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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: The Beerery on October 27, 2016, 02:42:13 PM

Title: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on October 27, 2016, 02:42:13 PM
I had some recent discussions with some folks over some VERY fresh Bavarian samples. There were flavors in these beers that I could not replicate exactly, however I had some batches that had hints of it. Looking back though notes, I noticed the high pH of my Barke malts, and how I had to use more acid malt than normal. I then had a revelation after reading Kunze for the nth time.. Acid malt=Lacto, Lacto= flavors I was tasting, more lacto=more flavor... Enter Sauergut.

I am not really one to tip toe around a subject so I jumped right in. I did a 2l low oxygen Minimash of pima, did not boil. I then inoculated that with 8oz of fresh pima Purged with co2 and set it in the Fermentation fridge at 48c for 5 days :
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14695524_793106410831961_4390121580979290595_n.jpg?oh=123b33ca94c982952ee79084242b8aaf&oe=58A7213D)

In the meantime.. I used an old dorm fridge I had, equipped it with a hair dryer, and temperature controller.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14611128_793102397499029_2509547006977711861_n.jpg?oh=82027c968e5a64ac08edf52a07dd8efc&oe=58A4E2E1)

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14563341_793102374165698_7726490140390458461_n.jpg?oh=20fdf32429a61bca903c7f876fd64cd1&oe=58A4DF76)


On day 5 I brewed a full scale batch using the SG as the mash acid. I had observed at pH drop to around 3.5, guesstimated acid % and added about 1l. Hit  a 5.26 mash ph, and did a standard Kunze mash. I then cooled that mash to 48c using my herms coil and cold water in the HLT. I acidified the mash with the remaining 1l, and ran that off into a purged keg, and placed it into the reactor at 48c.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14731358_793102394165696_2612155945207127765_n.jpg?oh=b31fe90b94bdaebd4b935f582464d614&oe=58AE1B6B)

It then sat in the reactor for 5 more days until the next brew. I pulled a sample:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14671250_793102350832367_6573302618636274837_n.jpg?oh=d9f063da9c0cc1070264729e3a441b97&oe=58988B61)

Tested pH:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14606282_793102354165700_6699719159760221771_n.jpg?oh=8708a5e49b5adda3c83bafd0b9ae3dcd&oe=58602038)

Ran the calcs(titration) and dosed the brew that day hoping for 5.2 mash pH.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14695574_793111740831428_7811007153933223954_n.jpg?oh=6f51a3de293b35f1b6e82eb2fb4a6403&oe=589B0CEF)

Not too shabby.

I know recover roughly 1L more wort per mash, that goes right back into the reactor that is purged and left to sit until next brew.
Added notes.

I dose both mash AND boil, and they both have positive effects.
Firstly the SG itself tastes like glorious low oxygen wort tainted with orange juice. SG is the sole creator of the grape flavor in these beers (grape, grape koolaid, yougurt, tang). When added to the mash it has great acid AND oxygen buffering capabilities. PH will lock in and you will have much better oxidation protection, so much infact I only consume 10ppm sulfites from my dough in until I pitch yeast( and that is with a cold trub seperation process). The host of other benefits are outlined in Kunze.

When added to the boil as a knock out addition, you add more grape, but you also get a beautiful fresh wort aroma and flavor that carries over into the finished beer. You know the commercial beers you taste this fresh wort in are using a knockout addition of SG. Paulaner pils, and Andechs Vollbier Hell, are some really nice examples of the power of SG, they have SG notes galore.

Some excerpts from my stash.

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14714897_793172560825346_1824878931573289759_o.jpg)


(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14681988_793172554158680_3981243426791655125_o.jpg)


(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14707009_793172557492013_4235761715164806976_o.jpg)
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: erockrph on October 28, 2016, 04:02:15 AM
Do you use a PRV on your fermentation keg for this? My sour worts that have been innoculated with grain have built up a significant amount of pressure. I learned quickly to attach my spunding valve.

I just strap a brew belt on the keg and keep it in a cooler. I suppose you could use a temp probe if you were trying to target a specific temp, but I've found lacto to be just fine anywhere within 10-20 degrees of 100F.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 10:57:37 AM
Yup PRV set to 5psi, that way I can dispense directly. Kunze is pretty explicit about 48c so I maintain that within a degree.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 28, 2016, 05:53:06 PM
How do you add back the new wort to the reactor keg?  I am thinking about O2 ingress on that process and how best to limit that.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Stevie on October 28, 2016, 05:56:12 PM
Seems like too much effort for me. Is the driving force the desire to stay RHB? 88% lactic would work just as well.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 28, 2016, 06:13:19 PM
Actually, the treatise claims other benefits that are not present from acid additions alone, including better digestibility, if I am reading that correctly.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 28, 2016, 07:19:28 PM
Seems like too much effort for me. Is the driving force the desire to stay RHB? 88% lactic would work just as well.
that will get the pH down, but the industrial lactose is said to be one dimensional compared to a sauergut.

