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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: 2brew559 on October 28, 2016, 10:20:32 PM

Title: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 28, 2016, 10:20:32 PM
question regarding yeast slurry clean vs loose

man this sounds nasty...LOL  ;D

so I  asked a previous question; "how much yeast slurry to use" on the boards the other day.

guess the amounts are based on clean slurry, decanted/ washed etc...

But I'm trying to brew 2 - 5.5 batches of beer with 1.050 OG  this saturday early AM or Sunday early.

 I'm planning to keg 2 batches that I made 2 weeks ago and are ready to keg. I used wyeast london ale 3 1318   I want to reuse that same yeast this weekend with out washing  the yeast.

I read on brulosophers web site to just use double the amount of yeast slurry that the calculators tell you to use since its sloppy  and not compacted and clean.

so if the calculator says use 100 milliliters to acheive your desired pitch rate off cells of clean slurry  then use 200 milliliters of sloppy slurry to over build it since since half of it is yeast & the rest is other...


His example:  for a 1.050 beer

Calculating the amount of slurry required to come close to a similar cell count wasn’t terribly difficult. Assuming dense yeast slurry contains roughly 1.2 billion cells per ml (1, 2) and aiming for a total cell count of 280bil to match my starter, I ended up collecting a full pint (~473 ml) of loose slurry from the bottom of the cool fermented Schwarzbier carboy, understanding the actual yeast would ultimately compact to about half of this volume. By my calculations, this would leave me with approximately 284bil cells: (473 x 0.5)1.2 = 283.8. Perfect!


I texted him early today.. and as always he came thru and said yup just double the slurry and pitch all of it...

I'm just trying to see what others have to say in regards to sloopy vs clean dense slurry








Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 28, 2016, 10:27:14 PM
why cant i just be a dirty  boy.LOl  :P ::) ;D

Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: brewinhard on October 28, 2016, 11:09:36 PM
I think a lot of this also depends on how clean and free of kettle break your wort is going into the fermenter. I try to shoot for mostly crystal clear wort going into my carboys for primary. I would guess then that more of the cake that settles out on the bottom of the fermenter is more yeast than not (if that makes sense).

One that racks a lot of break carryover into the fermenter would most likely have more sediment besides yeast cell pitched and replicated during fermentation. I have always just pitched what calculators have suggested, not worrying too much about exact-ness. I have no way of actually perfectly measuring out 227 mL of yeast.
Just like Mark S.'s  nuclear bomb idea, eyeballing yeast amount repitches has gotten me good results with minimal stressing. YMMV.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: Stevie on October 28, 2016, 11:32:21 PM
+ 1 to the above.

I whirlpool and cast out of the kettle slowly to bring over as little trub as possible. I know some say it doesn't matter, but I like to repitch and would rather have a fairly clean crop.

Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 28, 2016, 11:33:24 PM
I think a lot of this also depends on how clean and free of kettle break your wort is going into the fermenter. I try to shoot for mostly crystal clear wort going into my carboys for primary. I would guess then that more of the cake that settles out on the bottom of the fermenter is more yeast than not (if that makes sense).

One that racks a lot of break carryover into the fermenter would most likely have more sediment besides yeast cell pitched and replicated during fermentation. I have always just pitched what calculators have suggested, not worrying too much about exact-ness. I have no way of actually perfectly measuring out 227 mL of yeast.
Just like Mark S.'s  nuclear bomb idea, eyeballing yeast amount repitches has gotten me good results with minimal stressing. YMMV.

Makes sense...  carrying over a lot of junk into fermenter from brew kettle will def.. offset the yeast to junk percentages or ratios..


But wait.. what's the mark. S 's nuclear eyeball thing your referenced"  I looked up mark and nuclear and I got nuclear weapons.......True Story, LOL

I don't think ur referring to that ;D....

Dang  talking about clean yeast cake.. I dry hopped free 5 oz into my fermenter, 7 days ago.. so there goes using clean yeast...   Im  cold crashing that tonight and reusing the yeast from that batch which is  the london ale  III 1318... on sunday morning... possibly tomrrow if I can get my a%%^ out of bed..

