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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 07:11:24 PM

Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 07:11:24 PM
Since many of the other threads have gone derailed, I thought I would create a place to answer questions on low oxygen brewing. This goes in part with a podcast I will be going on outlining some of the most critical, and hopefully some of the easiest ways to delve into this method. I will open it up in the true spirit of openness, to try and answer any and all questions. Lets keep this positive and open.

Prost

BR
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Phil_M on October 17, 2016, 07:14:59 PM
I have SMB on the way, so I'm looking to try this on a Helles.

My biggest concern is keeping things O2 free during the mash. I know to underlet the grains, no sparge, etc, but my concern is headspace in my cooler. Aside from buying (yet another) cooler, what's a good way to solve this issue? Is saran wrap a "good enough" oxygen barrier?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on October 17, 2016, 07:18:51 PM
My concern is the all or nothing approach. For those that would like to try some steps, do you feel making some adjustments would yield some improvements? Example, would removing splashing help at all? Would spunding create any improvement?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 07:19:46 PM
I have SMB on the way, so I'm looking to try this on a Helles.

My biggest concern is keeping things O2 free during the mash. I know to underlet the grains, no sparge, etc, but my concern is headspace in my cooler. Aside from buying (yet another) cooler, what's a good way to solve this issue? Is saran wrap a "good enough" oxygen barrier?

I can't speak personally to the details of the actual hard numbers, but I know folks who are using coolers, either have done nothing (Bigger SMB dose) or used some type of foil. I know at least one use a tight fitting rigid foam piece covered in foil. Please keep in mind if you are no sparging I would start at the 50mg/l doasge as to not get too much sulfur in the finished product.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 07:27:13 PM
My concern is the all or nothing approach. For those that would like to try some steps, do you feel making some adjustments would yield some improvements? Example, would removing splashing help at all? Would spunding create any improvement?

Indeed, this is probably the MOST voiced concern there is. There are varying degrees of "it" and those varying degrees are how much polyphenols in the malt are being consumed by oxygen.


Example:
A preboil only and no SMB, you will get a noticeably paler wort and you will notice a increase in flavor. however its going to be not nearly as much as a preboil and SMB treatment. The SMB is a very nice way to control these reactions, but its not fool proof.


The easiest way I would have a go at it is this:
Use the yeast method(personally I find the flavor to be a little more flat with this method, but for this purpose its pretty fail safe).
If no sparge use a 50mgl dose, if not use full. Minimize all splashing and stirring
Target less than 10% boil off
Ferment cooler with no ramping, keep that fermentation at 50f or below.
Either spund with some extract remaining OR ferment to gravity and sugar prime the keg.

You should net some EASILY identifiable results from this, and its pretty easy peasy with what most have on hand.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 17, 2016, 07:44:12 PM
THANK YOU for writing that incremental approach! 

A few more questions: any noticeable improvements with the hops?  I am trying to get a little more "alpine" or more authentic hop signature.  Also, I assume post ferment clarifiers like gelatine are out? 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 07:52:20 PM
THANK YOU for writing that incremental approach! 

A few more questions: any noticeable improvements with the hops?  I am trying to get a little more "alpine" or more authentic hop signature.  Also, I assume post ferment clarifiers like gelatine are out?

I think there are a few different ways to do hops. My personal opinion that I like is a 60/30 addition. Its puts me where I want to be. But whirlpool and other options are far from out, you will have to get a feel for your own personal style. I can tell you that Low oxygen brewing has a definite influence on hops( for the better) much like the malt I get much more fresh and interesting flavors.
Clarifiers...Yea this is a tough one. I have had success with them, but in many cases its not worth the effort involved. Find a nice lager yeast with decent floc (I use 2206), and its only a few weeks until clear beer. The beer is not ready to drink until that point anyways.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 17, 2016, 07:53:06 PM
Brewed an American Blonde yesterday in a Speidel Braumeiser. Used the yeast scavenging method to remove oxygen and added 50 ppm smb with no-sparge. No detectable sulphur, so that's good. The only problem is with the mashing mehod. The Braumeister is a kind of biab system that pushes the wort up through the grains. Unfortunately, when there is not enough liquid in the mash, the wort overflows in the basket and then flows down again. So there will be oxygen pickup. Next time I need to increase the volume so that the liquid level is higher that the basket. Boiling goes very well as one can set the boiling temperature to 99C and get a nice simmer. I'm fermenting in a keg and will use a spunding valve in a couple of days. As to wort color and flavor, this is my first American blonde, so the jury is still out in Biasland.

The other day my 16 year old son had a chemistry test about  redox reactions, and so I explained him a bit about the supposed effect of low oxygen brewing. 10 minutes later he referred to it as "The Whatever Effect", and so that's what I'll be calling it from now on ;)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 17, 2016, 07:54:45 PM
Brewed an American Blonde yesterday in a Speidel Braumeiser. Used the yeast scavenging method to remove oxygen and added 50 ppm smb with no-sparge. No detectable sulphur, so that's good. The only problem is with the mashing mehod. The Braumeister is a kind of biab system that pushes the wort up through the grains. Unfortunately, when there is not enough liquid in the mash, the wort overflows in the basket and then flows down again. So there will be oxygen pickup. Next time I need to increase the volume so that the liquid level is higher that the basket. Boiling goes very well as one can set the boiling temperature to 99C and get a nice simmer. I'm fermenting in a keg and will use a spunding valve in a couple of days. As to wort color and flavor, this is my first American blonde, so the jury is still out in Biasland.

The other day my 16 year old son had a chemistry test about  redox reactions, and so I explained him a bit about the supposed effect of low oxygen brewing. 10 minutes later he referred to it as "The Whatever Effect", and so that's what I'll be calling it from now on ;)

More than a few people have had a devil of a time adapting the BM to Low O2
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 07:56:13 PM
Brewed an American Blonde yesterday in a Speidel Braumeiser. Used the yeast scavenging method to remove oxygen and added 50 ppm smb with no-sparge. No detectable sulphur, so that's good. The only problem is with the mashing mehod. The Braumeister is a kind of biab system that pushes the wort up through the grains. Unfortunately, when there is not enough liquid in the mash, the wort overflows in the basket and then flows down again. So there will be oxygen pickup. Next time I need to increase the volume so that the liquid level is higher that the basket. Boiling goes very well as one can set the boiling temperature to 99C and get a nice simmer. I'm fermenting in a keg and will use a spunding valve in a couple of days. As to wort color and flavor, this is my first American blonde, so the jury is still out in Biasland.

The other day my 16 year old son had a chemistry test about  redox reactions, and so I explained him a bit about the supposed effect of low oxygen brewing. 10 minutes later he referred to it as "The Whatever Effect", and so that's what I'll be calling it from now on ;)

I don't have a Braumeister, but perhaps a purge with co2 at the start of mashing, and using the lid would help with o2 mitigation.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 17, 2016, 08:03:30 PM
Somebody suggested taping the lid airtight to the kettle, sticking in a tube and letting a tiny amount of CO2 flow in during the mash, with just a small hole so that the excess amount of oxygen/CO2 can escape.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: jja on October 17, 2016, 08:51:36 PM
Somebody suggested taping the lid airtight to the kettle, sticking in a tube and letting a tiny amount of CO2 flow in during the mash, with just a small hole so that the excess amount of oxygen/CO2 can escape.

Cask breather? Maybe plus an airlock?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 08:54:42 PM
If you can create a reasonable seal, one purge should be good enough.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on October 17, 2016, 11:06:30 PM
OR ferment to gravity and sugar prime the keg.

What method are people using to add priming solution to a purged keg without introducing too much air?

The best I can think of is adding a sampling port to your transfer tubing and using a syringe to dose the beer in-line.  Maybe someone else has come up with an easier solution?
 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 17, 2016, 11:13:36 PM
OR ferment to gravity and sugar prime the keg.

What method are people using to add priming solution to a purged keg without introducing too much air?

The best I can think of is adding a sampling port to your transfer tubing and using a syringe to dose the beer in-line.  Maybe someone else has come up with an easier solution?
You can inject the priming solution through the liquid out fitting.  If I were to add speise or Krauesen to a beer, I would put it into a 2.5 gallon keg (have 2) purge 12 times with 30 PSI CO2, then jumper out to out, and inject into the purged keg.

That is how I would give it a try.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: tommymorris on October 17, 2016, 11:21:10 PM
How long must one boil in a preboil?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 11:24:44 PM
OR ferment to gravity and sugar prime the keg.

What method are people using to add priming solution to a purged keg without introducing too much air?

The best I can think of is adding a sampling port to your transfer tubing and using a syringe to dose the beer in-line.  Maybe someone else has come up with an easier solution?

Again I don't have hard figures on this as I spund, however I don't think it has to be that complicated. Fill with sanitizer push out with co2. Put 1-2psi on the regulator and switch to liquid out. Pop the top of the keg and you should have a positive pressure coming out the opening, simply dump in the sugar, and replace the lid. Crank up pressure and purge a few times with the connector on the liquid out. Then I would rack the beer in a closed loop. You should have enough yeast reduction to cover you.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 17, 2016, 11:26:24 PM
How long must one boil in a preboil?

5 minutes.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 17, 2016, 11:27:20 PM
How long must one boil in a preboil?
Oxygen solubility is zero at 100c. So as long as you can ensure your entire volume of water is at that you are good. For reference I do 5 minutes with 5500 watts wide open.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 17, 2016, 11:39:24 PM
OR ferment to gravity and sugar prime the keg.

What method are people using to add priming solution to a purged keg without introducing too much air?

The best I can think of is adding a sampling port to your transfer tubing and using a syringe to dose the beer in-line.  Maybe someone else has come up with an easier solution?
You can inject the priming solution through the liquid out fitting.  If I were to add speise or Krauesen to a beer, I would put it into a 2.5 gallon keg (have 2) purge 12 times with 30 PSI CO2, then jumper out to out, and inject into the purged keg.

That is how I would give it a try.

You can also use a club soda plastic bottle and carbonator cap... this works very well for adding gelatin.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 17, 2016, 11:53:24 PM
I don't want to derail but if the issue that turns people off is the all-or-nothing aspect, I suggest you test any or all of the steps separately.  My humble two cents:

I haven't yet gotten Brewtan to test but I do see an improvement in lagering time from a) preboiling and using 60ppm smb in the mash water, and b) using pvpp in the whirlpool.  My aim was to prevent the formation of polyphenols, or precipitate them, which aging usually does for me but gelatin does not.  I still have a copper pick up tube and didn't keg until fermentation was 90% done, but I do push out of my stainless fermenter using CO2 into kegs purged by pushing out sanitizer.

I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.

So, there are multiple poasible benefits.  For what I need, part of the process may be enough.  That being said, a traditional long lagering period has done well in the past, though it may not give you the modern "big brewer" taste if that is what you want.  I'm also excited to try Brewtan because I'd really like to avoid lengthening the brewday unless it's unavoidable.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 12:00:39 AM


I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.


The lower pH is 100% the cause of the SMB. At that dose rate you used you are at about .1 reduction.  However, I don't think you will see a color reduction from pH alone, well not in that range anyway. How was the flavor of the wort?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 18, 2016, 12:07:26 AM
I want to revisit the sulfur issue. Am I correct in understanding that, until you dial in the amount of SMB needed for your system, you stand a decent chance of unpleasant levels of sulfur in the finished beers? I know that sulfur generally dissipates over time, but I'd rather not wait past the beers freshness peak to wait out sulfur. Do you feel this is due more to the dose or the lack of copper contact (ie., copper IC) or a combination of both? In the mean time (or maybe permanently), I'll be using a copper IC, with Brewtan B and SMB, in the hopes that the Brewtan will offset the copper induced oxidation (which seems legit to me). We'll see. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 18, 2016, 12:09:47 AM


I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.


The lower pH is 100% the cause of the SMB. At that dose rate you used you are at about .1 reduction.  However, I don't think you will see a color reduction from pH alone, well not in that range anyway. How was the flavor of the wort?

The wort was smooth.  There was an excellent break, which I've had before when lowering pH, but not always.    This fest bier was on the low end of IBUs so I didn't expect a harshness but it definitely seemed like any possible polyphenol harshness was minimized.  So far, so good.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Phil_M on October 18, 2016, 12:10:38 AM
In the mean time (or maybe permanently), I'll be using a copper IC, with Brewtan B and SMB, in the hopes that the Brewtan will offset the copper induced oxidation (which seems legit to me). We'll see.

I just asked pretty much the same question in the Brewtan B thread. I'm hoping that Brewtan B can offset any "issues" from using copper chillers.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 12:15:20 AM
I want to revisit the sulfur issue. Am I correct in understanding that, until you dial in the amount of SMB needed for your system, you stand a decent chance of unpleasant levels of sulfur in the finished beers? I know that sulfur generally dissipates over time, but I'd rather not wait past the beers freshness peak to wait out sulfur. Do you feel this is due more to the dose or the lack of copper contact (ie., copper IC) or a combination of both? In the mean time (or maybe permanently), I'll be using a copper IC, with Brewtan B and SMB, in the hopes that the Brewtan will offset the copper induced oxidation (which seems legit to me). We'll see.

Well there are two ways to attack this.  One is to start low and work higher little by little, until you get a hint of what is unpleasant to you.  Or start high and work low. I would go the first one and start at 50-60mgl and slowly work up until you find your diminishing return number.  I would strongly reocmmend the sulfite test strips, and would try and not have more than 20ppm sulfites post boil.
The sulfur issues are most certainly an issue of to high a dose of SMB and not a lack of copper. Remember SMB is a bandaid, and the least amount you can use to achieve the results you want the better.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 18, 2016, 12:18:43 AM
and the least amount you can use to achieve the results you want the better.


Yeah, that was my thought. Thanks for the guidance.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: scrap iron on October 18, 2016, 02:37:06 PM
I tried the SMB in  Strong Bitter recipe I use all the time. Pre boiled mash and sparge water and quick cooled to their respective temps. I had to use my copper IC as that's all I have but I did clean it well and soaked it in vinegar along with copper whirlpool fittings. I then rinsed the vinegar off with water and wiped dry. I added the SMB and my brewing salts after fast cooling. Pumped cooled water to underlet  grains in MT and covered top of mash with foil. SMB dose was .1mg/liter water in mash and about 25 ppm in sparge. I use a direct fire mash and circulate with a copper fitting [pacified with vinegar] under the mash surface. Also made a copper sparge arm that outlets under the mash surface. My questions are,[1] is using the copper that's pacified going to be ok
[2] should I not circulate the DF mash as much, I run it to maintain and raise temps.[3] is the sparge method described ok, no sparge might be a problem [4] is it ok to add SMB along with regular brewing salts {5] I dry hopped in a purged carboy after fermented ,thoughts on my methods?  I bottled this beer just 4 days ago and it smelled great. Very strong floral and some spice from Golding and Willamette hops. The hydro sample tasted great. Sorry for the long post and thanks for posting feedback for us,   cheers Mike.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 03:18:26 PM
I tried the SMB in  Strong Bitter recipe I use all the time. Pre boiled mash and sparge water and quick cooled to their respective temps. I had to use my copper IC as that's all I have but I did clean it well and soaked it in vinegar along with copper whirlpool fittings. I then rinsed the vinegar off with water and wiped dry. I added the SMB and my brewing salts after fast cooling. Pumped cooled water to underlet  grains in MT and covered top of mash with foil. SMB dose was .1mg/liter water in mash and about 25 ppm in sparge. I use a direct fire mash and circulate with a copper fitting [pacified with vinegar] under the mash surface. Also made a copper sparge arm that outlets under the mash surface. My questions are,[1] is using the copper that's pacified going to be ok
[2] should I not circulate the DF mash as much, I run it to maintain and raise temps.[3] is the sparge method described ok, no sparge might be a problem [4] is it ok to add SMB along with regular brewing salts {5] I dry hopped in a purged carboy after fermented ,thoughts on my methods?  I bottled this beer just 4 days ago and it smelled great. Very strong floral and some spice from Golding and Willamette hops. The hydro sample tasted great. Sorry for the long post and thanks for posting feedback for us,   cheers Mike.

I will try and break this down.

1. I honestly don't know. I have never used copper. Kunze is very strict in his avoidance of copper. Brewtan will likely be your friend if you have any copper and/or use tap water.
2. I recirculate my mash the entire time, and I feel this helps in keeping all fats and lipids in the tun.
3. Sparging should be fine, Just always use caution when handling it, minimize splashing and stirring.
4. Absolutely, not a problem.
5. I am not going to lie, its going to hurt you. When dry hopping in a keg or fermenter its not a bad idea to either have yeast still active, or add some sugar to activate the yeast and scavenge the o2 you created.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 18, 2016, 03:30:54 PM


I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.


The lower pH is 100% the cause of the SMB. At that dose rate you used you are at about .1 reduction.  However, I don't think you will see a color reduction from pH alone, well not in that range anyway. How was the flavor of the wort?

The wort was smooth.  There was an excellent break, which I've had before when lowering pH, but not always.    This fest bier was on the low end of IBUs so I didn't expect a harshness but it definitely seemed like any possible polyphenol harshness was minimized.  So far, so good.

What's your doing rate of the Polyclar?  Recommended is 15g/hL or about 3grams/5G. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 18, 2016, 06:12:03 PM


I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.


The lower pH is 100% the cause of the SMB. At that dose rate you used you are at about .1 reduction.  However, I don't think you will see a color reduction from pH alone, well not in that range anyway. How was the flavor of the wort?

The wort was smooth.  There was an excellent break, which I've had before when lowering pH, but not always.    This fest bier was on the low end of IBUs so I didn't expect a harshness but it definitely seemed like any possible polyphenol harshness was minimized.  So far, so good.

What's your doing rate of the Polyclar?  Recommended is 15g/hL or about 3grams/5G.

I started slightly lower, maybe 4.5 grams per 10 gallons.  I'm willing to try more, although that stuff isn't cheap.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 06:40:50 PM


I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.



The lower pH is 100% the cause of the SMB. At that dose rate you used you are at about .1 reduction.  However, I don't think you will see a color reduction from pH alone, well not in that range anyway. How was the flavor of the wort?

The wort was smooth.  There was an excellent break, which I've had before when lowering pH, but not always.    This fest bier was on the low end of IBUs so I didn't expect a harshness but it definitely seemed like any possible polyphenol harshness was minimized.  So far, so good.

What's your doing rate of the Polyclar?  Recommended is 15g/hL or about 3grams/5G.

I started slightly lower, maybe 4.5 grams per 10 gallons.  I'm willing to try more, although that stuff isn't cheap.

Nor easy to work with, did you have it on the stir plate for a minimum of 1hr?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 18, 2016, 06:57:25 PM
I started slightly lower, maybe 4.5 grams per 10 gallons.  I'm willing to try more, although that stuff isn't cheap.
I hear ya but hope that changes. 

Do remember the dosage is based on the brew.  Higher ABV and hoppy need more.  I am like 6g for 5G on IIPA.  You'll know if you're using enough tho, the clarity is pretty obvious. 

1hr stir plate?  New to me.  My info says to simply rehydrate cool liquid to avoid clumping and use 10m prior to KO/I do half way into whirlpool.   Mfr Rep (Ashland) also confirmed.  Interested tho.  Honestly, I love the stuff. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 07:02:51 PM
I started slightly lower, maybe 4.5 grams per 10 gallons.  I'm willing to try more, although that stuff isn't cheap.
I hear ya but hope that changes. 

Do remember the dosage is based on the brew.  Higher ABV and hoppy need more.  I am like 6g for 5G on IIPA.  You'll know if you're using enough tho, the clarity is pretty obvious. 

1hr stir plate?  New to me.  My info says to simply rehydrate cool liquid to avoid clumping and use 10m prior to KO/I do half way into whirlpool.   Mfr Rep (Ashland) also confirmed.  Interested tho.  Honestly, I love the stuff.

My rep told me differently, but maybe because I used it cold side. My method:
boil @ 2 cups of distilled water for 3-4 minutes to remove O2 and to sanitize the water. Cool water below 80F. Take an 8 ounce Kerr canning jar (clean and sanitized) and add 10-15 grams of PVPP and a sanitized stir bar.

Add the cooled water so the water completely fills the jar (the water will be slightly above the rim) and let the air come out of the PVPP. This takes a minute or so as the PVPP absorbs the water. As the air comes out, add water if necessary. Place the cap on jar, this should force the excess water out of the jar (the water will be slightly over the top of the lid due to water tension). This will remove nearly all air from the jar and prevent O2 from getting into your beer.

Put on stir plate for @ 90 minutes. The PVPP needs to be in "aquauous suspension", which means that none of the tiny beads should be stuck together. Mixing it in with a stir plate does this.

Tip the Kerr jar upside down so the stir bar sticks to the lid, add to beer, mix thoroughly. PVPP works best when it's mixed in well.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 18, 2016, 07:55:58 PM
Wow, that doesn't look fun but it does make sense for LO cold side.  Honestly, once I tried hot side, I was hooked.  The paper that got me started: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 08:55:38 PM
I think I need to back up and ask, what your wort looks like. I will post some pictures of my wort a various stages. I do add whirlfloc but that is the only clearing agent I add in my whole process.

So here is mash:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14705798_792700487539220_8707322831816136174_n.jpg?oh=16c33b7b7c0f1c96614678b0e0468a86&oe=58A675DA)

Preboil:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14705821_792700464205889_4375950924952966930_n.jpg?oh=b25c3af5ccd479e112132309718f8bda&oe=58ABAAA0)

Boiling:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14666084_792699830872619_6527780381529998052_n.jpg?oh=9983131800f4d65db55c4f06e5b503cd&oe=58AA819F)

Post boil:(slight condensation here since the wort is at 40F)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14702495_792700460872556_8718719908428546569_n.jpg?oh=1995a3d365f3c3b13ff56b5d9be82a88&oe=589A9BD5)


Finished:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14724538_792699867539282_6345099211923211104_n.jpg?oh=eb90821745da0371516425b6130037e3&oe=5897C296)



Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on October 18, 2016, 09:08:54 PM
If I mash in a cooler but don't use any pumps, is it worth the effort to gravity feed the boiled/SMBd strike water into the bed of the grains (basically jamming the silicon tubing down to the base of the cooler through the grain bed) versus just carefully pouring/ladling the strike water on top of the grains maybe with some CO2 pumped on top while I do this?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 18, 2016, 09:10:20 PM
Going in at 5 mins to the end of the boil, I just rehdrated briefly in water and stirred a bit.

My interested was piqued both by zwiller and reading on the aussie forums about BrewBrite, which was basically carageenan and pvpp.

Again, looking to prevent polyphenols that would require a long lagering time from making it into the keg.  I would much prefer the ease of use on the hot side, which is why I tried it there first.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 09:18:11 PM
If I mash in a cooler but don't use any pumps, is it worth the effort to gravity feed the boiled/SMBd strike water into the bed of the grains (basically jamming the silicon tubing down to the base of the cooler through the grain bed) versus just carefully pouring/ladling the strike water on top of the grains maybe with some CO2 pumped on top while I do this?

If I need to move water in a pinch, I use a decoction ladle(4qt) and use an easy transfer method of just slowly submerging the ladle and tipping it. No splash, very little uptake.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on October 18, 2016, 09:18:19 PM
What is the thought process of limiting the boil losses to 10%? Why wouldn't a more vigorous boil devoid the wort of any remaining O2?

Also, if I had a few extra bucks burning a hole in my pocket, which DO meters would be good choices?


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 09:23:39 PM
What is the thought process of limiting the boil losses to 10%? Why wouldn't a more vigorous boil devoid the wort of any remaining O2?

Also, if I had a few extra bucks burning a hole in my pocket, which DO meters would be good choices?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, wort can't hold any oxygen at 100c, so therefore it is of no use to boil hard to get rid of oxygen. Be very cautious about the TBI(thiobarbituric acid index) boogey man in regards to heat stress. You do not want to pick up any more maillard coloring than you need too as it will hurt the beers flavor.

I use an Extech do600.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on October 18, 2016, 09:26:25 PM
If I mash in a cooler but don't use any pumps, is it worth the effort to gravity feed the boiled/SMBd strike water into the bed of the grains (basically jamming the silicon tubing down to the base of the cooler through the grain bed) versus just carefully pouring/ladling the strike water on top of the grains maybe with some CO2 pumped on top while I do this?

If I need to move water in a pinch, I use a decoction ladle(4qt) and use an easy transfer method of just slowly submerging the ladle and tipping it. No splash, very little uptake.

Thanks - I'd taken to that practice early on in brewing as I don't like lifting a whole pot of strike water to dump.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 18, 2016, 09:36:50 PM
First off, nice pics.  I think that is pretty good looking wort!  When using Polyclar Brewbrite (yep, whirlfloc and polyclar together) the finished wort resembles finished beer.  It is that bright.  If it's not, you are not using enough.  Not saying you need it, but would encourage you to try it hot side once and see if you like it since the cold procedure looks to be quite involved.  My Ashland Rep says once brewers use it (hot side), they no longer filter.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: techbrau on October 18, 2016, 09:40:51 PM
What is the thought process of limiting the boil losses to 10%? Why wouldn't a more vigorous boil devoid the wort of any remaining O2?

Also, if I had a few extra bucks burning a hole in my pocket, which DO meters would be good choices?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, wort can't hold any oxygen at 100c, so therefore it is of no use to boil hard to get rid of oxygen. Be very cautious about the TBI(thiobarbituric acid index) boogey man in regards to heat stress. You do not want to pick up any more maillard coloring than you need too as it will hurt the beers flavor.

I use an Extech do600.

Oxygen can and will still react with the wort at the air/liquid interface, and the reactions at boiling temperature happen on the order of thousands of times faster than they do at room temperature. More rolling means more surface area of the wort exposed to the air.

What is the thought process of limiting the boil losses to 10%? Why wouldn't a more vigorous boil devoid the wort of any remaining O2?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is not about getting oxygen out of the mash/boil, it is about keeping it out. Once it's in the wort, it's too late. The damaging oxidative reactions happen on the order of 30 seconds to 1 minute according to Kunze.

Here are some of my experiences with heat stress:

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=440

For anybody trying the low oxygen process, I really recommend tasting the wort during the mash and at mashout because it will give you an idea of what low oxygen wort is supposed to taste like. I find that it tastes very similar to chewing on raw malt kernels, but sweeter and more intense overall. By comparison, normal wort tastes more like diluted LME.

If your post boil wort doesn't have the fresh grain flavor that you had in the mash, you probably lost it by boiling too hard.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 18, 2016, 10:01:00 PM
Wow, that doesn't look fun but it does make sense for LO cold side.  Honestly, once I tried hot side, I was hooked.  The paper that got me started: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag)



I am gonna try using Brewbrite in boil as well. I have some coming from ibrew along with some more Brewtan. So I guess my brewing process is in flux. Gonna try low O2 with SMB (to the extent my brewery will allow), use Brewtan for metal chelation and packaging protection, and use Brewbrite at 10. What the final process ends up being remains to be seen. Gonna tinker until I find the optimum combo and process.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 18, 2016, 11:21:51 PM
Wow, that doesn't look fun but it does make sense for LO cold side.  Honestly, once I tried hot side, I was hooked.  The paper that got me started: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag)



 Gonna tinker until I find the optimum combo and process.

This is what I see myself doing as well. At least until i upgrade my crappy ass brew system and learn more about this low DO process.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 18, 2016, 11:43:45 PM
I have to ask, what do people think of the small, traditional, family owned places that don't have systems that de-oxegenate the water, or have copper in the process, Lots of copper sometimes.

In the last 12 months I have spent 1.5 months traveling in Germany. Some fond memories of drinking excellent beers were made. I will say that the styles were not Munich Helles.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 18, 2016, 11:54:08 PM
Jeff- Full disclosure I only like the German "macro"brew lagers. Ayinger, W, Bitburger and the like. All of the beers turned out by these breweries exhibit low oxygen brewing methods in spades. One of my fellow colleagues(Tech) was recently in country and said many of the beers from the smaller places were very American like in flavors( I don't want to speak for him or put words in his mouth). I hope he jumps in and comments. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 19, 2016, 12:54:45 AM
Jeff- Full disclosure I only like the German "macro"brew lagers. Ayinger, W, Bitburger and the like. All of the beers turned out by these breweries exhibit low oxygen brewing methods in spades. One of my fellow colleagues(Tech) was recently in country and said many of the beers from the smaller places were very American like in flavors( I don't want to speak for him or put words in his mouth). I hope he jumps in and comments.
There are some good Dunkels made on basic systems, do darker malts help?

Hoppy beers such as the Helles and Lagerbier in Franconia seem to be very süffig. Do the hops cover the lack of IT up? Yeasty Keller/Zwickel biers too.

The Uerige Altbier in Duesseldorf is exposed to a lot of O2 in the cooling steps. It is conditioned in wooden kegs, and doesn't have a chance to get stale due to high turnover.

I did really enjoy the Helles at  Schönram and Ayinger. Loved the Kellerbier at Schönram.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: mabrungard on October 19, 2016, 01:10:10 AM
True Jeff, but the Uerige example strongly typifies the problems with oxygen contact. You recall that trip that my clubmates took to Germany last summer and they brought back very fresh bottles of Uerige. They were all showing staling and oxidation a week later when I tasted them.

But this brings up something I put forward a couple of months ago regarding oxidation. LODO is NOT appropriate for all beer styles. I still say that some styles need that oxidation during their creation in order to produce the proper and desirable taste profile.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 19, 2016, 01:29:37 AM
True Jeff, but the Uerige example strongly typifies the problems with oxygen contact. You recall that trip that my clubmates took to Germany last summer and they brought back very fresh bottles of Uerige. They were all showing staling and oxidation a week later when I tasted them.

But this brings up something I put forward a couple of months ago regarding oxidation. LODO is NOT appropriate for all beer styles. I still say that some styles need that oxidation during their creation in order to produce the proper and desirable taste profile.
High turnover at the pub from wooden (and some SS kegs) makes for a fresh Altbier. The bottles, not so much. I know, I have carried those back a couple of times, didn't bother this time.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 19, 2016, 12:51:37 PM
Right I have had my share of Soy sauce and Kibble Zum's.

If you want to replicate a true beer, I will be the first one to tell you, you have to follow the source. But I will say in the same breath that if Zum, decided to ever go modern, the beer would 10x better  8)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 19, 2016, 02:47:16 PM
Right I have had my share of Soy sauce and Kibble Zum's.

If you want to replicate a true beer, I will be the first one to tell you, you have to follow the source. But I will say in the same breath that if Zum, decided to ever go modern, the beer would 10x better  8)

Don't disagree.  The one place where I think it may make a difference is Belgium.  The amount of copper is staggering.  And my hommelbier from last fall, step mashed with a copper herms coil for 90 minutes, is still great in bottles a year later despite the fact that obvious oxidation changes have happened.

But, I totally agree that a homebrew scale allows much more oxygen ingress in general.  So even if I keep the copper, I can see trying some kind of lodo/brewtan combination for those beers.  I plan to do it for a NEIPA next.  No, not an oat/yeast/chloride bomb... more of a Trillium clone, which is none of those.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 19, 2016, 03:01:41 PM
Wow, that doesn't look fun but it does make sense for LO cold side.  Honestly, once I tried hot side, I was hooked.  The paper that got me started: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag)

I am gonna try using Brewbrite in boil as well. I have some coming from ibrew along with some more Brewtan. So I guess my brewing process is in flux. Gonna try low O2 with SMB (to the extent my brewery will allow), use Brewtan for metal chelation and packaging protection, and use Brewbrite at 10. What the final process ends up being remains to be seen. Gonna tinker until I find the optimum combo and process.
It's all about finding what works for YOUR process and YOUR beers.  In my case as a hop head, I saw parallels about polyphenols > astringency and the efficacy of polyclar with that, went with my gut, and it works well.  In the spirit of this thread, polyclar is RHB compliant, whereas, Brewtan is not.   
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 19, 2016, 03:02:46 PM
So even if I keep the copper, I can see trying some kind of lodo/brewtan combination for those beers.


That's my plan, too.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on October 19, 2016, 03:10:13 PM
So even if I keep the copper, I can see trying some kind of lodo/brewtan combination for those beers.


That's my plan, too.
Same. Looking to try a few things, but won't be buying any new equipment until I am ready to build out my electric or NG system.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 19, 2016, 03:18:54 PM
Wow, that doesn't look fun but it does make sense for LO cold side.  Honestly, once I tried hot side, I was hooked.  The paper that got me started: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag)

I am gonna try using Brewbrite in boil as well. I have some coming from ibrew along with some more Brewtan. So I guess my brewing process is in flux. Gonna try low O2 with SMB (to the extent my brewery will allow), use Brewtan for metal chelation and packaging protection, and use Brewbrite at 10. What the final process ends up being remains to be seen. Gonna tinker until I find the optimum combo and process.
It's all about finding what works for YOUR process and YOUR beers.  In my case as a hop head, I saw parallels about polyphenols > astringency and the efficacy of polyclar with that, went with my gut, and it works well.  In the spirit of this thread, polyclar is RHB compliant, whereas, Brewtan is not.   

Just to clarify, Polyclar is compliant in RHG because is can be 100% filtered. If I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 19, 2016, 03:22:18 PM
Wow, that doesn't look fun but it does make sense for LO cold side.  Honestly, once I tried hot side, I was hooked.  The paper that got me started: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijhJOxjeXPAhUCLyYKHbIbBlgQFghSMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicro-report.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FISP_007_Stabilization_of_Beer_with_Polyclar_Brewbrite.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELOzelDM2MzmKFrOLXORBcfh3jag)

I am gonna try using Brewbrite in boil as well. I have some coming from ibrew along with some more Brewtan. So I guess my brewing process is in flux. Gonna try low O2 with SMB (to the extent my brewery will allow), use Brewtan for metal chelation and packaging protection, and use Brewbrite at 10. What the final process ends up being remains to be seen. Gonna tinker until I find the optimum combo and process.
It's all about finding what works for YOUR process and YOUR beers.  In my case as a hop head, I saw parallels about polyphenols > astringency and the efficacy of polyclar with that, went with my gut, and it works well.  In the spirit of this thread, polyclar is RHB compliant, whereas, Brewtan is not.   

Just to clarify, Polyclar is compliant in RHG because is can be 100% filtered. If I'm not mistaken.

Yea in the german brew house, PVPP is added on the cold side, right before filtering.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on October 19, 2016, 05:24:23 PM
Metals in contact with the mash and wort. 
Iron = bad.
SS = OK.
Copper = maybe bad, maybe correctable with Brewtan.
What about aluminum?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on October 20, 2016, 05:13:58 AM
Metals in contact with the mash and wort. 
Iron = bad.
SS = OK.
Copper = maybe bad, maybe correctable with Brewtan.
What about aluminum?

Anyone know about aluminum? It's probably not used much in commercial breweries which is the inspiration for LODO so maybe there isn't much readily available info on aluminum.  Aluminum produces an oxide layer but it prevents the aluminum fro acting further
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 20, 2016, 11:05:40 AM
Metals in contact with the mash and wort. 
Iron = bad.
SS = OK.
Copper = maybe bad, maybe correctable with Brewtan.
What about aluminum?

Anyone know about aluminum? It's probably not used much in commercial breweries which is the inspiration for LODO so maybe there isn't much readily available info on aluminum.  Aluminum produces an oxide layer but it prevents the aluminum fro acting further

You really want SS. Although using Brewtan in conjunction with Low O2 may mitigate some of the concerns. Aluminum will exhibit some of the same characteristics as Copper and Iron, albeit to a lesser degree.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: mabrungard on October 20, 2016, 12:56:46 PM
Aluminum is essentially unreactive at the range of typical wort pH. So, no worries with Al in wort. But it will corrode at typical beer pH.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 20, 2016, 01:32:25 PM
Metals in contact with the mash and wort. 
Iron = bad.
SS = OK.
Copper = maybe bad, maybe correctable with Brewtan.
What about aluminum?

Anyone know about aluminum? It's probably not used much in commercial breweries which is the inspiration for LODO so maybe there isn't much readily available info on aluminum.  Aluminum produces an oxide layer but it prevents the aluminum fro acting further
The oxide layer on AL does not stand up to the caustics and acids that are used to clean and remove beerstone in a commercial brewery.

As long as the oxide layer is intact, it shouldn't be a problem on the hot side. I know several
Homebrewers that use AL kettles. 304 SS has chromium, nickel, and iron, but the chromium oxide layer makes the surface passive.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on October 20, 2016, 05:00:02 PM
Metals in contact with the mash and wort. 
Iron = bad.
SS = OK.
Copper = maybe bad, maybe correctable with Brewtan.
What about aluminum?

Anyone know about aluminum? It's probably not used much in commercial breweries which is the inspiration for LODO so maybe there isn't much readily available info on aluminum.  Aluminum produces an oxide layer but it prevents the aluminum fro acting further
The oxide layer on AL does not stand up to the caustics and acids that are used to clean and remove beerstone in a commercial brewery.

As long as the oxide layer is intact, it shouldn't be a problem on the hot side. I know several
Homebrewers that use AL kettles. 304 SS has chromium, nickel, and iron, but the chromium oxide layer makes the surface passive.
So, using an aluminum skinned floating "lid" made from Reflectics (sp) to minimize air contact in the mash and after boil during cooling and whirlpool, would be helpful.  Yes?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on October 20, 2016, 05:16:49 PM
Reflectex is Mylar which is thin aluminum sandwiched between plastic. Can't say if it's ok or not, but it isn't bare aluminum.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 20, 2016, 05:50:12 PM
Metals in contact with the mash and wort. 
Iron = bad.
SS = OK.
Copper = maybe bad, maybe correctable with Brewtan.
What about aluminum?

Anyone know about aluminum? It's probably not used much in commercial breweries which is the inspiration for LODO so maybe there isn't much readily available info on aluminum.  Aluminum produces an oxide layer but it prevents the aluminum fro acting further
The oxide layer on AL does not stand up to the caustics and acids that are used to clean and remove beerstone in a commercial brewery.

As long as the oxide layer is intact, it shouldn't be a problem on the hot side. I know several
Homebrewers that use AL kettles. 304 SS has chromium, nickel, and iron, but the chromium oxide layer makes the surface passive.
So, using an aluminum skinned floating "lid" made from Reflectics (sp) to minimize air contact in the mash and after boil during cooling and whirlpool, would be helpful.  Yes?
With a pot you can boil water in it to enhance the oxide layer - John Palmer has outlined that procedure.

Reflected, not sure if the layer is as robust as required. Anyone know?
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 20, 2016, 06:04:00 PM
Metals in contact with the mash and wort. 
Iron = bad.
SS = OK.
Copper = maybe bad, maybe correctable with Brewtan.
What about aluminum?

Anyone know about aluminum? It's probably not used much in commercial breweries which is the inspiration for LODO so maybe there isn't much readily available info on aluminum.  Aluminum produces an oxide layer but it prevents the aluminum fro acting further
The oxide layer on AL does not stand up to the caustics and acids that are used to clean and remove beerstone in a commercial brewery.

As long as the oxide layer is intact, it shouldn't be a problem on the hot side. I know several
Homebrewers that use AL kettles. 304 SS has chromium, nickel, and iron, but the chromium oxide layer makes the surface passive.
So, using an aluminum skinned floating "lid" made from Reflectics (sp) to minimize air contact in the mash and after boil during cooling and whirlpool, would be helpful.  Yes?
With a pot you can boil water in it to enhance the oxide layer - John Palmer has outlined that procedure.

Reflected, not sure if the layer is as robust as required. Anyone know?

I can only speak for myself and to a certain extent Bryan when recommending an actual lid. I purchased pots from the same line and the 8 qt lid fits inside the 12 qt pot. The 12 qt. Lid in the 16 qt. Pot, etc.

Here are some pictures:

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161020/b3564c830da008836dd667d043273327.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161020/33f4a9d2581082832ba54b0bd734f0ea.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161020/64cd8d6ed5116d126ccfd11514c72eb1.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161020/469513eb02392c40aa295c0cc2b694c9.jpg)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 21, 2016, 11:22:34 AM
Don't disagree.  The one place where I think it may make a difference is Belgium.  The amount of copper is staggering.

Your post had me thinking on the subject for a couple days.

Belgium is tough to nail down in more than one way. Like Germany, modernity is there in larger breweries (Duvel, Stella, etc.). Also if you want to speculate, even some of the Trappist breweries (Chimay, Orval, Achel, etc.) show clear signs of modernity. Rochefort? Westmalle? Can't deny the copper there. But are the kettles and tuns lined? I don't know. Are the grants severed and lines tied to the tun returns as stated in Kunze? I don't know.

One also has to concede that like Germany, Belgium has so many regional breweries and regional specialty beers that don't fall into the wheelhouse of Low Oxygen. Couple that with the fact that Belgian yeast strains have so much character unto themselves that they may mask oxidation flavors. A neutral ale yeast is likely to be less forgiving.

There is also the consideration that once you implement Low Oxygen brewing methods, there is nothing that precludes you from re-working time honored recipes to give traditional flavors in the new process, i.e. catering grain bills and other ingredients to the process. Belgian styles in particular could see a major overhaul in the Low Oxygen idiom, maybe requiring less of the sugars and syrup approach as before and relying more on the great malt flavors to provide that characteristic.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 21, 2016, 12:04:35 PM
Lodo brewers - I know I read it somewhere, but can't find the reference. Roughly how much sulfate do I get from 100 ppm SMB? Is it 25-ish? I know the recommendation is to add no extra sulfate for lagers and to get the Ca from CaCl2, but I'm doing an APA soon and would like to dial in my sulfate levels for a beer of that type.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 12:07:47 PM
Lodo brewers - I know I read it somewhere, but can't find the reference. Roughly how much sulfate do I get from 100 ppm SMB? Is it 25-ish? I know the recommendation is to add no extra sulfate for lagers and to get the Ca from CaCl2, but I'm doing an APA soon and would like to dial in my sulfate levels for a beer of that type.

24ppm Sodium, 75ppm Sulfate.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 21, 2016, 12:08:53 PM
Lodo brewers - I know I read it somewhere, but can't find the reference. Roughly how much sulfate do I get from 100 ppm SMB? Is it 25-ish? I know the recommendation is to add no extra sulfate for lagers and to get the Ca from CaCl2, but I'm doing an APA soon and would like to dial in my sulfate levels for a beer of that type.

24ppm Sodium, 75ppm Sulfate.


Ok, had the Na confused with the sulfate. Thanks again.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 21, 2016, 12:11:34 PM
Lodo brewers - I know I read it somewhere, but can't find the reference. Roughly how much sulfate do I get from 100 ppm SMB? Is it 25-ish? I know the recommendation is to add no extra sulfate for lagers and to get the Ca from CaCl2, but I'm doing an APA soon and would like to dial in my sulfate levels for a beer of that type.

The sulfate potential if all the NaMeta is "used up" (100 ppm scavenged 20 ppm O₂) is 75 ppm. Most just assume that in their water profiles. I scale it in the spreadsheet based on dose rate.

You can get a more concrete number by using sulfite strips to determine how much your system consumes and estimate sulfate from that.

EDIT: Bryan beat me to it!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 12:12:15 PM
Lodo brewers - I know I read it somewhere, but can't find the reference. Roughly how much sulfate do I get from 100 ppm SMB? Is it 25-ish? I know the recommendation is to add no extra sulfate for lagers and to get the Ca from CaCl2, but I'm doing an APA soon and would like to dial in my sulfate levels for a beer of that type.

24ppm Sodium, 75ppm Sulfate.



Ok, had the Na confused with the sulfate. Thanks again.

Be careful with ale yeasts and SMB, they are not very tolerant of sulfur. I may start at 50 for an APA.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 21, 2016, 12:18:38 PM
Lodo brewers - I know I read it somewhere, but can't find the reference. Roughly how much sulfate do I get from 100 ppm SMB? Is it 25-ish? I know the recommendation is to add no extra sulfate for lagers and to get the Ca from CaCl2, but I'm doing an APA soon and would like to dial in my sulfate levels for a beer of that type.

24ppm Sodium, 75ppm Sulfate.



Ok, had the Na confused with the sulfate. Thanks again.

Be careful with ale yeasts and SMB, they are not very tolerant of sulfur. I may start at 50 for an APA.


That's my plan. I want to start low and work up with all my beers as you recommended. I just threw 100ppm out there as a reference.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 12:34:36 PM
Lodo brewers - I know I read it somewhere, but can't find the reference. Roughly how much sulfate do I get from 100 ppm SMB? Is it 25-ish? I know the recommendation is to add no extra sulfate for lagers and to get the Ca from CaCl2, but I'm doing an APA soon and would like to dial in my sulfate levels for a beer of that type.

24ppm Sodium, 75ppm Sulfate.



Ok, had the Na confused with the sulfate. Thanks again.

Be careful with ale yeasts and SMB, they are not very tolerant of sulfur. I may start at 50 for an APA.


That's my plan. I want to start low and work up with all my beers as you recommended. I just threw 100ppm out there as a reference.

Cool! Good luck and report back.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 21, 2016, 12:35:40 PM
Lodo brewers - I know I read it somewhere, but can't find the reference. Roughly how much sulfate do I get from 100 ppm SMB? Is it 25-ish? I know the recommendation is to add no extra sulfate for lagers and to get the Ca from CaCl2, but I'm doing an APA soon and would like to dial in my sulfate levels for a beer of that type.

24ppm Sodium, 75ppm Sulfate.



Ok, had the Na confused with the sulfate. Thanks again.

Be careful with ale yeasts and SMB, they are not very tolerant of sulfur. I may start at 50 for an APA.


That's my plan. I want to start low and work up with all my beers as you recommended. I just threw 100ppm out there as a reference.

Cool! Good luck and report back.


Definitely will. Looking forward to seeing the overall impact, but especially on the hops in this case.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 21, 2016, 12:46:24 PM
Don't disagree.  The one place where I think it may make a difference is Belgium.  The amount of copper is staggering.

Your post had me thinking on the subject for a couple days.

Belgium is tough to nail down in more than one way. Like Germany, modernity is there in larger breweries (Duvel, Stella, etc.). Also if you want to speculate, even some of the Trappist breweries (Chimay, Orval, Achel, etc.) show clear signs of modernity. Rochefort? Westmalle? Can't deny the copper there. But are the kettles and tuns lined? I don't know. Are the grants severed and lines tied to the tun returns as stated in Kunze? I don't know.

One also has to concede that like Germany, Belgium has so many regional breweries and regional specialty beers that don't fall into the wheelhouse of Low Oxygen. Couple that with the fact that Belgian yeast strains have so much character unto themselves that they may mask oxidation flavors. A neutral ale yeast is likely to be less forgiving.

There is also the consideration that once you implement Low Oxygen brewing methods, there is nothing that precludes you from re-working time honored recipes to give traditional flavors in the new process, i.e. catering grain bills and other ingredients to the process. Belgian styles in particular could see a major overhaul in the Low Oxygen idiom, maybe requiring less of the sugars and syrup approach as before and relying more on the great malt flavors to provide that characteristic.
The amount of copper at PU was staggering. The guide said the brewmaster insisted on copper when the new brewhouse was built ~1999. From her talk I infer that they were after Maillard reactions from the boil. The new brewhouse had the bank of grants on the mash tuns, but she said they are only used to draw off sample to test the wort.

