flavor before, at a larger brewery in the south of Bavaria. We went there for the view. Didn't see the brew house.

Which brings us back to Jethro's "The more I know about beer...", huh?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 19, 2016, 03:26:16 pm

Exactly, no argument. Copper, lots of splashing, do they mix the grist and liquor and drop from the top? Was the Helles old? I need to travel more and take more tours. ;-)

I have got that flavor before, at a larger brewery in the south of Bavaria. We went there for the view. Didn't see the brew house.

Which brings us back to Jethro's "The more I know about beer...", huh?
Exactly.

When we got to Augustener Keller, we shared a couple of Maß of the Helles. Super clean crisp malt flavor, only enough hops at the end to balance the malt. Hits the BJCP style guidelines on the nose for Munich Helles. We found it a little boring, after Ayinger, Schönram, and all of the Franconian Helles beers, which have a little more in the hop flavor, and often hop aroma.

Next time we might have to do our trip counter clockwise to see what we think!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on September 19, 2016, 06:07:00 pm
One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course ;) because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 19, 2016, 06:47:41 pm
One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course ;) because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.
Dude, no one said you had to do it. They just said it does make a difference. If you like what you're doing, keep doing it.
In regards to all the gold medals, well, I don't know about that, just that we can only assume beers will get better with better brewing practices. Can't a craft evolve? There's a whole lot of resistance towards evolving ideas in this thread and with all this Low DO stuff. We have the power to evolve ideas, guys!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on September 19, 2016, 08:00:56 pm
One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course ;) because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.
Dude, no one said you had to do it. They just said it does make a difference. If you like what you're doing, keep doing it.
In regards to all the gold medals, well, I don't know about that, just that we can only assume beers will get better with better brewing practices. Can't a craft evolve? There's a whole lot of resistance towards evolving ideas in this thread and with all this Low DO stuff. We have the power to evolve ideas, guys!
Maybe it's harder to interpret written word versus spoken word, but I interpret a lot of these posts as "If your not trying LODO then you don't want to evolve therefore there is something wrong with you as a brewer and a person."

I am trying some, just not all LODO things.  I am evolving in my own terms.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 20, 2016, 06:37:07 am
One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course ;) because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.
Dude, no one said you had to do it. They just said it does make a difference. If you like what you're doing, keep doing it.
In regards to all the gold medals, well, I don't know about that, just that we can only assume beers will get better with better brewing practices. Can't a craft evolve? There's a whole lot of resistance towards evolving ideas in this thread and with all this Low DO stuff. We have the power to evolve ideas, guys!
Maybe it's harder to interpret written word versus spoken word, but I interpret a lot of these posts as "If your not trying LODO then you don't want to evolve therefore there is something wrong with you as a brewer and a person."

I am trying some, just not all LODO things.  I am evolving in my own terms.
I didn't say not trying it is not evolving, just arguing so vehemently against it makes no sense to me. That, right there, is a stubbornness to evolve ideas.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on September 20, 2016, 07:43:00 am
I'll throw this out there, I have a theory that you DO need copper when making classic Belgian-styles.  I'd be interested to see if you notice any difference with your next Tripel, etc.  They benefit from micro-aeration all the way from the mash through the primary.  If you think it's hard to get the German IT flavor, even more American breweries miss the mark on Belgian IT.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 20, 2016, 09:12:37 am
...even more American breweries miss the mark on Belgian IT.
Agree 100%. I like American versions of Belgian beers even less than the American versions of German beers. But I'm not sure that copper is the answer for that or not.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on September 20, 2016, 09:14:19 am
Didn't RPIscotty brew mostly Belgian beers? If he's gone whole-LODO he'd be a good source on that info.

While I'm not going LODO, (it's hard enough brewing in my house as it is) I'm becoming sold on the spunding idea. Seems the Brits have been basically doing the same thing in a way, transferring to the cask before the primary fermentation has completely finished. Granted, they do add wort/sugar to prime the keg at this point, but the still-active yeast should be doing much to scrub O2. It'd be interesting to see how well this would work compared to trying to transfer to a purged keg.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: reverseapachemaster on September 20, 2016, 09:18:35 am
Didn't RPIscotty brew mostly Belgian beers? If he's gone whole-LODO he'd be a good source on that info.

While I'm not going LODO, (it's hard enough brewing in my house as it is) I'm becoming sold on the spunding idea. Seems the Brits have been basically doing the same thing in a way, transferring to the cask before the primary fermentation has completely finished. Granted, they do add wort/sugar to prime the keg at this point, but the still-active yeast should be doing much to scrub O2. It'd be interesting to see how well this would work compared to trying to transfer to a purged keg.

Cask ale doesn't fear oxygen but if the goal of the transfer into a purged keg is to avoid any oxygen exposure at that point then I'm not sure still fermenting beer will uptake all of the oxygen in a non-purged keg fast enough to avoid what is claimed to be the speed of these alleged oxidative reactions.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on September 20, 2016, 09:26:30 am
What's remarkable is that despite the fact that cask ale is supposed to oxidize slightly in the cellar, great pains are taken to ensure that as little oxidation as possible happens before that point. When I rack beer to my pin I plan on filling to the top, leaving as little headspace as possible.

I'm curious to try filling a keg with still-fermenting beer to just under the gas in line, and prime/fine. Then use the old "pressurize/pull the release valve" method to try and get as much O2 out of the keg as possible. Then leave some small pressure to keep the keg sealed while the yeast produce more CO2 and carbonate the beer. The trick would be figuring out the proper amount of primings to add to not overcarb it from that "sealing" pressure.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 09:47:27 am
One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course ;) because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.

To answer your question about beers in the past, no, I don't think they would.  Particularly becasue there is no evedence that LODO actually improves beer.  It might, but as of yet we just don't know for certain.  As Jeff noted on his tour of Germany, some places do LODO and make great beer and some places don't do LODO and make great beer.  One reason I'm not rushing to LODO is becasue I don't detect problems it would supposedly solve.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 09:51:04 am
I didn't say not trying it is not evolving, just arguing so vehemently against it makes no sense to me. That, right there, is a stubbornness to evolve ideas.

I am not "vehemently" arguing against it.  And it should be obvious from my 20 years brewing that I'm not opposed to evolution in process.  But the LODO process I've seen described is nothing I'm interested in until it can be proven it does make a difference and that the beers I brew will improve because of it.  That's all.  Show me some proof.  Do some blind triangle tests.  Hell, send me some of the beer so I can see for myself.  If I'm gonna make radicval changes to my brewing process, I have to know that the payoff is worth the effort.  Until I see that, LODO is akin to snake oil.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 09:52:23 am
Didn't RPIscotty brew mostly Belgian beers? If he's gone whole-LODO he'd be a good source on that info.

While I'm not going LODO, (it's hard enough brewing in my house as it is) I'm becoming sold on the spunding idea. Seems the Brits have been basically doing the same thing in a way, transferring to the cask before the primary fermentation has completely finished. Granted, they do add wort/sugar to prime the keg at this point, but the still-active yeast should be doing much to scrub O2. It'd be interesting to see how well this would work compared to trying to transfer to a purged keg.

Back in the "bad old days" of the 1920s-30s it was done the same way.  I thought we were supposed to be "evolving"!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on September 20, 2016, 09:57:06 am
Who knows? It could be a terrible idea-but I'm going to find out.

Sometimes I definitely wonder if we homebrewers miss out on easy solutions because we get wrapped up on more complicated fixes.

What's really interesting about this idea is that if it works I'd again be able to say "yes, I rack my beers to secondary..." :P
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on September 20, 2016, 10:38:39 am
...even more American breweries miss the mark on Belgian IT.
Agree 100%. I like American versions of Belgian beers even less than the American versions of German beers. But I'm not sure that copper is the answer for that or not.
+1;  First I've read of belgian IT and since this has been brought up, I think the short boil gives a belgian IT type effect.  I managed to get the effect even without using any malty stuff and would think using some would amplify it. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 20, 2016, 11:02:22 am
...even more American breweries miss the mark on Belgian IT.
Agree 100%. I like American versions of Belgian beers even less than the American versions of German beers. But I'm not sure that copper is the answer for that or not.
+1;  First I've read of belgian IT and since this has been brought up, I think the short boil gives a belgian IT type effect.  I managed to get the effect even without using any malty stuff and would think using some would amplify it. 
I think the Belgian beers (made in Belgium) definitely have some kind of fresh lingering grain flavor that American version don't have. Same with the German beers.

And, Denny, you being into the experimental brewing thing, this should be right up your alley, dude. Try it and see for yourself. That's basically your motto.

Anyway, I feel like this is a frivolous battle. Brew the way you want to brew that gets you the results you want. End of argument.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 20, 2016, 11:04:01 am
One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?


I can't imagine that 100% or even 75% of the NHC medal winners perform LODO brewing and they are making amazing beers (albeit some of the best in the country, at least that get entered anyway). I bet numbers would be more in the range of under 30% at best.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 11:10:47 am
And, Denny, you being into the experimental brewing thing, this should be right up your alley, dude. Try it and see for yourself. That's basically your motto.

Anyway, I feel like this is a frivolous battle. Brew the way you want to brew that gets you the results you want. End of argument.

I'm also the pragmatic guy....I have to have a reason to expect results, and the process itself has to be reasonable enough so that there's a payback for the effort I put into it.  I don't see that here...yet.  That's why I want to see something other than "the mash smells better" from the people who advocate it.  And yes, I know that there's more to it than the way the mash smells, but at this point I don't see anyting that makes me excited to try it.

And ultimately I agree with you last 3 sentences.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 20, 2016, 11:29:22 am
And, Denny, you being into the experimental brewing thing, this should be right up your alley, dude. Try it and see for yourself. That's basically your motto.

Anyway, I feel like this is a frivolous battle. Brew the way you want to brew that gets you the results you want. End of argument.

I'm also the pragmatic guy....I have to have a reason to expect results, and the process itself has to be reasonable enough so that there's a payback for the effort I put into it.  I don't see that here...yet.  That's why I want to see something other than "the mash smells better" from the people who advocate it.  And yes, I know that there's more to it than the way the mash smells, but at this point I don't see anyting that makes me excited to try it.

And ultimately I agree with you last 3 sentences.
Does this mean you will stop knocking something you haven't tried? Nobody is asking you to endorse it either.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 11:58:28 am
Does this mean you will stop knocking something you haven't tried? Nobody is asking you to endorse it either.

I don't think I've ever "knocked" it, if I understand your meaning.  I have expressed great skepticism and asked for proof.  I will likely continue that until I see proof that inspires me to try it.  And even then, how will I know I've achieved anything since as far as I know there is no definition if "IT".
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 20, 2016, 12:32:46 pm
How are those that spund dealing with the schedule? Are you checking daily and then racking as soon as it hits your racking target?

My schedule isn't flexible enough for daily testing and I am sure those with family commitments are doubly hosed in that regard.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on September 20, 2016, 12:56:03 pm
I haven't tried it yet.

My plan is to use it for the first time when brewing my cask-conditioned Thanksgiving beer. Sometime in the next few weeks I'll brew the recipe and keg as normal. Should give me some good data points, which I'll then use when I rebrew. Hopefully that data enables me to schedule the rebrew such that I have plenty of time to rack/prime/fine the beer when the gravity is ideal.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 20, 2016, 01:03:18 pm
My schedule isn't flexible enough for daily testing and I am sure those with family commitments are doubly hosed in that regard.


Yeah, exactly. It's been tough enough for a while (with the kids' activities) to find time to brew as often as I'd like. So for now, using Brewtan and kegging with ascorbic is as close as I'm getting. Regardless, we do seem to be at diminishing returns with arguing about lodo. But I do appreciate people posting their lodo practices and how they feel the final beer is impacted, as points of data. We're all pretty much scratching the surface on this stuff, so we need to remember to be civil.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 20, 2016, 01:04:43 pm
I still want a spunding valve. Would be crazy helpful for over carbed beers
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 01:40:44 pm
I still want a spunding valve. Would be crazy helpful for over carbed beers

Plans in Experimental Homebrewing
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 20, 2016, 02:29:29 pm
I still want a spunding valve. Would be crazy helpful for over carbed beers

Plans in Experimental Homebrewing
The parts are a bit too high on Amazon right now. Monitoring the prices and will order when they bottom out again.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 21, 2016, 08:21:55 am
Does this mean you will stop knocking something you haven't tried? Nobody is asking you to endorse it either.

I don't think I've ever "knocked" it, if I understand your meaning.  I have expressed great skepticism and asked for proof.  I will likely continue that until I see proof that inspires me to try it.  And even then, how will I know I've achieved anything since as far as I know there is no definition if "IT".
I think that if you don't understand what IT is at this point, then you never will. Fresh lingering grain, like sticking your face in a fresh sack of grain and chewing on a couple of the kernels; standing in a wheat or barley field in the summer with a light breeze blowing in your face...
Besides that, you seem so reluctant to "know" what "IT" is. It's just a pure, rich malt flavor; flavor that malt was intended to impart. Ever had a fresh Bitburger or Ayinger? IT is there and in your face. If you can't taste that, then you never will. Might be like some people get soap from cilantro and other don't.
Not trying to be a jerk, just that you've mentioned multiple times now over the course of this whole thing about there not being a definition. Throw that mentality out the window and drink the beer! You will know.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 21, 2016, 09:39:18 am
I think that if you don't understand what IT is at this point, then you never will. Fresh lingering grain, like sticking your face in a fresh sack of grain and chewing on a couple of the kernels; standing in a wheat or barley field in the summer with a light breeze blowing in your face...
Besides that, you seem so reluctant to "know" what "IT" is. It's just a pure, rich malt flavor; flavor that malt was intended to impart. Ever had a fresh Bitburger or Ayinger? IT is there and in your face. If you can't taste that, then you never will. Might be like some people get soap from cilantro and other don't.
Not trying to be a jerk, just that you've mentioned multiple times now over the course of this whole thing about there not being a definition. Throw that mentality out the window and drink the beer! You will know.

If that's what "IT" is, then I already have "IT" more often than not.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 21, 2016, 09:51:02 am
I think that if you don't understand what IT is at this point, then you never will. Fresh lingering grain, like sticking your face in a fresh sack of grain and chewing on a couple of the kernels; standing in a wheat or barley field in the summer with a light breeze blowing in your face...
Besides that, you seem so reluctant to "know" what "IT" is. It's just a pure, rich malt flavor; flavor that malt was intended to impart. Ever had a fresh Bitburger or Ayinger? IT is there and in your face. If you can't taste that, then you never will. Might be like some people get soap from cilantro and other don't.
Not trying to be a jerk, just that you've mentioned multiple times now over the course of this whole thing about there not being a definition. Throw that mentality out the window and drink the beer! You will know.

If that's what "IT" is, then I already have "IT" more often than not.
Well good for you. Why are you participating in this conversation then? You should be brewing beer professionally that tastes legions better than any American craft beer. Because this fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma is not present in any American craft beer that I've had.
But we've already been over this. Not going through it all again.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 21, 2016, 10:16:22 am
Well good for you. Why are you participating in this conversation then? You should be brewing beer professionally that tastes legions better than any American craft beer. Because this fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma is not present in any American craft beer that I've had.
But we've already been over this. Not going through it all again.

I have no desire to brew commercially.  Never have.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 21, 2016, 12:16:16 pm
Well good for you. Why are you participating in this conversation then? You should be brewing beer professionally that tastes legions better than any American craft beer. Because this fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma is not present in any American craft beer that I've had.
But we've already been over this. Not going through it all again.

I have no desire to brew commercially.  Never have.
Well, I don't blame you there. Just saying, that if you really think you have IT in your beers, you'd be number one in the country. No American craft beer has it that I've tasted. Anyway...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on September 21, 2016, 12:21:23 pm
Well good for you. Why are you participating in this conversation then? You should be brewing beer professionally that tastes legions better than any American craft beer. Because this fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma is not present in any American craft beer that I've had.
But we've already been over this. Not going through it all again.

I have no desire to brew commercially.  Never have.
Well, I don't blame you there. Just saying, that if you really think you have IT in your beers, you'd be number one in the country. No American craft beer has it that I've tasted. Anyway...

Not enough copper  ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on September 21, 2016, 12:35:16 pm
Silly question about handling of this product. I ordered a 50g packet a little less than 3 weeks ago and it has not been delivered yet, so no immediate concerns. When it does come in, how do I store it, especially after opening the packet? I would guess that there will be handling instructions somewhere on the packaging, just curious as I anxiously await delivery. I know Denny and Jon have some already, what are you doing to store it?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 21, 2016, 12:47:37 pm
Silly question about handling of this product. I ordered a 50g packet a little less than 3 weeks ago and it has not been delivered yet, so no immediate concerns. When it does come in, how do I store it, especially after opening the packet? I would guess that there will be handling instructions somewhere on the packaging, just curious as I anxiously await delivery. I know Denny and Jon have some already, what are you doing to store it?


Since it didn't mention any special storage instructions on the package, I put it in a Ziploc and stored it in the kitchen cupboard with my water salts. If it's been 3 weeks you might email them. I emailed at 3 weeks and found out that the order was considered lost. They mailed another package that day and I had it in 2 weeks. Good luck.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 21, 2016, 12:49:19 pm
Silly question about handling of this product. I ordered a 50g packet a little less than 3 weeks ago and it has not been delivered yet, so no immediate concerns. When it does come in, how do I store it, especially after opening the packet? I would guess that there will be handling instructions somewhere on the packaging, just curious as I anxiously await delivery. I know Denny and Jon have some already, what are you doing to store it?

I keep it in the fridge, although I have no idea if it was necessary.  I just got a shipment for the EB experiment and it wasn't refrigerated and didn't have any storage instructions.  I'd guess that's becasue you don't need to do anything special.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on September 21, 2016, 12:50:16 pm
Thanks Jon, haven't quite reached 3 weeks(17 days including weekends) so I am not concerned yet and have not brewed since ordering so I will give it another couple days before emailing them. Good to know on just sealing up in the cupboard. Thanks Denny. How long did your order take to arrive that you just received?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 21, 2016, 12:58:02 pm
I have mine stored in a mason jar in my cupboard. Doesn't seem to need any particular special storage, just cool and dry I'd assume? Or just dry...not sure it matters.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on September 21, 2016, 12:58:39 pm
I'd be curious to hear from the manufacturer on the storage issue.  Question for the podcast maybe?

I've been vacuum sealing it for no particular reason.

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 21, 2016, 01:12:39 pm
Well good for you. Why are you participating in this conversation then? You should be brewing beer professionally that tastes legions better than any American craft beer. Because this fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma is not present in any American craft beer that I've had.
But we've already been over this. Not going through it all again.

I have no desire to brew commercially.  Never have.
Well, I don't blame you there. Just saying, that if you really think you have IT in your beers, you'd be number one in the country. No American craft beer has it that I've tasted. Anyway...

Would that be due to the fact that many use NA malt for at least part of the brew? Check SIerra Nevada's website, even the Oktoberfest has NA 2-row listed first for the malts. I did taste the 2010 WBC gold Pilsner they made in the pilot brewery, that was sublime, not sure if it had IT, but it tasted like an excellent German Pilsner. They can have a free hand with ingredients on one 20 bbl batch than on a production run to fill an 800 bbl (or 1600 bbl in NC) with a 200 bbl brew house.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 21, 2016, 01:45:42 pm
Well good for you. Why are you participating in this conversation then? You should be brewing beer professionally that tastes legions better than any American craft beer. Because this fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma is not present in any American craft beer that I've had.
But we've already been over this. Not going through it all again.

I have no desire to brew commercially.  Never have.
Well, I don't blame you there. Just saying, that if you really think you have IT in your beers, you'd be number one in the country. No American craft beer has it that I've tasted. Anyway...

Would that be due to the fact that many use NA malt for at least part of the brew? Check SIerra Nevada's website, even the Oktoberfest has NA 2-row listed first for the malts. I did taste the 2010 WBC gold Pilsner they made in the pilot brewery, that was sublime, not sure if it had IT, but it tasted like an excellent German Pilsner. They can have a free hand with ingredients on one 20 bbl batch than on a production run to fill an 800 bbl (or 1600 bbl in NC) with a 200 bbl brew house.
Supposedly it doesn't matter what malt you use to get the fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma. SN Oktoberfest is definitely a good beer this year, even though it is rather hoppy. It doesn't have IT, I don't think.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 21, 2016, 02:00:13 pm
Well good for you. Why are you participating in this conversation then? You should be brewing beer professionally that tastes legions better than any American craft beer. Because this fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma is not present in any American craft beer that I've had.
But we've already been over this. Not going through it all again.

I have no desire to brew commercially.  Never have.
Well, I don't blame you there. Just saying, that if you really think you have IT in your beers, you'd be number one in the country. No American craft beer has it that I've tasted. Anyway...

Would that be due to the fact that many use NA malt for at least part of the brew? Check SIerra Nevada's website, even the Oktoberfest has NA 2-row listed first for the malts. I did taste the 2010 WBC gold Pilsner they made in the pilot brewery, that was sublime, not sure if it had IT, but it tasted like an excellent German Pilsner. They can have a free hand with ingredients on one 20 bbl batch than on a production run to fill an 800 bbl (or 1600 bbl in NC) with a 200 bbl brew house.
Supposedly it doesn't matter what malt you use to get the fresh lingering grain flavor/aroma. SN Oktoberfest is definitely a good beer this year, even though it is rather hoppy. It doesn't have IT, I don't think.
They brew with DO water. You can speculate where they don't have it. The brewery in NC is state of the art GEA Huppmann, the bottling line is Krones.

I will ask some questions when I am in NC next month.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on September 21, 2016, 02:25:07 pm
I'd be curious to hear from the manufacturer on the storage issue.  Question for the podcast maybe?

I've been vacuum sealing it for no particular reason.
Other than, like me, you enjoy using the vacuum sealer?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on September 21, 2016, 02:39:24 pm

They brew with DO water. You can speculate where they don't have it. The brewery in NC is state of the art GEA Huppmann, the bottling line is Krones.

I will ask some questions when I am in NC next month.

FWIW, I have noticed "IT" in some bottles of this beer. Based on my location I'd guess it came from the Mills River plant.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: EnkAMania on September 21, 2016, 02:50:18 pm
I'd be curious to hear from the manufacturer on the storage issue.  Question for the podcast maybe?

I've been vacuum sealing it for no particular reason.

I vacuum seal it too, because that's how it came.  I keep it stored with my grains.  Hopefully room temp is ok.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 21, 2016, 02:58:28 pm
Thanks Jon, haven't quite reached 3 weeks(17 days including weekends) so I am not concerned yet and have not brewed since ordering so I will give it another couple days before emailing them. Good to know on just sealing up in the cupboard. Thanks Denny. How long did your order take to arrive that you just received?

Well, it's kinda different...I got them directly from my contact at the company.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 21, 2016, 02:59:09 pm
I'd be curious to hear from the manufacturer on the storage issue.  Question for the podcast maybe?

I've been vacuum sealing it for no particular reason.

I'll definitely ask him.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 21, 2016, 03:02:33 pm

They brew with DO water. You can speculate where they don't have it. The brewery in NC is state of the art GEA Huppmann, the bottling line is Krones.

I will ask some questions when I am in NC next month.

Jeff, just to be sure I understand, are you saying they dissolve oxygen onto their water?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dbeechum on September 21, 2016, 04:34:19 pm
I would guess it means de-oxygenated water.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 21, 2016, 04:39:59 pm
I would guess it means de-oxygenated water.