Guess will have to double the amount of yeast I harvest as per brolopshers recommendation   

and pitch that into  my 1.050 stout and  slightly less blond ale 1.045 


Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: The Beerery on October 28, 2016, 11:53:42 PM
As an avid slurry user who on average gets high 50's number of repitches out of his initlal pitch. I would say trub cleanliness is paramount. It may not be as of a big deal for one additional pitch but it will be a factor none the less and here's why. Now I know your question is about amount with trub, but I would be very hesitant to use a pitch that you pitched a tons of hops in.  Your trub is going to be caked with hop gunk, along with the normal tannis and icky gunk. I would put money on this hop matter actually effecting the new batch negatively. An example of how repitch yeast can innfluence beer flavor is schlenkerla, the German brewery. They take and repitch the yeast they use for their main smoke beer into their helles. This helles has a dominant smokey flavor and it's solely from the yeast being repitched. So I guess the point is it can be a double edged sword.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 29, 2016, 01:15:02 AM
Wow, high 50's on the repitching - that's twice my highest ever (a clean lager strain that I just changed up on to make a change - no mutations).  That is impressive that you routinely run them for so long.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: Stevie on October 29, 2016, 01:24:25 AM
I have a hard enough time keeping a pitch of Chico going. Y'all must brew way more than me, or use the same strain for everything. I wouldn't doubt Bryan using one strain. If
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 29, 2016, 08:14:09 AM
As an avid slurry user who on average gets high 50's number of repitches out of his initlal pitch. I would say trub cleanliness is paramount. It may not be as of a big deal for one additional pitch but it will be a factor none the less and here's why. Now I know your question is about amount with trub, but I would be very hesitant to use a pitch that you pitched a tons of hops in.  Your trub is going to be caked with hop gunk, along with the normal tannis and icky gunk. I would put money on this hop matter actually effecting the new batch negatively. An example of how repitch yeast can innfluence beer flavor is schlenkerla, the German brewery. They take and repitch the yeast they use for their main smoke beer into their helles. This helles has a dominant smokey flavor and it's solely from the yeast being repitched. So I guess the point is it can be a double edged sword.

That makes sense...Id rather do it right.   thanks for the info... :)

If I wash the heavily hopped yeast properly then I can reuse it?  If so, can I wash the yeast properly and have it ready for brewing Sunday morning. Lets say I start the washing of the yeast tomorrow morning, Saturday?
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: brewinhard on October 29, 2016, 11:26:17 AM
As an avid slurry user who on average gets high 50's number of repitches out of his initlal pitch. I would say trub cleanliness is paramount. It may not be as of a big deal for one additional pitch but it will be a factor none the less and here's why. Now I know your question is about amount with trub, but I would be very hesitant to use a pitch that you pitched a tons of hops in.  Your trub is going to be caked with hop gunk, along with the normal tannis and icky gunk. I would put money on this hop matter actually effecting the new batch negatively. An example of how repitch yeast can innfluence beer flavor is schlenkerla, the German brewery. They take and repitch the yeast they use for their main smoke beer into their helles. This helles has a dominant smokey flavor and it's solely from the yeast being repitched. So I guess the point is it can be a double edged sword.

That makes sense...Id rather do it right.   thanks for the info... :)

If I wash the heavily hopped yeast properly then I can reuse it?  If so, can I wash the yeast properly and have it ready for brewing Sunday morning. Lets say I start the washing of the yeast tomorrow morning, Saturday?

I personally find washing to be a huge PITA, as well as increasing the chances of infection unless you are super clean with all of your transfers.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: JJeffers09 on October 29, 2016, 12:50:18 PM
I think washing doesn't get the same attention and studying as extract to all grain brewing does.  If you can make the step from extract to all grain, you should be able to learn the best practices for washing yeast.  You can't say that mashing grains is easier than opening a can/jug/bag of malt extract.  There is all kinds of steps you can take to "learning" how to manage a strain at home.  But what is a PITA is trying to clean out an infection in your go to strain, and for a guy like me (a cheep ass) some things must be done.

I realized it was easier for me to build up off of a big starter, not pitch all of it, and keep back some fresh yeast. Versus using a slurry from a batch.  Unless I was going brew on the cake itself.  Something like a brown ale to a stout.  Or a blonde ale to an IPA. Never the reverse, like The Beerery said you don't want off flavors from a previous slurry/cake in your next beer.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: natebrews on October 29, 2016, 01:03:03 PM
I generally rinse my yeast cake (put it in a jug with a bunch of clean water, shake it up and let it stratify into the yeast/junk/water and then siphon out the yeast portion) and do 3-5 repitches.  I haven't ever had a problem with this, and generally by the 5th batch I'm going to move on to a new strain.  Sometimes, I just don't bother with the rinsing if I am pitching into something similar, or from something very delicate into something robust (think cream ale pitched into a RIS). 

