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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: ultravista on January 24, 2017, 02:42:25 PM

Title: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ultravista on January 24, 2017, 02:42:25 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: The Beerery on January 24, 2017, 02:45:39 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

Juicy hop flavors are all about Low oxygen. You will need to make sure you are dryhopping in a low oxygen method.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: erockrph on January 24, 2017, 03:44:26 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

What is the quantity and schedule of hops? "Juicy" starts to come in at the 2+ ounce per gallon hopping rate between whirlpool and dry hops.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: neddles on January 24, 2017, 04:45:16 PM
I have created "juicy" NEIPA several times over by a few different methods. The one consistent factor is having significant insoluable protein in the beer at the time of dry hopping. That can be done several ways. Then keeping it cold. Low O2 might help keep the character around longer but is not requisite for creating it.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 04:47:06 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

Juicy hop flavors are all about Low oxygen. You will need to make sure you are dryhopping in a low oxygen method.

I disagree and my experience with some breweries that are producing exceptionally juicy IPA's are not utilizing german LODO methods.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 04:48:59 PM
I have created "juicy" NEIPA several times over by a few different methods. The one consistent factor is having significant insoluable protein in the beer at the time of dry hopping. That can be done several ways. Then keeping it cold. Low O2 might help keep the character around longer but is not requisite for creating it.

a very small brewery here in northern California that is producing award winning Juicy IPA's batch sparges and follows absolutely zero LODO principles. I couldn't agree more with you.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: The Beerery on January 24, 2017, 04:51:29 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

Juicy hop flavors are all about Low oxygen. You will need to make sure you are dryhopping in a low oxygen method.

I disagree and my experience with some breweries that are producing exceptionally juicy IPA's are not utilizing german LODO methods.

Never called them "German LODO methods"...........

I specifically said Low oxygen method. That would be dryhopping with active yeast present (a low oxygen method as the yeasts can consume the oxygen). As biotransformation is needed in these styles. Are you denying that?
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 04:56:42 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

Juicy hop flavors are all about Low oxygen. You will need to make sure you are dryhopping in a low oxygen method.

I disagree and my experience with some breweries that are producing exceptionally juicy IPA's are not utilizing german LODO methods.

Never called them "German LODO methods"...........

I specifically said Low oxygen method. That would be dryhopping with active yeast present (a low oxygen method as the yeasts can consume the oxygen). As biotransformation is needed in these styles. Are you denying that?

why not just say "dryhop at high krausen bud?
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 04:57:14 PM
that's a little more clear and helpful than "all about low oxygen" don't you think?
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: The Beerery on January 24, 2017, 04:58:36 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

Juicy hop flavors are all about Low oxygen. You will need to make sure you are dryhopping in a low oxygen method.

I disagree and my experience with some breweries that are producing exceptionally juicy IPA's are not utilizing german LODO methods.

Never called them "German LODO methods"...........

I specifically said Low oxygen method. That would be dryhopping with active yeast present (a low oxygen method as the yeasts can consume the oxygen). As biotransformation is needed in these styles. Are you denying that?

why not just say "dryhop at high krausen bud?

Because "bud" thats part of a low oxygen method...........
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 04:59:36 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

Juicy hop flavors are all about Low oxygen. You will need to make sure you are dryhopping in a low oxygen method.

I disagree and my experience with some breweries that are producing exceptionally juicy IPA's are not utilizing german LODO methods.

Never called them "German LODO methods"...........

I specifically said Low oxygen method. That would be dryhopping with active yeast present (a low oxygen method as the yeasts can consume the oxygen). As biotransformation is needed in these styles. Are you denying that?

why not just say "dryhop at high krausen bud?

Becuase "bud" thats part of a low oxygen method there skippy...........

its also part of plain ole brewing for us amateur hobbyists.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Big Monk on January 24, 2017, 05:04:25 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

Juicy hop flavors are all about Low oxygen. You will need to make sure you are dryhopping in a low oxygen method.

I disagree and my experience with some breweries that are producing exceptionally juicy IPA's are not utilizing german LODO methods.

Never called them "German LODO methods"...........

I specifically said Low oxygen method. That would be dryhopping with active yeast present (a low oxygen method as the yeasts can consume the oxygen). As biotransformation is needed in these styles. Are you denying that?

why not just say "dryhop at high krausen bud?

Becuase "bud" thats part of a low oxygen method there skippy...........

its also part of plain ole brewing for us amateur hobbyists.

Don't you tire of stirring the pot?

There was ZERO negativity in the response concerning dryhopping methods.

You've now derailed another thread because you are perpetually butthurt.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: denny on January 24, 2017, 05:07:05 PM
I have brewed Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Heady Topper clone a few times now and have one kit left in the freezer. This clone has never been 'juicy' to me but a solid hop forward beer. A great brew, but with all of the NEIPA talking happening now, I would like to tweak the recipe to change it up a bit - make a juicy IPA.

Grains & Sugars:
-- 12 lb Fawcett Pearl Malt
-- 12 oz Baird’s Light Carastan Malt
-- 12 oz White Wheat Malt
-- 1 lbs Brun Leger sugar

Hops: Hopshot, Columbus, Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, Apollo

How do I make this a juicy IPA? Add to the grain bill, substitute hops (Citra / Mosaic) or?

What would you do?

Juicy hop flavors are all about Low oxygen. You will need to make sure you are dryhopping in a low oxygen method.

