Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Visor on September 17, 2016, 12:54:34 PM

Title: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Visor on September 17, 2016, 12:54:34 PM
I'd like to hear opinions on which dry yeast would work better for my current batch of bock. The Wyeast pack I pitched into the starter last night turned out to be a total dud. What I have available is S-23, 34/70 and Mangrove Jacks California Lager. The S.G. of the wort is 1.079, I will do a 1 1/2 quart starter, and will be using Jamil & John's modified Narziss method. The recipe suggests using the s-23 but my experience thus far with that yeast leaves me with some concerns.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on September 17, 2016, 12:59:17 PM
34/70
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: reverseapachemaster on September 17, 2016, 03:35:24 PM
What are your concerns about S-23?
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Visor on September 17, 2016, 03:41:23 PM
   Sorry, early morning cranial flatulence - looking at my notes S-23 actually has worked well for me, unbelievable amount of yeast sludge in the bottom of the conical but almost none at all in the bottles and reasonable attenuation.
   Dave, could you please expound upon your preference for 34/70.
 
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Steve Ruch on September 17, 2016, 03:51:31 PM
S-189.
I recently received my second highest score ever in a competition with a helles bock fermented with it.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on September 17, 2016, 03:54:58 PM
Or you could give your starter more time. Decant it and add weaker wort. Even if you're brewing today you could pitch tomorrow morning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: majorvices on September 17, 2016, 03:57:14 PM
34/70 is the perfect bock dry yeast or any other German style lagers. there is not one that will perform better. S-189 would be my second choice.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Visor on September 17, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
   I brewed yesterday, the beer is okay for now in a 44 degree fridge. I pitched the yeast in the starter last night and now it is just sludge on the bottom of the container, in spite of having been shaken a couple of times. I'm thinking it is dead and planning on staying that way.
   I appreciate the suggestion of the s189, but I have none in stock, it's a 250 mile round trip to the nearest LHBS and I intend to get the ball rolling today. Besides, I've had enough windshield time lately.
   Thanks
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Philbrew on September 17, 2016, 04:15:05 PM
34/70
Yup.  34/70 is can't miss.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: denny on September 17, 2016, 04:19:52 PM
What are your concerns about S-23?

I found it to produce the worst results of any yeast I've ever used.  I'd describe it as disgustingly fruity.  John Palmer called is passion fruit wine cooler.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: brewinhard on September 17, 2016, 05:17:46 PM
What are your concerns about S-23?

Definitely NOT a lager yeast.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Philbrew on September 17, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
What are your concerns about S-23?

I found it to produce the worst results of any yeast I've ever used.  I'd describe it as disgustingly fruity.  John Palmer called is passion fruit wine cooler.
Ha!  Sounds like it would make a Kolsch yeast (at least the wine part).  ;)
Sorry, I'm cross-threading here.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Visor on September 17, 2016, 06:10:01 PM
  I went with the recommendation and used 34/70, now if it doesn't work out I can blame y'all ;). Obviously s-23 isn't very popular with this bunch.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: brewinhard on September 17, 2016, 06:26:14 PM
  I went with the recommendation and used 34/70, now if it doesn't work out I can blame y'all ;). Obviously s-23 isn't very popular with this bunch.

Its gross.  :)
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Philbrew on September 17, 2016, 06:31:26 PM
  I went with the recommendation and used 34/70, now if it doesn't work out I can blame y'all ;) . Obviously s-23 isn't very popular with this bunch.
34/70 is fool-proof, which is why it's my favorite yeast.  Even I can't eff it up.  ;D
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on September 17, 2016, 09:43:13 PM
   Sorry, early morning cranial flatulence - looking at my notes S-23 actually has worked well for me, unbelievable amount of yeast sludge in the bottom of the conical but almost none at all in the bottles and reasonable attenuation.
   Dave, could you please expound upon your preference for 34/70.