I also try to leave most of my trub in the kettle, but invariably there ends up being 0.5-1" of junk in the bottom of the carboy at the end.

For the hoppy beer to something repitch, does the trub really matter?  I was under the impression that it was the hop oils in the beer (regardless of the trub material) that was coating the yeast cells and inhibiting their ability to take food in/out and reproduce.  Isn't that the basis for the antimicrobial aspect of hops (I don't know, but that is what I thought was the case)?  If that is the case, even with no trub you would have the hop compounds coating the cells.  Perhaps just repitching more yeast can compensate for this, but  you also get some residual bitterness carryover (as Beerery was saying with the smoke).
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 29, 2016, 04:12:56 PM
I generally rinse my yeast cake (put it in a jug with a bunch of clean water, shake it up and let it stratify into the yeast/junk/water and then siphon out the yeast portion) and do 3-5 repitches.  I haven't ever had a problem with this, and generally by the 5th batch I'm going to move on to a new strain.  Sometimes, I just don't bother with the rinsing if I am pitching into something similar, or from something very delicate into something robust (think cream ale pitched into a RIS). 

I also try to leave most of my trub in the kettle, but invariably there ends up being 0.5-1" of junk in the bottom of the carboy at the end.

For the hoppy beer to something repitch, does the trub really matter?  I was under the impression that it was the hop oils in the beer (regardless of the trub material) that was coating the yeast cells and inhibiting their ability to take food in/out and reproduce.  Isn't that the basis for the antimicrobial aspect of hops (I don't know, but that is what I thought was the case)?  If that is the case, even with no trub you would have the hop compounds coating the cells.  Perhaps just repitching more yeast can compensate for this, but  you also get some residual bitterness carryover (as Beerery was saying with the smoke).
Makes sense, washing slurry that was harvested from a hoppy brew/ beer will have residual hop oils still coating the cells. This might transfer unwanted flavors/ tannins  into a clean beer like a blond Ale or sim.. regardless if washed.   

 I'll just wait till next week to brew and just buy 2 packs of wyeast 1318 and do shaken not stirred
Or plan next time to use washed slurry from a beer into a similar beer..

Example hoppy slurry to hoppy ale , stout to brown ale, etc...

Thanks everyone.. so much to learn. And great brewers on here to learn it from!

This sucks! LOL   though...now I gotta wait since my LHBS doesn't have 1318 in stock
Wanted to make the oatmeal stout and blond tomorrow morning, Sunday.

But can't use that hoppy 1318 yeast slurry in these brew's,  since the slurry is from the hoppy pale ale that had 5oz of hopps thrown in , dry hopped. 

I'll just brew next week! Did I say this sucks.. lol








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Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: natebrews on October 29, 2016, 04:41:12 PM
You could try rinsing the yeast for learning, even if you don't use it.  The rinsing process isn't difficult, it just take a couple hours depending on the yeast.  If it doesn't work out, then you are in the same spot you are in right now.

Alternatively, even if you just get a crumby rinsing (or none at all) you could just use a portion of the slurry to make a starter now.  Growing up the new yeast from a small portion of the slurry will dilute out the residual hop stuff and make some fresh clean yeast (which will have the older stuff in it too, but diluted). 

I would say to just go for it.  The beer certainly won't be ruined and you will have a good learning experience from it.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: Stevie on October 29, 2016, 04:46:06 PM
The rinsing process is too much of a PIA and too easy to introduce new contaminants. Cast off clean wort and rack before dryhopping will give you good clean bottom crops.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: natebrews on October 29, 2016, 04:53:08 PM
If he really wants to brew tomorrow and not rinse, he could grow up the starter from the dirty slurry.  Otherwise he has to wait, and who wants to do that when the kettle is calling.  Brew kettles love being anthropomorphized.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: flars on October 29, 2016, 05:01:06 PM
I have a new procedure for pouring from the boil kettle to the fermentor solo.  The new method has resulted in cleaner harvested yeast.  My wife used to help by holding a funnel and mesh bag on the carboy while I poured from the boil kettle.  Usually resulted in some sticky wort ending up on her shoes.

