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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: gman23 on January 11, 2017, 02:26:18 PM

Title: different forms of wheat
Post by: gman23 on January 11, 2017, 02:26:18 PM
What are the main differences in regards to flavor, body, etc when using wheat malt, flaked wheat, or torrified wheat?
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: dmtaylor on January 11, 2017, 02:34:47 PM
Excellent question.  I dare anyone to provide an answer based on real life side-by-side experimentation.  I myself do not have this answer.  I use them pretty much interchangeably based on whatever I happen to have on hand or whatever is on sale.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: gman23 on January 11, 2017, 02:38:57 PM
Excellent question.  I dare anyone to provide an answer based on real life side-by-side experimentation.  I myself do not have this answer.  I use them pretty much interchangeably based on whatever I happen to have on hand or whatever is on sale.

Thanks. I think I have read before that torrified can add a slightly nutty or biscuity character. For the amount I will be using any differences will probably be negligible. 
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: dmtaylor on January 11, 2017, 02:53:46 PM
Thanks. I think I have read before that torrified can add a slightly nutty or biscuity character. For the amount I will be using any differences will probably be negligible.

I'm pretty sure that's just theoretical.  Munch on some and see what you get in real life.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 11, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Torrefied (though it's a bi##h to crush) has a sort of popcorn character to it that the other forms don't have IMO. Past that, I'm not a huge wheat beer guy so I'll leave the subtleties to the guys that brew them more.


Edit - When I brew a hefe its 50/50 or 60/40 malt:wheat malt. Flaked wheat along with wheat malt and barley malt in a wit.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: stpug on January 11, 2017, 03:09:19 PM
Torrified definitely has a light toast quality to it that the other two do not.  Used in decently large amounts will contribute a very light nutty/popcorn quality to the beer, assuming that character is not overpowered by other factors.

The other two are basically interchangeable in my brewing practices.  They usually serve to lighten the overall malt flavors of the beer, as opposed to contributing a quality of their own.  Maybe in large proportion and in the right beer the unique wheat qualities can shine through.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: The Beerery on January 11, 2017, 03:12:35 PM
Low oxygen wheat flavors are doughy, sort of like fresh bread dough(makes sense). I am only speaking of floor malted wheat, and white wheat though, thats all I use.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: gman23 on January 11, 2017, 03:13:56 PM
Thanks all. This is only for an amount of 10% of the grain bill. I kind of assume I will get some responses that 'at that amount, just remove the wheat completely' but it is staying as I am just tweaking an old recipe.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: denny on January 11, 2017, 03:51:35 PM
Flaked wheat is not malted and tastes like wheat.  Malted wheat has a malt flavor, like malted barley.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 11, 2017, 03:53:56 PM
You left out raw wheat.  ;)
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: dmtaylor on January 11, 2017, 04:12:13 PM
You left out raw wheat.  ;)

Raw wheat makes it taste "juicy".  Just add a tablespoon all-purpose flour to any IPA and it's instantly awesome.   :o

I kid, I kid.....  ;D 8)
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: narvin on January 11, 2017, 04:29:17 PM
Raw wheat has a place.  It's not the same as AP flour, which doesn't have the germ or the bran.  It's obviously used in traditional Belgian lambics with a turbid mash but I'll throw 10% in Saisons, IPAs, and other beers.  It's going to be similar to flaked wheat, but it's cheaper.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: Steve Ruch on January 11, 2017, 04:45:34 PM
Torrefied (though it's a bi##h to crush) has a sort of popcorn character to it that the other forms don't have IMO.

Does it actually need to be crushed?
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 11, 2017, 05:04:18 PM
Torrefied (though it's a bi##h to crush) has a sort of popcorn character to it that the other forms don't have IMO.

Does it actually need to be crushed?