Had to edit an autocorrect!
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Stevie on October 28, 2016, 07:31:04 PM
Right, but we are not talking about lowering to a Berliner level of pH. This is would a relatively tiny amount of acid, certainly less than taste threshold.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 07:32:05 PM
How do you add back the new wort to the reactor keg?  I am thinking about O2 ingress on that process and how best to limit that.

Addition of sulfited low o2 wort gently, and purge vessel.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 07:33:00 PM
Seems like too much effort for me. Is the driving force the desire to stay RHB? 88% lactic would work just as well.

No actually far from, there are a host of benefits.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 07:34:03 PM
Right, but we are not talking about lowering to a Berliner level of pH. This is would a relatively tiny amount of acid, certainly less than taste threshold.

Roughly 2l per 20l batch, actually its far above the taste threshold and one of the driving flavors of the majority of examples.
Title: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Stevie on October 28, 2016, 07:38:09 PM
What are the other benefits?

What kind of mash are you running that 2L of 88% lactic would be needed to get you to 5.2? I use between 1-3ml at most.

ETA - I guess as you are using full volume mashing, it would take a larger amount of acid to hit 5.2. "Normal" mash thicknesses would require much less than the taste threshold.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 07:50:08 PM
What are the other benefits?

What kind of mash are you running that 2L of 88% lactic would be needed to get you to 5.2? I use between 1-3ml at most.

Sorry, I was speaking of the amount of sauergut added (2l). Kunze is pretty adamant that mineral acid ( 88%) is a last resort, and he isn't a RHG elitist.

Umm Benefits off the top of my head:

More oxidation reduction power
Better enzyme actions
Better extract yield
More zinc( healthier and faster fermentations)
Probiotics( digestibility and nutritional value)
Shorter mash times
Inhibits lox ( the major staling enzyme)
Flavor enhancement (source of grape flavors in the beers)

I think one of the book pages above lists most of them.


Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Phil_M on October 28, 2016, 08:54:00 PM
Maybe I'm the only one...but part of me wants to try this approach to control the pH on a Dry Irish Stout?  :D
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Stevie on October 28, 2016, 09:01:58 PM
Maybe I'm the only one...but part of me wants to try this approach to control the pH on a Dry Irish Stout?  :D
Isn't that how's Guinness is rumored to do it?
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 09:30:22 PM
Maybe I'm the only one...but part of me wants to try this approach to control the pH on a Dry Irish Stout?  :D
Isn't that how's Guinness is rumored to do it?

Yup!
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Stevie on October 28, 2016, 09:50:51 PM
All of the rumors I've seen say it is a separate sour mashed wort that is added post main mash. Again, rumors. I've also seen denials.

Maybe it was more to combat the high RA from the hard water. It could easily have been a technique of the past as more water treatment is done these days.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: reverseapachemaster on October 28, 2016, 10:25:42 PM

Sorry, I was speaking of the amount of sauergut added (2l). Kunze is pretty adamant that mineral acid ( 88%) is a last resort, and he isn't a RHG elitist.

Umm Benefits off the top of my head:

More oxidation reduction power
Better enzyme actions
Better extract yield
More zinc( healthier and faster fermentations)
Probiotics( digestibility and nutritional value)
Shorter mash times
Inhibits lox ( the major staling enzyme)
Flavor enhancement (source of grape flavors in the beers)

I think one of the book pages above lists most of them.

Whatever microorganisms are added pre-boil is killed in the boil. If your post-boil addition is pre-chilling then you're killing off whatever is alive at the stage unless you are able to chill at a truly rapid speed.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: brewinhard on October 28, 2016, 11:18:09 PM
This is really cool Bryan. Thanks for sharing your process with SG production.

Albeit it seems like quite a bit of work, but if one has the desire and time for it, then I could see how the benefits of homemade SG (not lactic acid from a bottle) could get you even closer to the real deal.

I most definitely have noticed differences when fermenting worts with straight lacto (in terms of flavor/aroma/acidity) compared to beers I have tried to dose with bottled lactic acid. The bottled products almost gives me some fake buttery notes to the beer (diacetyl) that I simply did not care for.

Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: mabrungard on October 29, 2016, 02:30:33 AM
Maybe I'm the only one...but part of me wants to try this approach to control the pH on a Dry Irish Stout?  :D
Isn't that how's Guinness is rumored to do it?

Yup!

Nope! Guinness does not sour their dark wort. Their water is almost Pilsen quality.

You might benefit from reading Zymurgy someday.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Stevie on October 29, 2016, 02:34:40 AM
Maybe I'm the only one...but part of me wants to try this approach to control the pH on a Dry Irish Stout?  :D
Isn't that how's Guinness is rumored to do it?

Yup!

Nope! Guinness does not sour their dark wort. Their water is almost Pilsen quality.