Yeah, I'd be curious if they preboil at that scale or use some other means to deoxygenate.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on September 21, 2016, 04:50:21 pm
Thanks Jon, haven't quite reached 3 weeks(17 days including weekends) so I am not concerned yet and have not brewed since ordering so I will give it another couple days before emailing them. Good to know on just sealing up in the cupboard. Thanks Denny. How long did your order take to arrive that you just received?

Well, it's kinda different...I got them directly from my contact at the company.
Thanks Denny,  I guess I knew that, just wasn't thinking about that nice hookup you have
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on September 21, 2016, 05:15:41 pm
Since ive gone lodo I seem to get more of that fresh grain flavor and aroma (IT) in my light lagers compared to my amber and dark lagers. Maybe it has something to do with more Pils malt vs darker Munich's and specialty malts? My darker beers are better too but nothing like the smack you in the face flavor and especially the aroma I get from my Helles. I had a old beer drinking buddy over this last weekend, we were drinking my helles and he said " this smells so good I could sit here with my nose in this mug all night".
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 21, 2016, 05:23:10 pm

They brew with DO water. You can speculate where they don't have it. The brewery in NC is state of the art GEA Huppmann, the bottling line is Krones.

I will ask some questions when I am in NC next month.

Jeff, just to be sure I understand, are you saying they dissolve oxygen onto their water?
De-oxiginated water. They gave column strippers that do that. Just like the German breweries.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 21, 2016, 05:24:04 pm
I would guess it means de-oxygenated water.


Yeah, I'd be curious if they preboil at that scale or use some other means to deoxygenate.
Column strippers. They have very low mineral content water in Mills River, but a big water treatment room. The equipment was similar to what I saw in Germany.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 21, 2016, 05:24:37 pm
They gave column strippers that do that. Just like the German breweries.


Thanks, Jeff. I didn't see preboiling as feasible at that stage.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 21, 2016, 05:28:34 pm
They gave column strippers that do that. Just like the German breweries.


Thanks, Jeff. I didn't see preboiling as feasible at that stage.
Or the amount they need.

DO water is used everywhere in a big brewery. Boilers, to push beer long distances, for the mash, and in the packaging lines.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on September 21, 2016, 06:18:45 pm
So, who's the first to incorporate one of these into their brewery?

http://store.liqui-cel.com/
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 21, 2016, 06:26:55 pm
So, who's the first to incorporate one of these into their brewery?

http://store.liqui-cel.com/
One of the guys on the gbf picked up a used one somewhere.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 21, 2016, 06:30:04 pm
So, who's the first to incorporate one of these into their brewery?

http://store.liqui-cel.com/



Hadn't seen those. I'll bet somebody here jumps on one, for the outlet side of their RO system.


Edit - If you're committed to low O2 water, it would beat the hell out of preboiling.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on September 21, 2016, 06:51:53 pm
So, who's the first to incorporate one of these into their brewery?

http://store.liqui-cel.com/



Hadn't seen those. I'll bet somebody here jumps on one, for the outlet side of their RO system.


Edit - If you're committed to low O2 water, it would beat the hell out of preboiling.
The cheap ones have tens of milliliters per minute flow rates. At 20 ml/minute it would take 3 hours to process 1 gallon. You would need to think ahead to make your water.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 21, 2016, 07:14:15 pm
So, who's the first to incorporate one of these into their brewery?

http://store.liqui-cel.com/



Hadn't seen those. I'll bet somebody here jumps on one, for the outlet side of their RO system.


Edit - If you're committed to low O2 water, it would beat the hell out of preboiling.
The cheap ones have tens of milliliters per minute flow rates. At 20 ml/minute it would take 3 hours to process 1 gallon. You would need to think ahead to make your water.


Ok, then there's that!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 21, 2016, 07:21:52 pm
So, who's the first to incorporate one of these into their brewery?

http://store.liqui-cel.com/



Hadn't seen those. I'll bet somebody here jumps on one, for the outlet side of their RO system.


Edit - If you're committed to low O2 water, it would beat the hell out of preboiling.
The cheap ones have tens of milliliters per minute flow rates. At 20 ml/minute it would take 3 hours to process 1 gallon. You would need to think ahead to make your water.


Ok, then there's that!
Would it need to be stored in a vacuum evacuated container? Normal air will dissolve over the amount of time it takes to pull 10 gallons.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on September 21, 2016, 07:24:48 pm
You need a vacuum generator.  Then you have to heat your water in an oxygen free environment or it will reabsorb O2.  Seems like preboiling is easier.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on September 22, 2016, 05:56:43 am
Somebody might be able to engineer a system to take advantage of them though. If you made a kettle more like a commercial one (Fixed in place, with a chimney) you could setup some sort of system to purge it with nitrogen or CO2. Have the outlet of the water supply lead right to the kettle, then heat it in place under the inert gas blanket.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on September 22, 2016, 08:30:27 am
Sure but you still need a vacuum generator to run the filter.  Not sure how cheap you can go... I know there are attachments for compressors.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: toby on September 22, 2016, 08:42:12 am
Something that occurs to me based on a comment about mash (either LODO or Brewtan) 'smelling better' is that wouldn't the old saw about aroma compounds apply to malt as well as hops?  IOW, if you smell it once, you probably won't smell it again.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Hand of Dom on September 22, 2016, 09:16:48 am
Something that occurs to me based on a comment about mash (either LODO or Brewtan) 'smelling better' is that wouldn't the old saw about aroma compounds apply to malt as well as hops?  IOW, if you smell it once, you probably won't smell it again.

This is why I wear a noseclip whilst brewing.   ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 22, 2016, 09:33:02 am
Something that occurs to me based on a comment about mash (either LODO or Brewtan) 'smelling better' is that wouldn't the old saw about aroma compounds apply to malt as well as hops?  IOW, if you smell it once, you probably won't smell it again.
I didn't comment on this but I thought it...if you're smelling the mash, you're losing those fresh malt flavors and aromas. Same goes if you boil too hard. It's plausible anyway...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 22, 2016, 09:34:02 am
Jeff, just to be sure I understand, are you saying they dissolve oxygen onto their water?
De-oxiginated water. They gave column strippers that do that. Just like the German breweries.
[/quote]

Oh, yeah, as soon as I heard de-oxygenated I recalled that from Beer Camp.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 22, 2016, 09:34:57 am
Something that occurs to me based on a comment about mash (either LODO or Brewtan) 'smelling better' is that wouldn't the old saw about aroma compounds apply to malt as well as hops?  IOW, if you smell it once, you probably won't smell it again.

I was talking to a food scientist about that recently and he said that on old wive's tale.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 22, 2016, 10:18:26 am
Something that occurs to me based on a comment about mash (either LODO or Brewtan) 'smelling better' is that wouldn't the old saw about aroma compounds apply to malt as well as hops?  IOW, if you smell it once, you probably won't smell it again.
I can't speak about the brewtan side, but for the lodo when done right you don't smell the mash.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on September 22, 2016, 02:35:51 pm
Came home from work today and found my packet of Brewtan B waiting in the mailbox for me. Now to put it to use, but won't likely be till next month
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 22, 2016, 02:40:46 pm
Some were asking about storage
Per wyeast -
Stability:   1 year, stored in airtight container in cool environment
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 22, 2016, 03:29:20 pm
Some were asking about storage
Per wyeast -
Stability:   1 year, stored in airtight container in cool environment

Yep, can't hurt.  And after all of my protestations, I tokk the extraordinary measure of actually contacting Joe to get usage info..surprise, surprise, I was wrong...again....here's what he said...

I add 1/4 tsp per 5 gal of strike and sparge water, and 1/2 tsp as a slurry 15-16 min before the end of the boil. If you like using the Irish moss for 15, then add it 1 min before that.

So it is water volume based, not batch volume.  And it does indeed go in the sparge, too.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 22, 2016, 03:47:45 pm
Some were asking about storage
Per wyeast -
Stability:   1 year, stored in airtight container in cool environment

Yep, can't hurt.  And after all of my protestations, I tokk the extraordinary measure of actually contacting Joe to get usage info..surprise, surprise, I was wrong...again....here's what he said...

I add 1/4 tsp per 5 gal of strike and sparge water, and 1/2 tsp as a slurry 15-16 min before the end of the boil. If you like using the Irish moss for 15, then add it 1 min before that.

So it is water volume based, not batch volume.  And it does indeed go in the sparge, too.



Thanks. Denny.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on September 22, 2016, 07:41:54 pm
Some were asking about storage
Per wyeast -
Stability:   1 year, stored in airtight container in cool environment

Yep, can't hurt.  And after all of my protestations, I tokk the extraordinary measure of actually contacting Joe to get usage info..surprise, surprise, I was wrong...again....here's what he said...

I add 1/4 tsp per 5 gal of strike and sparge water, and 1/2 tsp as a slurry 15-16 min before the end of the boil. If you like using the Irish moss for 15, then add it 1 min before that.

So it is water volume based, not batch volume.  And it does indeed go in the sparge, too.
Aha! I wondered... thanks for the infos.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mainebrewer on September 23, 2016, 04:19:12 am
Some were asking about storage
Per wyeast -
Stability:   1 year, stored in airtight container in cool environment

Yep, can't hurt.  And after all of my protestations, I tokk the extraordinary measure of actually contacting Joe to get usage info..surprise, surprise, I was wrong...again....here's what he said...

I add 1/4 tsp per 5 gal of strike and sparge water, and 1/2 tsp as a slurry 15-16 min before the end of the boil. If you like using the Irish moss for 15, then add it 1 min before that.

So it is water volume based, not batch volume.  And it does indeed go in the sparge, too.

Do the kettle finings go in before or after the Brewtan B?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ynotbrusum on September 23, 2016, 06:04:46 am
Some were asking about storage
Per wyeast -
Stability:   1 year, stored in airtight container in cool environment

Yep, can't hurt.  And after all of my protestations, I tokk the extraordinary measure of actually contacting Joe to get usage info..surprise, surprise, I was wrong...again....here's what he said...

I add 1/4 tsp per 5 gal of strike and sparge water, and 1/2 tsp as a slurry 15-16 min before the end of the boil. If you like using the Irish moss for 15, then add it 1 min before that.

So it is water volume based, not batch volume.  And it does indeed go in the sparge, too.

Do the kettle finings go in before or after the Brewtan B?

Brewtan first then finings.  I had not read this thread in a couple months, but I am encouraged about the Brewtan-B and continuing some of the lodo process - but I am not going to obsess about it.  Like I mentioned in another thread, the bronze medal International Beer Cup winner was from Crystal Lake, IL.  They don't do anything special - but they suggest drinking it very fresh.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mainebrewer on September 23, 2016, 02:22:04 pm
Some were asking about storage
Per wyeast -
Stability:   1 year, stored in airtight container in cool environment

Yep, can't hurt.  And after all of my protestations, I tokk the extraordinary measure of actually contacting Joe to get usage info..surprise, surprise, I was wrong...again....here's what he said...

I add 1/4 tsp per 5 gal of strike and sparge water, and 1/2 tsp as a slurry 15-16 min before the end of the boil. If you like using the Irish moss for 15, then add it 1 min before that.

So it is water volume based, not batch volume.  And it does indeed go in the sparge, too.

Do the kettle finings go in before or after the Brewtan B?

Brewtan first then finings.  I had not read this thread in a couple months, but I am encouraged about the Brewtan-B and continuing some of the lodo process - but I am not going to obsess about it.  Like I mentioned in another thread, the bronze medal International Beer Cup winner was from Crystal Lake, IL.  They don't do anything special - but they suggest drinking it very fresh.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ynotbrusum on September 23, 2016, 03:31:54 pm
I meant to say that the bronze was for a German Helles and it was up against German breweries, as well as others.  Nice to see a little American brewery come out ahead using standard American processes in what is clearly a German-centric matter as discussed in this thread.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: RPIScotty on September 24, 2016, 10:01:27 pm
Didn't RPIscotty brew mostly Belgian beers? If he's gone whole-LODO he'd be a good source on that info.

While I'm not going LODO, (it's hard enough brewing in my house as it is) I'm becoming sold on the spunding idea. Seems the Brits have been basically doing the same thing in a way, transferring to the cask before the primary fermentation has completely finished. Granted, they do add wort/sugar to prime the keg at this point, but the still-active yeast should be doing much to scrub O2. It'd be interesting to see how well this would work compared to trying to transfer to a purged keg.

Warren Buffett says it best:

"There seems to be some perverse human characteristic that likes to make easy things difficult."
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on September 29, 2016, 09:57:26 pm
Apparently I have somehow been entirely ignorant and perhaps noticeably absent regarding all this talk about deoxygenated water and Brewtan, etc.

Until today.  Today I wasted hours reading up on all this sh!t.  And that is my tentative conclusion: it is sh!t.

The pseudo science and recommended practice of a 30 minute protein rest killed it for me, not to mention that a friend of mine can achieve "it" with a single infusion and nothing special other than using continental malt, hops, and the right yeast.

Yes, I know what "it" is, and I love and crave "it".  I think maybe I even can get close to "it" in my own beers.  However this all also leads me to believe that there's little if any need to futz with this secretive fake sciency LODO and Brewtan stuff.

I will let you guys run these experiments while I continue to play with "regular" decoction and efficiency.  Results coming soon/eventually on my triangles.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on September 30, 2016, 07:41:05 am
30 min protien rest?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 30, 2016, 07:54:41 am
Apparently I have somehow been entirely ignorant and perhaps noticeably absent regarding all this talk about deoxygenated water and Brewtan, etc.

Until today.  Today I wasted hours reading up on all this sh!t.  And that is my tentative conclusion: it is sh!t.

The pseudo science and recommended practice of a 30 minute protein rest killed it for me, not to mention that a friend of mine can achieve "it" with a single infusion and nothing special other than using continental malt, hops, and the right yeast.

Yes, I know what "it" is, and I love and crave "it".  I think maybe I even can get close to "it" in my own beers.  However this all also leads me to believe that there's little if any need to futz with this secretive fake sciency LODO and Brewtan stuff.

I will let you guys run these experiments while I continue to play with "regular" decoction and efficiency.  Results coming soon/eventually on my triangles.
Sorry man, but nobody here is going to believe that you know what "it" is or that your friend can make "it" without research papers, backup data and triangle test.
On a different note, 30 min protein rest.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: reverseapachemaster on September 30, 2016, 08:44:25 am
Sorry man, but nobody here is going to believe that you know what "it" is or that your friend can make "it" without research papers, backup data and triangle test.
On a different note, 30 min protein rest.

What if he types up his conclusions in a manner that makes it look like it was published in a peer-reviewed journal and insists he has data but doesn't publish it? Or does he need vague cites to actual research for the trifecta?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 30, 2016, 08:47:54 am
Sorry man, but nobody here is going to believe that you know what "it" is or that your friend can make "it" without research papers, backup data and triangle test.
On a different note, 30 min protein rest.

What if he types up his conclusions in a manner that makes it look like it was published in a peer-reviewed journal and insists he has data but doesn't publish it? Or does he need vague cites to actual research for the trifecta?
I think we have already seen that's not enough.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 30, 2016, 08:50:30 am
What if he grows a sweet beard with a handlebar mustache?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on September 30, 2016, 08:58:18 am
What if he grows a sweet beard with a handlebar mustache?

That would be it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 30, 2016, 09:01:08 am
What if he grows a sweet beard with a handlebar mustache?
Couldn't hurt
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on September 30, 2016, 09:19:35 am
What if he grows a sweet beard with a handlebar mustache?

As long as he didn't try to spontaneously ferment said "it" beer with beard yeast.  :P
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 30, 2016, 09:22:15 am
What if he grows a sweet beard with a handlebar mustache?

One of my observations during my recent trip to Germany, is that there has been an large outbreak of manbuns.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 30, 2016, 09:23:43 am
One of my observations during my recent trip to Germany, is that there has been an large outbreak of manbuns.
Well that sucks.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 09:25:13 am
What if he grows a sweet beard with a handlebar mustache?

One of my observations during my recent trip to Germany, is that there has been an large outbreak of manbuns.


A couple of really unfortunate looks. Handlebar 'stache and/or manbun = D-bag. Period.  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 30, 2016, 09:25:43 am
One of my observations during my recent trip to Germany, is that there has been an large outbreak of manbuns.
Well that sucks.
Yeah, don't remember any on last falls trip. That trend was fast.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 30, 2016, 09:26:50 am
This guy is smiling because he knows what it is.

(http://imghumour.com/assets/Uploads/Wizard-looking-beard.jpg)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: 69franx on September 30, 2016, 09:47:49 am
This guy is smiling because he knows what it is.

(http://imghumour.com/assets/Uploads/Wizard-looking-beard.jpg)
Was this shot from the world beard championships? They actually had a short lived TV show based on that championship, ridiculous
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 30, 2016, 09:59:06 am
Apparently I have somehow been entirely ignorant and perhaps noticeably absent regarding all this talk about deoxygenated water and Brewtan, etc.

Until today.  Today I wasted hours reading up on all this sh!t.  And that is my tentative conclusion: it is sh!t.

The pseudo science and recommended practice of a 30 minute protein rest killed it for me, not to mention that a friend of mine can achieve "it" with a single infusion and nothing special other than using continental malt, hops, and the right yeast.

Yes, I know what "it" is, and I love and crave "it".  I think maybe I even can get close to "it" in my own beers.  However this all also leads me to believe that there's little if any need to futz with this secretive fake sciency LODO and Brewtan stuff.

I will let you guys run these experiments while I continue to play with "regular" decoction and efficiency.  Results coming soon/eventually on my triangles.

Dave, I'm 99% certain Brewtan improved my beers with minimal effort.  That's why we have 15 brewers lined up to do an experiment with it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 10:02:18 am
Dave, I'm 99% certain Brewtan improved my beers with minimal effort.  That's why we have 15 brewers lined up to do an experiment with it.


Same here.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on September 30, 2016, 10:14:18 am
Dave, I'm 99% certain Brewtan improved my beers with minimal effort.  That's why we have 15 brewers lined up to do an experiment with it.

Wow.  Alright then, maybe I should be more open minded, like the Germans.   :o

I guess I posted in the wrong thread.  I'll copy and repost in the other one.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on September 30, 2016, 10:15:32 am
Or wait until the experiment is concluded to see if it's all just confirmation bias and magic fairy dust.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 30, 2016, 10:28:08 am
Or wait until the experiment is concluded to see if it's all just confirmation bias and magic fairy dust.

THIS^^^^  Like I said in the last podcast, I've actually been wrong before....
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 10:42:00 am
Or wait until the experiment is concluded to see if it's all just confirmation bias and magic fairy dust.

THIS^^^^  Like I said in the last podcast, I've actually been wrong before....



I'm looking forward to the results, regardless. I haven't done my double batch yet (hoping to do it fairly soon, an APA with some of Ted H's hops) to see what people notice or don't. I notice improvement but that's anecdotal at this point. I've been wrong before.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 30, 2016, 10:45:42 am
Or wait until the experiment is concluded to see if it's all just confirmation bias and magic fairy dust.

THIS^^^^  Like I said in the last podcast, I've actually been wrong before....



I'm looking forward to the results, regardless. I haven't done my double batch yet (hoping to do it fairly soon, an APA with some of Ted H's hops) to see what people notice or don't. I notice improvement but that's anecdotal at this point. I've been wrong before.

The back to back batches I did were markedly different.  But that's only a single test so I'm not drawing any definitive conclusions from it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 10:58:36 am
Or wait until the experiment is concluded to see if it's all just confirmation bias and magic fairy dust.

THIS^^^^  Like I said in the last podcast, I've actually been wrong before....



I'm looking forward to the results, regardless. I haven't done my double batch yet (hoping to do it fairly soon, an APA with some of Ted H's hops) to see what people notice or don't. I notice improvement but that's anecdotal at this point. I've been wrong before.

The back to back batches I did were markedly different.  But that's only a single test so I'm not drawing any definitive conclusions from it.

Interesting.  As for shelf life, I bottled a few of the the first two beers I used it on - a German pils and a Marzen. At 3 months old (admittedly not a long time), both seem as fresh as the day I tapped. For reference, I have had average strength lagers that were good but a little past their peak freshness at 3 months. Gonna sample again at 6 months.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 30, 2016, 11:00:23 am
Or wait until the experiment is concluded to see if it's all just confirmation bias and magic fairy dust.

THIS^^^^  Like I said in the last podcast, I've actually been wrong before....



I'm looking forward to the results, regardless. I haven't done my double batch yet (hoping to do it fairly soon, an APA with some of Ted H's hops) to see what people notice or don't. I notice improvement but that's anecdotal at this point. I've been wrong before.

The back to back batches I did were markedly different.  But that's only a single test so I'm not drawing any definitive conclusions from it.

And wasn't that before dosage rates were correct as well?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on September 30, 2016, 11:04:44 am
The beer I'll be testing is a simple blonde with 27ibu at first wort. Clean and malty, nothing to hide or mask possible benefits.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 30, 2016, 11:26:26 am
And wasn't that before dosage rates were correct as well?

Sure was.  When I mentioned it to Joe he said it ought to help anyway and it seemed to.  We're interviewing him for the podcast in about 3 hours.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on September 30, 2016, 12:19:53 pm
Sorry man, but nobody here is going to believe that you know what "it" is or that your friend can make "it" without research papers, backup data and triangle test.
On a different note, 30 min protein rest.

What if he types up his conclusions in a manner that makes it look like it was published in a peer-reviewed journal and insists he has data but doesn't publish it? Or does he need vague cites to actual research for the trifecta?
Anyone can write a paper that looks scientific...

https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 30, 2016, 12:58:30 pm
Sorry man, but nobody here is going to believe that you know what "it" is or that your friend can make "it" without research papers, backup data and triangle test.
On a different note, 30 min protein rest.

What if he types up his conclusions in a manner that makes it look like it was published in a peer-reviewed journal and insists he has data but doesn't publish it? Or does he need vague cites to actual research for the trifecta?
Anyone can write a paper that looks scientific...

https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/
Maybe.. but when you actually try what said paper is talking about and it works, there's a very good chance it's legit.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 01:41:45 pm
Maybe.. but when you actually try what said paper is talking about and it works, there's a very good chance it's legit.


Try not to generalize the negative reaction to the GBF paper into one response. Yes, there were some people who felt that the data was presented as a scientific paper without scientific 'evidence'. Then there were lots of people like me who just felt that the process as presented in its absolutes of 'zero oxygen at every single phase' might well work but just wasn't feasible in the home. This whole idea of lodo brewing is fairly new to most homebrewers and it's gonna take some time for people to find their way, assuming they decide to try it out. Each his own.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 30, 2016, 01:50:41 pm
Sorry man, but nobody here is going to believe that you know what "it" is or that your friend can make "it" without research papers, backup data and triangle test.
On a different note, 30 min protein rest.

What if he types up his conclusions in a manner that makes it look like it was published in a peer-reviewed journal and insists he has data but doesn't publish it? Or does he need vague cites to actual research for the trifecta?
Anyone can write a paper that looks scientific...

https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/
Maybe.. but when you actually try what said paper is talking about and it works, there's a very good chance it's legit.

or that it's confirmation bias.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on September 30, 2016, 01:55:23 pm
I think it's groundhog day.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 01:56:53 pm
I think it's groundhog day.

Yep, seems that way.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 30, 2016, 02:09:42 pm
I think it's groundhog day.
Isn't every day?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on September 30, 2016, 02:16:22 pm
I really wish some of you guys lived closer to me. Would have to do a demo. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 30, 2016, 03:57:45 pm
And wasn't that before dosage rates were correct as well?

Sure was.  When I mentioned it to Joe he said it ought to help anyway and it seemed to.  We're interviewing him for the podcast in about 3 hours.