I could be wrong but as I understand it, both S-23 and Mangrove Jack's California Lager yeasts are probably better suited to the California Common / "steam beer" style than to a bock.  W-34/70 is a good old reliable lager yeast that has made great beer for me and for many others.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: brewinhard on September 17, 2016, 11:08:08 PM
I never heard of S-23 as a steam beer yeast. But I guess it could work in that profile if kept cool.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Visor on September 17, 2016, 11:51:25 PM
   NOTHING is foolproof. I pitched it in the starter about 7 hours ago and have a few bubbles rising in the wort, a tiny bit of foam on the surface and a bubble through the airlock about every 7 seconds, definitely the slowest yeast to take off I can recall. We'll see what it's doing tomorrow morning. And yes I know, a watched pot never boils.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Philbrew on September 18, 2016, 01:19:10 AM
   NOTHING is foolproof. I pitched it in the starter about 7 hours ago and have a few bubbles rising in the wort, a tiny bit of foam on the surface and a bubble through the airlock about every 7 seconds, definitely the slowest yeast to take off I can recall. We'll see what it's doing tomorrow morning. And yes I know, a watched pot never boils.
Hey, that's cookin' right along for a lager.  Patience my friend, it's gonna be really good beer.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Visor on September 18, 2016, 01:05:53 PM
She's a chugging along nicely this morning, ready to get to work. Unfortunately, patience has never been my strong suit but it's definitely required if one wants do brew lagers.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Steve Ruch on September 18, 2016, 04:06:01 PM
What are your concerns about S-23?

I found it to produce the worst results of any yeast I've ever used.  I'd describe it as disgustingly fruity.  John Palmer called is passion fruit wine cooler.

So, the perfect yeast to make one of those fruity alcopop "wine coolers"?
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: majorvices on September 18, 2016, 04:10:09 PM
   NOTHING is foolproof. I pitched it in the starter about 7 hours ago and have a few bubbles rising in the wort, a tiny bit of foam on the surface and a bubble through the airlock about every 7 seconds, definitely the slowest yeast to take off I can recall. We'll see what it's doing tomorrow morning. And yes I know, a watched pot never boils.

You should not make a starter with dry yeast. Just pitch more yeast. Dry yeasts already have their glycogen reserves stored up and making a starter can cause them to use those reserves if the starter is not large enough. For 5 gallons of 1.050 wort 2 packs would have been all you need. If you made a starter with one pack in say, 2 L of wort you likely did more damage than good.

Regardless, a 7 hour lag time on a lager is pretty damn good so not sure why you would be stressing that. Brewing in a commercial environment daily I usually have 14-24 hour lags on my lagers.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Visor on September 19, 2016, 03:22:04 PM
   That is interesting, and a bit different than the response I received a while back to the question of whether there was any downside to doing yeast starters with dry yeast, other than the time and planning involved.
   Something I'm struggling to understand is why our brewing yeasts don't behave like almost all other organisms. It is almost a universal constant that organisms will reproduce up to the limit of the carrying capacity of their environment. If they start with a smaller population when initially entering a new environment they will take longer to reach capacity, but will eventually do so. What are the specific factors that make this so problematic with brewing yeast? Hopefully any responses will not be too far over my head.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: brewinhard on September 19, 2016, 03:47:47 PM
    What are the specific factors that make this so problematic with brewing yeast? Hopefully any responses will not be too far over my head.

Major is only responding about dry yeast and how they are prepared in the lab before packaging. Liquid yeast does pretty much work in this fashion.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: denny on September 19, 2016, 04:06:23 PM
   That is interesting, and a bit different than the response I received a while back to the question of whether there was any downside to doing yeast starters with dry yeast, other than the time and planning involved.
   Something I'm struggling to understand is why our brewing yeasts don't behave like almost all other organisms. It is almost a universal constant that organisms will reproduce up to the limit of the carrying capacity of their environment. If they start with a smaller population when initially entering a new environment they will take longer to reach capacity, but will eventually do so. What are the specific factors that make this so problematic with brewing yeast? Hopefully any responses will not be too far over my head.