You might benefit from reading Zymurgy someday.
Martin, any thoughts on the origin or the rumor?
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 29, 2016, 02:44:31 AM
IIRC per Martin, Guinness mashes pale malt at proper pH, then blends with the dark malt wort that is mashed/steeped with no attempt to raise pH. Resulting in the slight twang Guinness is known for. That, or it's just a damn good homebrew recipe.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Big Monk on October 29, 2016, 03:57:38 AM
You might benefit from reading Zymurgy someday.

You mean people actually read zymurgy?
Title: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Stevie on October 29, 2016, 05:11:14 AM
You might benefit from reading Zymurgy someday.

You mean people actually read zymurgy?
Every two months I have that moment of excitement when the new zymurgy arrives in my mailbox. I hurry into the bathroom itching to smell that virgin paper and ink. Every time I'm hoping for hot young coeds. But no, just a bunch of old bearded guys with bellies talking about beer. Someday... someday.

But seriously, be cool. There are many contributors that are active members on this forum, including Martin and his great water articles. Don't like it, start your own Zine at the corner copy shop.

ETA - You could submit your own article as well. I know they pay.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Big Monk on October 29, 2016, 11:06:42 AM
I'll put the in next time so there is no confusion.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on October 29, 2016, 11:09:06 AM
Maybe I'm the only one...but part of me wants to try this approach to control the pH on a Dry Irish Stout?  :D
Isn't that how's Guinness is rumored to do it?

Yup!

Nope! Guinness does not sour their dark wort. Their water is almost Pilsen quality.

You might benefit from reading Zymurgy someday.


FWIW. My YUP was to trying sauergut to use on a dark beer as I use it for all my pH needs
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: mabrungard on October 29, 2016, 03:32:14 PM
Martin, any thoughts on the origin or the rumor?

It was a reasonable assumption.

Guinness was long known to deliver their dark Guinness Flavor Extract to their other breweries, so everyone knew that this was an important component. The thing that I believe confused the typical homebrewer was that people thought that Dublin water was very hard and alkaline. While that is true in some parts of the city, its not true in the part that the St James Gate brewery is. Their water runs off the granitic Wicklow Mountains and it is almost devoid of mineralization and alkalinity.

Mixing roast barley with a highly alkaline water would not result in a very low pH wort. But mixing roast barley with what amounts to RO or distilled water, results in a wort pH that hovers around 4.5. If you assumed that the Guinness water source was alkaline, you would have to assume that there was some sort of souring action in order for that dark extract to have a low pH. But the reality is that their process and result is much simpler than that. Guinness' recipe of barley malt, raw barley, and roast barley create a very complimentary flavor when the pH of the overall beer is depressed by that GFE addition. They do mash the pale components in a separate mash and combine the worts later.

The simple work-around for brewing an excellent dry stout is to use RO water and hold the roast barley out of the main mash. You then add the ground roast barley at the end of the mash where it adds the color and drives the wort pH down. It is a very effective technique and I and many others have found it to produce a very authentic result.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: zwiller on October 29, 2016, 05:19:27 PM
I gotta say that my dark beer strategy (mashing higher pH) would really work well with a kettle GS addition to emulate but honestly I prefer Murphy/Beamish sans twang.   If I was chasing the holy grail of Guinness I would make SG except use roasted barley in place of acid to get pH down to 4.5, thus creating your own GFE. 

Has the redox potential of SG been measured or studied yet?  I am hoping to use it in place of the other redox strategies but suspect the process is much slower.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Big Monk on October 29, 2016, 08:14:40 PM
I gotta say that my dark beer strategy (mashing higher pH) would really work well with a kettle GS addition to emulate but honestly I prefer Murphy/Beamish sans twang.   If I was chasing the holy grail of Guinness I would make SG except use roasted barley in place of acid to get pH down to 4.5, thus creating your own GFE. 

Has the redox potential of SG been measured or studied yet?  I am hoping to use it in place of the other redox strategies but suspect the process is much slower.

Bryan just did an experiment to get empirical values for redox. I'm not sure he's formalized it yet.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: The Beerery on November 04, 2016, 11:46:12 PM

Has the redox potential of SG been measured or studied yet?  I am hoping to use it in place of the other redox strategies but suspect the process is much slower.

It has. Sorry been busy with other things I have the data just no post yet.  The short answer is there is a small amount. But not nearly enough to say get rid of any antioxidants in the mash. It could maybe drop you 10-20ppm on your SMB dose.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Hooper on November 12, 2016, 02:34:21 PM
I don't see how "Probiotics( digestibility and nutritional value)" is improved if the last SG addition is at knock out.
Title: Re: The Beerery's Sauegut Reactor
Post by: Hooper on November 12, 2016, 11:58:41 PM
I like the idea of this...I make a SOMA Saison with a 1 lb overnight sourmash addition at the end of the mash. The last time I did it the mash was bad sour and kinda ruined the beer...I like the idea of doing a 2 L sour starter...if it tastes good...add it as described...if not...proceed without the SG...