Will be brewing a Scottish Export in a couple weeks and will incorporate the correct dosing we discussed based on volume for both mash and sparge (and in the kettle). I still have yet to tap into my dortmunder which was the first one with the old dosing rate.
Can't wait to hear what Joe has to say regarding the product. Wish I was a fly on the wall. Guess I will have to wait for you to release it on the website. Thanks Denny!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 04:06:02 pm
And wasn't that before dosage rates were correct as well?

Sure was.  When I mentioned it to Joe he said it ought to help anyway and it seemed to.  We're interviewing him for the podcast in about 3 hours.

Will be brewing a Scottish Export in a couple weeks and will incorporate the correct dosing we discussed based on volume for both mash and sparge (and in the kettle). I still have yet to tap into my dortmunder which was the first one with the old dosing rate.
Can't wait to hear what Joe has to say regarding the product. Wish I was a fly on the wall. Guess I will have to wait for you to release it on the website. Thanks Denny!


Yeah, looking forward to hearing the interview.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on September 30, 2016, 04:25:16 pm
Joe's interview will be on Episode 25 coming out on 10/12.  When we get the results of our experiment, he'll be back to discuss them.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on September 30, 2016, 05:27:55 pm
Joe's interview will be on Episode 25 coming out on 10/12.  When we get the results of our experiment, he'll be back to discuss them.

Very cool.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 11, 2016, 10:35:45 am
Sorry man, but nobody here is going to believe that you know what "it" is or that your friend can make "it" without research papers, backup data and triangle test.
On a different note, 30 min protein rest.

What if he types up his conclusions in a manner that makes it look like it was published in a peer-reviewed journal and insists he has data but doesn't publish it? Or does he need vague cites to actual research for the trifecta?
Anyone can write a paper that looks scientific...

https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/
Maybe.. but when you actually try what said paper is talking about and it works, there's a very good chance it's legit.

or that it's confirmation bias.

This is a very curious statement.

I'm from NY so let's use apples as an example:

At a basic level, if I give you a Gala apple from NY and a Gala apple from NZ, and I hint at the fact over and over again that the NZ Gala definitely tastes different, one could be forgiven for letting confirmation bias creep in. The flavors are likely to be so close that separating the two would be tough.

Now let's step it up another level. Now I give you a Gala apple and a Macintosh. It becomes a bit easier to discern the differences. Now let's say I give you a Gala and a Golden Delicious. It is now becoming incredibly easy to instantly discern the difference.

Now let's send it into the stratosphere: if I give you an apple and an orange, I highly doubt there needs to be any sensory analysis to prove they are different.

The point being that confirmation bias, in the form of sensory analysis of a beer, is more likely in situations where the control and variable are increasing similar (Gala/Gala, Brewtan/no brewtan) rather than increasingly different (Gala/GD, Apple/Orange, Low O2/Non Low O2).

Calling confirmation bias on people using the Low O2 methods, while touting how well Brewtan is working for you is a bit like "the pot calling the kettle black".

I wouldn't discount your influence on so many of the Brewers in the homebrewing community at large as another potential factor for the sudden "improvements" in people's product since using Brewtan.

I also wouldn't discount, in a general sense, that the recent discussions on oxygen in brewing haven't, in some subconscious way, change people's habits on at least the hot side of the process. In this sense, these improvements alone could explain why people are tasting "better" product using Brewtan.

Which is not to say you are not getting better product. It just seems unlikely.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 11, 2016, 10:56:13 am
Derek, have you personally used Brewtan B? I have multiple times, and don't need Denny (or anyone else) to tell me the beers are different. Not quite Gala to Macintosh IMO. It just seems that we have a group of brewers here that have taken the reins from a guy who used to post here umm.....quite forcefully, ie, "My way or you're doing it wrong". There are a lot of ways to make good beer and I'm open to trying any of them, but I've yet to see any evidence of a single way to doing it right.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 11, 2016, 10:59:28 am

Calling confirmation bias on people using the Low O2 methods, while touting how well Brewtan is working for you is a bit like "the pot calling the kettle black".

I wouldn't discount your influence on so many of the Brewers in the homebrewing community at large as another potential factor for the sudden "improvements" in people's product since using Brewtan.

I also wouldn't discount, in a general sense, that the recent discussions on oxygen in brewing haven't, in some subconscious way, change people's habits on at least the hot side of the process. In this sense, these improvements alone could explain why people are tasting "better" product using Brewtan.

Which is not to say you are not getting better product. It just seems unlikely.

I wonder if it's confirmation bias, I don't assume one way or the other.  We'll find out when we have 15 brewers do back to back batches with and without Brewtan and then conduct blind tastings  Hopefully that will give us some solid evidence.  I only wish the LODO people would do the same.  And why is it any more unlikely that Brewtan improves the beer than that LODO does?  At least there are years of scientific studies behind Brewtan.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 11, 2016, 11:02:38 am
I'll nibble...

My sincere apologies again, please forgive me if I ever resemble a certain "Bryan" or others who change their username over and over and over again.  I've been the same dmtaylor online since the birth of the interwebs, and David M. Taylor offline for almost 42 years.  In real life I might even be considered kind of a nice guy.  This internet thing does weird stuff to the words that come out of my fingertips.

I totally agree that there's a thousand different ways to skin a mongoose, and none are wrong, unless you're a vegetarian.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 11, 2016, 11:03:19 am

Calling confirmation bias on people using the Low O2 methods, while touting how well Brewtan is working for you is a bit like "the pot calling the kettle black".

I wouldn't discount your influence on so many of the Brewers in the homebrewing community at large as another potential factor for the sudden "improvements" in people's product since using Brewtan.

I also wouldn't discount, in a general sense, that the recent discussions on oxygen in brewing haven't, in some subconscious way, change people's habits on at least the hot side of the process. In this sense, these improvements alone could explain why people are tasting "better" product using Brewtan.

Which is not to say you are not getting better product. It just seems unlikely.

I only wish the LODO people would do the same. 
Maybe they have and just don't want to share it with you...

Quote from: dmtaylor
I'll nibble...

My sincere apologies again, please forgive me if I ever resemble a certain "Bryan" or others who change their username over and over and over again.  I've been the same dmtaylor online since the birth of the interwebs, and David M. Taylor offline for almost 42 years.  In real life I might even be considered kind of a nice guy.  This internet thing does weird stuff to the words that come out of my fingertips.

I totally agree that there's a thousand different ways to skin a mongoose, and none are wrong, unless you're a vegetarian.

Cheers.
Now your social security number, address, and birth date, please?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 11, 2016, 11:05:00 am
Maybe they have and just don't want to share it with you...

Which is their choice, but I find that pretty silly if it's indeed true.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 11, 2016, 11:09:35 am
Maybe they have and just don't want to share it with you...

Which is their choice, but I find that pretty silly if it's indeed true.
Not disagreeing with you. Just maybe they want you to find out for yourself, eh? That's what you always tell everyone else! Try it and see for yourself!

I certainly have noticed a difference in malt quality. Not going to do blind taste tests or any of that. All I know is I'm brewing better beer now because of it. If anything I think reduced O2 is better than not trying at all; an every-little-bit-counts sorta deal.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 11, 2016, 11:10:34 am
Now your social security number, address, and birth date, please?

I'm sure it's all there for those willing to pay the $9.95.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 11, 2016, 11:16:04 am

Calling confirmation bias on people using the Low O2 methods, while touting how well Brewtan is working for you is a bit like "the pot calling the kettle black".

I wouldn't discount your influence on so many of the Brewers in the homebrewing community at large as another potential factor for the sudden "improvements" in people's product since using Brewtan.

I also wouldn't discount, in a general sense, that the recent discussions on oxygen in brewing haven't, in some subconscious way, change people's habits on at least the hot side of the process. In this sense, these improvements alone could explain why people are tasting "better" product using Brewtan.

Which is not to say you are not getting better product. It just seems unlikely.

I wonder if it's confirmation bias, I don't assume one way or the other.  We'll find out when we have 15 brewers do back to back batches with and without Brewtan and then conduct blind tastings  Hopefully that will give us some solid evidence.  I only wish the LODO people would do the same.  And why is it any more unlikely that Brewtan improves the beer than that LODO does?  At least there are years of scientific studies behind Brewtan.

The basic concepts that drive Low O2 brewing are detailed in innumerable brewing textbooks and scientific papers dating back to at least the early 1970s.

I would think what drives most people's desire for "evidence" and "experiments" is the desire to not have to tread new water without assurance. Which is fine. I can grasp that some people don't want to buy new equipment, try new methods, etc.

The assurance is in the plentiful backlog of scientific materials detailing the basics of the process. The choice is always in the Brewers hands whether to use those resources.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 11, 2016, 11:18:42 am
Derek,

Rather than rehash the discussion about brewing textbooks, how about a report on your journey?  You've pulled a rather dramatic 180.

What gives?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 11, 2016, 11:30:06 am
For me the difference is night and day, I don't see a reason to do further testing to prove it works. Any testing at this point is to streamline o2 reduction in my brewing process. Would the more and more people popping up saying it works not be at least a little conformation, for those that need proof before trying it? Another note this Bryan person must have really pissed everyone off here.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 11, 2016, 12:09:37 pm
For me the difference is night and day, I don't see a reason to do further testing to prove it works. Any testing at this point is to streamline o2 reduction in my brewing process. Would the more and more people popping up saying it works not be at least a little conformation, for those that need proof before trying it? Another note this Bryan person must have really pissed everyone off here.

OK, then I'll use the same standard of evidence for Brewtan...it's SO OBVIOUS it works that I don't need to do any objective testing.  Would you accept that?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 11, 2016, 12:17:10 pm
For me the difference is night and day, I don't see a reason to do further testing to prove it works. Any testing at this point is to streamline o2 reduction in my brewing process. Would the more and more people popping up saying it works not be at least a little conformation, for those that need proof before trying it? Another note this Bryan person must have really pissed everyone off here.

OK, then I'll use the same standard of evidence for Brewtan...it's SO OBVIOUS it works that I don't need to do any objective testing.  Would you accept that?
I'm am not saying brewtan does not work, at all. And I am more than willing to try it myself. See the difference, i am willing to find out on my own. My initial speculation is they will yield different results, but more than willing to try it for myself. Where is everyone getting it anyway?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 11, 2016, 12:18:07 pm
Australia, for some strange reason.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 11, 2016, 12:18:38 pm
Derek,

Rather than rehash the discussion about brewing textbooks, how about a report on your journey?  You've pulled a rather dramatic 180.

What gives?

I only brought up the sources as counterpoint.

My tastes shifted towards German lagers and the next logical step was to reconsider my position on Low O2. That's pretty much it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: EnkAMania on October 11, 2016, 12:21:03 pm
For me the difference is night and day, I don't see a reason to do further testing to prove it works. Any testing at this point is to streamline o2 reduction in my brewing process. Would the more and more people popping up saying it works not be at least a little conformation, for those that need proof before trying it? Another note this Bryan person must have really pissed everyone off here.

OK, then I'll use the same standard of evidence for Brewtan...it's SO OBVIOUS it works that I don't need to do any objective testing.  Would you accept that?
I'm am not saying brewtan does not work, at all. And I am more than willing to try it myself. See the difference, i am willing to find out on my own. My initial speculation is they will yield different results, but more than willing to try it for myself. Where is everyone getting it anyway?

Here's where I got mine http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 11, 2016, 12:54:24 pm
Back on topic, slightly, Wyeast does sell brewtan, but in large sizes and only commercially.  I'm not sure if this means to any wholesaler or just to breweries.

http://wyeastlab.com/com_b_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=13

I'm thinking about asking my LHBS if they could order this from their distributor, and if they'd be willing to repackage it in smaller amounts. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 11, 2016, 12:56:39 pm
Derek,

Rather than rehash the discussion about brewing textbooks, how about a report on your journey?  You've pulled a rather dramatic 180.

What gives?

I only brought up the sources as counterpoint.

My tastes shifted towards German lagers and the next logical step was to reconsider my position on Low O2. That's pretty much it.

Sorry.  Can't let you off that easy.

Were you brewing German lagers previously?  Were the results between the two different methods that dramatic?

What about your Belgian beers?  Have you done those low O2?  Were the results similar?  You previously has a theory (IIRC) that copper might actually be necessary (or was it simply beneficial?) for Belgian beers.  But no copper is allowed over by there where you hang out these days.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 11, 2016, 01:02:34 pm
Derek,

Rather than rehash the discussion about brewing textbooks, how about a report on your journey?  You've pulled a rather dramatic 180.

What gives?

I only brought up the sources as counterpoint.

My tastes shifted towards German lagers and the next logical step was to reconsider my position on Low O2. That's pretty much it.

Sorry.  Can't let you off that easy.

Were you brewing German lagers previously?  Were the results between the two different methods that dramatic?

What about your Belgian beers?  Have you done those low O2?  Were the results similar?  You previously has a theory (IIRC) that copper might actually be necessary (or was it simply beneficial?) for Belgian beers.  But no copper is allowed over by there where you hang out these days.  Any thoughts?

I don't recall having any theories on copper in Belgians. Other than the copper grant rebuff often used being bunk.

The mini mash proposed by members at the GBF is lowest cost, zero new equipment method for determining whether you're interested.

I personally don't frequent forums much anymore. I did not brew lagers prior to my turnaround but the methods are applicable to all beers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 11, 2016, 01:07:15 pm
Maybe my recollection is off.  Never said I wasn't interested, but we'll see.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 11, 2016, 03:42:00 pm
Back on topic, slightly, Wyeast does sell brewtan, but in large sizes and only commercially.  I'm not sure if this means to any wholesaler or just to breweries.

http://wyeastlab.com/com_b_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=13

I'm thinking about asking my LHBS if they could order this from their distributor, and if they'd be willing to repackage it in smaller amounts.

In the podcast that comes out tomorrow, we interview Joe Formanek extensively about Brewtan.  He hops to have it in the retail market within the year.  I'm also working on that with some people I know.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 11, 2016, 03:44:32 pm
I'm am not saying brewtan does not work, at all. And I am more than willing to try it myself. See the difference, i am willing to find out on my own. My initial speculation is they will yield different results, but more than willing to try it for myself. Where is everyone getting it anyway?

And I'm not saying LODO doesn't work.  We all know that O2 is one of the enemies of beer.  I'm willing to try Brewtan because it's easy and inexpensive.  I'm not willing to try LODO without some objective confirmation due to the added hassle and the expense of buying new equipment.  Once I see some objective confirmation that the LODO technique is valid, then I'll try it and decide for myself. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 11, 2016, 04:05:23 pm
And I'm not saying LODO doesn't work.  We all know that O2 is one of the enemies of beer.  I'm willing to try Brewtan because it's easy and inexpensive.


Exactly. I'm an open minded brewer and at some point will try the stated lodo technique. But Brewtan is cheap and very easy to use. My biggest obstacle to trying the lodo process is far from stubbornness - it's the clearly stated "its all or nothing, doing it 100% right is the only way to notice a difference" part. A stark contrast to using Brewtan. But being a brewer who wants to make the best beer possible, I'll undoubtedly give it a shot. Can't wait for the podcast, Denny!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 11, 2016, 04:06:23 pm
Back on topic, slightly, Wyeast does sell brewtan, but in large sizes and only commercially.  I'm not sure if this means to any wholesaler or just to breweries.

http://wyeastlab.com/com_b_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=13

I'm thinking about asking my LHBS if they could order this from their distributor, and if they'd be willing to repackage it in smaller amounts.

In the podcast that comes out tomorrow, we interview Joe Formanek extensively about Brewtan.  He hops to have it in the retail market within the year.  I'm also working on that with some people I know.

Can't wait to check it out Denny!  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 11, 2016, 04:08:16 pm
My current equipment limits me from effectively trying low oxygen brewing. I currently use a cooler and a kettle. Dumping from buckets is a requirement for me. I'm not too enthused with the thought of pre-boiling either. Just seems like a wast of energy (fuel/electricity)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 11, 2016, 04:14:36 pm
Exactly. I'm an open minded brewer and at some point will try the stated lodo technique. But Brewtan is cheap and very easy to use. My biggest obstacle to trying the lodo process is far from stubbornness - it's the clearly stated "its all or nothing, doing it 100% right is the only way to notice a difference" part. A stark contrast to using Brewtan. But being a brewer who wants to make the best beer possible, I'll undoubtedly give it a shot. Can't wait for the podcast, Denny!

I have a hard time believing that there is no incremental improvement from incremental implementation.  I don't have a hard time believing it's beneficial, but all or nothing is a bit over the top.  I don't get enough time to brew to get so anal retentive about it.  I do my best, if I make a mistake I try not to make it next time.  For some, chasing perfection is maybe the fun part.  For me, that takes some of the fun out of it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 11, 2016, 04:17:21 pm
My current equipment limits me from effectively trying low oxygen brewing. I currently use a cooler and a kettle. Dumping from buckets is a requirement for me. I'm not too enthused with the thought of pre-boiling either. Just seems like a wast of energy (fuel/electricity)

I am with you here as well in thought and equipment restrictions. For now, just brewtan. I did finally tap into my first brewtan batch (helles export) that has lagered for a month. It does seem to have a smoother, more rounded malt profile that seems more integrated with the hops. But with no triangle test (and none planned), I can't make any real conclusions.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 11, 2016, 04:24:43 pm
I have a hard time believing that there is no incremental improvement from incremental implementation.  I don't have a hard time believing it's beneficial, but all or nothing is a bit over the top.  I don't get enough time to brew to get so anal retentive about it.  I do my best, if I make a mistake I try not to make it next time.  For some, chasing perfection is maybe the fun part.  For me, that takes some of the fun out of it.


I agree- it's my feeling that systematically reducing O2 as best you can has to have benefit. The whole notion of all or nothing (being hard to impossible for most of us) was just a turn off. I guess better phrased would be "I want to make the best beer possible, within reason". Not getting anal and crazy about it. For me, it still needs to be fun.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 11, 2016, 04:45:15 pm
I agree- it's my feeling that systematically reducing O2 as best you can has to have benefit. The whole notion of all or nothing (being hard to impossible for most of us) was just a turn off. I guess better phrased would be "I want to make the best beer possible, within reason". Not getting anal and crazy about it. For me, it still needs to be fun.

Exactly the way I think of it, too.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 11, 2016, 06:31:34 pm
Well, I hope you guys get what your after with Brewtan.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 11, 2016, 06:40:45 pm
Well, I hope you guys get what your after with Brewtan.


Gotta ask - are you actually Derek? You're using his avatar, but under a different name for whatever reason, and a COMPLETELY different MO. Derek was all about Trappist beers, and may have been the single biggest critic of the GBF paper here on this forum. Now we are to believe that he took a sabbatical, went into hiding and re-emerged only liking German lagers and is lodo's biggest proponent. I'm not feeling very stupid today unless you can explain better.  ;)



Edit  -  You also didn't answer my question - have you personally used Brewtan ?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 11, 2016, 06:45:37 pm
Well, I hope you guys get what your after with Brewtan.


Gotta ask - are you actually Derek? You're using his avatar, but under a different name for whatever reason, and a COMPLETELY different MO. Derek was all about Trappist beers, and may have been the single biggest critic of the GBF paper here on this forum. Now we are to believe that he took a sabbatical, went into hiding and re-emerged only liking German lagers and is lodo's biggest proponent. I'm not feeling very stupid today unless you can explain better.  ;)

Yes. And to be clear I'm not advocating anything to anybody. The material is out there.

I just thought it necessary to provide counterpoint to a few dodgy comments over the last few days. Other than that I would not have registered again.

EDIT: I don't recall you asking but since you have now: With my current setup I would have absolutely no reason to have to use it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 11, 2016, 07:28:13 pm

EDIT: I don't recall you asking but since you have now: With my current setup I would have absolutely no reason to have to use it.



In other words, no more reason to doubt or scoff than people who haven't preboiled and used SMB. This silly, manufactured 'turf war' is beyond me. We all brew beer. I plan to try (to the limits of my system) to use this method. Why wouldn't I? We don't all need to agree, but the forum to forum flame wars are tired. As is the 'my way is the only right way' crap.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 11, 2016, 07:40:33 pm

EDIT: I don't recall you asking but since you have now: With my current setup I would have absolutely no reason to have to use it.



In other words, no more reason to doubt or scoff than people who haven't preboiled and used SMB. This silly, manufactured 'turf war' is beyond me. We all brew beer. I plan to try (to the limits of my system) to use this method. Why wouldn't I? We don't all need to agree, but the forum to forum flame wars are tired. As is the 'my way is the only right way' crap.

Hey man, no ill will intended. You pressed for answers and I gave them.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 11, 2016, 07:43:35 pm

EDIT: I don't recall you asking but since you have now: With my current setup I would have absolutely no reason to have to use it.



In other words, no more reason to doubt or scoff than people who haven't preboiled and used SMB. This silly, manufactured 'turf war' is beyond me. We all brew beer. I plan to try (to the limits of my system) to use this method. Why wouldn't I? We don't all need to agree, but the forum to forum flame wars are tired. As is the 'my way is the only right way' crap.

Hey man, no ill will intended. You pressed for answers and I gave them.



Ok, Derek. No ill will at all. All good.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on October 11, 2016, 07:45:20 pm

EDIT: I don't recall you asking but since you have now: With my current setup I would have absolutely no reason to have to use it.



In other words, no more reason to doubt or scoff than people who haven't preboiled and used SMB. This silly, manufactured 'turf war' is beyond me. We all brew beer. I plan to try (to the limits of my system) to use this method. Why wouldn't I? We don't all need to agree, but the forum to forum flame wars are tired. As is the 'my way is the only right way' crap.

Hey man, no ill will intended. You pressed for answers and I gave them.
The RPIScotty account still exists. Why not use that one? and why did you erase all your old posts? Some of them were quite helpful like the summary of shaken not stirred.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 11, 2016, 07:53:03 pm
The RPIScotty account is not active.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: stpug on October 11, 2016, 08:28:51 pm
I'd love to give Brewtan B a shot - even if it's name is kinda dorky - then again, so is 'LODO' (using my best Keanu accent) - if it were more readily available.  One day, for sure.

As for low o2 brewing, I've done several batches and they were markedly different from the non-low o2 methods I used to regularly perform.  While the results were quite different, they were not favorable to the beers brewed (3 ales, 1 lager).  The lager performed and tasted fine, the ales suffered from the process.  In some regard, it was almost too much of a raw barley malt character - the malt I liked, the "raw" I didn't.  No worries though folks, I'll keep whacking away at until something changes <- that's the story of my life ;)
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 08:52:32 am
I think its time to get some facts straight..

Lodo- I absolutely HATE the acronym. Its low oxygen brewing. Low oxygen brewing is nothing new and predates Brewtan. Just because one chooses to not educate themselves on macro brewing techniques of the last 50 years doesn't make them go away. All the big names in technical brewing literature talk about oxygen from milling to packaging and its ill effects. A simple google search on that last line should net you quite the plethora of results.

Brewtan- for brewtan to work properly it needs to chelate heavy metals in low oxygen situations. They reasons you guys are seeing partial results is because of your oxygen pickup at packaging, due to improperly purged kegs, and allowing your beers to drop all yeast. So your minimal pick up at those stages, were causing the fenton reactions in those beers. Fermenting beer is basically devoid of all O2, so these reactions can't happen UNTIL YOU INTRODUCE OXYGEN. So it works, and you see a difference, however it is NOT going to make the beers pop with fresh malt because you lost that in the mash tun. Thats not a "flame" I really want you to think about that. Brewtan in the mash tun is not going to help you in regards to the fresh malt either, because you already have way too much oxygen in solution anyways.

