Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: syncopadence on January 21, 2017, 01:12:39 AM

Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: syncopadence on January 21, 2017, 01:12:39 AM
I've never really thought about it. All I've ever heard is you should achieve a vigorous, rolling boil. But is there such a thing as too hot of a boil? My last boil made me think it was actually TOO aggressive. I lost 2.5 gallons from pre-boil to fermentor.
Anyway, any insight is appreciated.
Cheers!

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: curtdogg on January 21, 2017, 01:31:59 AM
My 2 cents.
 When we boil we basically do 2 things.
Sanitize and concentrate.
212 degrees F for 15 minutes will sanitize your wort. When we boil longer we are looking for a certain volume and SG.
If you add IBU into the picture then hop bitterness come into play.
I would think if the temp is too hot you could burn your wort. I've never heard of it but i bet it could happen and possibly cause an acrid flavor.

Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on January 21, 2017, 02:08:03 AM
If the surface of the wort is bubbling then you're good enough.  I would say a solid simmer is plenty of boil vigor.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 21, 2017, 02:33:24 AM
Thermal stress is placed on wort, more heavily so on long, excessively turbulent boils, resulting in excessive darkening of wort and may well impact malt flavor. Where advice used to be to target 10-15% evaporation, well under 10% evaporation may well ward off these effects. FWIW I get 7-8% evaporation.


Edit -   http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/

 
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: BrewBama on January 21, 2017, 12:58:42 PM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: majorvices on January 21, 2017, 03:05:14 PM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 21, 2017, 03:18:37 PM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.

It does matter.  TBI is very real. 
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: a10t2 on January 21, 2017, 03:25:32 PM
Most homebrewers boil off far too much simply due to small volumes and (relatively) large burners. Just how much boiloff is necessary is system-dependent (elevation, kettle geometry, calandria vs. natural convection vs. recirculation, etc.) but 5-10% is definitely all that's needed to volatilize DMS. FWIW, I boil off ~12% on my 6 gal batches because that's the lowest I can throttle my burner while still getting a clean flame.

A longer or more vigorous boil can be desirable in certain situations where the Maillard products are essential to the beer (doppelbock e.g.), but boiling off 2.5 gal in a 5-10 gal batch is probably just wasting fuel.
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 21, 2017, 03:38:58 PM
In regards to the maillard products.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170121/576dfec82884808d0feef33f61a9380b.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170121/ad8fd7a33cb4ab2e434f9785f59615ea.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170121/a6b88b8c8c94642af4d0afd8d1befd71.jpg)

I can pick up some of these characteristics in many commercial and tons of homebrewed beer. When I went to low oxygen brewing I picked it up in my own quite glaringly. That's why I took measures to reduce TBI. Worked wonders. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: coolman26 on January 21, 2017, 06:17:50 PM
I was glad all this came up a ways back. I had always heard DMS drama. I boiled my ass off. My rig burner design could send boil over into the next county.  My current Kolsch was the first low burn/evap conscious brew. It is cleaner in flavor, plus I ended with 21 gallons in my 25 gallon kettle. Do temps matter, I'll say yes they do. Give me 5 brews to decide, but I can tell......I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 21, 2017, 09:14:12 PM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.

It does matter.  TBI is very real.

I agree with you that most homebrewers "overboil", but serious question here, do you take every piece of 20th century German literature as gospel?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 21, 2017, 09:22:06 PM
Lol I quoted "American" literature here. 
But to answer your "serious" question the literature I quote is teaching material at the brewing schools. To top that off Kunze was updated in 2015 if I am not mistaken . So are you calling schooled brewers with degrees and phd's foolish for their coursework? Do you have recommendations for more current works? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 21, 2017, 09:33:53 PM
Lol I quoted "American" literature here. 
But to answer your "serious" question the literature I quote is teaching material at the brewing schools. To top that off Kunze was updated in 2015 if I am not mistaken . So are you calling schooled brewers with degrees and phd's foolish for their coursework? Do you have recommendations for more current works? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I said I agreed with you bud. And a lot of stuff is taught in a lot of schools. Should it all be taken at face value?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Stevie on January 21, 2017, 09:37:20 PM
Lol I quoted "American" literature here. 
But to answer your "serious" question the literature I quote is teaching material at the brewing schools. To top that off Kunze was updated in 2015 if I am not mistaken . So are you calling schooled brewers with degrees and phd's foolish for their coursework? Do you have recommendations for more current works? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I said I agreed with you bud. And a lot of stuff is taught in a lot of schools. Should it all be taken at face value?
When backed by empirical and repeatable data, yes. At least until new data proves otherwise.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 21, 2017, 09:39:36 PM
Lol I quoted "American" literature here. 
But to answer your "serious" question the literature I quote is teaching material at the brewing schools. To top that off Kunze was updated in 2015 if I am not mistaken . So are you calling schooled brewers with degrees and phd's foolish for their coursework? Do you have recommendations for more current works? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I said I agreed with you bud. And a lot of stuff is taught in a lot of schools. Should it all be taken at face value?
When backed by empirical and repeatable data, yes. At least until new data proves otherwise.

Couldn't agree more, this is a big reason why I don't buy into all this homebrewers scale lodo stuff.
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on January 21, 2017, 09:41:42 PM
Lol I quoted "American" literature here. 
But to answer your "serious" question the literature I quote is teaching material at the brewing schools. To top that off Kunze was updated in 2015 if I am not mistaken . So are you calling schooled brewers with degrees and phd's foolish for their coursework? Do you have recommendations for more current works? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I said I agreed with you bud. And a lot of stuff is taught in a lot of schools. Should it all be taken at face value?
When backed by empirical and repeatable data, yes. At least until new data proves otherwise.

Couldn't agree more, this is a big reason why I don't buy into all this homebrewers scale lodo stuff.

I think you missed Stevie's point.
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Stevie on January 21, 2017, 09:43:47 PM
I honestly believe most of the Low Oxygen stuff is legit. I have worked some of it into my process, but I have too many other limitations to adopt it and test fully. For some the change in process may not be worth it, but that doesn't mean it's bunk.

Is there empirical evidence that showing that it doesn't matter at the homebrew scale? Sure lots of preferential and anecdotal evidence, but I haven't seen numbers against it.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 21, 2017, 10:27:47 PM
I honestly believe most of the Low Oxygen stuff is legit. I have worked some of it into my process, but I have too many other limitations to adopt it and test fully. For some the change in process may not be worth it, but that doesn't mean it's bunk.

Is there empirical evidence that showing that it doesn't matter at the homebrew scale? Sure lots of preferential and anecdotal evidence, but I haven't seen numbers against it.


Yeah. I get that things like autolysis aren't as big an issue as quickly at home because we only have a small fraction of the pressure on our yeast as Keith does at Yellowhammer. But as for oxidation, how could it not be a legit concern at home? The same oxidating air exists in the home as well as at a brewery. I've done a few batches now, and IMO oxidation/lodo is absolutely legit. I have 2 young Dunkels at just over 3 weeks now and the difference is stark. In a couple weeks when the beers are crystal clear, I'll do the triangle to see what others say.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: brewinhard on January 21, 2017, 11:32:02 PM
I honestly believe most of the Low Oxygen stuff is legit. I have worked some of it into my process, but I have too many other limitations to adopt it and test fully. For some the change in process may not be worth it, but that doesn't mean it's bunk.

Is there empirical evidence that showing that it doesn't matter at the homebrew scale? Sure lots of preferential and anecdotal evidence, but I haven't seen numbers against it.


Yeah. I get that things like autolysis aren't as big an issue as quickly at home because we only have a small fraction of the pressure on our yeast as Keith does at Yellowhammer. But as for oxidation, how could it not be a legit concern at home? The same oxidating air exists in the home as well as at a brewery. I've done a few batches now, and IMO oxidation/lodo is absolutely legit. I have 2 young Dunkels at just over 3 weeks now and the difference is stark. In a couple weeks when the beers are crystal clear, I'll do the triangle to see what others say.

Look forward to the results of that Jon. 
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: tommymorris on January 22, 2017, 02:39:09 AM
I honestly believe most of the Low Oxygen stuff is legit. I have worked some of it into my process, but I have too many other limitations to adopt it and test fully. For some the change in process may not be worth it, but that doesn't mean it's bunk.

Is there empirical evidence that showing that it doesn't matter at the homebrew scale? Sure lots of preferential and anecdotal evidence, but I haven't seen numbers against it.


Yeah. I get that things like autolysis aren't as big an issue as quickly at home because we only have a small fraction of the pressure on our yeast as Keith does at Yellowhammer. But as for oxidation, how could it not be a legit concern at home? The same oxidating air exists in the home as well as at a brewery. I've done a few batches now, and IMO oxidation/lodo is absolutely legit. I have 2 young Dunkels at just over 3 weeks now and the difference is stark. In a couple weeks when the beers are crystal clear, I'll do the triangle to see what others say.
I don't doubt that low dissolved oxygen brewing is generally a good thing. But, I would like to see a triangle test to see if the average drinker can taste the difference between brewer with a low dissolved oxygen process  and home brewed beer with a more typical amount of dissolved oxygen during brewing.