Mesh bag is held in place with binder clips.  Sanitized foil on the fermentor as a precaution.  The bag is lifted after the pour to finish draining the wort held in the hop debris.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm14/walars/Harvesting%20yeast/512resized_zpsbbtt0pvr.jpg)

Contents of the fermentor swirled into solution after racking to the bottling bucket.  After 15 minutes or so a thin line of clear beer begins to show on the surface.  This is when I pour to two pint jars.  There is yeast left in the fermentor but two pint jars is more than enough to store.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm14/walars/Harvesting%20yeast/475resized_zpsm5lrspsm.jpg)

The next day almost all the yeast has dropped out of the remaining beer in the jar.  175 milliliters of yeast in each jar.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm14/walars/Harvesting%20yeast/479resized_zpsberaa4s2.jpg)
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: Stevie on October 29, 2016, 05:09:57 PM
Yesterday's crop. A little bit of crap at the bottom. But pretty clean.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161029/2de8408c5aa46a2dacc915f103e5dfa7.jpg)
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 29, 2016, 05:25:14 PM
Dang guys you guys are making me jealous with all your yeast harvest banks..lol. I think I will harvest anyways just to do it.. so I learn..since I've never done it before.

But still freaking A .. I'm gonna raid your yeast storages..lol if you hear a prowler it's me..lol

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Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: brewinhard on October 29, 2016, 08:04:53 PM
I really don't see the need for yeast rinsing when it is better stored under beer to begin with. It is not in the yeast's best interest to store it under water (especially distilled). Best stored under beer for protection.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: Big Monk on October 29, 2016, 08:12:52 PM
I really don't see the need for yeast rinsing when it is better stored under beer to begin with. It is not in the yeast's best interest to store it under water (especially distilled). Best stored under beer for protection.

This.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: natebrews on October 29, 2016, 09:33:44 PM
I always leave mine in the stuff it fermented until the day before I'm going to use it, and rinse it then.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 30, 2016, 07:04:52 PM
Ok so his is my procedure: 1st time ever doing this .. ever.. did I say ever..lol

Yeast source: I brewed 2 weeks ago
On Oct.15, 2016 Saturday using wyeast 1318 London ale 3 - in a Hoppy amber 1.047 OG with 5 oz dry hopped loosely in spediel besides the normal boiling hopps etc..
 
1318 Yeast Harvest Date: Oct. 29, 2016 Sat.

Step 1: boiled and cooled  1 gallon  water - added to spediel and swirled slurry around. Poured all of it into 5000ml flask. Chilled for 4 hrs or so

Step 2:  visually could see the layers, the bottom layer was very greenish..due to hopPS. Decanted carefully into sterilized 1 gallon glass jug all the layers minus the bottom trub/ hopps gunk - let sit in fridge another 1 hr or so cold

Step 3: decanted 1 gallon glass jug into 4 small pint glass jars. Carefully adding the top layers  with only leaving the trub behind

STEP 5: the small glass jars sat overnight in fridge and have 2 distinctly layers murky  beer/ water with creamy white bottom

Step 6: what do I need to do now???
How to store , decant etc.. should I combine all into one jar ?..

I am going to label wyeast 1318 hoppy slurry and date it!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161030/7b5196aed792a68db7da129b40adeae2.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161030/38618eb4400fbd12b2ae9fd5bdf3037f.jpg)











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Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: natebrews on October 30, 2016, 07:23:25 PM
I would use it as soon as you can, the shelf life on that stuff isn't very long (few weeks maybe?).  I would also do a starter with it before I use it, at very least to wake it up and get it going.  You also have to kind of guess what the yeast density is there, but just guess low and you should be fine.