So before I go any further, I want to stop and point out that when we released this paper the number 1 problem with it was that HSA is false and what is done on the commercial scale does not matter at home. People went out of their way to try and prove this. But then enters brewtan, and suddenly attitudes about this change as they saw results... I think it these people who were staunchly against this should man up and say they were wrong.

So let me surmise what the German IT flavor bases is. Fresh lingering malt. What we do know is that malt is a pretty neat little antioxidant itself, albeit with not as much reduction power as say meta. The problem with the malt as your sole reducer is that the sacrifice of the fresh malt flavor. The malt phenol's (fresh lingering malt, like chewing on a handful of fresh grain) can be released almost immediately at mashing temps to try and seek out that o2, once those are used up (seconds to minutes, again at mash temps), your fresh malt flavor is gone. That is a documented fact. So I hate to sound like a broken record but if this Elusive German flavor is what you seek, if you are NOT brewing like our paper indicates, it is infact wrong. There is NO scientific way you are achieving fresh malt flavors brewing with water that has not been deoxygenated, its just not possible. This is of course one of the very many proper german brewing techniques, but its quite the important one. I brewed wrong for 14 years, I will be the first to admit and its ok to admit it.

I had much more typed out but got sidetracked and don't really have the motivation anymore. 

Edit: Removed the nugget due to poor attitudes.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 12, 2016, 09:18:38 am
What's most interesting to me is that it calls out low protein/lower modification malt as being helpful. Really wondering if we might see some maltings start to produce malt that is less modified.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 12, 2016, 09:25:09 am
While looking for the source of the 'nugget' (which I did not find) I stumbled upon this paper from dem Meister himselbst (from 1986):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1986.tb04421.x/epdf
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 09:47:20 am
What's most interesting to me is that it calls out low protein/lower modification malt as being helpful. Really wondering if we might see some maltings start to produce malt that is less modified.

No, because then you spend too much time in mash tun and oxygen pick up is much more detrimental.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 09:48:01 am
While looking for the source of the 'nugget' (which I did not find) I stumbled upon this paper from dem Meister himselbst (from 1986):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1986.tb04421.x/epdf

Crazy huh!?? Who woulda thunk.


The source "nugget" is this.

https://www.vlb-berlin.org/kunze
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 12, 2016, 09:58:06 am
From a strictly experimental POV, the flaw will be in the difficulty isolating where the benefit of BTB comes in.

It won't be conclusive to say that BTB benefits you anywhere in the process pre-packaging.

So at a high level it is helpful in improving packaged beer but won't supplant process changes from dough in on through packaging.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 10:39:46 am
What's most interesting to me is that it calls out low protein/lower modification malt as being helpful. Really wondering if we might see some maltings start to produce malt that is less modified.

I really doubt it.  Commercial breweries don't want to have to mess with that if they don't have to.  That's why there's a preponderance of highly modified malt.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 12, 2016, 10:49:49 am
What's most interesting to me is that it calls out low protein/lower modification malt as being helpful. Really wondering if we might see some maltings start to produce malt that is less modified.

I really doubt it.  Commercial breweries don't want to have to mess with that if they don't have to.  That's why there's a preponderance of highly modified malt.

True, but I can't help and think that breweries are also going to want to set themselves apart from the rest as much as they can. Might not be a bad way to do it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on October 12, 2016, 10:55:26 am
Thanks for posting that nugget!!!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 12, 2016, 11:12:10 am
Good info posted. Thanks.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 12, 2016, 11:46:32 am
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 11:51:09 am

True, but I can't help and think that breweries are also going to want to set themselves apart from the rest as much as they can. Might not be a bad way to do it.

Remember, it's a business  It's as much or more about selling beer as making beer  A costlier process in terms of energy and labor makes the selling that much more difficult.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 11:51:49 am
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?

In terms of...?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 12, 2016, 11:52:41 am
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?

I doubt it's the two 9s apparently required in the post above.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 12, 2016, 11:54:43 am
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?
Pretty sure it varies and no welding supply could tell you for sure. Probably in the 98-99% range, which is far less than perfect.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 11:55:47 am
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?
Pretty sure it varies and no welding supply could tell you for sure. Probably in the 98-99% range, which is far less than perfect.

Do you have a source for that?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 12, 2016, 12:00:33 pm
I would guess that local welding supply CO2 not up to snuff according to the previous "nugget" post. Why? As a research chemist, the cost of the gases we use goes up by quite a margin each extra 9 you want to the right of the decimal. Two or three 9s is an order of magnitude (or more) costlier than "98-99%." 98-99% is likely good enough for most welding applications - I doubt they're willing to pay the premium.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 12:04:22 pm
Which is another reason you recapture your own from fermentation (spunding in one form or another, basically pure) and get the best you can for dispensing only(and consume moderately fast). All modern brewhouses will more than likely capture fermentation co2, re-condense it into liquid co2, and use it though out the brewery.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 12, 2016, 12:06:01 pm
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?
Pretty sure it varies and no welding supply could tell you for sure. Probably in the 98-99% range, which is far less than perfect.

Do you have a source for that?
I work for a auto repair/welding supply Shop and have discussed with our suppliers several times, no one seems to have any real specs. That is the best I can get out of them. I will say that using tank co2 to force carbonation a low oxygen beer will knock out all that low o2 character real fast! So enough o2 to bring a beer above 1ppm DO when force carbed.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 12:08:38 pm
Does anyone know the purity of typical welding shop CO2?
Pretty sure it varies and no welding supply could tell you for sure. Probably in the 98-99% range, which is far less than perfect.

Do you have a source for that?
I work for a auto repair/welding supply Shop and have discussed with our suppliers several times, no one seems to have any real specs. That is the best I can get out of them. I will say that using tank co2 to force carbonation a low oxygen beer will knock out all that low o2 character real fast! So enough o2 to bring a beer above 1ppm DO when force carbed.

Thats correct, and now we know from my previous post why that is... The malt phenols are antioxidants, when you use those up, you lose fresh malt flavor.  ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 12, 2016, 12:12:58 pm
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 12:13:24 pm
Which is another reason you recapture your own from fermentation (spunding in one form or another, basically pure) and get the best you can for dispensing only(and consume moderately fast). All modern brewhouses will more than likely capture fermentation co2, re-condense it into liquid co2, and use it though out the brewery.

ALL?  Not a single one I deal with regularly does that.  Some might, but as far as I can tell, more don't.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 12:15:57 pm
Which is another reason you recapture your own from fermentation (spunding in one form or another, basically pure) and get the best you can for dispensing only(and consume moderately fast). All modern brewhouses will more than likely capture fermentation co2, re-condense it into liquid co2, and use it though out the brewery.

ALL?  Not a single one I deal with regularly does that.  Some might, but as far as I can tell, more don't.

Sorry modern German Macro Brewhouses, plenty of diagrams in Kunze.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 12:16:21 pm
I work for a auto repair/welding supply Shop and have discussed with our suppliers several times, no one seems to have any real specs. That is the best I can get out of them. I will say that using tank co2 to force carbonation a low oxygen beer will knock out all that low o2 character real fast! So enough o2 to bring a beer above 1ppm DO when force carbed.

Thanks, appreciate the info.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 12:16:44 pm
Sorry modern German Macro Brewhouses, plenty of diagrams in Kunze.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 12:17:29 pm
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.

Same difference, using pure fermentation co2 to carbonate and keep DO down.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 12:18:06 pm
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 12:18:32 pm
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.

Same difference, using pure fermentation co2 to carbonate and keep DO down.

Honest question...is the fermentation CO2 pure?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 12:21:55 pm
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.

Same difference, using pure fermentation co2 to carbonate and keep DO down.

Honest question...is the fermentation CO2 pure?

As pure as it can get.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 12, 2016, 12:23:16 pm
I'm not a chemist, but...

Pure CO2 is a direct byproduct of fermentation. I know some other gaseous compounds leave the beer, (sulfur, anyone?) but I'm not aware of any reactions that would produce O2.

I'd say the overall CO2 purity in the headroom of a bottle/cask/keg would be more affected by the quality of the seal than anything on the fermentation side.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on October 12, 2016, 12:24:35 pm
Less concerned about CO2 purity here as I plan to use ascorbic acid...  'twas nice to see a cite for that!

Care to offer insight into "phenol rich malts"?  Fresh, smoked, 6 row? 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 12:26:02 pm
Less concerned about CO2 purity here as I plan to use ascorbic acid...  'twas nice to see a cite for that!

Care to offer insight into "phenol rich malts"?  Fresh, smoked, 6 row?

Dark kilned malts, Munich and the like. The malliard reactions in the malts are reductone rich.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 12:28:53 pm
Less concerned about CO2 purity here as I plan to use ascorbic acid...  'twas nice to see a cite for that!

Care to offer insight into "phenol rich malts"?  Fresh, smoked, 6 row?
I would still be vary concerned, and head the warning in the "nugget" ascorbic is not your answer. Its a band-aid that could add unnecessary problems(carbonyls).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 12, 2016, 12:46:41 pm
Which is another reason you recapture your own from fermentation (spunding in one form or another, basically pure) and get the best you can for dispensing only(and consume moderately fast). All modern brewhouses will more than likely capture fermentation co2, re-condense it into liquid co2, and use it though out the brewery.

ALL?  Not a single one I deal with regularly does that.  Some might, but as far as I can tell, more don't.
Sierra Nevada captures their CO2 and processes it for the brewery. That's what they said on the brewery tour I was on 3 years ago.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 12, 2016, 12:49:04 pm
I never tried this CO2 capture method, but someone should do it and report back.

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/CapturingCo2.htm
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 12, 2016, 12:51:21 pm
I never tried this CO2 capture method, but someone should do it and report back.

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/CapturingCo2.htm

That's the whole goal of spunding.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 12, 2016, 12:52:39 pm
I understand that.  Perhaps my humor was too subtle.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 12, 2016, 01:06:57 pm
Which is another reason you recapture your own from fermentation (spunding in one form or another, basically pure) and get the best you can for dispensing only(and consume moderately fast). All modern brewhouses will more than likely capture fermentation co2, re-condense it into liquid co2, and use it though out the brewery.

ALL?  Not a single one I deal with regularly does that.  Some might, but as far as I can tell, more don't.

The big ones do. Didn't they take you to see the unit at Sierra Nevada? The esters and alcohol that gas off need to be removed.

This looks like the Sierra Nevada recovery system. There are some specs for the O2.
http://foodandbeverage.pentair.com/~/media/websites/food-and-beverage/downloads/haffmans/co2-recovery/co2-recovery-plants_haffmans_leaflet.pdf
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 12, 2016, 01:19:31 pm
Thanks Bryan for the info shared. Tides are turning in homebrewing with respect to O2 reduction, quickly for some people, slower for others. Regardless, it's good to have info about various ingredients and approaches, to give brewers a chance to decide what they can do/want to do in their own breweries.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 12, 2016, 01:27:36 pm
Hell...... I'm coming around.  I'm mega-skeptical, but shoot.... anything is worth a try to achieve IT.  I've been wrong before.  Speaking of which, I have some shocking blind triangle results of a different type to share one of these days if I ever get a round to it.  How come writing is so easy when I'm procrastinating at work, but so difficult when I want to do other stuff after work?!

Cheers.  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 01:35:40 pm
Which is another reason you recapture your own from fermentation (spunding in one form or another, basically pure) and get the best you can for dispensing only(and consume moderately fast). All modern brewhouses will more than likely capture fermentation co2, re-condense it into liquid co2, and use it though out the brewery.

ALL?  Not a single one I deal with regularly does that.  Some might, but as far as I can tell, more don't.
Sierra Nevada captures their CO2 and processes it for the brewery. That's what they said on the brewery tour I was on 3 years ago.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 01:37:21 pm
How come writing is so easy when I'm procrastinating at work, but so difficult when I want to do other stuff after work?!


Dude, I feel your pain...I'm working on a book, 2 magazine articles and 3 reviews! 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 12, 2016, 01:39:40 pm
Which is another reason you recapture your own from fermentation (spunding in one form or another, basically pure) and get the best you can for dispensing only(and consume moderately fast). All modern brewhouses will more than likely capture fermentation co2, re-condense it into liquid co2, and use it though out the brewery.

ALL?  Not a single one I deal with regularly does that.  Some might, but as far as I can tell, more don't.
Sierra Nevada captures their CO2 and processes it for the brewery. That's what they said on the brewery tour I was on 3 years ago.
I thought you "dealt" with them in some way. But nevermind then.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 12, 2016, 01:40:19 pm
ALL?  Not a single one I deal with regularly does that.  Some might, but as far as I can tell, more don't.
Sierra Nevada captures their CO2 and processes it for the brewery. That's what they said on the brewery tour I was on 3 years ago.
[/quote]
[/quote]
I thought you "dealt" with them in some way. But nevermind then.
[/quote]

Regularly....;)  See I put plenty of qualifiers in there!
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 02:21:51 pm
Denny pulling off the "depends on what the definition of is is" defense. ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 12, 2016, 03:47:39 pm
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.

Same difference, using pure fermentation co2 to carbonate and keep DO down.



Honest question...is the fermentation CO2 pure?

As pure as it can get.

What does that even mean?  If you're saying that the gasses given off by fermentation are 100% CO2, that false.  That smell coming out of the airlock?  That'ts not CO2.

When breweries capture CO2, I'm pretty sure they also filter it.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 12, 2016, 03:58:48 pm
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.

Same difference, using pure fermentation co2 to carbonate and keep DO down.



Honest question...is the fermentation CO2 pure?

As pure as it can get.

What does that even mean?  If you're saying that the gasses given off by fermentation are 100% CO2, that false.  That smell coming out of the airlock?  That'ts not CO2.

When breweries capture CO2, I'm pretty sure they also filter it.
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 12, 2016, 04:09:47 pm
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 04:20:25 pm
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.

Same difference, using pure fermentation co2 to carbonate and keep DO down.



Honest question...is the fermentation CO2 pure?

As pure as it can get.

What does that even mean?  If you're saying that the gasses given off by fermentation are 100% CO2, that false.  That smell coming out of the airlock?  That'ts not CO2.

When breweries capture CO2, I'm pretty sure they also filter it.

Oh Narvin.

You know very well that's not what I meant.   The question was about oxygen in man made co2. So the answer pertains to that....But incase you didn't understand. The o2 content in fermentation co2 is as pure as the best man made co2 can be.... and it's free!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 12, 2016, 04:39:34 pm
This all jives with the British method of carbonating in a cask, even when bottling. Different method from spunding, but should have the same result.

Same difference, using pure fermentation co2 to carbonate and keep DO down.



Honest question...is the fermentation CO2 pure?

As pure as it can get.

What does that even mean?  If you're saying that the gasses given off by fermentation are 100% CO2, that false.  That smell coming out of the airlock?  That'ts not CO2.

When breweries capture CO2, I'm pretty sure they also filter it.

Oh Narvin.

You know very well that's not what I meant.   The question was about oxygen in man made co2. So the answer pertains to that....But incase you didn't understand. The o2 content in fermentation co2 is as pure as the best man made co2 can be.... and it's free!

Thanks for clarifying.  I really wasn't sure what you meant. My point, which I think is valid, is that there are plenty of other aromatic compounds produced during fermentation that are off gassed.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 04:44:27 pm
Of course, I don't think anyone is debating that. There are plenty of co2 "recycling" diagrams in Kunze if you care to explore it.


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Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 12, 2016, 04:46:09 pm
Of course, I don't think anyone is debating that. There are plenty of co2 "recycling" diagrams in Kunze if you care to explore it.


Well then, I question why you relate that to spunding then since they are two completely different things.

Or perhaps the extra sulfur trapped by spunding is truly what you are tasting as IT  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 04:52:55 pm
Umm? Did you hit your head today?  Because you are not making any sense.


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Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 05:07:12 pm
Umm? I don't follow, can you explain?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fixed it for you. Don't be a dick.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 12, 2016, 05:20:45 pm
Umm? Did you hit your head today?  Because you are not making any sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good one!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: techbrau on October 12, 2016, 06:02:50 pm
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=592)

This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 12, 2016, 06:22:06 pm
Tech replied with a much more thorough assessment than I could have mustered (I was typing before I read it) and I think his comments as well as Bryan's show why Brewtan alone cannot supplant Low O2 brewing should one desire to pursue those methods.

But like he said, that is not to say it isn't a useful tool to have in your arsenal if you aren't already using methods that make it unnecessary.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 12, 2016, 06:32:05 pm
Tech replied with a much more thorough assessment than I could have mustered (I was typing before I read it) and I think his comments as well as Bryan's show why Brewtan alone cannot supplant Low O2 brewing should one desire to pursue those methods.

But like he said, that is not to say it isn't a useful tool to have in your arsenal if you aren't already using methods that make it unnecessary.
I do think, however, that Brewtan B, in conjunction to low O2 brewing could be a very good thing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 12, 2016, 06:36:25 pm
I had a thread on that a while back. Read these.
https://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/
http://depa.fquim.unam.mx/amyd/archivero/ARTICULOGRUPO8_25527.pdf
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 12, 2016, 07:05:32 pm
I had a thread on that a while back. Read these.
https://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/
http://depa.fquim.unam.mx/amyd/archivero/ARTICULOGRUPO8_25527.pdf




This is something I missed the first time around:

" Even (E)-2-nonenal, a compound long suspected to be the main cause of oxidized flavour, paradoxically appears to arise by non-oxidative mechanisms in beer. This explains why staling is possible in the absence of oxygen. On the other hand, although some compounds result from oxidation reactions, it is at present not really clear which compound(s) is/are responsible for the oxidation off-flavour of beer."


 Obviously reducing O2 is a desireable goal in brewing, but clearly the whole process is not cut and dried, or completely understood. Thanks for re-posting.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 07:51:48 pm
Actually kunze speaks to this. There are compounds that you can't stop from reacting even in the absence of oxygen.  That's why even the the big boys can't make beer keep forever. However they do target 9 months for shelf stability.  Which is nothing short of amazing.


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Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 12, 2016, 08:23:34 pm
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=592)

This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by it

Uh, your "scientific paper" also said that using metabisulfite resulted in lowering the wort pH by 0.1.  This would also have a major effect on wort darkening.  It's also possible that maillard reactions are inhibited through other pathways, independent of the results you claim.

We all believe in minimizing oxygen.  However your claims are approaching snake oil at this point.  Analogies have no place in science, but they do in politics and cults.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 08:31:08 pm
Narvin, some of the claims regarding Brewtan B have as well. I'm still willing to try it, but I'm skeptical of the magic bullet approach.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 12, 2016, 08:48:27 pm
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=592)

This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by it

Uh, your "scientific paper" also said that using metabisulfite resulted in lowering the wort pH by 0.1.  This would also have a major effect on wort darkening.  It's also possible that maillard reactions are inhibited through other pathways, independent of the results you claim.

We all believe in minimizing oxygen.  However your claims are approaching snake oil at this point.  Analogies have no place in science, but they do in politics and cults.

You would just account for the pH drop in your pH estimation, i.e. Reduce your pH by the amount that corresponds to the SMB dose rate.

All the sources from the GBF paper are readily available. Myriad additional sources justifying the methods detailed within it are also available.

Analogies are useful for relating complex or abstract ideas in a way that drives the point home.

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: troybinso on October 12, 2016, 10:40:14 pm
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=592)

This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.
The image of those two glasses of wort clearly shows a difference in color. Can you elaborate on the specific differences between the process of producing each batch of wort?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 13, 2016, 03:42:15 am
Edit: Removed the nugget due to poor attitudes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianlayzellphotographs/3977042044 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianlayzellphotographs/3977042044)

Maybe we need a group hug?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 06:19:21 am
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=592)

This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.
The image of those two glasses of wort clearly shows a difference in color. Can you elaborate on the specific differences between the process of producing each batch of wort?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
One wort was made with low o2 mashing procedures (light), the other was standard homebrewing procedures(dark).
The differences at that stage would be preboiled water and smb.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 06:20:35 am
Edit: Removed the nugget due to poor attitudes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianlayzellphotographs/3977042044 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianlayzellphotographs/3977042044)

Maybe we need a group hug?
No kidding. Just when I thought everyone was going to start getting along again.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 06:22:54 am
Maybe we need a group hug?

No, this is how we have fun on the interwebs.   ;D

Nugget removed.... that's funny right there.  :D
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 06:24:29 am
Edit: Removed the nugget due to poor attitudes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianlayzellphotographs/3977042044 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianlayzellphotographs/3977042044)

Maybe we need a group hug?
No kidding. Just when I thought everyone was going to start getting along again.

Don't make a problem where one doesn't exist. There is the opportunity for some useful dialogue here, and if we start making comments like this the conversation will go south.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on October 13, 2016, 06:56:07 am
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=592)

This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.

Probably the most succinct explanation in this thread and has really helped wrapped my mind around the LO thing.  Thank you and great first post!  Let's talk about SNIP "polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols".  If I am interpreting this correctly, reductions of polyphenols would be good thing?  I am HUGE fan of polyclar and it's effect on reducing polyphenols is well understood.  RHB compliant as well.  From memory, polyclar is attracted to high weight moleculars but will have to dig to confirm.     
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: troybinso on October 13, 2016, 08:40:55 am
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=592)

This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.
The image of those two glasses of wort clearly shows a difference in color. Can you elaborate on the specific differences between the process of producing each batch of wort?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
One wort was made with low o2 mashing procedures (light), the other was standard homebrewing procedures(dark).
The differences at that stage would be preboiled water and smb.

Wow. That is a pretty significant difference. Did you purge the mash tun of oxygen? If the only difference is SMB and preboiled water then that seems like a worthwhile couple of extra steps with hardly any effort.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 13, 2016, 08:52:52 am
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=592)

This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.

I've been reading some on oxidation of foods and came across using cinnamon as an antioxidant.  I know Charlie Papaizin uses 1/2 tsp in his mash.  He has stated that he heard about this while talking to some brewers in Europe.  There was a rumor going around a while back that Budweiser experimented with it for a bit, but discontinued due to the fear of people finding out that cinnamon was in their bud light.

In researching this more, it does appear that Ground Cinnamon has a very high ORAC number.  ORAC is Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity.  The higher the number, the better.  Cinnamon is #3 in the world behind Cloves and Sumac with a score of 267,536, so it is a very potent antioxidant.

The problem I ran into seems to be there are different types on cinnamon.  The Cinnamon Verum variety is considered true cinnamon.  You wont find it in the supermarket.  That type is Cinnamon Cassia.  I am assuming the higher ORAC number is the Verum type.

Cinnamon Cassia contains a compound called Coumarin that is toxic to the liver at high concentrations.  In Europe there is a limit on it in alcoholic beverages at 10 mg/l.  However this compound has been shown to reduce enzymatic browning by polyphenol oxidase.  Here is a study abstract on Cinnamon Extract and Coumarin used to prevent browning in apple juice:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236917730_Extraction_and_Quantitation_of_Coumarin_from_Cinnamon_and_its_Effect_on_Enzymatic_Browning_in_Fresh_Apple_Juice_A_Bioinformatics_Approach_to_Illuminate_its_Anti-Browning_Activity (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236917730_Extraction_and_Quantitation_of_Coumarin_from_Cinnamon_and_its_Effect_on_Enzymatic_Browning_in_Fresh_Apple_Juice_A_Bioinformatics_Approach_to_Illuminate_its_Anti-Browning_Activity)

I've started using the Verum in my mash.  I don't know if it works, but I know the taste does not carry over to finished product.

