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Other than Brewing => All Things Food => Topic started by: erockrph on December 17, 2016, 08:10:04 PM

Title: Bread
Post by: erockrph on December 17, 2016, 08:10:04 PM
I finally got a bread machine after years of wanting to get one. As much as I'd like to do everything by hand, time is a big barrier for me, so I'm starting with a machine for now.

I've gotten my feet wet with a few recipes that came with the machine, and now I'm ready to start branching out. I'm kind of at the point like a kit brewer who is ready to start making a few tweaks to some proven recipes as a step to eventually designing my own recipes.

I know there are several bread makers here. Any good references, forums, recipe sites you use for reliable information and recipes?
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 17, 2016, 08:16:57 PM
King arthur flour is the flour/website I frequent for my homemade pastries and bread

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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: denny on December 17, 2016, 08:40:39 PM
King arthur flour is the flour/website I frequent for my homemade pastries and bread

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Great flour, great resource.
Title: Bread
Post by: The Beerery on December 17, 2016, 08:40:50 PM
King Arthur is great they will have everything you need as far as ingredients, recipes and process. However if you want to get crazy, mill your own flour. Oxidation in flour is the same as malt/brewing, so it's hard to beat fresh. I make a lot of bread, just finished the weekly family sandwich bread and am going to slice and package it now.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/ab0bc2f3366d2df3125b9becd8893ad5.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/2554acaf2c6f1df2d67a034ec023934f.jpg)

Edit:
All done

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/199b158dacbf0808121483cce5b6ccc6.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/d3f44b5b4a79cae04ba4021bd3d82d61.jpg)


Wood fired ovens are fun to play with as well for pizza and bread.
https://youtu.be/YSTmfVdiIhQ

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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 17, 2016, 09:03:49 PM
Bread looks terrific!
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: pete b on December 17, 2016, 09:10:48 PM
I've never used a bread machine so I want to make sure my understanding is correct: basically you add all the ingredients and it, mixes, kneads, proofs and bakes without being touched again?
First of all any home baked bread beats the hell out of store bought and I have tasted really good bread made in a machine.
I would recommend the book I tested in the podcast thread I posted here, Bread Illustrated by America's Test Kitchen  as well as Peter Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice. The reason is that both books explain the theory and practicalities behind the procedures. Even though the recipes are not formulated for machines you strike me as the type of person capable of adapting the recipes when given the science behind the recipes.
The most important thing about making good bread is the same as making good beer: manipulating the timing  and temperature of fermentation. I assume that sometimes you would like to get some fermented flavor in the bread. Since my impression is that the machine kind of goes ahead and makes the bread pretty quickly I would look into using pre ferments as a portion of your recipe. You can find recipes that use bigas or pate fermente (relatively dry, maybe 60% hydration, doughs that are allowed to ferment for a day or more) and sponges (wet pre ferments) as well as sourdough starters. All of these will go a long way in making your bread more tasty and also easier to digest. I try to keep a batch of my favorite pizza dough recipe portioned out in my freezer. I can thaw a piece out , cut it into pieces and use it as pate fermente.
I also wonder if it's possible to remove the dough before it bakes. Simply putting it in the fridge overnight will add fermented flavor.

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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: MDixon on December 18, 2016, 05:45:02 PM
I have a bread machine and would suggest if you have a particular machine to make sure you know the order the ingredients must be added for optimal results. Mine is dry then wet. I rarely to never make bread anymore, but found the machine took a bit of trial and error to get optimal results. With mine it was important to remove the bread as soon as it finished baking. Good luck with your new machine.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: riceral on December 18, 2016, 05:47:54 PM
In addition to what has been said, I have found Breadtopia   http://breadtopia.com  is a good resource.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: BrewBama on December 18, 2016, 09:23:56 PM
Great looking bread Beerery