The issue is that for best beer quality, you want the yeast to replicate only 3-4 times.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Visor on September 19, 2016, 11:35:53 PM
  Thanks Denny. I get the fact that we don't want too many generations of reproduction if we wish to maintain beer quality and yeast performance. What I don't get is how we have available year in and year out consistent yeast strains that obviously are uncounted generations descended from their original progenitors. If there is so much genetic degradation after 3 or 4 generations that beer quality is compromised, how do the folks who provide us with yeast manage to overcome this instability?
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: majorvices on September 20, 2016, 01:14:16 AM
  Thanks Denny. I get the fact that we don't want too many generations of reproduction if we wish to maintain beer quality and yeast performance. What I don't get is how we have available year in and year out consistent yeast strains that obviously are uncounted generations descended from their original progenitors. If there is so much genetic degradation after 3 or 4 generations that beer quality is compromised, how do the folks who provide us with yeast manage to overcome this instability?

You are putting a lot more stress on your yeast during fermentation than what a lab does when it replicates a strain, and they have pure cultures to fall back on. Even then, some mutation probably does happen over time.

But even that isn't what denny was talking about. He is saying that you don't want the yeast growth to be too great during the fermentation.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: Philbrew on September 20, 2016, 03:30:16 PM
  Thanks Denny. I get the fact that we don't want too many generations of reproduction if we wish to maintain beer quality and yeast performance. What I don't get is how we have available year in and year out consistent yeast strains that obviously are uncounted generations descended from their original progenitors. If there is so much genetic degradation after 3 or 4 generations that beer quality is compromised, how do the folks who provide us with yeast manage to overcome this instability?

You are putting a lot more stress on your yeast during fermentation than what a lab does when it replicates a strain, and they have pure cultures to fall back on. Even then, some mutation probably does happen over time.

But even that isn't what denny was talking about. He is saying that you don't want the yeast growth to be too great during the fermentation.
Is that because you want to initially pitch enough yeast to be sure to win the yeast/bacteria replication war or is there  some other reason?
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 03:41:31 PM
  Thanks Denny. I get the fact that we don't want too many generations of reproduction if we wish to maintain beer quality and yeast performance. What I don't get is how we have available year in and year out consistent yeast strains that obviously are uncounted generations descended from their original progenitors. If there is so much genetic degradation after 3 or 4 generations that beer quality is compromised, how do the folks who provide us with yeast manage to overcome this instability?

The lab has a master culture and subsequent cultures are made from that.  They replenish the master occasionally. 
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 03:42:25 PM
I could be wrong but as I understand it, both S-23 and Mangrove Jack's California Lager yeasts are probably better suited to the California Common / "steam beer" style than to a bock.  W-34/70 is a good old reliable lager yeast that has made great beer for me and for many others.

Dave, I'm not saying you're wrong, but why would those be better suited to steam beer?
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on September 20, 2016, 03:54:13 PM
I could be wrong but as I understand it, both S-23 and Mangrove Jack's California Lager yeasts are probably better suited to the California Common / "steam beer" style than to a bock.  W-34/70 is a good old reliable lager yeast that has made great beer for me and for many others.

Dave, I'm not saying you're wrong, but why would those be better suited to steam beer?

I dunno... what does the term "California Lager" mean to you?

I've never used S-23 so maybe that's just another crap yeast that should not be sold, that's what I've gathered.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: denny on September 20, 2016, 03:56:46 PM
I could be wrong but as I understand it, both S-23 and Mangrove Jack's California Lager yeasts are probably better suited to the California Common / "steam beer" style than to a bock.  W-34/70 is a good old reliable lager yeast that has made great beer for me and for many others.

Dave, I'm not saying you're wrong, but why would those be better suited to steam beer?

I dunno... what does the term "California Lager" mean to you?

I've never used S-23 so maybe that's just another crap yeast that should not be sold, that's what I've gathered.

I guess I was thinking of the S-23.  I'm not of the opinion that any lager yeast fermented warm can be used for common, but I'm also not an expert on it.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: ynotbrusum on September 21, 2016, 01:40:47 AM
I used S-23 in a recent Tropical Stout - turned out nice and tropical fruity.
Title: Re: Wich is the better bock yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on September 21, 2016, 03:34:38 AM
I used S-23 in a recent Tropical Stout - turned out nice and tropical fruity.

Bingo, FTW.