Do you think the Cassia, or the Coumarin synthesized from it, might be useful, or at least looked into further?


Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 13, 2016, 09:03:01 am
Interesting, but perhaps not surprising, that sumac has one of the highest ORACs. This is where the active component of BrewtanB is derived from if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 13, 2016, 09:21:19 am
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 13, 2016, 09:45:25 am
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 13, 2016, 09:46:38 am
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

Not preboiling the water to deoxygenate it, renders campden basically useless(unless you use a very high quantity). It takes 5ppm meta, to dissolve 1ppm oxygen, and campden has fillers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: troybinso on October 13, 2016, 09:51:32 am
How are you keeping the water from reabsorbing oxygen as it cools to mash temp? Also how are you keeping oxygen out of the mash tun?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 13, 2016, 09:53:43 am
How are you keeping the water from reabsorbing oxygen as it cools to mash temp? Also how are you keeping oxygen out of the mash tun?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles-v2.pdf
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 09:54:03 am
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Somebody with a better chemistry background is going to have to field this one. But in my mind it's still the purists co2 we can get and if it was a major problem bottle conditioning would more detrimental to the beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 13, 2016, 09:57:15 am
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Somebody with a better chemistry background is going to have to field this one. But in my mind it's still the purists co2 we can get and if it was a major problem bottle conditioning would more detrimental to the beer.

Isn't sulfur dioxide itself an antioxidant?

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page2.htm
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 13, 2016, 09:57:53 am
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Somebody with a better chemistry background is going to have to field this one. But in my mind it's still the purists co2 we can get and if it was a major problem bottle conditioning would more detrimental to the beer.

Isn't sulfur dioxide itself an antioxidant?

Yes  ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 10:03:10 am
Something I have been wondering is if smb will act in a similar way to ascorbic acid, which I believe that when it is completely bound up it becomes an oxidizer. Any testing so far has not shown this, but I wonder.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 10:05:34 am
What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?

Heck no, not possible.

I have a bachelors in Chemical Engineering.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 13, 2016, 10:07:20 am
What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?

Heck no, not possible.

I have a bachelors in Chemical Engineering.

Yeah, I knew that, which is why I asked you. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 10:12:58 am
What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?

Heck no, not possible.

I have a bachelors in Chemical Engineering.

Yeah, I knew that, which is why I asked you.

Just stating it for benefit(?) of others. 8)

That said, I certainly don't claim to be a chemistry expert.  I happen to be a "paint guy" and I don't even understand all the chemistry of that either.  Been too many years since college.  I can however field a couple of the simplest questions.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 10:27:44 am
What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?

Heck no, not possible.

I have a bachelors in Chemical Engineering.
That's what I thought, but I will let the people that know for sure say it. More of a mechanical/ geometry type guy myself.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on October 13, 2016, 10:29:12 am
Interesting, but perhaps not surprising, that sumac has one of the highest ORACs. This is where the active component of BrewtanB is derived from if I'm not mistaken.

That is my understanding as well. 

Paranoid, thanks for bringing ORAC to my attention, now I have the explanation why plain old tannic acid from LHBS (chestnut I think) might not have the same effect as Brewtan.  Brewtan most likely has a higher ORAC. 

Do I have this right?  ORAC is NOT an O2 scavenger right?  It cannot remove O2 whereas SMB/ascorbic can. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 13, 2016, 10:34:33 am
I think that's right. SMB will react directly with dissolved oxygen in the mash/sparge water. The ORAC compounds are antioxidants in the sense that they inhibit oxidation of other molecules. They are not direct oxygen (O2) scavengers. SMB scavenges O2.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 13, 2016, 10:44:05 am
I think that's right. SMB will react directly with dissolved oxygen in the mash/sparge water. The ORAC compounds are antioxidants in the sense that they inhibit oxidation of other molecules. They are not direct oxygen (O2) scavengers. SMB scavenges O2.

Related to some research that I do, hydrazine (N2H4) would be the perfect replacement for SMB as the reaction with oxygen produces only nitrogen gas and water. Unfortunately for brewers, hydrazine oxidation requires a catalyst (typically in the form of metals not present in brewing).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 13, 2016, 11:14:03 am
Yeah...I don't think that I want to use rocket fuel in my beer...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 11:15:49 am
Hydrazine is also extremely carcinogenic.  Really really bad stuff.  We use it to deoxygenate cooling water in nuclear reactors.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 13, 2016, 12:38:46 pm

One wort was made with low o2 mashing procedures (light), the other was standard homebrewing procedures(dark).
The differences at that stage would be preboiled water and smb.

So you did not adjust acid additions to account for the extra pH drop from the smb?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 12:47:42 pm

One wort was made with low o2 mashing procedures (light), the other was standard homebrewing procedures(dark).
The differences at that stage would be preboiled water and smb.

So you did not adjust acid additions to account for the extra pH drop from the smb?

The paper specifically references targeting, with software, a pH value 0.1 higher to account for the Δ from SMB use. Although in reality it is dose specific, so hard coding it in your water software may be something worth doing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 12:47:48 pm

One wort was made with low o2 mashing procedures (light), the other was standard homebrewing procedures(dark).
The differences at that stage would be preboiled water and smb.

So you did not adjust acid additions to account for the extra pH drop from the smb?
Not my photo. I believe brew monk commented above, saying the ph was adjusted the same. I don't think .1 would that drastic effect on color anyway.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: toby on October 13, 2016, 01:10:47 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

The most interesting part about that thread is where Denny specifically states that he tried campden for its antioxidant properties for a year.  Note also that the thread was from 5 years ago.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 13, 2016, 01:14:47 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

The most interesting part about that thread is where Denny specifically states that he tried campden for its antioxidant properties for a year.  Note also that the thread was from 5 years ago.
Sorry yes. It wasn't Gary.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 01:15:39 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

The most interesting part about that thread is where Denny specifically states that he tried campden for its antioxidant properties for a year.  Note also that the thread was from 5 years ago.
But he might not have been pre-boiling or racking and stirring gently. My water goes from kettle to bucket to cooler, I have no ability to try all of the techniques the GBF recommends. Considering it's all or nothing per the members, i won't be able to try any of it until I have a three vessel system with enough volume to hold all my water at once for pre-boiling.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 01:20:21 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

The most interesting part about that thread is where Denny specifically states that he tried campden for its antioxidant properties for a year.  Note also that the thread was from 5 years ago.
But he might not have been pre-boiling or racking and stirring gently. My water goes from kettle to bucket to cooler, I have no ability to try all of the techniques the GBF recommends. Considering it's all or nothing per the members, i won't be able to try any of it until I have a three vessel system with enough volume to hold all my water at once for pre-boiling.


Do you use a cooler? Why not just pre-boil in your BK, then pump through the outlet valve to underlet your mash?

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 01:22:14 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

The most interesting part about that thread is where Denny specifically states that he tried campden for its antioxidant properties for a year.  Note also that the thread was from 5 years ago.
But he might not have been pre-boiling or racking and stirring gently. My water goes from kettle to bucket to cooler, I have no ability to try all of the techniques the GBF recommends. Considering it's all or nothing per the members, i won't be able to try any of it until I have a three vessel system with enough volume to hold all my water at once for pre-boiling.
I do it with 2 vessels  (kettle, cooler mash tun).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 01:26:11 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

The most interesting part about that thread is where Denny specifically states that he tried campden for its antioxidant properties for a year.  Note also that the thread was from 5 years ago.
But he might not have been pre-boiling or racking and stirring gently. My water goes from kettle to bucket to cooler, I have no ability to try all of the techniques the GBF recommends. Considering it's all or nothing per the members, i won't be able to try any of it until I have a three vessel system with enough volume to hold all my water at once for pre-boiling.


Do you use a cooler? Why not just pre-boil in your BK, then pump through the outlet valve to underlet your mash?
How would I handle sparge?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 01:26:54 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

The most interesting part about that thread is where Denny specifically states that he tried campden for its antioxidant properties for a year.  Note also that the thread was from 5 years ago.
But he might not have been pre-boiling or racking and stirring gently. My water goes from kettle to bucket to cooler, I have no ability to try all of the techniques the GBF recommends. Considering it's all or nothing per the members, i won't be able to try any of it until I have a three vessel system with enough volume to hold all my water at once for pre-boiling.


Do you use a cooler? Why not just pre-boil in your BK, then pump through the outlet valve to underlet your mash?
How would I handle sparge?

Don't! 😉
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 13, 2016, 01:27:31 pm
Do you use a cooler? Why not just pre-boil in your BK, then pump through the outlet valve to underlet your mash?

Couldn't you just run a hose to the bottom of the cooler?  It would be easier than pumping in through the outlet. And no pump required.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 01:28:59 pm
No sparge. It's not as bad as I was thinking before trying it and still get 68-70% efficiency
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 13, 2016, 01:29:24 pm
For any who have tried it, how likely am I to see results from just pre-boiling and mashing carefully?

Might try that if I brew tomorrow. Keep in mind, I'm not aiming for recreating a modern, low oxygen brewery. Simply an early 20th century British brewery. Pre-boiling still fits that vibe, as it could have been done for water mineral reasons. If that's not going to have an effect on oxygen levels at the end of the mash I'm not going to bother.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 01:30:27 pm
Do you use a cooler? Why not just pre-boil in your BK, then pump through the outlet valve to underlet your mash?

Couldn't you just run a hose to the bottom of the cooler?  It would be easier than pumping in through the outlet. And no pump required.
Or run the hose to the outlet either way would work. Nothing wrong with gravity
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 01:30:29 pm
No sparge all beers? Even low gravity beers that would be near 5qt/lb?

Are you purging the pump and line with bottled co2? If so, you're not worried about oxygen pickup there.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 01:32:24 pm
For any who have tried it, how likely am I to see results from just pre-boiling and mashing carefully?

Might try that if I brew tomorrow. Keep in mind, I'm not aiming for recreating a modern, low oxygen brewery. Simply an early 20th century British brewery. Pre-boiling still fits that vibe, as it could have been done for water mineral reasons. If that's not going to have an effect on oxygen levels at the end of the mash I'm not going to bother.
Can you preboil and chill with ss? Have smb?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 01:32:27 pm
Do you use a cooler? Why not just pre-boil in your BK, then pump through the outlet valve to underlet your mash?

Couldn't you just run a hose to the bottom of the cooler?  It would be easier than pumping in through the outlet. And no pump required.
Or run the hose to the outlet either way would work. Nothing wrong with gravity
Can't do gravity with my setup. I brew an 8x8 third floor balcony. No room for stuff and no where to store it.

I don't doubt the claims or results. I just question the need for it to be all or nothing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 01:32:45 pm
No sparge all beers? Even low gravity beers that would be near 5qt/lb?

Are you purging the pump and line with bottled co2? If so, you're not worried about oxygen pickup there.

You shouldn't have to exceed 3 qts/lb down to around 11 °P.

SMB will be providing active scavenging.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 01:33:51 pm
For any who have tried it, how likely am I to see results from just pre-boiling and mashing carefully?

Might try that if I brew tomorrow. Keep in mind, I'm not aiming for recreating a modern, low oxygen brewery. Simply an early 20th century British brewery. Pre-boiling still fits that vibe, as it could have been done for water mineral reasons. If that's not going to have an effect on oxygen levels at the end of the mash I'm not going to bother.
All or nothing per the diehards.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 01:35:50 pm
No sparge all beers? Even low gravity beers that would be near 5qt/lb?

Are you purging the pump and line with bottled co2? If so, you're not worried about oxygen pickup there.

You shouldn't have to exceed 3 qts/lb down to around 11 °P.

SMB will be providing active scavenging.
3% table beer at 7°?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 13, 2016, 01:36:01 pm
For any who have tried it, how likely am I to see results from just pre-boiling and mashing carefully?

Might try that if I brew tomorrow. Keep in mind, I'm not aiming for recreating a modern, low oxygen brewery. Simply an early 20th century British brewery. Pre-boiling still fits that vibe, as it could have been done for water mineral reasons. If that's not going to have an effect on oxygen levels at the end of the mash I'm not going to bother.
Can you preboil and chill with ss? Have smb?

Nope, both my immersion and plate chiller have copper in them. Honestly one of the reasons why it'd be tough for me to go full "LODO" is my reluctance to give up that plate chiller...no smb either, and not likely to get access to any in time.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 01:37:12 pm
For any who have tried it, how likely am I to see results from just pre-boiling and mashing carefully?

Might try that if I brew tomorrow. Keep in mind, I'm not aiming for recreating a modern, low oxygen brewery. Simply an early 20th century British brewery. Pre-boiling still fits that vibe, as it could have been done for water mineral reasons. If that's not going to have an effect on oxygen levels at the end of the mash I'm not going to bother.
Can you preboil and chill with ss? Have smb?

Nope, both my immersion and plate chiller have copper in them. Honestly one of the reasons why it'd be tough for me to go full "LODO" is my reluctance to give up that plate chiller...no smb either, and not likely to get access to any in time.

Use Campden.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 01:39:26 pm
No sparge all beers? Even low gravity beers that would be near 5qt/lb?

Are you purging the pump and line with bottled co2? If so, you're not worried about oxygen pickup there.

You shouldn't have to exceed 3 qts/lb down to around 11 °P.

SMB will be providing active scavenging.
3% table beer at 7°?

That may be tough. Although you could always try to balance an increase in grain with WTG, i.e. Bump up the grist to try and bring down the WTG to under 3.

Just things to entertain and to think about. All the info isn't out there.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 13, 2016, 01:40:29 pm
I don't have that either...though that's actually in my cart on morebeer. Seems my RO system is either on its way out, or never really removed chloramines. Last beer has a band-aid/plastic nastiness that I'm attributing to that.

But again, that won't be here for the weekend. I'm brewing with distilled this time around.

And again, I'm not trying to recreate a modern German brewery. Post-fermentation I'll be taking great efforts to prevent oxidation, trying to see if pre-boiling alone would do anything.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 01:41:15 pm
No sparge all beers? Even low gravity beers that would be near 5qt/lb?

Are you purging the pump and line with bottled co2? If so, you're not worried about oxygen pickup there.

You shouldn't have to exceed 3 qts/lb down to around 11 °P.

SMB will be providing active scavenging.
3% table beer at 7°?
I have no problem hitting 1050 no sparge at 68% efficiency
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 13, 2016, 01:41:25 pm
I might be mistaken but I thought pretty much every LHBS carried SMB. It's easier and cheaper to acquire than brewtan.  ::)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 13, 2016, 01:43:25 pm
My LHBS is an hour and a half away...one way.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 01:45:49 pm
No sparge all beers? Even low gravity beers that would be near 5qt/lb?

Are you purging the pump and line with bottled co2? If so, you're not worried about oxygen pickup there.

You shouldn't have to exceed 3 qts/lb down to around 11 °P.

SMB will be providing active scavenging.
3% table beer at 7°?
I have no problem hitting 1050 no sparge at 68% efficiency
What about a 1.023 beer?  I keep one in for my wife. She likes the table beers
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 01:47:06 pm
My LHBS is an hour and a half away...one way.

I'll bet any outdoorsy/camping store has Campden, if that's any closer to you.  It's commonly used to sanitize water for hikers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 01:50:50 pm
No sparge all beers? Even low gravity beers that would be near 5qt/lb?

Are you purging the pump and line with bottled co2? If so, you're not worried about oxygen pickup there.

You shouldn't have to exceed 3 qts/lb down to around 11 °P.

SMB will be providing active scavenging.
3% table beer at 7°?
I have no problem hitting 1050 no sparge at 68% efficiency
What about a 1.023 beer?  I keep one in for my wife. She likes the table beers
I don't know that I have ever made a beer that low. But there is no reason why it wouldn't work.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 01:53:17 pm
No sparge all beers? Even low gravity beers that would be near 5qt/lb?

Are you purging the pump and line with bottled co2? If so, you're not worried about oxygen pickup there.

You shouldn't have to exceed 3 qts/lb down to around 11 °P.

SMB will be providing active scavenging.
3% table beer at 7°?
I have no problem hitting 1050 no sparge at 68% efficiency
What about a 1.023 beer?  I keep one in for my wife. She likes the table beers
I don't know that I have ever made a beer that low. But there is no reason why it wouldn't work.

Well there is definitely a reason it would be feasible.

If you can't get gravity and volume to line up then you're a little screwed. You're only variables for no sparge are grain weight and WTG.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 13, 2016, 01:59:22 pm
But he might not have been pre-boiling or racking and stirring gently. My water goes from kettle to bucket to cooler, I have no ability to try all of the techniques the GBF recommends. Considering it's all or nothing per the members, i won't be able to try any of it until I have a three vessel system with enough volume to hold all my water at once for pre-boiling.

That is correct...I did nothing more than use campden.  But doesn't it seem like it should have done something if it was going to do anything?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 13, 2016, 02:00:52 pm
For any who have tried it, how likely am I to see results from just pre-boiling and mashing carefully?

Might try that if I brew tomorrow. Keep in mind, I'm not aiming for recreating a modern, low oxygen brewery. Simply an early 20th century British brewery. Pre-boiling still fits that vibe, as it could have been done for water mineral reasons. If that's not going to have an effect on oxygen levels at the end of the mash I'm not going to bother.

Everything I've heard implies it's an all or nothing thing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 13, 2016, 02:02:48 pm
I might be mistaken but I thought pretty much every LHBS carried SMB. It's easier and cheaper to acquire than brewtan.  ::)

Yes, but it appears to be only a part of the process while Brewtan is the whole thing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 02:04:13 pm
Everything I've heard implies it's an all or nothing thing.

Leave it to us Americans -- and Aussies! -- to figure out all the shortcuts that work best.  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 02:10:25 pm
I might be mistaken but I thought pretty much every LHBS carried SMB. It's easier and cheaper to acquire than brewtan.  ::)

Yes, but it appears to be only a part of the process while Brewtan is the whole thing.

Keep pushing that Brewtan!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 13, 2016, 02:12:49 pm
I might be mistaken but I thought pretty much every LHBS carried SMB. It's easier and cheaper to acquire than brewtan.  ::)

Yes, but it appears to be only a part of the process while Brewtan is the whole thing.

Keep pushing that Brewtan!

I am not "pushing" anything.  I was making a statement about the use of the various methods.  I have no reason to "push" Brewtan other than to hopefully help homebrewers make better beer.  Which is I assume the same motivation the LODO brewers have.  At least I hope so.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 02:14:19 pm
Everything I've heard implies it's an all or nothing thing.

Leave it to us Americans -- and Aussies! -- to figure out all the shortcuts that work best.  :)
It's not shortcuts.  I am a firm believer in kaizen process improvement methods. The idea is incremental changes toward improvements.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 13, 2016, 02:19:38 pm
I might be mistaken but I thought pretty much every LHBS carried SMB. It's easier and cheaper to acquire than brewtan.  ::)

Yes, but it appears to be only a part of the process while Brewtan is the whole thing.

Brewtan doesn't directly scavenge O2, correct? Then it is not "the whole thing."
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 02:21:26 pm
Everything I've heard implies it's an all or nothing thing.

Leave it to us Americans -- and Aussies! -- to figure out all the shortcuts that work best.  :)
It's not shortcuts.  I am a firm believer in kaizen process improvement methods. The idea is incremental changes toward improvements.

Semantics.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 02:21:53 pm
Brewtan has benefits outside of the Low O2 but is not in any way a substitute.

Which may not be a bad thing. It just isn't a bridge to, or replacement for Low O2.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 13, 2016, 02:26:23 pm
In going back to the polyphenol oxidase and its relationship to "IT"...

L-Cysteine is a non-essential amino acid that might be useful.  When used as a food additive it is labeled E920.  It is used in bread making.

"The results suggest that the L-cysteine is a time bound inhibitor of PPO, since its highest concentration (5 mM) gives protection up to 4h having no further effect on the rate of browning reaction in apple juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine)

This study looks at it, along with SMB, Citric Acid, and Ascorbic Acid as anti-browning agents:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions)

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 13, 2016, 02:31:49 pm
Brewtan has benefits outside of the Low O2 but is not in any way a substitute.

Which may not be a bad thing. It just isn't a bridge to, or replacement for Low O2.

You say that with utter certainty.  If both methods are producing beer with a greater depth of fresh malt flavor (IT?) and improved shelf-life/stability, they seem to be two means to the same end.  Is that not accurate?

I've neither used Brewtan nor gone to low-oxygen brewing, but it sounds to me like people are getting similar results. No?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 13, 2016, 02:36:40 pm
Brewtan doesn't directly scavenge O2, correct? Then it is not "the whole thing."

I guess I wasn't clear.  I wasn't referring to the effects, I was referring to the process.  And does it matter if it scavenges oxygen of the result is the same in terms of flavor?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 13, 2016, 02:37:19 pm
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 13, 2016, 02:37:41 pm
You say that with utter certainty.  If both methods are producing beer with a greater depth of fresh malt flavor (IT?) and improved shelf-life/stability, they seem to be two means to the same end.  Is that not accurate?

I've neither used Brewtan nor gone to low-oxygen brewing, but it sounds to me like people are getting similar results. No?

Thanks, Joe.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 13, 2016, 02:47:29 pm
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 13, 2016, 02:49:40 pm
You say that with utter certainty.  If both methods are producing beer with a greater depth of fresh malt flavor (IT?) and improved shelf-life/stability, they seem to be two means to the same end.  Is that not accurate?

I've neither used Brewtan nor gone to low-oxygen brewing, but it sounds to me like people are getting similar results. No?

Thanks, Joe.

Sure.  But to be completely fair, I don't know that the results really are the same.  I guess that's one of the reasons why you're running your experiment.  It may be that the combination of the two is really where it's at.  Or not.  These days, most of my batches get consumed quickly at parties, so shelf stability is not an issue for me.  Brewing better beer is always good, but I also don't need to be the best, which I guess puts me in the camp of if Brewtan does something to help and it's super easy, that might be enough for me.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 02:51:06 pm
That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

Ah, the classic Pareto theorum.  Cool.  You may be right.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 13, 2016, 02:53:35 pm
*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Likewise. But as a scientist, comparing the two methods and testing them should help clarify how much "coverage" brewtan provides.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on October 13, 2016, 03:00:13 pm
In going back to the polyphenol oxidase and its relationship to "IT"...

L-Cysteine is a non-essential amino acid that might be useful.  When used as a food additive it is labeled E920.  It is used in bread making.

"The results suggest that the L-cysteine is a time bound inhibitor of PPO, since its highest concentration (5 mM) gives protection up to 4h having no further effect on the rate of browning reaction in apple juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine)

This study looks at it, along with SMB, Citric Acid, and Ascorbic Acid as anti-browning agents:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions)

The force is strong with this one.  L-cysteine promotes thicker hair and is also used for, get this: preventing hangovers!  ;D
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 13, 2016, 03:10:06 pm
In going back to the polyphenol oxidase and its relationship to "IT"...

L-Cysteine is a non-essential amino acid that might be useful.  When used as a food additive it is labeled E920.  It is used in bread making.

"The results suggest that the L-cysteine is a time bound inhibitor of PPO, since its highest concentration (5 mM) gives protection up to 4h having no further effect on the rate of browning reaction in apple juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine)

This study looks at it, along with SMB, Citric Acid, and Ascorbic Acid as anti-browning agents:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions)





Hmm, appears that the two most effective were ascorbic acid and SMB. Maybe I wasn't out to lunch on ascorbic for kegging after all, as many breweries have used it. ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 13, 2016, 03:27:33 pm
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 13, 2016, 03:28:02 pm
In going back to the polyphenol oxidase and its relationship to "IT"...

