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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: bierview on October 26, 2016, 03:56:22 PM

Title: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: bierview on October 26, 2016, 03:56:22 PM
Is it possible to make a no rinse sterilizing solution using bleach and water if the proper percentages are mixed?  If so, what are they?

BV
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: denny on October 26, 2016, 04:03:00 PM
Sterilizer, no.  Sanitizer, yes, I think so.
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: a10t2 on October 26, 2016, 04:14:09 PM
Yes, provided it's acidified slightly. 0.1% bleach and 0.1% white vinegar is an effective no rinse sanitizer. "No rinse" isn't the same as "flavor neutral" though; bleach or chlorine dioxide has to be thoroughly drained before the vessel can be used. Charlie Talley from 5 Star discussed this on one of the very first Basic Brewing Radio podcasts, many moons ago.
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: Big Monk on October 26, 2016, 04:14:42 PM
There is an excellent Basic Brewing podcast on this exact topic.

03-29-07 w/ Charlie Talley of Five Star
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 26, 2016, 04:45:11 PM
Sterilizer, no.  Sanitizer, yes, I think so.

That's not accurate.  Peracetic acid is a no rinse sterilizer. You can amazon it, or make peroxycetic acid (essentially the same thing) which is 125ml of Hydrogen peroxide 3% and 75ml of distilled white vinegar 5%.  pretty standard, just mix and pour, splash around, then dump out.  Now you can not use it on metal because it is corrosive, however your glass/plastics are all good to go.  I have a full 2qt jug of the stuff and it lasts for months.
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: a10t2 on October 26, 2016, 05:35:58 PM
Now you can not use it on metal because it is corrosive, however your glass/plastics are all good to go.

Properly diluted PAA is just fine for use on stainless; breweries do it every day. I doubt that it would meet FDA standards for a sterilant though. In fact I'm pretty sure the only "no rinse" sterilants that meet FDA criteria are wet and dry heat.
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: Stevie on October 26, 2016, 05:39:02 PM
Sanitized and sterilized are not the same thing.

Sterilized is lack of microorganisms, sanitized allows some to remain. Sterilized = 100%, sanitized < 100%
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: Kochhandwerk on October 26, 2016, 05:49:35 PM
Is there any good reason to not just use Star-San?  I am a bit wasteful but I know plenty of people who spend practically nothing because they use distilled or R/O water and reuse the sanitizer pretty much indefinitely.
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: Slowbrew on October 26, 2016, 05:57:22 PM
Is there any good reason to not just use Star-San?  I am a bit wasteful but I know plenty of people who spend practically nothing because they use distilled or R/O water and reuse the sanitizer pretty much indefinitely.

I do this with distilled water.  I can tell you that "pretty much indefinitely" is over stating it though.  Six months is about the limit before it really doesn't work anymore.  Looks fine and acts normal but isn't nearly as effective after that.

I pushed it a bit this and lost one beer due to a nasty infection.  Plus, every year I use the last of my bucket-o-starsan to soak my IC just before throwing out the solution.  This year I think it promoted the growth of whatever was on the coils.  It got nasty.  I mixed up a batch with tap water to soak off the grey/black crude before I start up again this Saturday.

Paul
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: a10t2 on October 26, 2016, 05:57:51 PM
Is there any good reason to not just use Star-San?

There are sanitizers that are marginally more effective, but 99.99% of the time, it works every time. If you're planning on storing it you can use cheap test strips to verify the pH is <3.
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 26, 2016, 06:05:29 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/Disinfection_Sterilization/13_06PeraceticAcidSterilization.html

I share this a lot, I should keep the link on my desktop
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 26, 2016, 06:07:24 PM
Now you can not use it on metal because it is corrosive, however your glass/plastics are all good to go.

Properly diluted PAA is just fine for use on stainless; breweries do it every day. I doubt that it would meet FDA standards for a sterilant though. In fact I'm pretty sure the only "no rinse" sterilants that meet FDA criteria are wet and dry heat.

But peroxyacetic acid will dissolve metals... safe on your skin, for a little while, but will eat through 302 steel.  eventually anyway.
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: a10t2 on October 26, 2016, 06:38:30 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/Disinfection_Sterilization/13_06PeraceticAcidSterilization.html

I share this a lot, I should keep the link on my desktop

Note that their protocol uses 2000 ppm PAA and requires a rinse, as opposed to 150 ppm for no-rinse, non-sterile brewery applications. http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PeroxyacedicAcidTech1.pdf
Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 26, 2016, 06:48:57 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/Disinfection_Sterilization/13_06PeraceticAcidSterilization.html

I share this a lot, I should keep the link on my desktop

Note that their protocol uses 2000 ppm PAA and requires a rinse, as opposed to 150 ppm for no-rinse, non-sterile brewery applications. http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PeroxyacedicAcidTech1.pdf
Note that it says 5 min contact time at 100ppm...

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Title: Re: Making a no rinse sterilizer
Post by: a10t2 on October 26, 2016, 06:56:20 PM
Note that it says 5 min contact time at 100ppm...

And that protocol is non-sterile, thought it's plenty sanitary for food/beverage applications.