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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 02:04:27 am

Title: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 02:04:27 am
Has anyone tried it?  If it turns out like the description/stats hit it may be my house saison strain.  Faster fermenter like French strains, more interesting flavor profile like the Belgian strains but doesn't stall out like those do.  So I am going to give it a shot on this red saison I made 5 hrs ago.

BJCP question - if a table strength red malt forward saison has a bubblegum banana aroma and flavor does it crash land in competition based on 2 things - 1 Being red, malty, and lemony (I used lemon peel) and 2 having banana and bubblegum aromas
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: kramerog on September 30, 2016, 07:29:02 am
IIRC, OYL stalled on me.  Anyway, I've decided to stick with DuPont.

Are you using Red X malt?  If the beer fits under dark saison, I don't see why malty would be an issue except that malty tends to be the enemy of dry.

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Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 07:40:12 am
I did a partigyle...

#20 RedX
#3 8oz Munich 7L
#1 8oz Caramunich 45L

for 2 amber beers

"Batch Sparged" again for a 3rd beer the Table saison

I added
#1 12oz Toasted Flaked Oats
#1 8oz  Amber Candy 10.8%

Finished at 1.052
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: porterpounder on September 30, 2016, 07:57:17 am
The red, malty, lemony may do fine if it finishes dry, but with the banana and bubblegum if noticeable will probably take a hit.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 08:03:01 am
The red, malty, lemony may do fine if it finishes dry, but with the banana and bubblegum if noticeable will probably take a hit.


My thought, too. Color isn't really an issue with saison, but the banana character would probably get it dinged.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: mrybka on September 30, 2016, 08:05:13 am
I just did a batch with the Saisonstein Monster.   Used 1 pack for 4.5 gal.   Started at 1.050 and 68 degrees (my ambient).  Went up to 72 degrees by itself.   Seemed to start a little slow and airlock was never bubbling super crazy.   I just checked it after 10 days and gravity is 1.002.  Took a taste and it is just how I thought it should be.   Going to dry hop before bottling.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 08:43:41 am
I have never tasted a saison with bubblegum or banana but Omega sure does describe this strain as having it.  Which I don't know I have ever heard of that as a positive aroma or flavor in a saison.

I sent them an email asking about more information on their tasting notes from this strain.  As well as asking them there opinion if it matches style guidelines.  That may have came across as a dickish homebrewer, but I will take my chances.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 09:16:33 am
From Omega
"...I'm actually a little surprised that the guidelines don't mention bubblegum.  The Dupont strain (and the beer itself) is known to have a pronounced bubblegum character.  Our hybrid strain tastes much more like the Dupont strain than the other parent, French Saison, it just performs much more reliably than Dupont.  The bubblegum produced by our hybrid is definitely noticeable..."
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: brewinhard on September 30, 2016, 09:52:01 am
From Omega
"...I'm actually a little surprised that the guidelines don't mention bubblegum.  The Dupont strain (and the beer itself) is known to have a pronounced bubblegum character.  Our hybrid strain tastes much more like the Dupont strain than the other parent, French Saison, it just performs much more reliably than Dupont.  The bubblegum produced by our hybrid is definitely noticeable..."

I totally disagree. I have never gotten bubblegum from a good (read fairly fresh, at least as one can get) Dupont bottle.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 10:05:17 am
From Omega
"...I'm actually a little surprised that the guidelines don't mention bubblegum.  The Dupont strain (and the beer itself) is known to have a pronounced bubblegum character.  Our hybrid strain tastes much more like the Dupont strain than the other parent, French Saison, it just performs much more reliably than Dupont.  The bubblegum produced by our hybrid is definitely noticeable..."

I totally disagree. I have never gotten bubblegum from a good (read fairly fresh, at least as one can get) Dupont bottle.

Then we are on the same page.  I asked them to put the esters to a scale compared to hefe strains and I got this

"...I would say less banana than a hefe but more bubblegum.  Along with the typical saison fruitiness and a touch of spiciness..."
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 10:16:34 am
I haven't used it but I remember a couple brewers posting that they liked it. That bubblegum character has to be temp dependent to a big extent. Go too warm and you're likely to get more of it. I'll bet if you hold 67F-ish for a couple days, then let it rise slowly to the low-mid 70s, you'll keep it in check. Saison strains (and Belgians in general) are pretty temp sensitive. I'll be curious to see what you think.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: brewinhard on September 30, 2016, 11:01:28 am
I haven't used it but I remember a couple brewers posting that they liked it. That bubblegum character has to be temp dependent to a big extent. Go too warm and you're likely to get more of it. I'll bet if you hold 67F-ish for a couple days, then let it rise slowly to the low-mid 70s, you'll keep it in check. Saison strains (and Belgians in general) are pretty temp sensitive. I'll be curious to see what you think.