L-Cysteine is a non-essential amino acid that might be useful.  When used as a food additive it is labeled E920.  It is used in bread making.

"The results suggest that the L-cysteine is a time bound inhibitor of PPO, since its highest concentration (5 mM) gives protection up to 4h having no further effect on the rate of browning reaction in apple juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine)

This study looks at it, along with SMB, Citric Acid, and Ascorbic Acid as anti-browning agents:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions)

The force is strong with this one.  L-cysteine promotes thicker hair and is also used for, get this: preventing hangovers!  ;D

It appears to be potentially useful for hangovers, but I don't think it has ben proven in humans.  The way it works in possibly preventing is interesting.  It helps metabolize acetaldehyde (aka the green apple off flavor in beer) to acetic acid (the main ingredient in vinegar) which is harmless to us, but also another off flavor caused by an infection.

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Hand of Dom on October 13, 2016, 03:52:33 pm
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Which of the LODO steps did you use?  I tried the SMB, and using yeast/DME to scavenge the oxygen for the mash/sparge water in the brew I've currently got in the FV.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 13, 2016, 04:23:49 pm
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

So you've tried Brewtan?  Any more data points for us other than the ten million percent guarantee?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 13, 2016, 04:24:36 pm
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Which of the LODO steps did you use?  I tried the SMB, and using yeast/DME to scavenge the oxygen for the mash/sparge water in the brew I've currently got in the FV.

Yeast /dextrose in morning and when I get home, smb, brewtan, cinnamon,  stainless chiller.  No spunding and I biab
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 13, 2016, 04:38:50 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

Not preboiling the water to deoxygenate it, renders campden basically useless(unless you use a very high quantity). It takes 5ppm meta, to dissolve 1ppm oxygen, and campden has fillers.

I'm still trying to reconcile this with Martin's calculations that the dose of sulfite is more than plenty to neutralize what is in the strike water.  https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24675.msg348119#msg348119

If what he says is correct, then preboiling may not be necessary BUT you'd need a larger (possibly detrimental) amount of sulfite to ensure enough is left in the mash.  Have you tried higher doses?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 13, 2016, 05:00:23 pm
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 05:33:05 pm
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?
Sulfate is probably more of a problem
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 13, 2016, 05:34:24 pm
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?
Sulfate is probably more of a problem
You think so? I don't know...I think you could just add less gypsum to your water to make up for the sulfate.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebriscoe on October 13, 2016, 05:36:04 pm
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?
Sulfate is probably more of a problem
You think so? I don't know...I think you could just add less gypsum to your water to make up for the sulfate.
If I remember right 100ppm smb could add 75ppm sulfate.
Guess it depends on how much more smb is added.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 13, 2016, 05:49:28 pm
Sulfate and sulfite are two different things, but related.  SMB is sulfite, and steals oxygen to form sulfate.

You may be right on the sodium.  I'd reduce any sodium chloride or baking soda additions if using a lot of SMB.  And, maybe we don't want to use "a lot" either.  This forms part of my skepticism of its use.  Not to mention other chemicals like Brewtan / tannic acid -- what else is it doing to flavor that we don't yet understand.

Where's Martin...
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 05:59:04 pm
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

Not preboiling the water to deoxygenate it, renders campden basically useless(unless you use a very high quantity). It takes 5ppm meta, to dissolve 1ppm oxygen, and campden has fillers.

I'm still trying to reconcile this with Martin's calculations that the dose of sulfite is more than plenty to neutralize what is in the strike water.  https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24675.msg348119#msg348119

If what he says is correct, then preboiling may not be necessary BUT you'd need a larger (possibly detrimental) amount of sulfite to ensure enough is left in the mash.  Have you tried higher doses?

If you reread the post you will see that he's CONFIRMING the dose rate in the paper as beneficial. What he's trying to get across is that he realizes that to onlookers the dose seems large and that it is true that only a portion neutralizes the oxygen in strike water. He then states that the remainder is protective, hence the extra.

Bryan and others who contributed to the paper measured, empirically (using DO meters), DO levels at various stages in the process. In addition, many still use sulfite test strips to determine the SMB consumption (not super precise but a good indicator of system performance) at various stages.

The reason you want to preboil is margin. Let's say your untreated water has 12 ppm DO. Now add 3 ppm from from dough in. Now add 2 ppm from atmospheric diffusion over the course of the mash. That's 17 ppm of DO that has contact your wort before you even get to the boil.

17*5 = 85 ppm SMB required. You've nearly used up your dose. If you consider that desired is < 1 ppm DO over the whole hot side of the process, we neglected DO introduced from pumping/transfer, boil and chilling you quickly realize starting out < 0.5 ppm DO by preboiling is advantageous and necessary.

Nobody is trying to put one past you or pull the wool over your eyes. This is all in the paper. It's simply a margin game. It's about Giving yourself the best chance at keeping DO low the whole process, not about making extra work for brewday.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 06:43:56 pm
Brewtan has benefits outside of the Low O2 but is not in any way a substitute.

Which may not be a bad thing. It just isn't a bridge to, or replacement for Low O2.

You say that with utter certainty.  If both methods are producing beer with a greater depth of fresh malt flavor (IT?) and improved shelf-life/stability, they seem to be two means to the same end.  Is that not accurate?

I've neither used Brewtan nor gone to low-oxygen brewing, but it sounds to me like people are getting similar results. No?

I think that he only way to really know would be a Low O2 beer compared against a Brewtan beer. But I don't think that theoretically, given the information on both methods, that a Brewtan beer could compete, given that it neglects the great care taken pre dough in to avoid oxygen.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 13, 2016, 07:11:12 pm
I agree. That would be a great experiment. And for what it's worth I think it's beneficial for all of us to hear from you since we know you were initially skeptical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 13, 2016, 07:33:12 pm
I agree. That would be a great experiment. And for what it's worth I think it's beneficial for all of us to hear from you since we know you were initially skeptical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am by no means an authority. Everything is in the paper but don't feel bound to it lock, stock and barrel. Use your judgement and realize that the way it's written is the sure thing. Also use the sources from the paper and don't feel afraid to go deeper into the technical resources.

 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Hand of Dom on October 14, 2016, 03:55:29 am
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Which of the LODO steps did you use?  I tried the SMB, and using yeast/DME to scavenge the oxygen for the mash/sparge water in the brew I've currently got in the FV.

Yeast /dextrose in morning and when I get home, smb, brewtan, cinnamon,  stainless chiller.  No spunding and I biab
Thanks for the info, how much cinnamon do you add, and to what volume?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 14, 2016, 05:38:53 am
Sulfate and sulfite are two different things, but related.  SMB is sulfite, and steals oxygen to form sulfate.

You may be right on the sodium.  I'd reduce any sodium chloride or baking soda additions if using a lot of SMB.  And, maybe we don't want to use "a lot" either.  This forms part of my skepticism of its use.  Not to mention other chemicals like Brewtan / tannic acid -- what else is it doing to flavor that we don't yet understand.

Where's Martin...

If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

A safe assumption is to use the parameters the paper details (0.1 pH Δ, 76 ppm SO4, 24 ppm Na) and scale them as dose rate is reduced. Hard coding this into BW or writing your own water spreadsheet would help.

EDIT: highlighted text was changed from produced to reduced.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: mabrungard on October 14, 2016, 06:16:45 am
The extra SMB provides the neutralization capacity for subsequent oxygen uptake. The art of the matter is determining how much extra SMB you need in your system to provide adequate protection. Sure, 100 ppm SMB is probably a safe starting point, but it comes with an increased cost in terms of Na and SO4 content. Some brewers on the German forum have been experimenting with lower dosage, including me.

In my opinion, modest Na content in beer does not produce a really detrimental taste effect. If you can keep that below 50 ppm, it should be OK for virtually all styles. You shouldn't taste it as salty, but it could have a sweetening effect.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: toby on October 14, 2016, 08:05:08 am
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

That's honestly my biggest concern in following both of these types of threads (brewtan and low DO).  I use tap water due to the way my system is set up (all gravity and lifting that much bottled RO is not an option).  Since my water source is a sodium bicarbonate aquifer, the water is practically bereft of other minerals, but 75-100 ppm sodium.  For dark beers, it works great, but for pale beers, raising the sodium much would likely be detrimental.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 14, 2016, 08:07:22 am
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

That's honestly my biggest concern in following both of these types of threads (brewtan and low DO).  I use tap water due to the way my system is set up (all gravity and lifting that much bottled RO is not an option).  Since my water source is a sodium bicarbonate aquifer, the water is practically bereft of other minerals, but 75-100 ppm sodium.  For dark beers, it works great, but for pale beers, raising the sodium much would likely be detrimental.

The full dose rate (100 ppm) would add an additional 24 ppm Na. It would of course be reduced as you reduce the dose rate.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dmtaylor on October 14, 2016, 09:22:25 am
If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

That is a helpful reference point.  Thank you.  I'm sure I can cut out oxygen in minor ways.  Just don't know how effective my methods would be without trying real hard, since I'm cheap 'n' lazy.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 09:43:51 am
If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

  Just don't know how effective my methods would be without trying real hard, since I'm cheap 'n' lazy.

Well unfortunately, zee Germans are neither of those, so creating these beers with that mentality may be fruitless. Think about it this way... If this was either cheap, easy, both, or any other variation of the present plethora of methods. This conversation would not be taking place. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 14, 2016, 09:51:17 am
Well unfortunately, zee Germans are neither of those, so creating these beers with that mentality may be fruitless. Think about it this way... If this was either cheap, easy, both, or any other variation of the present plethora of methods. This conversation would not be taking place. 


Bryan, slight derail - do you have trouble with getting your water profiles right in low O2 brewing?  I know the paper suggests not adding more sulfate and relying on CaCl2 for Ca content. Makes me think of German Pils where I personally prefer a dry finish that accentuates the hop profile. Is the sulfate presence from the SMB dose sufficient there? Is it too assertive in styles where only a low-moderate sulfate presence is desired?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 09:55:10 am
If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

  Just don't know how effective my methods would be without trying real hard, since I'm cheap 'n' lazy.

Well unfortunately, zee Germans are neither of those, so creating these beers with that mentality may be fruitless. Think about it this way... If this was either cheap, easy, both, or any other variation of the present plethora of methods. This conversation would not be taking place. 


If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

  Just don't know how effective my methods would be without trying real hard, since I'm cheap 'n' lazy.

Well unfortunately, zee Germans are neither of those, so creating these beers with that mentality may be fruitless. Think about it this way... If this was either cheap, easy, both, or any other variation of the present plethora of methods. This conversation would not be taking place. 


Bryan, slight derail - do you have trouble with getting your water profiles right in low O2 brewing?  I know the paper suggests not adding more sulfate and relying on CaCl2 for Ca content. Makes me think of German Pils where I personally prefer a dry finish that accentuates the hop profile. Is the sulfate presence from the SMB dose sufficient there? Is it too assertive in styles where only a low-moderate sulfate presence is desired?

Much like the breweries, I have one water profile I use regardless of style. Its my "house water". Its roughly 44ca, 3mg, 35na, 35so4, 80 cl. I only add CACL to my water(RO). I use proper attenuation to accent hops, not salts.


Edit: I only consume 10ppm of nameta, in process.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on October 14, 2016, 10:05:46 am
It appears to be potentially useful for hangovers, but I don't think it has ben proven in humans.  The way it works in possibly preventing is interesting.  It helps metabolize acetaldehyde (aka the green apple off flavor in beer) to acetic acid (the main ingredient in vinegar) which is harmless to us, but also another off flavor caused by an infection.

I said that mainly for mostly comedic reasons.  The use in bread making has blown my mind.  Easy enough to find too.  Are knowledgeable enough to work a dose for brewing?  Looks like the study used a molar rate. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 14, 2016, 10:08:32 am
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

Have you done a side by side blind tasting?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 14, 2016, 10:09:33 am
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

I have the same thought.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 10:10:42 am
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

Have you done a side by side blind tasting?

Yup.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 14, 2016, 10:11:39 am
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

I have the same thought.

Why would you need anything higher than 100 ppm? That's the question to ask yourself. 24 ppm of Na is added for 100 ppm/l dose rate of SMB. It only decreases as you descrease your dose rate and tighten up your system.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 14, 2016, 10:12:22 am
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

Have you done a side by side blind tasting?

Yup.

Just you? 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 10:16:21 am
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

I have the same thought.

Why would you need anything higher than 100 ppm? That's the question to ask yourself. 24 ppm of Na is added for 100 ppm/l dose rate of SMB. It only decreases as you descrease your dose rate and tighten up your system.

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 10:16:41 am
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

Have you done a side by side blind tasting?

Yup.

Just you?

Nope.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 14, 2016, 10:19:23 am
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

Have you done a side by side blind tasting?

Yup.

Just you?

Nope.

Why so secretive?  Why not publish the results of the testing and let everyone benefit?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 10:22:19 am
I learned a long time ago, you guys can't be told something, you have to come to it on your own.  ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 10:46:38 am

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.

Why?  Does it require the dose to be higher, or does it just not work?

If it doesn't work, period, I'd begin to question whether the meta is doing anything at all.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 10:47:22 am
I learned a long time ago, you guys can't be told something, you have to come to it on your own.  ;)

I think the real reason is that you don't like people to ask questions.  Which is fine.  But that's not science.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 14, 2016, 10:58:23 am

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.

Why?  Does it require the dose to be higher, or does it just not work?

If it doesn't work, period, I'd begin to question whether the meta is doing anything at all.

The most obvious answer is it's just a waste. Why, if you can get </= 0.5 ppm DO from preboiling and chilling and then protection against 20 ppm DO from 100 ppm dose of SMB, would you waste active protection for up to 60 ppm DO by using SMB to remove oxygen from your tap water?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 14, 2016, 10:59:59 am
I learned a long time ago, you guys can't be told something, you have to come to it on your own.  ;)

I think the real reason is that you don't like people to ask questions.  Which is fine.  But that's not science.

The forum is peppered with candid answers that have appeared over the last 48 hrs.

Citizen science has instilled a false sense of the information that matters here and on other forums. Someone with a healthy dose of skepticism might be a prime candidate for a mini-mash:

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=301

Subjectivity can be a powerful first tool in establishing someones empirical excursions on a topic.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 14, 2016, 11:00:23 am

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.

Why?  Does it require the dose to be higher, or does it just not work?

If it doesn't work, period, I'd begin to question whether the meta is doing anything at all.
I think the reason is because tap water has higher ion content and you don't want to add more sodium and sulfate if you don't know the exact contents of your water. And adding it would throw everything out of balance if you have high ion contents of sodium or sulfate already. Which is why RO is recommended, it's a perfect starting point. But we knew that already!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 11:03:59 am

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.

Why?  Does it require the dose to be higher, or does it just not work?

If it doesn't work, period, I'd begin to question whether the meta is doing anything at all.

Of course it works...It takes 5ppm meta to 1 ppm oxygen. SO if your tap water is 10ppm, you can start to see the implication with your dosing requirements JUST for the tap water, not including your requirements for your brewing process..
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 11:04:31 am
I learned a long time ago, you guys can't be told something, you have to come to it on your own.  ;)

I think the real reason is that you don't like people to ask questions.  Which is fine.  But that's not science.

I mind not when the questions are worthy, or when the information isn't handily available.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 14, 2016, 11:11:53 am
I learned a long time ago, you guys can't be told something, you have to come to it on your own.  ;)

I think the real reason is that you don't like people to ask questions.  Which is fine.  But that's not science.

THIS^^^^
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 14, 2016, 11:12:21 am
I learned a long time ago, you guys can't be told something, you have to come to it on your own.  ;)

What if Kunze had that same arrogant attitude?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 11:15:39 am
I learned a long time ago, you guys can't be told something, you have to come to it on your own.  ;)

What if Kunze had that same arrogant attitude?

Yawn.... So we are doing this again?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: dilluh98 on October 14, 2016, 11:18:28 am

Citizen science has instilled a false sense of the information that matters here and on other forums. Someone with a healthy dose of skepticism might be a prime candidate for a mini-mash:

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=301

Subjectivity can be a powerful first tool in establishing someones empirical excursions on a topic.

That actually looks like a really fun (and highly informative) experiment. Should be pretty easy to put together, too.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 11:35:57 am

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.

Why?  Does it require the dose to be higher, or does it just not work?

If it doesn't work, period, I'd begin to question whether the meta is doing anything at all.

The most obvious answer is it's just a waste. Why, if you can get </= 0.5 ppm DO from preboiling and chilling and then protection against 20 ppm DO from 100 ppm dose of SMB, would you waste active protection for up to 60 ppm DO by using SMB to remove oxygen from your tap water?

Because preboiling and chilling 18 gallons of water is a bigger waste  :)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 11:36:48 am

Citizen science has instilled a false sense of the information that matters here and on other forums. Someone with a healthy dose of skepticism might be a prime candidate for a mini-mash:

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=301

Subjectivity can be a powerful first tool in establishing someones empirical excursions on a topic.

That actually looks like a really fun (and highly informative) experiment. Should be pretty easy to put together, too.

I do plan to do some side by sides.  I have to get some Brewtan B first.

I don't need to know the details of your test but it wouldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 14, 2016, 11:41:01 am
Ultimately, the demands for, and emphasis placed on citizen science in this case are a bit distracting. Sure, the argument can be made that the results people are experiencing using Low O2 methods are subjective, but the beauty of it is that the mini-mash requires minimal equipment outlay. In fact, you very likely already have all the required equipment.

The difference between Regular and Low O2 wort is profound. That is my subjective opinion, based on tasting the control and variable in the experiment. Not a little different. Very different.

The mini-mash is a springboard to more detailed analysis should you choose, but it has to start somewhere. You may find, like I did, that my previous "apples to apple" and "apples to oranges" argument applies here.

And remember, nothing in the mini mash procedure precludes the simultaneous testing of Brewtan in the wort either.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 11:42:38 am

Citizen science has instilled a false sense of the information that matters here and on other forums. Someone with a healthy dose of skepticism might be a prime candidate for a mini-mash:

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=301

Subjectivity can be a powerful first tool in establishing someones empirical excursions on a topic.

That actually looks like a really fun (and highly informative) experiment. Should be pretty easy to put together, too.

I'm skeptical of a mini mash for testing oxidation because you're going to get significantly more oxidation at that scale anyway, just as homebrewer batch sizes get more oxidation than a large batch.  But I'd be interested in trying this with Brewtan vs meta, making sure to adjust for things like pH and sodium/sulfate level.

But really, a full batch is the way to go.  I just need time to do it (and some brewtan, of course).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 14, 2016, 11:44:08 am

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.


Why?  Does it require the dose to be higher, or does it just not work?

If it doesn't work, period, I'd begin to question whether the meta is doing anything at all.

The most obvious answer is it's just a waste. Why, if you can get </= 0.5 ppm DO from preboiling and chilling and then protection against 20 ppm DO from 100 ppm dose of SMB, would you waste active protection for up to 60 ppm DO by using SMB to remove oxygen from your tap water?

Because preboiling and chilling 18 gallons of water is a bigger waste  :)

You already have to take it to strike temperature so the additional energy is in taking it from say 160 F to a boil and holding it for a few minutes.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 11:47:04 am
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


 ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 11:48:18 am

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.


Why?  Does it require the dose to be higher, or does it just not work?

If it doesn't work, period, I'd begin to question whether the meta is doing anything at all.

The most obvious answer is it's just a waste. Why, if you can get </= 0.5 ppm DO from preboiling and chilling and then protection against 20 ppm DO from 100 ppm dose of SMB, would you waste active protection for up to 60 ppm DO by using SMB to remove oxygen from your tap water?

Because preboiling and chilling 18 gallons of water is a bigger waste  :)

You already have to take it to strike temperature so the additional energy is in taking it from say 160 F to a boil and holding it for a few minutes.

My water starts at 80 in the summer. Plus there's the latent heat of vaporization.

Quote
The molecules in liquid water are held together by relatively strong hydrogen bonds, and its enthalpy of vaporization, 40.65 kJ/mol, is more than five times the energy required to heat the same quantity of water from 0 °C to 100 °C (cp = 75.3 J K−1 mol−1).

Energy is obviously an issue but I'm more interested in time.

 If I'm taking a shortcut like using SMB (which is not typical for any German brewer, let's be honest), I might as well go all the way.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on October 14, 2016, 11:49:01 am
And remember, nothing in the mini mash procedure precludes the simultaneous testing of Brewtan in the wort either.

Beat me to it!  Mind if I ask your opinion about LODO impact on hop signature/flavor/aroma?   
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 11:49:18 am
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


 ;)

Thanks.  I don't see anything about Brewtan here though.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 14, 2016, 11:50:42 am
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


 ;)

Thanks.  I don't see anything about Brewtan here though.

It wasn't in regards to brewtan, it was in regards to you not wanting to preboil your water.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 11:58:26 am
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


 ;)

Thanks.  I don't see anything about Brewtan here though.

It wasn't in regards to brewtan, it was in regards to you not wanting to preboil your water.

Got it.  I see I'm not the first person to want to take a shortcut!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 11:59:36 am
Off topic, but you have to be a homebrewer to see this picture and not immediately think something nefarious is going on:

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=382)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 14, 2016, 12:12:27 pm
Off topic, but you have to be a homebrewer to see this picture and not immediately think something nefarious is going on:

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=382)


:)   And I'll bet more brewers around here have that scale than any other one. I like mine.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: yso191 on October 14, 2016, 12:49:11 pm
I have not read the whole thread so if this is a repeat, just ignore or delete.

I found the place in Australia that sells Brewtan B: http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 14, 2016, 12:58:59 pm
Off topic, but you have to be a homebrewer to see this picture and not immediately think something nefarious is going on:

(http://forum.germanbrewing.net/download/file.php?id=382)


:)   And I'll bet more brewers around here have that scale than any other one. I like mine.
If one is really serious, it's triple beam balance or nothing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 14, 2016, 01:07:34 pm
I use a reloading scale that weighs in grains.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 14, 2016, 01:59:38 pm
I have not read the whole thread so if this is a repeat, just ignore or delete.

I found the place in Australia that sells Brewtan B: http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b

Yep, this has been included in the thread. Not bad to repeat it though I suppose for anyone looking for brewtan B.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: yso191 on October 14, 2016, 02:06:48 pm
I use a reloading scale that weighs in grains.

Denny is a gun guy?  I'm surprised!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 14, 2016, 02:17:07 pm
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Which of the LODO steps did you use?  I tried the SMB, and using yeast/DME to scavenge the oxygen for the mash/sparge water in the brew I've currently got in the FV.

Yeast /dextrose in morning and when I get home, smb, brewtan, cinnamon,  stainless chiller.  No spunding and I biab
Thanks for the info, how much cinnamon do you add, and to what volume?

Here is all my additions.  Salts and minerals not listed as they change batch to batch.  I do 1.75 and 3.25 gal batches.

(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=373327&stc=1&d=1476285855)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: denny on October 14, 2016, 03:01:52 pm
I use a reloading scale that weighs in grains.

Denny is a gun guy?  I'm surprised!

No, I bought it 40 years ago for other purposes.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Hand of Dom on October 14, 2016, 03:57:11 pm
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


 ;)

Thanks.  I don't see anything about Brewtan here though.

It wasn't in regards to brewtan, it was in regards to you not wanting to preboil your water.

Got it.  I see I'm not the first person to want to take a shortcut!

You might find this interesting.  I followed this approach instead of preboiling on my last batch.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 14, 2016, 06:30:00 pm
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


 ;)

Thanks.  I don't see anything about Brewtan here though.