The open fermented unfiltered unpasteurized PU from the 40 Hectoliter barrels in the cellar was one of the best beers I have ever had.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 01:06:00 PM
Talk of Copper and swan necks always make me chuckle. Here is what Kunze has to say:
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14724541_794295327379736_5464444542705306067_n.jpg?oh=eec1ce8789ababe4dac9ad132908b409&oe=588DCE69)

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14650068_794298864046049_3345331028275824176_n.jpg?oh=0b0462ccedb09f30c0efedcdad1e6bc4&oe=588E7129)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 21, 2016, 01:49:03 PM
Talk of Copper and swan necks always make me chuckle. Here is what Kunze has to say:
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14724541_794295327379736_5464444542705306067_n.jpg?oh=eec1ce8789ababe4dac9ad132908b409&oe=588DCE69)

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14650068_794298864046049_3345331028275824176_n.jpg?oh=0b0462ccedb09f30c0efedcdad1e6bc4&oe=588E7129)

There is also this snippet, which I find interesting as well:

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/9ca610f8a16e35b13aa9c3eeb9818ad3.png)

Of course you can't generalize the ENTIRE brewing industry from these few excerpts but it is well known that grants and coppers are preserved for aesthetic reasons in continental European countries.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 21, 2016, 01:55:27 PM
Belgium is tough to nail down in more than one way.

I know several Belgian brewers that make world-class beer (100 on ratebeer, top 10 in their class) and do absolutely nothing to prevent HSA.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 01:57:42 PM
Belgium is tough to nail down in more than one way.

I know several Belgian brewers that make world-class beer (100 on ratebeer, top 10 in their class) and do absolutely nothing to prevent HSA.

Breweries of large size? If so, they have a great advantage.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 21, 2016, 01:59:04 PM
Belgium is tough to nail down in more than one way.

I know several Belgian brewers that make world-class beer (100 on ratebeer, top 10 in their class) and do absolutely nothing to prevent HSA.

I don't dispute that. I think the rest of the post you pulled from states why it may be less important in certain beers:

One also has to concede that like Germany, Belgium has so many regional breweries and regional specialty beers that don't fall into the wheelhouse of Low Oxygen. Couple that with the fact that Belgian yeast strains have so much character unto themselves that they may mask oxidation flavors. A neutral ale yeast is likely to be less forgiving.

That being said, Bryan has stated numerous times that ALL of his beers have improved with Low O2 brewing, Pale Ale included.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 21, 2016, 02:02:23 PM
Belgium is tough to nail down in more than one way.

I know several Belgian brewers that make world-class beer (100 on ratebeer, top 10 in their class) and do absolutely nothing to prevent HSA.

Breweries of large size? If so, they have a great advantage.

Not that big. Dolle Brouwers and Struise Brouwers.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 21, 2016, 02:10:17 PM
Talk of Copper and swan necks always make me chuckle. Here is what Kunze has to say:
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14724541_794295327379736_5464444542705306067_n.jpg?oh=eec1ce8789ababe4dac9ad132908b409&oe=588DCE69)

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14650068_794298864046049_3345331028275824176_n.jpg?oh=0b0462ccedb09f30c0efedcdad1e6bc4&oe=588E7129)

There is also this snippet, which I find interesting as well:

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/9ca610f8a16e35b13aa9c3eeb9818ad3.png)

Of course you can't generalize the ENTIRE brewing industry from these few excerpts but it is well known that grants and coppers are preserved for aesthetic reasons in continental European countries.
PU No longer using the grants supports that.

The blurb on the copper being reused for aesthetic reasons is still true. Sierra Nevada has had retired GEA Huppmann coppersmiths come out of retirement to make the copper surrounds for new SS brewhouses in Chico and Mills River.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 21, 2016, 02:34:19 PM
Belgium is tough to nail down in more than one way.

I know several Belgian brewers that make world-class beer (100 on ratebeer, top 10 in their class) and do absolutely nothing to prevent HSA.

Breweries of large size? If so, they have a great advantage.

Not that big. Dolle Brouwers and Struise Brouwers.

Also, saw that Van Eecke and Van Honsebrouck used about 100 year old mash filters.

Bavik was the most modern Brewery I saw over there.  I preferred most of the smaller breweries.  Except for the Petrus Aged Pale, in foudres of course.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 21, 2016, 02:56:08 PM
Check out the copper grant as well.

(http://i.imgur.com/TLrjkz1.png)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 21, 2016, 03:07:58 PM
There's still more potential for oxygen ingress at the homebrew scale.  I'm not against trying low o2 for all styles.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 21, 2016, 04:11:46 PM
Anyone care to reference to a domestic IPA with LO traits?  Gonna guess maybe the NEIPA stuff.  For extra credit, tell me how the heck you LO dry hop ;D 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 21, 2016, 04:26:17 PM
Anyone care to reference to a domestic IPA with LO traits?  Gonna guess maybe the NEIPA stuff.  For extra credit, tell me how the heck you LO dry hop ;D
Hop cannons? There are such devices.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
Custom pre-isomerized hop extract dosed in line to spund. :)

Otherwise dryhop in primary, at the tail end of fermentation, spund or add add sugar to keg.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on October 21, 2016, 04:37:58 PM
Why pre-imsomerized if it is for dry hopping? Wouldn't something more along the lines of a distillate be appropriate.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on October 21, 2016, 04:40:39 PM
Hmm.. that's curious. The NEIPAs tend to talk about a charge of dry hops during the end of fermentation. Could oxygen (or lack thereof) play any role in the purportedly different flavor profile they achieve? Though I could be forgetting something - do they do another dry hop charge later on? Can't remember.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 04:54:18 PM
Hmm.. that's curious. The NEIPAs tend to talk about a charge of dry hops during the end of fermentation. Could oxygen (or lack thereof) play any role in the purportedly different flavor profile they achieve? Though I could be forgetting something - do they do another dry hop charge later on? Can't remember.

Funny you should bring this all up!

Hill Farmstead.

Watch this video:
https://vimeo.com/164734733

In this video you can see:
Spunding (really capping of the fermenters)
A state of the art German Braukon system (complete with Vormaischer.. goosebumps)
Weyermann malts
And at 4:06 you can clearly see a copy of Kunze on the right side of the table.

 8)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 21, 2016, 05:06:31 PM
Hmm.. that's curious. The NEIPAs tend to talk about a charge of dry hops during the end of fermentation. Could oxygen (or lack thereof) play any role in the purportedly different flavor profile they achieve? Though I could be forgetting something - do they do another dry hop charge later on? Can't remember.
This talks of having 1 ppb or less O2. Kimmich adds one dose when still active.
https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 21, 2016, 05:15:52 PM
Hmm.. that's curious. The NEIPAs tend to talk about a charge of dry hops during the end of fermentation. Could oxygen (or lack thereof) play any role in the purportedly different flavor profile they achieve? Though I could be forgetting something - do they do another dry hop charge later on? Can't remember.

Funny you should bring this all up!

Hill Farmstead.

Watch this video:
https://vimeo.com/164734733

In this video you can see:
Spunding (really capping of the fermenters)
A state of the art German Braukon system (complete with Vormaischer.. goosebumps)
Weyermann malts
And at 4:06 you can clearly see a copy of Kunze on the right side of the table.

 8)

I saw a Vormaischer in action at Schönram, and concluded it has to be flushed with N2 or CO2 to avoid O2. Is that your understanding?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 21, 2016, 05:17:27 PM
Hmm.. that's curious. The NEIPAs tend to talk about a charge of dry hops during the end of fermentation. Could oxygen (or lack thereof) play any role in the purportedly different flavor profile they achieve? Though I could be forgetting something - do they do another dry hop charge later on? Can't remember.
This talks of having 1 ppb or less O2. Kimmich adds one dose when still active.
https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

Yep, thought it was known the NE guys are O2 conscious (but took a guess they might be complete LO).  This confirms my suspicions they are brewing IPA just like a lager.  Tastes like lager too and honestly, not my idea for an IPA but still tasty stuff.  Very drinkable. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 05:20:25 PM
Hmm.. that's curious. The NEIPAs tend to talk about a charge of dry hops during the end of fermentation. Could oxygen (or lack thereof) play any role in the purportedly different flavor profile they achieve? Though I could be forgetting something - do they do another dry hop charge later on? Can't remember.

Funny you should bring this all up!

Hill Farmstead.

Watch this video:
https://vimeo.com/164734733

In this video you can see:
Spunding (really capping of the fermenters)
A state of the art German Braukon system (complete with Vormaischer.. goosebumps)
Weyermann malts
And at 4:06 you can clearly see a copy of Kunze on the right side of the table.

 8)

I saw a Vormaischer in action at Schönram, and concluded it has to be flushed with N2 or CO2 to avoid O2. Is that your understanding?

Awesome, I love them!

Yea It has to be flushed with something. Gas or degassed water first.

Did you get to talk with Eric at Schonram?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 21, 2016, 05:33:06 PM
Hmm.. that's curious. The NEIPAs tend to talk about a charge of dry hops during the end of fermentation. Could oxygen (or lack thereof) play any role in the purportedly different flavor profile they achieve? Though I could be forgetting something - do they do another dry hop charge later on? Can't remember.

Funny you should bring this all up!

Hill Farmstead.

Watch this video:
https://vimeo.com/164734733

In this video you can see:
Spunding (really capping of the fermenters)
A state of the art German Braukon system (complete with Vormaischer.. goosebumps)
Weyermann malts
And at 4:06 you can clearly see a copy of Kunze on the right side of the table.

 8)

Of course Hill Farmstead is not alone as an owner of a BrauKon system:

Allagash:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/f14197c42d0e7969c6cd73309eca5e7d.jpg)

Troegs:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/6ba7e5db25300d97fec84e9da0060dfa.jpg)

Uinta:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/29a5c8e0f7caf3f938af9764dddb3d05.png)

Left Hand:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/d33c0458f168542cb3f67c05504927fa.jpg)

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 21, 2016, 05:46:02 PM
Hmm.. that's curious. The NEIPAs tend to talk about a charge of dry hops during the end of fermentation. Could oxygen (or lack thereof) play any role in the purportedly different flavor profile they achieve? Though I could be forgetting something - do they do another dry hop charge later on? Can't remember.

Funny you should bring this all up!

Hill Farmstead.

Watch this video:
https://vimeo.com/164734733

In this video you can see:
Spunding (really capping of the fermenters)
A state of the art German Braukon system (complete with Vormaischer.. goosebumps)
Weyermann malts
And at 4:06 you can clearly see a copy of Kunze on the right side of the table.

 8)

I saw a Vormaischer in action at Schönram, and concluded it has to be flushed with N2 or CO2 to avoid O2. Is that your understanding?

Awesome, I love them!

Yea It has to be flushed with something. Gas or degassed water first.

Did you get to talk with Eric at Schonram?
No, the lady who does the tours was a little confused as to how two Americans had ended up there. She asked if I knew about Eric Toft. I said yes, explained he was an American from Wyoming. Then it was asked how did I know. Explained through the Hops book by Stan Hieronymus, which she didn't know.

The bus with a group from Munich ran late due to a stau, and we were add ones to that larger group. We started the tour about 18:15, so he was probably long gone when we got on the tour, and had not seen him in the Biergarten Earlier.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on October 21, 2016, 07:13:32 PM
It's mentioned in the byo article, but the yeast can release aglycones from the dry hops, I think Wyeast 1318, WLP644 and conan yeast are ok, but not cal ale https://www.uclouvain.be/cps/ucl/doc/inbr/documents/presentation-luk-daenen.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 21, 2016, 07:44:06 PM
One of the best improvements I ever made to my IPA was DH into bright beer well off the yeast so not really drinking the biotransformation Kool Aid.  Going back to LO dry hopping techniques, just how much sugar would one need to add for dryhopping?  Then what what would be the differences between sugar vs smb vs ascorbic acid? 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 21, 2016, 07:59:14 PM
One of the best improvements I ever made to my IPA was DH into bright beer well off the yeast so not really drinking the biotransformation Kool Aid


Same here, so that's where I'm torn. For IPA (which is obviously drunk young for hop freshness), I'm likely to just use a combo of SMB, Brewtan and/or homemade Brewbrite and hop the way I know I prefer. Best case, I gain a little more shelf life on my hop character. Regardless, the stuff never lasts long anyway - and is damn tasty.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 21, 2016, 08:05:12 PM
Regardless, the stuff never lasts long anyway - and is damn tasty.

Same here.  Last IPA I did a split DH to test hops blends.  Maybe I will do a DH redox shootout.  SMB vs ascorbic acid.  If I get another week or 2 I'd be happy. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on October 21, 2016, 09:05:12 PM
Are there any free papers or cheap books on LODO brewing?  I'm interested in the chemical reactions that cause oxidation of malt polyphenols etc. but don't want to spend $200 on books by Narziss and Kunze.  Also, if the highlighted passages above from Kunze are any indication he doesn't get into the chemistry of how oxygen causes these reactions.  Does Fix get into the chemistry?  Any free publications?  I acquired a bunch of brewery manuals and Center for Brewing Studies seminar notebooks at an estate sale last year but they are from the late 70's.  They mention possible staling from wort oxidation but also say it is speculative.  Again from the 70's.  I could do a Google search for papers but if you guys know of any it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on October 21, 2016, 09:14:31 PM
One of the best improvements I ever made to my IPA was DH into bright beer well off the yeast so not really drinking the biotransformation Kool Aid.  Going back to LO dry hopping techniques, just how much sugar would one need to add for dryhopping?  Then what what would be the differences between sugar vs smb vs ascorbic acid?
Sorry, but it's science, not Kool Aid. Can't say I've noticed it first hand with sacch, though, only in a split batch 'Merica clone where the part with brett added at bottling came to life in a big way. Brett is of course a good o2 scavenger, which helps.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 21, 2016, 10:53:29 PM
Are there any free papers or cheap books on LODO brewing?  I'm interested in the chemical reactions that cause oxidation of malt polyphenols etc. but don't want to spend $200 on books by Narziss and Kunze.  Also, if the highlighted passages above from Kunze are any indication he doesn't get into the chemistry of how oxygen causes these reactions.  Does Fix get into the chemistry?  Any free publications?  I acquired a bunch of brewery manuals and Center for Brewing Studies seminar notebooks at an estate sale last year but they are from the late 70's.  They mention possible staling from wort oxidation but also say it is speculative.  Again from the 70's.  I could do a Google search for papers but if you guys know of any it would be appreciated.

If this stuff interests you, Kunze is the best investment you could make, text wise. Hands down. It's the Low O2 bible.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 21, 2016, 11:05:01 PM
Just ordered it: https://www.vlb-berlin.org/kunze - in German. It's expensive as hell and it's gonna kill me :(
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 21, 2016, 11:22:11 PM

Sorry, but it's science, not Kool Aid. Can't say I've noticed it first hand with sacch, though, only in a split batch 'Merica clone where the part with brett added at bottling came to life in a big way. Brett is of course a good o2 scavenger, which helps.
Meant no disrespect with the Kool Aid comment, just different strokes/different folks or rather brewing is equal parts art and science.  I would appreciate your insight into why different yeast strains matter with this.  Completely lost.  I am a huge fan of SO4/Whitbread for ales. 

BBoy: fairly certain the highlighted pages posted are merely the chapter ending bullet points.  I plan to scrounge a little to find a used copy somehow.  I am not easily impressed, but the the posted pages blow my mind.  Reminds me of reading Noonan the first time. 




Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on October 21, 2016, 11:30:05 PM
Those  books  are over 1K on Amazon.  $200 from the publisher is a little more than I can spend ATM and I can't read German.  I'm finding a little on Google but even the scientific papers are speculative.  I'm sure I'll end up finding good sources scouring the reference pages though it may take a while. 

N. Hashimoto looks promising.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 11:36:31 PM
Yea with decent googlefu you will get some hits. You won't find any free copies of Kunze though!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 21, 2016, 11:41:02 PM
Kunze is available in a variety of languages(English). Narziss is only in German. I have translated Die band 2. I am not copyright savvy, but I think it would be very frowned upon for me to "distribute" that or my personal highlighted and digitized Kunze
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 21, 2016, 11:46:39 PM
Kunze is available in English.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 21, 2016, 11:46:51 PM
Sorry, but it's science, not Kool Aid. Can't say I've noticed it first hand with sacch, though, only in a split batch 'Merica clone where the part with brett added at bottling came to life in a big way. Brett is of course a good o2 scavenger, which helps.


For the record, of course biotransformation is a real thing. I'm saying, on the whole,  I don't care for the flavor of biotransformation in beer as much as the clean hop flavors from dry hopping clear beer. Personal preference. I do love Firestone beers and I know that they dry hop in primary, but I like my beers best dry hopped after the yeast has dropped, and also like the longevity of hop character that goes with it (as there is no yeast dropping to drag down hop character with it). That and Vinnie C dry hops clear beer and has been known to make good beer, too.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on October 22, 2016, 08:57:51 AM

Sorry, but it's science, not Kool Aid. Can't say I've noticed it first hand with sacch, though, only in a split batch 'Merica clone where the part with brett added at bottling came to life in a big way. Brett is of course a good o2 scavenger, which helps.
Meant no disrespect with the Kool Aid comment, just different strokes/different folks or rather brewing is equal parts art and science.  I would appreciate your insight into why different yeast strains matter with this.  Completely lost.  I am a huge fan of SO4/Whitbread for ales. 

BBoy: fairly certain the highlighted pages posted are merely the chapter ending bullet points.  I plan to scrounge a little to find a used copy somehow.  I am not easily impressed, but the the posted pages blow my mind.  Reminds me of reading Noonan the first time.
I don't have a great understanding of the chemistry, but there seems to be more to it than the betaglucosidase enzyme, which is more common in brett.
The hop extracts seem like a great idea, although it would be good to find them in smaller doses than this. http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Glycosides


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Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 23, 2016, 12:52:39 PM
Going though some Kunze this morning, this was in stuff I came across. Just some more food for thought! (http://uploads.Tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/557e0e054321fdbb54c7ff0001acc5a8.png)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: reverseapachemaster on October 23, 2016, 05:03:52 PM
Are there any free papers or cheap books on LODO brewing?  I'm interested in the chemical reactions that cause oxidation of malt polyphenols etc. but don't want to spend $200 on books by Narziss and Kunze.  Also, if the highlighted passages above from Kunze are any indication he doesn't get into the chemistry of how oxygen causes these reactions.  Does Fix get into the chemistry?  Any free publications?  I acquired a bunch of brewery manuals and Center for Brewing Studies seminar notebooks at an estate sale last year but they are from the late 70's.  They mention possible staling from wort oxidation but also say it is speculative.  Again from the 70's.  I could do a Google search for papers but if you guys know of any it would be appreciated.

Kunze and other brewing texts might be available through circulation in a large city's public library or a large public library's ability to source the book from other public libraries. If you happen to live near a university with a brewing or food science program then they might have a copy or be able to obtain a copy on loan from another school. (Might have to slip a student a few bucks to make the request for you.)

There is a lot of research ongoing about oxidative reactions in food (not just beer). There are a number of brewing and food science journals out there with published articles on the subject. Generally these publications sit behind paywalls or are on paid databases but public libraries and college libraries tend to have at least some access so you might be able to find more useful information for free or for the cost of a library card.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 23, 2016, 09:16:30 PM
There has been such an interest since Bryan made this thread that I'll be putting together a summary of the key process points, equipment concerns and other information concerning Low O2 brewing.

Expect it by the end of this week.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 23, 2016, 09:43:18 PM
Going though some Kunze this morning, this was in stuff I came across. Just some more food for thought! (http://uploads.Tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/557e0e054321fdbb54c7ff0001acc5a8.png)

So, what does this mean?  Obviously Brewtan B is a tannin.  But what excatly would cause polyphenol production in the mash?  Is there more information on this from Kunze?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 23, 2016, 09:57:49 PM
I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 23, 2016, 09:59:17 PM
Going though some Kunze this morning, this was in stuff I came across. Just some more food for thought! (http://uploads.Tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/557e0e054321fdbb54c7ff0001acc5a8.png)

So, what does this mean?  Obviously Brewtan B is a tannin.  But what excatly would cause polyphenol production in the mash?  Is there more information on this from Kunze?

Could they be solubulized (sp?) in the mash and leeched from the grain?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 23, 2016, 10:01:39 PM
I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.

Maybe it is indicating that polyphenols in mash = good for anti-oxidation, but polyphenols post boil = not good for stability?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 23, 2016, 10:02:21 PM
I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.

Maybe it is indicating that polyphenols in mash = good for anti-oxidation, but polyphenols post boil = not good for stability?



Yeah, that's my assumption (or WAG).
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 23, 2016, 11:12:02 PM
Going though some Kunze this morning, this was in stuff I came across. Just some more food for thought! (http://uploads.Tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/557e0e054321fdbb54c7ff0001acc5a8.png)

So, what does this mean?  Obviously Brewtan B is a tannin.  But what excatly would cause polyphenol production in the mash?  Is there more information on this from Kunze?

I think Bryan was just pointing out a section of Kunze talking about hop oils as that was where the conversation had turned.

Here is the full excerpt:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/e13d1acaf360795c89c624643b7a4216.png)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 23, 2016, 11:36:40 PM
Definitely makes more sense in that context.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 24, 2016, 12:42:01 AM
Got it, so mash hopping could provide some benefit, although if you're already going full low-O2 it may be a waste of money.

But a longer whirlpool for a hoppy beer may have protection from the large late additions.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 24, 2016, 12:49:33 AM
Got it, so mash hopping could provide some benefit, although if you're already going full low-O2 it may be a waste of money.

But a longer whirlpool for a hoppy beer may have protection from the large late additions.
Sorry guys I got tied up today. I meant to follow up with more context, thanks to monk for following up. I feel if mash hopping where a "thing" Kunze would talk about it, but I have yet to find anywhere he does. Maybe tomorrow I will post some more discussion points.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 24, 2016, 12:55:18 AM
Got it, so mash hopping could provide some benefit, although if you're already going full low-O2 it may be a waste of money.

But a longer whirlpool for a hoppy beer may have protection from the large late additions.

Well you have to be careful of that, these excerpts are about boiling and thermal stress

Quickly pulled some excerpts out from Kunze
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/820e7d831bc60ffe0effac010f8038d4.png)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/47b5fb20380ef4f426354fccfb9ff849.png)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/93232fbb8c2096f4593db17e10b46229.png)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/d19c1a7b06c4fe1fc3e9c19dbd6f9478.png)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/0931eb4d17bd49bf3987e67b87aa34e6.png)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on October 24, 2016, 04:28:49 AM
I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.

Count me as really confused.  I swear I read a paper that said the low oxygen environment prevents the staling  off-flavors but encourages haze formation and recommended PVPP  to be added when limiting oxygen exposure in brewing to counter that effect.  This is  why I want the science behind it.  If I have the science I can make informed decisions on LODO. There have to be readily available sources not costing the price of two brand new italian made conry kegs. 
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 24, 2016, 08:51:43 AM
I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.

Count me as really confused.  I swear I read a paper that said the low oxygen environment prevents the staling  off-flavors but encourages haze formation and recommended PVPP  to be added when limiting oxygen exposure in brewing to counter that effect.  This is  why I want the science behind it.  If I have the science I can make informed decisions on LODO. There have to be readily available sources not costing the price of two brand new italian made conry kegs.

I cannot quote a specific paper or section from Kunze off the top of my head (although I'm sure he discusses it),  but I can say with certainty, given the last 6 months or so that I have been corresponding with Bryan, that I have never seen anything but clear beer.

It sounds like what you are describing, if true, would be mitigated by utilizing good process techniques.

EDIT: a quick text search through Kunze yielded some 20+ hits on the word haze. All mitigation strategies were process based so I'd say Low O2 alone would not be a main contributor. Things like malt crop, malting, pH management, enzymatic action, conversion, etc. have much more to do with it.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 24, 2016, 01:11:09 PM
In my 200+ batches of low oxygen brewing, I have never encountered hazy beer..
Here are some photos of mash, boil, pre-yeast pitch and finished. I only add whirfloc, to the boil.

Mash:
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13891877_756791754463427_6733253776951620704_n.jpg?oh=56a01448e5a84a4344cc9446e43f0bc2&oe=588D6DB9)

Pre-boil
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13938450_756791694463433_6688096914818065858_n.jpg?oh=bdc0ea8f89d08b3dfc8674d6c25e4f46&oe=588A1C4B)

Boil:
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14666084_792699830872619_6527780381529998052_n.jpg?oh=9983131800f4d65db55c4f06e5b503cd&oe=58AA819F)

Pre- yeast pitching:
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14448832_779996105476325_5618556204654808579_n.jpg?oh=c1a2773c45d638b861e1304af32fdd37&oe=58606C17)

Finished
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14724538_792699867539282_6345099211923211104_n.jpg?oh=eb90821745da0371516425b6130037e3&oe=5897C296)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 24, 2016, 03:58:25 PM
Just chiming to report that I think I found a slight improvement in malt character when simply doing a 30m boil rather than 60m.  That has to be one of the easiest things to try in the LO playbook.  I did it solely for time savings but the improvement was most welcome. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 24, 2016, 04:10:04 PM
Just chiming to report that I think I found a slight improvement in malt character when simply doing a 30m boil rather than 60m.  That has to be one of the easiest things to try in the LO playbook.  I did it solely for time savings but the improvement was most welcome.

What is your evaporation rate? And preboil volume?

I would say fine tuning evaporation % is preferable to decreasing boil time.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 24, 2016, 04:14:17 PM


I would say fine tuning evaporation % is preferable to decreasing boil time.

I would agree with that as well.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on October 24, 2016, 04:29:17 PM
Just chiming to report that I think I found a slight improvement in malt character when simply doing a 30m boil rather than 60m.  That has to be one of the easiest things to try in the LO playbook.  I did it solely for time savings but the improvement was most welcome.

Wasn't Denny singing the praises of an IPA he had at a homebrew meeting that was 30 min mash and 30 min boil? I think evaporation rate is key more so than time but I don't see a problem with 30 min boil.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 24, 2016, 04:51:43 PM
Touche'.  60m boil off rate was 15% on average.  Slightly weather dependent in the garage. ;D  30m is clocking in well at half that and I am hitting volumes accurately.  I have been mashing 30m a few years now. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: mabrungard on October 24, 2016, 09:38:58 PM
How does this  short boil jive with Low kilned malts that will supposedly throw DMS if they're not boiled long enough?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 24, 2016, 10:36:13 PM
How does this  short boil jive with Low kilned malts that will supposedly throw DMS if they're not boiled long enough?

Yea you have to be careful. For instance my boil off is 6%,  I need use a 70 minute boil and a higher boil ph( 5:45-5.5( which helps with dms as well).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebriscoe on October 25, 2016, 02:45:28 AM
On my setup the rise from Sach Temps to boiling takes 20-30 min (lautering at same time). The majority of that time is 180+ and the dms precursor is converting to dms and there is no boil off. When boiling Temps are reached the lid comes off and out comes a ton of corn aromas. Boil for 60, have yet to detect any dms in the final product.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 25, 2016, 12:51:56 PM
How does this  short boil jive with Low kilned malts that will supposedly throw DMS if they're not boiled long enough?

Yea you have to be careful. For instance my boil off is 6%,  I need use a 70 minute boil and a higher boil ph( 5:45-5.5( which helps with dms as well).

How does a higher boil pH help mitigate dms formation?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 01:06:59 PM
How does this  short boil jive with Low kilned malts that will supposedly throw DMS if they're not boiled long enough?

Yea you have to be careful. For instance my boil off is 6%,  I need use a 70 minute boil and a higher boil ph( 5:45-5.5( which helps with dms as well).



How does a higher boil pH help mitigate dms formation?



(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14718585_796779300464672_7262842382061797391_n.jpg?oh=38906e1956570fda194bd84564593a86&oe=58A95FBE)


There isn't a great deal on the subject, but I can tell you from first hand if I boil at a lower pH say 5.2 and boil for 60 minutes I will have dms, 5.4-5.5 I don't.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 01:09:16 PM
On my setup the rise from Sach Temps to boiling takes 20-30 min (lautering at same time). The majority of that time is 180+ and the dms precursor is converting to dms and there is no boil off. When boiling Temps are reached the lid comes off and out comes a ton of corn aromas. Boil for 60, have yet to detect any dms in the final product.

With all my refinements I have concluded that because my system is so tight, I have massive amounts of DMS all the way though 50 minutes of the boil. Its like a light switch is flicked at about 60 minutes, and by 65 its zero.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 25, 2016, 01:25:53 PM
There isn't a great deal on the subject, but I can tell you from first hand if I boil at a lower pH say 5.2 and boil for 60 minutes I will have dms, 5.4-5.5 I don't.


So I assume you drop pH at packaging, or no?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 01:28:06 PM
Never at packaging, the yeast do that for me. But I always do a knock out sauergut addition to 5.1 or below.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on October 25, 2016, 02:01:06 PM
How do add the sauergut?  I have always added it in the mash. Wouldn't that add unwanted starch and husk material into the kettle?


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Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 25, 2016, 02:16:20 PM
How do add the sauergut?  I have always added it in the mash. Wouldn't that add unwanted starch and husk material into the kettle?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bryan's SG has a very nice, bright color. No sediment. Wort leftover from a batch gets fed back into the reactor so it's all Low O2 wort, all the time. No starch or husk issues that I am aware of.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 25, 2016, 02:32:46 PM
I think your malt choice is still the biggest factor in determining the risk of DMS.  Sounds like the Barke stuff is quite undermodified.  Most all the other malt is a non issue nowadays.  Very interesting tho as it makes perfect sense that LO brewing is tighter and creates a larger DMS risk than non LO (NLO?;D) brewing.  In my mind, we're really splitting hairs since we're comparing a very low simmer of 60m versus a typical more violent boil of 30m where the evap rate is similar (<10%).  I still have to try and find ways to shave time off the brew since I have so little time.  It's not everyday I read something that blows my mind about brewing but the cite about pH and DMS did it... 

I'll let Bryan elaborate on sauergut but suffice to say there have been very interesting work recently about it over at GBF! 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 25, 2016, 02:40:37 PM
Sounds like the Barke stuff is quite undermodified.

I'd say quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 02:50:05 PM
I think your malt choice is still the biggest factor in determining the risk of DMS.  Sounds like the Barke stuff is quite undermodified.  Most all the other malt is a non issue nowadays.  Very interesting tho as it makes perfect sense that LO brewing is tighter and creates a larger DMS risk than non LO (NLO?;D) brewing.  In my mind, we're really splitting hairs since we're comparing a very low simmer of 60m versus a typical more violent boil of 30m where the evap rate is similar (<10%).  I still have to try and find ways to shave time off the brew since I have so little time.  It's not everyday I read something that blows my mind about brewing but the cite about pH and DMS did it... 

I'll let Bryan elaborate on sauergut but suffice to say there have been very interesting work recently about it over at GBF!

I will disagree, I have replicated(DMS) , with all weyermann( barke, regular and floor malt), best, avagard, and schill.

Barke MA sheet for reference: http://weyermann.de/pdf_analyses/R205-001360-01.pdf

You have to be careful about the vigorous boil, Reference TBI above.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 02:51:49 PM
How do add the sauergut?  I have always added it in the mash. Wouldn't that add unwanted starch and husk material into the kettle?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is a no husk material whatsoever in mine, its a pure culture. If you have ever had a beer ( W) comes to mind, that has fresh boil wort flavor in the finish its from a knockout sauergut addition.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 03:07:55 PM
It's not everyday I read something that blows my mind about brewing but the cite about pH and DMS did it... 



You need to get Kunze then, it will blow your mind with every page!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 25, 2016, 06:37:21 PM
It's not everyday I read something that blows my mind about brewing but the cite about pH and DMS did it... 



You need to get Kunze then, it will blow your mind with every page!

I am beginning to see this too.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 25, 2016, 06:39:22 PM
How does this  short boil jive with Low kilned malts that will supposedly throw DMS if they're not boiled long enough?

Yea you have to be careful. For instance my boil off is 6%,  I need use a 70 minute boil and a higher boil ph( 5:45-5.5( which helps with dms as well).



How does a higher boil pH help mitigate dms formation?



(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14718585_796779300464672_7262842382061797391_n.jpg?oh=38906e1956570fda194bd84564593a86&oe=58A95FBE)


There isn't a great deal on the subject, but I can tell you from first hand if I boil at a lower pH say 5.2 and boil for 60 minutes I will have dms, 5.4-5.5 I don't.

So you are running the majority of your mashes around 5.4-5.5 with a transfer to boil kettle around a similar pH?
I thought you indicated earlier that a lower pH of 5.2 results in clearer, lighter colored (more desired) wort?
I am confused...
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 25, 2016, 06:49:08 PM
So you are running the majority of your mashes around 5.4-5.5 with a transfer to boil kettle around a similar pH?
I thought you indicated earlier that a lower pH of 5.2 results in clearer, lighter colored (more desired) wort?
I am confused...

Kunze advocates 5.2 ish Mash pH.

Bryan talks about Kettle pH in the 5.4-5.5 region. Can you guess why? What would he use to get there?

Bryan also mentions a Knockout addition of Sauergut. What do you think is going on here?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 25, 2016, 09:34:09 PM
So you are running the majority of your mashes around 5.4-5.5 with a transfer to boil kettle around a similar pH?
I thought you indicated earlier that a lower pH of 5.2 results in clearer, lighter colored (more desired) wort?
I am confused...

Kunze advocates 5.2 ish Mash pH.

Bryan talks about Kettle pH in the 5.4-5.5 region. Can you guess why? What would he use to get there?

Bryan also mentions a Knockout addition of Sauergut. What do you think is going on here?

1. SMB additions....in the kettle though too?

2. Wort acidification to lower pH after boil?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 10:14:34 PM
No, I mash at 5.2pH with no sparge( using sauergut). When I lauter into the kettle I raise pH to around 5.5pH, to make better use of my hops, get a better hotbreak, and shorten DMS. Then I do a 10 minute addition of sauergut, to hit a knock out pH of 5.1 pH.

It seems counter-intuitive but here is why..

No sparge is THE best way to mash for low oxygen
5.2pH is the best mash pH
Normal breweries(big) sparge and will have a pH raise into the kettle because of this. Higher pH in the kettle has the above benefits and some more.
Also by raising my boil pH that allows me another addition of sauergut in the kettle(again like commerical breweries)

You can raise pH in the kettle a variety of ways, use whatever is the easiest for you.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 25, 2016, 10:39:15 PM
I assume the drop back down to 5.1 is  for crispness and stability?  One more thing -  am I right that SMB at the full dose will drive my target pH .2 UNDER target?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 10:43:13 PM
I assume the drop back down to 5.1 is  for crispness and stability?  One more thing -  am I right that SMB at the full dose will drive my target pH .2 UNDER target?

Yes and no, a big reason is for cold break. The yeast are going to drop the pH to where they need it anyways, but lowering it is going to reduce lag time as well.

I think it will be less than that, but it may not hurt to go off it.


Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 25, 2016, 10:45:30 PM
I assume the drop back down to 5.1 is  for crispness and stability?  One more thing -  am I right that SMB at the full dose will drive my target pH .2 UNDER target?

Yes and no, a big reason is for cold break. The yeast are going to drop the pH to where they need it anyways, but lowering it is going to reduce lag time as well.

I think it will be less than that, but it may not hurt to go off it.







Cool, thanks.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on October 25, 2016, 11:15:48 PM
When I lauter into the kettle I raise pH to around 5.5pH,
You can raise pH in the kettle a variety of ways, use whatever is the easiest for you.

For example?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 25, 2016, 11:23:49 PM
When I lauter into the kettle I raise pH to around 5.5pH,
You can raise pH in the kettle a variety of ways, use whatever is the easiest for you.

For example?

Addition of top up water, or a small amount of baking soda or chalk.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 25, 2016, 11:28:56 PM
When I lauter into the kettle I raise pH to around 5.5pH,
You can raise pH in the kettle a variety of ways, use whatever is the easiest for you.

For example?

Addition of top up water, or a small amount of baking soda or chalk.

There might be a spreadsheet to help with that.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 26, 2016, 12:34:41 AM
When I lauter into the kettle I raise pH to around 5.5pH,
You can raise pH in the kettle a variety of ways, use whatever is the easiest for you.

For example?

Addition of top up water, or a small amount of baking soda or chalk.
Pickling lime? That would be my choice. Any problems with that?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 26, 2016, 12:54:25 AM
When I lauter into the kettle I raise pH to around 5.5pH,
You can raise pH in the kettle a variety of ways, use whatever is the easiest for you.

For example?

Addition of top up water, or a small amount of baking soda or chalk.
Pickling lime? That would be my choice. Any problems with that?

I wouldn't mess with pickling lime in a pale beer.  You could easily sparge with RO and raise the pH in the kettle if you're so inclined.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 26, 2016, 12:56:14 AM
When I lauter into the kettle I raise pH to around 5.5pH,
You can raise pH in the kettle a variety of ways, use whatever is the easiest for you.

For example?

Addition of top up water, or a small amount of baking soda or chalk.
Pickling lime? That would be my choice. Any problems with that?

Sure. Whatever is easiest and works for you water profiles. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 26, 2016, 10:42:03 PM
Are yeast nutrients allowed in the low do process? Some have zinc in them, so would that cause a problem?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 26, 2016, 10:45:43 PM
Are yeast nutrients allowed in the low do process? Some have zinc in them, so would that cause a problem?

You can use nutrients. Zinc will be consumed(actually is needed) by the yeast.. But great question!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 26, 2016, 10:48:59 PM
Are yeast nutrients allowed in the low do process? Some have zinc in them, so would that cause a problem?

You can use nutrients. Zinc will be consumed(actually is needed) by the yeast.. But great question!

Thanks, i figured in such trace amounts that a healthy fermentation would make it negligible. Good to know.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 26, 2016, 10:57:57 PM
Are yeast nutrients allowed in the low do process? Some have zinc in them, so would that cause a problem?

You can use nutrients. Zinc will be consumed(actually is needed) by the yeast.. But great question!

Thanks, i figured in such trace amounts that a healthy fermentation would make it negligible. Good to know.

You can also promote zinc retention in the mash tun. I'd have to scan Kunze for the relevant pages but it's in there.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 26, 2016, 11:08:01 PM
Are yeast nutrients allowed in the low do process? Some have zinc in them, so would that cause a problem?

You can use nutrients. Zinc will be consumed(actually is needed) by the yeast.. But great question!

Thanks, i figured in such trace amounts that a healthy fermentation would make it negligible. Good to know.

You can also promote zinc retention in the mash tun. I'd have to scan Kunze for the relevant pages but it's in there.

Sauergut!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 26, 2016, 11:20:16 PM
Are yeast nutrients allowed in the low do process? Some have zinc in them, so would that cause a problem?

You can use nutrients. Zinc will be consumed(actually is needed) by the yeast.. But great question!

Thanks, i figured in such trace amounts that a healthy fermentation would make it negligible. Good to know.

You can also promote zinc retention in the mash tun. I'd have to scan Kunze for the relevant pages but it's in there.

Sauergut!

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 27, 2016, 03:33:52 AM
When I lauter into the kettle I raise pH to around 5.5pH,
You can raise pH in the kettle a variety of ways, use whatever is the easiest for you.

For example?

Addition of top up water, or a small amount of baking soda or chalk.
Pickling lime? That would be my choice. Any problems with that?

I wouldn't mess with pickling lime in a pale beer.  You could easily sparge with RO and raise the pH in the kettle if you're so inclined.
Just a little would do it, and Ca and OH will be flavor neutral. Baking soda adds more Na.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 27, 2016, 01:11:02 PM
A boiling  water top of RO in the kettle would be probably your lowest DO, and easiest raise of pH with out any hardness. For my batch size (6.5 gallons) 1 gallon does this wonderfully.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on October 27, 2016, 04:13:52 PM
I'm planning a low oxygen brew for my next batch (hoping to brew it next weekend).

I'm thinking I can follow the paper pretty well with the following exceptions:

- I'm brewing a Belgian ale so the fermentation schedule will be different
- My understanding from reading the GBF is that you want to use less than 100 mg/l of SMB for ales so I was   
  thinking maybe I would start at 50 mg/l
-Given my schedule, it's extremely likely I will miss the window for spunding so I'll have to add some 
 priming solution in the keg

I think I have everything else covered (condition grain, pre-boil strike water,fill mash tun from bottom, minimal stirring/splashing, no sparge, 60 minute boil targeting 10% evaporation, stainless chiller, etc.).

Any comments or suggestions?

Is it recommended to skip the vorlauf when not utilizing a recirculating mash system?

I really don't know what to expect in terms of the efficiency hit.  I'm usually in the low 80's for this beer, but with no sparge, no stirring to break up any dough balls, shorter boil, and conditioned grain (which I think will result in a coarser crush), I designed the recipe to target 70%.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on October 27, 2016, 04:39:22 PM
I really don't know what to expect in terms of the efficiency hit.  I'm usually in the low 80's for this beer, but with no sparge, no stirring to break up any dough balls, shorter boil, and conditioned grain (which I think will result in a coarser crush), I designed the recipe to target 70%.

This is my concern going at this for the first time, too. I crush fine, bag in a cooler, batch sparge and typically get about 85% mash efficiency. First go at it I think I'm going to keep everything the same except preboil, 50 ppm SMB, no sparge (single infusion temp for ale), minimal/no stir. I'm guessing this will put me  at ~70% ME.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 27, 2016, 04:49:34 PM
I really don't know what to expect in terms of the efficiency hit.  I'm usually in the low 80's for this beer, but with no sparge, no stirring to break up any dough balls, shorter boil, and conditioned grain (which I think will result in a coarser crush), I designed the recipe to target 70%.

This is my concern going at this for the first time, too. I crush fine, bag in a cooler, batch sparge and typically get about 85% mash efficiency. First go at it I think I'm going to keep everything the same except preboil, 50 ppm SMB, no sparge (single infusion temp for ale), minimal/no stir. I'm guessing this will put me  at ~70% ME.

Keep in mind that you can get very high efficiency with no sparge. If your crush and pH management are on point and you can limit mash losses (deadspace) there is no reason that with 100% conversion you can be in the mid 80s.

As an example, Bryan bottom fills/drains his kettles so MLT deadspace is little to none. That couple with continuous recirculating translates to high no sparge mash η.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 27, 2016, 04:54:04 PM
Yea, sorry I can't speak to losses of eff%. I am no sparge and am at 100% conversion, 90% mash, and 85% brewhouse.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 27, 2016, 05:11:58 PM
Something as simple as installing a pickup tube and using a bag could serve to limit your deadspace greatly
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on October 27, 2016, 05:38:36 PM
I bet the constant recirculating is pretty helpful.  I'll see where I come out and report back. 

I do have a pump and could set up a recirculating system, but everytime I have seriously considered it, I've decided not to.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 27, 2016, 06:46:17 PM
I bet the constant recirculating is pretty helpful.  I'll see where I come out and report back. 

I do have a pump and could set up a recirculating system, but everytime I have seriously considered it, I've decided not to.

Be sure to reduce your flow rate and return under the liquid line so as to reduce any splashing.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: ajk on October 28, 2016, 02:21:31 AM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 28, 2016, 02:52:39 AM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.

No sparge really requires that your process is on point to get great efficiency.

Your crush has to be right, conversion η high and mash losses low.

Conversion can be aided along with proper pH management and recirculation. Lauter η is helped by lower mash losses. Bottom filling and draining is one way to minimize MLT loss.

There is no reason that most can't get 80-90% mash η under the right circumstances. Plus you don't have to sparge!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 28, 2016, 12:57:04 PM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.

No sparge really requires that your process is on point to get great efficiency.

Your crush has to be right, conversion η high and mash losses low.

Conversion can be aided along with proper pH management and recirculation. Lauter η is helped by lower mash losses. Bottom filling and draining is one way to minimize MLT loss.

There is no reason that most can't get 80-90% mash η under the right circumstances. Plus you don't have to sparge!


When you guys talk about no sparge, are you actually doing it full volume, or a modified no sparge where you mash at a normal ratio and then add the remaining volume after mash and drain (or to the kettle)? I've done the latter, never the former.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 12:58:00 PM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.

No sparge really requires that your process is on point to get great efficiency.

Your crush has to be right, conversion η high and mash losses low.

Conversion can be aided along with proper pH management and recirculation. Lauter η is helped by lower mash losses. Bottom filling and draining is one way to minimize MLT loss.

There is no reason that most can't get 80-90% mash η under the right circumstances. Plus you don't have to sparge!


When you guys talk about no sparge, are you actually doing it full volume, or a modified no sparge where you mash at a normal ratio and then add the remaining volume after mash and drain (or to the kettle)? I've done the latter, never the former.

Full Volume.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 28, 2016, 01:00:07 PM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.

No sparge really requires that your process is on point to get great efficiency.

Your crush has to be right, conversion η high and mash losses low.

Conversion can be aided along with proper pH management and recirculation. Lauter η is helped by lower mash losses. Bottom filling and draining is one way to minimize MLT loss.

There is no reason that most can't get 80-90% mash η under the right circumstances. Plus you don't have to sparge!


When you guys talk about no sparge, are you actually doing it full volume, or a modified no sparge where you mash at a normal ratio and then add the remaining volume after mash and drain (or to the kettle)? I've done the latter, never the former.

Full Volume.

I assumed that, or there would be no advantage in terms of O2 uptake. I was always scared of the high water:grain but I'm gonna give it a shot this weekend.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 28, 2016, 01:11:08 PM
Another one  - I thought I saw a post or linked document here that mentioned kegging with a small amount of SMB. Is that advisable and, if so, what is an effective amount that stays below the taste threshold? I definitely wouldn't want to use much (if any) there. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 01:46:06 PM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.

No sparge really requires that your process is on point to get great efficiency.

Your crush has to be right, conversion η high and mash losses low.

Conversion can be aided along with proper pH management and recirculation. Lauter η is helped by lower mash losses. Bottom filling and draining is one way to minimize MLT loss.

There is no reason that most can't get 80-90% mash η under the right circumstances. Plus you don't have to sparge!


When you guys talk about no sparge, are you actually doing it full volume, or a modified no sparge where you mash at a normal ratio and then add the remaining volume after mash and drain (or to the kettle)? I've done the latter, never the former.

Full Volume.

I assumed that, or there would be no advantage in terms of O2 uptake. I was always scared of the high water:grain but I'm gonna give it a shot this weekend.

Try to keep it under 3qts/lb.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 28, 2016, 01:48:28 PM
Try to keep it under 3qts/lb.


Cool, thanks.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 01:49:06 PM
Another one  - I thought I saw a post or linked document here that mentioned kegging with a small amount of SMB. Is that advisable and, if so, what is an effective amount that stays below the taste threshold? I definitely wouldn't want to use much (if any) there. Thanks in advance.

Yea full disclosure, this always gives me the heebeejeebees. I have done quite a bit of work with trying to find the right methods ingredients and amounts, with not much success. I will always try and steer one towards spunding, as not only does it carbonate with beautiful pure co2, you are capturing natural antioxidants(sulfur).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 28, 2016, 01:57:03 PM
Another one  - I thought I saw a post or linked document here that mentioned kegging with a small amount of SMB. Is that advisable and, if so, what is an effective amount that stays below the taste threshold? I definitely wouldn't want to use much (if any) there. Thanks in advance.

Yea full disclosure, this always gives me the heebeejeebees. I have done quite a bit of work with trying to find the right methods ingredients and amounts, with not much success. I will always try and steer one towards spunding, as not only does it carbonate with beautiful pure co2, you are capturing natural antioxidants(sulfur).


Concerning for me, too. I don't think I could bring myself to do it, was just curious.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 28, 2016, 02:02:01 PM
I really don't know what to expect in terms of the efficiency hit.  I'm usually in the low 80's for this beer, but with no sparge, no stirring to break up any dough balls, shorter boil, and conditioned grain (which I think will result in a coarser crush), I designed the recipe to target 70%.

This is my concern going at this for the first time, too. I crush fine, bag in a cooler, batch sparge and typically get about 85% mash efficiency. First go at it I think I'm going to keep everything the same except preboil, 50 ppm SMB, no sparge (single infusion temp for ale), minimal/no stir. I'm guessing this will put me  at ~70% ME.