I wouldn't recombine them, that is just more chance to infect it, plus the amount of yeast in one of those jars is pretty high.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: bboy9000 on October 30, 2016, 07:56:35 PM
Search the forum for "Just say no to yeast rinsing."  You will likely change your mind about rinsing yeast.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehomebrewersassociation%2Eorg%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D19850&share_tid=19850&share_fid=40079&share_type=t
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: brewinhard on October 30, 2016, 08:05:04 PM
Search the forum for "Just say no to yeast rinsing."  You will likely change your mind about rinsing yeast.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehomebrewersassociation%2Eorg%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D19850&share_tid=19850&share_fid=40079&share_type=t

Yes. Its a waste of time.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: natebrews on October 30, 2016, 08:16:03 PM
So do you do anything to get the junk out from before?  Based on the same information that it looks like that post was sourced from, I always store the yeast in its beer until right before using it.  Would you say it is detrimental to rinse it right before using it to get the junk out (hop bits, trub, dead cells, the flavor of the beer it was in), especially in the case of going from something strong to something mild?
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: brewinhard on October 30, 2016, 08:18:39 PM
So do you do anything to get the junk out from before?  Based on the same information that it looks like that post was sourced from, I always store the yeast in its beer until right before using it.  Would you say it is detrimental to rinse it right before using it to get the junk out (hop bits, trub, dead cells, the flavor of the beer it was in), especially in the case of going from something strong to something mild?

I typically do not go from something strong to something mild.  I usually brew smaller, lighter colored beers first, then reuse the yeast for darker, stronger beers. I would not reuse yeast from a batch that had a lot of hops in it. Instead, I would just use fresh yeast so as not to have any carry over of flavor where it might not be wanted.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 30, 2016, 08:19:03 PM
Thanks guys.. or girls.. I'm being political correct..lol

As always  everyone here is kick axx .lol

I'll check out the link.. 

As far as using it I  might be brewing a Hoppy pale ale in like a few weeks
And for that I'll  make. Starter out of one of the jars..

?  If I keep the rest as is and make starters when I know I'm gonna brew I'm understanding that I can keep them as is for a while..but would def need to make. Starter when I do choose to use a jar ..right?



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Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: brewinhard on October 30, 2016, 08:40:34 PM
Yes. The most I have saved a jar for is about 6 wks. After that, I dump'em.

Usually, I try to time my brewing/kegging sessions so I am kegging and saving some slurry 1-2 days prior to when I am going to use it in my next brew. I have even pitched up to 1 wk later with good success.

After, that I would probably make a starter. And depending how old the slurry is, use anywhere from 2-4 TBS of thick slurry to pitch into my new starter wort.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 30, 2016, 08:58:33 PM
Ok that sounds easy enough. And you described measurements of the yeast slurry. thanks so much!!! :)

I'll probaly brew next weekend 2 on Saturday using fresh yeast 1318 from packet starter.. oatmeal stout and blond

Then Sunday if I'm not dead..lol make the hoppy pale ale form the wyeast slurry in this discussion :)

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Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: brewinhard on October 30, 2016, 10:46:25 PM
Ok that sounds easy enough. And you described measurements of the yeast slurry. thanks so much!!! :)

I'll probaly brew next weekend 2 on Saturday using fresh yeast 1318 from packet starter.. oatmeal stout and blond

Then Sunday if I'm not dead..lol make the hoppy pale ale form the wyeast slurry in this discussion :)

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Great!  Good luck and report back with how your brewday goes.
Title: Re: Pitching sloppy vs Clean slurry calculations
Post by: 2brew559 on October 30, 2016, 11:05:13 PM
Def. I will  report my brew day and tastings once the brews turn into beers :)


Below is the picture of the hoppy beer (kegged Saturday Oct. 29, 2016) that I used the 5oz of dry hops, also happens to be the beer I harvested the wyeast 1318 slurry from.   
Was cold crashed @ 32F on Friday Oct. 28th, 2016 then on Saturday
transferred to keg on Saturday over gelatin and cold crashed some more.
This is the sample I drew on Sunday, yesterday.
"Couldn't wait" has that hazy look... NEIPA look!
Its flat obviously as it's only been on gas for day. Has very nice hop aroma body and mouth feel is soft + velvety mouth feel ... Cant wait tills its carbed up. :)

FYI: I don't treat the water as I don't know how, usually I use a eq. mix of ro water and bottled spring water

When I brew this weekend, I'm going to use our Clovis, CA. city water.  I've been told by someone who has connections with TIOGA BREWING CO. here in town and some other breweries that our water is great for brewing "as is".  So I'm going to try it.. tired of buying water

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161030/e657cec77e23b2cc446a3f3b43a70851.jpg)



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