Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Going Pro => Topic started by: syncopadence on May 31, 2016, 02:13:38 PM

Title: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: syncopadence on May 31, 2016, 02:13:38 PM
Hey guys, I might be getting a cellar position in Ohio, and don't want to ruin my chances by saying the wrong number.  I was wondering if you guys could help me.  It's an entry level cellar position, so would $15/hr be asking too much? What's a good number?  I really want the position, but still need to pay the bills.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: RPIScotty on May 31, 2016, 02:33:20 PM
My advice would be take it and get a second job.

Trying to pay the bills with an entry level brewing job is likely to disappoint at best and to wreck you financially at worst.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: narvin on May 31, 2016, 02:47:26 PM
Does the brewer even make $15 an hour?
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: denny on May 31, 2016, 02:53:08 PM
Yeah, I'd be surprised if it was over $7/hr.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: syncopadence on May 31, 2016, 02:58:10 PM
I know one of the brewers, and he's salaried, but he said it works out to just over $15/hr. So from that point of reference, what would be fair to ask for (if that changes anything)?
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: reverseapachemaster on May 31, 2016, 04:40:34 PM
Find a local brewery of comparable size and ask the/one of the cellar workers what they make. The wage difference between comparable local breweries is likely minimal. I'd be surprised if it's much more than minimum wage.

At that level I would expect the brewery to already know what they expect to pay you without asking you for input. After all, there are so many people begging to do this work for free the breweries have little incentive to pay more than minimum wage.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on May 31, 2016, 04:47:56 PM
Find a local brewery of comparable size and ask the/one of the cellar workers what they make. The wage difference between comparable local breweries is likely minimal. I'd be surprised if it's much more than minimum wage.

At that level I would expect the brewery to already know what they expect to pay you without asking you for input. After all, there are so many people begging to do this work for free the breweries have little incentive to pay more than minimum wage.
To paraphrase Ray Daniels at the Grand Rapids NHC. "The pay reflects the supply of people wanting to get into the industry greatly exceeding the demand."

Some small places around here pay about $30k or so for a head Brewer.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: a10t2 on May 31, 2016, 04:54:33 PM
As one data point, I made about that as lead cellarman at a mid-size production brewery.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: brewinhard on May 31, 2016, 04:54:48 PM
Find a local brewery of comparable size and ask the/one of the cellar workers what they make. The wage difference between comparable local breweries is likely minimal. I'd be surprised if it's much more than minimum wage.

At that level I would expect the brewery to already know what they expect to pay you without asking you for input. After all, there are so many people begging to do this work for free the breweries have little incentive to pay more than minimum wage.

Some small places around here pay about $30k or so for a head Brewer.

Yep.  A few years ago, my buddy took a head brewer position at a new small brewpub and was starting around 32K. He would work 10 hr days + sometimes and I don't know how he footed his bills.  He was lucky he had no kids to take care of...
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on May 31, 2016, 05:08:16 PM
As one data point, I made about that as lead cellarman at a mid-size production brewery.
Ray had some pay ranges in his talk. Yeah, the pay went up for larger production breweries. I know some that even get some nice benefits at the bigger craft breweries.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: majorvices on June 04, 2016, 12:02:11 AM
We start our guys out at $9-10 per hour and move them up accordingly. It obviously depends where you live but $15 an hour sounds really high regardless (for a starting position). Minimum wage here is 7.25 so a starting wage of 9-10/hour is not unreasonable.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on June 04, 2016, 12:59:44 AM
Hey guys, I might be getting a cellar position in Ohio, and don't want to ruin my chances by saying the wrong number.  I was wondering if you guys could help me.  It's an entry level cellar position, so would $15/hr be asking too much? What's a good number?  I really want the position, but still need to pay the bills.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Remember you are in training and you have no experience.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: jt240z on June 08, 2016, 05:00:33 PM
What do you all think will happen to the fledgling brew industry if minimum wage goes to $15/hr?  I'd be very concerned that small breweries would suffer greatly based on the wages I see here.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: RPIScotty on June 08, 2016, 05:04:08 PM
What do you all think will happen to the fledgling brew industry if minimum wage goes to $15/hr?  I'd be very concerned that small breweries would suffer greatly based on the wages I see here.