Same concerns here, but I will say as Monk alluded mashing at a pH of 5.2 does kick things up a notch IME so we might be surprised.  Let us not forget some think a thinner mash improves efficiency as well.  I hit 80% with single batch sparge so 70% seems reasonable.  I mean no disrespect to Kai or Schwartz but the batch sparge analysis has no mention of pH...  An acidified sparge makes a huge impact on efficiency. 

I am also a bit freaked of SMB at kegging.  I think ALOT of these things will eventually shake out by trial and error as we're on the fringe.  Fairly certain I going with a SMB/AA blend at kegging.   
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on October 28, 2016, 03:02:00 PM
Another one  - I thought I saw a post or linked document here that mentioned kegging with a small amount of SMB. Is that advisable and, if so, what is an effective amount that stays below the taste threshold? I definitely wouldn't want to use much (if any) there. Thanks in advance.

Yea full disclosure, this always gives me the heebeejeebees. I have done quite a bit of work with trying to find the right methods ingredients and amounts, with not much success. I will always try and steer one towards spunding, as not only does it carbonate with beautiful pure co2, you are capturing natural antioxidants(sulfur).

Derek, you brew lots of Belgian style beers.  Have you tried spunding with them?

I've found that I prefer the results of an open fermentation, and part of that could be the removal of volatile compounds.  Seems like less of that would happen if you spund, but that's only speculation.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 28, 2016, 04:23:21 PM
I replied with a detailed post and it didn't go through! I'll rework it again. Long story short is that Bryan is the man for kegging. I am a bottler.

I have not done a Belgian. We do have some thoughts on bottling though. Post to follow.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 04:42:39 PM
I have a current batch, that is chilling in the serving kegerator, that was fermented to final gravity, let sit for 1 addtional week, then kegged and priming sugar added. It is fully carbed now 2 weeks later! I will post some tasting notes on it maybe this weekend.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebriscoe on October 28, 2016, 05:51:57 PM
I have a current batch, that is chilling in the serving kegerator, that was fermented to final gravity, let sit for 1 addtional week, then kegged and priming sugar added. It is fully carbed now 2 weeks later! I will post some tasting notes on it maybe this weekend.
I have been doing this with some of my low o2 ales. What I find is the low o2 character makes it through ok and would probably hold out for the majority of the time it takes a normal person to finish a keg. The spunded kegs do seem to out last the primed kegs.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 07:54:11 PM
I have a current batch, that is chilling in the serving kegerator, that was fermented to final gravity, let sit for 1 addtional week, then kegged and priming sugar added. It is fully carbed now 2 weeks later! I will post some tasting notes on it maybe this weekend.
I have been doing this with some of my low o2 ales. What I find is the low o2 character makes it through ok and would probably hold out for the majority of the time it takes a normal person to finish a keg. The spunded kegs do seem to out last the primed kegs.

I agree, and I think this is because you have active yeast on the transfer, and are capturing some of that sulfur for the antioxidant.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 28, 2016, 11:33:26 PM
A few posts back someone asked about vorlaufing if full recirculation is not possible. How does this affect the low DO process and what is the best way to tackle this if need be?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 11:41:02 PM
A few posts back someone asked about vorlaufing if full recirculation is not possible. How does this affect the low DO process and what is the best way to tackle this if need be?
It's certainly an interesting dilemma. On one hand you have a potential for oxidation and on the other hand you have cloudy lipidy wort. Both have many draw backs. I would voulauf and be gentle with the re-introduction of the wort.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 28, 2016, 11:43:28 PM
A few posts back someone asked about vorlaufing if full recirculation is not possible. How does this affect the low DO process and what is the best way to tackle this if need be?
It's certainly an interesting dilemma. On one hand you have a potential for oxidation and on the other hand you have cloudy lipidy wort. Both have many draw backs. I would voulauf and be gentle with the re-introduction of the wort.


That's the lesser of two evils to me in my setup.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 30, 2016, 12:02:41 PM
A few posts back someone asked about vorlaufing if full recirculation is not possible. How does this affect the low DO process and what is the best way to tackle this if need be?
It's certainly an interesting dilemma. On one hand you have a potential for oxidation and on the other hand you have cloudy lipidy wort. Both have many draw backs. I would voulauf and be gentle with the re-introduction of the wort.


That's the lesser of two evils to me in my setup.

For sure, I am just trying to figure out how I can adapt my system to try this out for myself. Trying to think about where the major pitfalls might be and how to work around those.

I typically don't need much vorlaufing for a crystal clear wort, and I can easily add that wort back to the mash without splashing (or very minimal anyway).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebrews on October 30, 2016, 04:25:58 PM
I was just thinking about the vorlauf problem yesterday when I was driving home.  Generally, I run out the wort into a pitcher and then pour it back into the top of the mash.  No matter how gently this is done, it does a lot of surface exchange of the wort with the air.  I usually circulate 1.5 gallons or so of the 4 gallons of liquid in the single infusion strike water.  If I'm no-sparging, then I will recirculate like that and then pump all the remaining hot water in top of the grain bed.  Again, lots of surface exchange of the liquid.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 30, 2016, 06:31:13 PM
I was just thinking about the vorlauf problem yesterday when I was driving home.  Generally, I run out the wort into a pitcher and then pour it back into the top of the mash.  No matter how gently this is done, it does a lot of surface exchange of the wort with the air.  I usually circulate 1.5 gallons or so of the 4 gallons of liquid in the single infusion strike water.  If I'm no-sparging, then I will recirculate like that and then pump all the remaining hot water in top of the grain bed.  Again, lots of surface exchange of the liquid.

A true no-sparge means no additional water added after mash in. You mash with your full volume.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebrews on October 30, 2016, 07:00:06 PM
Yeah, I know...I'm a rebel like that
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on October 30, 2016, 08:07:49 PM
I was just thinking about the vorlauf problem yesterday when I was driving home.  Generally, I run out the wort into a pitcher and then pour it back into the top of the mash.  No matter how gently this is done, it does a lot of surface exchange of the wort with the air.  I usually circulate 1.5 gallons or so of the 4 gallons of liquid in the single infusion strike water.  If I'm no-sparging, then I will recirculate like that and then pump all the remaining hot water in top of the grain bed.  Again, lots of surface exchange of the liquid.

A true no-sparge means no additional water added after mash in. You mash with your full volume.

Yes, but one might still have to carefully vorlauf which could lead to oxygen introduction. Just trying to figure out the best way to pull that off with my system.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 31, 2016, 11:33:43 AM
I was just thinking about the vorlauf problem yesterday when I was driving home.  Generally, I run out the wort into a pitcher and then pour it back into the top of the mash.  No matter how gently this is done, it does a lot of surface exchange of the wort with the air.  I usually circulate 1.5 gallons or so of the 4 gallons of liquid in the single infusion strike water.  If I'm no-sparging, then I will recirculate like that and then pump all the remaining hot water in top of the grain bed.  Again, lots of surface exchange of the liquid.

A true no-sparge means no additional water added after mash in. You mash with your full volume.

Yes, but one might still have to carefully vorlauf which could lead to oxygen introduction. Just trying to figure out the best way to pull that off with my system.

You could approximate the vorlauf by running a pump for a minute or so at the end of the mash and return the liquid to the top of the mash under a cap, keeping the returned wort under the liquid line.

Obviously this is where direct firing and constant recirculation come in handy. Yet doing what is described above definitely doesn't preclude getting clear wort and does not introduce oxygen to the mash.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on October 31, 2016, 01:25:55 PM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.

No sparge really requires that your process is on point to get great efficiency.

Your crush has to be right, conversion η high and mash losses low.

Conversion can be aided along with proper pH management and recirculation. Lauter η is helped by lower mash losses. Bottom filling and draining is one way to minimize MLT loss.

There is no reason that most can't get 80-90% mash η under the right circumstances. Plus you don't have to sparge!


When you guys talk about no sparge, are you actually doing it full volume, or a modified no sparge where you mash at a normal ratio and then add the remaining volume after mash and drain (or to the kettle)? I've done the latter, never the former.

Full Volume.

I assumed that, or there would be no advantage in terms of O2 uptake. I was always scared of the high water:grain but I'm gonna give it a shot this weekend.

Try to keep it under 3qts/lb.
Let's expand on this. Why keep it under 3qt/lb?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on October 31, 2016, 02:42:29 PM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.

No sparge really requires that your process is on point to get great efficiency.

Your crush has to be right, conversion η high and mash losses low.

Conversion can be aided along with proper pH management and recirculation. Lauter η is helped by lower mash losses. Bottom filling and draining is one way to minimize MLT loss.

There is no reason that most can't get 80-90% mash η under the right circumstances. Plus you don't have to sparge!


When you guys talk about no sparge, are you actually doing it full volume, or a modified no sparge where you mash at a normal ratio and then add the remaining volume after mash and drain (or to the kettle)? I've done the latter, never the former.

Full Volume.

I assumed that, or there would be no advantage in terms of O2 uptake. I was always scared of the high water:grain but I'm gonna give it a shot this weekend.

Try to keep it under 3qts/lb.
Let's expand on this. Why keep it under 3qt/lb?

For sure, So once you start getting above that 3 mark, you will have a hard time getting enough gravity points to make preboil.
(http://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/3/3c/First_wort_gravity.gif)

Now Kai is assuming 100% efficiency, so you can see the issues if you don't hit that.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on October 31, 2016, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: The Beerery link=topic=27965.msg365401#msg365401 date=1477662366

Try to keep it under 3qts/lb.
[/quote
Let's expand on this. Why keep it under 3qt/lb?

For sure, So once you start getting above that 3 mark, you will have a hard time getting enough gravity points to make preboil.
(http://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/3/3c/First_wort_gravity.gif)

Now Kai is assuming 100% efficiency, so you can see the issues if you don't hit that.

Just to piggy-back on this, Bryan and I came up with a scheme in the spreadsheet by which we replicate Kai's numbers using actual inputted values in the software. We use an input cell called "Laboratory Extract %" and a table of various extract %s vs. WTG ratios to give accurate no-sparge pre-boil volumes (first wort gravities).

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on October 31, 2016, 03:01:45 PM
Remember that if you are dialing back the boil time or intensity you should should be way under 3qts/lb... 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on October 31, 2016, 03:27:40 PM
Sulfite test strips...how many should I need, what kind and where do I get them?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on October 31, 2016, 03:44:26 PM
Remember that if you are dialing back the boil time or intensity you should should be way under 3qts/lb...
Not necessarily if you are brewing a very low gravity beer.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on October 31, 2016, 04:24:50 PM
Remember that if you are dialing back the boil time or intensity you should should be way under 3qts/lb...
Not necessarily if you are brewing a very low gravity beer.
True this. Most of my beer are around 1.050 and 75% brewhouse efficiency (70% if doing full volume mash, closer to 80% if doing step infusion). So I am, at times, hard pressed to use less than 3qt/lb, which is making me rethink doing full volume mashes.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on November 02, 2016, 05:46:33 PM
This (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis) might help with your efficiency adjustment, in case you haven't seen it.

No sparge really requires that your process is on point to get great efficiency.

Your crush has to be right, conversion η high and mash losses low.

Conversion can be aided along with proper pH management and recirculation. Lauter η is helped by lower mash losses. Bottom filling and draining is one way to minimize MLT loss.

There is no reason that most can't get 80-90% mash η under the right circumstances. Plus you don't have to sparge!


When you guys talk about no sparge, are you actually doing it full volume, or a modified no sparge where you mash at a normal ratio and then add the remaining volume after mash and drain (or to the kettle)? I've done the latter, never the former.

Full Volume.

I assumed that, or there would be no advantage in terms of O2 uptake. I was always scared of the high water:grain but I'm gonna give it a shot this weekend.

Try to keep it under 3qts/lb.
So, not exactly "full volume"? 
For 6 gal. in fermenter:
- mash under 3 qts./lb.
- after mash top up with about 1 gal. RO water to raise Ph in boil.

I don't have sauergut.  Should I add lactic at end of boil or don't bother and let the yeast do the job in the fermenter?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 02, 2016, 11:52:29 PM
That sounds solid. I would add the Latic with 10 minutes left, target around 5.1 or a little lower.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on November 03, 2016, 04:04:05 AM
That sounds solid. I would add the Latic with 10 minutes left, target around 5.1 or a little lower.
Thanks.  Will try.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: wobdee on November 03, 2016, 06:21:18 PM
I've read that LOX enzyme is deactivated at 65°c and malt gelatinazion is complete at this temp as well. Would it be better to use this temp at dough in and first Hochkurz rest instead of a lower 62°c?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 03, 2016, 06:37:46 PM
I've read that LOX enzyme is deactivated at 65°c and malt gelatinazion is complete at this temp as well. Would it be better to use this temp at dough in and first Hochkurz rest instead of a lower 62°c?

I think Kunze says 80 °C. Thats the temperature the big boys steep condition at.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 03, 2016, 06:43:06 PM
I've read that LOX enzyme is deactivated at 65°c and malt gelatinazion is complete at this temp as well. Would it be better to use this temp at dough in and first Hochkurz rest instead of a lower 62°c?

I think Kunze says 80 °C. Thats the temperature the big boys steep condition at.

Yup.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on November 03, 2016, 08:23:13 PM
I've read that LOX enzyme is deactivated at 65°c and malt gelatinazion is complete at this temp as well. Would it be better to use this temp at dough in and first Hochkurz rest instead of a lower 62°c?

I think Kunze says 80 °C. Thats the temperature the big boys steep condition at.
Can we not call them "big boys"? They're likely the same size as we are.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 04, 2016, 12:55:13 PM
Maybe the question has been asked and answered. How important is it to get the clearest possible wort into the fermentor?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 04, 2016, 01:13:12 PM
Maybe the question has been asked and answered. How important is it to get the clearest possible wort into the fermentor?

Varying degrees of trub separation: removing hot trub, removing cold trub or a combination of the 2 has a number of effects, most notably faster lagering times and improvement in repitch quality of slurry.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on November 04, 2016, 01:14:20 PM
Maybe the question has been asked and answered. How important is it to get the clearest possible wort into the fermentor?

Varying degrees of trub separation: removing hot trub, removing cold trub or a combination of the 2 has a number of effects, most notably faster lagering times.

There are also numerous things that contribute to clear wort.  We've been focusing on polyphenols here, but it's hard to say that clarity itself is what makes a difference.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 04, 2016, 01:48:14 PM
Nothing specific in the trub that would have an effect on flavor?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 04, 2016, 01:53:34 PM
Nothing specific in the trub that would have an effect on flavor?

Yea fats and lipids(the main aging carboyls), lipids are more prevalent in cloudy wort and trub.

(http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/corsebreak.jpg)

(http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/coldbreak.jpg)

(http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/aging1.jpg)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 04, 2016, 01:56:03 PM
Nothing specific in the trub that would have an effect on flavor?

Well, yes. Kunze, Narziß and many other sources in the German brewing industry (Professional and Academic) advocate trub removal for many reasons including flavor improvements.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 04, 2016, 02:23:22 PM
I read "nowadays the cold break is not usually removed." But hot break needs to be removed. Which is kind of difficult in a Brewmeister/BIAB configuration :)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on November 04, 2016, 02:28:05 PM
I read "nowadays the cold break is not usually removed." But hot break needs to be removed. Which is kind of difficult in a Brewmeister/BIAB configuration :)
Yes, wish the braumeister would have flow in the opposite direction, like the Grainfather.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 04, 2016, 02:46:33 PM
I read "nowadays the cold break is not usually removed." But hot break needs to be removed. Which is kind of difficult in a Brewmeister/BIAB configuration :)

IF you meet the points listed below it. Don't be so quick to come to a conclusion before you continue reading everything ;)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on November 04, 2016, 04:43:59 PM
I'm brewing my first low oxygen batch tonight, wish me luck.

Bryan, what type of fitting are you using to go through the wall of your kettle mashtun?  Is it just a threaded nipple with type A camlocks on either end?  I'm interested in using a similar setup for my cooler tun.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narvin on November 04, 2016, 06:00:30 PM
Nothing specific in the trub that would have an effect on flavor?

I absolutely advocate removing hop sludge and hot break.  But these aren't in suspension after a few minutes and don't contribute to what I'd consider "cloudy" wort.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on November 04, 2016, 06:27:37 PM
My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn't really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add'l O2 pickup.  Wouldn't this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I'd hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 04, 2016, 08:36:12 PM
My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn't really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add'l O2 pickup.  Wouldn't this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I'd hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I'll let Bryan talk about his break removal technique
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 04, 2016, 09:18:29 PM
My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn't really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add'l O2 pickup.  Wouldn't this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I'd hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will.. But don't take this the wrong way..

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like.. stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it... Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn't be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn't call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds.. Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 04, 2016, 11:26:38 PM
I'm brewing my first low oxygen batch tonight, wish me luck.

Bryan, what type of fitting are you using to go through the wall of your kettle mashtun?  Is it just a threaded nipple with type A camlocks on either end?  I'm interested in using a similar setup for my cooler tun.

Basically... yea.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: majorvices on November 05, 2016, 03:43:50 PM
Jeff- Full disclosure I only like the German "macro"brew lagers. Ayinger, W, Bitburger and the like. All of the beers turned out by these breweries exhibit low oxygen brewing methods in spades. One of my fellow colleagues(Tech) was recently in country and said many of the beers from the smaller places were very American like in flavors( I don't want to speak for him or put words in his mouth). I hope he jumps in and comments.

I was inspired by your post to go back out and try Bittburger again after years of not trying it. Because I was trying to understand if I missed something. Not a very tasty beer, I poured most of it out and have 5 more that I'll leave down at the brewery. If they are using Low Oxygen Brewing techniques I have to wonder why they are doing a simple forced diacetyl test. Perhaps you are speaking of drinking these beers in Germany?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 06, 2016, 12:39:44 PM
Jeff- Full disclosure I only like the German "macro"brew lagers. Ayinger, W, Bitburger and the like. All of the beers turned out by these breweries exhibit low oxygen brewing methods in spades. One of my fellow colleagues(Tech) was recently in country and said many of the beers from the smaller places were very American like in flavors( I don't want to speak for him or put words in his mouth). I hope he jumps in and comments.

I was inspired by your post to go back out and try Bittburger again after years of not trying it. Because I was trying to understand if I missed something. Not a very tasty beer, I poured most of it out and have 5 more that I'll leave down at the brewery. If they are using Low Oxygen Brewing techniques I have to wonder why they are doing a simple forced diacetyl test. Perhaps you are speaking of drinking these beers in Germany?

How old? Bottles or cans? Bit in cans is phenomenal.   
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 06, 2016, 01:19:22 PM
I also had bitte ein bit a couple of months ago in northern Italy. It was a terrible sulphur bomb.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: majorvices on November 06, 2016, 01:26:42 PM
Jeff- Full disclosure I only like the German "macro"brew lagers. Ayinger, W, Bitburger and the like. All of the beers turned out by these breweries exhibit low oxygen brewing methods in spades. One of my fellow colleagues(Tech) was recently in country and said many of the beers from the smaller places were very American like in flavors( I don't want to speak for him or put words in his mouth). I hope he jumps in and comments.

I was inspired by your post to go back out and try Bittburger again after years of not trying it. Because I was trying to understand if I missed something. Not a very tasty beer, I poured most of it out and have 5 more that I'll leave down at the brewery. If they are using Low Oxygen Brewing techniques I have to wonder why they are doing a simple forced diacetyl test. Perhaps you are speaking of drinking these beers in Germany?

How old? Bottles or cans? Bit in cans is phenomenal.

Bottles. Very fresh. Not good at all. best by date is 06/15/17 (which is ridiculous, that means the beer has a year shelf life? So I am making an assumption it is fresh? Perhaps they have a 2 year shelf life ;) ). I have no idea on their packaging lines but you'd think a beer this fresh would not show signs of diacetyl especially in bottles from a brewery this big. Surely they have VDK detection lab. I mean, we do at Yellowhammer. It is a super easy test.

Seriously, I have had Bittburger many, many times before and I am a huge fan of German style beers. I have to admit that this is the first time I have had it in several years, but back in the day it was my "stop for a six pack go-to". When it isn't showcasing diacetyl it is not a terrible German style pils (or maybe I wasn't trained to taste diacetyl properly 10+ years ago) but, just syin' .... I just can't claim it is "phenomenal" with a straight face. Seriously??
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 06, 2016, 01:36:11 PM
Jeff- Full disclosure I only like the German "macro"brew lagers. Ayinger, W, Bitburger and the like. All of the beers turned out by these breweries exhibit low oxygen brewing methods in spades. One of my fellow colleagues(Tech) was recently in country and said many of the beers from the smaller places were very American like in flavors( I don't want to speak for him or put words in his mouth). I hope he jumps in and comments.

I was inspired by your post to go back out and try Bittburger again after years of not trying it. Because I was trying to understand if I missed something. Not a very tasty beer, I poured most of it out and have 5 more that I'll leave down at the brewery. If they are using Low Oxygen Brewing techniques I have to wonder why they are doing a simple forced diacetyl test. Perhaps you are speaking of drinking these beers in Germany?

How old? Bottles or cans? Bit in cans is phenomenal.

Bottles. Very fresh. Not good at all. best by date is 06/15/17 (which is ridiculous, that means the beer has a year shelf life? So I am making an assumption it is fresh? Perhaps they have a 2 year shelf life ;) ). I have no idea on their packaging lines but you'd think a beer this fresh would not show signs of diacetyl especially in bottles from a brewery this big. Surely they have VDK detection lab. I mean, we do at Yellowhammer. It is a super easy test.

Seriously, I have had Bittburger many, many times before and I am a huge fan of German style beers. I have to admit that this is the first time I have had it in several years, but back in the day it was my "stop for a six pack go-to". When it isn't showcasing diacetyl it is not a terrible German style pils (or maybe I wasn't trained to taste diacetyl properly 10+ years ago) but, just syin' .... I just can't claim it is "phenomenal" with a straight face. Seriously??

Hey man. To each their own. I get super fresh 16 oz. 4 packs and they are dynamite. I always recommend the cans.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: majorvices on November 06, 2016, 01:52:44 PM
I personally wouldn't call a flawed beer exhibiting sure signs of diacetyl as a "to each their own" scenario .... but then again I am extremely sensitive to it. I will check on the cans sometime. VDK is the precursor to diacetyl and it is usually caused by oxydation post packaging so I find it ironic that a brewery like Bittburger would spend millions of dollars on LoDo brewing techniques but then have problems on the packaging side.

I'm not trying to derail your thread, I do appreciate you guys sharing all this information and I am finding it fascinating so please don't take what I am saying the wrong way.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on November 06, 2016, 02:45:34 PM
I like Bitburger; it will forever remind me of drinking beer out of clear plastic cups in the basement of the Middle East in Cambridge. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Phil_M on November 07, 2016, 12:52:50 AM
Best way to drink Bitburger I've found is from a fresh one of those 5-liter party kegs.

Cans are next best, but haven't seen them around here in years. For some reason it always seems to suck in bottles.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 07, 2016, 02:21:39 PM
I try and avoid European bottles like the plague.

Very familiar with VDK/Dia, we have a few documents on it in our library, along with the brewing texts.

Oxygen ingress though the beer caps/seal is quite large. Couple that with a container being shipped across the ocean at who knows what temps, stored at a distributor at who knows what temps or for how long, and then making its way to you local liquor store to sit at who knows what temps and for how long.. You have beer with off flavors.

Fresh in cans or mini-keg its sublime.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on November 07, 2016, 02:46:48 PM
One local brewer who recently installed a canning line told me the normal oxygen ingress in bottles is 2ppb per day.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on November 07, 2016, 06:01:55 PM
One local brewer who recently installed a canning line told me the normal oxygen ingress in bottles is 2ppb per day.


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Interesting. That's why I switched to kegging years ago.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 07, 2016, 06:54:27 PM
One local brewer who recently installed a canning line told me the normal oxygen ingress in bottles is 2ppb per day.


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I have read that better cap materials are at 1ppb/day. That will not last forever.

Cans have more packaged O2, but very very little ingress.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on November 07, 2016, 08:56:41 PM
My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn't really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add'l O2 pickup.  Wouldn't this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I'd hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will.. But don't take this the wrong way..

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like.. stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it... Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn't be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn't call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds.. Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.

Thanks for that.  No offense at all (never took any of your comments that way BTW).  You got me beat by 500 by estimate.  Have any kids?  ;D  This all makes sense as I am at this plateau now where pretty much nothing results in much change.  Looking forward to changing that!  Care to to offer % as to copper chiller?  Right now, I am tending to shy away from trying LO at all due to copper.  I'd like to believe doing the basics should at least get me some results. 

I too prefer the party keg Bitt.  Wow, it has been awhile tho.  Anxious to try Becks too now that is being made here.  Gotta be pretty fresh...  You guys that have made it to the Motherland.  I thought Bitt/Becks was considered poor quality/americanized stuff.  Even saw comments that Germans say only bums drink it?  What's the deal?  Curious...
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 07, 2016, 09:04:02 PM
My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn't really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add'l O2 pickup.  Wouldn't this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I'd hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will.. But don't take this the wrong way..

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like.. stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it... Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn't be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn't call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds.. Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.

Thanks for that.  No offense at all (never took any of your comments that way BTW).  You got me beat by 500 by estimate.  Have any kids?  ;D  This all makes sense as I am at this plateau now where pretty much nothing results in much change.  Looking forward to changing that!  Care to to offer % as to copper chiller?  Right now, I am tending to shy away from trying LO at all due to copper.  I'd like to believe doing the basics should at least get me some results. 

I too prefer the party keg Bitt.  Wow, it has been awhile tho.  Anxious to try Becks too now that is being made here.  Gotta be pretty fresh...  You guys that have made it to the Motherland.  I thought Bitt/Becks was considered poor quality/americanized stuff.  Even saw comments that Germans say only bums drink it?  What's the deal?  Curious...

Yea, 3 kids under 8(all 3 in sports of some kind), full time job and a full time life!

I don't know how much copper you have, most people its just a chiller. The SMB dosage covers those so while its not perfect, I would certainly not shy away if its just that.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 07, 2016, 11:52:31 PM
Also, zwiller - based on the batches I did with Brewtan I feel like the claims about it preventing copper related oxidation have merit, and I use a copper IC. Changing no other variables except for adding the Brewtan made noticeable improvement in my beers. My plan is currently to use the yeast scavenging method on water (wasn't a huge fan of preboiling), use SMB and Brewtan in strike and go with it. Probably eventually spund. Can't wait to tap my first batch using this method.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on November 08, 2016, 02:03:42 PM
My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn't really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add'l O2 pickup.  Wouldn't this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I'd hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will.. But don't take this the wrong way..

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like.. stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it... Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn't be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn't call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds.. Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.

Thanks for that.  No offense at all (never took any of your comments that way BTW).  You got me beat by 500 by estimate.  Have any kids?  ;D  This all makes sense as I am at this plateau now where pretty much nothing results in much change.  Looking forward to changing that!  Care to to offer % as to copper chiller?  Right now, I am tending to shy away from trying LO at all due to copper.  I'd like to believe doing the basics should at least get me some results. 

I too prefer the party keg Bitt.  Wow, it has been awhile tho.  Anxious to try Becks too now that is being made here.  Gotta be pretty fresh...  You guys that have made it to the Motherland.  I thought Bitt/Becks was considered poor quality/americanized stuff.  Even saw comments that Germans say only bums drink it?  What's the deal?  Curious...
Oh yeah! I've been drinking Becks lately, it's about the freshest beer, German-style, we can get here and made here. I decided to give it a try one day when I saw a local bar had it in cans for cheap. First sip was like, hey, that's surprisingly good. I can get it in 4 packs of pint cans for 5 bucks!
I gotta get me one of those Bittburger mini kegs.

Yeah, I'd think that, even with copper in your system, you can brew low O2 and make improvements. I noticed improvements for sure. I have both a stainless and copper chiller now and have been using both. The stainless chiller is only 3/8" tubing whereas the copper is 1/2" tubing. Chilling times are a bit different between the two...
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 08, 2016, 02:28:18 PM
My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn't really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add'l O2 pickup.  Wouldn't this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I'd hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will.. But don't take this the wrong way..

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like.. stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it... Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn't be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn't call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds.. Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.

Thanks for that.  No offense at all (never took any of your comments that way BTW).  You got me beat by 500 by estimate.  Have any kids?  ;D  This all makes sense as I am at this plateau now where pretty much nothing results in much change.  Looking forward to changing that!  Care to to offer % as to copper chiller?  Right now, I am tending to shy away from trying LO at all due to copper.  I'd like to believe doing the basics should at least get me some results. 

I too prefer the party keg Bitt.  Wow, it has been awhile tho.  Anxious to try Becks too now that is being made here.  Gotta be pretty fresh...  You guys that have made it to the Motherland.  I thought Bitt/Becks was considered poor quality/americanized stuff.  Even saw comments that Germans say only bums drink it?  What's the deal?  Curious...
Oh yeah! I've been drinking Becks lately, it's about the freshest beer, German-style, we can get here and made here. I decided to give it a try one day when I saw a local bar had it in cans for cheap. First sip was like, hey, that's surprisingly good. I can get it in 4 packs of pint cans for 5 bucks!
I gotta get me one of those Bittburger mini kegs.

Yeah, I'd think that, even with copper in your system, you can brew low O2 and make improvements. I noticed improvements for sure. I have both a stainless and copper chiller now and have been using both. The stainless chiller is only 3/8" tubing whereas the copper is 1/2" tubing. Chilling times are a bit different between the two...
How much? Now I have a 3/8" SS and 1/2" copper, both 50 ft. I have not used the SS yet. The copper may be used as a prechiller.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: wobdee on November 08, 2016, 02:53:17 PM
What temp are you lagering/spunding at?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 08, 2016, 02:59:55 PM
What temp are you lagering/spunding at?
45-48F fermentation to spund, spund to final gravity

30 lagering
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: wobdee on November 08, 2016, 04:02:05 PM
What temp are you lagering/spunding at?
45-48F fermentation to spund, spund to final gravity

30 lagering
OK, I was confused with this after reading your blog. I thought maybe you were combining the spunding/lagering at 32-34. So spunding another week or so at 45-48 to final gravity then remove spund valve and drop to lagering temps?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: scrap iron on November 08, 2016, 04:35:21 PM
 

I don't know how much copper you have, most people its just a chiller. The SMB dosage covers those so while its not perfect, I would certainly not shy away if its just that.
[/quote]    Am I to understand that the SMB dose helps to cover the copper chiller affects. I have changed my MT manifold from copper to a simple SS 90* elbow for return under mash surface. I have reduced the copper chiller time to 10 mins before end of boil. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 08, 2016, 05:26:31 PM
What temp are you lagering/spunding at?
45-48F fermentation to spund, spund to final gravity

30 lagering
OK, I was confused with this after reading your blog. I thought maybe you were combining the spunding/lagering at 32-34. So spunding another week or so at 45-48 to final gravity then remove spund valve and drop to lagering temps?

No the spund has to be done at fermentation temps.  Yup remove and lager.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 08, 2016, 05:27:51 PM


I don't know how much copper you have, most people its just a chiller. The SMB dosage covers those so while its not perfect, I would certainly not shy away if its just that.
    Am I to understand that the SMB dose helps to cover the copper chiller affects. I have changed my MT manifold from copper to a simple SS 90* elbow for return under mash surface. I have reduced the copper chiller time to 10 mins before end of boil. Thoughts?
[/quote]

Yup, I would use the standard dose rates appropriate to your system.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on November 08, 2016, 06:49:36 PM
How much? Now I have a 3/8" SS and 1/2" copper, both 50 ft. I have not used the SS yet. The copper may be used as a prechiller.
It might add 10-15 minutes. Long enough for you to notice, I'd say. Whether it's a big deal or not...probably not. I thought about doing a prechiller too, that might help cool faster. Stick the prechiller in ice water, then use that ice water to recirculate once you're down far enough to switch to the pump. I'd need to get another hose, which isn't a big deal.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on November 11, 2016, 11:08:58 PM
Regarding SMB, does the amount of additional residual sulfur compounds in the finished beer depend on how much of the SMB is oxidized during hot or cold side processes?

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on November 11, 2016, 11:12:24 PM
Btw, here is a great interview with Bryan about this, starts at the 32nd minute: https://itunes.apple.com/no/podcast/fermentation-nation/id887065446?mt=2&i=377688846


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 11, 2016, 11:17:25 PM
Need to buy the sulfite test strips. Having recently brewed an ale at a reasonable attempt at lodo brewing, I went with 50ppm meta as not to cause any yeast issues, but my curiosity has me wanting to know about residual sulfur. I obviously want to tighten up my system within reason, but I want to add as little of anything as possible to get the good result. Can't wait to brew a lager soon.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 11, 2016, 11:34:50 PM
You are consuming all SMB you use one way or another. If it's not in process, it will be when you oxygenate for the yeast.
The Lower the dosage the better! 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on November 13, 2016, 04:13:47 PM
What is the reason for the change in recommended mashing schedules between version 1 and version 2 of the low O2 paper?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 14, 2016, 12:51:57 AM
Been meaning to ask - after reading the references here to mashing @ 5.2pH, raising to 5.5 in boil, and lowering to 5.1 near the end of boil, I can't help but remember Kai's advice in the Edelhell recipe to do something pretty opposite. IIRC he said to mash @ 5.45-5.5pH and drop pH to 5.3-ish in boil. Do I assume that simple experimentation has resulted in superior beers? I ask because Kai's info helped me improve my lagers quite a bit. Just curious.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 14, 2016, 02:57:46 PM
What is the reason for the change in recommended mashing schedules between version 1 and version 2 of the low O2 paper?

We saw little to no improvement with the longer mash, and found it to be more beneficial in regards to oxygen exposure to shorten it. Beta actually peaks within 20 minutes of dough in, and it sharply drops off.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 14, 2016, 03:15:11 PM
Been meaning to ask - after reading the references here to mashing @ 5.2pH, raising to 5.5 in boil, and lowering to 5.1 near the end of boil, I can't help but remember Kai's advice in the Edelhell recipe to do something pretty opposite. IIRC he said to mash @ 5.45-5.5pH and drop pH to 5.3-ish in boil. Do I assume that simple experimentation has resulted in superior beers? I ask because Kai's info helped me improve my lagers quite a bit. Just curious.

Kunze will always say 5.2, Narziss will say 5.4-5.5. To really understand I think you have to understand the brewing methods, and the regional stylistic differences.  Narziss is recommending a decoction, and is a Munich brewer born and raised, and very traditional. Munich beers tend to be more malty, variants of the style. Kunze is really a pils brewer, and uses a very modern brewhouse.

These days, I only follow Kunze.

There are many reasons to use 5.2, which I think I have posted excerpts about. You can use and boil at 5.2, but your hop utilization will suffer(no big deal), but you certainly will not be able do any flame out sauergut additions, which is a driving flavor for these beers.

So for me I want to get the oxygen protection from a no sparge, but then emulate a normal sparge that is going to raise the pH(without the oxidation potential). This allows for better hop utilization, AND a flame out sauergut addition.


Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 14, 2016, 03:22:02 PM
Been meaning to ask - after reading the references here to mashing @ 5.2pH, raising to 5.5 in boil, and lowering to 5.1 near the end of boil, I can't help but remember Kai's advice in the Edelhell recipe to do something pretty opposite. IIRC he said to mash @ 5.45-5.5pH and drop pH to 5.3-ish in boil. Do I assume that simple experimentation has resulted in superior beers? I ask because Kai's info helped me improve my lagers quite a bit. Just curious.

Kunze will always say 5.2, Narziss will say 5.4-5.5. To really understand I think you have to understand the brewing methods, and the regional stylistic differences.  Narziss is recommending a decoction, and is a Munich brewer born and raised, and very traditional. Munich beers tend to be more malty, variants of the style. Kunze is really a pils brewer, and uses a very modern brewhouse.

These days, I only follow Kunze.

There are many reasons to use 5.2, which I think I have posted excerpts about. You can use and boil at 5.2, but your hop utilization will suffer(no big deal), but you certainly will not be able do any flame out sauergut additions, which is a driving flavor for these beers.

So for me I want to get the oxygen protection from a no sparge, but then emulate a normal sparge that is going to raise the pH(without the oxidation potential). This allows for better hop utilization, AND a flame out sauergut addition.





Cool, thanks.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 17, 2016, 01:18:44 PM
Here's another question - using the yeast scavenging method for water, is it a bad idea to add the yeast at bedtime to be able to get up and brew right away in the morning? Since I saw no mention on the website I'm assuming that the extra time would allow O2 to ingress back in. Just thinking of a nice potential time savings.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 17, 2016, 01:59:18 PM
Here's another question - using the yeast scavenging method for water, is it a bad idea to add the yeast at bedtime to be able to get up and brew right away in the morning? Since I saw no mention on the website I'm assuming that the extra time would allow O2 to ingress back in. Just thinking of a nice potential time savings.

You can, I think you have about 12-15hrs before DO will creep back up. Keep the pot lidded.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 17, 2016, 02:09:03 PM
Here's another question - using the yeast scavenging method for water, is it a bad idea to add the yeast at bedtime to be able to get up and brew right away in the morning? Since I saw no mention on the website I'm assuming that the extra time would allow O2 to ingress back in. Just thinking of a nice potential time savings.

You can, I think you have about 12-15hrs before DO will creep back up. Keep the pot lidded.



Awesome, I expected to hear that it was a bad idea. Definitely thought in terms of keeping the lid on. I'm there - thanks.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 17, 2016, 02:17:00 PM
Here's another question - using the yeast scavenging method for water, is it a bad idea to add the yeast at bedtime to be able to get up and brew right away in the morning? Since I saw no mention on the website I'm assuming that the extra time would allow O2 to ingress back in. Just thinking of a nice potential time savings.

You can, I think you have about 12-15hrs before DO will creep back up. Keep the pot lidded.



Awesome, I expected to hear that it was a bad idea. Definitely thought in terms of keeping the lid on. I'm there - thanks.

No problem... a little more info
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 17, 2016, 02:27:02 PM
Here's another question - using the yeast scavenging method for water, is it a bad idea to add the yeast at bedtime to be able to get up and brew right away in the morning? Since I saw no mention on the website I'm assuming that the extra time would allow O2 to ingress back in. Just thinking of a nice potential time savings.

You can, I think you have about 12-15hrs before DO will creep back up. Keep the pot lidded.



Awesome, I expected to hear that it was a bad idea. Definitely thought in terms of keeping the lid on. I'm there - thanks.

No problem... a little more info
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/)


Very cool. And double the water volume in g of dextrose and yeast is still the protocol I assume?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 17, 2016, 03:10:04 PM
Here's another question - using the yeast scavenging method for water, is it a bad idea to add the yeast at bedtime to be able to get up and brew right away in the morning? Since I saw no mention on the website I'm assuming that the extra time would allow O2 to ingress back in. Just thinking of a nice potential time savings.



You can, I think you have about 12-15hrs before DO will creep back up. Keep the pot lidded.



Awesome, I expected to hear that it was a bad idea. Definitely thought in terms of keeping the lid on. I'm there - thanks.

No problem... a little more info
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/)


Very cool. And double the water volume in g of dextrose and yeast is still the protocol I assume?
Yup.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 17, 2016, 03:40:47 PM
Yup.


Well, I really appreciate the info. Won't lie - I found preboiling a PITA. But if the results justified it (and definitely appear to), I'd have preboiled away. But this is huge - big time saver.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 17, 2016, 04:52:23 PM
Yup.


Well, I really appreciate the info. Won't lie - I found preboiling a PITA. But if the results justified it (and definitely appear to), I'd have preboiled away. But this is huge - big time saver.

This method certainly works, but for the time savings you will give up some of the benefits. This method I find muddy, and the low oxygen flavor lacks because of it. With that said however it is worlds better than nothing!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 17, 2016, 04:54:23 PM
Yup.


Well, I really appreciate the info. Won't lie - I found preboiling a PITA. But if the results justified it (and definitely appear to), I'd have preboiled away. But this is huge - big time saver.

This method certainly works, but for the time savings you will give up some of the benefits. This method I find muddy, and the low oxygen flavor lacks because of it. With that said however it is worlds better than nothing!


Do you mean preboiling vs yeast or overnight versus the stated yeast method?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 17, 2016, 05:13:47 PM
Yup.


Well, I really appreciate the info. Won't lie - I found preboiling a PITA. But if the results justified it (and definitely appear to), I'd have preboiled away. But this is huge - big time saver.

This method certainly works, but for the time savings you will give up some of the benefits. This method I find muddy, and the low oxygen flavor lacks because of it. With that said however it is worlds better than nothing!


Do you mean preboiling vs yeast or overnight versus the stated yeast method?

Yea, preboiling vs yeast( on a whole).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on November 17, 2016, 07:21:04 PM
I am guessing this has probably been asked as well before, but after doughing in, can one purge headspace in mashtun with CO2 or is it simply better to use a pre-fabbed mashcap?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 17, 2016, 07:25:38 PM
I am guessing this has probably been asked as well before, but after doughing in, can one purge headspace in mashtun with CO2 or is it simply better to use a pre-fabbed mashcap?

Due to the nature of co2 and it being REALLY close to the weight of air, it won't do you much good, the gasses will pretty much just mix. A mash cap is going to be a lot better.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on November 17, 2016, 07:29:25 PM
I assumed there would be some mixing of the gases, just not sure how fast that would occur over a 60 minute mash.

Thanks! 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 17, 2016, 07:29:50 PM
Another -  Of the low O2 brewers with SS chillers, how much is sulfur a problem in your beers? I ask as some copper contact (ie., copper chiller) is known to reduce sulfur levels.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 17, 2016, 07:43:59 PM
Another -  Of the low O2 brewers with SS chillers, how much is sulfur a problem in your beers? I ask as some copper contact (ie., copper chiller) is known to reduce sulfur levels.

0- Sulfur is more yeast and its post hot side driven(fermentation). Some yeast can handle it, some can't. Thats why we speak of dialing in process, and lowering dosage. IF you still need the high dosage it may be wise to start cutting with ascorbic, and meta.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on November 17, 2016, 08:53:55 PM
Oh yeah! I've been drinking Becks lately, it's about the freshest beer, German-style, we can get here and made here. I decided to give it a try one day when I saw a local bar had it in cans for cheap.

Just wanted to post that I picked up a fresh 12 pack of "Made is USA" Becks before the weekend and although it was good, I don't think it really had much "IT".  I was mostly surprised by the lack of light skunking.  I am actually most surprised how similar my NGP is to it.  Especially since my NGP was really a anti-lager of sorts:  Dry yeast/warm ferment/american grain&hops/grain to glass in 14 days...  Honestly was hoping for quite the different experience where it would really fire me up for LO, but not so.  That said, my recollection of Bittburger is that it had IT in spades... 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on November 17, 2016, 08:56:19 PM
That said, my recollection of Bittburger is that it had IT in spades...

Agreed
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on November 17, 2016, 09:27:49 PM
Another -  Of the low O2 brewers with SS chillers, how much is sulfur a problem in your beers? I ask as some copper contact (ie., copper chiller) is known to reduce sulfur levels.

I've brewed four batches with an SS chiller (and no other copper in my system) but no SMB.  Of the three I have tried so far, none have had any sulfur issues.  Yeasts used were 1098 (I think), 3711, and 1388.

I'm planning to keg my first batch tomorrow night that was brewed with both no copper and SMB.  I'll see how the gravity sample tastes.  I used 3787 in that one.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on November 17, 2016, 09:32:22 PM
Oh yeah! I've been drinking Becks lately, it's about the freshest beer, German-style, we can get here and made here. I decided to give it a try one day when I saw a local bar had it in cans for cheap.

Just wanted to post that I picked up a fresh 12 pack of "Made is USA" Becks before the weekend and although it was good, I don't think it really had much "IT".  I was mostly surprised by the lack of light skunking.  I am actually most surprised how similar my NGP is to it.  Especially since my NGP was really a anti-lager of sorts:  Dry yeast/warm ferment/american grain&hops/grain to glass in 14 days...  Honestly was hoping for quite the different experience where it would really fire me up for LO, but not so.  That said, my recollection of Bittburger is that it had IT in spades... 
In cans? It has IT to me, not as much as Bitburger, but definitely has some of IT. And I've only seen it in 4 packs of cans.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 17, 2016, 10:55:37 PM
Another -  Of the low O2 brewers with SS chillers, how much is sulfur a problem in your beers? I ask as some copper contact (ie., copper chiller) is known to reduce sulfur levels.

I've brewed four batches with an SS chiller (and no other copper in my system) but no SMB.  Of the three I have tried so far, none have had any sulfur issues.  Yeasts used were 1098 (I think), 3711, and 1388.

I'm planning to keg my first batch tomorrow night that was brewed with both no copper and SMB.  I'll see how the gravity sample tastes.  I used 3787 in that one.



Thanks for the feedback.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 18, 2016, 12:23:28 AM
In reference to Beck's, I've sample some 12 or so individual bottles of various freshness over the last month. My correspondence with AB yielded the following information:

Freshness dating:

The Beck's  bottling code switched from the "Born On" style date to a Julian date at some point.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161118/03453a26540c886e2ad5a3dab31446f0.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161118/df194b2ee91703289c179a43146d4893.jpg)

16202 = 202nd day of 2016 or July 21, 2016

S = St. Louis, W = Williamsburg

Freshness Guarantee:

AB guarantees 6 months freshness.

Observations:

I've found that after the 3 months out the flavor drops off. The beer gets flatter. This is of course dependent on many things (distribution, handling, etc.) 3 months or less and it had all the markers associated with a good German lager: great noble aroma, great foam, fresh malt flavors, etc.

So "fresh" is a factors of many things. I would argue that if it's older than 3 months you didn't taste it at it's peak.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on November 18, 2016, 12:50:38 AM
You really have to get Beck's in the can. It doesn't seem to be available everywhere unfortunately. I am VERY close to being 100% done with bottles at this point. There are VERY few exceptions, of course.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 18, 2016, 01:10:36 AM
Another -  Of the low O2 brewers with SS chillers, how much is sulfur a problem in your beers? I ask as some copper contact (ie., copper chiller) is known to reduce sulfur levels.

0- Sulfur is more yeast and its post hot side driven(fermentation). Some yeast can handle it, some can't. Thats why we speak of dialing in process, and lowering dosage. IF you still need the high dosage it may be wise to start cutting with ascorbic, and meta.



Makes me confident to buy a SS IC.  Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on November 18, 2016, 03:17:17 PM
Another -  Of the low O2 brewers with SS chillers, how much is sulfur a problem in your beers? I ask as some copper contact (ie., copper chiller) is known to reduce sulfur levels.

0- Sulfur is more yeast and its post hot side driven(fermentation). Some yeast can handle it, some can't. Thats why we speak of dialing in process, and lowering dosage. IF you still need the high dosage it may be wise to start cutting with ascorbic, and meta.



Makes me confident to buy a SS IC.  Thanks for your help.
Maybe look into 1/2" tubing, which is pricier, but the chill times are much longer if you go from 1/2" copper to 3/8" SS.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 18, 2016, 03:19:32 PM
Maybe look into 1/2" tubing, which is pricier, but the chill times are much longer if you go from 1/2" copper to 3/8" SS.



Definitely. When I get one, it'll be 1/2" for sure.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on November 18, 2016, 03:43:46 PM
3/8" is technically more efficient than 1/2". Greater surface area/water to wort contact.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: zwiller on November 18, 2016, 04:02:17 PM
Funny you mention that Monk.  I saw that info before and went looking for date codes etc when I bought the 12 pack but the case was completely sealed up (actually a good thing to me) and no info, so I rolled the dice.  I took a gander last night and I am within 90 days.  16231WC40 to be exact.  I was lead to believe that this was made in Columbus Ohio, but not sure.  I will also say now that you mentioned it, there was no head to this beer AT ALL.  Gone in seconds.  This all might sound like the beer "sucked" but that is far from the truth.  Easily the freshest Beck's I ever had, I'd say. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 18, 2016, 04:27:42 PM
3/8" is technically more efficient than 1/2". Greater surface area/water to wort contact.


