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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Allen Brown on October 11, 2016, 06:01:28 PM

Title: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Allen Brown on October 11, 2016, 06:01:28 PM
Hey Guys,

I am a rookie with wiring diagrams, so I need a little direction. I have a single PID (SYL-2352) running a RIMS tube. What I'm trying to set up is a box with 3 switches. The first switch will turn the whole system on. The second switch will allow the SSR to bring power to the heating element. The third switch will allow me to manually switch on the circulating pump.

I have a 5,000W 240V heating element running on 120V, so effectively 1,375W @ 120V.

My switches are Radio Shack DPDT Heavy Duty Toggle Switches rated at 10A @ 125V AC.

My first question is, are these switches strong enough for the job?

My second question is, Does my wiring diagram look right?

(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa416/IndyBlueprints/PID%20PROPOSED%203.jpg)
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Werks21 on October 11, 2016, 06:30:01 PM
Based on the  Power you state @120 V for the heater element works out to just under 12 amps so you need that switch to be 15amps. Main panel switch will need to carry amperage for the pump as well so you need to figure pump amperage and add that to the 12 for the heater and then round up. Pump switch is fine as I dont think the pump draws much but you need to find out how much the pump draws any way so we will know for sure. also keep in mind that you need to double the pump amperage rating for all affected switches since it is a motor. Also you have power connection points up stream of the switch so power will be available to parts of the system before the switch is flipped. having never wired a PID I would need the pinout info for the PID SRR and RTD to fully check out/verify wiring. Also there is not ground wiring wich I sometimes leave out for simplicity when sketching/aranging things but at this stage, since this will be flying in close proximity to/hooked up to metal and liquid it would be good to be working on a final draft of grounding as well.

Qualifications: Aircraft Mechanic for 12 years and FCC General Radio Operators license and Radar endorsement.
That said, although I always trust my own schematics but I am not infallible, and spend considerably longer reviewing my own work, and can see/verify all the parts, ratings,connection ect. more info would help.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: dak0415 on October 11, 2016, 06:47:43 PM
You might want to power the heater through the pump switch so the heater will not come on without the pump running.  Then you could put a low voltage switch between 7 and SSR(3) to control the heater off/on.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Allen Brown on October 11, 2016, 08:58:38 PM
Thank you both for the response.

As far as the pump goes, I want it wired before the main switch, so I can turn it on when I need it without powering anything else up, so the amperage for it only needs to be addressed with the "pump switch".  It's a "Chugger" pump, so it's only 1.4 Amps.  Should be fine.

I don't think I want to power the pump with the heater, as I want to make sure I have good circulation with all the air pockets worked out before I turn on the heater.  I guess I'll have to rely on my own memory to make sure I don't run the heater without the pump running.

Thanks,

Allen
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Werks21 on October 12, 2016, 03:48:00 AM
You might want to power the heater through the pump switch so the heater will not come on without the pump running.  Then you could put a low voltage switch between 7 and SSR(3) to control the heater off/on.


What he is saying is not to tie their operation together as in both on and off at the same time. he is saying that the heater should be powered through/by the pumps operation, meaning that if the pump is not in operation the heater can not/will not receive current. this is a common safety circuit in rims used to prevent scorching or boiling or dry firing or worse.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Allen Brown on October 12, 2016, 02:49:10 PM


[/quote]

What he is saying is not to tie their operation together as in both on and off at the same time. he is saying that the heater should be powered through/by the pumps operation, meaning that if the pump is not in operation the heater can not/will not receive current. this is a common safety circuit in rims used to prevent scorching or boiling or dry firing or worse.
[/quote]

Ahhh... Now I understand, and it makes perfect sense.  What I don't know is how to wire that.  Does that mean the pump would be between the SSR and the Heater, or in between the PID and the SSR?  If either one of those was the case, how would I keep the pump circulating when the PID temporarily powered down the heater? 
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 03:19:18 PM
Hot would go from the switch parallel to the pump and input of the SSR. Not the low voltage side of the SSR, that would still be wired to the PID.

The hot to the SSR would be stopped by the SSR when the PID has it off.

The only issue with the above is if the SSR ever fails closed. If this happens the element would be on. I don't know if this is likely. I know mechanical relays tend to fail open, not sure if this is the case with SSRs.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Allen Brown on October 12, 2016, 04:04:14 PM
Hot would go from the switch parallel to the pump and input of the SSR. Not the low voltage side of the SSR, that would still be wired to the PID.

The hot to the SSR would be stopped by the SSR when the PID has it off.

The only issue with the above is if the SSR ever fails closed. If this happens the element would be on. I don't know if this is likely. I know mechanical relays tend to fail open, not sure if this is the case with SSRs.

Would that look like this?

(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa416/IndyBlueprints/PID%20PROPOSED%205.jpg)
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 04:16:13 PM
Looks ok from after the pump switch and I like that you have an additional switch between the the pump switch and element.

