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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: homoeccentricus on September 25, 2016, 04:44:34 PM

Title: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 25, 2016, 04:44:34 PM
I'm planning to ferment my next brew - an IPA (this time without dry hopping to keep things simple) in a keg (which I'm already doing now) and a spunding valve. Has anyone done this? I understand that spunding valves work well with lagers because fermentation is slower, but may be more difficult with faster fermenting top cropping yeast. The idea would be to ferment the IPA in a keg with a blow-off into a bucket, and after 2 days or so, depending on the speed of the fermentation, close up the keg and add a spunding valve. It may be tricky to determine when it is the right moment to add the valve? Then the pressure should build up to something like 15 psi, correct?

After fermentation is finished, the carbonated beer would be transferred under CO2 pressure to a serving keg. In order for the flocculated yeast not to block the transfer I will use an OUT tube of which two inches or so have been sawed off.

I would get the spunding valve in Germany. Either this one: http://www.malzmuehle.eu/Profi-pressure-relief-system--wall-mountable-Kolonne-pressure-relief-system-Spundhund-and-Kolonne-Keg-manometer-for-home-brewing-Automatic-constant-pressure-relief-valve/beer-brew-beer-beer-accessories-nrw-malt-yeast-hops-homebrewing-automatic-constant-pressure-relief-valve.html (http://www.malzmuehle.eu/Profi-pressure-relief-system--wall-mountable-Kolonne-pressure-relief-system-Spundhund-and-Kolonne-Keg-manometer-for-home-brewing-Automatic-constant-pressure-relief-valve/beer-brew-beer-beer-accessories-nrw-malt-yeast-hops-homebrewing-automatic-constant-pressure-relief-valve.html)

or this one:

Obviously filtering with gelatin or dry-hopping would make things more complicated, but I'm not going to do that for now.

Comments?

[EDIT: fixed link] (http://www.malzmuehle.eu/Profi-pressure-relief-system--wall-mountable-Kolonne-pressure-relief-system-Spundhund-and-Kolonne-Keg-manometer-for-home-brewing-Automatic-constant-pressure-relief-valve/beer-brew-beer-beer-accessories-nrw-malt-yeast-hops-homebrewing-automatic-constant-pressure-relief-valve-514.html[/url)
Title: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: Stevie on September 25, 2016, 04:55:37 PM
Should work fine,  but you want more like 30psi at room temp.

Two inches off the tube is a lot. Start with about an inch and see how that works for you. You should use a tubing cutter for this, not a saw. Tubing cutter will leave a cleaner cut.

Also, your links are identical.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 25, 2016, 05:11:36 PM
Should work fine,  but you want more like 30psi at room temp.

Two inches off the tube is a lot. Start with about an inch and see how that works for you. You should use a tubing cutter for this, not a saw. Tubing cutter will leave a cleaner cut.

Also, your links are identical.

- Thanks, fixed the link.
- Can you point me into the direction of a good cutter that's internationally available?
- 30 psi works with those German spunding valves - they go to 3 bar so should be ok.

[EDIT: oops, meant to ask, why is 30 psi better?]
Title: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: Stevie on September 25, 2016, 05:13:43 PM
Here is one on Amazon
Ridgid 32975 1/8-Inch to 5/8-Inch Close Quarters Tubing Cutter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LDGNCU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_Bwa6xbEPZYA49

30 is "better" for the same reason 12 is better than 6 at 40°. You will only get about 2/3 the co2 you are expecting at 15psi
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: tonyccopeland on September 26, 2016, 05:45:02 AM
I have tried fermentation in a keg twice with a cut tube and the tube gets clogged.  Anyone have any tips on how to prevent this problem?  I have even tried pushing co2 down the serving disconnect without success.