I disagree and my experience with some breweries that are producing exceptionally juicy IPA's are not utilizing german LODO methods.

I agree with your disagreement.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 05:09:27 PM


correcting misinformation and disagreeing with a member is "stirring the pot"? I'd say calling someone "perpetually butthurt" might be a little more pot stirring my friend. All the best, just trying to help this fella make a juicy beer.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: denny on January 24, 2017, 05:13:14 PM

Don't you tire of stirring the pot?

There was ZERO negativity in the response concerning dryhopping methods.

You've now derailed another thread because you are perpetually butthurt.

And I'm about to drop the hammer.  Bryan's response could certainly have been clearer.  It's as if low O2 is the answer fore everything, even if it obscures the real answer.   But that's my opinion.  Please, let's all keep it civil.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: The Beerery on January 24, 2017, 05:15:03 PM

Don't you tire of stirring the pot?

There was ZERO negativity in the response concerning dryhopping methods.

You've now derailed another thread because you are perpetually butthurt.

And I'm about to drop the hammer.  Bryan's response could certainly have been clearer.  It's as if low O2 is the answer fore everything, even if it obscures the real answer.   But that's my opinion.  Please, let's all keep it civil.

I am agreement, Low oxygen is the answer for everything!  8)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: denny on January 24, 2017, 05:15:36 PM

Don't you tire of stirring the pot?

There was ZERO negativity in the response concerning dryhopping methods.

You've now derailed another thread because you are perpetually butthurt.

And I'm about to drop the hammer.  Bryan's response could certainly have been clearer.  It's as if low O2 is the answer fore everything, even if it obscures the real answer.   But that's my opinion.  Please, let's all keep it civil.

I am agreement, Low oxygen is the answer for everything!  8)

I disagree.  It is not the answer for easy, fun brewing.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 24, 2017, 05:26:08 PM
I for one have gotten tone deaf to this LODO thing.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: narcout on January 24, 2017, 05:29:58 PM
I assume most people have seen it already, but this week's Brulosophy experiment was biotrasformation vs. standard dry hop in the context of NEIPA.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/23/biotransformation-vs-standard-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/

Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: The Beerery on January 24, 2017, 05:34:01 PM
I assume most people have seen it already, but this week's Brulosophy experiment was biotrasformation vs. standard dry hop in the context of NEIPA.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/23/biotransformation-vs-standard-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/

He's sees first hand what dry hopping and oxidation can do.. You can clearly see(SRM change) the oxidation in the "normal" dry hopped batch.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ntabb on January 24, 2017, 05:49:04 PM
Couple methods that seem to work well for that "juicy" character.

1.) High Chloride to Sulfate ratio (Opposite of what we would typically do)
2.) Flaked wheat or oats (up to 10%)
3.) Yeast that leave a slight ester (Gigayeast Vermont Ale, Omega DIPA)
4.) Most, if not all hops added between whirlpool and dry hop (Stick with tropical fruit forward hops such as Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, etc...)
5.) Drink fresh!!

Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Frankenbrew on January 24, 2017, 06:16:09 PM
I for one have gotten tone deaf to this LODO thing.

It's like that song on the radio that you atomatically change the station...Oh wait, that's another thread :P
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Kutaka on January 24, 2017, 06:21:18 PM
The recipe for the kit should make a hop juice beer.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/allgrain/AG-OfftheTopper.pdf

All the flavor hops (8oz) are added at flame out and steeped.  The dry hop is 5.5oz.

Using Vermont ale yeast instead of so-5 will make it more fruity.

It should still be juicy without being obsessive about eliminating DO, but do whatever you can to reduce oxygen exposure, especially post fermentation.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 24, 2017, 06:29:58 PM
I for one have gotten tone deaf to this LODO thing.

It would be nice to have an isolated 'LODO' brewing category.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 07:10:06 PM
I for one have gotten tone deaf to this LODO thing.

It would be nice to have an isolated 'LODO' brewing category.

It'd be even nicer if the LODO theists could use basic social skills and not alienate the vast majority of people they converse with.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 24, 2017, 07:10:44 PM
I for one have gotten tone deaf to this LODO thing.

It would be nice to have an isolated 'LODO' brewing category.

It'd be even nicer if the LODO theists could use basic social skills and not alienate the vast majority of people they converse with.

Yeah that too
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 07:10:51 PM

Don't you tire of stirring the pot?

There was ZERO negativity in the response concerning dryhopping methods.

You've now derailed another thread because you are perpetually butthurt.

And I'm about to drop the hammer.  Bryan's response could certainly have been clearer.  It's as if low O2 is the answer fore everything, even if it obscures the real answer.   But that's my opinion.  Please, let's all keep it civil.

I am agreement, Low oxygen is the answer for everything!  8)

I disagree.  It is not the answer for easy, fun brewing.

And it is not the answer for the vast majority of professional breweries in their quest to make the best beer...
Title: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Big Monk on January 24, 2017, 07:12:23 PM
I for one have gotten tone deaf to this LODO thing.

It would be nice to have an isolated 'LODO' brewing category.

It'd be even nicer if the LODO theists could use basic social skills and not alienate the vast majority of people they converse with.

There is a large contingent of posters here who we very much enjoy interacting with and have used the information to make some dynamite beer.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 07:13:46 PM
Couple methods that seem to work well for that "juicy" character.