I brew 3 gallon batches that last 3-5 weeks in the keg. If the primary benefit of a low dissolved oxygen process is shelf life then maybe I don't need to bother.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 22, 2017, 02:57:22 AM
Thats right here. (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/the-infamous-low-oxygen-sensory-analysis/)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: bboy9000 on January 22, 2017, 03:15:30 AM
I brew 3 gallon batches that last 3-5 weeks in the keg. If the primary benefit of a low dissolved oxygen process is shelf life then maybe I don't need to bother.
I'm tired of my pale ales going stale after 1-2 weeks.  I just received my Hanna DO meter today.  I was going I break it in on a BoPils but this nearly empty keg of cardboard APA I'm finishing makes me want to brew it LODO.  I did over boil this batch tho.  By like 8 points. Oops.  It was my first brew at my new house and it was a late Friday night brew after a long week.  Many things likely went wrong.  Some had the stale flavor before though and in those cases it wasn't from aggressive boiling.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 22, 2017, 03:37:43 AM
Quote from: alestateyall link=topic=28551.msg374795#msg374795
I don't doubt that low dissolved oxygen brewing is generally a good thing. But, I would like to see a triangle test to see if the average drinker can taste the difference between brewer with a low dissolved oxygen process  and home brewed beer with a more typical amount of dissolved oxygen during brewing.



Well, that's my plan. I feel like I've noticed an obvious improvement but I want to see what a group of brewer friends think. As for the lodo process only extending shelf life, that's a misconception. The beer tastes better from the get go IMO. We'll see if the triangle backs that up.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on January 22, 2017, 03:59:53 AM
Quote from: alestateyall link=topic=28551.msg374795#msg374795
I don't doubt that low dissolved oxygen brewing is generally a good thing. But, I would like to see a triangle test to see if the average drinker can taste the difference between brewer with a low dissolved oxygen process  and home brewed beer with a more typical amount of dissolved oxygen during brewing.



Well, that's my plan. I feel like I've noticed an obvious improvement but I want to see what a group of brewer friends think. As for the lodo process only extending shelf life, that's a misconception. The beer tastes better from the get go IMO. We'll see if the triangle backs that up.

I am eagerly awaiting these results. I think it's important for these type of results to be verified independent of our opinions.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 22, 2017, 04:05:20 AM
Quote from: alestateyall link=topic=28551.msg374795#msg374795
I don't doubt that low dissolved oxygen brewing is generally a good thing. But, I would like to see a triangle test to see if the average drinker can taste the difference between brewer with a low dissolved oxygen process  and home brewed beer with a more typical amount of dissolved oxygen during brewing.



Well, that's my plan. I feel like I've noticed an obvious improvement but I want to see what a group of brewer friends think. As for the lodo process only extending shelf life, that's a misconception. The beer tastes better from the get go IMO. We'll see if the triangle backs that up.

I am eagerly awaiting these results. I think it's important for these type of results to be verified independent of our opinions.


Totally. I just want to be able to offer a data point whatever it is .
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: brewinhard on January 22, 2017, 07:27:28 PM
I brew 3 gallon batches that last 3-5 weeks in the keg. If the primary benefit of a low dissolved oxygen process is shelf life then maybe I don't need to bother.
I'm tired of my pale ales going stale after 1-2 weeks.  I just received my Hanna DO meter today.  I was going I break it in on a BoPils but this nearly empty keg of cardboard APA I'm finishing makes me want to brew it LODO.  I did over boil this batch tho.  By like 8 points. Oops.  It was my first brew at my new house and it was a late Friday night brew after a long week.  Many things likely went wrong.  Some had the stale flavor before though and in those cases it wasn't from aggressive boiling.

Besides other thing, do you have the ability to close transfer your finished beer from primary to keg?  I noticed a big improvement in my hoppy beer stability after switching to this.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: el_capitan on January 26, 2017, 01:07:34 AM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.

It does matter.  TBI is very real.

TBI?  I think the use of acronyms without definition come across as pretentious and divisive.  You can't assume everybody knows what the heck you're talking about.  When I first started reading the LODO thread, I was very turned off by all of the SMB, BtB, etc.  It's almost like you need to be "in the know" or part of some clique to even gain access to the info.  Not very helpful, IMO (in my opinion).   ;)
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 26, 2017, 01:16:50 AM
Acronyms are everywhere, and 99% of the time I don't even make them up ;) Take for example LODO. Hate the term and you will have NEVER see me use it! 

The link to what TBI( and TBA) is was like the 4th post in this thread.
But here it is again, cheers.

Thermal stress is placed on wort, more heavily so on long, excessively turbulent boils, resulting in excessive darkening of wort and may well impact malt flavor. Where advice used to be to target 10-15% evaporation, well under 10% evaporation may well ward off these effects. FWIW I get 7-8% evaporation.


Edit -   http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 26, 2017, 01:23:55 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170126/9a54cec5ec7b3bc37a0f682fbf802157.jpg)
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on January 26, 2017, 01:24:18 AM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.

It does matter.  TBI is very real.

TBI?  I think the use of acronyms without definition come across as pretentious and divisive.  You can't assume everybody knows what the heck you're talking about.  When I first started reading the LODO thread, I was very turned off by all of the SMB, BtB, etc.  It's almost like you need to be "in the know" or part of some clique to even gain access to the info.  Not very helpful, IMO (in my opinion).   ;)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170126/632620050e85fa9432f0f0e1995d2ca2.png)

Also, pretentious is a word people love to use without stopping to think if it applies to the person in question.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 26, 2017, 01:32:21 AM
Hear hear! Until I knew what TBI was my beer only scored 45 points.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on January 26, 2017, 01:35:39 AM
Hear hear! Until I knew what TBI was my beer only scored 45 points.

Do you Boil hard?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 26, 2017, 01:36:47 AM
TBI?  I think the use of acronyms without definition come across as pretentious and divisive.  You can't assume everybody knows what the heck you're talking about.  When I first started reading the LODO thread, I was very turned off by all of the SMB, BtB, etc.  It's almost like you need to be "in the know" or part of some clique to even gain access to the info.  Not very helpful, IMO (in my opinion).   ;)



SG, OG, FG, ADF, IBU, ABV, SRM, WY, WL, SS, EKG. FWIW, the tip of the iceberg here. Not exactly unprecedented.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 26, 2017, 01:44:54 AM
Hear hear! Until I knew what TBI was my beer only scored 45 points.

Do you Boil hard?
Dewy Cox hard!
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: riceral on January 26, 2017, 01:05:20 PM
Acronyms are everywhere, and 99% of the time I don't even make them up ;) Take for example LODO. Hate the term and you will have NEVER see me use it! 

The link to what TBI( and TBA) is was like the 4th post in this thread.
But here it is again, cheers.

Thermal stress is placed on wort, more heavily so on long, excessively turbulent boils, resulting in excessive darkening of wort and may well impact malt flavor. Where advice used to be to target 10-15% evaporation, well under 10% evaporation may well ward off these effects. FWIW I get 7-8% evaporation.


Edit -   http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-boiling/




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for the explanation.

Working in medicine and with a background in emergency medicine, I thought TBI stood for traumatic brain injury! I drew a link between beer and traumatic brain injury but couldn't see how boil temperatures had anything to do with it.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on January 26, 2017, 04:59:54 PM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.

It does matter.  TBI is very real.

TBI?  I think the use of acronyms without definition come across as pretentious and divisive.  You can't assume everybody knows what the heck you're talking about.  When I first started reading the LODO thread, I was very turned off by all of the SMB, BtB, etc.  It's almost like you need to be "in the know" or part of some clique to even gain access to the info.  Not very helpful, IMO (in my opinion).   ;)

TBI=Texas Brewing Inc., AFAIK.  ;)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 26, 2017, 07:08:53 PM
Hear hear! Until I knew what TBI was my beer only scored 45 points.

I routinely got feedback that by beers needed to be loaded with more sulfur on my scoresheets :)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on January 26, 2017, 07:17:30 PM
Hear hear! Until I knew what TBI was my beer only scored 45 points.

 8)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: mabrungard on January 26, 2017, 07:49:01 PM
After spending a few minutes reviewing what TBI and TBA are, it is very apparent that this is a well known effect in the big boy breweries. Extended or intense boiling can actually "pre-damage" the wort and make the resulting beer age quicker.

At the homebrew level where we probably keep our beer cooler and consume it sooner, this issue may be moot. But to provide your beers with longer shelf life, you do need to consider this. I will definitely be reviewing my practices and be making some changes.

Thanks for bringing this up, gentleman.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 26, 2017, 07:58:34 PM
After spending a few minutes reviewing what TBI and TBA are, it is very apparent that this is a well known effect in the big boy breweries. Extended or intense boiling can actually "pre-damage" the wort and make the resulting beer age quicker.

At the homebrew level where we probably keep our beer cooler and consume it sooner, this issue may be moot. But to provide your beers with longer shelf life, you do need to consider this. I will definitely be reviewing my practices and be making some changes.