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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: erockrph on December 19, 2016, 04:29:48 PM
I've never used a bread machine so I want to make sure my understanding is correct: basically you add all the ingredients and it, mixes, kneads, proofs and bakes without being touched again?
First of all any home baked bread beats the hell out of store bought and I have tasted really good bread made in a machine.
I would recommend the book I tested in the podcast thread I posted here, Bread Illustrated by America's Test Kitchen  as well as Peter Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice. The reason is that both books explain the theory and practicalities behind the procedures. Even though the recipes are not formulated for machines you strike me as the type of person capable of adapting the recipes when given the science behind the recipes.
The most important thing about making good bread is the same as making good beer: manipulating the timing  and temperature of fermentation. I assume that sometimes you would like to get some fermented flavor in the bread. Since my impression is that the machine kind of goes ahead and makes the bread pretty quickly I would look into using pre ferments as a portion of your recipe. You can find recipes that use bigas or pate fermente (relatively dry, maybe 60% hydration, doughs that are allowed to ferment for a day or more) and sponges (wet pre ferments) as well as sourdough starters. All of these will go a long way in making your bread more tasty and also easier to digest. I try to keep a batch of my favorite pizza dough recipe portioned out in my freezer. I can thaw a piece out , cut it into pieces and use it as pate fermente.
I also wonder if it's possible to remove the dough before it bakes. Simply putting it in the fridge overnight will add fermented flavor.

You pretty much have it right-on with how a bread machine works. You simply add the ingredients in the correct order for that particular machine (mine is wet first, the dry, then yeast added to a pocket in the dry ingredients), and the machine handles the mixing, proofing, kneading and baking from there. There is also an alarm that goes off at the time where you'd add in nuts, fruit, chocolate chips, etc. My machine has 8 different bread settings (plus 2 for dough), 3 different loaf sizes, and 3 different crust darkness settings. So while a lot of the steps are out of your control, you do have a little room for customization.

Thanks for the tips. I'll have to look into those books. You're right that I'm more interested in the "whys" rather than simply the "hows". Much like beer, I want the tools to be able to design and adapt my own recipes for my process, so I can get my ideas from my brain into a finished loaf.

And, aside from the dough settings, the machine can be opened at any point (i.e., to add extra water or flour in the kneading process if the dough is looking to wet/dry), so I can remove the dough at any stage in the process if I want. A baguette pan is probably my next purchase, so I can make smaller loaves, and ones shaped like something other than a large cube.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: Slowbrew on December 19, 2016, 04:40:41 PM
I have number of friends who use their bread machines to mix the dough and do the first proof and then take the dough out to kneed and shape into loaves.  The second proof is done in the loaf pan and baked in an oven.

They were tired of the cube bread too.  8^)

Paul
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: MDixon on December 19, 2016, 07:50:33 PM
I've done pretzels and something else which escapes me that way. The machine was great for it except my machine is on the small side.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: erockrph on December 21, 2016, 02:28:08 AM
I'm really liking that when you're working on a recipe you can turn around a new batch in hours instead of weeks like beer would take.

Here's "Kitchen Sink Multigrain v2". Version 1 was a brick. Version 2 is already really tasty, and I've learned a lot from hands-on experience in just a couple of days.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161221/7a63702a8be0306e15d3e3d54c6a889e.jpg)

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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: jimmykx250 on December 21, 2016, 09:44:50 AM
FWIW i have made some pretty nice loafs doing the no knead method as well. Granted they are not sandwich loafs but tasty just the same. Nothing like warm home made bread.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: reverseapachemaster on December 21, 2016, 03:39:33 PM
King Arthur is great they will have everything you need as far as ingredients, recipes and process. However if you want to get crazy, mill your own flour. Oxidation in flour is the same as malt/brewing, so it's hard to beat fresh. I make a lot of bread, just finished the weekly family sandwich bread and am going to slice and package it now.

How much SMB in the dough?  8)
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: The Beerery on December 21, 2016, 03:58:24 PM
King Arthur is great they will have everything you need as far as ingredients, recipes and process. However if you want to get crazy, mill your own flour. Oxidation in flour is the same as malt/brewing, so it's hard to beat fresh. I make a lot of bread, just finished the weekly family sandwich bread and am going to slice and package it now.

How much SMB in the dough?  8)

HAH! Its not SMB its vitamin C  :P
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 21, 2016, 09:45:09 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161221/b02545d1cd9408eda23ec72980868df9.jpg)

I like these for the holidays.  Roasted garlic and thyme

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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: riceral on December 21, 2016, 10:02:09 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161221/b02545d1cd9408eda23ec72980868df9.jpg)

I like these for the holidays.  Roasted garlic and thyme

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Great looking bread. I was never coordinated enough to do something like that.

I do make basil rolls for Christmas dinner. But those are rolls; nothing fancy.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 22, 2016, 01:09:54 AM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161221/b02545d1cd9408eda23ec72980868df9.jpg)

I like these for the holidays.  Roasted garlic and thyme

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Great looking bread. I was never coordinated enough to do something like that.

