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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: homoeccentricus on November 14, 2016, 01:25:00 PM

Title: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 14, 2016, 01:25:00 PM
My next brew, and probably my first 99% low oxygen (last time had problems with mashing in the Braumeister) will be another shot at a fictitious Rochefort 4 clone. My question: do Belgian breweries, and Rochefort in particular brew lodo? My assumption is no. http://www.bloggen.be/belgische_brouwerijen/archief.php?ID=808813 (http://www.bloggen.be/belgische_brouwerijen/archief.php?ID=808813) is a list of pictures of Belgian breweries. It's a long page, look for "Rochefort". Is it correct to assume just by looking at the photos that Rochefort is non-lodo? And, of course, the question becomes: will lodo brewing improve a Rochefort clone?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 14, 2016, 01:35:07 PM
BTW, it is of course very well possible the the monks at Rochefort preboil their water, which, straight from the well  (I first wrote hell) has 245 ppm bicarbonate. That would make at least the first step lodo.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 14, 2016, 01:58:04 PM
BTW, it is of course very well possible the the monks at Rochefort preboil their water, which, straight from the well  (I first wrote hell) has 245 ppm bicarbonate. That would make at least the first step lodo.
They could use slaked lime, or acid (no RHG)to neutralize the bicarbonate, or RO to remove the minerals. Hard to say from the pictures, no water treatment was evident.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: beersk on November 14, 2016, 02:42:06 PM
Yeah, it's difficult to say with such yeast driven beer. There is a lot of copper in their system though, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on November 14, 2016, 02:50:21 PM
I would say that it is safe to assume that in organizations where prior approval is required for lay Brewers to even alter the components of a recipe, that major overhauls to brewing systems are not common. With that said, even the Trappists have updated various components of their systems but as was stated above, with such a yeast forward beer, the nuance may be lost.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 14, 2016, 02:58:44 PM
It might be interesting to know the factors that make a beer more or less oxygen sensitive.  You mention "yeast forward". Would that be the yeasts with either extreme ester (trappist) or phenol (saison) production? How about alcohol tolerance? How about dark malt complexity?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on November 14, 2016, 04:12:57 PM
It might be interesting to know the factors that make a beer more or less oxygen sensitive.  You mention "yeast forward". Would that be the yeasts with either extreme ester (trappist) or phenol (saison) production? How about alcohol tolerance? How about dark malt complexity?

I just meant to say that Trappist beers in general are a yeast showcase. Much of the Low O2 character may be overshadowed by the yeast.

Although I'd like to experiment in the near future with some out of the ordinary Trappist style recipes and play with fermentation temps (i.e. Lower).
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: majorvices on November 15, 2016, 01:41:07 AM
Fascinating blog. I really enjoyed looking at those pics. Thanks.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: ynotbrusum on November 16, 2016, 12:43:26 PM
Really cool.  Still wondering about what was the deal with the wooden beam-looking pieces suspended above the cool ship in the one brewery?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: beersk on November 16, 2016, 01:34:21 PM
Really cool.  Still wondering about what was the deal with the wooden beam-looking pieces suspended above the cool ship in the one brewery?
I noticed that too and had the same question.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 16, 2016, 01:50:11 PM
Really cool.  Still wondering about what was the deal with the wooden beam-looking pieces suspended above the cool ship in the one brewery?
Raw wood to harbor the bugs and critters? You will see raw wood beams in some of the other breweries.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: majorvices on November 16, 2016, 05:50:54 PM
Really cool.  Still wondering about what was the deal with the wooden beam-looking pieces suspended above the cool ship in the one brewery?
Raw wood to harbor the bugs and critters? You will see raw wood beams in some of the other breweries.

Also, sometime if they open a new brewery at a new location they bring in some of the old beams from the old place for the reason mentioned above. don't you guys ever pick up a book? ;)
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: beersk on November 16, 2016, 06:56:47 PM
Really cool.  Still wondering about what was the deal with the wooden beam-looking pieces suspended above the cool ship in the one brewery?
Raw wood to harbor the bugs and critters? You will see raw wood beams in some of the other breweries.