Thanks for bringing this up, gentleman.
Accelerated staling is one issue, the others are flavor degradation, increased color pick up, oxidation, etc.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: beersk on January 26, 2017, 08:30:53 PM
After spending a few minutes reviewing what TBI and TBA are, it is very apparent that this is a well known effect in the big boy breweries. Extended or intense boiling can actually "pre-damage" the wort and make the resulting beer age quicker.

At the homebrew level where we probably keep our beer cooler and consume it sooner, this issue may be moot. But to provide your beers with longer shelf life, you do need to consider this. I will definitely be reviewing my practices and be making some changes.

Thanks for bringing this up, gentleman.
Accelerated staling is one issue, the others are flavor degradation, increased color pick up, oxidation, etc.
Another factor is, if a beer will be consumed within a month of kegging it, does it matter?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on January 26, 2017, 08:34:02 PM
After spending a few minutes reviewing what TBI and TBA are, it is very apparent that this is a well known effect in the big boy breweries. Extended or intense boiling can actually "pre-damage" the wort and make the resulting beer age quicker.

At the homebrew level where we probably keep our beer cooler and consume it sooner, this issue may be moot. But to provide your beers with longer shelf life, you do need to consider this. I will definitely be reviewing my practices and be making some changes.

Thanks for bringing this up, gentleman.

I appreciate how you've taken a simple yet obscure mention of an effect in brewing (TBI/TBA); done some quick, preliminary research; and provided some constructive feedback on the topic that's to-the-point.  Thanks for being classy, Martin - it truly shines!
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on January 26, 2017, 08:43:35 PM
After spending a few minutes reviewing what TBI and TBA are, it is very apparent that this is a well known effect in the big boy breweries. Extended or intense boiling can actually "pre-damage" the wort and make the resulting beer age quicker.

At the homebrew level where we probably keep our beer cooler and consume it sooner, this issue may be moot. But to provide your beers with longer shelf life, you do need to consider this. I will definitely be reviewing my practices and be making some changes.

Thanks for bringing this up, gentleman.
Accelerated staling is one issue, the others are flavor degradation, increased color pick up, oxidation, etc.
Another factor is, if a beer will be consumed within a month of kegging it, does it matter?

Valid point for those that consume kegs in that time frame.  Some kegs I'll finish within a month, some may take a few.  I have experienced degradation in beer quality fairly quickly in some kegs (1 week) while other kegs have held out much longer (many weeks).  The kind of degradation I experience is generally a loss of subtle-but-distinct malt or hop characteristics that are pleasurable in the beer; it's nothing earth-shattering, but it's an overall loss of quality from my standpoint.  I feel that some folks think of this low level of degradation as a "melding" of the beer constituents, and perceive it as a good thing (which it may very well be to their palate).  We all perceive things differently and that's why homebrewing is so cool!  8)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 26, 2017, 09:36:32 PM
After spending a few minutes reviewing what TBI and TBA are, it is very apparent that this is a well known effect in the big boy breweries. Extended or intense boiling can actually "pre-damage" the wort and make the resulting beer age quicker.

At the homebrew level where we probably keep our beer cooler and consume it sooner, this issue may be moot. But to provide your beers with longer shelf life, you do need to consider this. I will definitely be reviewing my practices and be making some changes.

Thanks for bringing this up, gentleman.
Accelerated staling is one issue, the others are flavor degradation, increased color pick up, oxidation, etc.
Another factor is, if a beer will be consumed within a month of kegging it, does it matter?

As I said accelerated staling is 1 issue, there are more that I listed. The beer is the sum of all parts.  ;)

We were able to easily identify boiling differences in the raw post boil wort immediately..Let alone the other things.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 26, 2017, 10:17:48 PM
http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/588a755b6b7ff/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00508.x.pdf%3Bjsessionid%3DE0B8EC321B494EF6CF5EEC024F972FA9.f03t01 (http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/588a755b6b7ff/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00508.x.pdf%3Bjsessionid%3DE0B8EC321B494EF6CF5EEC024F972FA9.f03t01)

Glad I Googled this TBA stuff. I will hold off on buying a flash pasteurization setup
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: beersk on January 27, 2017, 03:33:50 AM
After spending a few minutes reviewing what TBI and TBA are, it is very apparent that this is a well known effect in the big boy breweries. Extended or intense boiling can actually "pre-damage" the wort and make the resulting beer age quicker.

At the homebrew level where we probably keep our beer cooler and consume it sooner, this issue may be moot. But to provide your beers with longer shelf life, you do need to consider this. I will definitely be reviewing my practices and be making some changes.

Thanks for bringing this up, gentleman.
Accelerated staling is one issue, the others are flavor degradation, increased color pick up, oxidation, etc.
Another factor is, if a beer will be consumed within a month of kegging it, does it matter?

As I said accelerated staling is 1 issue, there are more that I listed. The beer is the sum of all parts.  ;)

We were able to easily identify boiling differences in the raw post boil wort immediately..Let alone the other things.
Yeah, yeah, I keep trying to circumnavigate that bit :) Not happening. No short cuts allowed in this method...
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: majorvices on January 27, 2017, 01:14:08 PM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.

It does matter.  TBI is very real.

I agree with you that most homebrewers "overboil", but serious question here, do you take every piece of 20th century German literature as gospel?

everyone knows Bryan is the gospel bringer on the forum now. Best not to ever argue with him despite personal experiences. Your brewing experience no longer matters. And we are all subject to ridicule because he has it all figured out. Let's all just shut the forum down and just follow whatever he says from now on. That way we will know what is what. ;)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: beersk on January 27, 2017, 01:50:11 PM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.

It does matter.  TBI is very real.

I agree with you that most homebrewers "overboil", but serious question here, do you take every piece of 20th century German literature as gospel?

everyone knows Bryan is the gospel bringer on the forum now. Best not to ever argue with him despite personal experiences. Your brewing experience no longer matters. And we are all subject to ridicule because he has it all figured out. Let's all just shut the forum down and just follow whatever he says from now on. That way we will know what is what. ;)
Bit of a troll post, no?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 27, 2017, 01:54:50 PM
You know if I have learned anything people wise from this whole ordeal its this... People are interesting creatures when it comes to information presented that challenges their beliefs and we have seen it in this thread. When presented with new facts people usually take 1 of 3 paths. They chose to actually research it then make an educated decision(for or against), not research it and make a decision(for or against), or do not research it and go straight to personal attacks. It says a lot about ones character which path one chooses.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: JJeffers09 on January 27, 2017, 03:20:00 PM
https://youtu.be/YDBKUCkg8cM
Podcast 121, Dr. Charlie Bamforth

There is better information from this 55 minute than anything thus far on the subject, IMHO.
Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 27, 2017, 04:35:50 PM
I thought this would be about the variation in temps with altitude. Hey, I am at -198 ft elevation right now. Those Colorado breweries boil at a lower temperature.

Boil vigor is more appropriate, no?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: 69franx on January 27, 2017, 05:03:55 PM
Sounds about right Jeff
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe T on January 27, 2017, 05:28:47 PM
I've read that a good boil really looks more like a simmer vs a volcano.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 - though I will say that it doesn't really matter except for your evaporation rate calculation 9and possible scortching if it gets insanely hot). You really can't boil too hard. The boil won't get hotter than 212 (depending on your elevation obviously). A gentle roiling boil will give you everything you need and save you gas and from having to top off with water at the end. On my 14 gallon kettle I can get the wort about a half inch from the top of the kettle and boil for 90 minutes without having a boil over (well, mostly.) Just got to gently feather that gas regulator.

It does matter.  TBI is very real.

I agree with you that most homebrewers "overboil", but serious question here, do you take every piece of 20th century German literature as gospel?

everyone knows Bryan is the gospel bringer on the forum now. Best not to ever argue with him despite personal experiences. Your brewing experience no longer matters. And we are all subject to ridicule because he has it all figured out. Let's all just shut the forum down and just follow whatever he says from now on. That way we will know what is what. ;)

https://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: mabrungard on January 27, 2017, 07:39:03 PM
I thought this would be about the variation in temps with altitude. Hey, I am at -198 ft elevation right now. Those Colorado breweries boil at a lower temperature.

Boil vigor is more appropriate, no?

There are low vacuum brewing systems available to the big boys.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 27, 2017, 10:10:31 PM
You know if I have learned anything people wise from this whole ordeal its this... People are interesting creatures when it comes to information presented that challenges their beliefs and we have seen it in this thread. When presented with new facts people usually take 1 of 3 paths. They chose to actually research it then make an educated decision(for or against), not research it and make a decision(for or against), or do not research it and go straight to personal attacks. It says a lot about ones character which path one chooses.

how does the old saying go, "if you smell stink everywhere you go, best to check your own shoes first.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe T on January 27, 2017, 10:23:27 PM
You know if I have learned anything people wise from this whole ordeal its this... People are interesting creatures when it comes to information presented that challenges their beliefs and we have seen it in this thread. When presented with new facts people usually take 1 of 3 paths. They chose to actually research it then make an educated decision(for or against), not research it and make a decision(for or against), or do not research it and go straight to personal attacks. It says a lot about ones character which path one chooses.

how does the old saying go, "if you smell stink everywhere you go, best to check your own shoes first.

https://goo.gl/images/5uU6PD
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on January 27, 2017, 11:29:31 PM
You know if I have learned anything people wise from this whole ordeal its this... People are interesting creatures when it comes to information presented that challenges their beliefs and we have seen it in this thread. When presented with new facts people usually take 1 of 3 paths. They chose to actually research it then make an educated decision(for or against), not research it and make a decision(for or against), or do not research it and go straight to personal attacks. It says a lot about ones character which path one chooses.

how does the old saying go, "if you smell stink everywhere you go, best to check your own shoes first.