Minimum wage is being raised on a state and regional basis. An answer to your question would need to be answered by someone in NY, CA or DC.

I know Baltimore is considering it as well.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: blair.streit on June 08, 2016, 05:19:19 PM
What do you all think will happen to the fledgling brew industry if minimum wage goes to $15/hr?  I'd be very concerned that small breweries would suffer greatly based on the wages I see here.
If wages go up then beer prices will also go up. Of all the things that could screw this up, I'd be least concerned about an increase in the minimum wage.

In the case of brewing, I think lower wages are mostly due to the fact that so many people want to do it (too much supply). Case in point -- I met a pro brewer making really good beer who was an auto mechanic 2 years ago.   The demand for auto mechanics isn't going down, but he took a pay cut to become a brewer because he likes the work and felt like it was a better opportunity.

I think wages will be rectified in the next big correction, but supply has to outpace demand first. Sure, the pressure from a higher minimum wage will hurt profitability for some breweries. However, it could also weed out some breweries that are making mediocre beer and getting away with it in this hot market. A little "drag" could actually prevent a high growth market from turning into an unsustainable bubble.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: jt240z on June 08, 2016, 06:00:31 PM
Minimum wage is being raised on a state and regional basis. An answer to your question would need to be answered by someone in NY, CA or DC.

I know Baltimore is considering it as well.

The push for a Federal minimum wage my take this to another level.  I'm sure that the effect on larger operations would be minimal and there would be some weeding out of poor operations, but startups may very well be reduced as well.  If the cost of that startup is greatly increased (doubling of labor costs) then they very well  maybe much less willing to make that jump.  Quotes from Arthur Blank and Bernard Marcus seem to indicate that Home Depot could never have been started in today's environment let alone a time when even small town America has to endure a $15 pay rate for even the most mundane working position.  The rules of supply and demand would be broken.  No matter how much someone was willing to take a position for less pay, the business would be unable to provide that or violate Federal law.  Just make me wonder where this would go.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Stevie on June 08, 2016, 06:06:11 PM
I call bs. Labor is between 1 and 3% according to studies I've seen. Closer to 1 at retail and closer to 3 at wholesale. Sure it will suck at first, but they will adjust. When the minimum wage does go up (I say when because it is inevitable), it will not go up in one go.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: narvin on June 08, 2016, 06:09:35 PM
What do you all think will happen to the fledgling brew industry if minimum wage goes to $15/hr?  I'd be very concerned that small breweries would suffer greatly based on the wages I see here.

Fledgling?  The amount of money poured into breweries is huge right now.  If anything there are too many breweries who don't know how to make good beer.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: brewinhard on June 08, 2016, 06:12:29 PM
What do you all think will happen to the fledgling brew industry if minimum wage goes to $15/hr?  I'd be very concerned that small breweries would suffer greatly based on the wages I see here.

 If anything there are too many breweries who don't know how to make good beer.

Totally agree to an unfortunate reality. I still find it so ridiculous that so many new brewpubs/breweries are opening up that simply aren't serving good beers. Get your s**t together before even thinking about opening one please!
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: narvin on June 08, 2016, 06:16:14 PM
Also, if Home Depot had never been started, we'd all be better off.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: jt240z on June 08, 2016, 06:35:09 PM
I call bs. Labor is between 1 and 3% according to studies I've seen. Closer to 1 at retail and closer to 3 at wholesale. Sure it will suck at first, but they will adjust. When the minimum wage does go up (I say when because it is inevitable), it will not go up in one go.

Not BS at all.  Actually labor is more in line with 10 to 20% in the retail market depending on what type of retail business you're in.  That's according to the US Department of Labor.  I own a retail business so I'm speaking from experience here.  Doubling earnings at the bottom of the pay scale will not only effect wages at that level.  Wages will rise across the board as will the costs of products and services.  The results could very well be the stifling of new startups and  provide no real improvement in the cost of living. 

Not trying to debate the merits of a higher minimum wage.  I'm trying to understand the impact of wages on a startup brewery.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Stevie on June 08, 2016, 06:43:09 PM
You phrased it from a brewers perspective, not retail.