Also, sometime if they open a new brewery at a new location they bring in some of the old beams from the old place for the reason mentioned above. don't you guys ever pick up a book? ;)
Huh? *slobbers* Why read when there's TV?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: jjflash on November 24, 2016, 03:56:18 PM
Chimay uses the Meura mash filter system.  I can't think of a more oxygen rich mash system.  Grist hammers to pulverize the grain to a powder, which then gets loaded into the filters.  We all know what excellent beer Chimay produces.  It's just not used in big Belgian beers with Belgian yeast.  Even Coors Light is made with a Meura mash filter system. Not sure this low oxygen mash is real issue.

Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on November 24, 2016, 04:31:24 PM
Chimay uses the Meura mash filter system.  I can't think of a more oxygen rich mash system.  Grist hammers to pulverize the grain to a powder, which then gets loaded into the filters.  We all know what excellent beer Chimay produces.  It's just not used in big Belgian beers with Belgian yeast.  Even Coors Light is made with a Meura mash filter system. Not sure this low oxygen mash is real issue.

I would say that ultimately it's less about who's doing what and more about what the process can do for you. I'm going to be starting a Belgian run (Trappist ales) very soon and trying to replicate these ales with less reliance on syrups.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: homoeccentricus on November 24, 2016, 04:43:20 PM
Still haven't found any sign of low oxygen brewing in Belgium. Maybe our friends in Leuven do it to brew pils, but otherwise? People laugh at you when you explain the concept.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: The Beerery on November 25, 2016, 03:27:56 PM
Chimay uses the Meura mash filter system.  I can't think of a more oxygen rich mash system.  Grist hammers to pulverize the grain to a powder, which then gets loaded into the filters.  We all know what excellent beer Chimay produces.  It's just not used in big Belgian beers with Belgian yeast.  Even Coors Light is made with a Meura mash filter system. Not sure this low oxygen mash is real issue.

One of the most missed points is that LARGENESS of the brewery(batch sizes) basically automatically makes it Low oxygen. The larger the brewery, the lower oxygen it is(naturally by doing nothing).
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 25, 2016, 04:40:53 PM
Chimay uses the Meura mash filter system.  I can't think of a more oxygen rich mash system.  Grist hammers to pulverize the grain to a powder, which then gets loaded into the filters.  We all know what excellent beer Chimay produces.  It's just not used in big Belgian beers with Belgian yeast.  Even Coors Light is made with a Meura mash filter system. Not sure this low oxygen mash is real issue.

One of the most missed points is that LARGENESS of the brewery(batch sizes) basically automatically makes it Low oxygen. The larger the brewery, the lower oxygen it is(naturally by doing nothing).

At what size do you consider a brewery to be large? I know it would be a curve decreasing with size, but where would the knee in the curve be?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: The Beerery on November 25, 2016, 04:51:58 PM
Chimay uses the Meura mash filter system.  I can't think of a more oxygen rich mash system.  Grist hammers to pulverize the grain to a powder, which then gets loaded into the filters.  We all know what excellent beer Chimay produces.  It's just not used in big Belgian beers with Belgian yeast.  Even Coors Light is made with a Meura mash filter system. Not sure this low oxygen mash is real issue.

One of the most missed points is that LARGENESS of the brewery(batch sizes) basically automatically makes it Low oxygen. The larger the brewery, the lower oxygen it is(naturally by doing nothing).

At what size do you consider a brewery to be large? I know it would be a curve decreasing with size, but where would the knee in the curve be?