1.) High Chloride to Sulfate ratio (Opposite of what we would typically do)
2.) Flaked wheat or oats (up to 10%)
3.) Yeast that leave a slight ester (Gigayeast Vermont Ale, Omega DIPA)
4.) Most, if not all hops added between whirlpool and dry hop (Stick with tropical fruit forward hops such as Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, etc...)
5.) Drink fresh!!

excellent advice.  If the OP follows this route he'll be drinking alcoholic OJ in no time :)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: The Beerery on January 24, 2017, 07:14:39 PM

Don't you tire of stirring the pot?

There was ZERO negativity in the response concerning dryhopping methods.

You've now derailed another thread because you are perpetually butthurt.

And I'm about to drop the hammer.  Bryan's response could certainly have been clearer.  It's as if low O2 is the answer fore everything, even if it obscures the real answer.   But that's my opinion.  Please, let's all keep it civil.

I am agreement, Low oxygen is the answer for everything!  8)

I disagree.  It is not the answer for easy, fun brewing.

And it is not the answer for the vast majority of professional breweries in their quest to make the best beer...

If you could be so kind to provide us with the numbers to that, I would love to see them. Thanks.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 07:23:02 PM

Don't you tire of stirring the pot?

There was ZERO negativity in the response concerning dryhopping methods.

You've now derailed another thread because you are perpetually butthurt.

And I'm about to drop the hammer.  Bryan's response could certainly have been clearer.  It's as if low O2 is the answer fore everything, even if it obscures the real answer.   But that's my opinion.  Please, let's all keep it civil.

I am agreement, Low oxygen is the answer for everything!  8)

I disagree.  It is not the answer for easy, fun brewing.

And it is not the answer for the vast majority of professional breweries in their quest to make the best beer...

If you could be so kind to provide us with the numbers to that, I would love to see them. Thanks.

wouldn't it be easier for you to list the breweries actually using it? You seem a little worked up. Maybe step away from the computer for a little bit and collect yourself bud.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Kutaka on January 24, 2017, 07:25:30 PM
This thread is about how to make a Heady Topper clone juicy.  The recipe provided by the kit should make hop juice.

The brewer of Heady Topper is very proud of his low DO methods, but think how extra amazing Heady Topper would be if it was made by Bitburger.   :D
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: kramerog on January 24, 2017, 07:26:05 PM
Couple methods that seem to work well for that "juicy" character.

1.) High Chloride to Sulfate ratio (Opposite of what we would typically do)
2.) Flaked wheat or oats (up to 10%)
3.) Yeast that leave a slight ester (Gigayeast Vermont Ale, Omega DIPA)
4.) Most, if not all hops added between whirlpool and dry hop (Stick with tropical fruit forward hops such as Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, etc...)
5.) Drink fresh!!
Generally agree with above. Below is my $0.02:
1) > 100 ppm chloride
3) London Ale III is pretty typical
5) Fresh can be a long time if careful to avoid oxygen exposure once fermentation get's going.
6) Dry hopping towards the end of active fermentation and dry hopping again after active fermentation, preferably in keg.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 07:26:28 PM
This thread is about how to make a Heady Topper clone juicy.  The recipe provided by the kit should make hop juice.

The brewer of Heady Topper is very proud of his low DO methods, but think how extra amazing Heady Topper would be if it was made by Bitburger.

nothing sets off a hoppy beer better than a big sulfur bomb!!:)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: neddles on January 24, 2017, 07:26:36 PM
Couple methods that seem to work well for that "juicy" character.

1.) High Chloride to Sulfate ratio (Opposite of what we would typically do)
2.) Flaked wheat or oats (up to 10%)
3.) Yeast that leave a slight ester (Gigayeast Vermont Ale, Omega DIPA)
4.) Most, if not all hops added between whirlpool and dry hop (Stick with tropical fruit forward hops such as Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, etc...)
5.) Drink fresh!!

I made a perfectly juicy pale ale with equal parts Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Centennial in the whirlpool and dry. The same varieties reported to be in Hill Farmstead's Edward. That beer was cold crashed several days and perfectly clear (as you would expect from the high floccing yeast I used, 1318) before any dry hops were introduced. Suggesting biotransformation is not the cause for these flavors, and certainly not yeast in suspension. The flavors aren't completely the same as you normally get from these hops used in the traditional way IME.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: coombre on January 24, 2017, 07:26:58 PM
I've been attempting to brew hazy "juice" bombs for my past 4 brews or so and have had great results per personal preference.  I have been using Wyeast London ale III (1318) for yeast.  Ive added hops early (60) in the boil and late (10) but have gotten better results when adding them in late.  I  prefer fresh IPA's with low bitterness and have found to achieve a NEIPA type brew, just whirlpool a load of hops (I usually will cool to 160 and WP for 20 minutes) and a ton of dry hopping in primary and in keg.  I dont add any kind of fining agents and dont want to be able to see my hand or fingers through the glass.  Its been working for me.

I am no expert on the "LODO" issue but if you minimize the time for oxygen to enter the primary/secondary/keg it shouldn't be a huge issue.  However I have seen the SRM on some of my brews change significantly (looking like pond water) when using rice hulls.   

I have done both the "biotrans" and standard dry hop methods and have observed negligible results.  I dry hopped ~60-70% complete and at day 10 respectively on a 14 day brew and both have had great results for the taste and appearance.