-Tony

Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 26, 2016, 12:48:16 PM
I have this gizmo: http://www.homebrewing.org/Corny-Keg-Dip-Tube-Screen_p_2091.html

But it's for hop particles, don't know whether it will work with yeast.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 26, 2016, 01:01:10 PM
By the way, this is what I used as a reference: http://www.terifahrendorf.com/Closed-Pressurized-Fermenatation.pdf  (sic) - it's originally from 1990 or something like that :) And I quote:

"After pressure testing, remove the long OUT tube from one of the Corneliuses. This Cornelius will
be your fermenter. Carefully cut about two inches off the bottom of this tube with the hacksaw. To
avoid squashing the tube while cutting it, stick the dowel in the end to support it. The other
Cornelius will be your serving tank."


So two inches. Maybe that does the trick?
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 28, 2016, 10:04:12 AM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/86a573f89bd3b5a3a1d1896f64d3b879.jpg)
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: tonyccopeland on September 28, 2016, 11:17:43 AM
That looks sweet with the stainless quick disconnect.

-Tony

Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 28, 2016, 12:02:10 PM
Deutsche Gründlichkeit  8)
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: erockrph on September 28, 2016, 12:53:42 PM
I haven't really bothered with cutting my dip tubes in my fermenting kegs. I just blow off the trub under pressure, then transfer to the serving keg. One caveat is that I haven't done any brews with dry hops in the fermenting keg, so that may cause an issue with clogs.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 28, 2016, 01:13:56 PM
That's why my first experiment will be with an IPA without dry-hopping. One step at a time. "New World IPA" recipe from Gordon Strong. No dry-hopping, no crystal malts, whirlpooling @0 :)
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: tonyccopeland on September 28, 2016, 01:16:55 PM
Deutsche Gründlichkeit  8)
Efficient indeed.  I naturally carb kegs when my kegerator is full and have overcarbed more than once, I may have to add the parts for one of these to my wish list.

-Tony

Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 28, 2016, 02:23:07 PM
I just blow off the trub under pressure, then transfer to the serving keg.

You simply use a picknick tap and more pressure than you would use to transfer to the serving keg?
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: erockrph on September 28, 2016, 05:28:04 PM
I just blow off the trub under pressure, then transfer to the serving keg.

You simply use a picknick tap and more pressure than you would use to transfer to the serving keg?
Bingo. I put a picnic tap on the fermenter and dial up the PSI until beer and gunk flows out. I open the tap in a few short bursts once it gets flowing to blow out most of the crud. Once it looks clear coming out of the picnic tap I drop the pressure down to about 2 PSI and connect it to the serving keg. I put my spunding valve on the serving keg and loosen it until I hear just a faint, steady hiss. This way you're filling under pressure to keep foaming to a minimum, but you don't need to constantly pull the valve on the keg to keep the transfer flowing.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 28, 2016, 06:33:06 PM
Thanks, Eric. I assume you use the spunding valve I the fermenter as well? I'm a bit worried using it with ales. Could be that I need to put it on the fermenter in less than 48 hours, right?
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: erockrph on September 29, 2016, 02:47:28 AM
Thanks, Eric. I assume you use the spunding valve I the fermenter as well? I'm a bit worried using it with ales. Could be that I need to put it on the fermenter in less than 48 hours, right?
You definitely want to bleed off the CO2 in the early part of fermentation, I think. I leave it as loose as it goes for the first few days of fermentation of a normal gravity beer (longer for big beers), then cinch it down at the tail end of fermentation. I've never really shot for full carbonation simply from fermentation, although I'm sure it can be done easily. I'm mainly using it as a pressure-release valve.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: beersk on September 29, 2016, 01:17:45 PM
Should work fine,  but you want more like 30psi at room temp.

Two inches off the tube is a lot. Start with about an inch and see how that works for you. You should use a tubing cutter for this, not a saw. Tubing cutter will leave a cleaner cut.