This is getting close to politics, so I will bow out.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: jt240z on June 08, 2016, 07:07:26 PM
Sorry, not trying to be political.  Was just curious about how labor costs would effect the professional brewing industry.  I have a friend who's currently a Home Brew supply company owner and he is thinking of moving into the micro brewery and wine making industry.  This would be in the Atlanta GA area.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: jt240z on June 08, 2016, 07:15:36 PM
You phrased it from a brewers perspective, not retail.

This is getting close to politics, so I will bow out.

Sorry, only quoted retail numbers because that's what I know and the figure of 1% was being thrown out.  Since this thread was speaking about brewery labor costs I was more curious to how those would be impacted.  I do have a friend that's thinking of doing a startup but he's trying to capture all the costs and labor was one aspect. 
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on June 08, 2016, 07:26:20 PM
I call bs. Labor is between 1 and 3% according to studies I've seen. Closer to 1 at retail and closer to 3 at wholesale. Sure it will suck at first, but they will adjust. When the minimum wage does go up (I say when because it is inevitable), it will not go up in one go.
Steve,

My labor cost is my largest ongoing expense. I have 12 people on books.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: jt240z on June 08, 2016, 08:00:34 PM
I call bs. Labor is between 1 and 3% according to studies I've seen. Closer to 1 at retail and closer to 3 at wholesale. Sure it will suck at first, but they will adjust. When the minimum wage does go up (I say when because it is inevitable), it will not go up in one go.
Steve,

My labor cost is my largest ongoing expense. I have 12 people on books.

Exactly my point.  Labor costs are a major component to ongoing expenses.  If these costs are held low because of supply and demand for the positions, then what impact will we be seeing if those costs ramp up significantly?  We're trying to project costs going on into the future and this thread has got me thinking.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Stevie on June 08, 2016, 08:02:42 PM
Leos - you're operating with tasting room employees as well, correct? Do you also self distribute? If so, your labor costs will be higher but could be seen as offset by what would be spent by a distributor or bar owner.

My google skills are failing today, so I can't find the article where I saw the above.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on June 08, 2016, 08:23:17 PM
Leos - you're operating with tasting room employees as well, correct? Do you also self distribute? If so, your labor costs will be higher but could be seen as offset by what would be spent by a distributor or bar owner.

My google skills are failing today, so I can't find the article where I saw the above.

Yes most of my employees work as BierHall servers. I self distribute but it is in limited area.

I look at it that I need to provide for employees adequate earning potential as they could live on the pay. This way they are better employees.

On the other side there is a question. Can I afford you?  So it comes down to focus on higher margins products.

If you exhausted business earning potential and by law we are required to pay more, then it become to be a math problem. You start charging more for your product.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: majorvices on June 09, 2016, 11:09:57 AM
First off, minimum wage isn't going to go to $15/hr no matter what anyone says. But it may go up to $12. Regardless most "fledgling" operations are being built on the back of owner labor (read "free" labor) and volunteer labor. Once a brewery starts to see success it should be able to find a way to balance the books to accommodate the higher pay.

I'm hoping to raise our "minimum" salary this year to $12/hr that would apply after a probationary period.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: pete b on June 09, 2016, 03:41:58 PM
The problem with wages/labor costs is that they are a self fulfilling prophecy in both directions across an economy. If the mindset across an entire economy is that employers must pay as little as possible to labor to maximize profits then far fewer people are going to be able to buy their product and they will continue to feel pressure to cut costs. If the mindset is pay as much as we can afford to attract and retain great employees then more can afford the product and higher wager are feasible. The problem is that people like Leos who understand this and want to pay good wages will feel its risky if their competitors are paying less. Without intervention the economy gets stuck in the low wage/slow growth cycle.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: micsager on June 09, 2016, 04:23:41 PM
I call bs. Labor is between 1 and 3% according to studies I've seen. Closer to 1 at retail and closer to 3 at wholesale. Sure it will suck at first, but they will adjust. When the minimum wage does go up (I say when because it is inevitable), it will not go up in one go.