I always crush it under a finer gap. It has that hard exterior - I just want to get to the stuff inside.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: Phil_M on January 11, 2017, 05:09:49 PM
I'll second torrified wheat adding a popcorn/slight nutty flavor.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: denny on January 11, 2017, 05:11:34 PM
You left out raw wheat.  ;)

To me, pretty much the same flavor as flaked.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: erockrph on January 11, 2017, 05:20:40 PM
Torrefied (though it's a bi##h to crush) has a sort of popcorn character to it that the other forms don't have IMO.

Does it actually need to be crushed?
I'd recommend it. They don't dissolve readily (I learned that the hard way once). Think of them as Rice Krispies cereal - it would kinda suck if they dissolved in milk.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 11, 2017, 06:23:51 PM
You left out raw wheat.  ;)

To me, pretty much the same flavor as flaked.
My memory is numb on all the information given as it was while drinking a pint after a competition our club put on, a buddy asked Jolly Pumpkins Ron Jeffries (BoS judge), what he thought the differences were. He had an opinion on each one, and would use different forms for different beers, depending on flavor, mouthfeel, appearance and I forget what else. For a guy who is usually pretty quiet, he expounded for a long time.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: Mythguided Brewing on February 28, 2017, 06:03:57 AM
Excellent question.  I dare anyone to provide an answer based on real life side-by-side experimentation.  I myself do not have this answer.  I use them pretty much interchangeably based on whatever I happen to have on hand or whatever is on sale.

I actually did this when I really started getting into all-grain recipes - I compared red vs. white wheat malt & flaked wheat vs. torrified wheat.  By all means trust your own nose/palate, but here are the notes I took during my side-to-side comparisons:

Red Wheat Malt (Briess):  Wonderful flavor w/candy-like sweetness and very smooth mouthfeel; subtle wheat/malt aromas

White Wheat Malt (American):  Candy-like sweetness w/light honey flavors; very chalky mouthfeel; faint honey & caramel aromas

Flaked Wheat:  Thick, creamy mouthfeel w/subtle sweetness; faint "wheaties" aromas; zero fluid release - begging for a stuck sparge

Torrified Wheat:  Thick, creamy mouthfeel w/subtle sweetness; faint "wheaties" aromas; good fluid release

So flaked vs torrified wheat flavors and aromas were no different (to me), but I always use torrified just to avoid the possibility of a stuck sparge, and to receive more runnings.

I also tend to use Red Wheat Malt instead of the White, simply because I didn't like the chalky mouthfeel of White Wheat Malt (but it definitely has more of a honey character to it).
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: dmtaylor on February 28, 2017, 11:33:11 AM
I actually did this when I really started getting into all-grain recipes - I compared red vs. white wheat malt & flaked wheat vs. torrified wheat.  By all means trust your own nose/palate, but here are the notes I took during my side-to-side comparisons:

Red Wheat Malt (Briess):  Wonderful flavor w/candy-like sweetness and very smooth mouthfeel; subtle wheat/malt aromas

White Wheat Malt (American):  Candy-like sweetness w/light honey flavors; very chalky mouthfeel; faint honey & caramel aromas

Flaked Wheat:  Thick, creamy mouthfeel w/subtle sweetness; faint "wheaties" aromas; zero fluid release - begging for a stuck sparge

Torrified Wheat:  Thick, creamy mouthfeel w/subtle sweetness; faint "wheaties" aromas; good fluid release

So flaked vs torrified wheat flavors and aromas were no different (to me), but I always use torrified just to avoid the possibility of a stuck sparge, and to receive more runnings.

I also tend to use Red Wheat Malt instead of the White, simply because I didn't like the chalky mouthfeel of White Wheat Malt (but it definitely has more of a honey character to it).

Fantastic assessment.  Thank you!  I will take a closer look at torrified, sounds like a winner.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: JJeffers09 on February 28, 2017, 04:08:38 PM
I can't believe no one mentions winter wheat to spring wheat and the flavor differences.  The red wheat/winter wheat is rich, white wheat is sweet in my side by side hefe.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: Mythguided Brewing on February 28, 2017, 08:57:20 PM
I can't believe no one mentions winter wheat to spring wheat and the flavor differences.  The red wheat/winter wheat is rich, white wheat is sweet in my side by side hefe.