Also, your links are identical.
Don't cut your dip tube! Just bend it. I cut a couple and regret it. And, Steve, I used a saw and for a the longest time, I had weird/off tasting beers and I couldn't figure out what the issue was. Finally realized it was probably the tube where I cut it with the saw; ie, not clean cuts and bacteria hidden in there. Now, I just bend the dip tube so it sits an inch or two off the bottom of the keg.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on September 29, 2016, 01:35:38 PM
OK, now we have one cut off, one bend, and one blow the gunk out. Other suggestions? :)
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 10, 2016, 07:53:06 PM
One more question: does anyone use an in to in connection as well when transferring the beer? What's the procedure/advantage?
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: FlipMasterFlash on October 11, 2016, 01:40:48 PM
I cut a few of my dip tubes but used a tubing cutter and then a file to remove any burr on the dip tube.  I've had no issues but I'd expect bending the dip tube would work equally well.

Unsure what you mean by 'in to in connection'... To transfer between kegs I just have a short jumper which connects 'out' to 'out' (ie - the dip tubes on both kegs).

I've fermented a few dozen batches in kegs and do a closed transfer and haven't run into any issues or problems.  Like others mentioned I just use a picnic tap to get rid of the crud before I transfer, was surprised how quickly I get to clear beer when I do a good cold crash.

I've tried a few different methods for dry hopping when brewing in kegs but haven't settled on my favorite method.  Right now my preference is to put the hops in the serving keg using something like this: http://stainlessbrewing.com/Dry-Hopper-with-twist-cap-_p_155.html

Thing I haven't tried is the spunding valve but am quite curious and will likely end up getting a one before long.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: Philbrew on October 12, 2016, 04:03:27 AM
OK, now I have to ask a probably stupid question.  Why do you want to ferment in a keg with a spunding valve?  Why not just carb with CO2 from a tank?  I'm not being snarcy, I really do want to understand this.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 12, 2016, 06:01:05 AM
So as to have a closed system where wort/beer is never exposed to oxygen on the cold side. Plus natural carbonation, which is supposed to give a finer texture. Not sure whether that is true, but I'll find out.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 12, 2016, 06:03:03 AM
Unsure what you mean by 'in to in connection'... To transfer between kegs I just have a short jumper which connects 'out' to 'out' (ie - the dip tubes on both kegs).

Same thing, jumper that connects 'in' to 'in', to regulate CO2 pressure. Never mind, read something about it somewhere but now don't remember where. I'll just use the gas tank.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: FlipMasterFlash on October 12, 2016, 01:18:19 PM
Why do you want to ferment in a keg with a spunding valve?
Perhaps someone can comment in more detail but the belief is that fermenting under pressure reduces ester output from the yeast thus you can choose to ferment warmer (and faster) without risking the esters usually associated with doing so.

While I'm interested in that part of it I'm also interested in reduced throughput time via having carbed beer when fermentation is done.  Know I can carb quicker by using higher pressure or shaking the keg but that is screwing around I'd be happy to avoid.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: dilluh98 on October 12, 2016, 03:16:00 PM
So as to have a closed system where wort/beer is never exposed to oxygen on the cold side. Plus natural carbonation, which is supposed to give a finer texture. Not sure whether that is true, but I'll find out.

If you remember your bottling days, I think there is something to this. I've noticed that most of my beers have a "finer" carbonation quality than beer I've had that I know is force carbed. I don't necessarily think it's any better or worse, but it can be different. And it's not every beer, but many of them.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 08:31:42 PM
So as to have a closed system where wort/beer is never exposed to oxygen on the cold side. Plus natural carbonation, which is supposed to give a finer texture. Not sure whether that is true, but I'll find out.

If you remember your bottling days, I think there is something to this. I've noticed that most of my beers have a "finer" carbonation quality than beer I've had that I know is force carbed. I don't necessarily think it's any better or worse, but it can be different. And it's not every beer, but many of them.