I'd love to see those studies.  In my company (not a brewery) labor is 55% of our total costs. 
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: klickitat jim on June 09, 2016, 05:39:00 PM
I think the best way to increase your income is to increase the value and or the amount of your labor. When you increase cost without increasing value it's just inflation
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: blair.streit on June 09, 2016, 06:27:04 PM
I think the best way to increase your income is to increase the value and or the amount of your labor. When you increase cost without increasing value it's just inflation
I completely agree. Reasonable people will always pay for value. Agreeing on what's valuable and to what extent is another matter entirely.

Have you ever worked with someone and thought, "until meeting this person I never considered that annual pay decreases might make sense for some people"?

Most people have worked with someone who doesn't pull their weight but manages to stick around. Over time, this drag on productivity needs to be accounted for.

Other than getting fired, most people expect that wages only go up over time. So, to compensate for wage inflation (e.g. wages increasing without a commensurate increase in value provided), we have price inflation (same thing).

As with most economics concepts, there's a chicken and egg problem here. However, in my mind it doesn't really matter which came first. The concept just helps describe the forces that drive the cycle.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: pete b on June 09, 2016, 07:23:11 PM
I think the best way to increase your income is to increase the value and or the amount of your labor. When you increase cost without increasing value it's just inflation
I completely agree. Reasonable people will always pay for value. Agreeing on what's valuable and to what extent is another matter entirely.

Have you ever worked with someone and thought, "until meeting this person I never considered that annual pay decreases might make sense for some people"?

Most people have worked with someone who doesn't pull their weight but manages to stick around. Over time, this drag on productivity needs to be accounted for.

Other than getting fired, most people expect that wages only go up over time. So, to compensate for wage inflation (e.g. wages increasing without a commensurate increase in value provided), we have price inflation (same thing).

As with most economics concepts, there's a chicken and egg problem here. However, in my mind it doesn't really matter which came first. The concept just helps describe the forces that drive the cycle.
I can't tell if you are talking about individuals you know or the economy as a whole. Overall in the past 30 years,give or take, the productivity of workers has skyrocketed, along with it corporate profits, while wages have stagnated. While we can all think of anecdotes about annoying coworkers, as a whole people are getting more education and training (mostly out of their own pocket) and working more hours- so doing exactly what Jim prescribed (increasing the value and amount of their labor)- while wages have been stagnant and benefits slashed. I don't think there is a chicken and egg problem here, those who benefit from this arrangement simply gained power and dismantled capitalism.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: a10t2 on June 09, 2016, 07:57:08 PM
Have you ever worked with someone and thought, "until meeting this person I never considered that annual pay decreases might make sense for some people"?

Since I'm not allowed to counter the political statements, can we just end on a high note and call that the thread?
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: pete b on June 09, 2016, 08:09:17 PM
Have you ever worked with someone and thought, "until meeting this person I never considered that annual pay decreases might make sense for some people"?

Since I'm not allowed to counter the political statements, can we just end on a high note and call that the thread?
I thought of it more as an economic discussion about the larger forces behind the original question, but its a fine line. I can agree that that what you quoted from Blair is a good zinger.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: blair.streit on June 09, 2016, 09:00:16 PM
Have you ever worked with someone and thought, "until meeting this person I never considered that annual pay decreases might make sense for some people"?

Since I'm not allowed to counter the political statements, can we just end on a high note and call that the thread?
I thought of it more as an economic discussion about the larger forces behind the original question, but its a fine line. I can agree that that what you quoted from Blair is a good zinger.
Yeah, sorry this topic does straddle the line between politics and economics. And yes, I used that anecdotal thought completely for shock value (the best ones have some truth, right?).

I agree Pete -- I was enjoying the economics discussion from a more theoretical perspective, but I guess we have strayed a bit beyond the original scope.

Pete -- if you want to keep discussing grab the earlier bits and start a thread in the pub. We might be playing with fire but I think we can control it ;)
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: klickitat jim on June 09, 2016, 09:06:21 PM
Hopefully, my comments on working more and harder are not considered politics.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Stevie on June 09, 2016, 09:11:12 PM
Hopefully, my comments on working more and harder are not considered politics.
Woah, calm down Commie
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: majorvices on June 09, 2016, 09:19:48 PM
Hopefully, my comments on working more and harder are not considered politics.
Woah, calm down Commie

Bwahahahaha!