Yeah, I've read that. But all I know is the 1/2" copper I have now cools quicker than the old 3/8.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 18, 2016, 08:37:11 PM
@Beerery (Bryan).
Questions about your recirculation process within.
1. Between the hose return from the pump and the loc-line parts, seems you will have quite a bit of air pushing through immediately after you start pumping. Do you just hold it above the mash manually above the mash, start pumping and submerged it as soon as the liquid starts coming or do you have a special trick to automate this and avoid pushing air inside the mash for a few seconds? (or is this negligible?).
Thanks in advance,
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on November 18, 2016, 08:49:05 PM
When naturally carbonating beer in a keg, do you use the same amount of priming sugar you would use if bottling or do you use a bit less?

I've heard both, but tonight is the first time I am trying it for myself.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 18, 2016, 09:02:17 PM
@Beerery (Bryan).
Questions about your recirculation process within.
1. Between the hose return from the pump and the loc-line parts, seems you will have quite a bit of air pushing through immediately after you start pumping. Do you just hold it above the mash manually above the mash, start pumping and submerged it as soon as the liquid starts coming or do you have a special trick to automate this and avoid pushing air inside the mash for a few seconds? (or is this negligible?).
Thanks in advance,

That's exactly correct! 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 18, 2016, 09:03:16 PM
When naturally carbonating beer in a keg, do you use the same amount of priming sugar you would use if bottling or do you use a bit less?

I've heard both, but tonight is the first time I am trying it for myself.

If I recall it was right around 80grams..... I think.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on November 18, 2016, 09:11:36 PM
@Beerery (Bryan).
Questions about your recirculation process within.
1. Between the hose return from the pump and the loc-line parts, seems you will have quite a bit of air pushing through immediately after you start pumping. Do you just hold it above the mash manually above the mash, start pumping and submerged it as soon as the liquid starts coming or do you have a special trick to automate this and avoid pushing air inside the mash for a few seconds? (or is this negligible?).
Thanks in advance,

That's exactly correct!
A bleeder valve at the input would make this process a little less "risky"
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on November 19, 2016, 01:20:33 AM
Got my copy of Kunze today. Reminds me of my
old Morrison and Boyd Organic chemistry text in size and volume.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on November 19, 2016, 01:20:35 AM
Got my copy of Kunze today. Reminds me of my
old Morrison and Boyd Organic chemistry text in size and volume.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on November 19, 2016, 01:21:52 AM
Look forward to reading it.  Doesn't seem too intimidating.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on November 19, 2016, 01:32:00 AM
I'm confused on the water chemistry.  Chemistry is not my strong suit.  :(   I added 50 mg/L of SMB (1.6 gm in 32 L) but my TDS meter jumped by 103 ???
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 19, 2016, 01:44:21 AM
I'm confused on the water chemistry.  Chemistry is not my strong suit.  :(   I added 50 mg/L of SMB (1.6 gm in 32 L) but my TDS meter jumped by 103 ???


Well 50ppm SMB (if my math is correct) would add ~ 38ppm sulfate and ~ 12ppm Na. That would definitely affect TDS.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 19, 2016, 02:08:40 AM
Look forward to reading it.  Doesn't seem too intimidating.


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Awesome. Chapters 3,4,5 is where I would start ;)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 19, 2016, 02:09:17 AM
I'm confused on the water chemistry.  Chemistry is not my strong suit.  :(   I added 50 mg/L of SMB (1.6 gm in 32 L) but my TDS meter jumped by 103 ???


Well 50ppm SMB (if my math is correct) would add ~ 38ppm sulfate and ~ 12ppm Na. That would definitely affect TDS.
Yup and yup!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on November 19, 2016, 04:29:45 AM
I'm confused on the water chemistry.  Chemistry is not my strong suit.  :(   I added 50 mg/L of SMB (1.6 gm in 32 L) but my TDS meter jumped by 103 ???


Well 50ppm SMB (if my math is correct) would add ~ 38ppm sulfate and ~ 12ppm Na. That would definitely affect TDS.
Yup and yup!
But it should have gone up by 50 or so not 103!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 19, 2016, 12:46:31 PM
I'm confused on the water chemistry.  Chemistry is not my strong suit.  :(   I added 50 mg/L of SMB (1.6 gm in 32 L) but my TDS meter jumped by 103 ???


Well 50ppm SMB (if my math is correct) would add ~ 38ppm sulfate and ~ 12ppm Na. That would definitely affect TDS.
Yup and yup!
But it should have gone up by 50 or so not 103!

I think you just found the variance in your meter.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: scrap iron on November 19, 2016, 02:31:14 PM
I recently got some Sulfite test strips thru Amazon. Checked the 2 beers I brewed with LO techniques. These were both Ales, EPA and APA using WY 1272. The EPA was a fly sparge with 100ppm in mash and 25ppm sparge. I checked the ph at 4.4 for both beers. After ph adjustment the EPA read  around 5ppm after 4 weeks conditioning in the bottle. This doesn't seem too high. I bottled this batch with Asorbic Acid so with the small amount of META it should be ok, does this sound right? I might mention the EPA was dryhopped in purged secondary. The APA is being bottled this weekend. This beer was my first no-sparge attempt. The Sufite was 63ppm for this batch.The Sulfite read 10ppm after fermentation was complete. Thinking of skipping  the dryhop on this one. My thinking is most of or half of META will be used up at bottling.  Thought I would report what I've seen with my system. Is my thinking right, should I reduce the META more?   By the way both these smell and taste great,though the APA not as much aroma, really made the hops pop.           
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on November 19, 2016, 04:21:43 PM
I recently got some Sulfite test strips thru Amazon. Checked the 2 beers I brewed with LO techniques. These were both Ales, EPA and APA using WY 1272. The EPA was a fly sparge with 100ppm in mash and 25ppm sparge. I checked the ph at 4.4 for both beers. After ph adjustment the EPA read  around 5ppm after 4 weeks conditioning in the bottle. This doesn't seem too high. I bottled this batch with Asorbic Acid so with the small amount of META it should be ok, does this sound right? I might mention the EPA was dryhopped in purged secondary. The APA is being bottled this weekend. This beer was my first no-sparge attempt. The Sufite was 63ppm for this batch.The Sulfite read 10ppm after fermentation was complete. Thinking of skipping  the dryhop on this one. My thinking is most of or half of META will be used up at bottling.  Thought I would report what I've seen with my system. Is my thinking right, should I reduce the META more?   By the way both these smell and taste great,though the APA not as much aroma, really made the hops pop.           
How much AA did you use? Been thinking of using the same


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 19, 2016, 04:24:50 PM
I recently got some Sulfite test strips thru Amazon. Checked the 2 beers I brewed with LO techniques. These were both Ales, EPA and APA using WY 1272. The EPA was a fly sparge with 100ppm in mash and 25ppm sparge. I checked the ph at 4.4 for both beers. After ph adjustment the EPA read  around 5ppm after 4 weeks conditioning in the bottle. This doesn't seem too high. I bottled this batch with Asorbic Acid so with the small amount of META it should be ok, does this sound right? I might mention the EPA was dryhopped in purged secondary. The APA is being bottled this weekend. This beer was my first no-sparge attempt. The Sufite was 63ppm for this batch.The Sulfite read 10ppm after fermentation was complete. Thinking of skipping  the dryhop on this one. My thinking is most of or half of META will be used up at bottling.  Thought I would report what I've seen with my system. Is my thinking right, should I reduce the META more?   By the way both these smell and taste great,though the APA not as much aroma, really made the hops pop.           
How much AA did you use? Been thinking of using the same


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I would not use AA alone by itself its a known super oxidizer.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: reverseapachemaster on November 19, 2016, 05:11:57 PM
Look forward to reading it.  Doesn't seem too intimidating.


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Awesome. Chapters 3,4,5 is where I would start ;)

What's wrong with page one?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 19, 2016, 05:14:55 PM
Look forward to reading it.  Doesn't seem too intimidating.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Awesome. Chapters 3,4,5 is where I would start ;)

What's wrong with page one?

Nothing. 3,4, and 5 are the meat of what this is all based off of though.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: scrap iron on November 19, 2016, 07:02:12 PM
I recently got some Sulfite test strips thru Amazon. Checked the 2 beers I brewed with LO techniques. These were both Ales, EPA and APA using WY 1272. The EPA was a fly sparge with 100ppm in mash and 25ppm sparge. I checked the ph at 4.4 for both beers. After ph adjustment the EPA read  around 5ppm after 4 weeks conditioning in the bottle. This doesn't seem too high. I bottled this batch with Asorbic Acid so with the small amount of META it should be ok, does this sound right? I might mention the EPA was dryhopped in purged secondary. The APA is being bottled this weekend. This beer was my first no-sparge attempt. The Sufite was 63ppm for this batch.The Sulfite read 10ppm after fermentation was complete. Thinking of skipping  the dryhop on this one. My thinking is most of or half of META will be used up at bottling.  Thought I would report what I've seen with my system. Is my thinking right, should I reduce the META more?   By the way both these smell and taste great,though the APA not as much aroma, really made the hops pop.           
How much AA did you use? Been thinking of using the same


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would not use AA alone by itself its a known super oxidizer.
   Yeah I seen the post with the highlight on not using AA alone after I bottled. I only used 1/2 tsp, the instructions said 1 tsp but I thought I would have some Sulfite left. I do have 5ppm or less in this batch with the  AA. Maybe the Beerery will comment but I will stop using AA at package if I have any Sulfites left at that time.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 19, 2016, 07:14:08 PM
I am not familiar with 1272 and its sulfur tolerance, or what it leaves residual. But I wouldn't necessarily lower your SMB dose if you can't taste it in the final product. The residual sulfites, will certainly help at packaging.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on November 19, 2016, 10:54:17 PM
I'm confused on the water chemistry.  Chemistry is not my strong suit.  :(   I added 50 mg/L of SMB (1.6 gm in 32 L) but my TDS meter jumped by 103 ???


Well 50ppm SMB (if my math is correct) would add ~ 38ppm sulfate and ~ 12ppm Na. That would definitely affect TDS.
Yup and yup!
But it should have gone up by 50 or so not 103!

I think you just found the variance in your meter.
Variance in my TDS meter may be part of the problem but there may also be an error in the way Na and SO4 is calculated for a given SMB addition.
BIG DISCLAIMER:  I am an (old) engineer and NOT a chemist.  If the following is chemistry nonsense, please correct me...gently.
SMB is Na2 S2 O5 .  While you are indeed adding 24 ppm Na and 76 ppm S and O for a 100 mg/L addition, there should be an additional TDS contribution for the O2 scavenged and that should add about 25% to the SO4 TDS.  Therefore, 100 mg/L of SMB should net 24 ppm Na and 95 ppm SO4.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 20, 2016, 12:45:29 AM
The 76 ppm SO4 is a result of fully exhausting the 100 ppm NaMeta dose. The scavenging IS what gives you the 76 ppm.

If you dosed with 100 ppm and didn't pick up any Oxygen, you'd have no added SO4.

That's my interpretation short of digging out my old Chem text.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on November 20, 2016, 04:46:26 AM
The 76 ppm SO4 is a result of fully exhausting the 100 ppm NaMeta dose. The scavenging IS what gives you the 76 ppm.

If you dosed with 100 ppm and didn't pick up any Oxygen, you'd have no added SO4.

That's my interpretation short of digging out my old Chem text.
Ha, Big Monk, I"ll bet my old Chem text (long lost) is older that yours.  ;)
But here's the way I figure it. (see BIG DISCLAIMER above):

SMB is NA2 S2 O5
the atomic weight (rounded) is:
Na = 23   X 2 = 46 
S   = 32   X 2 = 64
O   = 16   X 5 = 80
                      190

46/190          = .242 or 24%  Na
(64 +80)/190 = .758 or 76%  S and O

To fully oxidize all the S to SO4 you have to add 3 oxygen atoms with total AW of 48.  And those atoms are not in the initial weight of SMB.

So, no, the 76 ppm is NOT "a result of fully exhausting the 100 ppm NaMeta dose", it's what is in the initial dose.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 20, 2016, 12:24:12 PM
The 76 ppm SO4 is a result of fully exhausting the 100 ppm NaMeta dose. The scavenging IS what gives you the 76 ppm.

If you dosed with 100 ppm and didn't pick up any Oxygen, you'd have no added SO4.

That's my interpretation short of digging out my old Chem text.
Ha, Big Monk, I"ll bet my old Chem text (long lost) is older that yours.  ;)
But here's the way I figure it. (see BIG DISCLAIMER above):

SMB is NA2 S2 O5
the atomic weight (rounded) is:
Na = 23   X 2 = 46 
S   = 32   X 2 = 64
O   = 16   X 5 = 80
                      190

46/190          = .242 or 24%  Na
(64 +80)/190 = .758 or 76%  S and O

To fully oxidize all the S to SO4 you have to add 3 oxygen atoms with total AW of 48.  And those atoms are not in the initial weight of SMB.

So, no, the 76 ppm is NOT "a result of fully exhausting the 100 ppm NaMeta dose", it's what is in the initial dose.

I just meant to say the potential for 76 ppm exists in a 100 ppm NaMeta dose. Hypothetically speaking, if you added zero oxygen during the brewing process, you wouldn't get any SO4.

I'm just struggling I guess to justify how you would get any additional SO4 like you stated in your original post.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 20, 2016, 03:42:33 PM
Philbrew is correct. 100mg/L of SMB add a theoretical amount of approximately 101 ppm of sulfate, assuming all MB is converted to sulfate. The calculation needs to be made based on S and assume that during a full conversion from SMB to sulfate MB will get the rest of the oxygen from the system.
Certainly some S will be lost to other reactions depending on one's process, but the theoretical maximum amount that can get converted is 101 ppm not 76 ppm.
By measuring sulfate in the final beer one can calculate how much of the sulfur in the MB got converted to sulfate.
Cheers.
 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 20, 2016, 04:59:50 PM
Another question: I'm going to brew a low oxygen Rochefort 4 "clone". Full amber profile (7-17 SRM). Should I lower the pH to the "norma" lodo 5.2, or just leave it the way I would brew it non-lodo, i.e. around 5.4 to 5.5 pH?  And should I adjust the pH in the boil?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Hand of Dom on November 20, 2016, 06:19:23 PM
Another question: I'm going to brew a low oxygen Rochefort 4 "clone". Full amber profile (7-17 SRM). Should I lower the pH to the "norma" lodo 5.2, or just leave it the way I would brew it non-lodo, i.e. around 5.4 to 5.5 pH?  And should I adjust the pH in the boil?

I targeted 5.45 in Bru'n Water (not taking account of the 0.1 drop from SMB).  At that point, I wasn't measuring my alkalinity, and had been using a lower value in Bru'n Water, so my pH was probably a little higher.  Whether this was good or bad in terms of LODO I'm not sure, but the beer is nice.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 21, 2016, 01:53:07 PM
Another question: I'm going to brew a low oxygen Rochefort 4 "clone". Full amber profile (7-17 SRM). Should I lower the pH to the "norma" lodo 5.2, or just leave it the way I would brew it non-lodo, i.e. around 5.4 to 5.5 pH?  And should I adjust the pH in the boil?

Just because of the brewing method, regular or low oxygen the pH doesn't change. 5.2 is Kunze though, and I follow him. Where/how you adjust pH is up to you. Some do one, some do both.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 21, 2016, 02:09:11 PM
Asking because of this article: http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/38772710/Officiele_tekst_voor_BrewingScience.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1479740425&Signature=HJwLM%2FD5EPt8uwhlruW%2Bw5hi2yk%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOfficiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf (http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/38772710/Officiele_tekst_voor_BrewingScience.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1479740425&Signature=HJwLM%2FD5EPt8uwhlruW%2Bw5hi2yk%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOfficiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf) - "Upstream Beer Stabilisation during Wort Boiling by Addition of Gallotannins and/or PVPP". Apparently there's a huge difference wrt chill haze depending on the pH. Shelf life @5.2pH: 29.89 days vs shelf life @5.6: 15.53 days. But I assume depending on the pH the flavor will be different for an amber beer.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 21, 2016, 02:44:36 PM
Asking because of this article: http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/38772710/Officiele_tekst_voor_BrewingScience.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1479740425&Signature=HJwLM%2FD5EPt8uwhlruW%2Bw5hi2yk%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOfficiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf (http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/38772710/Officiele_tekst_voor_BrewingScience.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1479740425&Signature=HJwLM%2FD5EPt8uwhlruW%2Bw5hi2yk%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOfficiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf) - "Upstream Beer Stabilisation during Wort Boiling by Addition of Gallotannins and/or PVPP". Apparently there's a huge difference wrt chill haze depending on the pH. Shelf life @5.2pH: 29.89 days vs shelf life @5.6: 15.53 days. But I assume depending on the pH the flavor will be different for an amber beer.


Quick derail - that article has some great info. Thanks for re-posting. I read in more detail this time.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 21, 2016, 03:18:21 PM
Asking because of this article: http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/38772710/Officiele_tekst_voor_BrewingScience.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1479740425&Signature=HJwLM%2FD5EPt8uwhlruW%2Bw5hi2yk%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOfficiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf (http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/38772710/Officiele_tekst_voor_BrewingScience.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1479740425&Signature=HJwLM%2FD5EPt8uwhlruW%2Bw5hi2yk%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOfficiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf) - "Upstream Beer Stabilisation during Wort Boiling by Addition of Gallotannins and/or PVPP". Apparently there's a huge difference wrt chill haze depending on the pH. Shelf life @5.2pH: 29.89 days vs shelf life @5.6: 15.53 days. But I assume depending on the pH the flavor will be different for an amber beer.

YUP, which is why I target 5.2 :), I use that for all beers I brew.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 21, 2016, 03:29:48 PM
YUP, which is why I target 5.2 :), I use that for all beers I brew.

But I bet you don't brew Belgian amber ales.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 21, 2016, 04:25:04 PM
YUP, which is why I target 5.2 :), I use that for all beers I brew.

But I bet you don't brew Belgian amber ales.

I don't but I do brew ales, and some of them are amber. Is there a difference?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 21, 2016, 04:36:52 PM
YUP, which is why I target 5.2 :), I use that for all beers I brew.

But I bet you don't brew Belgian amber ales.

I don't but I do brew ales, and some of them are amber. Is there a difference?

No, I guess not.

EDIT: if only Martin were here. He would know what to reply ;)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 21, 2016, 04:49:09 PM
Is there any validation of the use of sulfite strips in beer?
I understand that reducing substances can artificially lower the reading, and given that LODO main hypothesis is that flavor is enhanced by keeping the malt polyphenols and tannoids in a reduced stated, these can theoretically interfere with the reading, so it seems that there is a need to validate the use of strips in beer by measuring sulfites independently.
Another concern is the interference by sulfides (which are produced by some yeasts in non-negligible amounts). Sulfides can be chelated to nickel and then filtered out but I have not read this being advised in the thread (doing this will certainly add more work to the process).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 21, 2016, 04:57:31 PM
Philbrew is correct. 100mg/L of SMB add a theoretical amount of approximately 101 ppm of sulfate, assuming all MB is converted to sulfate. The calculation needs to be made based on S and assume that during a full conversion from SMB to sulfate MB will get the rest of the oxygen from the system.
Certainly some S will be lost to other reactions depending on one's process, but the theoretical maximum amount that can get converted is 101 ppm not 76 ppm.
By measuring sulfate in the final beer one can calculate how much of the sulfur in the MB got converted to sulfate.
Cheers.

Does everybody agree this is correct? And that, therefore, the Low o2 brewing spreadsheet has to be adapted?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 21, 2016, 05:04:22 PM
Philbrew is correct. 100mg/L of SMB add a theoretical amount of approximately 101 ppm of sulfate, assuming all MB is converted to sulfate. The calculation needs to be made based on S and assume that during a full conversion from SMB to sulfate MB will get the rest of the oxygen from the system.
Certainly some S will be lost to other reactions depending on one's process, but the theoretical maximum amount that can get converted is 101 ppm not 76 ppm.
By measuring sulfate in the final beer one can calculate how much of the sulfur in the MB got converted to sulfate.
Cheers.

Does everybody agree this is correct? And that, therefore, the Low o2 brewing spreadsheet has to be adapted?

I don't agree but have not had the chance to dive into it yet. If it checks out it is an easy fix, but I won't update the sheet until I get a chance to verify.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 21, 2016, 05:39:13 PM
Is there any validation of the use of sulfite strips in beer?
I understand that reducing substances can artificially lower the reading, and given that LODO main hypothesis is that flavor is enhanced by keeping the malt polyphenols and tannoids in a reduced stated, these can theoretically interfere with the reading, so it seems that there is a need to validate the use of strips in beer by measuring sulfites independently.
Another concern is the interference by sulfides (which are produced by some yeasts in non-negligible amounts). Sulfides can be chelated to nickel and then filtered out but I have not read this being advised in the thread (doing this will certainly add more work to the process).

Sorry, not following?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Kit B on November 21, 2016, 08:11:42 PM
Philbrew is correct. 100mg/L of SMB add a theoretical amount of approximately 101 ppm of sulfate, assuming all MB is converted to sulfate. The calculation needs to be made based on S and assume that during a full conversion from SMB to sulfate MB will get the rest of the oxygen from the system.
Certainly some S will be lost to other reactions depending on one's process, but the theoretical maximum amount that can get converted is 101 ppm not 76 ppm.
By measuring sulfate in the final beer one can calculate how much of the sulfur in the MB got converted to sulfate.
Cheers.

Does everybody agree this is correct? And that, therefore, the Low o2 brewing spreadsheet has to be adapted?

Maybe I'm a rube, but I can't mathematically get 101ppm sulfate, no matter how I try.
Is someone able to show me what formula is being used to get that number?

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 21, 2016, 08:30:44 PM
Maybe I'm a rube, but I can't mathematically get 101ppm sulfate, no matter how I try.
Is someone able to show me what formula is being used to get that number?


Yeah, it would seem hard to get 101 ppm sulfate from using 100ppm SMB. Maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: techbrau on November 21, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
The theoretical maximum sulfate added from a 100 mg/l SMB dose is 101 ppm because of what philbrew said.

Think of it this way:

Sulfur has an atomic weight of 32, while oxygen has an atomic weight of 16. So a single sulfite molecule (SO3) weighs 32 + 3 * 16 = 80. When the SO3 molecule scavenges an oxygen atom, the weight of the oxygen atom is added to the total molecular weight and now you have an SO4 molecule with an atomic weight of 96. Basically, the sulfur compounds get heavier as they absorb dissolved oxygen. The molarity is staying the same (as in one sulfite molecule turns into one sulfate molecule), but because ppm indicates weight per unit volume, it has to go up as oxygen is scavenged.

Section 2.1 of the original pdf is accurate and says that 100 mg/l SMB adds 76 ppm of sulfur dioxide, sulfite, and bisulfite. It goes on to say that the amount of sulfate formed is dependent upon how much oxygen you pick up. In practice, you will not create anywhere close to 101 ppm SO4 because a lot of the sulfur compounds get blown off during the boil and fermentation.

Don't forget that the mineral profile is going to be diluted with your sparge water, and you should not be using anywhere close to 100 mg/l SMB in sparge water.

http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles.pdf
http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles-v2.pdf
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Kit B on November 21, 2016, 08:46:43 PM
Since there is also a sodium component, it's not strictly SO2,  SO3 & SO4 being formed, right?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 21, 2016, 08:48:58 PM
INFORMATION NEEDED      
Sodium metabisulfite molecular mass   190.107   g/mol
Sulfur molecular mass    32.065 g/mol
Sodium metabisulfite chemical formula   Na2O5S2   
Sulfate molecular mass 96.060 g/mol
Sulfate chemical formula SO4   
      
Given the information above      
190.107 g SMB has 2 * 32.065 g of sulfur      
Using the info above 100 g of SMB has   33.734 g of sulfur
Calculation is 100 * 2 * 32.065 / 190.107      
96.06 g sulfate has 32.065 g of sulfur      
33.734 g of sulfur fully converted to sulfate gives 101.0588774    g of sulfate
Calculation is 33.734 *96.06/ 32.065      

This calculation assumes that there is sufficient oxygen in the system to allow the oxidation to sulfate to occur
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Kit B on November 21, 2016, 08:50:22 PM
What I mean is...
Depending on water chemistry & dissolved oxygen content, could you be forming other compounds that may not be the sulfate that you are expecting?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 21, 2016, 08:57:38 PM
@ Kit B - you are correct - we are all talking about a maximum theoretical amount given the sulfur coming from SMB, but indeed some sulfur will be dissipated as SO2, some will become hydrogen sulfide, some will remain as sulfite ion and some will oxidize all the way to sulfate ion.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 21, 2016, 09:16:17 PM
Calculations for PMB

INFORMATION NEEDED PMB theoretical conversion to Sulfate      
Potassium metabisulfite molecular mass   222.31   g/mol
Sulfur molecular mass   32.065   g/mol
Potassium metabisulfite chemical formula   K2O5S2   
Sulfate molecular mass   96.060 g/mol
Sulfate chemical formula   SO4   
      
Given the information above      
222.31 g PMB has 2 * 32.065 g of sulfur      
Using the info above 100 g of PMB has   28.847 g of sulfur
Calculation is 100 * 2 * 32.065 / 222.31      
96.06 g sulfate has 32.065 g of sulfur      
28.847 g of sulfur fully converted to sulfate   86.420 g of sulfate
Calculation is 28.85 * 96.06/ 32.065      
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 21, 2016, 09:36:21 PM
Is there any validation of the use of sulfite strips in beer?
I understand that reducing substances can artificially lower the reading, and given that LODO main hypothesis is that flavor is enhanced by keeping the malt polyphenols and tannoids in a reduced stated, these can theoretically interfere with the reading, so it seems that there is a need to validate the use of strips in beer by measuring sulfites independently.
Another concern is the interference by sulfides (which are produced by some yeasts in non-negligible amounts). Sulfides can be chelated to nickel and then filtered out but I have not read this being advised in the thread (doing this will certainly add more work to the process).

Sorry, not following?

@Bryan
When one designs a chemical quantitative or semi-quantitative test, one validates the test under a set of experimental conditions and indicates what factors can confound the results of the test. In the case of the sulfite test strips, the instructions specifically warn that using them in a media with reducing agents can confound the results, and separately state that if sulfide can be present, it has to be chelated to nickel and precipitated (as sulfide can affect the reading).
There are other methods to measure sulfite and if a different method (eg, iodometric) gives you a similar result, it would indicate that that one can get accurate sulfite readings in beer or wort or mash with the strips; if not, then one may need to use a third method to reconcile the differences.
Does the question make sense now?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 22, 2016, 12:02:01 AM
Is there any validation of the use of sulfite strips in beer?
I understand that reducing substances can artificially lower the reading, and given that LODO main hypothesis is that flavor is enhanced by keeping the malt polyphenols and tannoids in a reduced stated, these can theoretically interfere with the reading, so it seems that there is a need to validate the use of strips in beer by measuring sulfites independently.
Another concern is the interference by sulfides (which are produced by some yeasts in non-negligible amounts). Sulfides can be chelated to nickel and then filtered out but I have not read this being advised in the thread (doing this will certainly add more work to the process).

Sorry, not following?

@Bryan
When one designs a chemical quantitative or semi-quantitative test, one validates the test under a set of experimental conditions and indicates what factors can confound the results of the test. In the case of the sulfite test strips, the instructions specifically warn that using them in a media with reducing agents can confound the results, and separately state that if sulfide can be present, it has to be chelated to nickel and precipitated (as sulfide can affect the reading).
There are other methods to measure sulfite and if a different method (eg, iodometric) gives you a similar result, it would indicate that that one can get accurate sulfite readings in beer or wort or mash with the strips; if not, then one may need to use a third method to reconcile the differences.
Does the question make sense now?

Why go through all that trouble? They are not meant to be that accurate or precise. Sulfite strips are a cheap way to estimate your consumption, not a precise way to determine exact sulfite amounts.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 22, 2016, 12:49:49 AM
Philbrew is correct. 100mg/L of SMB add a theoretical amount of approximately 101 ppm of sulfate, assuming all MB is converted to sulfate. The calculation needs to be made based on S and assume that during a full conversion from SMB to sulfate MB will get the rest of the oxygen from the system.
Certainly some S will be lost to other reactions depending on one's process, but the theoretical maximum amount that can get converted is 101 ppm not 76 ppm.
By measuring sulfate in the final beer one can calculate how much of the sulfur in the MB got converted to sulfate.
Cheers.

Does everybody agree this is correct? And that, therefore, the Low o2 brewing spreadsheet has to be adapted?

I think I'll be keeping it as is. Given the rather slippery nature of what converts to what in a real situation, using 76 ppm seems like a good estimate.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 22, 2016, 02:25:14 AM
Is there any validation of the use of sulfite strips in beer?
I understand that reducing substances can artificially lower the reading, and given that LODO main hypothesis is that flavor is enhanced by keeping the malt polyphenols and tannoids in a reduced stated, these can theoretically interfere with the reading, so it seems that there is a need to validate the use of strips in beer by measuring sulfites independently.
Another concern is the interference by sulfides (which are produced by some yeasts in non-negligible amounts). Sulfides can be chelated to nickel and then filtered out but I have not read this being advised in the thread (doing this will certainly add more work to the process).

Sorry, not following?

@Bryan
When one designs a chemical quantitative or semi-quantitative test, one validates the test under a set of experimental conditions and indicates what factors can confound the results of the test. In the case of the sulfite test strips, the instructions specifically warn that using them in a media with reducing agents can confound the results, and separately state that if sulfide can be present, it has to be chelated to nickel and precipitated (as sulfide can affect the reading).
There are other methods to measure sulfite and if a different method (eg, iodometric) gives you a similar result, it would indicate that that one can get accurate sulfite readings in beer or wort or mash with the strips; if not, then one may need to use a third method to reconcile the differences.
Does the question make sense now?

Why go through all that trouble? They are not meant to be that accurate or precise. Sulfite strips are a cheap way to estimate your consumption, not a precise way to determine exact sulfite amounts.

When you draw conclusions and make decisions on how to proceed using data, your data should be accurate.  Lots of people brew excellent beer without using sulfite strips, so I agree that if it is not important to them, they should not use the strips.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on November 22, 2016, 02:37:29 AM
Is there any validation of the use of sulfite strips in beer?
I understand that reducing substances can artificially lower the reading, and given that LODO main hypothesis is that flavor is enhanced by keeping the malt polyphenols and tannoids in a reduced stated, these can theoretically interfere with the reading, so it seems that there is a need to validate the use of strips in beer by measuring sulfites independently.
Another concern is the interference by sulfides (which are produced by some yeasts in non-negligible amounts). Sulfides can be chelated to nickel and then filtered out but I have not read this being advised in the thread (doing this will certainly add more work to the process).

Sorry, not following?

@Bryan
When one designs a chemical quantitative or semi-quantitative test, one validates the test under a set of experimental conditions and indicates what factors can confound the results of the test. In the case of the sulfite test strips, the instructions specifically warn that using them in a media with reducing agents can confound the results, and separately state that if sulfide can be present, it has to be chelated to nickel and precipitated (as sulfide can affect the reading).
There are other methods to measure sulfite and if a different method (eg, iodometric) gives you a similar result, it would indicate that that one can get accurate sulfite readings in beer or wort or mash with the strips; if not, then one may need to use a third method to reconcile the differences.
Does the question make sense now?

Why go through all that trouble? They are not meant to be that accurate or precise. Sulfite strips are a cheap way to estimate your consumption, not a precise way to determine exact sulfite amounts.

When you draw conclusions and make decisions on how to proceed using data, your data should be accurate.  Lots of people brew excellent beer without using sulfite strips, so I agree that if it is not important to them, they should not use the strips.
Data should also be valid.  Therefore all the "trouble" (controls).  Not trying to be a jerk but it's science.  Sorry I'm a science teacher.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 22, 2016, 02:50:00 AM
Is there any validation of the use of sulfite strips in beer?
I understand that reducing substances can artificially lower the reading, and given that LODO main hypothesis is that flavor is enhanced by keeping the malt polyphenols and tannoids in a reduced stated, these can theoretically interfere with the reading, so it seems that there is a need to validate the use of strips in beer by measuring sulfites independently.
Another concern is the interference by sulfides (which are produced by some yeasts in non-negligible amounts). Sulfides can be chelated to nickel and then filtered out but I have not read this being advised in the thread (doing this will certainly add more work to the process).

Sorry, not following?

@Bryan
When one designs a chemical quantitative or semi-quantitative test, one validates the test under a set of experimental conditions and indicates what factors can confound the results of the test. In the case of the sulfite test strips, the instructions specifically warn that using them in a media with reducing agents can confound the results, and separately state that if sulfide can be present, it has to be chelated to nickel and precipitated (as sulfide can affect the reading).
There are other methods to measure sulfite and if a different method (eg, iodometric) gives you a similar result, it would indicate that that one can get accurate sulfite readings in beer or wort or mash with the strips; if not, then one may need to use a third method to reconcile the differences.
Does the question make sense now?

Why go through all that trouble? They are not meant to be that accurate or precise. Sulfite strips are a cheap way to estimate your consumption, not a precise way to determine exact sulfite amounts.

When you draw conclusions and make decisions on how to proceed using data, your data should be accurate.  Lots of people brew excellent beer without using sulfite strips, so I agree that if it is not important to them, they should not use the strips.
Data should also be valid.  Therefore all the "trouble" (controls).  Not trying to be a jerk but it's science.  Sorry I'm a science teacher.

Very interesting diversion from topic. I actually had the opportunity to brush up on chemistry, which is something I thought I'd never do again.

Let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees here. Sulfite strips are a way of estimating leftover sulfite to approximate the "tightness" of your system. If precision is what you are after then maybe a DO meter is more your speed.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on November 22, 2016, 03:48:17 AM
I thought measuring sulfite level was the intention. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 22, 2016, 11:36:43 AM
I thought measuring sulfite level was the intention.

That's what I meant about "missing the forest for the trees". You don't really care about sulfite level. I mean you may if that's what you're after but the point of the sulfite strips is a cheap approximation of your systems DO ingress.

If you know the NaMeta dose you start with and then take even a rudimentary (and approximate) measurement of the residual sulfite level using strips, you get a ballpark figure for how much of your initial dose was consumed scavenging Oxygen.

I agree that if you were after a precise reading of sulfite level that strips aren't the way to go. That's very obvious. What it does do however is give those without DO meters, who want a general idea of how their systems perform in the Low Oxygen process, a chance to approximate in an affordable manner.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on November 22, 2016, 03:21:11 PM
I thought measuring sulfite level was the intention.

That's what I meant about "missing the forest for the trees". You don't really care about sulfite level. I mean you may if that's what you're after but the point of the sulfite strips is a cheap approximation of your systems DO ingress.

If you know the NaMeta dose you start with and then take even a rudimentary (and approximate) measurement of the residual sulfite level using strips, you get a ballpark figure for how much of your initial dose was consumed scavenging Oxygen.

I agree that if you were after a precise reading of sulfite level that strips aren't the way to go. That's very obvious. What it does do however is give those without DO meters, who want a general idea of how their systems perform in the Low Oxygen process, a chance to approximate in an affordable manner.

There are problems with the validity of DO measurements as well. As an example, in the Handbook of Brewing, August Gresser (Weihenstephan trained brewer) states: "Oxygen cannot be determined during the mashing process – one can take values from empirical procedures."
Do you have any articles in which DO was measured and correlated with other parameters?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on November 22, 2016, 08:46:12 PM
Philbrew is correct. 100mg/L of SMB add a theoretical amount of approximately 101 ppm of sulfate, assuming all MB is converted to sulfate. The calculation needs to be made based on S and assume that during a full conversion from SMB to sulfate MB will get the rest of the oxygen from the system.
Certainly some S will be lost to other reactions depending on one's process, but the theoretical maximum amount that can get converted is 101 ppm not 76 ppm.
By measuring sulfate in the final beer one can calculate how much of the sulfur in the MB got converted to sulfate.
Cheers.

Does everybody agree this is correct? And that, therefore, the Low o2 brewing spreadsheet has to be adapted?

I think I'll be keeping it as is. Given the rather slippery nature of what converts to what in a real situation, using 76 ppm seems like a good estimate.
It should not matter much, if you have a tight LODO system and are adding only 20-30 mg/L NaMeta.  If you are adding 50-100 mg/L, the underestimate of SO4 could have an impact on the SO4/Cl ratio that you are shooting for and could be important depending on beer style.

While 101 ppm is a theoretical maximum and not reasonable, I think 76 ppm may be nearing a theoretical minimum and is also not reasonable in my view.  I'm going to go with 92 ppm SO4 (for 100 mg/L NaMeta).
For me, that's a reasonable ballpark and should make SO4/Cl ratios close enough.

I use Bru'nwater and enter the extra Na and SO4 on the water report sheet.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on November 23, 2016, 11:46:50 AM
Philbrew is correct. 100mg/L of SMB add a theoretical amount of approximately 101 ppm of sulfate, assuming all MB is converted to sulfate. The calculation needs to be made based on S and assume that during a full conversion from SMB to sulfate MB will get the rest of the oxygen from the system.
Certainly some S will be lost to other reactions depending on one's process, but the theoretical maximum amount that can get converted is 101 ppm not 76 ppm.
By measuring sulfate in the final beer one can calculate how much of the sulfur in the MB got converted to sulfate.
Cheers.

Does everybody agree this is correct? And that, therefore, the Low o2 brewing spreadsheet has to be adapted?

I think I'll be keeping it as is. Given the rather slippery nature of what converts to what in a real situation, using 76 ppm seems like a good estimate.
It should not matter much, if you have a tight LODO system and are adding only 20-30 mg/L NaMeta.  If you are adding 50-100 mg/L, the underestimate of SO4 could have an impact on the SO4/Cl ratio that you are shooting for and could be important depending on beer style.

While 101 ppm is a theoretical maximum and not reasonable, I think 76 ppm may be nearing a theoretical minimum and is also not reasonable in my view.  I'm going to go with 92 ppm SO4 (for 100 mg/L NaMeta).
For me, that's a reasonable ballpark and should make SO4/Cl ratios close enough.

I use Bru'nwater and enter the extra Na and SO4 on the water report sheet.

One thing to know about the Low Oxygen Brewing Spreadsheet: The "House" water profile gets a direct input from a table I made based on 24 ppm and 76 ppm, Na and SO4 respectively. It then scales these values down and adds them to the "House" profile automatically based on the NaMeta dose rate.

The cool thing is that the values for the 100 ppm dose on the table are static, so if you change them to whatever value you like, in your case 24 and 92 for example, the table will scale to those inputs. In addition, the values in the table next to it are for sparge NaMeta additions and will automatically scale as well.

You can access the water tab by unhiding it and edit the tab by unprotecting the sheet.

I urge anyone to make edits like this to "creature comfort" values as they see fit. The sheet is not password protected. Other than what I think is a unique integration of malt "overrides" for more accurate pH estimation and incorporation of biological acid calculations, there is nothing "proprietary" about the sheet. All the references used in it's development are listed in the hidden references tab.

I only ask that if you make edits, that you do not distribute these edited sheets as the original. If distributing an edited sheet clearly mark it with comments, different color cells or change the file name to read (Edited).xls.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: wobdee on November 29, 2016, 01:08:04 PM
Are you guys still using Carafoam to help with foam? Or has malt blending, cold ferment and step mash schedule take care of lacking foam from lodo?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 29, 2016, 01:48:52 PM
Are you guys still using Carafoam to help with foam? Or has malt blending, cold ferment and step mash schedule take care of lacking foam from lodo?

No carafoam for me.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on November 29, 2016, 01:51:32 PM
49/49/2% pils/pale/carahell for the helles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 29, 2016, 02:08:28 PM
49/49/2% pils/pale/carahell for the helles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like my carahell in the 4% range and a 50/50 blend will probably make it too dark. 70/30/4 is my recipe.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on November 29, 2016, 05:05:38 PM
49/49/2% pils/pale/carahell for the helles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like my carahell in the 4% range and a 50/50 blend will probably make it too dark. 70/30/4 is my recipe.
What are your recipe thoughts for a Northern German Pils?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 29, 2016, 06:38:56 PM
49/49/2% pils/pale/carahell for the helles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like my carahell in the 4% range and a 50/50 blend will probably make it too dark. 70/30/4 is my recipe.
What are your recipe thoughts for a Northern German Pils?

50/50 blend, 40ibus. Boil for 70 add hops at 60 and 30 for me.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on November 29, 2016, 06:41:45 PM
49/49/2% pils/pale/carahell for the helles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like my carahell in the 4% range and a 50/50 blend will probably make it too dark. 70/30/4 is my recipe.
What are your recipe thoughts for a Northern German Pils?

50/50 blend, 40ibus. Boil for 70 add hops at 60 and 30 for me.

IIRC, you also prefer that malt blend for Helles Exportbiers (Dortmunders) too?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on November 29, 2016, 06:44:48 PM
49/49/2% pils/pale/carahell for the helles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like my carahell in the 4% range and a 50/50 blend will probably make it too dark. 70/30/4 is my recipe.
What are your recipe thoughts for a Northern German Pils?

50/50 blend, 40ibus. Boil for 70 add hops at 60 and 30 for me.

IIRC, you also prefer that malt blend for Helles Exportbiers (Dortmunders) too?

70/30 1% caramunichII, 24ibu. Thats basically Jahr.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on November 29, 2016, 06:47:00 PM
Gotcha! Thanks.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 01, 2016, 05:44:20 PM
Anybody purge a keg with fire? Do those of you with a DO meter care to test?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 01, 2016, 06:52:55 PM
Anybody purge a keg with fire? Do those of you with a DO meter care to test?
I'm not sure how you propose that. Any ideas.

One thing I know from safety videos, was that flames go out at about 10% CO2, which is ~18% O2. The flames burn like crazy at about 24% O2.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 01, 2016, 06:54:32 PM
See below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Y6wdj65q0&feature=share
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 01, 2016, 07:02:52 PM
See below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Y6wdj65q0&feature=share
I don't think this would work any different than purging with CO2. Oxygen would flood back in after the flames went out.
Cool as hell video though. Chemistry! Wish I'd paid more attention in Chemistry my junior year of highschool.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 01, 2016, 07:36:08 PM
That's what I thought at first too, but I don't have a method to validate. I imagine the remaining air will be less dense due to the heat, but how quickly will it go back? Could it be burned off and capped with the lid quickly?

I by no means recommend doing this with a sealed container. That would be bad.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 01, 2016, 08:22:32 PM
See below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Y6wdj65q0&feature=share
I thought that was what you had in mind. Would have to be at the stoichiometric ratio, not lean.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 01, 2016, 08:37:08 PM
You mean the amount of fuel would need to be at the ratio where it consumes all oxygen? If using denatured alcohol, rich could be dangerous.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 01, 2016, 08:42:41 PM
All in all, a riskier way to purge.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 01, 2016, 08:44:45 PM
All in all, a rad way to purge.
Fixed that for ya
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 01, 2016, 08:51:49 PM
Maybe. Or the new challenger to deep fried turkey fires.   :)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 01, 2016, 09:56:25 PM
Maybe. Or the new challenger to deep fried turkey fires.   :)
I thought there was a NASA reference in there :-/
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on December 02, 2016, 04:30:58 AM
Maybe. Or the new challenger to deep fried turkey fires.   :)
I thought there was a NASA reference in there :-/
Too soon?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 02, 2016, 01:47:30 PM
Maybe. Or the new challenger to deep fried turkey fires.   :)
I thought there was a NASA reference in there :-/
Too soon?
I don't know, it's been over 30 years... I was only like 2 when that happened.

Anyway... since I'm making a switch to smaller batches and buying 2.5 gallon kegs, it feels better and easier to fill a keg to the brim with sanitizer and push it out with 5 PSI to purge the keg. Then transfer in from the keg fermenter to "spund" (I don't have a spundapparat, only cap off the fermentation about 4 points above target FG).
Haven't been drinking as much and kegs have been lasting 2 months so I felt like it was a good time to do smaller batches.. It's much easier to handle everything, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 02, 2016, 02:16:43 PM
I think its an interesting thought. I don't know how well it would work in execution. The fill completely with sanitizer, and co2 push method is about as easy and foolproof as it gets. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 03, 2016, 12:25:41 AM
I think its an interesting thought. I don't know how well it would work in execution. The fill completely with sanitizer, and co2 push method is about as easy and foolproof as it gets.

How short are you cutting your gas in post dip tube to get that sanitizer to fill up your keg?

And another quick question regarding carbonating beers with normal commercial CO2 gas?
   -Once the beer has been spunded properly and allowed to naturally carbonate, I assume you are then using
    your CO2 just to push the beer out for dispensing?
   - If so, haven't you stated before that most normal CO2 is not fully pure and can actually add to the   oxidation of your beer over time (maybe I was imagining this)?
   -If you are dispensing with normal CO2, then doesn't the beer absorb some of this gas as the keg is slowly
    consumed over time leading to potential oxidation, or is this negligible?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 03, 2016, 03:16:16 AM
I think its an interesting thought. I don't know how well it would work in execution. The fill completely with sanitizer, and co2 push method is about as easy and foolproof as it gets.

How short are you cutting your gas in post dip tube to get that sanitizer to fill up your keg?

And another quick question regarding carbonating beers with normal commercial CO2 gas?
   -Once the beer has been spunded properly and allowed to naturally carbonate, I assume you are then using
    your CO2 just to push the beer out for dispensing?
   - If so, haven't you stated before that most normal CO2 is not fully pure and can actually add to the   oxidation of your beer over time (maybe I was imagining this)?
   -If you are dispensing with normal CO2, then doesn't the beer absorb some of this gas as the keg is slowly
    consumed over time leading to potential oxidation, or is this negligible?

I don't cut my tubes. I built a little adapter that goes from the faucet to the gas in post and I fill it though there with the lid on but the PRV open, when water comes out the PRV that means the keg is completely full. Even if it is not we are using the active yeast on the spund transfer to eat up that residual o2. Spunding will also naturally rouse the yeast which will encourage proper final attenuation.

Thats correct, Spund then normal co2 to push the beer. You are totally correct in the fact that the co2 has enough oxygen to oxidize a batch. If you force carb you WILL be over the acceptable limit of DO.
You are also correct on it oxidizing slowly, but this is why we use sulfury german lager strains. These strains not only produce sulfur(a great natural antioxidant) but the yeast themselves produce about 10ppm of sulfites for us. So those 2 things will help you protect against that. This is why sulfur can fade in a closed keg, its reacting with the oxygen in the co2.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 04, 2016, 01:17:40 PM
Okay, so how does this play into using typical ale strains then that are not sulfur producers? Is it just that the beer is consumed fairly quickly enough to not worry about any oxidation (or minimal) from normal CO2 gas used to dispense the beer?

I am assuming you are dispensing with normal CO2 gas, correct (after spunding, of course)? Or have you located a more pure form of CO2 to dispense with? 

Thanks again for fielding questions....
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebrews on December 04, 2016, 05:45:21 PM
How long are you taking to dough in?  I find that I have to add the water to the grain very slowly, otherwise I don't get good wetting of the grain.  For example, I have 10lb of pils malt in a 10g round cooler, and I'm putting in 5gal of water and I let it go in over the course of about 5 minutes and that still seemed too fast because the grain mass floated up and then later had to settle down into the water.  The last couple times I tried it, I found that I got dry spots if I didn't put it in very slow (previously I would have just run it in and then stirred it up...but I guess that is out).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 04, 2016, 08:49:37 PM
Okay, so how does this play into using typical ale strains then that are not sulfur producers? Is it just that the beer is consumed fairly quickly enough to not worry about any oxidation (or minimal) from normal CO2 gas used to dispense the beer?