Something like a 100hl brewery will have like 10X better protection, and 1000hl will have 20x better. Or something like that
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: dilluh98 on November 26, 2016, 12:36:09 PM
On a strictly surface area to volume argument, you'd see a 1/r trend. r being the radius of a sphere and since a cow can be approximated as a sphere, so too should beer.  :D
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: brewinhard on November 26, 2016, 06:43:21 PM
Chimay uses the Meura mash filter system.  I can't think of a more oxygen rich mash system.  Grist hammers to pulverize the grain to a powder, which then gets loaded into the filters.  We all know what excellent beer Chimay produces.  It's just not used in big Belgian beers with Belgian yeast.  Even Coors Light is made with a Meura mash filter system. Not sure this low oxygen mash is real issue.

One of the most missed points is that LARGENESS of the brewery(batch sizes) basically automatically makes it Low oxygen. The larger the brewery, the lower oxygen it is(naturally by doing nothing).

At what size do you consider a brewery to be large? I know it would be a curve decreasing with size, but where would the knee in the curve be?

Something like a 100hl brewery will have like 10X better protection, and 1000hl will have 20x better. Or something like that

Is this simply due to output then?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: The Beerery on November 26, 2016, 06:48:47 PM
Chimay uses the Meura mash filter system.  I can't think of a more oxygen rich mash system.  Grist hammers to pulverize the grain to a powder, which then gets loaded into the filters.  We all know what excellent beer Chimay produces.  It's just not used in big Belgian beers with Belgian yeast.  Even Coors Light is made with a Meura mash filter system. Not sure this low oxygen mash is real issue.



One of the most missed points is that LARGENESS of the brewery(batch sizes) basically automatically makes it Low oxygen. The larger the brewery, the lower oxygen it is(naturally by doing nothing).

At what size do you consider a brewery to be large? I know it would be a curve decreasing with size, but where would the knee in the curve be?

Something like a 100hl brewery will have like 10X better protection, and 1000hl will have 20x better. Or something like that

Is this simply due to output then?

Surface to volume of the liquids. Generally when vessels grow in size the bulk of the Growth is vertical. Which means you have much less surface for the air to infuse into. Square cube law.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: brewinhard on November 26, 2016, 06:49:44 PM
Thanks. Then they almost are lodo by default.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: The Beerery on November 26, 2016, 06:51:52 PM
Thanks. Then they almost are lodo by default.

Exactly. The larger the brewery the more low oxygen it naturally is. We have to use the crude albeit very effective hack of SMB to emulate basically.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: narcout on November 27, 2016, 10:27:17 PM
If a particular brewery doesn't use de-oxygenated water for mashing, does the smaller surface to volume ratio really matter?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: dilluh98 on November 28, 2016, 03:16:43 PM
If a particular brewery doesn't use de-oxygenated water for mashing, does the smaller surface to volume ratio really matter?

This is something I've wondered about. Also, can I assume that if a brewery reeks of mash, that their beer is probably not low oxygen?

I did the mini-mash test for myself yesterday and it was strange to not smell that typical mash smell on the pre-boil/SMB sample. I've always associated that smell with home brewing. Wort color and taste were also night and day - triangled in red cups to disguise color and also without smelling the wort, it wasn't even close for myself, my wife and my neighbor who was curious what I was up to. No one preferred the taste of the non-SMB sample. My wife's comment about the pre-boil/SMB sample was, "I distinctly taste honey and graham crackers. It's dynamic - like there's more than one thing going on."
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: The Beerery on November 28, 2016, 04:59:36 PM
If a particular brewery doesn't use de-oxygenated water for mashing, does the smaller surface to volume ratio really matter?

This is something I've wondered about. Also, can I assume that if a brewery reeks of mash, that their beer is probably not low oxygen?

I did the mini-mash test for myself yesterday and it was strange to not smell that typical mash smell on the pre-boil/SMB sample. I've always associated that smell with home brewing. Wort color and taste were also night and day - triangled in red cups to disguise color and also without smelling the wort, it wasn't even close for myself, my wife and my neighbor who was curious what I was up to. No one preferred the taste of the non-SMB sample. My wife's comment about the pre-boil/SMB sample was, "I distinctly taste honey and graham crackers. It's dynamic - like there's more than one thing going on."
Glad you saw some results... pretty night and day isn't it?