This coming from the person who just posted:

A friend of mine is a parole agent, and he talks to some pretty crazy people at work that are violent and unstable, and part of his job is telling them the are getting a parole violation and going to jail. Needless to say, this is sure to not go over well with people that are already unstable and violent, yet he rarely gets in altercations with the parolees. His secret-it's in the delivery. He can tell people precisely what they don't want to hear so long as he delivers the message well.

I tell this story because I think the root cause of the occasional conflict here isn't that people have differing brewing practices, but that the delivery of certain messages is flawed.

You can be as right as rain on a subject, but if you come across as a jerk while doing it, you probably won't be received well.


You may very well be the worst offending member on this forum of your own quote.  Your angst towards some of the most vocal low oxygen brewers and low oxy brewing practices is perfectly clear; there's no hiding in plain sight on this one.  Message NOT received and, in turn, ...
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Stevie on January 28, 2017, 12:34:41 AM
You know if I have learned anything people wise from this whole ordeal its this... People are interesting creatures when it comes to information presented that challenges their beliefs and we have seen it in this thread. When presented with new facts people usually take 1 of 3 paths. They chose to actually research it then make an educated decision(for or against), not research it and make a decision(for or against), or do not research it and go straight to personal attacks. It says a lot about ones character which path one chooses.

how does the old saying go, "if you smell stink everywhere you go, best to check your own shoes first.
How have you not been kicked?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Phil_M on January 28, 2017, 12:37:05 AM
You know if I have learned anything people wise from this whole ordeal its this... People are interesting creatures when it comes to information presented that challenges their beliefs and we have seen it in this thread. When presented with new facts people usually take 1 of 3 paths. They chose to actually research it then make an educated decision(for or against), not research it and make a decision(for or against), or do not research it and go straight to personal attacks. It says a lot about ones character which path one chooses.

how does the old saying go, "if you smell stink everywhere you go, best to check your own shoes first.
How have you not been kicked?

I'm going to speak up on this too: I agree. While back, the whole forum had pitchforks out when Bryan acted this way. He seems to be making an effort to tone things down, then we have this. Can it, this forum doesn't need trolling.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 28, 2017, 05:16:32 AM
I know this much. There isn't one single thing about my brewing that someone else didn't figure out way before I did. Very little that I do did I actually figure out on my own. Almost all of it was handed to me. I try to remember that when I start thinking it's "my" knowledge.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: homoeccentricus on January 28, 2017, 09:01:11 AM
You know if I have learned anything people wise from this whole ordeal its this... People are interesting creatures when it comes to information presented that challenges their beliefs and we have seen it in this thread. When presented with new facts people usually take 1 of 3 paths. They chose to actually research it then make an educated decision(for or against), not research it and make a decision(for or against), or do not research it and go straight to personal attacks. It says a lot about ones character which path one chooses.

how does the old saying go, "if you smell stink everywhere you go, best to check your own shoes first.
How have you not been kicked?
I agree. We can now see the direct negative impact on the health of this forum. One can only speculate why the powers that be on this forum tolerate this. Gloomy thoughts.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: narvin on January 28, 2017, 12:49:57 PM
To get back on topic....

In my experience, I do see differences in wort darkening based on boil intensity.  I'm using a direct fire system, and at hombrew scale the kettle bottom in contact with the wort has a very high surface to volume ratio. 
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on January 28, 2017, 12:50:14 PM
I know this much. There isn't one single thing about my brewing that someone else didn't figure out way before I did. Very little that I do did I actually figure out on my own. Almost all of it was handed to me. I try to remember that when I start thinking it's "my" knowledge.

That's a very literal read of that quote applied to this situation Jim.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: majorvices on January 28, 2017, 01:22:43 PM
Folks, this has to stop. This has gone from a forum where everyone comes in to share brewing knowledge and experience to a place were 1 out of every 10 posts is hijacked and subjectively over ruled based on 1 or 2 people's text book readings. No one's experience matters any longer. You can have a gold medal winning beer at the World Beer Cup but is will be flawed because 1 or 2 folks on this forum has determined that, based on what they have read, you didn't brew it right. It is utterly ridiculous.

If your gig is LODO brewing, that is great! Keep doing it and keep preaching it brother's and sisters! But stop coming onto this forum and telling everyone else is f'ing doing it wrong. Disagree, but stop doing it by screaming "WRONG" and then discrediting based on some arcane science that no one but you has uncovered in some brewing science book no one has read. If you have such knowledge, please bring it out and discuss it. But acting as if YOU personally are the sole arbiter of brewing knowledge will not be tolerated any longer. Period. And YOU know who I am talking about.

This is a forum for ALL levels of brewing. From the very first pitch of yeast to understanding water chemistry to complex microbiology. What has happened is this: A new person posts a question. Answers are given. Then one or two people come in with some seriously challenging and arcane (and frankly, ancient) challenges to simple answers to simple questions that, in the end, make this brewing thing seem so much freaking harder that it really is. And, while I really am digging the science aspect, it is UNWELCOMING. Brewing homebrewed beer can be as simple or complex as you want to make it. There are people making good beer with store bought extract and the yeast under the lid. Period. There are people making all grain beers out of 2000 dollar machines that is CRAP. Period. It doesn't freaking matter if you disagree with their methods of brewing or not. If the beer is good it is GOOD. If it isn't, find a nice damn way of telling them.

The goal of this forum is for people to come here to learn how to brew great beer. It is why I am a moderator here. It is why I contribute here. It isn't something I have to do. It is something I want to do. I want to see this forum succeed. I want to welcome new people here. I freaking want CHALLENGES! The more science the better! In spite of the fact that I am a brewmaster at a brewery distributed state wide, I am seriously challenged when it comes to much of the brewing science discussed here. I don't understand much of it, yet manage to churn out award winning beers anyway.

Like all crafts, what makes this fascination great is that no matter what your skill level and no matter what your brewing knowledge, there is always room for improvement and learning. I love it! But we also have to keep room for the new folks coming it. And this constant bickering is ridiculous.

I personally won't tolerate it any more. I have been a mod here since this forum started. I am also fine being removed from that post if necessary. There are hard and fast rules about being a member here. And, while no rules have been broken necessarily, I am moved to action by my personal belief that we are starting to have serious divisive disagreements that are not only detrimental to the forum society, but are also becoming extremely unwelcome to the newcomer.

Seriously, it stops now. Sharing knowledge is completely encouraged. Being a Nazi is not.
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on January 31, 2017, 01:41:56 AM
I would say that boil temps ultimately matter in regards to what temperature is takes to get a slight simmer going. That temperature is different for people living in different elevations and one should aim for whatever temperature allows for a boil vigor on the order of a slight simmer.

I guess the caveat being if the style calls for large amounts of evaporation (Scottish), etc. I don't personally brew any styles that would require an intense boil-off but some may do that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: bboy9000 on January 31, 2017, 04:30:13 AM
To me boil temp matters for consistently hitting OG which contributes to fg.  I brewed my first batch at my new house and due to environmental variables boiled too hard and had 4 gallons 1.062 OG pale ale instead of 5 gallons 1.052 APA.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: JJeffers09 on January 31, 2017, 03:47:34 PM
I would say that boil temps ultimately matter in regards to what temperature is takes to get a slight simmer going. That temperature is different for people living in different elevations and one should aim for whatever temperature allows for a boil vigor on the order of a slight simmer.

I guess the caveat being if the style calls for large amounts of evaporation (Scottish), etc. I don't personally brew any styles that would require an intense boil-off but some may do that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Most texts suggest a 5-6% evaporation rate, and the right isomerization of hop resins, oils, and polyphenols. Which a vigorous boil you get more break material and provides the appropriate amount of protein, MgSO4-N, and FAN/L.  Then there is thermal stress on the wort drives off negative flavors. ~Kunze 3.4
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 31, 2017, 05:07:20 PM
After kicking this around a bit I think I will try a less vigorous boil on my next brew day. My current way is not ridiculously vigorous to begin with, but it's not terribly hard to simply look in the BK and turn the knob down a little. Plus I just switched from 10lb propane tanks to 30lb, so I might need to anyway. I always estimate 10% boil off, but I find it varies a little depending on humidity, temperature, wind etc. I'm not very anal about precisely hitting gravity targets either, within 5pts doesn't really bug me. So I'll try boiling just above a simmer next time.

I'm also going to try no sparge next brew day. One batch normal procedure, one no sparge. Maybe I'll let the normal one rip on the boil, and throttle back the no sparge one.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on January 31, 2017, 05:13:28 PM
I would say that boil temps ultimately matter in regards to what temperature is takes to get a slight simmer going. That temperature is different for people living in different elevations and one should aim for whatever temperature allows for a boil vigor on the order of a slight simmer.