I do make basil rolls for Christmas dinner. But those are rolls; nothing fancy.


Yeah, looks and sounds fantastic!
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: jimmykx250 on December 22, 2016, 10:11:20 AM
recpie?
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: JJeffers09 on December 22, 2016, 09:29:52 PM
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/italian-supermarket-bread-recipe

That's the base dough.  step 3 I split into 3 pieces, and gently knead 3tsp of roasted garlic and 4 sprigs of thyme into the dough, roll into equal length pieces and braid together.  Then back to the recipe, but do not cover with sesame seeds.

The only other breads I have done with garlic and herbs is potato bread.  However I leave the cloves intact and just knead them in.  I don't roast them as long either.

To braid or plait:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP6j7esQyjk
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: stpug on February 27, 2017, 09:06:46 PM
I finally got a bread machine after years of wanting to get one. As much as I'd like to do everything by hand, time is a big barrier for me, so I'm starting with a machine for now.

I've gotten my feet wet with a few recipes that came with the machine, and now I'm ready to start branching out. I'm kind of at the point like a kit brewer who is ready to start making a few tweaks to some proven recipes as a step to eventually designing my own recipes.

I know there are several bread makers here. Any good references, forums, recipe sites you use for reliable information and recipes?

Well, it's been over 2 months since you started this thread so I assume you've probably progressed in your bread-making adventures a fair amount.  How are things shaping up for you?

I do mostly naturally leavened bread with a starter I generated a bit over a year ago.  I have to maintain (i.e. feed) it about six times a year, but other than that it's pretty easy to maintain in the fridge and build-up as needed.  After delving through various sites many years ago, the three sites that probably helped me the most were two blogs and a forum.  The two blogs were Wild Yeast Blog by Susan Tenney and the other was Breadcetera by Steve B. (both are basically defunct, but still hosted).  The forum was at A Fresh Loaf, and is still fairly active (the rest of AFL is also helpful to some extent).

Time (and timing) is a consideration that has to be taken into account for bread making by hand, for sure; BUT, it's also extremely flexible to how you wish to work (just like homebrewing is).  I find that most tasks I do in bread making take only 5-10 minutes to accomplish, and they are spread out over a couple hours to days depending on my end goal.  The baking part is the most time consuming since I use an oven and need to be present at all times during the bake, but that usually only accounts for about 1-2 hours (and not a lot of actual work on my part takes place).

It's a fun hobby that is very in-line with beer making, and both helps to fill in the dead spots as well as give another form of creative outlet that I quite enjoy.  I'll gladly provide any more info on my take on bread making if interested.

I actually have a fruit/nut/chocolate batch that I'll be baking later today. I'll try to take some photos of the process to share.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: narvin on February 27, 2017, 09:44:06 PM
King Arthur is great they will have everything you need as far as ingredients, recipes and process. However if you want to get crazy, mill your own flour. Oxidation in flour is the same as malt/brewing, so it's hard to beat fresh. I make a lot of bread, just finished the weekly family sandwich bread and am going to slice and package it now.

How much SMB in the dough?  8)

HAH! Its not SMB its vitamin C  :P

It's funny you bring that up.  Ascorbic acid is used as a dough conditioner, and I was JUST thinking about this after reading about the possible oxidation during the kneading of small batches of pizza dough.   :D


http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: stpug on February 28, 2017, 02:52:13 AM
Top-left: dividing raised dough
Top-right: bench resting preshaped boules
Bottom-left: one shaped batard, the other waiting to be shaped
Bottom-right: shaped batard in proofing basket with linen (cotton in my case) towel
(http://i.imgur.com/DkLHtDj.jpg)

Top-left: raised batards ready for oven
Top-right: flipped right-side up and slashed
Bottom-left: 15min into bake after ovenspring
Bottom-right: finished loaf cooling on wire rack
(http://i.imgur.com/7ugMkTf.jpg)
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: The Beerery on February 28, 2017, 03:13:06 AM
King Arthur is great they will have everything you need as far as ingredients, recipes and process. However if you want to get crazy, mill your own flour. Oxidation in flour is the same as malt/brewing, so it's hard to beat fresh. I make a lot of bread, just finished the weekly family sandwich bread and am going to slice and package it now.