I guess it all depends on the water treatment side. They certainly won't be picking more up, after mash in but it all matters what it is on the hot side. ~3ppm is really the break point of not noticing any flavor improvements. You will still see color improvements though.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on June 22, 2020, 02:52:41 AM
BTW, it is of course very well possible the the monks at Rochefort preboil their water, which, straight from the well  (I first wrote hell) has 245 ppm bicarbonate. That would make at least the first step lodo.

Well Frank, I finally found confirmation of a Rochefort using their untreated water in the brewing process. Jeff Van den Steen’s book, “Trappist and Abbey Beers: Truly Divine”, states the the well water is not treated for the brewhouse, but rather only for the bottling line for rinsing, etc.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: denny on June 22, 2020, 02:12:58 PM
BTW, it is of course very well possible the the monks at Rochefort preboil their water, which, straight from the well  (I first wrote hell) has 245 ppm bicarbonate. That would make at least the first step lodo.

Well Frank, I finally found confirmation of a Rochefort using their untreated water in the brewing process. Jeff Van den Steen’s book, “Trappist and Abbey Beers: Truly Divine”, states the the well water is not treated for the brewhouse, but rather only for the bottling line for rinsing, etc.

When was that book written?  Things can change.  Not saying that they have, but we've both see it happen.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: homoeccentricus on June 22, 2020, 06:06:25 PM
It's from 2015.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: denny on June 22, 2020, 06:13:08 PM
It's from 2015.

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on June 22, 2020, 11:30:17 PM
It's from 2015.

Thanks for the info.

I’ve pulled bits of data from a number of sources and have modeled their brewhouse and recipe to a reasonable accuracy, including system losses, brew length, etc. and can match their pH values quoted in BLAM with the Rochefort 6 recipe sheet.

Pretty exciting.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: MattyAHA on June 24, 2020, 04:40:13 PM
i been hearing about LO brewing for some time now, i understand that o2 pick up on finished beer is something that should be avoided/ and or eliminated, but whats the deal with low o2 brewing? getting o2 out of the grains and water and complete process? idk but it seems a bit paranoid and impractical. charlie bamforth said in a podcast that HSA is over blown and not a big concern, what does LO brewing bring to the table?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 24, 2020, 05:06:23 PM
It is important if you are using the palest malts to make a Helles, Kölsch, Pils, and so one.

If you are the brewery that only uses Pala Ale malt and darker, carry on doing what you are doing.

Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: MattyAHA on June 25, 2020, 02:25:51 PM
It is important if you are using the palest malts to make a Helles, Kölsch, Pils, and so one.

If you are the brewery that only uses Pala Ale malt and darker, carry on doing what you are doing.
why is it important when using the palest malts?
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 25, 2020, 03:06:28 PM
It is important if you are using the palest malts to make a Helles, Kölsch, Pils, and so one.

If you are the brewery that only uses Pala Ale malt and darker, carry on doing what you are doing.
why is it important when using the palest malts?

Kilning to darker Lovibond denatures the Lipoxygenase in the malt.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: MattyAHA on June 25, 2020, 03:51:35 PM
Forgive me Jeff, i am not well rounded with all the types of enzymes and stuff, but wouldn't boiling the wort denature Lipoxygenase? i gotta be honest i don't even know what that is
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on June 25, 2020, 04:24:15 PM
i been hearing about LO brewing for some time now, i understand that o2 pick up on finished beer is something that should be avoided/ and or eliminated, but whats the deal with low o2 brewing? getting o2 out of the grains and water and complete process? idk but it seems a bit paranoid and impractical. charlie bamforth said in a podcast that HSA is over blown and not a big concern, what does LO brewing bring to the table?

I wasn’t trying to dredge up low oxygen topics by resurrecting this thread but rather answering a question about Rochefort and their water.