I guess the caveat being if the style calls for large amounts of evaporation (Scottish), etc. I don't personally brew any styles that would require an intense boil-off but some may do that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Most texts suggest a 5-6% evaporation rate, and the right isomerization of hop resins, oils, and polyphenols. Which a vigorous boil you get more break material and provides the appropriate amount of protein, MgSO4-N, and FAN/L.  Then there is thermal stress on the wort drives off negative flavors. ~Kunze 3.4

That's the right section but not sure about your interpretation. Chapter 3 is a gem.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 31, 2017, 07:42:03 PM
I would say that boil temps ultimately matter in regards to what temperature is takes to get a slight simmer going. That temperature is different for people living in different elevations and one should aim for whatever temperature allows for a boil vigor on the order of a slight simmer.

I guess the caveat being if the style calls for large amounts of evaporation (Scottish), etc. I don't personally brew any styles that would require an intense boil-off but some may do that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Most texts suggest a 5-6% evaporation rate, and the right isomerization of hop resins, oils, and polyphenols. Which a vigorous boil you get more break material and provides the appropriate amount of protein, MgSO4-N, and FAN/L.  Then there is thermal stress on the wort drives off negative flavors. ~Kunze 3.4
Actually, Kunze states...
"By reducing the length of boiling, boiling more gently at a lower temperature and formingfewer shear forces, more coagulable nitrogen remains in the wort giving rise to the expectationof better foam retention. 20-40 mgcoagulable nitrogen/litre cold wort is desirable. At the same time, the formation of ageing relevant
substances is reduced.

And

Only a few decades ago a high rate of evaporation was therefore a criterion for the quality of a wort kettle, and a kettle with a rate of evaporation of 10-15 % of the wort content was considered to be a high performance kettle. In the meantime this has changed, as will
be shown. Today a rate of evaporation of 4 % is aimed for with good evaporation efficiency."

There is more as well. Not trying to pick a fight, just showing what I have found.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 31, 2017, 07:44:38 PM
Here is a "side by side" of worts with regards to boiling.

 Color pick up (http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=440)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: mabrungard on January 31, 2017, 08:00:34 PM
I'm not sure if the pre and post boil color comparison is truly valid since there is a significant increase of wort solids and sugars. That would increase color by itself. But I do agree that the heating intensity should increase the darkening. We just need a better test and result in order to make the comparison.

5 to 6% is teeny compared to typical homebrewing results. I've heard that keeping it below 8% is recommended on pro systems. We are probably 2 or 3 times that. The common lore to keep the kettle uncovered is a big reason why our loss rates are too high. I keep my lid about 2/3 on and I still have too much loss. My wort is only slightly rolling, so it looks like I need to cover up a little more.

I've learned new stuff in this thread! 
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on January 31, 2017, 08:01:43 PM
Bryan, are you still using a covered pot during the boil (i.e. the video on your facebook shows a lid that has a pie-shaped sliding piece that you can view into the boiling wort)?  And, if so, do you keep the wort covered for the entire boil?  I'm wondering about the potential for that to lead to DMS/SMM retention in the wort.  I ask because for a couple batches last year I attempted a similar, covered-boil and the results were not great (not terrible, but certainly not an improvement from my process at the time).  I've quickly moved back to open pot with reduced vigor, generally exceeding 10% evap by a small amount, and have liked the results pretty well.  I'm looking to revisit a lower-evap, lower-vigor, lower-stress boil but would want to avoid the "not great" results of last year.  Cheers!

Edit: I should mention that the "not great" results from last years couple batches very much seemed DMS-related. My impression what a slight cooked vegetable character. I'm not sure other folks picked up on it, but I certainly noticed it.  It's entirely possible that I misdiagnosed my beers and it was just a recipe formation issue on my part.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 31, 2017, 08:22:30 PM
Bryan, are you still using a covered pot during the boil (i.e. the video on your facebook shows a lid that has a pie-shaped sliding piece that you can view into the boiling wort)?  And, if so, do you keep the wort covered for the entire boil?  I'm wondering about the potential for that to lead to DMS/SMM retention in the wort.  I ask because for a couple batches last year I attempted a similar, covered-boil and the results were not great (not terrible, but certainly not an improvement from my process at the time).  I've quickly moved back to open pot with reduced vigor, generally exceeding 10% evap by a small amount, and have liked the results pretty well.  I'm looking to revisit a lower-evap, lower-vigor, lower-stress boil but would want to avoid the "not great" results of last year.  Cheers!

Edit: I should mention that the "not great" results from last years couple batches very much seemed DMS-related. My impression what a slight cooked vegetable character. I'm not sure other folks picked up on it, but I certainly noticed it.  It's entirely possible that I misdiagnosed my beers and it was just a recipe formation issue on my part.

I do still use the lid.  I do still boil completely under the lid. I get about 6-7% boiloff. I do remove the lid for the chilling whirlpool, and don't replace it under the wort is under 100F. DMS is a concern. I have found I can pick it up in the wort very easily and its about gone with 10-15 minutes left in the boil ( 60 minutes). If you don't pick it up in boil, I would bet its coming from the chilling/whirlpool portion. 10% and below is something I shoot for.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 31, 2017, 08:28:35 PM
I'm not sure if the pre and post boil color comparison is truly valid since there is a significant increase of wort solids and sugars. That would increase color by itself. But I do agree that the heating intensity should increase the darkening. We just need a better test and result in order to make the comparison.

5 to 6% is teeny compared to typical homebrewing results. I've heard that keeping it below 8% is recommended on pro systems. We are probably 2 or 3 times that. The common lore to keep the kettle uncovered is a big reason why our loss rates are too high. I keep my lid about 2/3 on and I still have too much loss. My wort is only slightly rolling, so it looks like I need to cover up a little more.

I've learned new stuff in this thread!

I see about 1srm color pick up from boil. If I boil any harder than that, I notice immediate flavor degradation. That flavor for me that I get right away is what I call a boil hop flavor... Kinda vegetally, kind of smokey, like scorched hops, its not in your face, but I can pick it up. Just be careful about too soft of a boil, I had many a batches with DMS until I got it dialed in. I would call 8% the sweet spot for us.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on January 31, 2017, 08:35:24 PM
Bryan, are you still using a covered pot during the boil (i.e. the video on your facebook shows a lid that has a pie-shaped sliding piece that you can view into the boiling wort)?  And, if so, do you keep the wort covered for the entire boil?  I'm wondering about the potential for that to lead to DMS/SMM retention in the wort.  I ask because for a couple batches last year I attempted a similar, covered-boil and the results were not great (not terrible, but certainly not an improvement from my process at the time).  I've quickly moved back to open pot with reduced vigor, generally exceeding 10% evap by a small amount, and have liked the results pretty well.  I'm looking to revisit a lower-evap, lower-vigor, lower-stress boil but would want to avoid the "not great" results of last year.  Cheers!

Edit: I should mention that the "not great" results from last years couple batches very much seemed DMS-related. My impression what a slight cooked vegetable character. I'm not sure other folks picked up on it, but I certainly noticed it.  It's entirely possible that I misdiagnosed my beers and it was just a recipe formation issue on my part.

I do still use the lid.  I do still boil completely under the lid. I get about 6-7% boiloff. I do remove the lid for the chilling whirlpool, and don't replace it under the wort is under 100F. DMS is a concern. I have found I can pick it up in the wort very easily and its about gone with 10-15 minutes left in the boil ( 60 minutes). If you don't pick it up in boil, I would bet its coming from the chilling/whirlpool portion. 10% and below is something I shoot for.

Thanks for your response, coupled with the reply to martin, I'll aim for an 8% evap rate on my next batch and see how it goes.  One more question, if you don't mind: The lid you're using doesn't vent the steam somehow does it? (like having a vent/vacuum port on the lid that's sucking out steam throughout the entire boil)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on January 31, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Bryan, are you still using a covered pot during the boil (i.e. the video on your facebook shows a lid that has a pie-shaped sliding piece that you can view into the boiling wort)?  And, if so, do you keep the wort covered for the entire boil?  I'm wondering about the potential for that to lead to DMS/SMM retention in the wort.  I ask because for a couple batches last year I attempted a similar, covered-boil and the results were not great (not terrible, but certainly not an improvement from my process at the time).  I've quickly moved back to open pot with reduced vigor, generally exceeding 10% evap by a small amount, and have liked the results pretty well.  I'm looking to revisit a lower-evap, lower-vigor, lower-stress boil but would want to avoid the "not great" results of last year.  Cheers!

Edit: I should mention that the "not great" results from last years couple batches very much seemed DMS-related. My impression what a slight cooked vegetable character. I'm not sure other folks picked up on it, but I certainly noticed it.  It's entirely possible that I misdiagnosed my beers and it was just a recipe formation issue on my part.

I do still use the lid.  I do still boil completely under the lid. I get about 6-7% boiloff. I do remove the lid for the chilling whirlpool, and don't replace it under the wort is under 100F. DMS is a concern. I have found I can pick it up in the wort very easily and its about gone with 10-15 minutes left in the boil ( 60 minutes). If you don't pick it up in boil, I would bet its coming from the chilling/whirlpool portion. 10% and below is something I shoot for.