It wasn't in regards to brewtan, it was in regards to you not wanting to preboil your water.

Got it.  I see I'm not the first person to want to take a shortcut!

You might find this interesting.  I followed this approach instead of preboiling on my last batch.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

I did that for one beer I did. Still need a DO meter (maybe), and a SS Chiller. Need to pull the trigger on those.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 14, 2016, 06:39:14 pm
...Still need a DO meter (maybe)...

A pack of sulfite test strips may be an economic way to gauge your consumption.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 14, 2016, 07:04:46 pm

You might find this interesting.  I followed this approach instead of preboiling on my last batch.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

Full disclosure, my newest fest bier I did preboil, no sparge, and use both smb in the strike water and polyclar in the whirlpool.  I'm open to anything, but I'm coming at it from a slightly different angle.  I love my beers, but would like to reduce lagering time.  I find that gelatin is not the same as aging.  I blame the polyphenol Boogeyman.

I still have a copper pick up tube.  I'm convinced that it's essential for classic Belgian styles.  But I have seen improvements in conditioning time for this beer.
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 15, 2016, 06:55:17 am
Here is all my additions.  Salts and minerals not listed as they change batch to batch.  I do 1.75 and 3.25 gal batches.

(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=373327&stc=1&d=1476285855)

Your SMB doses look to be off high, unless you didn't calculate off your base dose.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 15, 2016, 08:26:15 am
Here is all my additions.  Salts and minerals not listed as they change batch to batch.  I do 1.75 and 3.25 gal batches.

(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=373327&stc=1&d=1476285855)

Your SMB doses look to be off high, unless you didn't calculate off your base dose.

I do biab so my dose assumptions could be wrong.

My 3.25 gal batches use 4.5 gallons of water for full mash. That's about 17 liters.  At 60 mg/l that's 1020 mg or 1.02 grams.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 15, 2016, 09:21:30 am
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


 ;)

Thanks.  I don't see anything about Brewtan here though.

It wasn't in regards to brewtan, it was in regards to you not wanting to preboil your water.

Got it.  I see I'm not the first person to want to take a shortcut!

You might find this interesting.  I followed this approach instead of preboiling on my last batch.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

This I find interesting. How long did you let the yeast work for in your water prior to heating it up to strike temp?
And did you make a separate "starter" with the yeast and DME prior to adding it to the strike water or just mix it right in with the strike water itself?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 15, 2016, 09:58:58 am
Here is all my additions.  Salts and minerals not listed as they change batch to batch.  I do 1.75 and 3.25 gal batches.

(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=373327&stc=1&d=1476285855)

Your SMB doses look to be off high, unless you didn't calculate off your base dose.

I do biab so my dose assumptions could be wrong.

My 3.25 gal batches use 4.5 gallons of water for full mash. That's about 17 liters.  At 60 mg/l that's 1020 mg or 1.02 grams.

Your headings confused me. I thought those were your strike volumes.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Hand of Dom on October 15, 2016, 10:07:08 am
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


 ;)

Thanks.  I don't see anything about Brewtan here though.

It wasn't in regards to brewtan, it was in regards to you not wanting to preboil your water.

Got it.  I see I'm not the first person to want to take a shortcut!

You might find this interesting.  I followed this approach instead of preboiling on my last batch.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

This I find interesting. How long did you let the yeast work for in your water prior to heating it up to strike temp?
And did you make a separate "starter" with the yeast and DME prior to adding it to the strike water or just mix it right in with the strike water itself?
I added directly to my water using bakers yeast. I added the night before I brewed. Was probably in there for eleven hours before heating


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 15, 2016, 12:06:33 pm
Here is all my additions.  Salts and minerals not listed as they change batch to batch.  I do 1.75 and 3.25 gal batches.

(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=373327&stc=1&d=1476285855)

Your SMB doses look to be off high, unless you didn't calculate off your base dose.

I do biab so my dose assumptions could be wrong.

My 3.25 gal batches use 4.5 gallons of water for full mash. That's about 17 liters.  At 60 mg/l that's 1020 mg or 1.02 grams.

Your headings confused me. I thought those were your strike volumes.

Sorry about that.

Btw, does that mean I've been saying batch sizes wrong forever?  I've always said my batch sizes were what ended up in the fermenter or keg.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 15, 2016, 12:39:46 pm
Btw, does that mean I've been saying batch sizes wrong forever?  I've always said my batch sizes were what ended up in the fermenter or keg.

Batch size can mean different things to different people. I typically use the terms Fermentor Volume and Packaged Volume. This way you can plan for your Packaged Volume to be your Fermentor Volume minus any Fermentor Loss.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 15, 2016, 03:06:27 pm
Here is all my additions.  Salts and minerals not listed as they change batch to batch.  I do 1.75 and 3.25 gal batches.

(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=373327&stc=1&d=1476285855)

Your SMB doses look to be off high, unless you didn't calculate off your base dose.

I do biab so my dose assumptions could be wrong.

My 3.25 gal batches use 4.5 gallons of water for full mash. That's about 17 liters.  At 60 mg/l that's 1020 mg or 1.02 grams.

Your headings confused me. I thought those were your strike volumes.

Sorry about that.

Btw, does that mean I've been saying batch sizes wrong forever?  I've always said my batch sizes were what ended up in the fermenter or keg.

Yes, batch size is what goes into fermenter, at least for most people.

One thing I don't understand in your table: your base dose is the same for the two yeast additions, yet the 2nd one is only one fourth of the first????
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ParanoidAndroid10 on October 15, 2016, 05:56:47 pm
Here is all my additions.  Salts and minerals not listed as they change batch to batch.  I do 1.75 and 3.25 gal batches.

(http://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=373327&stc=1&d=1476285855)

Your SMB doses look to be off high, unless you didn't calculate off your base dose.

I do biab so my dose assumptions could be wrong.

My 3.25 gal batches use 4.5 gallons of water for full mash. That's about 17 liters.  At 60 mg/l that's 1020 mg or 1.02 grams.

Your headings confused me. I thought those were your strike volumes.

Sorry about that.

Btw, does that mean I've been saying batch sizes wrong forever?  I've always said my batch sizes were what ended up in the fermenter or keg.

Yes, batch size is what goes into fermenter, at least for most people.

One thing I don't understand in your table: your base dose is the same for the two yeast additions, yet the 2nd one is only one fourth of the first????

I need to correct the second dose.  The yeast and dextrose are correct for the first dose.  The second dose is just a little extra to mop up any residual o2 since it sits all day.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on October 16, 2016, 09:30:18 am
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&p=5787&sid=a5bc1adb29d7b791fc7e6e5320f7eb38#p5787
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 16, 2016, 10:56:08 am
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&p=5787&sid=a5bc1adb29d7b791fc7e6e5320f7eb38#p5787

Thanks for sharing.

I am by no means knocking the lodo/smb process as I intend to try it for myself once I get a ss chiller, and a way to underlet my mash.
But, I did notice that the brewer in the post did NOT follow Joe's recommendations on the interview for BB dosage rates.
Joe recommended 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons of mash water AND a 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons of sparge water (this was not done in the study). This of course, is proportional to your mash water and sparge water volumes.
Joe also recommended 1/2 tsp in a wort slurry at 15-16 min. left in the boil kettle for a 5 gallon batch. The brewer here only added 1/4 tsp.
Now, I did not see mention of intended batch size in the post (maybe I missed it somewhere) which may be why different amounts were added.

The clarity of the wort is pretty striking between the SMB and BB batches though, that's for sure.
Once again, thanks for sharing.

Cheers! 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narcout on October 16, 2016, 11:23:17 am
The mini mash proposed by members at the GBF is lowest cost, zero new equipment method for determining whether you're interested.

I was hoping the mini mash experiment would be useful, but it didn't really work for me. 

I think I need to brew a full low oxygen batch to completion to evaluate.  At this point, I have everything I need except a pipe cutter to shorten the gas tubes.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 16, 2016, 12:46:27 pm
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&p=5787&sid=a5bc1adb29d7b791fc7e6e5320f7eb38#p5787

What was the kettle pH of the two batches?  Did you use acid to adjust for the lowered pH of the smb?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 17, 2016, 10:50:09 am
Gang:  Yesterday I brewed my 15th batch with brewtan.  The other things I did along with the brewtan were to condition my malt and also use an SS chiller as opposed to the copper one I had been using.  Some of these batches had brewtan in the strike water and in the boil.  I now see that Joe F. suggests some in the sparge water as well so I'm using about 1/8th tsp in the sparge water.  The recipes I'm making are one that are in a constant rotation here... helles, pilsner, pale ales, festbiers, dark lagers, altbier (this is actually one I hadn't made in awhile) and some others.  These are beers I'm very familiar with and I feel like I'm making the best beer I have ever made.  I have mentioned this on the GBF, my main board and here on AHA.  I'm not deep into the science of brewing.  When I see detailed information about what happens in the mash or when yeast is pitched, my eyes glaze over and I admit that may be very different from other people who brew.  Many, many thanks to those who experiment and research so that the rest of us can benefit in the form of better beer.  I have heard a number of people say that they don't think that brewtan is doing anything.  I have heard from more people who think that something positive is happening to their beer as a result of using brewtan and that they plan to keep using it.  I don't know the specifics on what it does but it truly seems to be making my beers smoother, softer, silkier and clearer.  It's possible that after all this talk about "IT"... I wasn't actually looking for it.  Maybe I was looking for what brewtan is doing.  I have better malt depth with it and I have crisper, cleaner-tasting hop character as well.  There seems to be a finer character to the beer that was not there before.  I plan to keep using it as long as I can get my hands on it.  Cheers Beerheads.

EDIT:  I should also add that I have heard every cautionary tale regarding "confirmation bias" with regard to brewtan.  If what I'm experiencing is confirmation bias, it sure is delicious.  :D
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 12:46:06 pm


EDIT:  I should also add that I have heard every cautionary tale regarding "confirmation bias" with regard to brewtan.  If what I'm experiencing is confirmation bias, it sure is delicious.  :D

Hey you stole my line...

No but seriously, as I stated before you guys should be seeing a difference in the finished products from brewtan, due to the way you package(again not a knock). You are picking up small amounts of DO, and the brewtan is stopping those fenton reactions taking place in your packaging vessels. However brewtan is not, nor will ever be a substitution for low oxygen brewing practices. I just want to make that clear.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 17, 2016, 02:44:33 pm


EDIT:  I should also add that I have heard every cautionary tale regarding "confirmation bias" with regard to brewtan.  If what I'm experiencing is confirmation bias, it sure is delicious.  :D

Hey you stole my line...

No but seriously, as I stated before you guys should be seeing a difference in the finished products from brewtan, due to the way you package(again not a knock). You are picking up small amounts of DO, and the brewtan is stopping those fenton reactions taking place in your packaging vessels. However brewtan is not, nor will ever be a substitution for low oxygen brewing practices. I just want to make that clear.

I think the good news is that there is this low-O2 information out there for brewers to try especially if they're searching for ways to make their beer better in specific ways.  Since I started in 1999, I have made the occasional great beer, a lot of good beer and sometimes not-so-great beer.  I have been looking for ways to make my beer smoother, cleaner-tasting and more drinkable.  I played with distilled water, water composition, pH control, better ingredients, etc. but occasionally still got some harsh, biting character. All that time I was looking for answers to these issues and I have to say... I'm not looking for answers anymore.  That doesn't mean I'm not open-minded about improving my beer but for the first time in a long time I can just brew beer with the confidence that it's going to come out great.  Maybe what I have been looking for all along was an answer to fenton reactions that were occurring in my kegs as you mention.  Between the easier steps of the low-O2 design (conditioning the malt, using an SS chiller, increasing my mash volume and lowering my sparge volume, purging all vessels with CO2, etc) plus the brewtan, I can't say enough about how good my beer has been coming out.  I make a lot of softer, delicate & more finesse beers like pils and helles and they have been stellar since I started using brewtan.  Absolutely stellar and the clarity is fantastic too.   I give thanks and recognition to all of the brewers out there who graciously share information so that the rest of us can benefit from better beer.  Below... a shot of a pilsner currently on tap...

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2djtibr.jpg)

Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebrews on October 17, 2016, 04:20:46 pm
Looks nice and sounds good.  Have you tried using brewtan B without doing the other LODO techniques?  If so, what kind of results did you see?  I would have a hard time converting my system to do LODO, so I am interested if the brewtan gives you a notable change all by itself.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 17, 2016, 05:28:30 pm
Looks nice and sounds good.  Have you tried using brewtan B without doing the other LODO techniques?  If so, what kind of results did you see?  I would have a hard time converting my system to do LODO, so I am interested if the brewtan gives you a notable change all by itself.
I admit that I did everything at the same time.  Not very scientific, I know.  I thought about all of these steps leading to better beer and that they could not, in any way, result in bad beer so I did it all at once.  But my guess is that brewtan had the largest impact on the improvement.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 17, 2016, 05:28:37 pm
Looks nice and sounds good.  Have you tried using brewtan B without doing the other LODO techniques?  If so, what kind of results did you see?  I would have a hard time converting my system to do LODO, so I am interested if the brewtan gives you a notable change all by itself.

What kind of system do you have? You're likely short changing yourself. Many have converted with 1 cooler, 1 BK setups. You'd likely have to acquire less equipment than you think.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebrews on October 17, 2016, 05:41:45 pm
I have a 3 tier system with 2 coolers and a boil kettle with a boilcoil heater in it.  I heat water and then pump it into the mash tun or the holding tank cooler (sparge water).  I use a whirlpool immersion chiller to chill.

So, something I can't square is how to cool the wort quickly.  In my current setup I use a pump to pump it in a whirlpool while the chiller runs, knocking the wort down from 212 to 65 in about 10 minutes.

After that, I put it in a fridge to chill down to pitch temp (for lagers, 8C) or I just aerate and pitch if it is an ale.  The chilling to lager temps can take 5 hours or so.   I'm currently fermenting in BigMouth Bubblers, and I siphon into purged kegs when they are done.  I usually pitch a bit of active yeast into the keg to scavenge up oxygen that got in there during the transfer and carbonate it a bit.

So, I can manage oxygen pretty well enough on the cold side (nobody calls out oxidation in my beers), but on the hot side I have a hard time seeing how I could get there.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 17, 2016, 05:42:16 pm


EDIT:  I should also add that I have heard every cautionary tale regarding "confirmation bias" with regard to brewtan.  If what I'm experiencing is confirmation bias, it sure is delicious.  :D

Hey you stole my line...

No but seriously, as I stated before you guys should be seeing a difference in the finished products from brewtan, due to the way you package(again not a knock). You are picking up small amounts of DO, and the brewtan is stopping those fenton reactions taking place in your packaging vessels. However brewtan is not, nor will ever be a substitution for low oxygen brewing practices. I just want to make that clear.

I think the good news is that there is this low-O2 information out there for brewers to try especially if they're searching for ways to make their beer better in specific ways.  Since I started in 1999, I have made the occasional great beer, a lot of good beer and sometimes not-so-great beer.  I have been looking for ways to make my beer smoother, cleaner-tasting and more drinkable.  I played with distilled water, water composition, pH control, better ingredients, etc. but occasionally still got some harsh, biting character. All that time I was looking for answers to these issues and I have to say... I'm not looking for answers anymore.  That doesn't mean I'm not open-minded about improving my beer but for the first time in a long time I can just brew beer with the confidence that it's going to come out great.  Maybe what I have been looking for all along was an answer to fenton reactions that were occurring in my kegs as you mention.  Between the easier steps of the low-O2 design (conditioning the malt, using an SS chiller, increasing my mash volume and lowering my sparge volume, purging all vessels with CO2, etc) plus the brewtan, I can't say enough about how good my beer has been coming out.  I make a lot of softer, delicate & more finesse beers like pils and helles and they have been stellar since I started using brewtan.  Absolutely stellar and the clarity is fantastic too.   I give thanks and recognition to all of the brewers out there who graciously share information so that the rest of us can benefit from better beer.  Below... a shot of a pilsner currently on tap...

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2djtibr.jpg)

Well said, and beautiful beer by the way. As I have said before, I wish I lived closer to some of you so we could sample each other's beers.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 17, 2016, 05:43:58 pm
so I am interested if the brewtan gives you a notable change all by itself.


I am fairly convinced it does. I tried it a few times while changing no other variables. No scientific evidence, just anecdotal. After reading and listening to Joe F discuss it, it seems that maybe its best attribute is in chelating the copper ions from using copper ICs which many of us still have. The beer seems improved to me in character and definitely in its shelf life. I'm curious to see the results of Denny's IGOR experiment with Brewtan to get some good feedback. I'm human so I'm not immune to confirmation bias but I've also brewed for a long time and feel like my beers are noticeably better. Having said that, I'm ready to work low O2 techniques and SMB into my routine (to the best of my ability) with the next batch and see if there are noticeable improvements there.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 17, 2016, 06:08:31 pm
Here's my big question: Since I'm tied to my copper-using Therminator, would Brewtan B help "offset" this when brewing using low-O2 methods? Seems to me it will...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 17, 2016, 06:12:52 pm
Here's my big question: Since I'm tied to my copper-using Therminator, would Brewtan B help "offset" this when brewing using low-O2 methods? Seems to me it will...


Wish I could answer scientifically. My gut reaction is that it might be what Brewtan does best and could account for the improvement some of us are seeing. Joe F seemed to concur on the podcast and he is in a better position to know. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 06:22:47 pm
That question is a tough one. To know the answer you would have to get the wort tested to know the levels of copper in the wort. However not just the use of copper is going to go against you in his case.  Anyone using normal tap water is going to potentially have heavy metals here as well. Which could thwart your low oxygen brewing techniques in the mash tun as well.
I think the short answer to both is yes, it could benefit you. The long answer is much longer and scientific. I have nothing against Joe either... but don't forget he is a salesman that sells a product. 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 18, 2016, 06:03:15 am
Theoretically speaking, will brewtan b do anything for me if I use demi-water and a stainless steel chiller?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 18, 2016, 06:25:09 am
Theoretically speaking, will brewtan b do anything for me if I use demi-water and a stainless steel chiller?

It will bind up some of the undesirable proteins in the mash and boil that typically get removed through process points such as managing the correct mash pH, mash filtering, etc.

Also, as Bryan has pointed out in a few other places, it will give you some protection during packaging if your transfer process is deficient. Since fermentation has essentially eliminated O2, improper purging, transfer and packaging can allow for oxygen ingress which may be the catalyst for Fenton reactions, which Brewtan B should serve to mitigate.

So yes if you feel your purging, transfer and packaging stage is deficient. No if that stage of your process is sound.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 18, 2016, 08:27:21 am
Theoretically speaking, will brewtan b do anything for me if I use demi-water and a stainless steel chiller?

It will bind up some of the undesirable proteins in the mash and boil that typically get removed through process points such as managing the correct mash pH, mash filtering, etc.

Also, as Bryan has pointed out in a few other places, it will give you some protection during packaging if your transfer process is deficient. Since fermentation has essentially eliminated O2, improper purging, transfer and packaging can allow for oxygen ingress which may be the catalyst for Fenton reactions, which Brewtan B should serve to mitigate.

So yes if you feel your purging, transfer and packaging stage is deficient. No if that stage of your process is sound.
This could very well explain my situation because I do open transfers to purged kegs.  I know a lot of people do closed transfers using CO2 but I have just never been into that idea.  I have to say though that I would be surprised that the sort of harsh finish that I had been getting in some of my beers were due to open transfer alone.  I'm willing to accept it if that's the case but it would be surprising.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 09:11:02 am
Its quite astonishing what little you have to do to end up with out of range DO readings. For instance, you could follow the proper techniques to a T and still get out of range levels purely by the Co2 you use. For all intents and purposes the acceptable limit of DO in finished beer is .15ppm(you really want less). Simply adding gelatin to a keg, buy popping the top and adding it, is going to put you above .4ppm. Your open siphoning method I personally tested and have the hard numbers on. You are looking at .7-.9ppm which is 7 to 9 times the acceptable limit. Even doing a closed transfer with as proper as we can purge a keg, you are looking at .2-.3 if you let the beer come to final gravity.

Without a DO meter you are blind, but I am also not saying its imperative that you need one. There are ways you can mitigate the issues.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: wobdee on October 18, 2016, 09:34:56 am
Theoretically speaking, will brewtan b do anything for me if I use demi-water and a stainless steel chiller?

It will bind up some of the undesirable proteins in the mash and boil that typically get removed through process points such as managing the correct mash pH, mash filtering, etc.

Also, as Bryan has pointed out in a few other places, it will give you some protection during packaging if your transfer process is deficient. Since fermentation has essentially eliminated O2, improper purging, transfer and packaging can allow for oxygen ingress which may be the catalyst for Fenton reactions, which Brewtan B should serve to mitigate.

So yes if you feel your purging, transfer and packaging stage is deficient. No if that stage of your process is sound.
This could very well explain my situation because I do open transfers to purged kegs.  I know a lot of people do closed transfers using CO2 but I have just never been into that idea.  I have to say though that I would be surprised that the sort of harsh finish that I had been getting in some of my beers were due to open transfer alone.  I'm willing to accept it if that's the case but it would be surprising.
I have found with open transfer a little SMB in the keg helps
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 18, 2016, 11:07:27 am
At this point and with these latest batches of brewtan beer, I don't find myself looking for the cause of problems, off-flavors, etc. so I'm not going to futz with anything.  It could be that I went from making [what I consider] very good beer to making great beer and right now I'm celebrating that bump in beer quality.  But it may happen at some point where I'm tasting something that needs to be addressed and I will keep this thread in my back pocket and think about DO levels in my beer, etc.  I may just not be sensitive to DO in beer or maybe I don't know how to identify it.  Cheers Beerheads.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 12:45:49 pm
At this point and with these latest batches of brewtan beer, I don't find myself looking for the cause of problems, off-flavors, etc. so I'm not going to futz with anything.  It could be that I went from making [what I consider] very good beer to making great beer and right now I'm celebrating that bump in beer quality.  But it may happen at some point where I'm tasting something that needs to be addressed and I will keep this thread in my back pocket and think about DO levels in my beer, etc.  I may just not be sensitive to DO in beer or maybe I don't know how to identify it.  Cheers Beerheads.