To address your comments directly would be a retread of so many other comments made by other people that have been answered ad nauseam. However, in short, the theory, which is pretty darn sound at this point, is that the natural antioxidants present in both hops and malt can be preserved by the exclusion of hot and cold side oxygen. These flavors are then preserved in the final beer, meaning a persistent fresh grain flavor, bright hop flavor, and hop aroma are all preserved.

That’s the long and short of it.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 25, 2020, 04:40:21 PM
Forgive me Jeff, i am not well rounded with all the types of enzymes and stuff, but wouldn't boiling the wort denature Lipoxygenase? i gotta be honest i don't even know what that is
The damage is done quickly in the Mash.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: narvin on June 25, 2020, 04:45:49 PM
I think it depends again on the size and type of the brewery.  Trappists are probably the least likely to change their process (and also share it with the brewing world) but I saw some modern German brewing systems when I was there.  Bavik/De Brabanderie and Trolls(Busch) come to mind.  Of course I also saw a 100 year old iron mash filter at a smallerbrewery.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: BrewBama on June 25, 2020, 05:33:10 PM
i been hearing about LO brewing for some time now, i understand that o2 pick up on finished beer is something that should be avoided/ and or eliminated, but whats the deal with low o2 brewing? getting o2 out of the grains and water and complete process? idk but it seems a bit paranoid and impractical. charlie bamforth said in a podcast that HSA is over blown and not a big concern, what does LO brewing bring to the table?

I wasn’t trying to dredge up low oxygen topics by resurrecting this thread but rather answering a question about Rochefort and their water.

To address your comments directly would be a retread of so many other comments made by other people that have been answered ad nauseam. However, in short, the theory, which is pretty darn sound at this point, is that the natural antioxidants present in both hops and malt can be preserved by the exclusion of hot and cold side oxygen. These flavors are then preserved in the final beer, meaning a persistent fresh grain flavor, bright hop flavor, and hop aroma are all preserved.

That’s the long and short of it.
There’s a ton of info here: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Bilsch on June 25, 2020, 07:30:41 PM
I have only been to one Belgian brewery Lindemans, back before their was even a tour. You just showed up and they let you walk wherever you wanted in the facility. It didn't look very low oxygen with the huge koelschip but one thing I am sure of is the Belgians are teaching it to their brewery course students, at least at Ku Leuven. Low oxygen practices are all over the Science of Brewing course I took online. Anyone taking this course cannot escape the fact that oxygen is bad at all points in the beer making process. Here are two particularly noteworthy quotes from the classwork:

"Take care of the oxygen ingression during the brewing and of the heat impact during brewing. Grain contains an enormous amount of anti-oxidants that is a gift from Mother Nature. If you destroy it already by having lots of oxygen and a lot of time at really high temperature, there are no natural preservatives anymore in your final beer. For us, that seems a little bit stupid these days, we have it from Mother Nature, why don't we use it? Make sure that, no matter what brewing system you choose, take care of oxygen ingression. Take care about the heat impacts. You need heat, you cannot do anything about that, but try to minimize it as much as you can."

"Since oxygen/ROS is so important in these reactions, oxygen uptake should be avoided at all times in every step of the brewing process, except during wort aeration before yeast fermentation. Oxygen ingress during the brewing process should be avoided: the oxygen content during wort boiling should be limited, as this process step has been shown to be the main step of autoxidation of unsaturated fatty acids."
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on June 25, 2020, 09:07:26 PM
I think it depends again on the size and type of the brewery.  Trappists are probably the least likely to change their process (and also share it with the brewing world) but I saw some modern German brewing systems when I was there.  Bavik/De Brabanderie and Trolls(Busch) come to mind.  Of course I also saw a 100 year old iron mash filter at a smallerbrewery.