It is all a little close to politics and really straddling the line and maybe falling over a little bit but I have not considered locking it yet. and yes I am watching.  ;)
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: klickitat jim on June 09, 2016, 09:20:14 PM
Hopefully, my comments on working more and harder are not considered politics.
Woah, calm down Commie
I will try
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: klickitat jim on June 09, 2016, 09:21:11 PM
Hopefully, my comments on working more and harder are not considered politics.
Woah, calm down Commie
I will try
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: blair.streit on June 09, 2016, 09:21:44 PM
Hopefully, my comments on working more and harder are not considered politics.
Woah, calm down Commie

Bwahahahaha!

It is all a little close to politics and really straddling the line and maybe falling over a little bit but I have not considered locking it yet. and yes I am watching.  ;)
I was self-censoring as I felt like all my bloviating was headed in a political direction. I think your comment was pretty tame. Of course then Stevie had to go all Rambo and stuff. Or was that more Red Dawn?
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: pete b on June 09, 2016, 09:58:25 PM
Hopefully, my comments on working more and harder are not considered politics.
Not really Jim, if anyone went over that line it was me. I think mainly I was adding some factual content to the economic part of this but my last sentence was editorializing in a political direction although to my mind we should be able to go there if we keep it fairly general and historical as I was trying to do.
All I really wanted to do is point out that the whole "people are not doing well because they are lazy/uneducated etc", which it seems every generation says about the present situation, is especially and objectively false if you look at the big picture today. I don't think it's political to just point out that, as a whole, people are working longer hours, have more training/education, and are getting less compensation when you  account for inflation and especially if you include benefits. What should be done about it? That's politics. What caused it? ARGUABLY, that's politics, and that's kinda where I went.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 09, 2016, 10:02:18 PM
I'm gonna refrain from any political comments but I get a kick out of watching the tangents some of these threads take. Of course since I'm a serial 'derailer', I'm part of the problem.   :)   
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: klickitat jim on June 09, 2016, 10:40:11 PM
I'm gonna refrain from any political comments but I get a kick out of watching the tangents some of these threads take. Of course since I'm a serial 'derailer', I'm part of the problem.   :)
Well, if you're not part of the problem, you're not part of the forum.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 09, 2016, 10:42:59 PM
I'm gonna refrain from any political comments but I get a kick out of watching the tangents some of these threads take. Of course since I'm a serial 'derailer', I'm part of the problem.   :)
Well, if you're not part of the problem, you're not part of the forum.


Yep!
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Stevie on June 09, 2016, 10:51:22 PM
Hey, I have a question about Red X. Is this the appropriate place to ask?
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 09, 2016, 10:54:25 PM
Hey, I have a question about Red X. Is this the appropriate place to ask?


I think it goes under 'Yeast'. 
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: pete b on June 09, 2016, 11:07:17 PM
I'm gonna refrain from any political comments but I get a kick out of watching the tangents some of these threads take. Of course since I'm a serial 'derailer', I'm part of the problem.   :)
Actually Jon I don't think this thread is derailed. The question was asked and answered and now we have been talking about why the answer is what it is. It would be pretty boring if the first person answered $10/hr and that was the thread.
BTW the best Munich Helles are made with Kolsch yeast.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 09, 2016, 11:11:25 PM
I'm gonna refrain from any political comments but I get a kick out of watching the tangents some of these threads take. Of course since I'm a serial 'derailer', I'm part of the problem.   :)
Actually Jon I don't think this thread is derailed. The question was asked and answered and now we have been talking about why the answer is what it is. It would be pretty boring if the first person answered $10/hr and that was the thread.
BTW the best Munich Helles are made with Kolsch yeast.


I don't disagree, Pete. I was kidding around. I think the thread walked the line but didn't get overtly poilitical.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: blair.streit on June 10, 2016, 04:18:25 AM
BTW the best Munich Helles are made with Kolsch yeast.
Yes. For optimal flavor I oxygenate my Helles at packaging time as well ;)
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: bengelbrau on June 10, 2016, 05:06:07 AM
I hope you all realize that you're going to be burned at the stake at the next inquisition?