Its due to the nature of co2 coming OUT(yeast excretion) of the solution instead of trying to get INTO (force carbonation)solution, and it certainly makes a difference.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 12, 2016, 09:10:06 PM
So as to have a closed system where wort/beer is never exposed to oxygen on the cold side. Plus natural carbonation, which is supposed to give a finer texture. Not sure whether that is true, but I'll find out.

If you remember your bottling days, I think there is something to this. I've noticed that most of my beers have a "finer" carbonation quality than beer I've had that I know is force carbed. I don't necessarily think it's any better or worse, but it can be different. And it's not every beer, but many of them.

Its due to the nature of co2 coming OUT(yeast excretion) of the solution instead of trying to get INTO (force carbonation)solution, and it certainly makes a difference.

Not sure I follow you on the in vs. out.  The CO2 has to go into the solution in order to form bubbles when it comes out.  The yeast don't magically cause carbonation.  Whether you're creating pressure by using a spunding valve or by using a CO2 tank and regulator, it's the pressure that causes the gas to go into solution.

Perhaps the gradual build up of pressure from natural carbonation, or the likelihood that the gas has been in solution longer, cause the a finer carbonation.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: narvin on October 12, 2016, 09:43:49 PM
If you believe you're getting oxidation when transferring to the keg, some ascorbic acid should work wonders for that (and may make your IPA taste even more "juicy").

Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 12, 2016, 10:01:17 PM
If you believe you're getting oxidation when transferring to the keg, some ascorbic acid should work wonders for that (and may make your IPA taste even more "juicy").





Been doing that for several months now. I feel like there's a benefit there.
Title: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 11:00:55 PM
Anyone who uses a corny keg can not actually purge a keg properly.  The proper way to purge a keg is a series of vacuum and purges. Unfortunately the corny keg can't withstand the proper pressures needed for this.   Ascorbic at kegging with an improper purge is going to potentially facilitate Fenton reactions. Research carbonyls for reference materials on this.


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Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 12, 2016, 11:14:04 PM
Anyone who uses a corny keg can not actually purge a keg properly.  The proper way to purge a keg is a series of vacuum and purges. Unfortunately the corny keg can't withstand the proper pressures needed for this.   Ascorbic at kegging with an improper purge is going to potentially facilitate Fenton reactions. Research carbonyls for reference materials on this.


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Maybe I don't fully understand - I thought Fenton reactions were tied more to iron and copper ions ?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2008.tb00318.x/pdf


There are many references in brewing literature to some breweries using ascorbic as an antioxidant in beer. You're saying it's more about the inability to fully purge the corny before using?
Title: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 11:23:38 PM
Ascorbic is a known super oxidizer. So the improper purge is going to hurt you.  Seriously the simplest thing would be to fill keg with Sanitizer push it out. Then naturally carb in the keg.  Yeast is natures best antioxidant. Metal isn't the only things that can cause these reactions. Cleaners and sanitizers do as well.


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Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 12, 2016, 11:29:59 PM
Ascorbic is a known super oxidizer. So the improper purge is going to hurt you.  Seriously the simplest thing would be to fill keg with Sanitizer push it out. Then naturally carb in the keg.  Yeast is natures best antioxidant. Metal isn't the only things that can cause these reactions. Cleaners and sanitizers do as well.


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I do push out with sanitizer. The ascorbic has been intended as added insurance.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: natebrews on October 12, 2016, 11:30:45 PM
If you are going to naturally carbonate with yeast, is it really even that important purge the keg well?  The yeast are very good at scavenging up oxygen, so would it be sufficient to just blow out the keg with some CO2 (or just no purge)? 

For completeness, when I naturally carbonate in a keg I usually bring 250mL of wort up to high krausen and then dump that in.  After that is all done I adjust with forced carbonation.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 11:38:06 PM
Ascorbic is a known super oxidizer. So the improper purge is going to hurt you.  Seriously the simplest thing would be to fill keg with Sanitizer push it out. Then naturally carb in the keg.  Yeast is natures best antioxidant. Metal isn't the only things that can cause these reactions. Cleaners and sanitizers do as well.