I am however still searching for a recipe that will results in what looks like you poured tropicana orange juice in a glass reminiscent of brews from omnipollo, noble ale works, highland park— especially omnipollo!  I think it's just filters from photo software  ;D.  Ive used combinations of 2-row, red wheat, flaked oats, flaked barley, C-40, carapils, honey malt, oat malt, Munich I and II you name it.  Any and all suggestions would be great!

just my 2 cents... cheers!
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Stevie on January 24, 2017, 07:35:10 PM
I was going to post, but this is already too much of a $hitshow.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Kutaka on January 24, 2017, 07:40:21 PM
I was going to post, but this is already too much of a $hitshow.

You could read the OP and reply to the OP while disregarding everything else. 
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Big Monk on January 24, 2017, 07:49:31 PM
There is a fundamentally flawed thing going on here that no one seems to want to address:

The OP asked for an opinion and one was given. It went downhill from there. Does anyone recognize why?

To the OP, there is some merit to Bryan's post if you research the methods being used at Hill Farmstead, Alchemist, etc. See through the noise and realize his opinion was meant to help you in particular, not start nonsense with other posters.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 24, 2017, 07:54:33 PM
his post offered no valuable direct insight and instead vaguely mentioned LODO. Which is why I asked, "why not just say dry hop at high krausen". And some of the "proof" I've seen posted that show those breweries are using Kunze's methodology include seeing a copy of his book in a video and a spunding valve.

Owning a book does not equal adherence to said books methodology. I'm sure we all own some brewing books we gleam insight from and disregard other bits of information in them, and spunding valves are widely used in many breweries for reasons other than to limit oxygen ingress.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: The Beerery on January 24, 2017, 08:29:30 PM
My fault for being vague to the OP:

 Low Oxygen Dryhopping methods. (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-dryhopping/)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Kutaka on January 24, 2017, 08:50:59 PM
LODO is a lot more than just dry hopping at high krausen.  That's why he didn't just suggest dry hopping at high krausen.

However, since the OP is brewing a kit beer and is asking questions about how to make trendy "juicy beer" from a kit, one can only assume LODO is TMI for the OP right now.

If you don't think LODO is beneficial based on whatever, there is no need to be defensive every time it's mentioned.  It's a valid brewing technique that is validated by rigorous science.


 
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 24, 2017, 10:26:46 PM
If you don't think LODO is beneficial based on whatever, there is no need to be defensive every time it's mentioned.  It's a valid brewing technique that is validated by rigorous science.



Totally agree. I don't judge or care how someone brews - the whole different goals, available time, etc, thing . But those of us who are interested in the info are entitled to read it without the same redundant noise. It's become like the movie Groundhog Day played nonstop at this point. Not gonna lie - arguments (vehement or not) against ANYTHING don't carry much weight when the protester hasn't actually tried the entire process. Brew and let brew (might have been a James Bond movie title. Or not).
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Stevie on January 24, 2017, 11:02:50 PM
LODO is a lot more than just dry hopping at high krausen.  That's why he didn't just suggest dry hopping at high krausen.

However, since the OP is brewing a kit beer and is asking questions about how to make trendy "juicy beer" from a kit, one can only assume LODO is TMI for the OP right now.

If you don't think LODO is beneficial based on whatever, there is no need to be defensive every time it's mentioned.  It's a valid brewing technique that is validated by rigorous science.
Basically what I was going to say but much more diplomatic.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Kutaka on January 24, 2017, 11:23:38 PM

Totally agree. I don't judge or care how someone brews - the whole different goals, available time, etc, thing . But those of us who are interested in the info are entitled to read it without the same redundant noise. It's become like the movie Groundhog Day played nonstop at this point. Not gonna lie - arguments (vehement or not) against ANYTHING don't carry much weight when the protester hasn't actually tried the entire process. Brew and let brew (might have been a James Bond movie title. Or not).

Homebrewers are generally a very sensitive bunch.  This is one of the reasons why I have a very limited attention span for homebrew forums.  If the collective had thicker skin, maybe I would disappear less often.

The basic context of this LODO acceptance problem is one camp has a brewing method validated by science and they think it makes the "best beer" because science and opinion.  They need to be reminded that the term "best beer" is not something science can determine.

The other camp makes beer they really enjoy drinking and maybe they have won some awards to validate the quality of their beer.  If they make beer that they honestly think can't be improved, then I guess I can relate to their contempt for a process they think they don't need.

I'm absolutely certain both camps believe they make great beer.  There are many, many ways to make great beer and they don't necessarily need to be supported by science.

Blanket dismissals of the LODO process doesn't invalidate it's legitimacy.  I'm semi-LODO and can't think of any reason to introduce more DO into my beer based on science and subjective taste. 
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 24, 2017, 11:37:31 PM

Totally agree. I don't judge or care how someone brews - the whole different goals, available time, etc, thing . But those of us who are interested in the info are entitled to read it without the same redundant noise. It's become like the movie Groundhog Day played nonstop at this point. Not gonna lie - arguments (vehement or not) against ANYTHING don't carry much weight when the protester hasn't actually tried the entire process. Brew and let brew (might have been a James Bond movie title. Or not).

Homebrewers are generally a very sensitive bunch.  This is one of the reasons why I have a very limited attention span for homebrew forums.  If the collective had thicker skin, maybe I would disappear less often.