It kinda goes back to the Low oxygen method, you would notice you are losing more, if you didn't lose it hot side first.
But at the end of the day, if you are happy and satisfied thats really all that matters.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 18, 2016, 12:57:05 pm
I am satisfied at this point and it's honestly the first time that I have looked around and thought that I had resolved issues that I have faced.  I'm a harsh critic of my beer and if I make one that I don't think should be served, I dump it.  That hasn't happened in a long time but the point is that when I'm drinking my beer I want to be proud of it and enjoy it and have everyone else who drinks it enjoy it as well.  I think that the beer I've made over the past 4-6 months have been the best I have brewed.  That could change but I am very satisfied where things are right now.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 18, 2016, 01:38:14 pm
I am satisfied at this point and it's honestly the first time that I have looked around and thought that I had resolved issues that I have faced.  I'm a harsh critic of my beer and if I make one that I don't think should be served, I dump it.  That hasn't happened in a long time but the point is that when I'm drinking my beer I want to be proud of it and enjoy it and have everyone else who drinks it enjoy it as well.  I think that the beer I've made over the past 4-6 months have been the best I have brewed.  That could change but I am very satisfied where things are right now.  Cheers!
This is the way I feel about my beer since I started incorporating low O2 techniques. The last 4-6 months has been the best beer I've brewed in 8 years.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 18, 2016, 01:51:11 pm
I am satisfied at this point and it's honestly the first time that I have looked around and thought that I had resolved issues that I have faced.  I'm a harsh critic of my beer and if I make one that I don't think should be served, I dump it.  That hasn't happened in a long time but the point is that when I'm drinking my beer I want to be proud of it and enjoy it and have everyone else who drinks it enjoy it as well.  I think that the beer I've made over the past 4-6 months have been the best I have brewed.  That could change but I am very satisfied where things are right now.  Cheers!
This is the way I feel about my beer since I started incorporating low O2 techniques. The last 4-6 months has been the best beer I've brewed in 8 years.
That's awesome.  Have you ever had a batch that was sort of so-so... not necessarily BAD but just not your best effort?  So you keep it and drink it but you're just not happy with it.  You try to keep others from drinking it because you don't want them to think you make crappy beer and when the keg finally blows, you celebrate?... Right, me neither.  :D  Depending on the beer and whatever faults I find with it, I may have done that in the past or I might dump it.  But with these latest batches coming out so good, when a keg goes down, tears are shed and there's a somber ceremony now.  :D  Cheers brewing brothers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebrews on October 18, 2016, 02:53:27 pm
Has anyone tried using argon to blanket the mash/water/keg?  It is pretty heavy and can make a pretty good blanket to keep the air out unlike a blanket of CO2 or nitrogen.  I think I heard Jamil talking about using argon to blanket a kettle sour they did at his brewery, but I've never heard of anyone else using it.  It seems like it might make a lot of low O2 stuff a lot easier.

Additionally, could you just put 5" of argon in the keg when you fill it and not worry about purging it by doing the sanitizer push out technique?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 03:15:37 pm
I have delved into the realm of purging with gasses. To be honest it was kind of pain and while it helped, it was no substitute for SMB. I have from the ground up configured my system with low oxygen in mind and using a minimal dose(30mgl) it gives me more than enough protection(I consume 10mg/l from strike to the final transfer to fermenter). Its just so easy to add 1gram of SMB and call it a day.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 18, 2016, 04:00:20 pm
Would anyone envision using SMB along with everything else that I'm already doing (WRT brewtan)?  I did buy some SMB and I actually used it in one batch but the batch was ruined because my new SS chiller had some sort of chemical coating on it and the beer was tossed.  After that I switched to brewtan and didn't use the SMB.  Should I incorporate it into what I'm doing or is it useless unless I'm going full-tilt low-O2?  Cheers.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 18, 2016, 04:07:58 pm
Would anyone envision using SMB along with everything else that I'm already doing (WRT brewtan)?  I did buy some SMB and I actually used it in one batch but the batch was ruined because my new SS chiller had some sort of chemical coating on it and the beer was tossed.  After that I switched to brewtan and didn't use the SMB.  Should I incorporate it into what I'm doing or is it useless unless I'm going full-tilt low-O2?  Cheers.

If I were you, given the fact that you have everything you need to mash using Low O2 methods, I would say do it. If you have a stainless chiller, preboil, use SMB and stick to the other practices related to reducing O2 you are going full tilt.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 18, 2016, 04:32:05 pm
Would anyone envision using SMB along with everything else that I'm already doing (WRT brewtan)?  I did buy some SMB and I actually used it in one batch but the batch was ruined because my new SS chiller had some sort of chemical coating on it and the beer was tossed.  After that I switched to brewtan and didn't use the SMB.  Should I incorporate it into what I'm doing or is it useless unless I'm going full-tilt low-O2?  Cheers.

If I were you, given the fact that you have everything you need to mash using Low O2 methods, I would say do it. If you have a stainless chiller, preboil, use SMB and stick to the other practices related to reducing O2 you are going full tilt.
Yes, but I wouldn't really consider preboiling and then chilling to strike temps... too time-consuming.  I can underlet the transfer to the mash and sparge with some high-temp tubing I picked up.  I also have a larger MT and would prefer to not build the small cover (or whatever) to keep O2 out.  I'm sure that there are some other pieces that I'm forgetting but I do remember looking at all of the things required for low-O2 brewing and shook my head wondering how I would do that *AND* make sure that I was doing everything properly.  It sounded like "one wrong move..." and all of that would be for nothing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 18, 2016, 04:36:16 pm
Would anyone envision using SMB along with everything else that I'm already doing (WRT brewtan)?  I did buy some SMB and I actually used it in one batch but the batch was ruined because my new SS chiller had some sort of chemical coating on it and the beer was tossed.  After that I switched to brewtan and didn't use the SMB.  Should I incorporate it into what I'm doing or is it useless unless I'm going full-tilt low-O2?  Cheers.

If I were you, given the fact that you have everything you need to mash using Low O2 methods, I would say do it. If you have a stainless chiller, preboil, use SMB and stick to the other practices related to reducing O2 you are going full tilt.
Yes, but I wouldn't really consider preboiling and then chilling to strike temps... too time-consuming.  I can underlet the transfer to the mash and sparge with some high-temp tubing I picked up.  I also have a larger MT and would prefer to not build the small cover (or whatever) to keep O2 out.  I'm sure that there are some other pieces that I'm forgetting but I do remember looking at all of the things required for low-O2 brewing and shook my head wondering how I would do that *AND* make sure that I was doing everything properly.  It sounded like "one wrong move..." and all of that would be for nothing.

I would say stick with what you've been doing if you don't plan on preboiling. SMB alone won't give you much margin.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 18, 2016, 04:41:40 pm
Pre-boiling is the biggest hurdle for me. Maybe when I switch to electric, or NG, I will reevaluate. This will likely happen when I have dedicated space and the ability to leave all vessels in place from start to clean (read garage or workshop). I would also likely add a third vessel, but don't know if I'd move to fly sparging right away.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebrews on October 18, 2016, 04:44:31 pm
I have been a bit puzzled by the pre-boiling thing.  Granted, it will reduce the oxygen in the strike water, but at a strike temp about 70C (to get 65C for the rest), the saturated DO in water is going to be around 5.25ppm.  Using typical dosing of SMB, doesn't that give you an oxygen "buffer" of 15ppm or so (according to the literature I was reading)?  So, shouldn't you be able to handle the DO in the strike water even without doing anything special.  Granted, you will have less O2 buffer for later at that point. 

I still don't understand how people are chilling fast in a manner that doesn't agitate the wort.  I guess everyone could be using a counterflow or plate chiller, but for anyone using an immersion chiller it seems like it would be hard to get fast cooling without agitation (hence the whirlpool chiller that many of us use).  With all that surface exchange of the liquid and dropping temp, I would think that you would use up the SMB "buffer" way before you finished chilling.

I'm not trying to troll, I'm honestly curious about what/why people are doing things the way they are.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 04:46:47 pm
Remember all. You don't HAVE to preboil. The yeast method is a very valid and easy solution.


http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 18, 2016, 04:52:43 pm
Remember all. You don't HAVE to preboil. The yeast method is a very valid and easy solution.


http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

Thanks Bryan. With all the talk of preboil I neglected to remember the yeast scavenge method.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 18, 2016, 05:04:12 pm
Remember all. You don't HAVE to preboil. The yeast method is a very valid and easy solution.


http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

Yes, I am intrigued by this method.

I have another question for those of you doing low DO methods....Does this process benefit ALL styles of beer including ales, or just more delicate styles like lagers and kolsch?

I am working my way to a much needed upgrade in my system after about 12 years of brewing and would possibly consider putting together a system that would benefit from this process if all styles of beer would see improvements. I only ask this simply because I saw another post in this thread of someone who was performing Low DO brewing and indicated that he did see improvements in his lagers, but did not care for the fresh "nose in the grain bag" aroma/flavor he got from it for his ales.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 18, 2016, 05:10:27 pm
Pretty cool. Again will require me to have dedicated space as I brew outdoors on a balcony where I get 15mph breezes.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 18, 2016, 05:30:21 pm
Has anyone tried using argon to blanket the mash/water/keg?  It is pretty heavy and can make a pretty good blanket to keep the air out unlike a blanket of CO2 or nitrogen.  I think I heard Jamil talking about using argon to blanket a kettle sour they did at his brewery, but I've never heard of anyone else using it.  It seems like it might make a lot of low O2 stuff a lot easier.

Additionally, could you just put 5" of argon in the keg when you fill it and not worry about purging it by doing the sanitizer push out technique?
I know mead makers that do this, as it helps to keep O2 out, and they have a still mead as it does not diffuse in and carbonate the mead.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 18, 2016, 05:38:49 pm
I did use my plate chiller to chill to strike temp.  I have a thermocouple probe on the output so it was easy to dial in the temp.

The time to preboiling was longer, but I mostly made up for it doing no sparge.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 05:59:11 pm
Remember all. You don't HAVE to preboil. The yeast method is a very valid and easy solution.


http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

Yes, I am intrigued by this method.

I have another question for those of you doing low DO methods....Does this process benefit ALL styles of beer including ales, or just more delicate styles like lagers and kolsch?

I am working my way to a much needed upgrade in my system after about 12 years of brewing and would possibly consider putting together a system that would benefit from this process if all styles of beer would see improvements. I only ask this simply because I saw another post in this thread of someone who was performing Low DO brewing and indicated that he did see improvements in his lagers, but did not care for the fresh "nose in the grain bag" aroma/flavor he got from it for his ales.  Thoughts?
I will never brew another beer without using the low oxygen techniques. Everyone I have had try my pale ales and the like nearly fall over. The clarity of the hops and malt is amazing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebrews on October 18, 2016, 06:13:29 pm
Remember all. You don't HAVE to preboil. The yeast method is a very valid and easy solution.


http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

I will never brew another beer without using the low oxygen techniques. Everyone I have had try my pale ales and the like nearly fall over. The clarity of the hops and malt is amazing.

What chilling method do you use (just kind of bumping that question from before)?  With some of the newer hopping methods using whirlpools at lower temps (170F for example), that would seem like a problematic thing to do with the Low DO methods.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 06:18:38 pm
Remember all. You don't HAVE to preboil. The yeast method is a very valid and easy solution.


http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

I will never brew another beer without using the low oxygen techniques. Everyone I have had try my pale ales and the like nearly fall over. The clarity of the hops and malt is amazing.

What chilling method do you use (just kind of bumping that question from before)?  With some of the newer hopping methods using whirlpools at lower temps (170F for example), that would seem like a problematic thing
do with the Low DO methods.

My pale ales and the like are only late hopped 15/10/0,  then they get a custom pre-isomerized hop extract dosed inline going to spund.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebrews on October 18, 2016, 06:22:09 pm
Ok, that is simple enough...I'm still wondering about the chilling part (unless "going to the spund" is a term I'm not familiar with)
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 06:25:46 pm
Ok, that is simple enough...I'm still wondering about the chilling part (unless "going to the spund" is a term I'm not familiar with)

Oh I'm sorry. I use a SS counterflow chiller.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebrews on October 18, 2016, 06:29:42 pm
Thanks.  Do you know of anyone that uses an immersion with this method successfully?  It certainly doesn't seem to lend itself to the method, but the immersion/whirlpool chiller is superb if you need to drop the wort temp fast (as in, to stop SMM turning to DMS or alpha acid isomerization).  I could see if maybe a very gentle whirlpool was used, maybe run CO2 into the headspace of the kettle with the lid on.  It doesn't take much movement to make the chilling work (or to exchange the surface and allow for oxygen pickup for that matter).
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 18, 2016, 06:35:11 pm
Links for the chiller? Most I've seen are copper core.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 06:44:04 pm
Links for the chiller? Most I've seen are copper core.
It an older model that Williams brewing used to sell. It Was all SS. Looks like they are not selling them anymore.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 18, 2016, 06:47:32 pm
Links for the chiller? Most I've seen are copper core.
It an older model that Williams brewing used to sell. It Was all SS. Looks like they are not selling them anymore.

I'm my recent searches for TC fittings I've seen plenty of all stainless CFCs with TC fittings for connections.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 18, 2016, 06:48:45 pm
Links for the chiller? Most I've seen are copper core.
It an older model that Williams brewing used to sell. It Was all SS. Looks like they are not selling them anymore.

Yeah, a counterflow chiller is the long pole in the tent for me eliminating copper. I like to brew lagers in 10 gallon batches, to minimize "waste" in my freezer. I'm not waiting on an immersion chiller to get that much wort down to pitching temps. The therminator is a beast, but it's brazed with copper.

Links for the chiller? Most I've seen are copper core.
It an older model that Williams brewing used to sell. It Was all SS. Looks like they are not selling them anymore.

I'm my recent searches for TC fittings I've seen plenty of all stainless CFCs with TC fittings for connections.

At what price point? I know a lot of small breweries have TC stainless chillers, but they likely cost more than my entire system.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Big Monk on October 18, 2016, 07:07:38 pm
I don't have exact numbers but they aren't cheap.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: natebrews on October 18, 2016, 07:10:12 pm
Hm, I was thinking about this some since I have a copper chiller.  It isn't very hard to nickel plate copper with common stuff....
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 18, 2016, 10:23:21 pm
Links for the chiller? Most I've seen are copper core.
It an older model that Williams brewing used to sell. It Was all SS. Looks like they are not selling them anymore.
Bummer. I'm not in the market now as is, so no worries. I have seen one from china that has some fuggly welds. I'd likely just make one out of garden hose and stainless tubing.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 19, 2016, 01:36:53 am
Speidel sells stainless chillers to go with the Braumeister.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: narvin on October 19, 2016, 08:33:06 am
Once I get some Brewtan I'm going to compare the results to using smb and preboiling.  But, I have a therminator and a copper pickup tube in the kettle, and I still saw some improvements on one batch in terms of wort darkening and smoothness and improved lagering time.  Nothing scientific, and I didn't correct for the pH drop from the smb, so I hit a lower level than normal.  But it's enough to make me suggest you try it even without removing copper.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 19, 2016, 11:47:22 am
Brewtan on order and I hope to get a lager done for Christmas using both Brewtan and low oxy (not wholly, but pretty close).  I want to try the pre-yeasting approach.  That seems very do-able on my system....
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 19, 2016, 12:39:34 pm
Remember all. You don't HAVE to preboil. The yeast method is a very valid and easy solution.


http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

Yes, I am intrigued by this method.

I have another question for those of you doing low DO methods....Does this process benefit ALL styles of beer including ales, or just more delicate styles like lagers and kolsch?

I am working my way to a much needed upgrade in my system after about 12 years of brewing and would possibly consider putting together a system that would benefit from this process if all styles of beer would see improvements. I only ask this simply because I saw another post in this thread of someone who was performing Low DO brewing and indicated that he did see improvements in his lagers, but did not care for the fresh "nose in the grain bag" aroma/flavor he got from it for his ales.  Thoughts?
I will never brew another beer without using the low oxygen techniques. Everyone I have had try my pale ales and the like nearly fall over. The clarity of the hops and malt is amazing.

Great!  I brew all styles of beer so, that had to be a must for me. Thanks!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 19, 2016, 12:47:53 pm
I do agree that some beers are still going to need oxidation to taste "right". British styles come readily to mind, mine never taste quite right until they've sat in the keg and oxidized ever so slightly. Takes the edge off all the different flavors and helps them meld together.

I'd love to see how a low O2 barelywine ages though. O2 will get to it eventually, but will it behave differently when it does?

I think my mantra from here on out is going to be to try and most accurately recreate the original brewery's conditions. I have an idea for a "Yorkshire Circle" for English beer, and I'd love to try and brew a Saison Dupont clone that follows their fermentation schedule/temps. German Macrobeer will get the low O2 treatment.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 19, 2016, 01:51:17 pm
I do agree that some beers are still going to need oxidation to taste "right". British styles come readily to mind, mine never taste quite right until they've sat in the keg and oxidized ever so slightly. Takes the edge off all the different flavors and helps them meld together.

I don't know how that can be true. Maybe they taste differently in the UK? I've not been over there, so I can't say for sure, but the beers we get probably aren't super fresh. But I don't know how fresh malt and hops could be a bad thing for any style.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 19, 2016, 02:03:18 pm
Slight oxidation is a hallmark of "Real Ale". While I haven't been to England, I have had cask ale from a few different breweries that are known for getting the British "IT" right. Cask ale will oxidize, it's expose to the air after all. But time that oxidation right, and it smooths out the beer very nicely.

If you're going for an American "Hops and malt to 11" beer, no, that oxidation isn't going to help. But a smooth, lightly carbonated pint? Works great.

Also, I doubt fresh hops would work well in certain Belgian styles...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 19, 2016, 04:56:12 pm
I don't want to get precariously off-topic but here's a loosely-related tangent:  I was watching a show where the owner, operator or brewer of the Brain's Brewery in Cardiff, Wales was talking about the beer, kegging, etc.  Since they use some sort of hand-pump to tap the beers, they're using air (right?) so kegs of beer in the UK that are served that way "are perishable.  Much like someone would think of milk"... is what he said.  He went on to say that the kegs only last for about 48 hours which sounds about right.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 19, 2016, 05:10:16 pm
I don't want to get precariously off-topic but here's a loosely-related tangent:  I was watching a show where the owner, operator or brewer of the Brain's Brewery in Cardiff, Wales was talking about the beer, kegging, etc.  Since they use some sort of hand-pump to tap the beers, they're using air (right?) so kegs of beer in the UK that are served that way "are perishable.  Much like someone would think of milk"... is what he said.  He went on to say that the kegs only last for about 48 hours which sounds about right.  Interesting.

For sure, they don't last long.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 19, 2016, 05:25:15 pm
I think his words were "the keg will only last for about 48 hours once it's breached" which is wild.  Does that mean that if a crowd comes in and drinks half the keg but then no one else orders that particular beer for another 2 days that they toss it out?  Do they waste a lot of beer in the UK because of this type of serving?  I love my English beers but I still dispense with CO2.  I know some guys who use PINS but I have never looked at that.
Title: Brewtan B
Post by: tommymorris on October 19, 2016, 06:59:14 pm
The thing I look forward to most when I try Brewtan (and low oxygen brewing) is the keg lasting longer.  Right now my kegs last 3-4 weeks before running out beer. That is not nearly long enough.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 19, 2016, 07:20:08 pm
I don't want to get precariously off-topic but here's a loosely-related tangent:  I was watching a show where the owner, operator or brewer of the Brain's Brewery in Cardiff, Wales was talking about the beer, kegging, etc.  Since they use some sort of hand-pump to tap the beers, they're using air (right?) so kegs of beer in the UK that are served that way "are perishable.  Much like someone would think of milk"... is what he said.  He went on to say that the kegs only last for about 48 hours which sounds about right.  Interesting.
That is why you want to find a pub with decent turn over. Some cask beers are best at day two to three, then fall off quickly.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Stevie on October 19, 2016, 07:37:10 pm
I don't want to get precariously off-topic but here's a loosely-related tangent:  I was watching a show where the owner, operator or brewer of the Brain's Brewery in Cardiff, Wales was talking about the beer, kegging, etc.  Since they use some sort of hand-pump to tap the beers, they're using air (right?) so kegs of beer in the UK that are served that way "are perishable.  Much like someone would think of milk"... is what he said.  He went on to say that the kegs only last for about 48 hours which sounds about right.  Interesting.
That is why you want to find a pub with decent turn over. Some cask beers are best at day two to three, then fall off quickly.
Yep, it is important to find a popular pub with a solid publican.
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Phil_M on October 19, 2016, 09:11:16 pm
I think his words were "the keg will only last for about 48 hours once it's breached" which is wild.  Does that mean that if a crowd comes in and drinks half the keg but then no one else orders that particular beer for another 2 days that they toss it out?  Do they waste a lot of beer in the UK because of this type of serving?  I love my English beers but I still dispense with CO2.  I know some guys who use PINS but I have never looked at that.

I'm trying to go that route. Bought a pin, hop to tap one or two days before serving. Goal is to use holiday events that can kill off a pin that quickly.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27813.0
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: beersk on October 20, 2016, 07:42:05 am
I don't want to get precariously off-topic but here's a loosely-related tangent:  I was watching a show where the owner, operator or brewer of the Brain's Brewery in Cardiff, Wales was talking about the beer, kegging, etc.  Since they use some sort of hand-pump to tap the beers, they're using air (right?) so kegs of beer in the UK that are served that way "are perishable.  Much like someone would think of milk"... is what he said.  He went on to say that the kegs only last for about 48 hours which sounds about right.  Interesting.
They might also use something called an aspirator that supplies the cask with an atmospheric pressure of co2 as to not carbonate the beer but keep it from being exposed to o2. And still I disagree that slight oxidation is what makes real ale, I think the fact that it's lower carbonated and FRESH makes it "real ale".

But anyway, we should get this back on topic here...
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: The Beerery on October 20, 2016, 07:47:14 am
I am not going to join in on the discussion of "real ale" or British beers because, they are far from my cup o tea (;D) .

But I can chime in on oxidation effects on beer cold side. Simply a poor transfer from the fermenter is enough o2 pickup to make flavors dramatically change within 24hrs. So I have zero doubt these beers if really oxidized will show signs and turn rather quickly, though it behooves me to understand why one would purposely do it!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 20, 2016, 07:52:47 am
I didn't mean to veer off-course.  The brewtan thread is the one that I have been most interested in lately so I don't want to turn it into a trainwreck.  Outside of the German styles I make and the American styles, I also like my English ESBs and EPAs.  I don't do stouts, porters, giant IPAs or Belgians so there is a decent-sized slice of the beer wheel where I don't go.  I just smacked a pack of 1728 to make some Scottish ales and I'm going to use it for some bitter and pale ales too.  We can return to our regularly-scheduled programming... :D
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: zwiller on October 20, 2016, 02:48:03 pm
I don't really think we went off course talking about Brewtan and real ales.  I think there is a chance Brewtan could actually keep a real ale "in the zone" longer but then again it could actually prevent the magical oxidation but I really doubt that.  I think it should actually slow it down and that could be a good thing.  I'd imagine the Aussie's already know more about this... 
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: brewinhard on October 20, 2016, 02:58:59 pm
I don't really think we went off course talking about Brewtan and real ales.  I think there is a chance Brewtan could actually keep a real ale "in the zone" longer but then again it could actually prevent the magical oxidation but I really doubt that.  I think it should actually slow it down and that could be a good thing.  I'd imagine the Aussie's already know more about this...

Possibly, but I would bet exposing a beer to any oxygen ingress, brewtan or not, would not help a beer to "last" longer in terms of freshness. I have been closed-transferring my beers from primary directly into the keg for a few years now, and that has been one of the single best things I have done to help improve beer flavor, aroma, and stability.
This low DO brewing has also got me interested. Really gotta wrap my head around the process and see where I can improve my system. Love all the sharing going on here lately, from everyone...

Thanks and cheers to you all!
Title: Re: Brewtan B
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 20, 2016, 07:05:30 pm
I don't really think we went off course talking about Brewtan and real ales.  I think there is a chance Brewtan could actually keep a real ale "in the zone" longer but then again it could actually prevent the magical oxidation but I really doubt that.  I think it should actually slow it down and that could be a good thing.  I'd imagine the Aussie's already know more about this...

Possibly, but I would bet exposing a beer to any oxygen ingress, brewtan or not, would not help a beer to "last" longer in terms of freshness. I have been closed-transferring my beers from primary directly into the keg for a few years now, and that has been one of the single best things I have done to help improve beer flavor, aroma, and stability.
This low DO brewing has also got me interested. Really gotta wrap my head around the process and see where I can improve my system. Love all the sharing going on here lately, from everyone...

Thanks and cheers to you all!

I even bought some new equipment yesterday, a little more to purchase before I think I can do it properly.

I have made English beers that were too clean in the past, when I did too much like fermenting a lager on the cold