Agreed. I totally get it in warmer ferment temps with 3787 and 1214 (iso-amyl acetate).
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 30, 2016, 11:05:24 am
I haven't used it but I remember a couple brewers posting that they liked it. That bubblegum character has to be temp dependent to a big extent. Go too warm and you're likely to get more of it. I'll bet if you hold 67F-ish for a couple days, then let it rise slowly to the low-mid 70s, you'll keep it in check. Saison strains (and Belgians in general) are pretty temp sensitive. I'll be curious to see what you think.

Agreed. I totally get it in warmer ferment temps with 3787 and 1214 (iso-amyl acetate).



I went too warm with 1214 the first time I used it - it had more banana than any hefe I've ever had, not in a remotely good way. A total banana bomb that overpowered every aspect of the beer. It's crazy temp sensitive. Great if used right, though.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: kramerog on September 30, 2016, 01:26:05 pm
Re BJCP question, if you have enough lemon character than beer should go as spice, herb, vegetable beer in category 30A.   
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 03:10:58 pm
I don't think it will be a strong lemon character.  It is only 2oz of lemon peels at flameout, I don't think that will take it to a 30A.  But time will tell.  I will have to taste it to make that decision.  But that is a good point kramerog
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: brewinhard on September 30, 2016, 03:51:41 pm
Re BJCP question, if you have enough lemon character than beer should go as spice, herb, vegetable beer in category 30A.

Oh boy, here we go again!   ;)
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: brewinhard on September 30, 2016, 03:53:02 pm
I don't think it will be a strong lemon character.  It is only 2oz of lemon peels at flameout, I don't think that will take it to a 30A.  But time will tell.  I will have to taste it to make that decision.  But that is a good point kramerog

Were they fresh lemon peels or the LHBS kind from the bag?

I only added the zest of 1 lemon at 5 minutes and it is fairly prominent in my saison in both aroma and flavor. Not even close to a 1/4 of an oz by far.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 04:31:18 pm
Fresh lemon peels

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Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 05:59:39 pm
... ru-roh... i guess I will see

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Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 06:00:13 pm
So far this is what it looks like
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161001/e95c29d6726ff32940b44a3c04b87ba1.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161001/ca635d46124583d24e7aab44d7b3bb99.jpg)

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Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: natebrews on September 30, 2016, 06:12:27 pm
what was the cottage cheese dosing rate that you used?
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: 69franx on September 30, 2016, 06:21:12 pm
what was the cottage cheese dosing rate that you used?
Lol

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Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on September 30, 2016, 07:14:57 pm
what was the cottage cheese dosing rate that you used?
Ha! Right!?! I don't know what to think about it.

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Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 05, 2016, 08:58:45 am
So I pitched at 65F I put it in my ferm chamber at 68F and that is where it is sitting now.  Bubblegum is there but faint, its a very soft smelling/tasting beer.  Malty and lemony.  My wife think it tastes more like wine than beer.  My guess is because it is pretty well attenuated.  Nothing crazy, just 82%.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 05, 2016, 09:04:17 am
  Malty and lemony.  My wife think it tastes more like wine than beer.


Saison strains often have a tart, white wine like character. One of the things I love about saison.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 12, 2016, 10:46:03 am
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161012/de8935ee268212fd3325e7fceed10737.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161012/766b4050ba697659c6aed6c54e56827f.jpg)

I think something went wrong... I think I may be plagued with an infection.  I smell plastics and taste a ton of fruity, spicy, tart flavors... and I think it may be masking the plasticity flavor.  I am about to go take a sample up to my LHBS and see what Bill thinks.