The basic context of this LODO acceptance problem is one camp has a brewing method validated by science and they think it makes the "best beer" because science and opinion.  They need to be reminded that the term "best beer" is not something science can determine.

The other camp makes beer they really enjoy drinking and maybe they have won some awards to validate the quality of their beer.  If they make beer that they honestly think can't be improved, then I guess I can relate to their contempt for a process they think they don't need.

I'm absolutely certain both camps believe they make great beer.  There are many, many ways to make great beer and they don't necessarily need to be supported by science.

Blanket dismissals of the LODO process doesn't invalidate it's legitimacy.  I'm semi-LODO and can't think of any reason to introduce more DO into my beer based on science and subjective taste. 




I don't disagree. There are a lot of approaches to brewing, most of which make good beer. I'm probably considered semi lodo at this point too , with some more equipment upgrades needed to reduce O2 further. I see it as similar to the game of baseball, in that you can make it as simple or as complicated as you like. Pretty hard to argue that O2 in beer isn't something to at least try to reduce, at the very least.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 24, 2017, 11:43:44 PM
Most of us were LODO before it became a thing, at least cold side. I'm not bothered in the least by it. It's the "your beer, which I've never tried, sucks" mentality that makes me more and more disinterested as nearly every thread becomes a sophomoric LODO debate.

Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: denny on January 24, 2017, 11:47:51 PM
Most of us were LODO before it became a thing, at least cold side. I'm not bothered in the least by it. It's the "your beer, which I've never tried, sucks" mentality that makes me more and more disinterested as nearly every thread becomes a sophomoric LODO debate.

Well said, Jim.  It's the attitude from some LODO proponents that gets under my skin, not the way they decide to brew.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Kutaka on January 25, 2017, 12:01:55 AM
Most of us were LODO before it became a thing, at least cold side. I'm not bothered in the least by it. It's the "your beer, which I've never tried, sucks" mentality that makes me more and more disinterested as nearly every thread becomes a sophomoric LODO debate.

I haven't read anything from the LODO people that claims non LODO beer sucks.  Even if they did say it directly and often, who cares?  You are the ultimate judge of what you pour down your beer hole.  Everyone else has a valid opinion.  Let them have it.  The only one that really matters is your own.

Intolerance for opposing opinions is the basis for an echo chamber.  This forum has been an echo chamber a lot more than once.   ;)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Phil_M on January 25, 2017, 12:02:18 AM
I guess I don't see that as much from the LODO camp as I used to. I do see some snarky/tounge-in-cheek comments that I think are taken a little out of context, but it's still way better than it was.

I'm on the fence about if too many technical details are a good thing, or a bad thing. In the workplace I've seen enough misinformation spread from a good simplification to know that this isn't always the correct approach...on the other hand, I've seen a lot of people desperate to learn the inner workings of what was my system blinded by details to know that doesn't always work either.

I think a mix of both is the best approach. As in, "LODO may be the ideal, but try this in the meantime..."
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 25, 2017, 12:03:08 AM
Que the thread derailment complaints 😂

If by juicy we mean fruit juice flavors from hops, in my experience the best way is to chill post boil to 170f and add a gob of hops. Let them stand for about 20min before continuing the chill.

If by juicy you mean appearance, that's probably yeast and protein derived.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 25, 2017, 12:08:20 AM
I misused " ". No one perhaps has said those precise words. But there have been words that amount to that.

I'm out on lodo from here on. I don't need more stress in my life. Have fun, I hope you get famous on it. More power to you.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 25, 2017, 12:23:06 AM
I've tried the mini mash that is suggested by the LODO fellows, and didn't care for it. My years working in wine have taught me that meta isn't particularly useful at higher ph's. My experience with microbreweries tell me that the lodo principles preached and practiced here are not accepted, applied or respected by most professionals making the beer we admire and attempt to emulate and my experience here has found the delivery of Bryans message is snarky, condescending, dismissive, rude, and in this threads case, unhelpful.

An example that the Bryan could follow is that of Denny and batch sparging. Denny has a brewing method/technique that he came up with and innovated in a quest to make better beer. He fully believes in it, and has proven to himself and others that it is an effective method, and I have never once seen Denny refer to a fly sparger or BIAB brewer as amateurish or wrong or stating that they must just prefer brewing poorly for not adhering to his methods. He vocally advocates for his methods while still maintaining a respectful and open minded tone. Its just basic social skills really.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Big Monk on January 25, 2017, 12:29:25 AM
I've tried the mini mash that is suggested by the LODO fellows, and didn't care for it. My years working in wine have taught me that meta isn't particularly useful at higher ph's. My experience with microbreweries tell me that the lodo principles preached and practiced here are not accepted, applied or respected by most professionals making the beer we admire and attempt to emulate and my experience here has found the delivery of Bryans message is snarky, condescending, dismissive, rude, and in this threads case, unhelpful.

An example that the Bryan could follow is that of Denny and batch sparging. Denny has a brewing method/technique that he came up with and innovated in a quest to make better beer. He fully believes in it, and has proven to himself and others that it is an effective method, and I have never once seen Denny refer to a fly sparger or BIAB brewer as amateurish or wrong or stating that they must just prefer brewing poorly for not adhering to his methods. He vocally advocates for his methods while still maintaining a respectful and open minded tone. Its just basic social skills really.