It appears you don't have the pump circuit wired to the main power circuit. I think you need to move the connection right at the line in to past the main switch.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Allen Brown on October 12, 2016, 04:37:25 PM
Looks ok from after the pump switch and I like that you have an additional switch between the the pump switch and element.

It appears you don't have the pump circuit wired to the main power circuit. I think you need to move the connection right at the line in to past the main switch.

This was intentional.  Doesn't mean it's right, but my thinking was that I might occasionally want to run the pump without turning on the PID.  Do you see any issues with that?
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 04:44:29 PM
No issue, but then it isn't a main power switch. To me main power would kill the entire panel.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: BairsBrewing on October 12, 2016, 05:45:10 PM
I can upload pictures of my rims wiring setup when I get home if you like. I used an Inkbird with a SSR to send power to the heater. The pump and heater are on two different outlets, one circuit. I did this so I can use the pump for cooling wort. I just always unplug the power to the heater when I'm don't with the mash, that way I don't accidentally turn on the heater.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Allen Brown on October 12, 2016, 06:14:31 PM
I can upload pictures of my rims wiring setup when I get home if you like. I used an Inkbird with a SSR to send power to the heater. The pump and heater are on two different outlets, one circuit. I did this so I can use the pump for cooling wort. I just always unplug the power to the heater when I'm don't with the mash, that way I don't accidentally turn on the heater.

That would be great.

What I didn't mention was each of these switches are not actually powering the devices, they are powering individual outlets that these devices are plugged into.  So, I could (and should) do the same thing.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: BairsBrewing on October 12, 2016, 06:28:16 PM
I can upload pictures of my rims wiring setup when I get home if you like. I used an Inkbird with a SSR to send power to the heater. The pump and heater are on two different outlets, one circuit. I did this so I can use the pump for cooling wort. I just always unplug the power to the heater when I'm don't with the mash, that way I don't accidentally turn on the heater.

That would be great.

What I didn't mention was each of these switches are not actually powering the devices, they are powering individual outlets that these devices are plugged into.  So, I could (and should) do the same thing.
That's what I did as well.

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Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Werks21 on October 12, 2016, 06:29:32 PM
No issue, but then it isn't a main power switch. To me main power would kill the entire panel.

Agreed. Consider moving hot connections down stream of the main and you can use the PID power switch to kill the PID when you dont want/need it on. unless you just want a redundant power switch for the PID, which is what you currently have. A big plus to having a main is it serves as a emergecy stop switch. no need to process what is going wrong and find the swich. Just hit the one and it all ceases.

Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Allen Brown on October 12, 2016, 07:42:50 PM
No issue, but then it isn't a main power switch. To me main power would kill the entire panel.

Agreed. Consider moving hot connections down stream of the main and you can use the PID power switch to kill the PID when you dont want/need it on. unless you just want a redundant power switch for the PID, which is what you currently have. A big plus to having a main is it serves as a emergecy stop switch. no need to process what is going wrong and find the swich. Just hit the one and it all ceases.

Yeah, That's a really good point.  Much better to have a main PANIC button to shut everything down at once.

OK, changed again:

(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa416/IndyBlueprints/PID%20PROPOSED%207.jpg)
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Stevie on October 12, 2016, 08:09:01 PM
Looks ok to me, but I'm not an electrician. Be sure to power it on a GFI protected circuit. The GFI should protect the entire system, so place it as close to the source power as possible and not at the end of a long extension cord.
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Werks21 on October 13, 2016, 02:55:52 AM
It would work as drawn but your scraping in there amperage wise on the main switch which has me thinking about the whole box and what circuit it will be run on, but one thing at a time. the pump is 1.4 (right?)x2 for motor start is 2.8Amps plus the element at about 11.5 and your at 14.3 amps. So that is pretty close but you will most likely have this plugged into a standard 15Amp circuit, and if so you are protected. which I guess makes that concern less concerning. that being said, remember that the NEC has charts to determine wire size on amperage for good reason, a small wire on a 15 amp circuit will quickly burn up its insulation if tasked with carrying more amperage than it is rated for. 14 gauge is good for 15 amps though some of the wires on the 120V AC side can (theoretically) be smaller because they will be carrying small loads but go as big as you can. Also, I dont have a pin out for the SRR but 1 on the SRR is line in right???
Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: BairsBrewing on October 13, 2016, 06:57:07 AM
Not sure if these will help, but here goes.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161013/cb1b28f73cea9c5c1e0dcf2ae3251a9e.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161013/10e8c5a21437b4619c1797527af994d0.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161013/b739baad83cf317d5c68039185be5ffc.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161013/0d9aab668897a4460be907d13faef8b1.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161013/1c21afac5b7bdfb77f02ae18bf654c45.jpg)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Need help on wiring a PID for RIMS
Post by: Allen Brown on October 14, 2016, 04:42:00 PM
..... Also, I dont have a pin out for the SRR but 1 on the SRR is line in right???

It may be on some, but on mine it's 9 & 10:  http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2352_manual.pdf