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Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 12, 2016, 11:19:02 am
Perhaps you're smelling the plastic cup.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 12, 2016, 03:43:08 pm
I thought so too at first,  So I poured it over to a glass mason jar, and took it up to LHBS and after talking for a while we are thinking it is my tap water.  This is the 2nd batch to have this plasticy aroma flavor.  This is the strongest by far, but this brew is gone.  I am trying to decide to dump it or not.  I went ahead and bought the replacement ingredients to make another batch and the distilled water to make it.  So I will see if that makes the difference.  2 batches I have ever made with my filtered water has had this character.  My 1st Dunkelweizen, and this batch.  I figured after getting my water tested at my LHBS I would give it a go with the Cl being relatively low and the rest of the mineral levels being "do-able" with cutting it 60:40 My Tap:RO on my 3rd beer for the day.  Well come to find out his water test kit needs a buffer added to the testing water if it is higher in alkalinity.  Which the rep that sold him the kit failed to inform him, and he was at a trade show when he picked up the testing kit.  So because I have crazy Indiana water come to find out, the test was a bad test.  So as of right now we are blaming the water...  Any other ideas brew buds?
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 12, 2016, 03:48:16 pm
Could be chlorine or chloramines.  I think chloramines are not removed by a charcoal filter.

You could use campden tablets.  That should do the trick.  OR bottled water of some sort.
Title: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 04:09:25 pm
Martin can correct me if I'm wrong, but from my research chloramines can be removed by charcoal, but it needs a very long contact time. I had an issue once when I used municipal water, I started pulling my water crazy slow and never had an issue again. By crazy slow I mean a trickle of about 1 gallon per 10min to give maximum contact time.

All that said, if I want back to municipal water, I'd use campden and call it good.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 12, 2016, 04:23:39 pm
see that is the thing... I used a 2stage charcoal filter from a hose in and 5 gallons came out in under 1.5min maybe 2...  So I obviously don't have what it takes here.  I guess I could throttle it with a ball valve, but I think I would rather buy RO/Distilled for the time being.  Atleast for tomorrows brewday that is what I am going to do.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: Joe Sr. on October 12, 2016, 04:24:37 pm
You may be correct.  I know chloramines are harder to deal with than simple chlorine.  I've never had an issue, though.  Chicago must not use chloramines.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 12, 2016, 04:35:43 pm
Chloramines can or can not be helped with a Campden tablet?  I did not think they did...
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 04:39:36 pm
Chloramines can or can not be helped with a Campden tablet?  I did not think they did...
Campden is a foolproof method of removal. 1 tab for 20 gallons.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 12, 2016, 04:46:09 pm
well then that will be my next shot.  cheaper than buying RO/Distilled.  But for the random times I make something pale it is nice to use RO.  or I need to convince my wife to move someplace where the water is better.... haha
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on November 15, 2016, 09:39:57 am
Not a big fan of this yeast.  Has anyone else used it yet?  Something is off about it in both brews I have with this yeast.  I need to age it a bit, and let it chill for another month or so.  This brew is spiced bubblegum with a big malty aroma.  I think the recipe is off, but fwiw I am not a fan thus far.  I will try again on a single malt and see if it really is the yeast I don't like or not.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 15, 2016, 09:43:36 am
Not a big fan of this yeast.  Has anyone else used it yet?  Something is off about it in both brews I have with this yeast.  I need to age it a bit, and let it chill for another month or so.  This brew is spiced bubblegum with a big malty aroma.  I think the recipe is off, but fwiw I am not a fan thus far.  I will try again on a single malt and see if it really is the yeast I don't like or not.



How warm did you ferment, out of curiosity? Saison strains are pretty temp sensitive IMO - a little cool and they're boring, a little too warm and the fruity, bubblegum, fuselly thing comes out in many strains.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on November 15, 2016, 09:46:53 am
68F and temp range is 65-78F
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 15, 2016, 11:29:10 am
68F and temp range is 65-78F


I haven't used that strain yet, but the temp profile is pretty close to what I use for most saison strains. The first time I try one, I like to hold around 67F for a couple days then ramp up slowly to mid/upper 70s. Then adjust up or down the next time depending on what I thought of the beer.
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 15, 2016, 12:16:00 pm
Here is Drew's notes:
nose initially of rusty red apples with peaches thicker body with a strong cinnamon mid body. Final body is dry, but not aggressively so - softer than many of the other strains. Probably would benefit from a cooler ferment to avoid the red apple ester. Will retest
Title: Re: Saisonstein Monster OYL-500/BJCP ?
Post by: JJeffers09 on November 15, 2016, 01:06:48 pm
I went and opened another.  Cause I am fortunate enough to work from home :) but I am still unhappy with it.  I am going to take to a bottle share this Thursday and see what everyone thinks.