You are totally missing the point: OP asked for opinions, and instead of giving one, you chose to instead just disagree with Bryan.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 25, 2017, 12:30:06 AM
I've tried the mini mash that is suggested by the LODO fellows, and didn't care for it. My years working in wine have taught me that meta isn't particularly useful at higher ph's. My experience with microbreweries tell me that the lodo principles preached and practiced here are not accepted, applied or respected by most professionals making the beer we admire and attempt to emulate and my experience here has found the delivery of Bryans message is snarky, condescending, dismissive, rude, and in this threads case, unhelpful.

An example that the Bryan could follow is that of Denny and batch sparging. Denny has a brewing method/technique that he came up with and innovated in a quest to make better beer. He fully believes in it, and has proven to himself and others that it is an effective method, and I have never once seen Denny refer to a fly sparger or BIAB brewer as amateurish or wrong or stating that they must just prefer brewing poorly for not adhering to his methods. He vocally advocates for his methods while still maintaining a respectful and open minded tone. Its just basic social skills really.

You are totally missing the point: OP asked for opinions, and instead of giving one, you chose to instead just disagree with Bryan.

of course I disagreed, it wasn't helpful for the OP.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Kutaka on January 25, 2017, 12:36:44 AM
I've tried the mini mash that is suggested by the LODO fellows, and didn't care for it. My years working in wine have taught me that meta isn't particularly useful at higher ph's. My experience with microbreweries tell me that the lodo principles preached and practiced here are not accepted, applied or respected by most professionals making the beer we admire and attempt to emulate and my experience here has found the delivery of Bryans message is snarky, condescending, dismissive, rude, and in this threads case, unhelpful.

An example that the Bryan could follow is that of Denny and batch sparging. Denny has a brewing method/technique that he came up with and innovated in a quest to make better beer. He fully believes in it, and has proven to himself and others that it is an effective method, and I have never once seen Denny refer to a fly sparger or BIAB brewer as amateurish or wrong or stating that they must just prefer brewing poorly for not adhering to his methods. He vocally advocates for his methods while still maintaining a respectful and open minded tone. Its just basic social skills really.

Pretty sure Denny didn't invent batch sparging.  He just made the first homebrew website dedicated to it and subsequently preached it relentlessly just like the LODO people.  Sound familiar? 

Batch sparging making "better beer" isn't validated by science.  It's simply a less complicated way to sparge and a very good way to tasty homebrew faster.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: The Beerery on January 25, 2017, 12:39:31 AM
It's not about getting "famous" as you will never see a book or any "deal" from me. Everything I have done to date has been on my dime with no "endorsements" or hope for paybacks. It was about me giving people a higher knowledge of the brewing process and giving people a means to produce the best beer possible while learning from what the pros do. If everything in the pro mentality was cheap and easy this wouldn't even be a thing.
But If I told folks general statements like  Denny told us low oxygen brewers earlier about how our way was not easy or fun, there would literally be a riot. I have literally always backed my reasonings with either scientific data, sensory analysis, measured readings, etc as for some reason that has always been required of me (which I mind little as it keeps me honest and it's good data points anyways). The moment I ask others it suddenly doesn't matter. So it works both ways gents. 
I honestly don't care who brews how, but the cool thing about science is that just because you don't agree with it.  Doesn't make it stop being true. I will continue to cite and provide information on the technical side because as I said, just because you don't do it, doesn't make it invalid. You guys seem to forget I have been an avid brewer for nearly 20 years now with over 1000 batches down. Only ~250 or so of those being low oxygen.
Hell I thought the new motto is challenge the dogma of homebrewing myths. We literally have members that have experimental brewing shows and books, and have sponsored websites running specific tests. I would have thought the new ideals and methods would have been at least tested once. But anyways I rambled on.  Sorry OP.


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Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: Kutaka on January 25, 2017, 01:07:36 AM
Wait...1000 batches?  That's a lot more than Denny.  You're my new online homebrew hero!  I can't even begin to imagine how amazing my beer will be when batch 1000 gets made.
Title: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bboy9000 on January 25, 2017, 05:46:24 AM
One person again managed to derail this early on so I'll try to get this back on track. 

If by "juicy" you mean flavor just do all flameout and whirlpool hop additions as others have said.  If you want a little more bitterness  do a single early addition of a neutral hop such as Magnum.  The other hops should be fruity or citrusy varieties. If that's the goal try Amarillio, Citra, etc.  Read the about hop profiles online and experiment with the hops that sound good to you. Take hop descriptions with a grain of salt though.  Year them out and use the hops you think are "juicy."  Do nothing with water chemistry and you'll likely be okay unless you have soft water or use RO or distilled water.

If "juicy" means appearance, the orange color can be had with a little C-60 malt.  By a little I mean a few ounces in addition to something lighter like C-20. If by "juicy" you mean "haziness" just tip your keg ipside down and up again or swirl the bottle and pour the dregs.  I personally don't like either option but it would work.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: JT on January 25, 2017, 12:30:27 PM
Couple methods that seem to work well for that "juicy" character.