That got me to thinking: my original complaint about the chalky mouthfeel of the white wheat might be a pointless one if I paid more attention to an adequeate vorlauf (which might remove the itty-bitty particles causing that chalky feel)...
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: Pricelessbrewing on March 01, 2017, 03:09:03 AM
Another difference between malted wheat, and raw wheat (including flaked) is beta glucan content. Raw wheat (also flaked wheat), has high % of beta glucans, much like flaked oats, and will contribute to body and head retention and increase wort viscosity so be careful with that mashtun manifolds ye non-biabers!

I haven't seen a malster spec sheet that measured it, but I imagine torrified wheat does not have as high glucan content due to the exposure to high heat.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: Andor on March 01, 2017, 12:45:30 PM
What about soft wheat? I was trying to find a  Blanche de Bruxelles clone the other day and their web site says brewed with 40% "soft wheat" I've never heard of it unless it's just another term for one of the other wheats.


http://www.brasserielefebvre.be/beer/blanche-de-bruxelles-export/
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: mabrungard on March 01, 2017, 02:27:10 PM
I recently made an American Wheat that used red wheat instead of white. I made that decision while standing in the homebrew shop sampling the red and white wheat from the bins. The comments above are similar to my observations...I just liked the way the red tasted when compared to the white...and I hadn't used the red before.

I'm not sure that those raw perceptions make their way into the finished beer, but I'm of the opinion that they are more likely than not to impart some of that character into the beer. One thing that I might be picking up in the finished beer is a slight increase in huskiness and graininess in the beer made with red wheat...but its only one data point.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: reverseapachemaster on March 01, 2017, 04:25:27 PM
I'm not sure that those raw perceptions make their way into the finished beer, but I'm of the opinion that they are more likely than not to impart some of that character into the beer. One thing that I might be picking up in the finished beer is a slight increase in huskiness and graininess in the beer made with red wheat...but its only one data point.

I brew quite a bit with wheat and prefer red wheat over white by a mile. Red wheat definitely carries more grainy/wheat bread flavor into the beer. White wheat tends to add a lot less to the flavor. White wheat is great when you want the protein content or to smooth out the barley flavor.
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: stpug on March 01, 2017, 04:52:45 PM
Probably more detail than most folks want, but some will find it's content useful.  Granted, it's all raw grain data - no malted data.
(http://i.imgur.com/RTF7c2m.jpg)
source: http://www.einkorn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Grain-Nutrition-Comparison-Matrix.pdf
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: Philbrew on March 01, 2017, 05:47:08 PM
What about soft wheat? I was trying to find a  Blanche de Bruxelles clone the other day and their web site says brewed with 40% "soft wheat" I've never heard of it unless it's just another term for one of the other wheats.


http://www.brasserielefebvre.be/beer/blanche-de-bruxelles-export/ (http://www.brasserielefebvre.be/beer/blanche-de-bruxelles-export/)
I live in wheat growing country and the wheat farmers often refer to white wheat as "soft" and red as "hard", although they also include the season of harvest (Winter, Spring, Summer).
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: stpug on March 01, 2017, 05:58:07 PM
There is hard and soft in both "colors" of wheat (red/white).  See chart above for differences in composition.

You can see where various growing regions in the USA are located as well as what they're most likely to be growing in the following diagram:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V9ZrBKmmap0/UZUa2v78GRI/AAAAAAAABQE/aOtUrevvw-M/s1600/about-wheat-production-by-class-20110606.jpg)
Title: Re: different forms of wheat
Post by: Philbrew on March 01, 2017, 06:17:51 PM
Looking at the chart that stpug posted, the soft wheats (both red & white) are lowest in protein.