How much SMB in the dough?  8)

HAH! Its not SMB its vitamin C  :P

It's funny you bring that up.  Ascorbic acid is used as a dough conditioner, and I was JUST thinking about this after reading about the possible oxidation during the kneading of small batches of pizza dough.   :D


http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html



Did you say pizza?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170228/a25f8f369e2edba08e2182ce15fe5cec.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170228/c4d54e0303a7272d06b6350b6c3e4758.jpg)


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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: reverseapachemaster on February 28, 2017, 04:27:20 PM
Bottom-right: shaped batard in proofing basket with linen (cotton in my case) towel

Is the purpose of the proofing basket a convenient place to keep the dough while it rises or does it have value in maintaining the shape of the dough?
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: stpug on February 28, 2017, 06:06:13 PM
Bottom-right: shaped batard in proofing basket with linen (cotton in my case) towel

Is the purpose of the proofing basket a convenient place to keep the dough while it rises or does it have value in maintaining the shape of the dough?

Primarily it's about maintaining the shape of the dough and encouraging upward growth rather than spreading/sideways growth that might happen without some form of side support.  I've used various bowls and baskets for raising loaves.  Boules (rounds) shaped loaves like you commonly see would just use a round bowl/basket, and the slashing would usually be different (+ sign on top is typical).  Some folks will simply put a boule on a piece of parchment, and put an upside-down bowl on top to give the support and keep the dough from drying out. Bread baking is so forgiving, and open to experiment.

You don't have to use a bowl/basket of any sort either, you can raise using a cloth support like a cloche (heavy piece of linen) for supporting batard (football) and longer doughs like baguette.

Some of the modern day sites/blogs/instagrams I would recommend looking at are:
#1 Maurizio's The Perfect Loaf: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/home/
and if you want more info on rye then The Rye Baker: http://theryebaker.com/
Trevor Wilson's Instagram is also awesome, and his website is: http://www.breadwerx.com/

Probably way more info that you wanted, but good bread excites me :D
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: pete b on February 28, 2017, 09:05:15 PM
I'll add to what stpug said by saying proofing baskets are most essential when making rustic loaves with very wet dough. For boules its easy to use a strainer and well floured cloth. You can use a bowl but the strainer lets some air in and prevents sweating and sticking. Better yet, you can buy the proofing basket (banneton) very cheap with a linen cloth. Also, a good tool is a lame, which is essentially a flexible razor blade on a stick, for slashing the dough before putting in the oven. It makes a cleaner cut, reducing the chance of the blade getting stuck and making and ugly mess and partially degassing the bread.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: pete b on May 04, 2017, 11:38:39 PM
Pretty pleased with this sourdough. Serving with some cream of nettle soup.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/1a17703f9d4d5d9ab7b34e1837d8d12c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 04, 2017, 11:40:41 PM
Pete, that's a thing of beauty. And it's sourdough to boot.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: pete b on May 04, 2017, 11:50:23 PM
My wife works from home now as an artist so now I feel with her help I can pull off a sourdough once a week. I fed the starter yesterday morning, made the levain last night, and the dough this morning. She did the folding and refrigeration this morning and pulled it out this afternoon. I formed the boule, put in the banneton and baked tonight. It sounds like a lot but each step is several seconds to a few minutes of work.

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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: pete b on November 13, 2017, 02:44:24 AM
Beet sourdough (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/773fc094846bbed4e748b3c588f669b7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/c3b803c35488c238a206f553d9ca3beb.jpg)

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Title: Re: Bread
Post by: jimmykx250 on November 13, 2017, 11:55:18 AM
Beet sourdough (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/773fc094846bbed4e748b3c588f669b7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/c3b803c35488c238a206f553d9ca3beb.jpg)

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[/quote

Looks really nice! I have problems with my dough sticking to my banneton's every time. I dust them with flour and corn meal sometimes and still they stick. Any tricks?
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: pete b on November 13, 2017, 12:19:31 PM
Beet sourdough (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/773fc094846bbed4e748b3c588f669b7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/c3b803c35488c238a206f553d9ca3beb.jpg)

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[/quote
Just more flour. Flour both the banneton and the dough, being especially careful that the part of that banneton that the bread will rise into is also covered.
Looks really nice! I have problems with my dough sticking to my banneton's every time. I dust them with flour and corn meal sometimes and still they stick. Any tricks?