Thanks for your response, coupled with the reply to martin, I'll aim for an 8% evap rate on my next batch and see how it goes.  One more question, if you don't mind: The lid you're using doesn't vent the steam somehow does it? (like having a vent/vacuum port on the lid that's sucking out steam throughout the entire boil)

No it does not, and I see where you are going. ;)
I did not notice any issues with "drip back" or condensation, but again YMMV, FWIW, IMO, ETC.  8)

Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on January 31, 2017, 09:49:19 PM
I'm not sure if the pre and post boil color comparison is truly valid since there is a significant increase of wort solids and sugars. That would increase color by itself. But I do agree that the heating intensity should increase the darkening. We just need a better test and result in order to make the comparison.

5 to 6% is teeny compared to typical homebrewing results. I've heard that keeping it below 8% is recommended on pro systems. We are probably 2 or 3 times that. The common lore to keep the kettle uncovered is a big reason why our loss rates are too high. I keep my lid about 2/3 on and I still have too much loss. My wort is only slightly rolling, so it looks like I need to cover up a little more.

I've learned new stuff in this thread!

I had the same thought about concentration.  Glad to see I'm not a dolt.

I guess I've been lucky with stove top brewing in that it's pretty hard to make the boil jump with a typical burner.  I still get more then 10% boil-off, though, even with a partially covered pot.

When I'm brewing outdoors, it's much harder to manage the boil.  Or, more accurately, it takes more monitoring and adjustment.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on January 31, 2017, 10:06:51 PM
No it does not, and I see where you are going. ;)
I did not notice any issues with "drip back" or condensation, but again YMMV, FWIW, IMO, ETC.  8)

Thanks again for sharing.  I just wanted to make sure that a plain and simple pot lid wasn't an oversight only to find out later that you in fact vented the steam generated during the boil. I (somewhat reluctantly) look forward to taking another stab at a mostly covered boil.  Now I have some recipe and process modifications to make with the new reduced evap rate I'll be shooting for.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: ynotbrusum on January 31, 2017, 11:36:04 PM
I was off the forum for about a week and was wondering what had happened in the other threads, but now I see.  Glad this thread is back on topic.  I have gone to a gentler boil with the lid on 3/4 or more, but not from anything stated in this thread - I just wanted more wort, so I end up with more beer to fill the cornies up fully when it is done.  My boil off rate had been just too high (like 12 -15%).  So occasionally one stumbles onto a process that helps in more than one way...by the way, I do occasionally remove the lid during the boil to let off some steam and drip off some condensate (DMS worries plague me regardless - old habit...) and I leave the lid off of the kettle during the chill down as my brew guru said failing to do that is almost a sure way for DMS to form in the few minutes of chilling.  Could be true and I don't want to risk a batch to find that one out.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 01, 2017, 12:11:53 AM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: narcout on February 01, 2017, 01:39:03 AM
I'm confused about the point of the partially covered boil.  It reduces evaporation loss, but it doesn't reduce heat stress does it (the liquid is still being boiled off, you're just recovering some of it)? 
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 01, 2017, 01:40:38 AM
Well in my case, because I cover the pot it allows me to lower the power of the boiling element to help with heat stress AND evaporation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 01, 2017, 03:05:59 AM
It should reduce the amount of energy you're using, electric or gas, as you're not losing as much heat.

Whether that helps with heat stress, I have no idea.

I assume it reduces boil off, but I haven't done any actual testing to be sure.  It must, right?  Right?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: natebrews on February 01, 2017, 03:10:23 AM
There was a brulosophy experiment on boiling with a lid on or off.  They found the same boil off rate with it on or off (there is a picture of the post boil pot volumes for the two), though they did get a small gravity difference between the two.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/31/the-boil-lid-on-vs-lid-off-exbeeriment-results/

I didn't see it on the page, but I thought on one of the podcasts they were on with respect to this experiment, they said that they had it lab tested and got the same DMS readings for both, zero.  But like I said, I didn't see it on the writeup.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: erockrph on February 01, 2017, 04:39:20 AM
There was a brulosophy experiment on boiling with a lid on or off.  They found the same boil off rate with it on or off (there is a picture of the post boil pot volumes for the two), though they did get a small gravity difference between the two.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/31/the-boil-lid-on-vs-lid-off-exbeeriment-results/

I didn't see it on the page, but I thought on one of the podcasts they were on with respect to this experiment, they said that they had it lab tested and got the same DMS readings for both, zero.  But like I said, I didn't see it on the writeup.
This doesn't surprise me. I think DMS is a much smaller issue than it has been made out to be. I do long, covered hop stands at anywhere from 190F down to 120F and never detected DMS. I think there is likely a limited number of base malts where DMS may be a concern, but I think in general the risk is overblown.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on February 01, 2017, 04:23:46 PM
I think that was Basic Brewing Radio back in December. Going from memory only, it was a berlinerweiss, no one, or not enough, detected DMS, but the lab found low levels in both.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 01, 2017, 04:28:15 PM
I was able to repeatably get DMS when trying to dial in my boil stuff one way or another. I know it stopped with an upped boil off, and a lid removal at flame out. Some was real bad and even effect heat retention.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on February 01, 2017, 04:40:02 PM
When I was thinking about trying out the short boil for pils malt I recall reading Kai suggesting a covered simmer finished with a short uncovered full boil. I've not tried it but it gave me courage to try the 60 min boil.

Honestly, I think it takes some effort to get DMS in a final beer.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 01, 2017, 04:46:36 PM
When I was thinking about trying out the short boil for pils malt I recall reading Kai suggesting a covered simmer finished with a short uncovered full boil. I've not tried it but it gave me courage to try the 60 min boil.

Honestly, I think it takes some effort to get DMS in a final beer.


Jim, FWIW I brew 60 mins with pils malt all the time. Zero issues.

Edit - Misread. I thought the 'courage to try' part meant the 60 min boil, not the covered simmer. My bad.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on February 01, 2017, 04:52:32 PM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet that's my go to malt and I don't get any DMS from it.  Wonder why.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 01, 2017, 04:53:17 PM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet that's my go to malt and I don't get any DMS from it.  Wonder why.

My low boil off rates and thermal stress.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on February 01, 2017, 04:55:32 PM
When I was thinking about trying out the short boil for pils malt I recall reading Kai suggesting a covered simmer finished with a short uncovered full boil. I've not tried it but it gave me courage to try the 60 min boil.

Honestly, I think it takes some effort to get DMS in a final beer.


Jim, FWIW I brew 60 mins with pils malt all the time. Zero issues.

Edit - Misread. I thought the 'courage to try' part meant the 60 min boil, not the covered simmer. My bad.
For clarification
Since the 60min boil debate and the first BrĂ¼-spearimint on it, I've been boiling everything 60min. I cover till I am reaching boil, then I put a cover back on at flameout/chill/whirlpool etc.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 01, 2017, 04:55:43 PM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet that's my go to malt and I don't get any DMS from it.  Wonder why.
Some yeast strains produce more DMS than others.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on February 01, 2017, 04:58:52 PM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet that's my go to malt and I don't get any DMS from it.  Wonder why.
Some yeast strains produce more DMS than others.

I always use 2124 and 2206 for lagers and 3787 or 1762 if I'm doing Belgians with it.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on February 01, 2017, 05:18:56 PM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet that's my go to malt and I don't get any DMS from it.  Wonder why.

I would make the assumption that Bryan's boil vigor and evaporation rate are much lower than yours, and it's your increased vigor and evap that's ensuring a thorough "scrubbing" of DMS and its precursors.  If true, this would reinforce the usual recommendation to homebrewers of increased boil vigor and evap rates to help ensure that issue doesn't crop up (i.e. safe over sorry).  The flip side could be that some malt "nuance" is lost/altered with the increased vigor/evap, but to reduce it then you begin "playing close enough to the fire that you might get burned" so "enter at your own risk" signs should be posted.  Something like that. :D
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on February 01, 2017, 05:19:13 PM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet that's my go to malt and I don't get any DMS from it.  Wonder why.

My low boil off rates and thermal stress.

The differences in process here could definitely play a role. A more robust, uncovered boil is likely to drive off more of the DMS than the lower energy, partially covered boil.

EDIT: stpug got there before I did  ;)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 01, 2017, 05:37:51 PM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet that's my go to malt and I don't get any DMS from it.  Wonder why.

I would make the assumption that Bryan's boil vigor and evaporation rate are much lower than yours, and it's your increased vigor and evap that's ensuring a thorough "scrubbing" of DMS and its precursors.  If true, this would reinforce the usual recommendation to homebrewers of increased boil vigor and evap rates to help ensure that issue doesn't crop up (i.e. safe over sorry).  The flip side could be that some malt "nuance" is lost/altered with the increased vigor/evap, but to reduce it then you begin "playing close enough to the fire that you might get burned" so "enter at your own risk" signs should be posted.  Something like that. :D


Exactly correct.
4% boil off for me is too low(DMS CITY!), 5% slight DMS, 6% means I need a 70 minute boil, 7% is what I shoot for(right on the edge, but I brew in a temperature and humidity controlled brewery that is always 67F and 35% humidity, so its easy to replicate), and 8% is a solid number, but I noticed flavor degradation, and increased color pickup. That goes for every % point I went up from 4%. I am chasing the .5% and less now though, so it takes to some pretty weird places.  :o
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: brewinhard on February 01, 2017, 07:47:40 PM
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet that's my go to malt and I don't get any DMS from it.  Wonder why.