1.) High Chloride to Sulfate ratio (Opposite of what we would typically do)
2.) Flaked wheat or oats (up to 10%)
3.) Yeast that leave a slight ester (Gigayeast Vermont Ale, Omega DIPA)
4.) Most, if not all hops added between whirlpool and dry hop (Stick with tropical fruit forward hops such as Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, etc...)
5.) Drink fresh!!
Most helpful post for the OP and what I would recommend.  Some more reading. 
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/tips-brewing-new-england-ipa/


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Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: braufessor on January 25, 2017, 02:07:26 PM


I am however still searching for a recipe that will results in what looks like you poured tropicana orange juice in a glass reminiscent of brews from omnipollo, noble ale works, highland park— especially omnipollo!  I think it's just filters from photo software  ;D.  Ive used combinations of 2-row, red wheat, flaked oats, flaked barley, C-40, carapils, honey malt, oat malt, Munich I and II you name it.  Any and all suggestions would be great!

just my 2 cents... cheers!

I brew these all the time.... probably 50+ batches at the very least.  Here is a link to my recipe/strategy.  If you follow the link in the first post to post #1418, that is what I would currently recommend.  Additionally.... I would say that my strategy of using the "dry hop keg" for the second dry hop is not necessary based on some recent batches I have brewed.  You could simply add all of the dry hops to primary at day 3-4 or you could add half at day 3-4 and the other half around day 10-12 ..... 2 days before kegging.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

To the OP....
Honestly - I don't find Heady Topper to be "juicy" in the same regard as say Treehouse, Trillium, Toppling Goliath, etc.  It is a far more assertive DIPA than many others.

I think the key things in my experience.....
*Water - use 100% RO water.  5.4 pH in mash and boil kettle pre-boil.  Get both sulfate and chloride into the 80-140 range.... As long as they are both in that range somewhere, you will be ok in my experience.  Calcium in the 80-90-100 kind of range.  Simple solution - 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of 100% RO water used in mash and sparge.  No acid needed.  That gets you in the ball park - around 120-140 each of sulfate and Chloride with that strategy.

*I use 80% base malt and 18% combination of flaked grains/wheat in any combination basically.  2% honey malt is for a bit of color and sweetness

*I prefer citra/mosaic/galaxy combinations with a 30-50 IBU bittering of Warrior

*Hop stand after flame out and a bit of chilling... get wort down to 170 or so, dump hops in, 30 minutes of steep, stir it up occasionally.

*Yeast is not as important as people make it out.  You do not want the beer "yeasty".  Honestly, I really like 1272 and 1056 for this beer, along with Conan.  I am not a huge fan of 1318 personally.... comes off as "tart" to me.

*Big dry hop at day 3 of ferment.... I think the "haze" seems to come from the hop stand and the first dry hop during fermentation.  I think that is where the "juicy" flavors of hops also come from.

Check out the recipe link above and you might get some other ideas you could add to what you are doing.

The batch I have on tap right now -
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/kpk028/beer%202_zpsz7dqr3ou.jpg) (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/kpk028/media/beer%202_zpsz7dqr3ou.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ultravista on January 25, 2017, 03:06:25 PM
braufessor - I am a water novice, beyond filtering the mash and sparge water (charcoal filter), I do not do anything. My Las Vegas water is hard but makes a good IPA.

I like the soft mouth feel of the NEIPAs and would l like to replicate it if possible.

Can you simply break-down what I need (and perhaps where to get it) to build my water profile to softe

CaCl, Gypsum, Sulfate and Chloride?

Calcium in the 80-90-100 kind of range.  Simple solution - 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of 100% RO water used in mash and sparge.  No acid needed.  That gets you in the ball park - around 120-140 each of sulfate and Chloride with that strategy.

Please break this down - you lost me after 'no acid needed'.

I usually kill the flame, let the wort cool down a bit (20 minutes) then hit it with the flameout hops @ 190-180 then again when it drops to 170 ish. Chilling is pretty quick after that via plate chiller.

Here is the hop schedule:

10.00 ML Hop Shot [3.35 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 92.9 IBUs
----
2.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Steep Hop 7 9.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Steep/Wh Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Steep/Wh Hop 10 9.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Steep Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 13 6.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0 Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
----
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Dry H Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [8.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs
----
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Dry H Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [8.40 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 22 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 23 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop Hop 24 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 25 0.0 IBUs
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: braufessor on January 25, 2017, 03:22:44 PM
braufessor - I am a water novice, beyond filtering the mash and sparge water (charcoal filter), I do not do anything. My Las Vegas water is hard but makes a good IPA.

I like the soft mouth feel of the NEIPAs and would l like to replicate it if possible.

Can you simply break-down what I need (and perhaps where to get it) to build my water profile to softe

CaCl, Gypsum, Sulfate and Chloride?

Calcium in the 80-90-100 kind of range.  Simple solution - 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of 100% RO water used in mash and sparge.  No acid needed.  That gets you in the ball park - around 120-140 each of sulfate and Chloride with that strategy.

Please break this down - you lost me after 'no acid needed'.

I usually kill the flame, let the wort cool down a bit (20 minutes) then hit it with the flameout hops @ 190-180 then again when it drops to 170 ish. Chilling is pretty quick after that via plate chiller.

Here is the hop schedule:

10.00 ML Hop Shot [3.35 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 92.9 IBUs
----
2.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Steep Hop 7 9.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Steep/Wh Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Steep/Wh Hop 10 9.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Steep Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 13 6.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0 Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
----
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Dry H Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [8.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs
----
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Dry H Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [8.40 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 22 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 23 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop Hop 24 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 25 0.0 IBUs

Without knowing what someone's specific water profile is, I really hesitate to give any specific additions.  My home water source is very high in bicarbonate hardness.... it makes lousy IPA's.