I am assuming you are dispensing with normal CO2 gas, correct (after spunding, of course)? Or have you located a more pure form of CO2 to dispense with? 

Thanks again for fielding questions....


Ale yeasts will still produce some(sub 5ppm) sulfites. If anything ale low oxygen practices need to be handled with even more care because of this.
I use "normal" co2.  When you spund you are only fighting off minimal o2 ingress from the co2, but this is why the flavor of beer deteriorates over time.  We are trying to delay that as long as possible.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 04, 2016, 08:50:50 PM
How long are you taking to dough in?  I find that I have to add the water to the grain very slowly, otherwise I don't get good wetting of the grain.  For example, I have 10lb of pils malt in a 10g round cooler, and I'm putting in 5gal of water and I let it go in over the course of about 5 minutes and that still seemed too fast because the grain mass floated up and then later had to settle down into the water.  The last couple times I tried it, I found that I got dry spots if I didn't put it in very slow (previously I would have just run it in and then stirred it up...but I guess that is out).

My dough in takes 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 05, 2016, 02:33:31 PM
How long are you taking to dough in?  I find that I have to add the water to the grain very slowly, otherwise I don't get good wetting of the grain.  For example, I have 10lb of pils malt in a 10g round cooler, and I'm putting in 5gal of water and I let it go in over the course of about 5 minutes and that still seemed too fast because the grain mass floated up and then later had to settle down into the water.  The last couple times I tried it, I found that I got dry spots if I didn't put it in very slow (previously I would have just run it in and then stirred it up...but I guess that is out).

My dough in takes 10 minutes.
That's a fairly long time, but good to know. Probably takes me 5 minutes to dough in.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 07:51:47 PM
I think its an interesting thought. I don't know how well it would work in execution. The fill completely with sanitizer, and co2 push method is about as easy and foolproof as it gets.

How short are you cutting your gas in post dip tube to get that sanitizer to fill up your keg?

And another quick question regarding carbonating beers with normal commercial CO2 gas?
   -Once the beer has been spunded properly and allowed to naturally carbonate, I assume you are then using
    your CO2 just to push the beer out for dispensing?
   - If so, haven't you stated before that most normal CO2 is not fully pure and can actually add to the   oxidation of your beer over time (maybe I was imagining this)?
   -If you are dispensing with normal CO2, then doesn't the beer absorb some of this gas as the keg is slowly
    consumed over time leading to potential oxidation, or is this negligible?

I don't cut my tubes. I built a little adapter that goes from the faucet to the gas in post and I fill it though there with the lid on but the PRV open, when water comes out the PRV that means the keg is completely full. Even if it is not we are using the active yeast on the spund transfer to eat up that residual o2. Spunding will also naturally rouse the yeast which will encourage proper final attenuation.

Thats correct, Spund then normal co2 to push the beer. You are totally correct in the fact that the co2 has enough oxygen to oxidize a batch. If you force carb you WILL be over the acceptable limit of DO.
You are also correct on it oxidizing slowly, but this is why we use sulfury german lager strains. These strains not only produce sulfur(a great natural antioxidant) but the yeast themselves produce about 10ppm of sulfites for us. So those 2 things will help you protect against that. This is why sulfur can fade in a closed keg, its reacting with the oxygen in the co2.

I'm sorry man, but this flies in the face of what I've seen countless award winning breweries do that are run by educated and experienced head brewers.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 08:03:14 PM
I think its an interesting thought. I don't know how well it would work in execution. The fill completely with sanitizer, and co2 push method is about as easy and foolproof as it gets.

How short are you cutting your gas in post dip tube to get that sanitizer to fill up your keg?

And another quick question regarding carbonating beers with normal commercial CO2 gas?
   -Once the beer has been spunded properly and allowed to naturally carbonate, I assume you are then using
    your CO2 just to push the beer out for dispensing?
   - If so, haven't you stated before that most normal CO2 is not fully pure and can actually add to the   oxidation of your beer over time (maybe I was imagining this)?
   -If you are dispensing with normal CO2, then doesn't the beer absorb some of this gas as the keg is slowly
    consumed over time leading to potential oxidation, or is this negligible?

I don't cut my tubes. I built a little adapter that goes from the faucet to the gas in post and I fill it though there with the lid on but the PRV open, when water comes out the PRV that means the keg is completely full. Even if it is not we are using the active yeast on the spund transfer to eat up that residual o2. Spunding will also naturally rouse the yeast which will encourage proper final attenuation.

Thats correct, Spund then normal co2 to push the beer. You are totally correct in the fact that the co2 has enough oxygen to oxidize a batch. If you force carb you WILL be over the acceptable limit of DO.
You are also correct on it oxidizing slowly, but this is why we use sulfury german lager strains. These strains not only produce sulfur(a great natural antioxidant) but the yeast themselves produce about 10ppm of sulfites for us. So those 2 things will help you protect against that. This is why sulfur can fade in a closed keg, its reacting with the oxygen in the co2.

I'm sorry man, but this flies in the face of what I've seen countless award winning breweries do that are run by educated and experienced head brewers.

I am sorry you don't believe it, but its still true. If you don't believe me ask them for DO readings. The acceptable limit is .15ppm.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 05, 2016, 09:22:25 PM
I think its an interesting thought. I don't know how well it would work in execution. The fill completely with sanitizer, and co2 push method is about as easy and foolproof as it gets.

How short are you cutting your gas in post dip tube to get that sanitizer to fill up your keg?

And another quick question regarding carbonating beers with normal commercial CO2 gas?
   -Once the beer has been spunded properly and allowed to naturally carbonate, I assume you are then using
    your CO2 just to push the beer out for dispensing?
   - If so, haven't you stated before that most normal CO2 is not fully pure and can actually add to the   oxidation of your beer over time (maybe I was imagining this)?
   -If you are dispensing with normal CO2, then doesn't the beer absorb some of this gas as the keg is slowly
    consumed over time leading to potential oxidation, or is this negligible?

I don't cut my tubes. I built a little adapter that goes from the faucet to the gas in post and I fill it though there with the lid on but the PRV open, when water comes out the PRV that means the keg is completely full. Even if it is not we are using the active yeast on the spund transfer to eat up that residual o2. Spunding will also naturally rouse the yeast which will encourage proper final attenuation.

Thats correct, Spund then normal co2 to push the beer. You are totally correct in the fact that the co2 has enough oxygen to oxidize a batch. If you force carb you WILL be over the acceptable limit of DO.
You are also correct on it oxidizing slowly, but this is why we use sulfury german lager strains. These strains not only produce sulfur(a great natural antioxidant) but the yeast themselves produce about 10ppm of sulfites for us. So those 2 things will help you protect against that. This is why sulfur can fade in a closed keg, its reacting with the oxygen in the co2.

I'm sorry man, but this flies in the face of what I've seen countless award winning breweries do that are run by educated and experienced head brewers.
Are these the same head brewers that throw pound after pound of hops at the kettle? Just because they win awards in the category of "over hopped" doesn't mean they actually know the real nitty-gritty science of brewing. I'm not claiming to know more than they do, however I think the attitude that they are the all-knowing brewing masters needs to be rethought.
And you're absolutely right, it DOES fly in the face of these brew masters.

I had the pleasure of drinking a few Northeast IPAs yesterday. Those brewers are doing some low o2 brewing and as much as I despise the cloudy-as-f*ck orange juice beers, they really are well brewed and tasty. I just wish they'd get over the mindset that hops are everything.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 05, 2016, 09:33:25 PM

Are these the same head brewers that throw pound after pound of hops at the kettle? Just because they win awards in the category of "over hopped" doesn't mean they actually know the real nitty-gritty science of brewing. I'm not claiming to know more than they do, however I think the attitude that they are the all-knowing brewing masters needs to be rethought.
And you're absolutely right, it DOES fly in the face of these brew masters.

I had the pleasure of drinking a few Northeast IPAs yesterday. Those brewers are doing some low o2 brewing and as much as I despise the cloudy-as-f*ck orange juice beers, they really are well brewed and tasty. I just wish they'd get over the mindset that hops are everything.

Can we get over the idea that there is only one "true" type of beer or one "true" way to brew?  I mean, I don't care for helles at all, but you don't see me calling it "over malted, under hopped and insipid".  And how do you know they AREN'T all knowing brewing masters?  In the course of the first year of the podcast, I've talked to a lot of brewers whose technical knowledge would make your jaw drop.  Just becasue they don't agree with a particular practice doesn't make them less knowledgeable.  It simply makes the people who refuse to look past their own prejudices seem petty and arrogant.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 09:40:00 PM
I think its an interesting thought. I don't know how well it would work in execution. The fill completely with sanitizer, and co2 push method is about as easy and foolproof as it gets.

How short are you cutting your gas in post dip tube to get that sanitizer to fill up your keg?

And another quick question regarding carbonating beers with normal commercial CO2 gas?
   -Once the beer has been spunded properly and allowed to naturally carbonate, I assume you are then using
    your CO2 just to push the beer out for dispensing?
   - If so, haven't you stated before that most normal CO2 is not fully pure and can actually add to the   oxidation of your beer over time (maybe I was imagining this)?
   -If you are dispensing with normal CO2, then doesn't the beer absorb some of this gas as the keg is slowly
    consumed over time leading to potential oxidation, or is this negligible?

I don't cut my tubes. I built a little adapter that goes from the faucet to the gas in post and I fill it though there with the lid on but the PRV open, when water comes out the PRV that means the keg is completely full. Even if it is not we are using the active yeast on the spund transfer to eat up that residual o2. Spunding will also naturally rouse the yeast which will encourage proper final attenuation.

Thats correct, Spund then normal co2 to push the beer. You are totally correct in the fact that the co2 has enough oxygen to oxidize a batch. If you force carb you WILL be over the acceptable limit of DO.
You are also correct on it oxidizing slowly, but this is why we use sulfury german lager strains. These strains not only produce sulfur(a great natural antioxidant) but the yeast themselves produce about 10ppm of sulfites for us. So those 2 things will help you protect against that. This is why sulfur can fade in a closed keg, its reacting with the oxygen in the co2.

I'm sorry man, but this flies in the face of what I've seen countless award winning breweries do that are run by educated and experienced head brewers.
Are these the same head brewers that throw pound after pound of hops at the kettle? Just because they win awards in the category of "over hopped" doesn't mean they actually know the real nitty-gritty science of brewing. I'm not claiming to know more than they do, however I think the attitude that they are the all-knowing brewing masters needs to be rethought.
And you're absolutely right, it DOES fly in the face of these brew masters.

I had the pleasure of drinking a few Northeast IPAs yesterday. Those brewers are doing some low o2 brewing and as much as I despise the cloudy-as-f*ck orange juice beers, they really are well brewed and tasty. I just wish they'd get over the mindset that hops are everything.

No, these are the professionals that eat, sleep and breathe beer, who risked their livelihoods on a career that, up until recently, was not seen as particularly viable. These are the guys with degrees and certifications in matters relating to brewing and who are willing, able and motivated to pursue any possible avenue in the pursuit of making the best beer possible. And these are the guys that are chuckling when I mention some of the LODO stuff that is talked about on here.

Its weird, the open mind it took to pursue this LODO stuff has seemed to close everyones mind to anything that flies in the face of it.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 05, 2016, 09:42:17 PM
I think its an interesting thought. I don't know how well it would work in execution. The fill completely with sanitizer, and co2 push method is about as easy and foolproof as it gets.

How short are you cutting your gas in post dip tube to get that sanitizer to fill up your keg?

And another quick question regarding carbonating beers with normal commercial CO2 gas?
   -Once the beer has been spunded properly and allowed to naturally carbonate, I assume you are then using
    your CO2 just to push the beer out for dispensing?
   - If so, haven't you stated before that most normal CO2 is not fully pure and can actually add to the   oxidation of your beer over time (maybe I was imagining this)?
   -If you are dispensing with normal CO2, then doesn't the beer absorb some of this gas as the keg is slowly
    consumed over time leading to potential oxidation, or is this negligible?

I don't cut my tubes. I built a little adapter that goes from the faucet to the gas in post and I fill it though there with the lid on but the PRV open, when water comes out the PRV that means the keg is completely full. Even if it is not we are using the active yeast on the spund transfer to eat up that residual o2. Spunding will also naturally rouse the yeast which will encourage proper final attenuation.

Thats correct, Spund then normal co2 to push the beer. You are totally correct in the fact that the co2 has enough oxygen to oxidize a batch. If you force carb you WILL be over the acceptable limit of DO.
You are also correct on it oxidizing slowly, but this is why we use sulfury german lager strains. These strains not only produce sulfur(a great natural antioxidant) but the yeast themselves produce about 10ppm of sulfites for us. So those 2 things will help you protect against that. This is why sulfur can fade in a closed keg, its reacting with the oxygen in the co2.

I'm sorry man, but this flies in the face of what I've seen countless award winning breweries do that are run by educated and experienced head brewers.

And keep in mind if these are larger sized breweries, then by default they are already low - dissolved oxygen brewing due to their larger wort production.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 09:43:55 PM
They chuckle at oxygen in beer making and packaging? If so they certainly aren't who they say they are. It's in every professional brewing text!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 09:52:01 PM
They chuckle at oxygen in beer making and packaging? If so they certainly aren't who they say they are. It's in every professional brewing text!

they chuckle at the thought of using meta in a medium with a ph in the 4's and 5's and the belief that beverage grade co2 oxidizes beer.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 05, 2016, 09:53:19 PM
They chuckle at oxygen in beer making and packaging? If so they certainly aren't who they say they are. It's in every professional brewing text!

I agree. I've had too many beers from local breweries lately who haven't dialed in their new canning process. Their beer is often good at the brewery but, lord, their canned product is just muddled/muted and often darker in color. If this doesn't point to oxygen ingress during their packaging step, I don't know what does.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 10:09:56 PM
They chuckle at oxygen in beer making and packaging? If so they certainly aren't who they say they are. It's in every professional brewing text!

they chuckle at the thought of using meta in a medium with a ph in the 4's and 5's and the belief that beverage grade co2 oxidizes beer.

I am all ears if you can find a cheaper and better way to ward off hot side oxidation with out it. As it has ALWAYS been said meta is a band aid for us small brewers.

Excerps about co2
"On another note, there was some discussion on the grade/quality of CO2. I have researched this extensively as I have struggled with this in the past. The following CO2 grades are available in Europe and the US and are all considered 'food grade'. Below I have provided ppm levels of o2 in the gas and what the resultant ppb levels of DO would be in the carbonated beer (assuming an added 1 vol of co2 with the respective gas).

gas / region / o2 impurity level / resultant DO level in beer

CO2 3.0 / EU / <200 ppm / <286 ppb
CO2 4.5 / EU / <15 ppm / <21 ppb
CO2 4.8 / EU / <2 ppm / <3 ppb
CO2 (beverage grade) / US / <30 ppm / <43 ppb

(Those ppm levels are the upper spec limits and so actual levels will be lower.)

As you can see these are not meaningless amounts, specially when we are aiming for less than 150 ppb total packaged DO. I have been buying CO2 4.8 here in Europe as it is no more expensive than the lower grades."

"I was waiting to post this until I tapped the second keg of my first lodo batch, but since the topic of oxidation with force carbing has come up, i'll post about my recent experience.

My first lodo helles batch made about 12 gallons, split across 3 kegs. Unfortunately I was only able to carbonate to about 2 volumes due spunding valve leaks and crap hydrometers. For serving I went ahead and hooked it up to my standard 10-12 psi and thus gave it the extra 0.5 vols or so. Well its been a little over a month and the sweet grainy flavor that was initially very prominent is 100% gone and has been replaced by a flavor reminiscent of white wine (although not to the same extent as my usual 100% force carbonated beers).

The remaining 2 kegs haven't seen any force carbonation yet so it'll be interesting when i tap them to see if they still have the sweet grainy flavor and if they also diminish with time."

"As much as I don't want to believe that force carbonation is the devil, I guess it is. This will be problematic for folks that ferment in containers that can't hold pressure and don't have free time mid fermentation (which is usually mid week as well) to rack to a keg. Is bottle conditioning the answer to the busy brewer's dilemma?

From what I've read, it also sounds like bottling from the keg results in this loss of flavor, even when using what has generally been thought of as good tools and good procedure. This is unfortunate as I bottle a lot of beer for competitions well in advance of the competition date."

"http://m.co2meter.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.co2meter.com%2Fblogs%2Fnews%2F16831989-why-the-grade-of-co2-gas-you-are-using-is-important&utm_referrer=#2730"

If you would like I have the calcs the prove it, I am sure I could find them.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on December 05, 2016, 10:28:19 PM
And keep in mind if these are larger sized breweries, then by default they are already low - dissolved oxygen brewing due to their larger wort production.

Though I wonder if their larger scale is moot if they aren't using de-oxygenated water for mashing.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 05, 2016, 10:46:06 PM
And keep in mind if these are larger sized breweries, then by default they are already low - dissolved oxygen brewing due to their larger wort production.

Though I wonder if their larger scale is moot if they aren't using de-oxygenated water for mashing.
Same
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 11:17:47 PM
Yea if they are not processing their water in one way shape or form, then it is moot. Cause there is more DO in tap water at strike temps then allowed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 05, 2016, 11:19:52 PM
They chuckle at oxygen in beer making and packaging? If so they certainly aren't who they say they are. It's in every professional brewing text!

they chuckle at the thought of using meta in a medium with a ph in the 4's and 5's and the belief that beverage grade co2 oxidizes beer.

I am all ears if you can find a cheaper and better way to ward off hot side oxidation with out it. As it has ALWAYS been said meta is a band aid for us small brewers.

Excerps about co2
"On another note, there was some discussion on the grade/quality of CO2. I have researched this extensively as I have struggled with this in the past. The following CO2 grades are available in Europe and the US and are all considered 'food grade'. Below I have provided ppm levels of o2 in the gas and what the resultant ppb levels of DO would be in the carbonated beer (assuming an added 1 vol of co2 with the respective gas).

gas / region / o2 impurity level / resultant DO level in beer

CO2 3.0 / EU / <200 ppm / <286 ppb
CO2 4.5 / EU / <15 ppm / <21 ppb
CO2 4.8 / EU / <2 ppm / <3 ppb
CO2 (beverage grade) / US / <30 ppm / <43 ppb

(Those ppm levels are the upper spec limits and so actual levels will be lower.)

As you can see these are not meaningless amounts, specially when we are aiming for less than 150 ppb total packaged DO. I have been buying CO2 4.8 here in Europe as it is no more expensive than the lower grades."

"I was waiting to post this until I tapped the second keg of my first lodo batch, but since the topic of oxidation with force carbing has come up, i'll post about my recent experience.

My first lodo helles batch made about 12 gallons, split across 3 kegs. Unfortunately I was only able to carbonate to about 2 volumes due spunding valve leaks and crap hydrometers. For serving I went ahead and hooked it up to my standard 10-12 psi and thus gave it the extra 0.5 vols or so. Well its been a little over a month and the sweet grainy flavor that was initially very prominent is 100% gone and has been replaced by a flavor reminiscent of white wine (although not to the same extent as my usual 100% force carbonated beers).

The remaining 2 kegs haven't seen any force carbonation yet so it'll be interesting when i tap them to see if they still have the sweet grainy flavor and if they also diminish with time."

"As much as I don't want to believe that force carbonation is the devil, I guess it is. This will be problematic for folks that ferment in containers that can't hold pressure and don't have free time mid fermentation (which is usually mid week as well) to rack to a keg. Is bottle conditioning the answer to the busy brewer's dilemma?

From what I've read, it also sounds like bottling from the keg results in this loss of flavor, even when using what has generally been thought of as good tools and good procedure. This is unfortunate as I bottle a lot of beer for competitions well in advance of the competition date."

"http://m.co2meter.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.co2meter.com%2Fblogs%2Fnews%2F16831989-why-the-grade-of-co2-gas-you-are-using-is-important&utm_referrer=#2730"

If you would like I have the calcs the prove it, I am sure I could find them.

So, after reading this, and checking out the link, should we all be shooting to use beverage grade CO2 as our best shot at getting the highest quality carbon dioxide?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 11:24:28 PM
is meta even effective as an anti oxidant at the higher ph that beer sits at?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 11:27:02 PM
Yea. If the beer is naturally carbed, and then co2 used as push only it should be good for 6-7 months before flavor will start to fade.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 11:27:29 PM
is meta even effective as an anti oxidant at the higher ph that beer sits at?

Of course it is.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 11:28:33 PM
is meta even effective as an anti oxidant at the higher ph that beer sits at?

Of course it is.

you sure?

http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/Winemaking-SO2.pdf
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 11:30:30 PM
is meta even effective as an anti oxidant at the higher ph that beer sits at?

Of course it is.

you sure?



http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/Winemaking-SO2.pdf



110%
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 11:30:56 PM
I know I just cited a wine making pdf on a beer forum, but I have yet to hear you discuss the ph in which you are using meta, and the long documented and extensively researched conclusions that wine makers have drawn-which is that meta in ineffective as an antixodant at ph's above 4.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 11:37:24 PM
I know I just cited a wine making pdf on a beer forum, but I have yet to hear you discuss the ph in which you are using meta, and the long documented and extensively researched conclusions that wine makers have drawn-which is that meta in ineffective as an antixodant at ph's above 4.

Wine is not beer. I will leave this for you to peruse( specifically the antioxidant section):
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 11:45:47 PM
I know I just cited a wine making pdf on a beer forum, but I have yet to hear you discuss the ph in which you are using meta, and the long documented and extensively researched conclusions that wine makers have drawn-which is that meta in ineffective as an antixodant at ph's above 4.

Wine is not beer. I will leave this for you to peruse( specifically the antioxidant section):
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/)

are you using yourself as a source?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 11:47:02 PM
winemakers have about a trillion times more experience working with meta. I'm not talking wine here, just meta. And their research indicates it is not an effective antioxidant at the ph range that most beers fall into.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 05, 2016, 11:51:52 PM
Your ignorance is showing. I left you with the links and info.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 05, 2016, 11:57:14 PM
Your ignorance is showing. I left you with the links and info.

well, this certainly isn't nice. I challenged your ascertain that meta is an effective antioxidant in beer and gave you a well written, independent and reputable source for that belief. you called me ignorant and used yourself as a source for your belief to the contrary.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 12:03:23 AM
Hah, you continue to prove you didn't even click on the link. That link is FULL of research papers and brewing literature.
After you get done ACTUALLY clicking the link to find the answers you seek. Call bsg and tell them they are selling bunk products to professional brewers.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161206/6cf0f98e9d0d0aac3512d99a13ae65fb.jpg)

Taken directly from my grain room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 06, 2016, 12:11:43 AM
SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 06, 2016, 12:25:50 AM
SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

@bayareabrewer
I, for one, would like to read all the articles that you mention. I am really interested.
Science is always changing but the state of the art knowledge in the beer world is that if added to beer, sulfites would prevent oxidation, but brewers are so far reluctant to add them to beer so we can only refer to the literature. For example, Bamforth talks about it in the Flavor Stability chapter in Beer, a quality perspective.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 06, 2016, 12:30:17 AM
SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

@bayareabrewer
I, for one, would like to read all the articles that you mention. I am really interested.
Science is always changing but the state of the art knowledge in the beer world is that if added to beer, sulfites would prevent oxidation, but brewers are so far reluctant to add them to beer so we can only refer to the literature. For example, Bamforth talks about it in the Flavor Stability chapter in Beer, a quality perspective.

https://winemakermag.com/634-solving-the-sulfite-puzzle

http://vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH2.htm

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page4.htm

https://beerbrew.com/words/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SO2science.pdf

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf

here's a few. This was just from a google search. Give me a little more time and I could find about a billion more. Winemakers know meta like the back of their hands, they've been using it forever. It's common accepted and proven that meta is not an effective antioxidant at higher ph's.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 06, 2016, 12:39:35 AM
I have to assume the wine industry didn't write  http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Sulfites-in-beer-reviewing-regulation-analysis-and-role.pdf  as well. As mentioned, Charlie Bamforth is pretty universally respected in modern day brewing science and concurs with this. Knowledge progresses with time. I'm blown away at the changes I've seen in homebrewing info alone since '93.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 06, 2016, 12:42:01 AM
SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

@bayareabrewer
I, for one, would like to read all the articles that you mention. I am really interested.
Science is always changing but the state of the art knowledge in the beer world is that if added to beer, sulfites would prevent oxidation, but brewers are so far reluctant to add them to beer so we can only refer to the literature. For example, Bamforth talks about it in the Flavor Stability chapter in Beer, a quality perspective.

https://winemakermag.com/634-solving-the-sulfite-puzzle

http://vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH2.htm

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page4.htm

https://beerbrew.com/words/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SO2science.pdf

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf

here's a few. This was just from a google search. Give me a little more time and I could find about a billion more. Winemakers know meta like the back of their hands, they've been using it forever. It's common accepted and proven that meta is not an effective antioxidant at higher ph's.

While what you posted is interesting, Bryan, along with others, have shown empirically through dissolved oxygen readings of all phases of the brewing process, that NaMeta without a doubt acts as an oxygen scavenger and an active protector against oxygen ingress.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: mabrungard on December 06, 2016, 12:45:16 AM
It's common accepted and proven that meta is not an effective antioxidant at higher ph's.

Typical pH difference between wine and beer is about 1 SU. Is that really enough to render meta ineffective? I will concede that the difference may render it less effective.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 06, 2016, 01:08:24 AM
SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

@bayareabrewer
I, for one, would like to read all the articles that you mention. I am really interested.
Science is always changing but the state of the art knowledge in the beer world is that if added to beer, sulfites would prevent oxidation, but brewers are so far reluctant to add them to beer so we can only refer to the literature. For example, Bamforth talks about it in the Flavor Stability chapter in Beer, a quality perspective.

https://winemakermag.com/634-solving-the-sulfite-puzzle

http://vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH2.htm

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page4.htm

https://beerbrew.com/words/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SO2science.pdf

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf

here's a few. This was just from a google search. Give me a little more time and I could find about a billion more. Winemakers know meta like the back of their hands, they've been using it forever. It's common accepted and proven that meta is not an effective antioxidant at higher ph's.

Thanks so much! So, the point these articles make is that according to the SO2 dissociation pK, almost all of the SO2 is present as a bisulfite ion HSO3- at beer pH (4 to 4.5). Given I have not read any wine research at all, I concede that for wine you may need at least some SO2 to be present as sulfur dioxide.
It is a big leap however to state that this concept applies as-is to fermented beer or to beer wort. There are many research papers that directly or indirectly suggest a positive role for sulfites affecting the formation of staling compounds, and no paper I know of that has demonstrated the contrary (ie, sulfites having no effect on beer oxidation).
If you find literature demonstrating that the same effect applies to beer, please let us know.
Cheers :-)

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 06, 2016, 03:55:16 AM
Hah, you continue to prove you didn't even click on the link. That link is FULL of research papers and brewing literature.
After you get done ACTUALLY clicking the link to find the answers you seek. Call bsg and tell them they are selling bunk products to professional brewers.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161206/6cf0f98e9d0d0aac3512d99a13ae65fb.jpg)

Taken directly from my grain room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, doesn't BSG sell pH stabilizer 5.2? That is a bunk product.  :P

But, that aside, we're using the NaMeta in a mash pH range of 5.1-5.4 for the bulk of its protection anyway. The other protection is kegging with extract left and naturally carbonating. So whether NaMeta is effective in the pH range of 4-4.5 is a moot point. Is it not?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on December 06, 2016, 04:14:36 AM
Let's calm down a bit.  Remember, we are all brothers and sisters of the brewing community.  We don't need to be calling each other names. Claiming someone is ignorant is unfair, as in most scientific fields, one can find studies that confirm multiple hypotheses.  Things stated here are not always scientific laws, just the latest findings that may change either way with further research .  Also, much of the research regarding hot-side oxidation aren't readily available to homebrewers- and even then- the texts cost hundreds of dollars, so the claim of ignorance isn't necessary.  How can one ignore something that isn't readily available to make the person aware of it in the first place?  For me it is frustrating that sources on the effects of HSO-or other brewing science-isn't easily accessible.  That's the bad thing about science done by people  concerned about profit or industry and not public education.

As far as post fermentation oxidation,  I think pro and amateur brewers acknowledge that is real so we don't even need to argue about that. Most of us have experienced bad canning or a bottle that have been on the shelf for too long and that research is easily accessible.

Finally, what one considers the superior style is irrelevant as we all have our personal preferences. I used to love the west-coast IPA, got burned out and started drinking and appreciating a good helles.  Now after brewing a wedding IPA for my lovely wife and spending a nice honeymoon in SoCal, I can't get enough west-coast IPA.  As my Dad always says, "Opinions are like a$$holes.  Everybody has one and they all stink."  Just RDWHAHB and enjoy your helles or IPA or mild or whatever and enjoy the discussion.

EDIT:  Bryan, I wasn't trying to pick on you for claiming someone is ignorant. Anyone following these discussions knows you've taken your share of unnecessary flak.  I appreciate the perspective you have to offer as well as the perspectives of everyone on here.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 06, 2016, 01:13:18 PM
At final beer pH (let's say 3.8-4.4 to be generous), much of the SO2 will be in the form of bisulfite (HSO3-) via the equilibrium of SO2 + H2O <--> HSO3- + H+. The lower end of that pH range will have more of the SO2 form and the higher end of that range will be predominantly HSO3-. The important point here though is that this is an equilibrium (double headed arrows) and thus HSO3- can be thought of as a reserve for SO2. As the SO2 is consumed the equilibrium will produce more of it from HSO3-. Some algebraic manipulation of simple acid-dissociation reaction equations yields:

[SO2"available"]/[SO3-2] = 1 + 10^(7.2 - pH).

At pH 4.5 this would give a ratio of ~ 500:1 of "available" SO2 : sulfite (SO3-2).


Bisulfite itself (HSO3-) is also an antioxidant, I think.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 06, 2016, 01:25:02 PM
5 ppm of NaMeta will protect against 1 ppm of O2, leaving behind a certain amount of Na and SO4 in the process.

It doesn't have to be anymore complicated than that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 01:51:48 PM
Let's calm down a bit.  Remember, we are all brothers and sisters of the brewing community.  We don't need to be calling each other names. Claiming someone is ignorant is unfair, as in most scientific fields, one can find studies that confirm multiple hypotheses.  Things stated here are not always scientific laws, just the latest findings that may change either way with further research .  Also, much of the research regarding hot-side oxidation aren't readily available to homebrewers- and even then- the texts cost hundreds of dollars, so the claim of ignorance isn't necessary.  How can one ignore something that isn't readily available to make the person aware of it in the first place?  For me it is frustrating that sources on the effects of HSO-or other brewing science-isn't easily accessible.  That's the bad thing about science done by people  concerned about profit or industry and not public education.

As far as post fermentation oxidation,  I think pro and amateur brewers acknowledge that is real so we don't even need to argue about that. Most of us have experienced bad canning or a bottle that have been on the shelf for too long and that research is easily accessible.

Finally, what one considers the superior style is irrelevant as we all have our personal preferences. I used to love the west-coast IPA, got burned out and started drinking and appreciating a good helles.  Now after brewing a wedding IPA for my lovely wife and spending a nice honeymoon in SoCal, I can't get enough west-coast IPA.  As my Dad always says, "Opinions are like a$$holes.  Everybody has one and they all stink."  Just RDWHAHB and enjoy your helles or IPA or mild or whatever and enjoy the discussion.

EDIT:  Bryan, I wasn't trying to pick on you for claiming someone is ignorant. Anyone following these discussions knows you've taken your share of unnecessary flak.  I appreciate the perspective you have to offer as well as the perspectives of everyone on here.

I called him ignorant because I provided a link with all the necessary information he requested, but refused to simply click on the link and look. It doesn't get easier than that.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 01:56:33 PM
Hah, you continue to prove you didn't even click on the link. That link is FULL of research papers and brewing literature.
After you get done ACTUALLY clicking the link to find the answers you seek. Call bsg and tell them they are selling bunk products to professional brewers.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161206/6cf0f98e9d0d0aac3512d99a13ae65fb.jpg)

Taken directly from my grain room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, doesn't BSG sell pH stabilizer 5.2? That is a bunk product.  :P

But, that aside, we're using the NaMeta in a mash pH range of 5.1-5.4 for the bulk of its protection anyway. The other protection is kegging with extract left and naturally carbonating. So whether NaMeta is effective in the pH range of 4-4.5 is a moot point. Is it not?

Yes and no, the yeast themselves are going to produce suflites. So while WE don't use sulfites for this, many pro brewers do( filtering, force carbonation, bottling, and oxidation though bottle caps). But back to the topic of sulfites, if pH was the case then the sulfites produced from the yeast wouldn't matter, and wouldn't work....But this is far from the case, and easily googleable.

For instance....
http://www.suntory.com/sic/research/t_genome/detail_02.html (http://www.suntory.com/sic/research/t_genome/detail_02.html)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 06, 2016, 03:40:25 PM
Besides Bayareabrewer being about 6 months late to the argument and hate against low O2, and as much as I'd LOVE to revisit that old chestnut, we should get back on topic of questions about low O2.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 06, 2016, 04:42:40 PM
I apologize for the can of worms I've opened in this thread. I'll leave y'all to your echo chamber.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 06, 2016, 04:49:49 PM
I apologize for the can of worms I've opened in this thread. I'll leave y'all to your echo chamber.

This has been a very inclusive thread with many long time members of the forum asking questions, trying the methods and reporting positive results.

I don't think echo chamber applies here but that notwithstanding, don't stop posting on this thread. There is a lot of information that we have tried to stockpile at the site. Academic articles, Technical articles, spreadsheets, etc  that you may find of some use and if you read any of that stuff and have a different reaction, it's always nice to have another contributor.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 06, 2016, 04:50:06 PM
I apologize for the can of worms I've opened in this thread. I'll leave y'all to your echo chamber.

classy.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 06, 2016, 04:56:43 PM
It's very simple to do the mini-mash experiment and see for yourself what the combination of pre-boiling and NaMeta has on the flavor, color and oxygen level of the produced wort. I'd suggest you do the experiment and then you can come back and let us know what you found.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 06, 2016, 05:11:53 PM
Your ignorance is showing. I left you with the links and info.

Be careful.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 06, 2016, 05:15:00 PM
I apologize for the can of worms I've opened in this thread. I'll leave y'all to your echo chamber.

Please don't.  Assumptions need to be challenged, defended and explained.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 06, 2016, 05:19:47 PM
have there been an large scale, blind tastings, where the participants don't know the variable or what they should be looking for?

So far, I see a lot of people trying out to LODO method, and then saying they taste a difference. The mind is a funny thing when you are actively looking for a result.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 05:20:54 PM
have there been an large scale, blind tastings, where the participants don't know the variable or what they should be looking for?

So far, I see a lot of people trying out to LODO method, and then saying they taste a difference. The mind is a funny thing when you are actively looking for a result.

Yup.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 06, 2016, 05:23:21 PM
on a homebrew level?

maybe lets not get into this. From reading past posts here, most people that engage with you on anything more than a surface level get called amateur hobbyists, or in my case, ignorant.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 06, 2016, 05:30:54 PM
have there been an large scale, blind tastings, where the participants don't know the variable or what they should be looking for?

So far, I see a lot of people trying out to LODO method, and then saying they taste a difference. The mind is a funny thing when you are actively looking for a result.

Really, just do the mini-mash experiment. It's quite simple to put together and I tested a group of people on it who don't even drink beer. Wort in red cups so they can't see the color difference, allowing them to smell or not smell before tasting, they all could easily pick out the low-O2 sample and all preferred its flavor as a warm sweet beverage.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 06, 2016, 05:32:48 PM
on a homebrew level?

maybe lets not get into this. From reading past posts here, most people that engage with you on anything more than a surface level get called amateur hobbyists, or in my case, ignorant.

Not that Bryan needs me to interject, but as someone who battled with him historically, I'd think you would find that I, and many others who have received some very valuable resources () from him, would say he's a pretty good guy to collaborate with.

Just back up and review some of the arguments you have made over the past 24 hours and re-evaluate whether the opposition to them is what's got you fired up, or whether you've been offended personally. Both are easily remedied outside of this thread.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 06, 2016, 05:40:50 PM
on a homebrew level?

maybe lets not get into this. From reading past posts here, most people that engage with you on anything more than a surface level get called amateur hobbyists, or in my case, ignorant.
Yes, let's NOT get into this. This is so June of 2016. This thread is for questions and information about low oxygen brewing. Not arguing the merits and trying to disprove the work people have done for the past 2 years.
I admit, like Derek, I had a long point of contention with Bryan, but the science part of my brain knew that this had merit and wanted to try it for myself. Boom, better beer. It's a process, it's like learning to brew all over again. It's exciting. So please, stay, discuss. But arguing against this idea will get you nowhere. We've been there, seriously. If you want to get your fill of that, we can surely point you to those threads from 6 months ago.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 05:47:26 PM
I will again post the link to our extensive brewing library, that we have made free and accessible to any and all. There are many papers on antioxidants, and their effectiveness contained therein.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/)

It is also a sticky on the top of the All grain brewing page here, if you think I am just nonsensically linking "myself".

I am not the man who came up with the brewing science, I merely rediscovered it, and try to logically put it in terms we as homebrewers can use. So there again these are not my ideals, if you challenge them it means nothing to me, you will have to take it up with people much smarter than myself (Bamforth, Kunze, Narziss, AEB, etc).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 06, 2016, 05:49:58 PM
I'll echo that statement. I was extremely put off by the way things were initially presented (or not) on this forum ~6 months ago. Since then, I've reevaluated my processes, read much of the literature related to oxygen's role in beer, did the mini-mash experiment to convince myself this wasn't just some fad to chase (with DO measurements). After all of that I started to realize that this is an evidence-based and scientifically-sound methodology for a home brewer to limit oxygen uptake.

Bryan has fielded every question under the sun regarding its implementation and has been quite forthcoming with sharing peer-reviewed sources and brewing texts.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 06, 2016, 06:40:48 PM
I think we all agree we need to stick to the science. We have enough scientific questions as it is.
To summarize my understanding of recent topics and my two cents on them:

- Sulfites do have antioxidant effects in beer. There are published papers on the subject (see Guido 2016 review).
- Sulfites are likely to have an antioxidant effect in wort but there is no published evidence to support this. (And yes, many observations from Brian and other brewers).
- Many authors state that dissolved oxygen cannot be measured in the mash (Bamforth, Gresser) and the published data does not report DO. I have seen tannoids and chemoluminiscence to compare mashes. (So, reference to the DO meter as evidence of the antioxidant effect of oxygen in the mash is questionable; but the chemoluminiscence data is solid).  If anyone has documented validation of DO meters under mash conditions, kindly provide....
- Sulfites may not be the solution for ales. My personal observations are that even at 30ppm SMB in the mash, they can be perceived in the final beer as either sulfite or sulfide flavors. More data is need, but I stopped using them for ales (except for weissbier yeast). I think the effect is yeast dependent and not temperature dependent because I did not notice it either a weissbier or a dampfbier, but again more data is needed.
- Let's not forget that, as an example, there is published data indicating that the preference for a fresh vs a stale lager was 50/50 so low oxygen may not make "better" beer for everyone.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Phil_M on December 06, 2016, 06:42:10 PM
I also was one of the folks arguing against all this back in the day. The recent dialogue on this forum on the matter has been really helpful, and the result from Hoosier and other encouraging.

Though I personally have yet to try these methods myself, I'm close to doing so. I've never been able to rationalize why "doesn't apply on a homebrew scale" exists, it's not like the science is fundamentally different. The low oxygen approach is, so far, the best explanation of why this "scale affect" happens, and how to reduce it. I'm hoping to brew a "lower" oxygen batch sometime soon to test all this out.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 06, 2016, 06:55:38 PM

- Let's not forget that, as an example, there is published data indicating that the preference for a fresh vs a stale lager was 50/50 so low oxygen may not make "better" beer for everyone.

And this certainly is true, sadly. It's a matter of what you come to know as "fresh" beer, thinking it's the best there is, and developing a taste for that flavor quality.
But I suppose the proles only knew low grade chocolate and stale bread. I don't know why one wouldn't jump up and down when something good and fresh was presented to them.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 06, 2016, 06:56:35 PM
have there been an large scale, blind tastings, where the participants don't know the variable or what they should be looking for?

So far, I see a lot of people trying out to LODO method, and then saying they taste a difference. The mind is a funny thing when you are actively looking for a result.

Really, just do the mini-mash experiment. It's quite simple to put together and I tested a group of people on it who don't even drink beer. Wort in red cups so they can't see the color difference, allowing them to smell or not smell before tasting, they all could easily pick out the low-O2 sample and all preferred its flavor as a warm sweet beverage.

Still, good data is needed.
- Even detractors of hot side oxidation recognize the effect in color (see O'Rourke)
- To my knowledge, the DO meter is not validated to measure DO under mash conditions
- The see-for-yourself answer is not a valid scientific answer, so until you have the data, you can only say that your observations seem to suggest that but these observations need to be validated by a blinded test
BTW this is coming from someone that has made the same observations in wort...

And in the end, the effect needs to be proven in the final beer, doing many experiments with many yeasts, ensuring that the control beer is well brewed and tastes as planned, doing the well-known triangle test to tease out the odd beer, and if found, check whether the beer is indeed better.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 06, 2016, 07:01:24 PM
I also was one of the folks arguing against all this back in the day. The recent dialogue on this forum on the matter has been really helpful, and the result from Hoosier and other encouraging.

Though I personally have yet to try these methods myself, I'm close to doing so. I've never been able to rationalize why "doesn't apply on a homebrew scale" exists, it's not like the science is fundamentally different. The low oxygen approach is, so far, the best explanation of why this "scale affect" happens, and how to reduce it. I'm hoping to brew a "lower" oxygen batch sometime soon to test all this out.



Yeah, I was definitely against the idea and the way things went down before. I also couldn't see the feasibility of pulling it off at home, and maybe was a little 'set in my ways' in terms of brewing process. But having tried it, I realized it's not that tough, it is doable, and that I really like the results I got, alot. And if I keep getting these results, it's a safe bet it'll be my SOP.

Having said that, I want to be clear that I'm not selling any 'only way to brew' outlook. There are lots of ways to brew beer (Lord knows I've tried most) and that's why we're here - to share info and figure out the way we like to brew best.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Phil_M on December 06, 2016, 07:05:00 PM
I think it's a tool, just like other brewing techniques. I could see myself doing low oxygen mashes, then following my standard procedure to bottle or cask for an ale. Also, I still plan to decoct some lagers as well, I enjoy the process and it's fun to try and make a historical beer.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 06, 2016, 08:01:20 PM
I've never been able to rationalize why "doesn't apply on a homebrew scale" exists

when you get different results than what science predicts, it's an obvious conclusion
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 06, 2016, 08:02:46 PM

- Let's not forget that, as an example, there is published data indicating that the preference for a fresh vs a stale lager was 50/50 so low oxygen may not make "better" beer for everyone.

And this certainly is true, sadly. It's a matter of what you come to know as "fresh" beer, thinking it's the best there is, and developing a taste for that flavor quality.
But I suppose the proles only knew low grade chocolate and stale bread. I don't know why one wouldn't jump up and down when something good and fresh was presented to them.

I tried and tried to come up with a reply to this that wasn't insulting or condescending....
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Phil_M on December 06, 2016, 08:08:15 PM
I've never been able to rationalize why "doesn't apply on a homebrew scale" exists

when you get different results than what science predicts, it's an obvious conclusion

I think I stated that poorly. I agree, the "scale affect" exists. My questions is, why? Just about everything in brewing should scale down perfectly. Yeast, enzymes, and malts are easy. Hops aren't as straight forward, but are still pretty well understood. But we still get this big differences...and I'm wondering (hoping) if the whole HSA thing might be the answer. Bamforth and Fix certainly swore by (at?) HSA.

This is my personal thought process/puzzle, others may differ/not even care. I'm a techniciant/engineering student, I like getting what my science predicts.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: mabrungard on December 06, 2016, 08:29:33 PM
The Hamilton VisiTrace DO probes are reported to sense 0 to 2 ppm DO at temps up to 85C. That would suffice for mash use. I was lusting after them at last year's CBC but the $2k price tag was too much for me.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 06, 2016, 08:41:37 PM

- Let's not forget that, as an example, there is published data indicating that the preference for a fresh vs a stale lager was 50/50 so low oxygen may not make "better" beer for everyone.

And this certainly is true, sadly. It's a matter of what you come to know as "fresh" beer, thinking it's the best there is, and developing a taste for that flavor quality.
But I suppose the proles only knew low grade chocolate and stale bread. I don't know why one wouldn't jump up and down when something good and fresh was presented to them.

I tried and tried to come up with a reply to this that wasn't insulting or condescending....
It's the same thing of someone who's used to drinking Folgers or even 8 O'clock coffee and thinks that's the best, then tries a great Fair Trade quality roast and hates it, or at the very least, doesn't think it's any better. They wouldn't know quality if presented to them.

EDIT: part of post removed, because...it's just not worth keeping the argument going.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 06, 2016, 08:45:52 PM
It's the same thing of someone who's used to drinking Folgers or even 8 O'clock coffee and thinks that's the best, then tries a great Fair Trade quality roast and hates it, or at the very least, doesn't think it's any better. They wouldn't know quality if presented to them. But I guess that kind of makes all this arguing pointless, huh? Like I said earlier! We didn't need to go back down this rabbit hole, ugh. Moving on.

But you have no idea of the level of sophistication of those tasters, right?  In effect, you're saying "if they don't like what I like, then they're wrong".  You are overlooking the possibility that they knew exactly what what they were looking for taste wise, and in essence setting yourself up as superior to them.  An "Emperor's New Clothes" attitude.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 06, 2016, 08:47:00 PM
It's the same thing of someone who's used to drinking Folgers or even 8 O'clock coffee and thinks that's the best, then tries a great Fair Trade quality roast and hates it, or at the very least, doesn't think it's any better. They wouldn't know quality if presented to them. But I guess that kind of makes all this arguing pointless, huh? Like I said earlier! We didn't need to go back down this rabbit hole, ugh. Moving on.

But you have no idea of the level of sophistication of those tasters, right?  In effect, you're saying "if they don't like what I like, then they're wrong".  You are overlooking the possibility that they knew exactly what what they were looking for taste wise, and in essence setting yourself up as superior to them.  An "Emperor's New Clothes" attitude.
If they say Folgers is the creme de la creme, they're wrong. End of argument.

I'm just laughing at myself here and how silly this all is. It's just like 6 months ago, sigh...
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 06, 2016, 08:49:51 PM
The Hamilton VisiTrace DO probes are reported to sense 0 to 2 ppm DO at temps up to 85C. That would suffice for mash use. I was lusting after them at last year's CBC but the $2k price tag was too much for me.

Thanks Martin for taking the time to write.
I would love to see the validation tests this company has run.
I am a bit suspicious because many researchers have indicated that measuring DO in the mash is not directly possible, and none of the published data uses a DO meter.

In the Stability of Beer chapter of the Handbook of Brewing, 2012, August Gresser writes: It is known that oxygen at higher temperatures reacts with polyphenols, anthocyanes and tannoids. Brighter beers that are richer in polyphenols are more sensitive to oxygen in comparison with medium - colored beer and, especially, darker beers. For this reason, the brewer should carefully monitor the presence of oxygen with instruments during wort filtration and also during mashing, wort boiling or in general in the field of higher temperatures. Oxygen cannot be determined during the mashing process – one can take values from empirical procedures...

In Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse,  1999, Bamforth states:
An additional complication concerns the assessment of oxygen consumption at this stage in the process. Direct measurement of oxygen in mash is fraught with difficulty and most people have reverted to redox measurements (using redox probes or colorimetric techniques) to gain an indication of the extent of oxidative damage. The interpretation and relevance of such measurements is by no means straightforward.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 06, 2016, 09:02:33 PM
The crude colorimetric assessment is just looking at the color of standard wort vs low-O2 wort. One is dingy and/or darker while the other is lighter. Besides flavor, this was the most striking difference when I did the mini-mash experiment. They weren't even close and I wasn't gaming the system by over-stirring the non-O2 mash, either - the only difference was pre-boil and NaMeta.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 09:05:54 PM
The crude colorimetric assessment is just looking at the color of standard wort vs low-O2 wort. One is dingy and/or darker while the other is lighter. Besides flavor, this was the most striking difference when I did the mini-mash experiment. They weren't even close and I wasn't gaming the system by over-stirring the non-O2 mash, either - the only difference was pre-boil and NaMeta.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/what-does-oxidation-look-like/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/what-does-oxidation-look-like/)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 06, 2016, 09:37:57 PM
The Hamilton VisiTrace DO probes are reported to sense 0 to 2 ppm DO at temps up to 85C. That would suffice for mash use. I was lusting after them at last year's CBC but the $2k price tag was too much for me.

Thanks Martin for taking the time to write.
I would love to see the validation tests this company has run.
I am a bit suspicious because many researchers have indicated that measuring DO in the mash is not directly possible, and none of the published data uses a DO meter.

In the Stability of Beer chapter of the Handbook of Brewing, 2012, August Gresser writes: It is known that oxygen at higher temperatures reacts with polyphenols, anthocyanes and tannoids. Brighter beers that are richer in polyphenols are more sensitive to oxygen in comparison with medium - colored beer and, especially, darker beers. For this reason, the brewer should carefully monitor the presence of oxygen with instruments during wort filtration and also during mashing, wort boiling or in general in the field of higher temperatures. Oxygen cannot be determined during the mashing process – one can take values from empirical procedures...

In Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse,  1999, Bamforth states:
An additional complication concerns the assessment of oxygen consumption at this stage in the process. Direct measurement of oxygen in mash is fraught with difficulty and most people have reverted to redox measurements (using redox probes or colorimetric techniques) to gain an indication of the extent of oxidative damage. The interpretation and relevance of such measurements is by no means straightforward.
The Gresser quote is of interest. It fits some of my taste experiences in Germany.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 09:54:33 PM
The Hamilton VisiTrace DO probes are reported to sense 0 to 2 ppm DO at temps up to 85C. That would suffice for mash use. I was lusting after them at last year's CBC but the $2k price tag was too much for me.

Thanks Martin for taking the time to write.
I would love to see the validation tests this company has run.
I am a bit suspicious because many researchers have indicated that measuring DO in the mash is not directly possible, and none of the published data uses a DO meter.

In the Stability of Beer chapter of the Handbook of Brewing, 2012, August Gresser writes: It is known that oxygen at higher temperatures reacts with polyphenols, anthocyanes and tannoids. Brighter beers that are richer in polyphenols are more sensitive to oxygen in comparison with medium - colored beer and, especially, darker beers. For this reason, the brewer should carefully monitor the presence of oxygen with instruments during wort filtration and also during mashing, wort boiling or in general in the field of higher temperatures. Oxygen cannot be determined during the mashing process – one can take values from empirical procedures...

In Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse,  1999, Bamforth states:
An additional complication concerns the assessment of oxygen consumption at this stage in the process. Direct measurement of oxygen in mash is fraught with difficulty and most people have reverted to redox measurements (using redox probes or colorimetric techniques) to gain an indication of the extent of oxidative damage. The interpretation and relevance of such measurements is by no means straightforward.
The Gresser quote is of interest. It fits some of my taste experiences in Germany.

Kunze touches on it as well( chapter 2 I think, malt section). The dark malts and beers having more oxygen reduction potential.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 06, 2016, 10:12:45 PM
The Hamilton VisiTrace DO probes are reported to sense 0 to 2 ppm DO at temps up to 85C. That would suffice for mash use. I was lusting after them at last year's CBC but the $2k price tag was too much for me.

Thanks Martin for taking the time to write.
I would love to see the validation tests this company has run.
I am a bit suspicious because many researchers have indicated that measuring DO in the mash is not directly possible, and none of the published data uses a DO meter.

In the Stability of Beer chapter of the Handbook of Brewing, 2012, August Gresser writes: It is known that oxygen at higher temperatures reacts with polyphenols, anthocyanes and tannoids. Brighter beers that are richer in polyphenols are more sensitive to oxygen in comparison with medium - colored beer and, especially, darker beers. For this reason, the brewer should carefully monitor the presence of oxygen with instruments during wort filtration and also during mashing, wort boiling or in general in the field of higher temperatures. Oxygen cannot be determined during the mashing process – one can take values from empirical procedures...

In Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse,  1999, Bamforth states:
An additional complication concerns the assessment of oxygen consumption at this stage in the process. Direct measurement of oxygen in mash is fraught with difficulty and most people have reverted to redox measurements (using redox probes or colorimetric techniques) to gain an indication of the extent of oxidative damage. The interpretation and relevance of such measurements is by no means straightforward.
The Gresser quote is of interest. It fits some of my taste experiences in Germany.

Kunze touches on it as well( chapter 2 I think, malt section). The dark malts and beers having more oxygen reduction potential.
Do hops cover up the oxidized malt flavor? The Franconian Helles that I have had are more hoppy than around Munich. Some will not have any trace of oxidized flavors others you get something in the first sip, then you taste the flavor hops on the second sip. Third sip you say, what was that flavor?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 10:16:54 PM
The Hamilton VisiTrace DO probes are reported to sense 0 to 2 ppm DO at temps up to 85C. That would suffice for mash use. I was lusting after them at last year's CBC but the $2k price tag was too much for me.

Thanks Martin for taking the time to write.
I would love to see the validation tests this company has run.
I am a bit suspicious because many researchers have indicated that measuring DO in the mash is not directly possible, and none of the published data uses a DO meter.

In the Stability of Beer chapter of the Handbook of Brewing, 2012, August Gresser writes: It is known that oxygen at higher temperatures reacts with polyphenols, anthocyanes and tannoids. Brighter beers that are richer in polyphenols are more sensitive to oxygen in comparison with medium - colored beer and, especially, darker beers. For this reason, the brewer should carefully monitor the presence of oxygen with instruments during wort filtration and also during mashing, wort boiling or in general in the field of higher temperatures. Oxygen cannot be determined during the mashing process – one can take values from empirical procedures...

In Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse,  1999, Bamforth states:
An additional complication concerns the assessment of oxygen consumption at this stage in the process. Direct measurement of oxygen in mash is fraught with difficulty and most people have reverted to redox measurements (using redox probes or colorimetric techniques) to gain an indication of the extent of oxidative damage. The interpretation and relevance of such measurements is by no means straightforward.
The Gresser quote is of interest. It fits some of my taste experiences in Germany.

Kunze touches on it as well( chapter 2 I think, malt section). The dark malts and beers having more oxygen reduction potential.
Do hops cover up the oxidized malt flavor? The Franconian Helles that I have had are more hoppy than around Munich. Some will not have any trace of oxidized flavors others you get something in the first sip, then you taste the flavor hops on the second sip. Third sip you say, what was that flavor?
I suppose they could depending how late the hops were added, and how much flavor they have in the beer. What are the oxidized flavors you are seeing? Honey?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: mabrungard on December 06, 2016, 10:36:17 PM

I would love to see the validation tests this company has run.
I am a bit suspicious because many researchers have indicated that measuring DO in the mash is not directly possible, and none of the published data uses a DO meter.

I wouldn't dismiss the utility of the instrument out of hand. While I can concede that it might not be quantitatively accurate at those temps, I expect that it would still be useful and telling in a qualitative or relative way. Trials run with and without DO reduction measures could probably be assessed to some degree. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 06, 2016, 10:54:47 PM
Quote from: mabrungard link=topic=27965.msg368996#msg368996

I expect that it would still be useful and telling in a qualitative or relative way. Trials run with and without DO reduction measures could probably be assessed to some degree. 


That was my thought, too.


Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 11:02:17 PM
Quote from: mabrungard link=topic=27965.msg368996#msg368996

I expect that it would still be useful and telling in a qualitative or relative way. Trials run with and without DO reduction measures could probably be assessed to some degree. 


That was my thought, too.



As a person with a DO meter I can certainly tell you that mashes with low oxygen measures and those without, do not register even close to the same readings. Now, how accurate is it in low oxygen worts I can't speak to that. But going from 4ppm normal to .2-.3 low oxygen is enough of a difference for myself.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on December 06, 2016, 11:04:54 PM
Quote from: mabrungard link=topic=27965.msg368996#msg368996

I expect that it would still be useful and telling in a qualitative or relative way. Trials run with and without DO reduction measures could probably be assessed to some degree. 


That was my thought, too.
Yahbut, at $2K for the instrument, I'll let you folks do the trial runs.  ;D
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 06, 2016, 11:09:01 PM
Quote from: mabrungard link=topic=27965.msg368996#msg368996

I expect that it would still be useful and telling in a qualitative or relative way. Trials run with and without DO reduction measures could probably be assessed to some degree. 


That was my thought, too.



As a person with a DO meter I can certainly tell you that mashes with low oxygen measures and those without, do not register even close to the same readings. Now, how accurate is it in low oxygen worts I can't speak to that. But going from 4ppm normal to .2-.3 low oxygen is enough of a difference for myself.


Yeah that was what I was getting at, ie, something to use as a 'with lodo measures vs without' measurement. Looks like a pretty significant difference in measurements to me.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 06, 2016, 11:13:55 PM
For me it was pretty easy to equate numbers to results. For instance as I mentioned above:

Standard mash 4-5ppm
Preboil only 2-3ppm
Preboil+SMB .2-.3ppm

Flavor loss happened about 1ppm.

So while I will concede they may not be actual DO wort values, they were able to easily correlate for me and then others with the same meters saw the same results as well. That was suffice for me.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 06, 2016, 11:46:12 PM


- Sulfites may not be the solution for ales. My personal observations are that even at 30ppm SMB in the mash, they can be perceived in the final beer as either sulfite or sulfide flavors. More data is need, but I stopped using them for ales (except for weissbier yeast). I think the effect is yeast dependent and not temperature dependent because I did not notice it either a weissbier or a dampfbier, but again more data is needed.


Has anyone else noticed this excess flavor when using SMB in conjunction with ale yeasts and their subsequent fermentations?

If so, has anyone tried simply just a pre-boil and spunding to counteract oxygen ingress?  It sounds like the low SMB addition still really seems to be the way to negate additional ppm of oxygen in the mash.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebrews on December 06, 2016, 11:56:24 PM
I have done 2 ales using a LODO mashing regiment.  Both batches were fermented with english ale yeast (1968 for one, Lallemand London ESB for the other) and the first had a definite bite to it that I had not experienced before.  The second batch was a Bitter that I make a lot, and this one was very sulfury (eggs and farty), which I have never experienced with this beer before. 

Granted, the data isn't very good since the second one was using a new yeast and the first was using a new hop.  Really, I should make that bitter again and use 1968 to ferment it since I have a lot of experience with that recipe.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 06, 2016, 11:58:23 PM
  The second batch was a Bitter that I make a lot, and this one was very sulfury (eggs and farty), which I have never experienced with this beer before. 

I am assuming this was from a high SMB addition?  These were not spunded either, correct?

Did the sulfur ever dissipate?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebrews on December 07, 2016, 12:05:04 AM
As a separate question, do you have any gauge for when the extraction of these delicate flavor compounds occurs?  For example, if I'm doing a mash where I batch sparge, am I getting most of those compounds out in the first runnings and the subsequent runnings are not pulling those (and so may not require as tight a control of the O2 pickup)?

In such a case, if I had the first running in the kettle and brought them up to a boil (or just below) to keep O2 from diffusing into the liquid and then ran the second runnings out slowly at a rate such that the heater could keep up and drive any dissolved gasses out of solution upon contact with the main liquid mass?

I'm just trying to think of ways that people can more effectively use the system they currently have (ok, the system I currently have) to get the best results.  My system definitely leans toward batch sparging, though I have fly sparged before.  When I fly sparge though, I have used a Blichmann autosparge which drips and gurgles and crap all the time.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebrews on December 07, 2016, 12:07:23 AM
  The second batch was a Bitter that I make a lot, and this one was very sulfury (eggs and farty), which I have never experienced with this beer before. 

I am assuming this was from a high SMB addition?  These were not spunded either, correct?

Did the sulfur ever dissipate?

The second one was spunded, the first one was not.  The sulfur has gone down notably from before, but it is still offensive.  I might just force carb it to a high level and then blow off the carbonation to scrub that sulfur out of it.  The beer that lurks under the sulfur character definitely has a different taste than the standard version of the thing.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 07, 2016, 12:09:17 AM
The lodo APA with 1056 I just did used 50ppm SMB, no spunding. There was no sulfur, no sulfite bite. I found overall quality to be quite good, with the 7% C40 and 20% MO surprisingly vibrant and more defined. O think the real trick is in dialing in the amounts for your system as you tighten up the process. $0.02. .
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebrews on December 07, 2016, 12:14:46 AM
I'm sure, I have only tried 3 batches using that method and none of them were the same thing.  I think what I need to do is make the same beer a few times in a row with it to get it dialed in.  I have had a lot of headaches just in the "how do I use my setup to accomplish the task" problems, since my regular method is generally incompatible with the low do mashing. 

For example, I haven't gotten the infusion temperature method quite right and my temps have been off a few degrees.  Since you can't stir up the mash, I'm not sure how one would go about infusing hot/cold water (or mineral adjustments) and get them to be evenly distributed in the mash.  Consequently, I haven't been adjusting things the way I usually do. (I'm doing infusion in a cooler)

For reference, I was using 50ppm.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 07, 2016, 12:33:44 AM
The Hamilton VisiTrace DO probes are reported to sense 0 to 2 ppm DO at temps up to 85C. That would suffice for mash use. I was lusting after them at last year's CBC but the $2k price tag was too much for me.

Thanks Martin for taking the time to write.
I would love to see the validation tests this company has run.
I am a bit suspicious because many researchers have indicated that measuring DO in the mash is not directly possible, and none of the published data uses a DO meter.

In the Stability of Beer chapter of the Handbook of Brewing, 2012, August Gresser writes: It is known that oxygen at higher temperatures reacts with polyphenols, anthocyanes and tannoids. Brighter beers that are richer in polyphenols are more sensitive to oxygen in comparison with medium - colored beer and, especially, darker beers. For this reason, the brewer should carefully monitor the presence of oxygen with instruments during wort filtration and also during mashing, wort boiling or in general in the field of higher temperatures. Oxygen cannot be determined during the mashing process – one can take values from empirical procedures...

In Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse,  1999, Bamforth states:
An additional complication concerns the assessment of oxygen consumption at this stage in the process. Direct measurement of oxygen in mash is fraught with difficulty and most people have reverted to redox measurements (using redox probes or colorimetric techniques) to gain an indication of the extent of oxidative damage. The interpretation and relevance of such measurements is by no means straightforward.
The Gresser quote is of interest. It fits some of my taste experiences in Germany.

Kunze touches on it as well( chapter 2 I think, malt section). The dark malts and beers having more oxygen reduction potential.
Do hops cover up the oxidized malt flavor? The Franconian Helles that I have had are more hoppy than around Munich. Some will not have any trace of oxidized flavors others you get something in the first sip, then you taste the flavor hops on the second sip. Third sip you say, what was that flavor?
I suppose they could depending how late the hops were added, and how much flavor they have in the beer. What are the oxidized flavors you are seeing? Honey?
Oxidized is my best description, maybe a little beyond paper, not cardboard. Not clean and sweet.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 07, 2016, 02:09:02 AM
Ahh ok. So starting the phases.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 07, 2016, 02:18:05 AM
Looks like I missed quite a few posts.  So see if I can recap and shed some light.
Too much sulfur in ales.  Yea it's a touchy area and all yeast and their sulfite tolerance will be different. For instance I use us05 and my dose of 30ppm does not yield me any sulfur or off flavors. There is an answer though and that answer is to augment SMB with ascorbic. I would try and keep your SMB dose at or around     30ppm and maybe try 20ppm ascorbic. I tried not to talk much about this on purpose cause I don't think we are quite there yet as a group. Again though this is going to be system and yeast dependent. I hate to throw another variable into the mix.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 07, 2016, 12:51:55 PM
Looks like I missed quite a few posts.  So see if I can recap and shed some light.
Too much sulfur in ales.  Yea it's a touchy area and all yeast and their sulfite tolerance will be different. For instance I use us05 and my dose of 30ppm does not yield me any sulfur or off flavors. There is an answer though and that answer is to augment SMB with ascorbic. I would try and keep your SMB dose at or around     30ppm and maybe try 20ppm ascorbic. I tried not to talk much about this on purpose cause I don't think we are quite there yet as a group. Again though this is going to be system and yeast dependent. I hate to throw another variable into the mix.


So the ascorbic in the presence of SMB is no longer a potential super-oxidizer, I assume?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on December 07, 2016, 01:12:08 PM
Cf Antioxin sbt? https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=28249.msg369032#msg369032
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 07, 2016, 01:53:46 PM
Looks like I missed quite a few posts.  So see if I can recap and shed some light.
Too much sulfur in ales.  Yea it's a touchy area and all yeast and their sulfite tolerance will be different. For instance I use us05 and my dose of 30ppm does not yield me any sulfur or off flavors. There is an answer though and that answer is to augment SMB with ascorbic. I would try and keep your SMB dose at or around     30ppm and maybe try 20ppm ascorbic. I tried not to talk much about this on purpose cause I don't think we are quite there yet as a group. Again though this is going to be system and yeast dependent. I hate to throw another variable into the mix.


So the ascorbic in the presence of SMB is no longer a potential super-oxidizer, I assume?

Yea the jist of it is, Meta is going to be your fast reagent, he is going to be out on the hunt for o2, and will break it down almost immediately, splashing and dough in. AA is going to be the bouncer at the door saying, "sorry you can't come in here" to surface and slow diffusions. AA is not going to be able to keep up with a fast intrusion.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 07, 2016, 01:57:09 PM
Looks like I missed quite a few posts.  So see if I can recap and shed some light.
Too much sulfur in ales.  Yea it's a touchy area and all yeast and their sulfite tolerance will be different. For instance I use us05 and my dose of 30ppm does not yield me any sulfur or off flavors. There is an answer though and that answer is to augment SMB with ascorbic. I would try and keep your SMB dose at or around     30ppm and maybe try 20ppm ascorbic. I tried not to talk much about this on purpose cause I don't think we are quite there yet as a group. Again though this is going to be system and yeast dependent. I hate to throw another variable into the mix.


So the ascorbic in the presence of SMB is no longer a potential super-oxidizer, I assume?

Yea the jist of it is, Meta is going to be your fast reagent, he is going to be out on the hunt for o2, and will break it down almost immediately, splashing and dough in. AA is going to be the bouncer at the door saying, "sorry you can't come in here" to surface and slow diffusions. AA is not going to be able to keep up with a fast intrusion.


Cool, thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 07, 2016, 01:59:42 PM
Looks like I missed quite a few posts.  So see if I can recap and shed some light.
Too much sulfur in ales.  Yea it's a touchy area and all yeast and their sulfite tolerance will be different. For instance I use us05 and my dose of 30ppm does not yield me any sulfur or off flavors. There is an answer though and that answer is to augment SMB with ascorbic. I would try and keep your SMB dose at or around     30ppm and maybe try 20ppm ascorbic. I tried not to talk much about this on purpose cause I don't think we are quite there yet as a group. Again though this is going to be system and yeast dependent. I hate to throw another variable into the mix.


So the ascorbic in the presence of SMB is no longer a potential super-oxidizer, I assume?

Yea the jist of it is, Meta is going to be your fast reagent, he is going to be out on the hunt for o2, and will break it down almost immediately, splashing and dough in. AA is going to be the bouncer at the door saying, "sorry you can't come in here" to surface and slow diffusions. AA is not going to be able to keep up with a fast intrusion.


Cool, thanks for the info.

I guess I missed the important part, when AA is greeted with larger amounts of 02, thats when it will superoxidize. Meta for large and quick, and to knock out the bulk, AA for the low and slow.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 07, 2016, 06:04:46 PM
I appreciate that Bryan (@Beerery) is trying to simplify the discussion, but in doing so we may be simplifying too much and making too many assumptions.

START OF CHEMISTRY BRIEF
Here some statements that the group should feel free to correct/ improve
- Oxidation-reduction reactions are within the realm of what some have called RedOx chemistry. Here are
some definitions:
* oxidation is loss of e−
* reduction is gain of e−
* oxidizing agent gains e− during reaction and is therefore reduced during reaction
* reducing agent loses e− during reaction and is therefore oxidized during reaction
* oxidized form form of molecule relatively lacking an e−
* reduced form form of the molecule relatively having an additional e−
A molecule with a higher negative redox potential than another molecule will tend to lose electrons (i.e. to be oxidized by reducing another molecule, eg. a free radical) more than a molecule with a lower negative redox potential; and a molecule with a higher positive redox potential will tend to gain electrons (i.e. to be reduced by oxidizing another molecule).
These reactions are of course dependent on the concentration of the reacting molecules, concentration of other molecules that can reduce/oxidize, the pH of the solution, and the temperature of the solution
END OF CHEMISTRY BRIEF

We do not know whether the redox potential of SMB in mash conditions is higher than that of ascorbic acid (it would be my working hypothesis that SMB is a better antioxidant but again, there is no data in our experimental conditions). Remember that SMB will be mostly in the sulfite form under mash conditions, so we cannot use data collected when it was mostly in the sulfite form (at higher pH).
I also agree it is a fair working hypothesis that dehydroascorbic acid (oxidized ascorbic acid) is more prone to regain the lost electron by oxidizing another molecule vs oxidized bisulfite; but again, this is not proven either. It may even be different for L- vs D-ascorbic acid.
If you add gallotanins (Brewtan) to the equation, it will get even more complicated

Bottom line
- it is not proven that mole to mole, SMB is better than ascorbic acid in mash conditions (or Brewtan)
(my working hypothesis is that SMB is better but I do not have any evidence to prove it)
- these are not simple experiments
- if I were to suggest a path, it would be to do rigorous taste tests of the final beer (it is too complicated otherwise)

- the message for homebrewers is to not put all their chips on SMB (yet)



Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 07, 2016, 06:16:08 PM
I appreciate that Bryan (@Beerery) is trying to simplify the discussion, but in doing so we may be simplifying too much and making too many assumptions.

START OF CHEMISTRY BRIEF
Here some statements that the group should feel free to correct/ improve
- Oxidation-reduction reactions are within the realm of what some have called RedOx chemistry. Here are
some definitions:
* oxidation is loss of e−
* reduction is gain of e−
* oxidizing agent gains e− during reaction and is therefore reduced during reaction
* reducing agent loses e− during reaction and is therefore oxidized during reaction
* oxidized form form of molecule relatively lacking an e−
* reduced form form of the molecule relatively having an additional e−
A molecule with a higher negative redox potential than another molecule will tend to lose electrons (i.e. to be oxidized by reducing another molecule, eg. a free radical) more than a molecule with a lower negative redox potential; and a molecule with a higher positive redox potential will tend to gain electrons (i.e. to be reduced by oxidizing another molecule).
These reactions are of course dependent on the concentration of the reacting molecules, concentration of other molecules that can reduce/oxidize, the pH of the solution, and the temperature of the solution
END OF CHEMISTRY BRIEF

We do not know whether the redox potential of SMB in mash conditions is higher than that of ascorbic acid (it would be my working hypothesis that SMB is a better antioxidant but again, there is no data in our experimental conditions). Remember that SMB will be mostly in the sulfite form under mash conditions, so we cannot use data collected when it was mostly in the sulfite form (at higher pH).
I also agree it is a fair working hypothesis that dehydroascorbic acid (oxidized ascorbic acid) is more prone to regain the lost electron by oxidizing another molecule vs oxidized bisulfite; but again, this is not proven either. It may even be different for L- vs D-ascorbic acid.
If you add gallotanins (Brewtan) to the equation, it will get even more complicated

Bottom line
- it is not proven that mole to mole, SMB is better than ascorbic acid in mash conditions (or Brewtan)
(my working hypothesis is that SMB is better but I do not have any evidence to prove it)
- these are not simple experiments
- if I were to suggest a path, it would be to do rigorous taste tests of the final beer (it is too complicated otherwise)

- the message for homebrewers is to not put all their chips on SMB (yet)

Oh come on, was it my bouncer at the door that was too broad!?!?  ;D ;D

As always thanks for the reply. I should have a permanent preface, that these are my findings.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on December 07, 2016, 06:32:06 PM
What would one expect the DO of a glass of German pils to be?
Just got a meter and it read around .5 ppm on a beer I made with Brewtan.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 07, 2016, 06:40:26 PM
I appreciate that Bryan (@Beerery) is trying to simplify the discussion, but in doing so we may be simplifying too much and making too many assumptions.

START OF CHEMISTRY BRIEF
Here some statements that the group should feel free to correct/ improve
- Oxidation-reduction reactions are within the realm of what some have called RedOx chemistry. Here are
some definitions:
* oxidation is loss of e−
* reduction is gain of e−
* oxidizing agent gains e− during reaction and is therefore reduced during reaction
* reducing agent loses e− during reaction and is therefore oxidized during reaction
* oxidized form form of molecule relatively lacking an e−
* reduced form form of the molecule relatively having an additional e−
A molecule with a higher negative redox potential than another molecule will tend to lose electrons (i.e. to be oxidized by reducing another molecule, eg. a free radical) more than a molecule with a lower negative redox potential; and a molecule with a higher positive redox potential will tend to gain electrons (i.e. to be reduced by oxidizing another molecule).
These reactions are of course dependent on the concentration of the reacting molecules, concentration of other molecules that can reduce/oxidize, the pH of the solution, and the temperature of the solution
END OF CHEMISTRY BRIEF

We do not know whether the redox potential of SMB in mash conditions is higher than that of ascorbic acid (it would be my working hypothesis that SMB is a better antioxidant but again, there is no data in our experimental conditions). Remember that SMB will be mostly in the sulfite form under mash conditions, so we cannot use data collected when it was mostly in the sulfite form (at higher pH).
I also agree it is a fair working hypothesis that dehydroascorbic acid (oxidized ascorbic acid) is more prone to regain the lost electron by oxidizing another molecule vs oxidized bisulfite; but again, this is not proven either. It may even be different for L- vs D-ascorbic acid.
If you add gallotanins (Brewtan) to the equation, it will get even more complicated

Bottom line
- it is not proven that mole to mole, SMB is better than ascorbic acid in mash conditions (or Brewtan)
(my working hypothesis is that SMB is better but I do not have any evidence to prove it)
- these are not simple experiments
- if I were to suggest a path, it would be to do rigorous taste tests of the final beer (it is too complicated otherwise)

- the message for homebrewers is to not put all their chips on SMB (yet)

Oh come on, was it my bouncer at the door that was too broad!?!?  ;D ;D

As always thanks for the reply. I should have a permanent preface, that these are my findings.

Thanks Bryan :-)
I think it is important people understand the difference between observations and results from controlled experiments.
There is so much we need to learn.
All the best,
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 07, 2016, 07:02:17 PM
What would one expect the DO of a glass of German pils to be?
Just got a meter and it read around .5 ppm on a beer I made with Brewtan.


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Low, sub .15 if its not oxidized. Your .5 is leaving flavor town fast, in about 2 weeks you will start to see signs of aging.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 07, 2016, 09:52:49 PM

I would love to see the validation tests this company has run.
I am a bit suspicious because many researchers have indicated that measuring DO in the mash is not directly possible, and none of the published data uses a DO meter.

I wouldn't dismiss the utility of the instrument out of hand. While I can concede that it might not be quantitatively accurate at those temps, I expect that it would still be useful and telling in a qualitative or relative way. Trials run with and without DO reduction measures could probably be assessed to some degree.
I agree with you given these caveats  :)
Warm regards
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 07, 2016, 10:53:40 PM
What would one expect the DO of a glass of German pils to be?
Just got a meter and it read around .5 ppm on a beer I made with Brewtan.


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Was this batch performed with the lodo method or just your normal process?  Just curious.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on December 08, 2016, 02:38:35 AM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161208/669e4febb74d1330408cde02b1ea6868.jpg)

This was made with my usual method. One decoction but with Brewtan B. They all clear to brilliant but this one is amazing. All the writing is on the back side of the glass.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on December 08, 2016, 02:39:39 AM
Hope this picture gives it justice.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 08, 2016, 02:42:29 AM
Fermented to full attenuation, then force carbed?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on December 08, 2016, 02:49:09 AM
Yes. WY2124 grown from a slant


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 08, 2016, 02:03:14 PM
Yes. WY2124 grown from a slant


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That jives with what I saw as well, using those methods.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: juggabrew303 on December 09, 2016, 04:39:08 AM
Is this an all or nothing deal, or could I do a couple steps to show a difference? For example, if I just decide to use SS chiller, SMB and not splash water will this alone improve my beer? Or do I need to follow LODO steps all the way through to packaging? 


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 09, 2016, 10:52:50 AM
Is this an all or nothing deal, or could I do a couple steps to show a difference? For example, if I just decide to use SS chiller, SMB and not splash water will this alone improve my beer? Or do I need to follow LODO steps all the way through to packaging? 


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It will improve incrementally for sure. Ultimately though if not following the packaging steps the malt quality will fade quite quickly in the serving vessel.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: juggabrew303 on December 09, 2016, 02:50:35 PM
Is this an all or nothing deal, or could I do a couple steps to show a difference? For example, if I just decide to use SS chiller, SMB and not splash water will this alone improve my beer? Or do I need to follow LODO steps all the way through to packaging? 


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It will improve incrementally for sure. Ultimately though if not following the packaging steps the malt quality will fade quite quickly in the serving vessel.
That's good news! Just looking for the easiest places to start, Ive already been using SMB for chloramine removal and have started slowly draining my strike and sparge water into mash.   I just replaced my copper chiller with a SS one from NYbrewsupply ($58 on Amazon if your looking).  Also, looking into getting more kegs for transfers. 

I thought I've seen some post on aluminum foil as a mash cap but I can't remember if this would be sufficient? I use a 10g round cooler. 




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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 09, 2016, 02:52:27 PM
Is this an all or nothing deal, or could I do a couple steps to show a difference? For example, if I just decide to use SS chiller, SMB and not splash water will this alone improve my beer? Or do I need to follow LODO steps all the way through to packaging? 


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It will improve incrementally for sure. Ultimately though if not following the packaging steps the malt quality will fade quite quickly in the serving vessel.
That's good news! Just looking for the easiest places to start, Ive already been using SMB for chloramine removal and have started slowly draining my strike and sparge water into mash.   I just replaced my copper chiller with a SS one from NYbrewsupply ($58 on Amazon if your looking).  Also, looking into getting more kegs for transfers. 

I thought I've seen some post on aluminum foil as a mash cap but I can't remember if this would be sufficient? I use a 10g round cooler. 




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Yup that all sounds good. Foil can be used as well. Good luck!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 09, 2016, 07:38:16 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 09, 2016, 08:40:42 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear. The last step of packaging is a nightmare. I know folks who brew low oxygen do fill bottles and compete, and I am surre the beer is still overall good, but nothing like it is on tap. ( which pretty much holds true anywhere)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on December 09, 2016, 10:11:28 PM
Would bottle-carbing be a better idea?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 09, 2016, 10:45:24 PM
Would bottle-carbing be a better idea?

In a perfect world bottle spunding. But it will be tricky if you spund your main batch, cause it will already be at gravity and adding sugar definitely has a flavor influence(not for the better).

I actually have a CPBF built that uses a vacuum pump, but I have yet to test it. In Kunze you will see the proper bottle purging sequence. I think thats really the only answer if you want to preserve the malt flavor as it is in the keg.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: macbrews on December 09, 2016, 10:55:54 PM
So when your half empty, spunded keg has lost carbonation to all the beer that has been poured, how do you push out the remaining beer or just maintain the carbonation in the keg after the pressure has dissipated or equilibrated in the head space?


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 09, 2016, 11:02:19 PM
So when your half empty, spunded keg has lost carbonation to all the beer that has been poured, how do you push out the remaining beer or just maintain the carbonation in the keg after the pressure has dissipated or equilibrated in the head space?


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the only sensible thing to do would be to build an airtight room and fill it with an inert gas and only serve or consume your beer in that room. You would need some sort of self contained breathing apparatus you and all your drinking buddies would have to wear to avoid asphyxiating while you drink. You lose precious malt aroma from tap to glass since our atmosphere contains so much oxygen.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 09, 2016, 11:10:16 PM
So when your half empty, spunded keg has lost carbonation to all the beer that has been poured, how do you push out the remaining beer or just maintain the carbonation in the keg after the pressure has dissipated or equilibrated in the head space?


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Spund and push with normal co2.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 09, 2016, 11:12:19 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 09, 2016, 11:26:45 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 09, 2016, 11:49:11 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


Just wanna be sure I'm clear on the concept - the excess sulfur comes from using more SMB than is justified for the 'airtightness' of your system, or from excessive contact with air, or both? Obviously want to avoid the excess.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 09, 2016, 11:57:44 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


Just wanna be sure I'm clear on the concept - the excess sulfur comes from using more SMB than is justified for the 'airtightness' of your system, or from excessive contact with air, or both? Obviously want to avoid the excess.

At the risk of over simplifying it (ducks and looks for Lupulus  8) ). I think its actually a few processes. IF its an ale yeast they don't have a great tolerance for dealing with the SO2(sulfur dioxide) that the sulfite consumption(oxygen) has caused(again just my theory). If its a lager yeast they have a better tolerance, but none the less a proper dose per the system is needed.
Now I was speaking about using a proper dose of SMB, doing the colder ferment with a sulfury German lager strain and making yeast derived sulfites. Upon the filling of the bottle/growler/ anything, the oxygen reacted and created SO2 from the yeast sulfites.
But you are correct when it could be one, the other or both.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 10, 2016, 12:16:04 AM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


Just wanna be sure I'm clear on the concept - the excess sulfur comes from using more SMB than is justified for the 'airtightness' of your system, or from excessive contact with air, or both? Obviously want to avoid the excess.

At the risk of over simplifying it (ducks and looks for Lupulus  8) ). I think its actually a few processes. IF its an ale yeast they don't have a great tolerance for dealing with the SO2(sulfur dioxide) that the sulfite consumption(oxygen) has caused(again just my theory). If its a lager yeast they have a better tolerance, but none the less a proper dose per the system is needed.
Now I was speaking about using a proper dose of SMB, doing the colder ferment with a sulfury German lager strain and making yeast derived sulfites. Upon the filling of the bottle/growler/ anything, the oxygen reacted and created SO2 from the yeast sulfites.
But you are correct when it could be one, the other or both.


Ok cool. Any strains seem more likely to throw sulfur on bottle filling? Silly question - I'm assuming true beer gun (not poor man's cobra with racking cane) and bottles purged thoroughly? I remember you posting the DO levels for beer guns BTW. Just curious.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: coolman26 on December 10, 2016, 01:20:03 AM
Cobra and racking cane is good for that night. I'm going to make a bottling station for purge and fill. More like counter top I should say. This low 02 is making my head spin. Totally get it, but I was so proud of my copper work. :(


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 10, 2016, 01:58:23 AM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


Just wanna be sure I'm clear on the concept - the excess sulfur comes from using more SMB than is justified for the 'airtightness' of your system, or from excessive contact with air, or both? Obviously want to avoid the excess.

At the risk of over simplifying it (ducks and looks for Lupulus  8) ). I think its actually a few processes. IF its an ale yeast they don't have a great tolerance for dealing with the SO2(sulfur dioxide) that the sulfite consumption(oxygen) has caused(again just my theory). If its a lager yeast they have a better tolerance, but none the less a proper dose per the system is needed.
Now I was speaking about using a proper dose of SMB, doing the colder ferment with a sulfury German lager strain and making yeast derived sulfites. Upon the filling of the bottle/growler/ anything, the oxygen reacted and created SO2 from the yeast sulfites.
But you are correct when it could be one, the other or both.


Ok cool. Any strains seem more likely to throw sulfur on bottle filling? Silly question - I'm assuming true beer gun (not poor man's cobra with racking cane) and bottles purged thoroughly? I remember you posting the DO levels for beer guns BTW. Just curious.

I only use 2 strains regularly  now a days so I don't have a full list. The stains I use are pretty good with it.
Blichmann beer gun and your standard cpbf were tested.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 10, 2016, 01:59:56 AM
Cobra and racking cane is good for that night. I'm going to make a bottling station for purge and fill. More like counter top I should say. This low 02 is making my head spin. Totally get it, but I was so proud of my copper work. :(


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I hear you man. I built a super sophisticated automated decoction rig that I used twice before I started down this path.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 10, 2016, 02:13:13 AM
I only use 2 strains regularly  now a days so I don't have a full list. The stains I use are pretty good with it.
Blichmann beer gun and your standard cpbf were tested.


I thought as much - thanks.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: coolman26 on December 10, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
I remember when I thought purging bottles and kegs was BS. You have to do your own testing to get it. I bottled some Saison last year. One sixer purged, and one not. The one not is horrendous. The difference is truly amazing. O2 in that stage of the game is a killer.  Guess I'm going to improve equipment one change at a time. First up is recirculation/sparge return. Built on the premise that HSA was a myth. 


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 11, 2016, 04:42:20 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


Just wanna be sure I'm clear on the concept - the excess sulfur comes from using more SMB than is justified for the 'airtightness' of your system, or from excessive contact with air, or both? Obviously want to avoid the excess.

At the risk of over simplifying it (ducks and looks for Lupulus  8) ). I think its actually a few processes. IF its an ale yeast they don't have a great tolerance for dealing with the SO2(sulfur dioxide) that the sulfite consumption(oxygen) has caused(again just my theory). If its a lager yeast they have a better tolerance, but none the less a proper dose per the system is needed.
Now I was speaking about using a proper dose of SMB, doing the colder ferment with a sulfury German lager strain and making yeast derived sulfites. Upon the filling of the bottle/growler/ anything, the oxygen reacted and created SO2 from the yeast sulfites.
But you are correct when it could be one, the other or both.


 I remember you posting the DO levels for beer guns BTW. Just curious.

Wait a minute, where and when was this?  How did I miss that one?  Any help?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 12, 2016, 06:29:59 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


Just wanna be sure I'm clear on the concept - the excess sulfur comes from using more SMB than is justified for the 'airtightness' of your system, or from excessive contact with air, or both? Obviously want to avoid the excess.

At the risk of over simplifying it (ducks and looks for Lupulus  8) ). I think its actually a few processes. IF its an ale yeast they don't have a great tolerance for dealing with the SO2(sulfur dioxide) that the sulfite consumption(oxygen) has caused(again just my theory). If its a lager yeast they have a better tolerance, but none the less a proper dose per the system is needed.
Now I was speaking about using a proper dose of SMB, doing the colder ferment with a sulfury German lager strain and making yeast derived sulfites. Upon the filling of the bottle/growler/ anything, the oxygen reacted and created SO2 from the yeast sulfites.
But you are correct when it could be one, the other or both.
Can't believe @Beerery is ducking for me  :)  The chemistry of these processes is complicated, even in systems less complicated than beer. One small comment on SO2 and sulfites: SO2 (sulfur dioxide) and sulfites are the same thing; at beer pH the predominant form of sulfites is the bisulfite ion HSO3-; as pH gets acidic, more of the bisulfite becomes SO2, as pH gets basic, more of the bisulfite becomes sulfite.
Hence, sulfite oxidation does not lead to SO2. It may lead to sulfate (eg oxidation of bisulfite via peroxide) or to other sulfur compounds.
@Beerery is awesome, but he cannot answer every question (yet); we need to help him gather more data.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 14, 2016, 02:24:24 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


Just wanna be sure I'm clear on the concept - the excess sulfur comes from using more SMB than is justified for the 'airtightness' of your system, or from excessive contact with air, or both? Obviously want to avoid the excess.

At the risk of over simplifying it (ducks and looks for Lupulus  8) ). I think its actually a few processes. IF its an ale yeast they don't have a great tolerance for dealing with the SO2(sulfur dioxide) that the sulfite consumption(oxygen) has caused(again just my theory). If its a lager yeast they have a better tolerance, but none the less a proper dose per the system is needed.
Now I was speaking about using a proper dose of SMB, doing the colder ferment with a sulfury German lager strain and making yeast derived sulfites. Upon the filling of the bottle/growler/ anything, the oxygen reacted and created SO2 from the yeast sulfites.
But you are correct when it could be one, the other or both.
Can't believe @Beerery is ducking for me  :)  The chemistry of these processes is complicated, even in systems less complicated than beer. One small comment on SO2 and sulfites: SO2 (sulfur dioxide) and sulfites are the same thing; at beer pH the predominant form of sulfites is the bisulfite ion HSO3-; as pH gets acidic, more of the bisulfite becomes SO2, as pH gets basic, more of the bisulfite becomes sulfite.
Hence, sulfite oxidation does not lead to SO2. It may lead to sulfate (eg oxidation of bisulfite via peroxide) or to other sulfur compounds.
@Beerery is awesome, but he cannot answer every question (yet); we need to help him gather more data.

Thanks for the kind words Lupulus and the clarification!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 14, 2016, 02:27:33 PM
Bryan,

Was curious if you have ever bottled (with a beer-gun or counter-pressure filler) off of your spunded kegs and to what results you obtained with this?  ie like if you were packaging for some friends or even a competition. Did you notice immediate decrease in flavor/aroma from those bottled beers in that fashion or was the good stuff still around for a little and slowly deteriorating instead?

Just curious as I like to enter comps and was wondering how these LODO beers would hold up in the bottle for 2-3 wks prior to being judged if properly beer-gunned or the like?

I have, and the results were always lackluster. I would see an immediate decrease in fresh malt flavor, and in some cases all of a sudden sulfur would apprear.

Any ideas as to why the sulfur would reappear?

Yea, yeast sulfite consumption from the oxidation of the filling/purging process.


Just wanna be sure I'm clear on the concept - the excess sulfur comes from using more SMB than is justified for the 'airtightness' of your system, or from excessive contact with air, or both? Obviously want to avoid the excess.

At the risk of over simplifying it (ducks and looks for Lupulus  8) ). I think its actually a few processes. IF its an ale yeast they don't have a great tolerance for dealing with the SO2(sulfur dioxide) that the sulfite consumption(oxygen) has caused(again just my theory). If its a lager yeast they have a better tolerance, but none the less a proper dose per the system is needed.
Now I was speaking about using a proper dose of SMB, doing the colder ferment with a sulfury German lager strain and making yeast derived sulfites. Upon the filling of the bottle/growler/ anything, the oxygen reacted and created SO2 from the yeast sulfites.
But you are correct when it could be one, the other or both.


 I remember you posting the DO levels for beer guns BTW. Just curious.

Wait a minute, where and when was this?  How did I miss that one?  Any help?

Great question! They are somewhere..Going to say it was something like .3-4 DO, which lost the fresh grain in about 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: juggabrew303 on December 14, 2016, 05:19:29 PM
I'm going to do the keg purge with the star san method and push out through my beer lines.  Is there anyway I could transfer my primary to the closed keg with an auto syphon? I use a big mouth  and it does not have a bottom valve. Would there be too much back pressure on the out post of Corny to auto syphon from primary? If I open the keg lid to fill I would think I'm defeating the purpose of limiting O2 right?


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 14, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
I'm going to do the keg purge with the star san method and push out through my beer lines.  Is there anyway I could transfer my primary to the closed keg with an auto syphon? I use a big mouth  and it does not have a bottom valve. Would there be too much back pressure on the out post of Corny to auto syphon from primary? If I open the keg lid to fill I would think I'm defeating the purpose of limiting O2 right?


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Well..

I think you could do something.. Here is how I would tackle it.

I would not use star-san, foam=bubbles=oxygen. I use saniclean personally(low foaming).

what you will want to do is make sure your autosiphon has no air bubbles, then attach that to the keg out post. You should then be able to open the PRV( I would make sure you don't have much pressure in the keg at this point), and the siphon should start.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 14, 2016, 10:09:58 PM
I'm going to do the keg purge with the star san method and push out through my beer lines.  Is there anyway I could transfer my primary to the closed keg with an auto syphon? I use a big mouth  and it does not have a bottom valve. Would there be too much back pressure on the out post of Corny to auto syphon from primary? If I open the keg lid to fill I would think I'm defeating the purpose of limiting O2 right?


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Well..

I think you could do something.. Here is how I would tackle it.

I would not use star-san, foam=bubbles=oxygen. I use saniclean personally(low foaming).

what you will want to do is make sure your autosiphon has no air bubbles, then attach that to the keg out post. You should then be able to open the PRV( I would make sure you don't have much pressure in the keg at this point), and the siphon should start.


And you can purge the O2 on the initial autosiphon stroke by attaching the autosiphon to the hose and then attach the hose with the QCD to the out post on the keg (with a good CO2 charge in it) and blast the autosiphon with that CO2 release....it takes a little getting used to and is likely not completely free of O2 ingress, but it worked for me.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 15, 2016, 02:18:08 AM
In the spirit of how this thread started.  Open questions about Low Oxygen Brewing

 “it takes less than 1 minute of oxygen exposure in excess of 1 ppm to completely rob the beer of the fresh malt flavor”. 

This has to refer to pure oxygen.  I don't see how this would be in the air we are brewing in.  According to Henry's Law, - 100% air saturation is the equilibrium point for gases in water. This is because gas molecules diffuse between the atmosphere and the water's surface. The dissolved oxygen content of water is proportional to the percent of oxygen (partial pressure) in the air above it would not put that much oxygen into a solution even at a homebrew scale.  So temp coefficient for henry's law is what applies as well as the atoms weigh which is dissolving into the water:
https://chemengineering.wikispaces.com/file/view/Henry%27s_Law.png/242583375/Henry%27s_Law.png

Then one has to considering the content of the 'Air' is not primarily oxygen -  roughly 80% nitrogen, 18% oxygen, 1% argon, 0.05% carbon dioxide, and others.  So I don't see how 1ppm/minute applies.  I don't want to argue the theory because I have not tested it.  However things I really don't see helping foam, foil, rapid chilling, HSO, decreasing the dissolved oxygen with SMB would take more time than the 1min it would take to 'destroy' the beer and it would have to be held at 100C, or under an oxygen purged vessel.  How would you do so?

Pros that I can try and swallow is removing copper, however many great breweries still have it.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 15, 2016, 02:32:40 AM
In the spirit of how this thread started.  Open questions about Low Oxygen Brewing

 “it takes less than 1 minute of oxygen exposure in excess of 1 ppm to completely rob the beer of the fresh malt flavor”. 