I would make the assumption that Bryan's boil vigor and evaporation rate are much lower than yours, and it's your increased vigor and evap that's ensuring a thorough "scrubbing" of DMS and its precursors.  If true, this would reinforce the usual recommendation to homebrewers of increased boil vigor and evap rates to help ensure that issue doesn't crop up (i.e. safe over sorry).  The flip side could be that some malt "nuance" is lost/altered with the increased vigor/evap, but to reduce it then you begin "playing close enough to the fire that you might get burned" so "enter at your own risk" signs should be posted.  Something like that. :D


Exactly correct.
4% boil off for me is too low(DMS CITY!), 5% slight DMS, 6% means I need a 70 minute boil, 7% is what I shoot for(right on the edge, but I brew in a temperature and humidity controlled brewery that is always 67F and 35% humidity, so its easy to replicate), and 8% is a solid number, but I noticed flavor degradation, and increased color pickup. That goes for every % point I went up from 4%. I am chasing the .5% and less now though, so it takes to some pretty weird places.  :o

Jesus, and I'm just trying to hit some proper final volumes with this. Ha!  I got a ways to go.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: mabrungard on February 01, 2017, 09:00:26 PM
With SMM and DMS being evolved throughout the boil, it seems like a covered boil for most of the period followed with a short and more vigorous open boil would serve to reduce thermal stress and eject the DMS.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: klickitat jim on February 01, 2017, 09:24:17 PM
With SMM and DMS being evolved throughout the boil, it seems like a covered boil for most of the period followed with a short and more vigorous open boil would serve to reduce thermal stress and eject the DMS.
It seems to me what Kai suggested way back when
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 02, 2017, 04:30:04 PM
With SMM and DMS being evolved throughout the boil, it seems like a covered boil for most of the period followed with a short and more vigorous open boil would serve to reduce thermal stress and eject the DMS.
It seems to me what Kai suggested way back when

Kai was very close to the elusiveness, he missed it by "that" much. Much love for Kai. He had all the books ( Narziss and Kunze, etc) but just couldn't make it all come together... Or maybe he could and thats why he vanished!?!?!?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on February 02, 2017, 04:41:27 PM
Kai was very close to the elusiveness, he missed it by "that" much. Much love for Kai. He had all the books ( Narziss and Kunze, etc) but just couldn't make it all come together... Or maybe he could and thats why he vanished!?!?!?

Kai vanished due to work and family.  There was a bit more to it, also, but I'd rather not get into that.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 02, 2017, 04:44:21 PM
Kai vanished due to work and family.

Are you suggesting that there are people who have lives beyond the forum?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 02, 2017, 04:53:12 PM
Kai was very close to the elusiveness, he missed it by "that" much. Much love for Kai. He had all the books ( Narziss and Kunze, etc) but just couldn't make it all come together... Or maybe he could and thats why he vanished!?!?!?

Kai vanished due to work and family.  There was a bit more to it, also, but I'd rather not get into that.

It was a joke  ;)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on February 02, 2017, 04:58:45 PM
Kai vanished due to work and family.

Are you suggesting that there are people who have lives beyond the forum?

Imagine!
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 02, 2017, 04:59:48 PM
Kai vanished due to work and family.

Are you suggesting that there are people who have lives beyond the forum?

Imagine!

I try...  Sadly the forum is as close to brewing as I have been in months.  Perhaps tomorrow.  I have the day off.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on February 02, 2017, 05:50:25 PM

I try...  Sadly the forum is as close to brewing as I have been in months.  Perhaps tomorrow.  I have the day off.

I know the feeling.  Yesterday was the first time in 2 months that I'd brewed at all and the first time in 6 months that I brewed for myself and enjoyment.  No experiments, no testing of equipment, ingredients, or process...just plain old school brewing for the fun of it.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: bayareabrewer on February 02, 2017, 05:51:28 PM

I try...  Sadly the forum is as close to brewing as I have been in months.  Perhaps tomorrow.  I have the day off.

I know the feeling.  Yesterday was the first time in 2 months that I'd brewed at all and the first time in 6 months that I brewed for myself and enjoyment.  No experiments, no testing of equipment, ingredients, or process...just plain old school brewing for the fun of it.

what'd you brew?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on February 02, 2017, 07:03:56 PM

I try...  Sadly the forum is as close to brewing as I have been in months.  Perhaps tomorrow.  I have the day off.

I know the feeling.  Yesterday was the first time in 2 months that I'd brewed at all and the first time in 6 months that I brewed for myself and enjoyment.  No experiments, no testing of equipment, ingredients, or process...just plain old school brewing for the fun of it.

what'd you brew?

BDSA with 2 lb. of D240 candi syrup.  I brewed HIDO.  ;)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: narcout on February 02, 2017, 07:06:46 PM
BDSA with 2 lb. of D240 candi syrup.

Any clue when that stuff is going to be available to the masses?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: denny on February 02, 2017, 07:58:43 PM
BDSA with 2 lb. of D240 candi syrup.

Any clue when that stuff is going to be available to the masses?

They say fall 2016 so it should be out there....http://www.candisyrup.com/products.html
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 02, 2017, 08:45:14 PM

I try...  Sadly the forum is as close to brewing as I have been in months.  Perhaps tomorrow.  I have the day off.

I know the feeling.  Yesterday was the first time in 2 months that I'd brewed at all and the first time in 6 months that I brewed for myself and enjoyment.  No experiments, no testing of equipment, ingredients, or process...just plain old school brewing for the fun of it.

what'd you brew?

BDSA with 2 lb. of D240 candi syrup.  I brewed HIDO.  ;)

Nice.  If I get lucky I'll split some wort tomorrow into a tripel and a saison.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: MadJohnShaft on February 03, 2017, 06:35:58 PM

I can't help myself -  I boil the crap out of it outside in the cold for an hour because all that rising steam and jet-engine noise makes me feels rugged, dangerous and macho.

For reals.

Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: mabrungard on February 04, 2017, 09:13:14 PM
Just finished brewing a M Dunkel and I revised my boiling procedures in response to this thread.

I reduced my boiloff percentage to under 10% by covering the kettle to almost 100%. I had been covering the kettle by about 1/2 to 2/3, but my boil loss percentage was on the order of 1 gal/hr. That was too much. I knew I had to implement change.

So with the lid barely cracked, I quickly found that I needed to reduce the power. I had been boiling with a mild rolling action with the power modulator set at 45%. I had to turn the setting down to 20% to get the same rolling with the cover on. So, there is a big energy savings with the cover on. I did find that its important to keep your face away from the kettle when checking the boil! Steam is hot!!!

I did boil the last 15 min uncovered to help assure that DMS was boiled out and to meet my 10% volume loss goal. I'll bump that down to 8% in the future if this approach seems to work well.

These were changes that I needed to do. We'll see if they improve or degrade the beer. 
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: brewinhard on February 04, 2017, 10:36:38 PM
Just finished brewing a M Dunkel and I revised my boiling procedures in response to this thread.

I reduced my boiloff percentage to under 10% by covering the kettle to almost 100%. I had been covering the kettle by about 1/2 to 2/3, but my boil loss percentage was on the order of 1 gal/hr. That was too much. I knew I had to implement change.

So with the lid barely cracked, I quickly found that I needed to reduce the power. I had been boiling with a mild rolling action with the power modulator set at 45%. I had to turn the setting down to 20% to get the same rolling with the cover on. So, there is a big energy savings with the cover on. I did find that its important to keep your face away from the kettle when checking the boil! Steam is hot!!!

I did boil the last 15 min uncovered to help assure that DMS was boiled out and to meet my 10% volume loss goal. I'll bump that down to 8% in the future if this approach seems to work well.

These were changes that I needed to do. We'll see if they improve or degrade the beer.

Martin,
did you implement any other low oxygen procedures in this brew day besides lighter boil?  Just curious.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: mabrungard on February 05, 2017, 01:52:06 AM
Yeah, I use SMB and BTB in my brewing.
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 05, 2017, 01:55:39 AM
Yeah, I use SMB and BTB in my brewing.
Cheers Martin! I think you will be really happy with the lower thermal load in conjunction with your normal practices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 05, 2017, 03:08:50 PM
I did my boil mostly covered yesterday as well.  I had to have the burner down so low the flame went out  couple times, but it was a little windy too.

Pre-boiling pretty much offset any propane savings though.  And added hugely to the length of the brew day.

Anyway, I implemented what I could for reducing DO.  We'll see how the beer comes out.

I had miserable conversion with the underlet undisturbed mash.  Maybe I need to crush finer...
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on February 05, 2017, 03:14:50 PM
I did my boil mostly covered yesterday as well.  I had to have the burner down so low the flame went out  couple times, but it was a little windy too.