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I do push out with sanitizer. The ascorbic has been intended as added insurance.
How do you add ascorbic, after you push out? If so sadly it's a moot point once you break that seal.


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Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: The Beerery on October 12, 2016, 11:39:03 PM
If you are going to naturally carbonate with yeast, is it really even that important purge the keg well?  The yeast are very good at scavenging up oxygen, so would it be sufficient to just blow out the keg with some CO2 (or just no purge)? 

For completeness, when I naturally carbonate in a keg I usually bring 250mL of wort up to high krausen and then dump that in.  After that is all done I adjust with forced carbonation.
I would because even though that is all true. I want the least amount of oxygen in contact with my beer for the shortest possible time.


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Title: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 11:50:55 PM
My issue with your method of communication is it is completely absolute. No step will affect an improvement if all steps aren't followed. This absolutism along with general rude comments turns me off from taking anything you say seriously.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: The Beerery on October 13, 2016, 12:39:12 AM
Sounds like you have some issues you need to work though then. I wish you luck in that! 

Beer is the sum of all parts. Not one. I don't make the rules on this. The answers are usually pretty black and white. If you doubt my answers I throughly encourage you to do research on the subject. 


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Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: Stevie on October 13, 2016, 12:47:37 AM
And he responds with a personal attack.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 13, 2016, 03:37:00 AM
My method would be to ferment in a keg with a blow off attached to the in line. Then, after a couple of days replace the blow off by a spunding valve. Then fill the serving keg with sanitizer to the rim and push it out with co2. And then transfer the carbonated beer to the serving keg.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: erockrph on October 18, 2016, 03:22:52 AM
My method would be to ferment in a keg with a blow off attached to the in line. Then, after a couple of days replace the blow off by a spunding valve. Then fill the serving keg with sanitizer to the rim and push it out with co2. And then transfer the carbonated beer to the serving keg.
I leave the spunding valve as loose as it will go while still maintaining a light seal for the start of fermentation. It's basically just acting like an airlock at that point. As fermentation winds down I tighten it up to hold in some of the final CO2 from fermentation. I'll force carb the rest of the way from there if needed.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 18, 2016, 10:46:45 AM
My spunding valve cannot be adjusted. It only has a prv.
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: zwiller on October 18, 2016, 03:12:13 PM
I am at a loss.  Spunding a beer that gets dry hopped just seems redundant.  So you're carbing prior to dry hop, then later cracking keg to add hops?  While I think spunding is a very good idea to reduce exposure to O2, I am not sure will really make a large difference/improve an IPA.  It might keep it fresher longer tho.  Many other things can be done to improve IPA and 2 of the best recently for me have been polyclar in whirlpool and crash cooling prior to dry hop.  That said, my IPA's dry hop fades after about 3 weeks.  I plan to try ascorbic and see how that goes.  I do expect it work and if I get another week or so great.  A keg of IPA lasts about a month at best at my house. 
Title: Re: fermenting IPA with spunding valve
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 18, 2016, 03:33:33 PM
I am at a loss.  Spunding a beer that gets dry hopped just seems redundant.  So you're carbing prior to dry hop, then later cracking keg to add hops?  While I think spunding is a very good idea to reduce exposure to O2, I am not sure will really make a large difference/improve an IPA.  It might keep it fresher longer tho.  Many other things can be done to improve IPA and 2 of the best recently for me have been polyclar in whirlpool and crash cooling prior to dry hop.  That said, my IPA's dry hop fades after about 3 weeks.  I plan to try ascorbic and see how that goes.  I do expect it work and if I get another week or so great.  A keg of IPA lasts about a month at best at my house.
You have a point there. In the meanwhile I am brewing not an IPA but an American Blonde without dry-hopping. I postponed the dry-hopping complications to another brew.  Anyone have any good experience with the combination of spunding and dry-hopping?