Chimay, Westmalle, Westvleteren, Achel, etc. all have pretty darn state of the art stainless steel systems with either formally trained monks or lay brewers at the helm. I’m not saying anything about low oxygen, just merely that they are way more modern than most people credit them for.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: pete b on June 25, 2020, 11:33:12 PM
I think it depends again on the size and type of the brewery.  Trappists are probably the least likely to change their process (and also share it with the brewing world) but I saw some modern German brewing systems when I was there.  Bavik/De Brabanderie and Trolls(Busch) come to mind.  Of course I also saw a 100 year old iron mash filter at a smallerbrewery.

Chimay, Westmalle, Westvleteren, Achel, etc. all have pretty darn state of the art stainless steel systems with either formally trained monks or lay brewers at the helm. I’m not saying anything about low oxygen, just merely that they are way more modern than most people credit them for.
You should see the one in Spencer, MA. It looks more like a lab than a brewery.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on June 25, 2020, 11:56:33 PM
I think it depends again on the size and type of the brewery.  Trappists are probably the least likely to change their process (and also share it with the brewing world) but I saw some modern German brewing systems when I was there.  Bavik/De Brabanderie and Trolls(Busch) come to mind.  Of course I also saw a 100 year old iron mash filter at a smallerbrewery.

Chimay, Westmalle, Westvleteren, Achel, etc. all have pretty darn state of the art stainless steel systems with either formally trained monks or lay brewers at the helm. I’m not saying anything about low oxygen, just merely that they are way more modern than most people credit them for.
You should see the one in Spencer, MA. It looks more like a lab than a brewery.

Precision in the name of the Lord. I’ll take that over short and shoddy any day of the week!

I’ve been meaning to get some more Spencer.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: narvin on June 26, 2020, 12:38:46 AM
I think it depends again on the size and type of the brewery.  Trappists are probably the least likely to change their process (and also share it with the brewing world) but I saw some modern German brewing systems when I was there.  Bavik/De Brabanderie and Trolls(Busch) come to mind.  Of course I also saw a 100 year old iron mash filter at a smallerbrewery.

Chimay, Westmalle, Westvleteren, Achel, etc. all have pretty darn state of the art stainless steel systems with either formally trained monks or lay brewers at the helm. I’m not saying anything about low oxygen, just merely that they are way more modern than most people credit them for.

I'm not going to disagree, De Clerk was one of the brewing science pioneers and influenced all of the Trappists and their lay brewers with modern techniques many years ago.  They do, however, test things before changes because they do value the historical character of the beer.  Obviously, this varies from one to the other, as you know, and some (Chimay) are more willing to make cost cutting changes.

I guess the point is, there IS copper in some trappist brewing systems, as well as a reservation by some to move to high pressure tall cylindroconical tanks.  But I was by no means saying they aren't modern.
Title: Re: Belgian breweries low oxygen?
Post by: Big Monk on June 26, 2020, 03:07:06 AM
I think it depends again on the size and type of the brewery.  Trappists are probably the least likely to change their process (and also share it with the brewing world) but I saw some modern German brewing systems when I was there.  Bavik/De Brabanderie and Trolls(Busch) come to mind.  Of course I also saw a 100 year old iron mash filter at a smallerbrewery.

Chimay, Westmalle, Westvleteren, Achel, etc. all have pretty darn state of the art stainless steel systems with either formally trained monks or lay brewers at the helm. I’m not saying anything about low oxygen, just merely that they are way more modern than most people credit them for.

I'm not going to disagree, De Clerk was one of the brewing science pioneers and influenced all of the Trappists and their lay brewers with modern techniques many years ago.  They do, however, test things before changes because they do value the historical character of the beer.  Obviously, this varies from one to the other, as you know, and some (Chimay) are more willing to make cost cutting changes.

I guess the point is, there IS copper in some trappist brewing systems, as well as a reservation by some to move to high pressure tall cylindroconical tanks.  But I was by no means saying they aren't modern.

Oh for sure. I wasn’t disagreeing with you at all.