This has to refer to pure oxygen.  I don't see how this would be in the air we are brewing in.  According to Henry's Law, - 100% air saturation is the equilibrium point for gases in water. This is because gas molecules diffuse between the atmosphere and the water's surface. The dissolved oxygen content of water is proportional to the percent of oxygen (partial pressure) in the air above it would not put that much oxygen into a solution even at a homebrew scale.  So temp coefficient for henry's law is what applies as well as the atoms weigh which is dissolving into the water:
https://chemengineering.wikispaces.com/file/view/Henry%27s_Law.png/242583375/Henry%27s_Law.png

Then one has to considering the content of the 'Air' is not primarily oxygen -  roughly 80% nitrogen, 18% oxygen, 1% argon, 0.05% carbon dioxide, and others.  So I don't see how 1ppm/minute applies.  I don't want to argue the theory because I have not tested it.  However things I really don't see helping foam, foil, rapid chilling, HSO, decreasing the dissolved oxygen with SMB would take more time than the 1min it would take to 'destroy' the beer and it would have to be held at 100C, or under an oxygen purged vessel.  How would you do so?

Pros that I can try and swallow is removing copper, however many great breweries still have it.

I think you're missing the point. Dissolved oxygen ingress via exchange with the atmosphere is the least of your worries especially given the rate of 1-2 ppm/hr.

The real killers are the dissolved oxygen content of untreated water and the dissolved oxygen ingress from dough in with splashing and heavy stirring.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 15, 2016, 02:42:58 AM


I think you're missing the point. Dissolved oxygen ingress via exchange with the atmosphere is the least of your worries especially given the rate of 1-2 ppm/hr.

The real killers are the dissolved oxygen content of untreated water and the dissolved oxygen ingress from dough in with splashing and heavy stirring.

Would most paddles cause that much trouble?  Crushing malts would create more exposure to the malt than heavy splashing and stirring don't you think?

I could see the addition of SMB of RO water would help a little.  The rate at which it is suggested to use I think is a exaggeration of the 'Free" dissolved Oxygen content of the water.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 15, 2016, 02:46:07 AM


I think you're missing the point. Dissolved oxygen ingress via exchange with the atmosphere is the least of your worries especially given the rate of 1-2 ppm/hr.

The real killers are the dissolved oxygen content of untreated water and the dissolved oxygen ingress from dough in with splashing and heavy stirring.

Would most paddles cause that much trouble?  Crushing malts would create more exposure to the malt than heavy splashing and stirring don't you think?

Conditioning your malt allows for less disturbance/degradation of the husk material and therefore less exposure to the acrospire and LOX.

You can use SMB in your conditioning water and dough in shortly after crushing to minimize the effects.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 15, 2016, 02:54:14 AM
Such as wet milling?
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 15, 2016, 03:00:57 AM
Such as wet milling?

The distinction between conditioned dry milling and wet milling needs to be made.

Conditioned dry milling is what most of us would consider grain conditioning. You treated the grain to a small percentage by weight of water, either treated or untreated, and then mill. This only moistens the husk, making it more pliable and keeping it from becoming shredded.

Wet milling has a few varieties and is difficult to implement at this scale. Bryan and I talked about steam conditioning and steep conditioning, both of which he implemented, and the results were less than stellar, with water uptake being too great to subsequently mill.

True wet milling involves essentially a malt slurry being run through inerted/gassed mills with essentially zero dissolved oxygen.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 01:50:39 PM


I think you're missing the point. Dissolved oxygen ingress via exchange with the atmosphere is the least of your worries especially given the rate of 1-2 ppm/hr.

The real killers are the dissolved oxygen content of untreated water and the dissolved oxygen ingress from dough in with splashing and heavy stirring.

Would most paddles cause that much trouble?  Crushing malts would create more exposure to the malt than heavy splashing and stirring don't you think?

I could see the addition of SMB of RO water would help a little.  The rate at which it is suggested to use I think is a exaggeration of the 'Free" dissolved Oxygen content of the water.

Good questions...

Don't forget we proboil/deoxygenate our water before SMB is added.. this essentially knocks down DO to .5 or below. Then we add SMB, so the SMB can be the active scavenger.

As Monk stated we know about Henry's law and while that IS a factor its not the factor that is going to kill you on dough in. Mixing oxygen laden malt with oxygen laden water at high temperatures is.
Please check out our references page on http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/)

A good one to start is http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Narziss-1986-Journal_of_the_Institute_of_Brewing.pdf (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Narziss-1986-Journal_of_the_Institute_of_Brewing.pdf)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 01:53:04 PM
Such as wet milling?

The distinction between conditioned dry milling and wet milling needs to be made.

Conditioned dry milling is what most of us would consider grain conditioning. You treated the grain to a small percentage by weight of water, either treated or untreated, and then mill. This only moistens the husk, making it more pliable and keeping it from becoming shredded.

Wet milling has a few varieties and is difficult to implement at this scale. Bryan and I talked about steam conditioning and steep conditioning, both of which he implemented, and the results were less than stellar, with water uptake being too great to subsequently mill.

True wet milling involves essentially a malt slurry being run through inerted/gassed mills with essentially zero dissolved oxygen.

This is true, I have tried "wet" milling and other forms of grain conditioning.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 15, 2016, 03:47:10 PM
So, I am assuming one can not perform the malt conditioning step with milling, and if mash water is preboiled and SMB treated along with no splashing (underletting) and gentle stirring that DO levels will still be in the appropriate range?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 03:50:20 PM
So, I am assuming one can not perform the malt conditioning step with milling, and if mash water is preboiled and SMB treated along with no splashing (underletting) and gentle stirring that DO levels will still be in the appropriate range?

No, you definitely WANT to malt condition. Try to time the crush as close to dough in as possible. For instance I crush when the water is cooling down to dough in temp. The rest you have is correct.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 15, 2016, 03:51:51 PM
So, I am assuming one can not perform the malt conditioning step with milling, and if mash water is preboiled and SMB treated along with no splashing (underletting) and gentle stirring that DO levels will still be in the appropriate range?

No, you definitely WANT to malt condition. Try to time the crush as close to dough in as possible. For instance I crush when the water is cooling down to dough in temp. The rest you have is correct.

Is that step a make or break?  Or does it just provide extra added insurance for minimizing dissolved oxygen ingress?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 03:55:56 PM
So, I am assuming one can not perform the malt conditioning step with milling, and if mash water is preboiled and SMB treated along with no splashing (underletting) and gentle stirring that DO levels will still be in the appropriate range?

No, you definitely WANT to malt condition. Try to time the crush as close to dough in as possible. For instance I crush when the water is cooling down to dough in temp. The rest you have is correct.

Is that step a make or break?  Or does it just provide extra added insurance for minimizing dissolved oxygen ingress?

Its so easy I don't know why anyone would skip it. The benefits are numerous, for a super minimal amount of work. I wouldn't say its a break, its more mill dependent, but it can never hurt.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: coolman26 on December 15, 2016, 04:06:40 PM
I stopped condition a ways back, not sure why. When I brewed yesterday, I conditioned and the husk difference is easily seen. Tried to limit aeration as much as possible with my system. I've never had egg drop soup in my break before. I chilled in the kettle by recirculating through my CFC. Not sure if that is best, but the break left behind was sizable.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 15, 2016, 04:07:11 PM
IMO, the best way to implement this is to get a large surface area plastic container, dump your weighed out grains in there, spread them around and then start spraying. Spray, mix, spray, mix, until all of the malt just barely sticks to your hand when mixing. It doesn't take long at all, cuts down on dust and keeps the husk far more intact than dry milling.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 04:11:25 PM
IMO, the best way to implement this is to get a large surface area plastic container, dump your weighed out grains in there, spread them around and then start spraying. Spray, mix, spray, mix, until all of the malt just barely sticks to your hand when mixing. It doesn't take long at all, cuts down on dust and keeps the husk far more intact than dry milling.


Here is what I do
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: reverseapachemaster on December 15, 2016, 04:22:02 PM
IMO, the best way to implement this is to get a large surface area plastic container, dump your weighed out grains in there, spread them around and then start spraying. Spray, mix, spray, mix, until all of the malt just barely sticks to your hand when mixing. It doesn't take long at all, cuts down on dust and keeps the husk far more intact than dry milling.

Seems like for the LODO process that is introducing a lot of aerated water to the grain, which I thought was to be avoided at all costs.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 15, 2016, 04:41:06 PM
I've been using a large mixing bowl and condition 1lb at a time. Not ideal, but it works for me for now. I think a cement mixing tub and rake will be where I settle in on this process.

I need to mill the night before. I start my brew days at 6am now to avoid the afternoon breeze. I can't mill on my balcony that early on a weekend.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 04:45:07 PM
IMO, the best way to implement this is to get a large surface area plastic container, dump your weighed out grains in there, spread them around and then start spraying. Spray, mix, spray, mix, until all of the malt just barely sticks to your hand when mixing. It doesn't take long at all, cuts down on dust and keeps the husk far more intact than dry milling.

Seems like for the LODO process that is introducing a lot of aerated water to the grain, which I thought was to be avoided at all costs.

I would call a lot a stretch.. a few oz for 10lbs of grain is far from a lot. I use SMB dosed water personally though.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 15, 2016, 04:49:42 PM
IMO, the best way to implement this is to get a large surface area plastic container, dump your weighed out grains in there, spread them around and then start spraying. Spray, mix, spray, mix, until all of the malt just barely sticks to your hand when mixing. It doesn't take long at all, cuts down on dust and keeps the husk far more intact than dry milling.

Seems like for the LODO process that is introducing a lot of aerated water to the grain, which I thought was to be avoided at all costs.

I would call a lot a stretch.. a few oz for 10lbs of grain is far from a lot. I use SMB dosed water personally though.
I've started using SMB dosed water for conditioning as well.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: wobdee on December 15, 2016, 05:10:35 PM
How long do you guys wait to crush after conditioning? I've been going about 15-20 min and timing it as close to dough in as I can.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 05:20:11 PM
How long do you guys wait to crush after conditioning? I've been going about 15-20 min and timing it as close to dough in as I can.

Yup, about that.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebrews on December 15, 2016, 05:26:18 PM
Have you been able to quantify if the SMB in the conditioning water is doing much?  It seems like the huge surface area to volume ratio that is created when spraying would eat up any possible buffering in a big hurry.  Then again,  if the reaction time of the SMB isn't too quick (> 10 seconds or something) then I guess the spraying would just mean it would have to deal with the 8ppm of o2 that you can get into water from the air after it had gotten onto/into the malt.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 05:28:47 PM
Have you been able to quantify if the SMB in the conditioning water is doing much?  It seems like the huge surface area to volume ratio that is created when spraying would eat up any possible buffering in a big hurry.  Then again,  if the reaction time of the SMB isn't too quick (> 10 seconds or something) then I guess the spraying would just mean it would have to deal with the 8ppm of o2 that you can get into water from the air after it had gotten onto/into the malt.

Nope, you are exactly correct. Its more a thing I have done forever and continue to do.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 15, 2016, 05:45:08 PM
How long do you guys wait to crush after conditioning? I've been going about 15-20 min and timing it as close to dough in as I can.
Almost immediately after conditioning, but might start waiting a few minutes before crushing.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 05:52:41 PM
How long do you guys wait to crush after conditioning? I've been going about 15-20 min and timing it as close to dough in as I can.
Almost immediately after conditioning, but might start waiting a few minutes before crushing.

Yea, I would let that water do its work.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 15, 2016, 06:52:02 PM
What is accomplished by 'conditioning' the malt?  How does it protect the grains?

Wouldn't the grains itself be oxidized prior to becoming malt? 

Narziss summarizes the effect low pressure high temperature boiling has an effect on oxidation and maillard reactions to flavor stability in aged beer.  "He then goes on to say there was virtually no difference between the beers of brewery F and D from table 17. pg 8.  There was no deterioration of flavour stability."  While HMF is the primary concern rather than trans-2-nonenal precursors.

While Bamforth discusses the developed flavour instability with oxygenation and storage temperatures in bottled beer.  While degassing vessels and malt with inert gass like nitro, is helpful if you can wet mill.  However without it, I think it is all lost.  There is no doubt that there is a chemical change during bottle storage.

If you were to purge with an inert gas, wouldn't nitro be more sufficient than CO2 for low dissolved oxygen ingress?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 15, 2016, 07:48:32 PM
More husk intact equals less exposed acrospire which means less LOX


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 15, 2016, 08:10:53 PM
More husk intact equals less exposed acrospire which means less LOX


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There is nothing the husk will do to stop exposure to acrospires, your stripping the husk from the acrospires during milling.  Then there is the subject of PPO and how Pilsner has it and the off flavors produced by PPO.

The benefits SMB has is that it denatures PPO, and that might be the difference most people are detecting in their brews.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 08:44:31 PM
What is accomplished by 'conditioning' the malt?  How does it protect the grains?

Wouldn't the grains itself be oxidized prior to becoming malt? 

Narziss summarizes the effect low pressure high temperature boiling has an effect on oxidation and maillard reactions to flavor stability in aged beer.  "He then goes on to say there was virtually no difference between the beers of brewery F and D from table 17. pg 8.  There was no deterioration of flavour stability."  While HMF is the primary concern rather than trans-2-nonenal precursors.

While Bamforth discusses the developed flavour instability with oxygenation and storage temperatures in bottled beer.  While degassing vessels and malt with inert gass like nitro, is helpful if you can wet mill.  However without it, I think it is all lost.  There is no doubt that there is a chemical change during bottle storage.

If you were to purge with an inert gas, wouldn't nitro be more sufficient than CO2 for low dissolved oxygen ingress?

OK.. so a lot to go though

Answer to grain conditioning:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/)


Answer to boiling:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/)

Answer to Nitrogen.. Yes, I would say it would be more efficient. Please do read though the paper, and the resources, you will find a lot of great answers.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 08:51:13 PM
More husk intact equals less exposed acrospire which means less LOX


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There is nothing the husk will do to stop exposure to acrospires, your stripping the husk from the acrospires during milling.  Then there is the subject of PPO and how Pilsner has it and the off flavors produced by PPO.

The benefits SMB has is that it denatures PPO, and that might be the difference most people are detecting in their brews.

I think you would love Kunze, He has a whole chapter (2) dedicated to barley and malting.

You are correct, the husk intactness is for the reasons I listed in my last post under grain conditioning. As I have said before Kunze mentions breweries sifting and discarding the acrospries completely.

Malting no doubt has an effect on IT factor, however pilsners IT is just fresh malt. Vienna is raw dough, Carahell is fresh honey, Carared is toffee, caramunich is caramel., etc etc etc. I promise you SMB is not the red herring here.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 15, 2016, 08:54:31 PM
What is accomplished by 'conditioning' the malt?  How does it protect the grains?

Wouldn't the grains itself be oxidized prior to becoming malt? 

Narziss summarizes the effect low pressure high temperature boiling has an effect on oxidation and maillard reactions to flavor stability in aged beer.  "He then goes on to say there was virtually no difference between the beers of brewery F and D from table 17. pg 8.  There was no deterioration of flavour stability."  While HMF is the primary concern rather than trans-2-nonenal precursors.

While Bamforth discusses the developed flavour instability with oxygenation and storage temperatures in bottled beer.  While degassing vessels and malt with inert gass like nitro, is helpful if you can wet mill.  However without it, I think it is all lost.  There is no doubt that there is a chemical change during bottle storage.

If you were to purge with an inert gas, wouldn't nitro be more sufficient than CO2 for low dissolved oxygen ingress?

OK.. so a lot to go though

Answer to grain conditioning:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/)


Answer to boiling:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/)

Answer to Nitrogen.. Yes, I would say it would be more efficient. Please do read though the paper, and the resources, you will find a lot of great answers.
What evidence shows a coarser crush has a higher yeild, conversion efficiency, and a lower conversion time?

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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 08:57:33 PM
What is accomplished by 'conditioning' the malt?  How does it protect the grains?

Wouldn't the grains itself be oxidized prior to becoming malt? 

Narziss summarizes the effect low pressure high temperature boiling has an effect on oxidation and maillard reactions to flavor stability in aged beer.  "He then goes on to say there was virtually no difference between the beers of brewery F and D from table 17. pg 8.  There was no deterioration of flavour stability."  While HMF is the primary concern rather than trans-2-nonenal precursors.

While Bamforth discusses the developed flavour instability with oxygenation and storage temperatures in bottled beer.  While degassing vessels and malt with inert gass like nitro, is helpful if you can wet mill.  However without it, I think it is all lost.  There is no doubt that there is a chemical change during bottle storage.

If you were to purge with an inert gas, wouldn't nitro be more sufficient than CO2 for low dissolved oxygen ingress?

OK.. so a lot to go though

Answer to grain conditioning:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/)


Answer to boiling:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/)

Answer to Nitrogen.. Yes, I would say it would be more efficient. Please do read though the paper, and the resources, you will find a lot of great answers.
What evidence shows a coarser crush has a higher yeild, conversion efficiency, and a lower conversion time?

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

That would be those folks who are in the list of Brewing Textbooks, under the Brewing references page.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 15, 2016, 09:12:14 PM
 How tight is your mill gap Bryan?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 15, 2016, 09:24:19 PM
How tight is your mill gap Bryan?
.041 on the first set
.029 on the second
I mill at 144rpm, as that matters as well.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 15, 2016, 09:27:50 PM
I have a two roller at .29 on conditioned malt. Going to loosen it a hair as I am getting too high (low 90's) on low gravity beers. Looking for that sweet spot where I can get satisfactory results at the low and high end. Going 1.032 on my next mild
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 15, 2016, 09:38:48 PM
I have a two roller at .29 on conditioned malt. Going to loosen it a hair as I am getting too high (low 90's) on low gravity beers. Looking for that sweet spot where I can get satisfactory results at the low and high end. Going 1.032 on my next mild
I'm at .032", which is a nice setting, I think. I probably mill too fast as well. What repercussions would milling too fast have? All the grain mills just fine, no unmilled kernels.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 15, 2016, 09:58:07 PM
More husk intact equals less exposed acrospire which means less LOX


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There is nothing the husk will do to stop exposure to acrospires, your stripping the husk from the acrospires during milling.  Then there is the subject of PPO and how Pilsner has it and the off flavors produced by PPO.

The benefits SMB has is that it denatures PPO, and that might be the difference most people are detecting in their brews.

I misspoke here. I was after a different bit here concerning what Bryan later spoke about (separating out acrospires) and my truncated post lacked the depth to make that clear.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: coolman26 on December 16, 2016, 03:49:55 PM
Mine is .041 and second is at .032. I'm milling at 200rpm. My speed reduced drill can't handle less.



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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 16, 2016, 04:03:45 PM
What is accomplished by 'conditioning' the malt?  How does it protect the grains?

ingress?


Answer to Nitrogen.. Yes, I would say it would be more efficient. Please do read though the paper, and the resources, you will find a lot of great answers.
What evidence shows a coarser crush has a higher yeild, conversion efficiency, and a lower conversion time?

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

That would be those folks who are in the list of Brewing Textbooks, under the Brewing references page.


I am not sure what information you are referring to.  The text I find, and even within your own list of references - Brewing Science and Practices
Table 5.1-5.3 discusses the higher extracts from finer mills
Then  6.3, last sentence in the section - "Other disadvantages of mash tuns are their inflexibility with regard to mashing temperatures, their requirement for a coarsely ground grist (with a consequent reduction in extract recovery), the need for well modified malts and the difficulty in using wet, cooked adjuncts."

Then Troester, Bamforth, Kai, Stevens etc all state the opposite of your claim.  A coarse mill will decrease efficiency.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 16, 2016, 04:21:14 PM
What is accomplished by 'conditioning' the malt?  How does it protect the grains?

ingress?


Answer to Nitrogen.. Yes, I would say it would be more efficient. Please do read though the paper, and the resources, you will find a lot of great answers.
What evidence shows a coarser crush has a higher yeild, conversion efficiency, and a lower conversion time?

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

That would be those folks who are in the list of Brewing Textbooks, under the Brewing references page.


I am not sure what information you are referring to.  The text I find, and even within your own list of references - Brewing Science and Practices
Table 5.1-5.3 discusses the higher extracts from finer mills
Then  6.3, last sentence in the section - "Other disadvantages of mash tuns are their inflexibility with regard to mashing temperatures, their requirement for a coarsely ground grist (with a consequent reduction in extract recovery), the need for well modified malts and the difficulty in using wet, cooked adjuncts."

Then Troester, Bamforth, Kai, Stevens etc all state the opposite of your claim.  A coarse mill will decrease efficiency.

Kunze is pretty clear about the advantages of a course crush using well modified malt and "intensive" mash schedules (step mashing). Kunze Chapter 3 is a bonanza of information.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 16, 2016, 04:42:57 PM
Kunze and Narziss, speak of it.

Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on December 19, 2016, 03:10:08 PM
I appreciate the effort by Brulosophy, but it seems that too much oxygen is introduced in the dry hop and transfer steps here, and without DO measurements you have a comparison between unverified variables. http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/post-fermentation-oxidation-pt-1-normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 19, 2016, 03:44:48 PM
I appreciate the effort by Brulosophy, but it seems that too much oxygen is introduced in the dry hop and transfer steps here, and without DO measurements you have a comparison between unverified variables. http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/post-fermentation-oxidation-pt-1-normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No offense to Brulosphy but the experiment is moot as the wort is already compromised from dough in on. I wouldn't expect much of a difference. It doesn't say much except that additional oxidation after that isn't that big of a deal.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 19, 2016, 03:49:49 PM
Yea unfortunately until a wort is made low oxygen, then put though these tests it means nothing to us. We don't adhere to the same variables. Once I see low oxygen beers produced and tested in the same ways, I will start to pay attention.
Also the time in which these beers are consumed, are way to short. Test those same beers in 3 months, 6 months and 9 months. You know they actually do have a REAL test for this.. the ITT test. Once could have simply sent a beer to the lab, which is what I have done.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 05:23:18 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 19, 2016, 05:24:33 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

Then Low Oxygen brewing is perfect for you!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 05:26:49 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

Then Low Oxygen brewing is perfect for you!


when the evidence is in, I will gladly convert :)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 19, 2016, 05:39:57 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

Then Low Oxygen brewing is perfect for you!


when the evidence is in, I will gladly convert :)

May not be the sensory "test" you are looking for but the mini-mash procedure may be something you'd be interested in.

You will have one sample of Low Oxygen wort and one sample of normal wort to compare side by side.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 19, 2016, 05:42:14 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

The ITT test, tests if the beer is going to taste good...
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 19, 2016, 05:43:16 PM
We can learn something from most experiments, including this one. Here is what I noticed in the Brülosophy experiment:
1.  Results- last paragraph: "both beers were one dimensional and boring, though notably clean with no detectable off-flavors". I think that it is part of a reasonable experimental design that your control beer is a very good to excellent beer, and the recipe, when well brewed and with good ingredients, should be able to lead to a very good pale ale. If the author's comment is correct, then the control beer was no an adequate media to test a hypothesis. Suggestion for the future: enter the beer in a competition or have 2 BJCP judges score the beer to validate the testing media; I suggest a score of 35 or higher for the control beer.
2. Paragraph just before results: "beers were ... remarkably similar in color". I think a similar color suggests that the oxidation has already taken place (the author mentions this possibility in the discussion). 
Both these points support what we already know about oxidation in the cold side.
Next steps I would personally suggest would be to:
- Ensure the quality of the control beer
- Use spunding or keg conditioned beer as your control
- Compare with sanitizer/ CO2 emptied keg, with normal-air keg and with splashing (start with splashing which should provide the biggest difference).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 19, 2016, 05:47:18 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.
You make a very valid point. Indeed, the main flaw of the Brülosophy experiments is that they cannot prove that the control beer tastes good.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 05:48:27 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

The ITT test, tests if the beer is going to taste good...

tasting the beer tests if it is going to taste good.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 05:49:05 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

Then Low Oxygen brewing is perfect for you!


when the evidence is in, I will gladly convert :)

May not be the sensory "test" you are looking for but the mini-mash procedure may be something you'd be interested in.

You will have one sample of Low Oxygen wort and one sample of normal wort to compare side by side.

tried it. Wasn't impressed.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 05:53:17 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.
You make a very valid point. Indeed, the main flaw of the Brülosophy experiments is that they cannot prove that the control beer tastes good.

I reckon the multitudes of tasters, that vary in range from novice to well trained enjoying much of his beer shows us he makes good beer. I know this concept does not register to some here, since its either LODO brewing or amateur hobbyist in your opinions.

I'm glad you guys have found a nice way to brew beer that works for you, its when you discount everyone else that rubs people the wrong way.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 19, 2016, 05:54:51 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

The ITT test, tests if the beer is going to taste good...

tasting the beer tests if it is going to taste good.

The triangle test is designed to taste which one of the three liquids you are tasting is different.
Brülosophy does not perform a sensory evaluation designed to validate the quality of the beer.  So, they do not publish whether the beer tastes as it should.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 05:55:38 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

The ITT test, tests if the beer is going to taste good...

tasting the beer tests if it is going to taste good.

The triangle test is designed to taste which one of the three liquids you are tasting is different.
Brülosophy does not perform a sensory evaluation designed to validate the quality of the beer.  So, they do not publish whether the beer tastes as it should.

from what I gather, they also ask the tasters if they actually liked the beer though.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 19, 2016, 06:02:10 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.
You make a very valid point. Indeed, the main flaw of the Brülosophy experiments is that they cannot prove that the control beer tastes good.

I reckon the multitudes of tasters, that vary in range from novice to well trained enjoying much of his beer shows us he makes good beer. I know this concept does not register to some here, since its either LODO brewing or amateur hobbyist in your opinions.

I'm glad you guys have found a nice way to brew beer that works for you, its when you discount everyone else that rubs people the wrong way.

The rules of science apply to everyone. Whether multitude of testers like or dislike the beer that someone makes is immaterial to this discussion. One should review data based on its merits or demerits and nothing else. I am telling you as a scientist what the problem with this experiment is. If you have a scientific counterargument, do make it please.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: lupulus on December 19, 2016, 06:08:37 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

The ITT test, tests if the beer is going to taste good...

tasting the beer tests if it is going to taste good.

The triangle test is designed to taste which one of the three liquids you are tasting is different.
Brülosophy does not perform a sensory evaluation designed to validate the quality of the beer.  So, they do not publish whether the beer tastes as it should.

from what I gather, they also ask the tasters if they actually liked the beer though.
In this particular experiment, the brewer himself states his beer was one-dimensional and boring.  And no, they do not ask that question, and they should not be asking it because the tasters are blinded so they do not know which one is the control beer.  There was no sensory panel or evaluation of the quality of the beer in this experiment or in the ones I have read. In fact, in one of the recent experiments, a Berliner Weisse, the brewer himself stated the beer was not very good, and that he would have scored it as a 28 (BJCP).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 06:09:18 PM
nope, not a scientist, and neither are the people tasting his beer I presume. We're just plain old beer drinkers, what would we know.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 19, 2016, 06:15:48 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

Then Low Oxygen brewing is perfect for you!


when the evidence is in, I will gladly convert :)

May not be the sensory "test" you are looking for but the mini-mash procedure may be something you'd be interested in.

You will have one sample of Low Oxygen wort and one sample of normal wort to compare side by side.

tried it. Wasn't impressed.

Interesting. What method did you use? The established method given by Original GBF member Roachbrau is shown below:

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161219/b554a832713b6f606ad67477f7feaea3.jpg)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 06:21:53 PM
used c20 and not carahell, since I didn't have that on hand.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 19, 2016, 06:38:12 PM
used c20 and not carahell, since I didn't have that on hand.
Don't suppose it's for everyone. It's been said from the beginning - if you like the way you're brewing now, no need to change. I can understand how you feel about people feeling it's superior. For many beer styles? Maybe not "superior". For German lagers? Prooooobably superior. Because that's how they're brewed nowadays and if you want that certain flavor profile, that's how you get it.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on December 19, 2016, 06:53:36 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 06:54:17 PM
used c20 and not carahell, since I didn't have that on hand.
Don't suppose it's for everyone. It's been said from the beginning - if you like the way you're brewing now, no need to change. I can understand how you feel about people feeling it's superior. For many beer styles? Maybe not "superior". For German lagers? Prooooobably superior. Because that's how they're brewed nowadays and if you want that certain flavor profile, that's how you get it.

I'm always looking to improve, I just didn't taste too much of a difference, certainly not a game changer. And I think you said it best, "flavor profile".
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 19, 2016, 07:01:45 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.

Absolutely, thats why you want to pitch healthy active yeast and minimize lag.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 19, 2016, 07:05:31 PM
used c20 and not carahell, since I didn't have that on hand.
Don't suppose it's for everyone. It's been said from the beginning - if you like the way you're brewing now, no need to change. I can understand how you feel about people feeling it's superior. For many beer styles? Maybe not "superior". For German lagers? Prooooobably superior. Because that's how they're brewed nowadays and if you want that certain flavor profile, that's how you get it.

I'm always looking to improve, I just didn't taste too much of a difference, certainly not a game changer. And I think you said it best, "flavor profile".
I think it does make for fresher and brighter tasting beer though. And it really makes me wonder what many beers of the world would taste like if brewed this way. I don't know if a wort sample test is really going to change your mind, I know it has many people's minds, but for me, I really needed to brew and drink the finished beer. But I took babysteps to get where I am in low oxygen, so it wasn't an all-at-once sorta deal where my mind could be blown.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 19, 2016, 07:08:35 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 19, 2016, 07:12:17 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 07:15:35 PM
used c20 and not carahell, since I didn't have that on hand.
Don't suppose it's for everyone. It's been said from the beginning - if you like the way you're brewing now, no need to change. I can understand how you feel about people feeling it's superior. For many beer styles? Maybe not "superior". For German lagers? Prooooobably superior. Because that's how they're brewed nowadays and if you want that certain flavor profile, that's how you get it.

I'm always looking to improve, I just didn't taste too much of a difference, certainly not a game changer. And I think you said it best, "flavor profile".
I think it does make for fresher and brighter tasting beer though. And it really makes me wonder what many beers of the world would taste like if brewed this way. I don't know if a wort sample test is really going to change your mind, I know it has many people's minds, but for me, I really needed to brew and drink the finished beer. But I took babysteps to get where I am in low oxygen, so it wasn't an all-at-once sorta deal where my mind could be blown.

that's cool man, to each their own. For me, the little experiment didn't warrant changing my procedures.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: narcout on December 19, 2016, 07:19:44 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.

They often have discussions with posters regarding the design of a particular experiment on Reddit.  The Monday experiment results posts on r/homebrewing often have at least 100 comments. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 19, 2016, 07:21:32 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.

They often have discussions with posters regarding the design of a particular experiment on Reddit.  The Monday experiment results posts on r/homebrewing often have at least 100 comments.

Reddit... ugg. Its the SJW's of the internet world.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 19, 2016, 07:23:44 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.

They often have discussions with posters regarding the design of a particular experiment on Reddit.  The Monday experiment results posts on r/homebrewing often have at least 100 comments. 
Ah, I see. They've found their niche on Reddit.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on December 19, 2016, 07:40:28 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.

Absolutely, thats why you want to pitch healthy active yeast and minimize lag.
So, how fast does the yeast scavenge all the O2?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 19, 2016, 07:41:53 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.

Absolutely, thats why you want to pitch healthy active yeast and minimize lag.
So, how fast does the yeast scavenge all the O2?

Usually within 1-2 hrs, if healthy and active.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on December 19, 2016, 07:55:23 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.

They often have discussions with posters regarding the design of a particular experiment on Reddit.  The Monday experiment results posts on r/homebrewing often have at least 100 comments.

Reddit... ugg. Its the SJW's of the internet world.
Had to look up that abbreviation. Not nice.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 07:57:54 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.

They often have discussions with posters regarding the design of a particular experiment on Reddit.  The Monday experiment results posts on r/homebrewing often have at least 100 comments.

Reddit... ugg. Its the SJW's of the internet world.

sjw?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on December 19, 2016, 08:00:30 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.

Absolutely, thats why you want to pitch healthy active yeast and minimize lag.
So, how fast does the yeast scavenge all the O2?

Usually within 1-2 hrs, if healthy and active.
There is a point in brewing (aeration after yeast pitch) where we go from low DO to high DO.  Then commences a race between the O2 oxidation and yeast O2 scavenging.  If it's "minutes" vs "1-2 hrs", the yeast loses the race.  No?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 19, 2016, 08:01:24 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.

They often have discussions with posters regarding the design of a particular experiment on Reddit.  The Monday experiment results posts on r/homebrewing often have at least 100 comments.

Reddit... ugg. Its the SJW's of the internet world.

sjw?
Social Justice Warrior from what I gather.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 19, 2016, 08:06:18 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.

They often have discussions with posters regarding the design of a particular experiment on Reddit.  The Monday experiment results posts on r/homebrewing often have at least 100 comments.

Reddit... ugg. Its the SJW's of the internet world.

sjw?
Social Justice Warrior from what I gather.

something to do with homebrewing?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 19, 2016, 08:08:17 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.
Well, judging by the fact that Marshall doesn't post here anymore, I kinda think he got that impression from a lot of people.

They often have discussions with posters regarding the design of a particular experiment on Reddit.  The Monday experiment results posts on r/homebrewing often have at least 100 comments.

Reddit... ugg. Its the SJW's of the internet world.

sjw?
Silicone Jacketed Wire. It's more reliable than plastic.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 19, 2016, 08:09:27 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.

Absolutely, thats why you want to pitch healthy active yeast and minimize lag.
So, how fast does the yeast scavenge all the O2?

Usually within 1-2 hrs, if healthy and active.
There is a point in brewing (aeration after yeast pitch) where we go from low DO to high DO.  Then commences a race between the O2 oxidation and yeast O2 scavenging.  If it's "minutes" vs "1-2 hrs", the yeast loses the race.  No?

Its only minutes at mash temperatures, oxidation reactions slow with temperature.

But great questions.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on December 19, 2016, 11:22:32 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.

Absolutely, thats why you want to pitch healthy active yeast and minimize lag.
So, how fast does the yeast scavenge all the O2?

Usually within 1-2 hrs, if healthy and active.
There is a point in brewing (aeration after yeast pitch) where we go from low DO to high DO.  Then commences a race between the O2 oxidation and yeast O2 scavenging.  If it's "minutes" vs "1-2 hrs", the yeast loses the race.  No?

Its only minutes at mash temperatures, oxidation reactions slow with temperature.

But great questions.
After re-reading your web page on yeast I'm beginning to understand how you are dealing with that critical aeration-after-yeast-pitch O2 oxidation/scavenging race.

1.  Pitch 50% more yeast cells than called for by calculators.

2.  Pitch active (not dormant) yeast.

3.  Pitch healthy but O2-hungry yeast.  Yeast that has depleted most of its reserves of the stuff that it needs  O2 for.  That may be why dry yeast doesn't work well for LODO.  I've read that dry yeast comes out of the packet not needing O2.  Though I suppose one could try pitching dry yeast and not aerating.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 02:48:36 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.

Absolutely, thats why you want to pitch healthy active yeast and minimize lag.
So, how fast does the yeast scavenge all the O2?

Usually within 1-2 hrs, if healthy and active.
There is a point in brewing (aeration after yeast pitch) where we go from low DO to high DO.  Then commences a race between the O2 oxidation and yeast O2 scavenging.  If it's "minutes" vs "1-2 hrs", the yeast loses the race.  No?

Its only minutes at mash temperatures, oxidation reactions slow with temperature.

But great questions.
After re-reading your web page on yeast I'm beginning to understand how you are dealing with that critical aeration-after-yeast-pitch O2 oxidation/scavenging race.

1.  Pitch 50% more yeast cells than called for by calculators.

2.  Pitch active (not dormant) yeast.

3.  Pitch healthy but O2-hungry yeast.  Yeast that has depleted most of its reserves of the stuff that it needs  O2 for.  That may be why dry yeast doesn't work well for LODO.  I've read that dry yeast comes out of the packet not needing O2.  Though I suppose one could try pitching dry yeast and not aerating.

1. for Cold lager fermentations(the only ones we recommend), Absolutely. Ales standard pitching rates apply.

2. Yes, although I have great luck with my method.

3.Yup, exactly. Tried dry yeasts with and without oxygenating. I could get activity in sufficient time, but flavor and characteristics were not desirable.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 20, 2016, 04:20:27 PM
I recall reading posts in the various LODO threads that high DO in wort can oxidize the flavor compounds we are trying to protect in a matter of minutes.  Can that happen at various fermentation temps?  Ales at 66-68F.  Lagers at 46-52F.

Absolutely, thats why you want to pitch healthy active yeast and minimize lag.
So, how fast does the yeast scavenge all the O2?

Usually within 1-2 hrs, if healthy and active.
There is a point in brewing (aeration after yeast pitch) where we go from low DO to high DO.  Then commences a race between the O2 oxidation and yeast O2 scavenging.  If it's "minutes" vs "1-2 hrs", the yeast loses the race.  No?

Its only minutes at mash temperatures, oxidation reactions slow with temperature.

But great questions.
After re-reading your web page on yeast I'm beginning to understand how you are dealing with that critical aeration-after-yeast-pitch O2 oxidation/scavenging race.

1.  Pitch 50% more yeast cells than called for by calculators.

2.  Pitch active (not dormant) yeast.

3.  Pitch healthy but O2-hungry yeast.  Yeast that has depleted most of its reserves of the stuff that it needs  O2 for.  That may be why dry yeast doesn't work well for LODO.  I've read that dry yeast comes out of the packet not needing O2.  Though I suppose one could try pitching dry yeast and not aerating.

1. for Cold lager fermentations(the only ones we recommend), Absolutely. Ales standard pitching rates apply.

2. Yes, although I have great luck with my method.

3.Yup, exactly. Tried dry yeasts with and without oxygenating. I could get activity in sufficient time, but flavor and characteristics were not desirable.

so, for brewers that enjoy the flavor profile of certain dry yeasts, LODO brewing is not for them?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 04:26:43 PM
so, for brewers that enjoy the flavor profile of certain dry yeasts, LODO brewing is not for them?

I wouldn't say that. I think it's more a function of the cold fermentation schedule and those yeast not necessarily performing well in those conditions.

As with any method in the hobby, sometimes the introduction of new variables requires revision to process,ingredients and recipes.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 04:28:07 PM
I should have stated dry lager yeasts.

Make a wort and ferment it side by side with the liquid equivalent, and see. For me the dry lager strains fell flat when compared directly. You can still brew low oxygen and use the yeasts, it will effect the low oxygen method, but not rule it out. And to cut your next questions off at the pass, here is why.

The low oxygen method uses cold fermentation, dry lager yeast don't like cold fermentation, and tend to throw off flavors. The pitch rate about triples when you go down to those temp ranges as well, needing up to 5 packs/per 5 gallons if no rehydration. Also the dry lager yeasts are not good sulfur producers, and sulfur and sulfites(natural yeast derived) is our protection on the cold side of the house.

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 20, 2016, 06:01:17 PM
I know it eliminates the ease of use benefit of dry yeast, but if that's all you have available you could make a starter could you not?  Assuming the off flavors would be reduced by a larger pitch.

I recognize you'd be depleting all the reserves built into the dry yeast, but if the starter is stepped up to an adequate size and pitched while it's active that would seem to be moot.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 06:03:54 PM
I know it eliminates the ease of use benefit of dry yeast, but if that's all you have available you could make a starter could you not?  Assuming the off flavors would be reduced by a larger pitch.

I recognize you'd be depleting all the reserves built into the dry yeast, but if the starter is stepped up to an adequate size and pitched while it's active that would seem to be moot.

It's a solid theory, but in my trials even in my repitches I didn't care for it.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 06:05:37 PM
I know it eliminates the ease of use benefit of dry yeast, but if that's all you have available you could make a starter could you not?  Assuming the off flavors would be reduced by a larger pitch.

I recognize you'd be depleting all the reserves built into the dry yeast, but if the starter is stepped up to an adequate size and pitched while it's active that would seem to be moot.

I don't think it would help Joe. I know Bryan was pitching 50g of S-189 per the manu specs so I don't think it's a question of a larger pitch. With correct pitching rate and rehydration per fermentis, they still weren't performing well at those temperatures.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:09:23 PM
I appreciate the effort by Brulosophy, but it seems that too much oxygen is introduced in the dry hop and transfer steps here, and without DO measurements you have a comparison between unverified variables. http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/post-fermentation-oxidation-pt-1-normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/


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No offense to Brulosphy but the experiment is moot as the wort is already compromised from dough in on. I wouldn't expect much of a difference. It doesn't say much except that additional oxidation after that isn't that big of a deal.

No offense to you, but you may be missing their point.  AFAIK, it was to compare average levels of O2 to high levels.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bjanat on December 20, 2016, 06:16:00 PM
I know it eliminates the ease of use benefit of dry yeast, but if that's all you have available you could make a starter could you not?  Assuming the off flavors would be reduced by a larger pitch.

I recognize you'd be depleting all the reserves built into the dry yeast, but if the starter is stepped up to an adequate size and pitched while it's active that would seem to be moot.

I don't think it would help Joe. I know Bryan was pitching 50g of S-189 per the manu specs so I don't think it's a question of a larger pitch. With correct pitching rate and rehydration per fermentis, they still weren't performing well at those temperatures.
I can confirm this, 4 packs of MJ M76 into 15 liter 1050 wort at 8C, almost no fermentation in two weeks.


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:19:37 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 06:21:31 PM
I appreciate the effort by Brulosophy, but it seems that too much oxygen is introduced in the dry hop and transfer steps here, and without DO measurements you have a comparison between unverified variables. http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/post-fermentation-oxidation-pt-1-normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/


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No offense to Brulosphy but the experiment is moot as the wort is already compromised from dough in on. I wouldn't expect much of a difference. It doesn't say much except that additional oxidation after that isn't that big of a deal.

No offense to you, but you may be missing their point.  AFAIK, it was to compare average levels of O2 to high levels.
Then they certainly missed their mark, because they are both averagely oxidized. I know this because I have a DO meter and have tested it ( I must have missed their DO readings). You are talking .4ppm difference. average to high would be one of those methods and pure air, or splashing purposefully. However, even at that the time frame they consumed the beers would probably not be sufficient to show, and you have that already oxidized thing as well.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 06:23:47 PM
I appreciate the effort by Brulosophy, but it seems that too much oxygen is introduced in the dry hop and transfer steps here, and without DO measurements you have a comparison between unverified variables. http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/post-fermentation-oxidation-pt-1-normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/


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No offense to Brulosphy but the experiment is moot as the wort is already compromised from dough in on. I wouldn't expect much of a difference. It doesn't say much except that additional oxidation after that isn't that big of a deal.

No offense to you, but you may be missing their point.  AFAIK, it was to compare average levels of O2 to high levels.

No worries, none taken. I understood that much but still maintain the attitude of "Who cares?"

"Average" levels of O2 show detrimental effects on wort and ultimately the finished beer so the introduction of "higher" levels beyond that seems to be a moot point. Ultimately, the Brulosphy team states that the shelf life of the beer is limited by the speed at which it is consumed so the real important output of the experiment wouldn't  be documented by this experiment. The stability of the beer in 3, 6 or even 9 months would be the main point of interest.

Although the result given the elevated oxygen in the cold side process probably wouldn't be shocking.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:24:38 PM
I reckon the multitudes of tasters, that vary in range from novice to well trained enjoying much of his beer shows us he makes good beer. I know this concept does not register to some here, since its either LODO brewing or amateur hobbyist in your opinions.

I'm glad you guys have found a nice way to brew beer that works for you, its when you discount everyone else that rubs people the wrong way.

That's really been my issue, too.  This techniques assumes everyone wants the same thing out of their homebrewing.  I think we all know that's just not true.  We simply ARE amateur hobbyists, at least a great majority of us.  For those who want something more out it, LODO may be the answer.  But for many, I daresay most, homebrewers, the methods are just not worth their time and effort.  They have different goals for their hobby.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 06:24:44 PM
I know it eliminates the ease of use benefit of dry yeast, but if that's all you have available you could make a starter could you not?  Assuming the off flavors would be reduced by a larger pitch.

I recognize you'd be depleting all the reserves built into the dry yeast, but if the starter is stepped up to an adequate size and pitched while it's active that would seem to be moot.

I don't think it would help Joe. I know Bryan was pitching 50g of S-189 per the manu specs so I don't think it's a question of a larger pitch. With correct pitching rate and rehydration per fermentis, they still weren't performing well at those temperatures.
I can confirm this, 4 packs of MJ M76 into 15 liter 1050 wort at 8C, almost no fermentation in two weeks.


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Lag wasn't really what I was getting at, more poor flavor characteristics at low temps. I'm not sure what your issue was.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 20, 2016, 06:27:31 PM
I know it eliminates the ease of use benefit of dry yeast, but if that's all you have available you could make a starter could you not?  Assuming the off flavors would be reduced by a larger pitch.

I recognize you'd be depleting all the reserves built into the dry yeast, but if the starter is stepped up to an adequate size and pitched while it's active that would seem to be moot.

It's a solid theory, but in my trials even in my repitches I didn't care for it.

Still throwing off flavors?  Or just yeast you didn't care for? 

As far as pitching more packets (some of the other comments) my assumption was that part of the off-flavor problem is that lag time due to the dried nature of dry yeast.  If grown in a starter medium, you're eliminating that factor but it sounds like maybe there might be other issues.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:28:30 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.

This is something that they and we go through all the time...."you didn't do the experiment I would have done".  Take them for what they are.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:29:34 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

No, I'm saying that lab results don't matter of you like the beer.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 20, 2016, 06:31:26 PM
Lag wasn't really what I was getting at, more poor flavor characteristics at low temps. I'm not sure what your issue was.

Didn't see your post when I responded.  Yeast-related (as in don't like the yeast) or off-flavor characteristics (as in poor fermentation, etc.)?

I know you guys are pretty particular and have a preference for certain strains (we all do, don't we).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 06:31:38 PM
I know it eliminates the ease of use benefit of dry yeast, but if that's all you have available you could make a starter could you not?  Assuming the off flavors would be reduced by a larger pitch.

I recognize you'd be depleting all the reserves built into the dry yeast, but if the starter is stepped up to an adequate size and pitched while it's active that would seem to be moot.

It's a solid theory, but in my trials even in my repitches I didn't care for it.

Still throwing off flavors?  Or just yeast you didn't care for? 

As far as pitching more packets (some of the other comments) my assumption was that part of the off-flavor problem is that lag time due to the dried nature of dry yeast.  If grown in a starter medium, you're eliminating that factor but it sounds like maybe there might be other issues.

I would say a little of both.
I know its hard to imagine, hell 3 years ago I would have said no way too. However, its hard to put into words what happens when you taste that pristine wort for the first time. It changes everything, and every ingredient now has a new and different flavor. I have spent a lot of time testing and trying everything I can and whittled it down to these techniques.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 06:40:41 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

No, I'm saying that lab results don't matter of you like the beer.

So by the same logic, triangle results shouldn't  matter if you like the beer.

And if triangle results don't matter, why haven't you tried Low Oxygen brewing yet?

You strike me as someone who would want to try something before you wrote it off Denny. What is "Experimental Brewing" if not a reason to prove or disprove a provocative methodology? You have all the equipment, chemicals, grains, hops and brewing experience to give it a whack, why the resistance in the face of such a plethora of information, helpful ways to assist in implementation and a willingness by those who advocate to help people along?

All the information released as of late, all the references, the spreadsheet, LOB.com, the stepwise approach it contains, etc. was all created with this forum in mind to give the most succinct, foolproof and success laden path forward for everyone who would try it.

All of it was done in our free time, released free of charge and intended to help everyone here move forward with these techniques.

You are not so set in your ways and ideals that you wouldn't try something new for the hell of it, right? Many here are putting themselves out there.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:42:48 PM

So by the same logic, triangle results shouldn't  matter if you like the beer.

And if triangle results don't matter, why haven't you tried Low Oxygen brewing yet?

You strike me as someone who would want to try something before you wrote it off Denny. What is "Experimental Brewing" if not a reason to prove or disprove a provocative methodology? You have all the equipment, chemicals, grains, hops and brewing experience to give it a whack, why the resistance in the face of such a plethora of information, helpful ways to assist in implementation and a willingness by those who advocate to help people along?