Pre-boiling pretty much offset any propane savings though.  And added hugely to the length of the brew day.

Anyway, I implemented what I could for reducing DO.  We'll see how the beer comes out.

I had miserable conversion with the underlet undisturbed mash.  Maybe I need to crush finer...

When you say undisturbed mash, you mean you didn't stir at all?
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 05, 2017, 03:20:55 PM
Yes.  Thought that was part of the keeping out DO.

Maybe I'm a goof.

I did not find any dough balls or dry malt when I dumped the grain, but I also wasn't checking for it.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Big Monk on February 05, 2017, 03:33:35 PM
Yes.  Thought that was part of the keeping out DO.

Maybe I'm a goof.

I did not find any dough balls or dry malt when I dumped the grain, but I also wasn't checking for it.

You can definitely stir. A gentle stir during mash in and another gentle stir when you sparge.

If you are implementing a mash cap and underletting, you'll have plenty of margin left with your Mash and Sparge additions of NaMeta to keep you out of trouble with O2.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 05, 2017, 04:03:10 PM
Good to know.  The mash cap I planned to use (pot lid) didn't fit like I hoped so I abandoned it.  Need to take some time and make one.  But time is precious for me these days.

I had plenty of mishaps throughout the day, including dumping a bunch of grain on the ground when I went to mill it.  Oh well.  The beer is fermenting.  The BDSA will be more like a dubbel.  The saison will be fine, I think.  I added some sugar to bump the OG.

Next time will be more better.
Title: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 05, 2017, 04:13:30 PM
I did my boil mostly covered yesterday as well.  I had to have the burner down so low the flame went out  couple times, but it was a little windy too.

Pre-boiling pretty much offset any propane savings though.  And added hugely to the length of the brew day.

Anyway, I implemented what I could for reducing DO.  We'll see how the beer comes out.

I had miserable conversion with the underlet undisturbed mash.  Maybe I need to crush finer...
Joe, I have used a bucket heater on a timer for years, that gets the water up to normal strike temp when I get up in the morning. For a LODO brew I light the fire, and as the water is getting to the boil, I grind the malt and do other prep jobs. It adds a little time, but not a lot.

I do the same.  I get water in the HLT, get it heating, weigh and condition grains, get water salts and scavengers ready, hoses ready etc. Overall it maybe adds 15-20min to my day.  I just did a brew Friday that was a pretty standard day for me... preboil, hochkurz mash (30/30/10) all ramps and whatnot at 1c/min. 60 minute boil, whirlpool chill to 50f, then a 40 minute cold break seperation, and cleanup.  From lights on in the brewery to lights out it was 5hrs 30 minutes. I don't really know how this compares to folks, but it takes what it takes to produce what I want to produce! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: natebrews on February 05, 2017, 04:37:04 PM
Joe, for my mash cap and kettle cap (during chilling) I'm using disposable pizza pans from the super market.  They work nicely as a floating lid, and it is easy enough to shape them to whatever your exact needs are.  I would prefer to have a piece of food grade silicone foam for it but I'm not up to dropping the cash on that right now.  (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/b3a36f5cefa66fa32d1ab04a35c830d3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/804238b8ad71d0427848ec2bd0bd04bd.jpg)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 05, 2017, 05:33:39 PM
Nice.  Pizza pans might work.  I have a bunch of old pie plates, but they're way to small.

As far as pre-boiling, I fired up the kettle while I did the weighing of grains, etc.  It was in the 20s yesterday and I was overly generous on the amount of water, but it took a LONG time to boil and then also took awhile for the temp to drop so I could mash in.  It wasn't really a problem, but if I do it again I'll boil 2/3 the amount of water.  It just made for a long day.  I may have had the burner on too low.  But whatever.  It gave me time to smoke a cigar and light a fire so the kids could make s'mores.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: natebrews on February 05, 2017, 06:17:10 PM
One thing with those pizza pans is that you need to weigh it down a bit because it is so light, otherwise you can get a air gap under it in places.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/a271a1852ffee292a6864022c94d5982.jpg)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: brewinhard on February 05, 2017, 06:23:35 PM
I fashioned my mash cap out of some thin styrofoam cut and shaved to size and covered generously with aluminum foil. Worked great and had a real tight fit.

I only employ one on the mash though and should probably consider one for the kettle when chilling, but my SS chiller kind of gets in the way.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Philbrew on February 05, 2017, 07:07:50 PM
I fashioned my mash cap out of some thin styrofoam cut and shaved to size and covered generously with aluminum foil. Worked great and had a real tight fit.

I only employ one on the mash though and should probably consider one for the kettle when chilling, but my SS chiller kind of gets in the way.
I made one for the kettle during chilling but I read earlier in this thread to keep the wort uncovered during chill to let DMS escape.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: natebrews on February 05, 2017, 07:18:36 PM
If my memory serves, the DMS formation stops at about 140F, and I suspect you aren't getting much of it evolving once you get below 170 or so, but that is a total guess.  With my chilling method, I get down below 140 in about a minute I am not worrying about it for my setup.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: stpug on February 05, 2017, 07:29:34 PM
Yes.  Thought that was part of the keeping out DO [not stirring].

Maybe I'm a goof.

I did not find any dough balls or dry malt when I dumped the grain, but I also wasn't checking for it.

I did the same thing with one of my first low oxygen batches last summer (i.e. no stirring), and the results were identical to yours (very poor conversion/extraction).  Since then, I ensure I get good mixing of grains with water with focus on minimal aeration (basically this means just gentle stirring without a whole lot of effort).
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: dilluh98 on February 05, 2017, 07:32:37 PM
Yes.  Thought that was part of the keeping out DO [not stirring].

Maybe I'm a goof.

I did not find any dough balls or dry malt when I dumped the grain, but I also wasn't checking for it.

I did the same thing with one of my first low oxygen batches last summer (i.e. no stirring), and the results were identical to yours (very poor conversion/extraction).  Since then, I ensure I get good mixing of grains with water with focus on minimal aeration (basically this means just gentle stirring without a whole lot of effort).

Me too. I haven't noticed any harm in some gentle stirring. Just don't whisk it like an egg.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: natebrews on February 05, 2017, 07:34:56 PM
As another data point:

I just ran off a mash for the Scottish 60/- I'm doing today and did no sparge, underlet, one gentle stir after all the liquor was in, 156F, pH 5.25.  I got 74% mash efficiency (calculated from pre-boil gravity using beersmith).  My first one with no stirring also came out at ~50%, though I couldn't find any dough balls in there.

My dough in time was about 8-10 minutes, which was based on what Bryan said.  If I go faster I find that it doesn't seem to work so well as the grain starts to float up on the water. 
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 05, 2017, 07:48:17 PM
Yes.  Thought that was part of the keeping out DO [not stirring].

Maybe I'm a goof.

I did not find any dough balls or dry malt when I dumped the grain, but I also wasn't checking for it.

I did the same thing with one of my first low oxygen batches last summer (i.e. no stirring), and the results were identical to yours (very poor conversion/extraction).  Since then, I ensure I get good mixing of grains with water with focus on minimal aeration (basically this means just gentle stirring without a whole lot of effort).

Me too. I haven't noticed any harm in some gentle stirring. Just don't whisk it like an egg.


Same here.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: tommymorris on February 05, 2017, 09:08:29 PM
One thing with those pizza pans is that you need to weigh it down a bit because it is so light, otherwise you can get a air gap under it in places.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/a271a1852ffee292a6864022c94d5982.jpg)
LODO also keeps your coffee warm.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: erockrph on February 06, 2017, 04:35:06 PM
One thing with those pizza pans is that you need to weigh it down a bit because it is so light, otherwise you can get a air gap under it in places.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/a271a1852ffee292a6864022c94d5982.jpg)
LODO also keeps your coffee warm.
Judging by that picture, it lowers the SRM on your coffee by quite a bit as well :)
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 06, 2017, 05:49:56 PM
As another data point:

I just ran off a mash for the Scottish 60/- I'm doing today and did no sparge, underlet, one gentle stir after all the liquor was in, 156F, pH 5.25.  I got 74% mash efficiency (calculated from pre-boil gravity using beersmith).  My first one with no stirring also came out at ~50%, though I couldn't find any dough balls in there.

My dough in time was about 8-10 minutes, which was based on what Bryan said.  If I go faster I find that it doesn't seem to work so well as the grain starts to float up on the water.

50% sounds exactly right.  Frustrating, but not the end of the world.  I need to brew more often.
Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: syncopadence on February 12, 2017, 02:31:28 AM
Loving all the responses on here.  I lowered my boil vigor with my most recent brew and have noticed a big flavor improvement, regarding more character and less flaws. Still need to improve it a bit more, but improvement, nonetheless.
Thanks for all the help, fellas!

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
Post by: The Beerery on February 12, 2017, 03:04:28 AM
Loving all the responses on here.  I lowered my boil vigor with my most recent brew and have noticed a big flavor improvement, regarding more character and less flaws. Still need to improve it a bit more, but improvement, nonetheless.
Thanks for all the help, fellas!

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Awesome! Great to hear.