Just sayin...
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: Stevie on June 10, 2016, 05:10:05 AM
I hope you all realize that you're going to be burned at the stake at the next inquisition?

Just sayin...
What do inquisitors make these days?
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: blair.streit on June 10, 2016, 08:20:35 AM
I hope you all realize that you're going to be burned at the stake at the next inquisition?

Just sayin...
If you think that was bad, you should've seen what went down when I told my boss that outsourcing software projects to China is a sure way to destroy productivity, quality and efficiency. There's a mob following me with pitchforks ;)
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: pete b on June 10, 2016, 11:28:20 AM
I'm gonna refrain from any political comments but I get a kick out of watching the tangents some of these threads take. Of course since I'm a serial 'derailer', I'm part of the problem.   :)
Actually Jon I don't think this thread is derailed. The question was asked and answered and now we have been talking about why the answer is what it is. It would be pretty boring if the first person answered $10/hr and that was the thread.
BTW the best Munich Helles are made with Kolsch yeast.


I don't disagree, Pete. I was kidding around. I think the thread walked the line but didn't get overtly poilitical.
I think a big part of whether or not it's OK to walk the line is whether it's done in a civil way or not. Getting a little political but politely might be better than being rude and personal about German brewing techniques.
BTW what ever happened to the rules about politics, race etc? I looked at them a couple weeks ago when someone brought up religion and couldn't find them here: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=32.0
Are there rules in two places?
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 10, 2016, 11:53:31 AM
I'm gonna refrain from any political comments but I get a kick out of watching the tangents some of these threads take. Of course since I'm a serial 'derailer', I'm part of the problem.   :)
Actually Jon I don't think this thread is derailed. The question was asked and answered and now we have been talking about why the answer is what it is. It would be pretty boring if the first person answered $10/hr and that was the thread.
BTW the best Munich Helles are made with Kolsch yeast.


I don't disagree, Pete. I was kidding around. I think the thread walked the line but didn't get overtly poilitical.
I think a big part of whether or not it's OK to walk the line is whether it's done in a civil way or not. Getting a little political but politely might be better than being rude and personal about German brewing techniques.
BTW what ever happened to the rules about politics, race etc? I looked at them a couple weeks ago when someone brought up religion and couldn't find them here: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=32.0
Are there rules in two places?


I agree, Pete. I didn't see anything offensive whatsoever. And FWIW I agree with the things you said. As for the rules, they could stand to be updated to specifically address politics, religion, etc. But the final (bold) paragraph I assume acts as the catch-all.
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: klickitat jim on June 10, 2016, 12:49:42 PM
Personal opinion:

I don't really want to see a bunch of politics on the forum. Having said that, "No Politics" is the most political thing one can say. Freedom of speech and whatnot... But this forum isn't really the public square, so we AHA members do have the right to regulate what's on our forum.

The trouble with just saying "no politics" is that in this country its hard sometimes to say what politics is. The government is involved in every facet of our lives, so it makes it hard at times to discuss something without being perceived as making a political statement. For example, im not sure nowadays that it would be appropriate to discuss how many bathrooms a tap room should have...

It seems to me that discussing beer and brewing related issues, even on the business side, should be allowed so long as candidates, officials and political ideologies are avoided, and that inflammatory comments are not allowed. A peaceful discussion about how much a brewery employee should get paid should not be banned. Or polite civil discussion of environmental impact of brewing, or ingredients issues, etc.

The bottom line, however, needs to be the advancement of homebrewing and preservation of this great forum. A healthy combo of being considerate and thick skinned might cure most ills.

Personal opinion
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: BrewingRover on June 10, 2016, 06:49:17 PM
I hope you all realize that you're going to be burned at the stake at the next inquisition?

Just sayin...
What do inquisitors make these days?

Not very much, but they get nice red uniforms.

(http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/0/05/NOBODY_EXPECTS_THE_SPANISH_INQUISITION!.jpg)
Title: Re: Starting wage for Cellar position?
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 13, 2016, 03:31:04 PM
I hope you all realize that you're going to be burned at the stake at the next inquisition?

Just sayin...
What do inquisitors make these days?

Depends on whether they get tips.