All the information released as of late, all the references, the spreadsheet, LOB.com, the stepwise approach it contains, etc. was all created with this forum in mind to give the most succinct, foolproof and success laden path forward for everyone who would try it.

All of it was done in our free time, released free of charge and intended to help everyone here move forward with these techniques.

You are not so set in your ways and ideals that you wouldn't try something new for the hell of it, right? Many here are putting themselves out there.

Actually, I don't have all the stuff you list to try it.  And most importantly, the one thing I lack is time.  I'm simply not able to schedule a brew session so I can deoxygenate water.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 20, 2016, 06:43:47 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 06:45:01 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.

If you need a triangle test to tell you whether you should try a new method you need your work ethic checked.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 06:47:32 PM

So by the same logic, triangle results shouldn't  matter if you like the beer.

And if triangle results don't matter, why haven't you tried Low Oxygen brewing yet?

You strike me as someone who would want to try something before you wrote it off Denny. What is "Experimental Brewing" if not a reason to prove or disprove a provocative methodology? You have all the equipment, chemicals, grains, hops and brewing experience to give it a whack, why the resistance in the face of such a plethora of information, helpful ways to assist in implementation and a willingness by those who advocate to help people along?

All the information released as of late, all the references, the spreadsheet, LOB.com, the stepwise approach it contains, etc. was all created with this forum in mind to give the most succinct, foolproof and success laden path forward for everyone who would try it.

All of it was done in our free time, released free of charge and intended to help everyone here move forward with these techniques.

You are not so set in your ways and ideals that you wouldn't try something new for the hell of it, right? Many here are putting themselves out there.

Actually, I don't have all the stuff you list to try it.  And most importantly, the one thing I lack is time.  I'm simply not able to schedule a brew session so I can deoxygenate water.

You have it all! and you can deoxygenate the water using the yeast method ahead of schedule for the brewday. Where there is a will there is a way.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 20, 2016, 06:48:32 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.

If you need a triangle test to tell you whether you should try a new method you need you work ethic checked.

I tried the mini mash, didn't care for it.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:49:46 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.

Once again, THIS^^^^
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:50:09 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.

If you need a triangle test to tell you whether you should try a new method you need your work ethic checked.

Beg your pardon?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 06:51:03 PM
You have it all! and you can deoxygenate the water using the yeast method ahead of schedule for the brewday. Where there is a will there is a way.

I don't have a copperless system.  Can I deox the water a week or 2 ahead?
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 06:54:50 PM
You have it all! and you can deoxygenate the water using the yeast method ahead of schedule for the brewday. Where there is a will there is a way.

I don't have a copperless system.  Can I deox the water a week or 2 ahead?

BTB may serve to mitigate some of the effects of copper when used in the Boil (your main copper usage in assuming is the chiller) and you would only need a few hours for the yeast detox to do its thing. I'm assuming you have campden tabs (there's your NaMeta). I know you have a large enough cooler to no sparge. A mash cap could be fashioned simply enough, in fact I believe some members from both he AHA and GBF made nice looking rectangular cooler caps.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 07:15:44 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.

Once again, THIS^^^^

You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it! 

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 07:17:16 PM
BTB may serve to mitigate some of the effects of copper when used in the Boil (your main copper usage in assuming is the chiller) and you would only need a few hours for the yeast detox to do its thing. I'm assuming you have campden tabs (there's your NaMeta). I know you have a large enough cooler to no sparge. A mash cap could be fashioned simply enough, in fact I believe some members from both he AHA and GBF made nice looking rectangular cooler caps.

I hope this doesn't sound snarky because that's certainly not my intention, but I simply have too many other things to test that matter to me a lot more.  I may get to this someday, but it's not high on my list of how to spend my limited brewing time.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 07:18:30 PM
You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

Apples and oranges....different situations and needs.  If I wanted to be like a commercial brewery, I'd work in one.  But I don't.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 20, 2016, 07:18:53 PM
Here is the problem with you're assumption that it is only lab.  A lab can not tell you how things taste, now discerning what's causing the taste with certainty is the lab.  So put the rulers away boys.  If you want to make good beer at some point you have to taste it.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 07:22:27 PM
You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

Apples and oranges....different situations and needs.  If I wanted to be like a commercial brewery, I'd work in one.  But I don't.

So by that logic, why do you always want to see my data? Are you telling me that even if I showed you my data, you don't believe in data, so it wouldn't matter?
If I presented you with a 400+ page dissertation with gas chromatographic studies at the Weihenstephan, and sensory panel analysis, it wouldn't matter?

What matters is that I say it tastes better? But when I do that you ask for the data?
So why ask for my data?

......

I am thoroughly confused.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 20, 2016, 07:23:23 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.

Once again, THIS^^^^

You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

do you really think a homebrewer, (or hobbyist if they're not adhering to your method) making beer on what, a 5 gallon scale is comparable to a commercial brewery. C'mon man, that's just silly.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 07:23:26 PM
Here is the problem with you're assumption that it is only lab.  A lab can not tell you how things taste, now discerning what's causing the taste with certainty is the lab.  So put the rulers away boys.  If you want to make good beer at some point you have to taste it.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

If there was a palm to the forehead emoji this would be the textbook place to insert it.

I can't even fashion a response to this statement. Why would anyone work tirelessly to use an advanced method of brewing if the beer didn't taste good?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 07:25:00 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.

Once again, THIS^^^^

You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

do you really think a homebrewer, (or hobbyist if they're not adhering to your method) making beer on what, a 5 gallon scale is comparable to a commercial brewery. C'mon man, that's just silly.

That is literally the whole point of the method, and by that comment I see you have failed to read the instructions.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 20, 2016, 07:27:38 PM
lab results are nice, but sensory tests are what matter to me. I don't care what the lab says if the beer tastes good.

THIS^^^^

So you guys are telling me the reasons why beer tastes bad don't show up in lab results? Ummm?

if you need lab results to tell you your beer is good or if it sucks, then you probably should get your taste buds checked.

Once again, THIS^^^^

You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

do you really think a homebrewer, (or hobbyist if they're not adhering to your method) making beer on what, a 5 gallon scale is comparable to a commercial brewery. C'mon man, that's just silly.

That is literally the whole point of the method, and by that comment I see you have failed to read the instructions.

are we discussing the necessity of lab results as they pertain to sensory evaluation, or your method of brewing lagers?
Ever hear the saying you catch more flies with honey than vinegar? When you respond to people like this, it just makes everything else you say seem less credible. You shouldn't need to resort to this kind of behavior if your methods are sound.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 07:35:26 PM
You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

Apples and oranges....different situations and needs.  If I wanted to be like a commercial brewery, I'd work in one.  But I don't.

So by that logic, why do you always want to see my data? Are you telling me that even if I showed you my data, you don't believe in data, so it wouldn't matter?
If I presented you with a 400+ page dissertation with gas chromatographic studies at the Weihenstephan, and sensory panel analysis, it wouldn't matter?

What matters is that I say it tastes better? But when I do that you ask for the data?
So why ask for my data?

......

I am thoroughly confused.

What would matter to me would be seeing blind triangle tasting data on beers YOU made using the process YOU endorse. 
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 07:36:46 PM
Here is the problem with you're assumption that it is only lab.  A lab can not tell you how things taste, now discerning what's causing the taste with certainty is the lab.  So put the rulers away boys.  If you want to make good beer at some point you have to taste it.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

If there was a palm to the forehead emoji this would be the textbook place to insert it.

I can't even fashion a response to this statement. Why would anyone work tirelessly to use an advanced method of brewing if the beer didn't taste good?

did anyone say that?  We simply want evidence that the beer tastes better using this method.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 20, 2016, 07:40:57 PM
You have it all! and you can deoxygenate the water using the yeast method ahead of schedule for the brewday. Where there is a will there is a way.

I don't have a copperless system.  Can I deox the water a week or 2 ahead?

A mash cap could be fashioned simply enough, in fact I believe some members from both he AHA and GBF made nice looking rectangular cooler caps.

Any insight as to what material they might be using for this?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 20, 2016, 07:41:34 PM
A cookie sheet?

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 20, 2016, 07:42:33 PM
A cookie sheet?

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

I have looked at some of those, but I am not sure they will properly float, and finding one to fit a certain size cooler is a big PITA.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 07:43:56 PM
A cookie sheet?

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

I have looked at some of those, but I am not sure they will properly float, and finding one to fit a certain size cooler is a big PITA.

hard foam and tinfoil, or just tinfoil.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 20, 2016, 07:45:21 PM
Wouldn't the aluminum cause an issue or is that self corrected by the NaMeta

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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 07:47:15 PM
Wouldn't the aluminum cause an issue or is that self corrected by the NaMeta

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

What issue?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 20, 2016, 07:50:30 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.

This is something that they and we go through all the time...."you didn't do the experiment I would have done".  Take them for what they are.
It's the way it is. Publish these experiments and you will get criticism. Hopefully most is constructive and dialogue is kept open.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 07:52:09 PM
You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

Apples and oranges....different situations and needs.  If I wanted to be like a commercial brewery, I'd work in one.  But I don't.

So by that logic, why do you always want to see my data? Are you telling me that even if I showed you my data, you don't believe in data, so it wouldn't matter?
If I presented you with a 400+ page dissertation with gas chromatographic studies at the Weihenstephan, and sensory panel analysis, it wouldn't matter?

What matters is that I say it tastes better? But when I do that you ask for the data?
So why ask for my data?

......

I am thoroughly confused.

What would matter to me would be seeing blind triangle tasting data on beers YOU made using the process YOU endorse.

Sure out of 30 people tested 27 identified the correct beer( low oxygen). Of the 27 who guessed correctly 27 preferred the low oxygen. As it had fresher flavor, more hop and malt character. It was over much cleaner and easier drinking.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 20, 2016, 07:52:23 PM
Wouldn't the aluminum cause an issue or is that self corrected by the NaMeta

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What issue?

Copper, Brass and Aluminum can introduce potential for oxidation reactions.  Would aluminum foil/tinfoil cause issues as an oxidative reaction with the wort?  Or is that self corrected with sodium metabisulfite?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 07:55:53 PM
Wouldn't the aluminum cause an issue or is that self corrected by the NaMeta

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What issue?

Copper, Brass and Aluminum can introduce potential for oxidation reactions.  Would aluminum foil/tinfoil cause issues as an oxidative reaction with the wort?  Or is that self corrected with sodium metabisulfite?

Its more so copper and iron we worry about. At mash pH aluminum should not react with the wort. However, SMB should help with the reactions, while BTB can help here as well.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Philbrew on December 20, 2016, 07:57:45 PM
OK, moving on here.  I'm still trying to get my head around the low DO vs high DO caused by oxygenation at pitching.

 I you brought the lager wort down to pitching temp (46-50F ?), oxygenated to 8 ppm O2 and did not pitch the yeast, how long would it take for all the "it" flavors to be lost?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 08:01:15 PM
OK, moving on here.  I'm still trying to get my head around the low DO vs high DO caused by oxygenation at pitching.

 I you brought the lager wort down to pitching temp (46-50F ?), oxygenated to 8 ppm O2 and did not pitch the yeast, how long would it take for all the "it" flavors to be lost?

Any more than 12hrs, you will start to see decline, more than 24hrs "it" will be gone.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 20, 2016, 08:04:11 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.

This is something that they and we go through all the time...."you didn't do the experiment I would have done".  Take them for what they are.
It's the way it is. Publish these experiments and you will get criticism. Hopefully most is constructive and dialogue is kept open.

Indeed...we understand that and "expect" it.  Malcolm and Marsahll, along with Drew and I, have submitted a seminar proposal for next year to do a panel discussion about all this.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 20, 2016, 08:25:52 PM
I'll say that FWIW I tried the procedure using SMB and Brewtan in the mash, Brewtan also at its 15 mins left addition, no sparged, using a copper chiller to cool and foil as the cap. The time loss was in preboiling the full volume. I like the results enough to try again on lagers. No triangle test to offer at this time, but I was interested in trying to implement the concept, and my feeling is that it does offer room for incremental improvement to brewers who even do it this way. My plan is to gather people to do a triangle on the Dunkel I brew this week. Curious to see if the results back up my impression. People will not be led to any conclusion whatsoever.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 20, 2016, 08:32:13 PM
You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

Apples and oranges....different situations and needs.  If I wanted to be like a commercial brewery, I'd work in one.  But I don't.

So by that logic, why do you always want to see my data? Are you telling me that even if I showed you my data, you don't believe in data, so it wouldn't matter?
If I presented you with a 400+ page dissertation with gas chromatographic studies at the Weihenstephan, and sensory panel analysis, it wouldn't matter?

What matters is that I say it tastes better? But when I do that you ask for the data?
So why ask for my data?

......

I am thoroughly confused.

What would matter to me would be seeing blind triangle tasting data on beers YOU made using the process YOU endorse.

Sure out of 30 people tested 27 identified the correct beer( low oxygen). Of the 27 who guessed correctly 27 preferred the low oxygen. As it had fresher flavor, more hop and malt character. It was over much cleaner and easier drinking.

Bryan forgot to add the statistical analysis that was conducted. 27/30 correct tasters gives a p-value of 1.66e-10. In these circumstances 15 participants would have had to choose the Low Oxygen beer to achieve statistical significance (p < 0.05). The fact that they all preferred the flavor of the beer should be telling as well.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 08:40:47 PM
You guys should take this up with the breweries that have QA labs and tell them your money saving ideas. They would love it!

Apples and oranges....different situations and needs.  If I wanted to be like a commercial brewery, I'd work in one.  But I don't.

So by that logic, why do you always want to see my data? Are you telling me that even if I showed you my data, you don't believe in data, so it wouldn't matter?
If I presented you with a 400+ page dissertation with gas chromatographic studies at the Weihenstephan, and sensory panel analysis, it wouldn't matter?

What matters is that I say it tastes better? But when I do that you ask for the data?
So why ask for my data?

......

I am thoroughly confused.

What would matter to me would be seeing blind triangle tasting data on beers YOU made using the process YOU endorse.

Sure out of 30 people tested 27 identified the correct beer( low oxygen). Of the 27 who guessed correctly 27 preferred the low oxygen. As it had fresher flavor, more hop and malt character. It was over much cleaner and easier drinking.

Bryan forgot to add the statistical analysis that was conducted. 27/30 correct tasters gives a p-value of 1.66e-10. In these circumstances 15 participants would have had to choose the Low Oxygen beer to achieve statistical significance (p < 0.05). The fact that they all preferred the flavor of the beer should be telling as well.

Ahh, yes.. Thanks
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: roddog on December 20, 2016, 09:06:49 PM
Animated discussion indeed. Trying LODO on a north German pils in the morning.  Makes sense to me, let's see if it does something different than my usual process produces... 


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Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 20, 2016, 09:16:04 PM
I would say a little of both.
I know its hard to imagine, hell 3 years ago I would have said no way too. However, its hard to put into words what happens when you taste that pristine wort for the first time. It changes everything, and every ingredient now has a new and different flavor. I have spent a lot of time testing and trying everything I can and whittled it down to these techniques.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 20, 2016, 09:19:42 PM
BTB may serve to mitigate some of the effects of copper when used in the Boil (your main copper usage in assuming is the chiller) and you would only need a few hours for the yeast detox to do its thing. I'm assuming you have campden tabs (there's your NaMeta). I know you have a large enough cooler to no sparge. A mash cap could be fashioned simply enough, in fact I believe some members from both he AHA and GBF made nice looking rectangular cooler caps.

I hope this doesn't sound snarky because that's certainly not my intention, but I simply have too many other things to test that matter to me a lot more.  I may get to this someday, but it's not high on my list of how to spend my limited brewing time.

I don't mean this to sound snarky, either, but you all really need to stop arguing about this.

It sounds to me like two very different approaches to brewing.  Do what works for you.

I think there's some interesting and good info here and I'll try out some of the techniques next time I brew.

My brew time is probably more limited than yours, Denny, but what the heck.  I'll give it run.

Still not worth arguing about.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 20, 2016, 09:22:00 PM
I read the last 4 pages or so, as I was brewing a Heller Bock.  ;)

some comments.

Breweries that have QC/QA Labs with all of the analytical tools also have tasting panels. The Go/NoGo for the beer is the tasting panel. Bamforth has written how humans are >10 times as sensitive as the lab equipment.

Touring Bräuerie Schönram, the old gent leading our group had to be the retired brewer. When we in the fermentation area, he talked of how they use open fermentaion and skim the Braunhefe off of the Krauesen. He referenced a Weihenstephan study when they skimmed one beer and not the other. The beers were the same analytically as measured in the lab. The beer that had the Braunhefe removed was preferred by the tasters.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 20, 2016, 09:22:22 PM
Wow, this thread really go out of hand; 3 pages in the last 3 hours? Diggity daaaaayyyamn, son!

Evidence that the beer tastes better is as simple as trying it out, Denny. It does make for a better beer. And I can't believe you're still saying that after finding out for yourself that Brewtan B makes for a better finished product.
Yes, it's extra work, and yes, it's worth it. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Otherwise, we'd all still be brewing with extract. Progress with the process, man! This is just that next step to better beer.

But like I've repeated multiple times now - if you like what you're doing now, don't change a thing. But the push back is baffling me (among others). It's not like it's one guy saying it makes a difference.

Is it June of 2016 again? Feels warm in here...
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Stevie on December 20, 2016, 09:24:17 PM
You mentioning extract time vs all-grain time makes me feel lazy for not wanting to pre-boil.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 20, 2016, 09:26:27 PM
You mentioning extract time vs all-grain time makes me feel lazy for not wanting to pre-boil.
See what I mean??? We progressed with the process.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on December 20, 2016, 09:30:31 PM
I enjoy the brulosophy experiments, but I find at times the experiment designs are lacking.

This is something that they and we go through all the time...."you didn't do the experiment I would have done".  Take them for what they are.
It's the way it is. Publish these experiments and you will get criticism. Hopefully most is constructive and dialogue is kept open.
That's what happens in professional science research as well.  It's part of peer review.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on December 20, 2016, 09:38:25 PM
If I presented you with a 400+ page dissertation with gas chromatographic studies at the Weihenstephan, and sensory panel analysis, it wouldn't matter?
I'd love to read that!  That's been my deal this entire time.  Christmas break is coming up so I'll have some time on my hands.

Lab analysis and sensory analysis are equally important.  Most things in brewing can be explained by science (though not everything has yet) but beer is also largely subjective as it deals with human perception (some of which is explainable by science, who know, maybe all of it).
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 09:41:59 PM
If I presented you with a 400+ page dissertation with gas chromatographic studies at the Weihenstephan, and sensory panel analysis, it wouldn't matter?
I'd love to read that!  That's been my deal this entire time.  Christmas break is coming up so I'll have some time on my hands.

Lab analysis and sensory analysis are equally important.  Most things in brewing can be explained by science (though not everything has yet) but beer is also largely subjective as it deals with human perception (some of which is explainable by science, who know, maybe all of it).

I have been sitting on this for quite some time, but I recently got an email and it was attached that prompted me to finish translating it. It's effectively my "mic drop".

So ask and ye shall receive...

English:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Translated-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Translated-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf)

Original German:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Diss-German-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Diss-German-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 20, 2016, 09:50:52 PM
The barracuda filter will not let me read it.  Damn the IT department!!
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on December 20, 2016, 09:52:53 PM
Bryan forgot to add the statistical analysis that was conducted. 27/30 correct tasters gives a p-value of 1.66e-10. In these circumstances 15 participants would have had to choose the Low Oxygen beer to achieve statistical significance (p < 0.05). The fact that they all preferred the flavor of the beer should be telling as well.
I'm not trying to argue here just want to make a point.  Unless that exact experiment has been repeated multiple times the 27/30 could be an anomaly, correct?  Wouldn't the exact same experiment on the exact same system need to be done repeatedly?  Maybe I'm missing something as its been a while since my last statics class.

This is also an issue with Marshall's XBMTs and Denny and Drew's IGORs.  The experiment is only done once and on different systems.  It won't stop me from reading Brulosophy, Listening to Experimental Brewing or reading GBF.  All of your experiences raise some good questions and are educational even if they don't result in scientific theory.

EDIT:  I realize we (and actual scientists) are not trying to generate scientific theories just reasonable conclusions.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bboy9000 on December 20, 2016, 09:54:44 PM
Love the mic drop Bryan.  I'll be reading it by this weekend.  Gotta get final grades in and finish moving.  Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 20, 2016, 10:16:31 PM
Then beer and reading will be my night.  Thank you for posting.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Phil_M on December 20, 2016, 10:40:49 PM
Whenever I leave the forum for a few days, this thread always blows up...


Anyway, I hope that sometime in the next few months to be able to try a low O2 pale lager. Plan is to keep my (copper in part) plate chiller, and use brew tan B to try and mitigate the expected effects.

All this is dependent on being able to revise my brewing methods, which in my case is going to require a new brewing stand of some sort.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 20, 2016, 10:53:14 PM
Great info presented. Just hit the high notes, gonna read it more thoroughly.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 20, 2016, 11:16:54 PM
If I presented you with a 400+ page dissertation with gas chromatographic studies at the Weihenstephan, and sensory panel analysis, it wouldn't matter?
I'd love to read that!  That's been my deal this entire time.  Christmas break is coming up so I'll have some time on my hands.

Lab analysis and sensory analysis are equally important.  Most things in brewing can be explained by science (though not everything has yet) but beer is also largely subjective as it deals with human perception (some of which is explainable by science, who know, maybe all of it).

I have been sitting on this for quite some time, but I recently got an email and it was attached that prompted me to finish translating it. It's effectively my "mic drop".

So ask and ye shall receive...

English:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Translated-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Translated-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf)

Original German:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Diss-German-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Antioxidants-and-Flavor-Stability-Diss-German-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf)

any reason why the links are being blocked?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Phil_M on December 20, 2016, 11:18:18 PM
Works for me, links straight to a .pdf though, some filters might not like that.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 20, 2016, 11:18:47 PM
Bryan forgot to add the statistical analysis that was conducted. 27/30 correct tasters gives a p-value of 1.66e-10. In these circumstances 15 participants would have had to choose the Low Oxygen beer to achieve statistical significance (p < 0.05). The fact that they all preferred the flavor of the beer should be telling as well.
I'm not trying to argue here just want to make a point.  Unless that exact experiment has been repeated multiple times the 27/30 could be an anomaly, correct?  Wouldn't the exact same experiment on the exact same system need to be done repeatedly?  Maybe I'm missing something as its been a while since my last statics class.

This is also an issue with Marshall's XBMTs and Denny and Drew's IGORs.  The experiment is only done once and on different systems.  It won't stop me from reading Brulosophy, Listening to Experimental Brewing or reading GBF.  All of your experiences raise some good questions and are educational even if they don't result in scientific theory.

EDIT:  I realize we (and actual scientists) are not trying to generate scientific theories just reasonable conclusions.

I'm actually glad you brought this up. As I knew this would come under much scrutiny, I actually tested this on 4 different occasions. Using the beer from these photos http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/what-does-oxidation-look-like/ (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/what-does-oxidation-look-like/)
I carried out 2 of the blind triangles, the one listed above and this one I will detail now. I conducted this test with actual BJCP judges and people who compete(and medal quite a bit), so I would call them not just regular ole beer drinkers as with the first one. There was 8 people in this testing and they were able to score 100% on the odd beer out ( Low oxygen in this case) and all preferred the low oxygen sample.

Another beer was made, in the same ways as listed above only this was a dry hopped pale ale. A little bit different format for this test, but I think it still has some valid data points.

Our annual parade party, there were roughly 40 people in this sample. The beer was served via the keg, and red solo cups were used. This was a self serve test. Testers were not aware this was a test, I simply told them they are two pale ales, and they can drink whichever one they want. The low oxygen keg kicked first, upon lifting the other keg, I would guess there was ~2 gallons left in the normal keg. So this was a peoples choice type of test.

The same pale ale's were made again for a family's wedding ceremony. There were about 150 guests, my beer was the only tap beer( 2 pale ales and an Oktoberfest), but run of the mill BMC was available as well. Since this was a barn venue, and a family friend as the bar tender, I told him to tell people there were 2 pale ales on tap and have the people get a quick sample of both, then have them chose what they wanted. Again people were not aware of a test, picked it solely on taste preference. The low oxygen pale ale keg kicked in 20 minutes during the reception, with the normal pale ale keg kicking 40 minutes after. An aside is that I got called on stage and thanked for the oktoberfest from the drummer, he said he had just got back from Germany, and my oktoberfest was exactly like the ones he had over there( go figure), and that Oktobefest was his favorite beer. So that was cool! But I digress.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 20, 2016, 11:25:31 PM
I don't mean this to sound snarky, either, but you all really need to stop arguing about this.

It sounds to me like two very different approaches to brewing.  Do what works for you.

I think there's some interesting and good info here

Still not worth arguing about.


Yes, it's extra work, and yes, it's worth it. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Otherwise, we'd all still be brewing with extract.



^^^^ All of this.  I don't give a damn who brews how, why, when or where. Healthy debate is great but we're hitting diminishing returns with some of this. This is the best time to homebrew ever, and that's because of the availability of a lot of really, really good info at a key stroke. We can all sift through it to find our own way.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 21, 2016, 12:04:03 AM
any reason why the links are being blocked?


The English version downloaded fine for me. Took a minute or two, it's long.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: denny on December 21, 2016, 12:19:53 AM
BTB may serve to mitigate some of the effects of copper when used in the Boil (your main copper usage in assuming is the chiller) and you would only need a few hours for the yeast detox to do its thing. I'm assuming you have campden tabs (there's your NaMeta). I know you have a large enough cooler to no sparge. A mash cap could be fashioned simply enough, in fact I believe some members from both he AHA and GBF made nice looking rectangular cooler caps.

I hope this doesn't sound snarky because that's certainly not my intention, but I simply have too many other things to test that matter to me a lot more.  I may get to this someday, but it's not high on my list of how to spend my limited brewing time.

I don't mean this to sound snarky, either, but you all really need to stop arguing about this.

It sounds to me like two very different approaches to brewing.  Do what works for you.

I think there's some interesting and good info here and I'll try out some of the techniques next time I brew.

My brew time is probably more limited than yours, Denny, but what the heck.  I'll give it run.

Still not worth arguing about.

I've been trying to keep this in the realm of a discussion, not an arguement.  I apologize if I haven't been successful.  And believe me, iif I had time I'd try it.  But I smply don't.  If you have less time to brew than I do, you must never brew!  :)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 21, 2016, 12:21:22 AM
any reason why the links are being blocked?


The English version downloaded fine for me. Took a minute or two, it's long.

its being blocked by my spam filter.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 21, 2016, 12:22:14 AM
Debate is good,writing people off because they do not adhere to your brewing principles is not in my opinion.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 21, 2016, 12:22:54 AM
I've been trying to keep this in the realm of a discussion, not an arguement.  I apologize if I haven't been successful.  And believe me, iif I had time I'd try it.  But I smply don't.  If you have less time to brew than I do, you must never brew!  :)

Not directed solely at you.  Sorry!

Also, I haven't brewed since I brewed two batches for the Brew United competition sometime prior to Halloween...   Maybe even September.  The kids keep me crazy busy.  But I have plans!!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 21, 2016, 12:25:36 AM
A cookie sheet?

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

I have looked at some of those, but I am not sure they will properly float, and finding one to fit a certain size cooler is a big PITA.

hard foam and tinfoil, or just tinfoil.

Aha. Good thinking. Thanks for the tip.

If I do choose this route, should BTB be added as well to mitigate any potential oxidative effects from the foil, or is this just not really a big concern?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 12:30:58 AM
Debate is good,writing people off because they do not adhere to your brewing principles is not in my opinion.

So then you just hang around and try to instigate arguments, trying to push your point of view?  ;)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 12:31:56 AM
A cookie sheet?

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

I have looked at some of those, but I am not sure they will properly float, and finding one to fit a certain size cooler is a big PITA.

hard foam and tinfoil, or just tinfoil.

Aha. Good thinking. Thanks for the tip.

If I do choose this route, should BTB be added as well to mitigate any potential oxidative effects from the foil, or is this just not really a big concern?

Sure add the BTB, it doesn't hurt.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 21, 2016, 12:32:08 AM
Debate is good,writing people off because they do not adhere to your brewing principles is not in my opinion.

Can't stress this enough: not OUR principles.  These are the methods and brewing science practices of professional brewing scientists.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 21, 2016, 12:33:35 AM
Debate is good,writing people off because they do not adhere to your brewing principles is not in my opinion.

So then you just hang around and try to instigate arguments, trying to push your point of view?  ;)

I'm here just like everyone else, trying to become a better brewer. you seem to be the one that has trouble with opposing view points.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 21, 2016, 12:43:03 AM
Debate is good,writing people off because they do not adhere to your brewing principles is not in my opinion.

Can't stress this enough: not OUR principles.  These are the methods and brewing science practices of professional brewing scientists.

*some professional brewing scientists that are brewing a certain style of beer.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 12:45:40 AM
Debate is good,writing people off because they do not adhere to your brewing principles is not in my opinion.

So then you just hang around and try to instigate arguments, trying to push your point of view?  ;)

I'm here just like everyone else, trying to become a better brewer. you seem to be the one that has trouble with opposing view points.


Yup you are totally right I am the problem here.  I don't have 40some pages in the this thread helping people understand and implement this. So here is what I am going to do to fix this. I will not respond to you unless you have a valid question or concern. I realize this is going to upset you and you are probably going to make some shot towards me,  but that's ok I am an adult and can move on.  I think that's what's needed to get past this. It's not you, it's me.  ;D
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: bayareabrewer on December 21, 2016, 12:55:57 AM
do what you gotta do to get by my friend.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 21, 2016, 02:01:43 AM
I enjoy this thread. I've enjoyed seeing it grow into what it is: a place where people can come and ask questions openly and without hesitation about Low Oxygen brewing.

Let's recap here for some perspective:

Those of you who remember when I went by the handle RPIScotty know that I was very much opposed to the whole Low Oxygen thing. I got over it as you can tell now.

Early response to the paper involved critiques about how involved the process was and questions on whether it was even plausible. I think we are past that now.

Make no mistake about it: LOB.com was created for each and every Brewer that comes to this forum should you decide to take the material to heart. We put it together on our own time for you! We worked for nearly 7 months on the Low Oxygen spreadsheet so that people would have a software to use so that they didn't have to make any compromises.

This thread is here for ANYONE to ask questions about the process.

You needed a review of the process without the science-y gobbledygook? DONE.

You need some sort of "meet me halfway" stepwise implementation? DONE.

You need a spreadsheet that accounts for all the variables of Low Oxygen? DONE.

You want individual posts on each part of the process? DONE.

You want a plethora of invaluable brewing resources at your fingertips whenever and wherever? DONE.

You want formal and informal sensory analysis so that you know it's not all unicorns and leprechauns? DONE!!!

We got you! If you don't have the time right now, don't worry. The info isn't going anywhere and we aren't charging for it.

It's there for you when you need it. This whole thread, the website, the spreadsheet, etc. was created to present these methods in the most easily digestible and implementable way possible because everyone should have the information to be able to make the best beer they can.

Bryan's motto is simple: "I want to make the best beer humanly possible."

Let's get on with it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: klickitat jim on December 21, 2016, 12:20:30 PM
Wow I missed a bunch being gone since July.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: brewinhard on December 21, 2016, 01:53:27 PM
Well said Derrick.

Take it or leave it. Lets get back to the questions so we can all improve.

Cheers everyone!
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 21, 2016, 01:55:24 PM
Well said Derek ().

Take it or leave it. Lets get back to the questions so we can all improve.

Cheers everyone!

The whole goal is for it to be a resource. We have no issues if you leave it, just don't knock it unless you try it!

Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dannyjed on December 21, 2016, 02:07:32 PM
My question is does this Low Oxygen Brewing need to be an all in approach or nothing? It seems like at any time during brewing, fermenting, and packaging that Oxygen can come in and negate the LODO. I would try it, but I don't want to buy a DO meter and check for O at every stage in the game. I would like to sparge and not use all the water in the mash. I also like force carbonating my beers and I don't want to use a spunding valve. So, would it be waste of time to simply pre boil the water, add SMB, BrewTan B, and a foil mash cap?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 21, 2016, 02:14:05 PM
Well said Derek ().

Take it or leave it. Lets get back to the questions so we can all improve.

Cheers everyone!

The whole goal is for it to be a resource. We have no issues if you leave it, just don't knock it unless you try it!




That's where I'm a little perplexed. Info was presented, and as far as I can tell, there's no court order requiring anyone to use it. Use it or don't! It's shades of Mark/S.Cerv all over again. And if I recall correctly, people eventually mostly agreed that his technique worked well.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 21, 2016, 02:22:29 PM
My question is does this Low Oxygen Brewing need to be an all in approach or nothing? It seems like at any time during brewing, fermenting, and packaging that Oxygen can come in and negate the LODO. I would try it, but I don't want to buy a DO meter and check for O at every stage in the game. I would like to sparge and not use all the water in the mash. I also like force carbonating my beers and I don't want to use a spunding valve. So, would it be waste of time to simply pre boil the water, add SMB, BrewTan B, and a foil mash cap?
No that wouldn't be a waste at all. Just siphon (or drain with a hose from a ball valve) your water on top of your grains and stir gently to break up dough balls. It's what I do. There's no need to fret, it's incremental improvement. You will see improvements with every step you make to limit oxygen, preboiling and SMB/BtB being the biggest improvements you can make. And I also use foil for a cap, very easy to use and mold to the mashtun, especially since I use a rectangular cooler.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 21, 2016, 02:35:59 PM
My question is does this Low Oxygen Brewing need to be an all in approach or nothing? It seems like at any time during brewing, fermenting, and packaging that Oxygen can come in and negate the LODO. I would try it, but I don't want to buy a DO meter and check for O at every stage in the game. I would like to sparge and not use all the water in the mash. I also like force carbonating my beers and I don't want to use a spunding valve. So, would it be waste of time to simply pre boil the water, add SMB, BrewTan B, and a foil mash cap?
No that wouldn't be a waste at all. Just siphon (or drain with a hose from a ball valve) your water on top of your grains and stir gently to break up dough balls. It's what I do. There's no need to fret, it's incremental improvement. You will see improvements with every step you make to limit oxygen, preboiling and SMB/BtB being the biggest improvements you can make. And I also use foil for a cap, very easy to use and mold to the mashtun, especially since I use a rectangular cooler.


I agree. As I posted, I siphoned water to the cooler, used a copper IC, and a foil mash cap. Made a great APA. Incremental improvement is possible.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: klickitat jim on December 21, 2016, 02:37:02 PM
Well said Derek ().

Take it or leave it. Lets get back to the questions so we can all improve.

Cheers everyone!

The whole goal is for it to be a resource. We have no issues if you leave it, just don't knock it unless you try it!




That's where I'm a little perplexed. Info was presented, and as far as I can tell, there's no court order requiring anyone to use it. Use it or don't! It's shades of Mark/S.Cerv all over again. And if I recall correctly, people eventually mostly agreed that his technique worked well.
I sure think mark's method works. But it's totally no skin off my teeth if someone, or even everyone, thinks it doesn't.

From what I'm gathering, the grumble issue might be like this. To do LODO brewing use this list of methods. Then a brewer tries a few of the methods and cries foul. It didn't work, so it's bad. Or doesn't try it because whatever reason, and cries foul... it doesn't work.

I am about 99% sure I won't try it. I assume it works. It's just not a result that I personally am interested in enough to do the work. But I think it's awesome that these guys are so passionate about the search for "it" that they did all this study and work, and then share it with everyone freely. That's pretty cool.

Or am I talking out my butt again?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 21, 2016, 02:45:30 PM
Or am I talking out my butt again?


Nope, not at all.  :)
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 02:51:53 PM
My question is does this Low Oxygen Brewing need to be an all in approach or nothing? It seems like at any time during brewing, fermenting, and packaging that Oxygen can come in and negate the LODO. I would try it, but I don't want to buy a DO meter and check for O at every stage in the game. I would like to sparge and not use all the water in the mash. I also like force carbonating my beers and I don't want to use a spunding valve. So, would it be waste of time to simply pre boil the water, add SMB, BrewTan B, and a foil mash cap?

No, but here is whats going to happen..
A play by play as it were... You are going to do all the things on the hot side to mitigate and you are going to end up with this delicious beer out of the fermenter. You will then force carb it, and before your eyes, watch it turn into a normal beer, in about 1-4 weeks. Then you will kick yourself for not spunding it.  ;D

No its all good, creating the nice beer is the first step, thats the biggest hurdle for people. Once you create it then you will fight like hell to keep it. It won't all happen overnight, everyone will soon see what I am talking about..Good luck.

I was reading though some other forums today.. and here are some excerpts

"Quote:
Originally Posted by trav77 
This is what I'm asking. So are we talking instant loss of flavour or "might start to drop off in 2 months" loss of flavour?
Depending on your pick up from 1 week to 4 weeks probably."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by rabeb25 
Depending on your pick up from 1 week to 4 weeks probably.

I don't spund and this sounds about right. I made a Helles that was amazing for the first 3-4 weeks. Full of fresh grain and honey sweetness. After that it lost its magic. Still decent but lifeless in comparison. Other styles do much better but it was really noticeable in the Helles."

"I don't put a spund valve on my serving kegs - I just close them up and let them finish fermenting. I'll hook up the spund valve to them every so often (which has a pressure gauge), and if it's too high i'll burp them. Low tech but very simple.

I will never not keg condition a beer again. The two LoDOs that i had to do this to due to timing have been phenomenal."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by techbrau
LoDO is pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?
Actually it kinda pisses me off - it adds a lot of work to my brew day over my previous process. I was really trying to simplify and shorten my brew day, but no more!

The beer produced by this process is amazing. No turning back."


So, the revolution is coming.. I have many forums with 40+ pages of success stories. Fun to watch it.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 02:57:38 PM
Well said Derek ().

Take it or leave it. Lets get back to the questions so we can all improve.

Cheers everyone!

The whole goal is for it to be a resource. We have no issues if you leave it, just don't knock it unless you try it!




That's where I'm a little perplexed. Info was presented, and as far as I can tell, there's no court order requiring anyone to use it. Use it or don't! It's shades of Mark/S.Cerv all over again. And if I recall correctly, people eventually mostly agreed that his technique worked well.
I sure think mark's method works. But it's totally no skin off my teeth if someone, or even everyone, thinks it doesn't.

From what I'm gathering, the grumble issue might be like this. To do LODO brewing use this list of methods. Then a brewer tries a few of the methods and cries foul. It didn't work, so it's bad. Or doesn't try it because whatever reason, and cries foul... it doesn't work.

I am about 99% sure I won't try it. I assume it works. It's just not a result that I personally am interested in enough to do the work. But I think it's awesome that these guys are so passionate about the search for "it" that they did all this study and work, and then share it with everyone freely. That's pretty cool.

Or am I talking out my butt again?

No, you are not, but I think you are saying what I see so common, is that people think its so many added steps... but when you break it down, its really, really simple.

Preboil/degas brewing water (this is really the only ADDED step to brewday.)
add SMB, dough in and mash as normal use foil to cover the mash tightly at the liquid level
boil as normal, but much gentler
ferment as normal if ale, if lager ferment and don't ramp it
Transfer to keg when at about 4 points from final gravity

I don't see how that is so many extra steps...Are there tweaks to maximize the process? Of course, its the same as anything. But at the core its ridiculously simple.
Title: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: Big Monk on December 21, 2016, 02:59:45 PM
Can you tell the other guys about Low Oxygen in non-Lager styles Bryan?

I think it's important for people to know that this isn't just a Lager thing. I know your House Pale Ale is one you brew often but you brew lots of beer (ales) for other people and your insights on the subject may take the discussion out of the Lager "niche" it's being stuffed in (not a slam against anyone thinking it's just a Lager thing).


Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 03:07:37 PM
Can you tell the other guys about Low Oxygen in non-Lager styles Bryan?

I think it's important for people to know that this isn't just a Lager thing. I know your House Pale Ale is one you brew often but you brew lots of beer (ales) for other people and your insights on the subject may take the discussion out of the Lager "niche" it's being stuffed in (not a slam against anyone thinking it's just a Lager thing).

Much like folks on here brewing Low oxygen Belgians, any and all beer benefits from this method. Sure primarily all my beers are lagers, but I brew a decent amount of ales as well, primarily pale ale. The low oxygen brings a whole new dimension to hops, and soft malt profiles. A house pale ale, or recipe you know well is a prime candidate for the test. You will most likely see improvements immediately. The other thing I always see if people saying hop aroma fades so fast. Hop aroma only fades when oxidation is present. I have a keg of 9 month old pale in my fridge right now. Its as fresh as the day it was dry-hopped. It was at .06ppm when tested. I am actually keeping it around to purposely see how long it will go.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on December 21, 2016, 03:08:46 PM
Transfer to keg when at about 4 points from final gravity

What would be the best practice for ales and people who don't have the equipment to spund?
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 03:11:28 PM
Transfer to keg when at about 4 points from final gravity

What would be the best practice for ales and people who don't have the equipment to spund?

My argument would be to buy and piece together 1 spunding valve, it will likely only cost you $20. But if you are vehemently against it. 4 points from gravity with just about perfect for 2.4vols of carbonation. We have a calculator but in to our spreadsheet that can tell you exactly when to spund for the carbonation you want.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 21, 2016, 03:12:40 PM
Transfer to keg when at about 4 points from final gravity

What would be the best practice for ales and people who don't have the equipment to spund?
I keep a close eye on fermentation, when I see the bubbles start to slow it's probably getting close to being time to transfer. For lagers it's about 7 or 8 days, for ales it's more like 4 or 5 days (for me). I don't have a spunding valve either, just close it up, seal like normal and let sit for another week before putting in the kegerator.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebriscoe on December 21, 2016, 03:12:47 PM
Low o2 mashing improves every beer that uses malt, hands down.  Doesn't matter if it's lager, ale, hoppy or malty. Some styles show it more than others, but all are improved.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: homoeccentricus on December 21, 2016, 03:17:59 PM
just close it up, seal like normal.

What if you only have plastic fermentation vessels? Is there a better way?  Not asking for myself, I have a spunding valve, but for the brew club, which is going to buy some cheapish material.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 03:20:28 PM
just close it up, seal like normal.

What if you only have plastic fermentation vessels? Is there a better way?  Not asking for myself, I have a spunding valve, but for the brew club, which is going to buy some cheapish material.

You would need to be spunding in the keg/bottle. I don't have a pressure capable fermenter either.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebriscoe on December 21, 2016, 03:24:56 PM
Transfer to keg when at about 4 points from final gravity

What would be the best practice for ales and people who don't have the equipment to spund?
I keep a close eye on fermentation, when I see the bubbles start to slow it's probably getting close to being time to transfer. For lagers it's about 7 or 8 days, for ales it's more like 4 or 5 days (for me). I don't have a spunding valve either, just close it up, seal like normal and let sit for another week before putting in the kegerator.
I have had good luck catching it right at fg and priming the keg and keg conditioning. Keeps a bit more yeast out of the keg.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 03:30:30 PM
Transfer to keg when at about 4 points from final gravity

What would be the best practice for ales and people who don't have the equipment to spund?
I keep a close eye on fermentation, when I see the bubbles start to slow it's probably getting close to being time to transfer. For lagers it's about 7 or 8 days, for ales it's more like 4 or 5 days (for me). I don't have a spunding valve either, just close it up, seal like normal and let sit for another week before putting in the kegerator.
I have had good luck catching it right at fg and priming the keg and keg conditioning. Keeps a bit more yeast out of the keg.

For sure that will work, I noticed however a flavor hit when doing it (I currently have like 3 on tap like this), and when comparing them side by side to their counterparts, there is a small cidery flavor present. I don't mean this to stop anyone either, just a heads up.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dilluh98 on December 21, 2016, 03:32:24 PM
Well said Derek ().

Take it or leave it. Lets get back to the questions so we can all improve.

Cheers everyone!

The whole goal is for it to be a resource. We have no issues if you leave it, just don't knock it unless you try it!




That's where I'm a little perplexed. Info was presented, and as far as I can tell, there's no court order requiring anyone to use it. Use it or don't! It's shades of Mark/S.Cerv all over again. And if I recall correctly, people eventually mostly agreed that his technique worked well.

Yup. My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: dannyjed on December 21, 2016, 03:37:31 PM
My question is does this Low Oxygen Brewing need to be an all in approach or nothing? It seems like at any time during brewing, fermenting, and packaging that Oxygen can come in and negate the LODO. I would try it, but I don't want to buy a DO meter and check for O at every stage in the game. I would like to sparge and not use all the water in the mash. I also like force carbonating my beers and I don't want to use a spunding valve. So, would it be waste of time to simply pre boil the water, add SMB, BrewTan B, and a foil mash cap?

No, but here is whats going to happen..
A play by play as it were... You are going to do all the things on the hot side to mitigate and you are going to end up with this delicious beer out of the fermenter. You will then force carb it, and before your eyes, watch it turn into a normal beer, in about 1-4 weeks. Then you will kick yourself for not spunding it.  ;D

No its all good, creating the nice beer is the first step, thats the biggest hurdle for people. Once you create it then you will fight like hell to keep it. It won't all happen overnight, everyone will soon see what I am talking about..Good luck.

I was reading though some other forums today.. and here are some excerpts

"Quote:
Originally Posted by trav77 
This is what I'm asking. So are we talking instant loss of flavour or "might start to drop off in 2 months" loss of flavour?
Depending on your pick up from 1 week to 4 weeks probably."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by rabeb25 
Depending on your pick up from 1 week to 4 weeks probably.

I don't spund and this sounds about right. I made a Helles that was amazing for the first 3-4 weeks. Full of fresh grain and honey sweetness. After that it lost its magic. Still decent but lifeless in comparison. Other styles do much better but it was really noticeable in the Helles."

"I don't put a spund valve on my serving kegs - I just close them up and let them finish fermenting. I'll hook up the spund valve to them every so often (which has a pressure gauge), and if it's too high i'll burp them. Low tech but very simple.

I will never not keg condition a beer again. The two LoDOs that i had to do this to due to timing have been phenomenal."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by techbrau
LoDO is pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?
Actually it kinda pisses me off - it adds a lot of work to my brew day over my previous process. I was really trying to simplify and shorten my brew day, but no more!

The beer produced by this process is amazing. No turning back."


So, the revolution is coming.. I have many forums with 40+ pages of success stories. Fun to watch it.
Thanks for the response. This does seem after reading your reply that there should be an all in approach all the way through packaging. I don't want to take extra steps and have worse tasting beer after a week in the keg. This is what has me reluctant to give it a go for now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: natebriscoe on December 21, 2016, 03:38:31 PM
Transfer to keg when at about 4 points from final gravity

What would be the best practice for ales and people who don't have the equipment to spund?
I keep a close eye on fermentation, when I see the bubbles start to slow it's probably getting close to being time to transfer. For lagers it's about 7 or 8 days, for ales it's more like 4 or 5 days (for me). I don't have a spunding valve either, just close it up, seal like normal and let sit for another week before putting in the kegerator.
I have had good luck catching it right at fg and priming the keg and keg conditioning. Keeps a bit more yeast out of the keg.

For sure that will work, I noticed however a flavor hit when doing it (I currently have like 3 on tap like this), and when comparing them side by side to their counterparts, there is a small cidery flavor present. I don't mean this to stop anyone either, just a heads up.
I will agree that spunding is the best option. But for the person not ready to jump into that, keg priming is a good option. Have not noticed a cider flavor in mine, but most have been big flavored ales.
Title: Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
Post by: beersk on December 21, 2016, 03:41:25 PM