My generic recommendation for these NE IPA's (especially if you do not know what your source water contains, and especially for those people that do not want to mess with water calculations) is to do the following:
*1 tsp each of Calcium Chloride and Gypsum per 5 gallons of mash and sparge water.
*Start with 100% RO water
 
If you do this, you will come in around 120-140ppm of Sulfate and Chloride.  Your calcium will be 80-100.  Your mash and boil pH will fall into the desired range roughly (thus, you will not need to add any acid to adjust mash pH).  It is a simple/easy way to get you in the ballpark for this kind of beer.

You can get Calcium Chloride and Gypsum easily/cheaply at any home-brew store.
Calcium chloride adds the Chloride
Gypsum adds the sulfate
They both add Calcium

If you are not familiar with the style, if you do not know exactly what your water is like.... I really recommend doing at least one batch as described above (with RO water) to get a baseline. 

in regard to your hops... the schedule looks fine to me.  I would make sure the first dry hop is going into the fermenter at day 3-4.  I cannot comment on the hop combo - I have not done anything that similar.  I will say, I "personally" am not a huge fan of Columbus, Centennial type hops in these beers..... I just find them to be hops that can "get away" from you in terms of harshness.  I personally find centennial to be a bit "drying" when put in the dry hops.  That said, that is my personal taste - many others very much like those combos.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: narcout on January 25, 2017, 06:02:42 PM
Here is a link to my recipe/strategy.  If you follow the link in the first post to post #1418, that is what I would currently recommend.

Wow, thank you for posting that.  I'm going to save to a PDF for future reference, makes me want to try brewing one of these though I've never had one (except for Heady Topper, but it sounds like that is kind of an outlier)...
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ultravista on January 25, 2017, 06:50:40 PM
braufessor - thank you for taking the time to detail this for me.

On your HBT 'Northeast' style IPA thread, you list the following for 100% RO water.


For this thread, why the lack Epson/Salt/Lactic Acid?

Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: braufessor on January 25, 2017, 07:05:17 PM
braufessor - thank you for taking the time to detail this for me.

On your HBT 'Northeast' style IPA thread, you list the following for 100% RO water.

  • Gypsum = .9 grams/gallon
    CaCl = .4 grams/gallon
    Epsom = .1 gram/gallon
    Canning Salt = .05 grams/gallon
    Lactic Acid = I add about .5ml- 1ml

For this thread, why the lack Epson/Salt/Lactic Acid?

That is what I originally used when I first put the recipe together.  I have played around with the water profile quite a bit. I actually did 3 batches at once with the following water profiles:
Sulfate 140:Chloride 70
Sulfate 70: Chloride 140
Sulfate 120:Chlordie 120

I had all 3 of them on tap at one time.... in multiple blind triangle tests I could not reliably tell the difference.  Neither could several others.  So.... in part.... I just don't think minor adjustments matter that much.

Secondly - the recommendation I gave in this thread was geared toward - "here is the simplest solution that will put you right in the ball park of what is needed for a beer like this."   It is easy to overcomplicate things and end up doing yourself no good, or worse.

Thirdly - one of the most common questions I get in the other thread is "I don't know what my tap water is.... what should I add?"  Or "I don't want to mess with water chemistry/don't have a scale - what is the simple way?"  So, that is why I have the 100% RO plus a tsp each of gypsum and CaCl. 

For anyone brewing a beer like this for the first time - what I gave is a very solid starting point.  In subsequent batches, tweak the water to see if something suits your own personal taste possibly.  Like I said - 100% RO water and get the sulfate and chloride into the 80-140 range and you will be at a good starting point.

Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: braufessor on January 25, 2017, 07:36:30 PM

Wow, thank you for posting that.  I'm going to save to a PDF for future reference, makes me want to try brewing one of these though I've never had one (except for Heady Topper, but it sounds like that is kind of an outlier)...

Give it a shot - it is a great drinking IPA.  At 1.060 you can easily put away 3-4 in a hurry.  It is "typical" of a true NE IPA...... of course, yours might not taste quite as good out there on the West Coast ;)

Let me know if you have any questions if you decide to brew it..... like I said, I brew this all the time.  Might as well learn from my mistakes:)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ultravista on January 26, 2017, 03:52:50 AM
Per the 2016 Las Vegas water report, average values are:

* ALKALINITY             146 ppm
* CHLORIDE               92  ppm
* SULFATE                 235 ppm
* CALCIUM                 79  ppm
* MAGNESIUM            26  ppm

* TOTAL HARDNESS    303 ppm

"In the Las Vegas Valley, the two nontoxic minerals that cause our hard water are calcium and magnesium. The hardness of Las Vegas Valley Water District water is 302 parts per million (ppm) or 18 grains per gallon, categorized as "very hard.""

So that would be ~ 2:5 ratio of Chloride to Sulfate or too heavy on the sulfate?

https://www.lvvwd.com/assets/pdf/wq_summary_lvvwd.pdf (https://www.lvvwd.com/assets/pdf/wq_summary_lvvwd.pdf)

Does 'soft' water that produces a 'soft pillowy mouthfeel'?

Not sure what else to look for ...
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bboy9000 on January 26, 2017, 05:40:43 AM
Yea that may be high sulfate for a NEIPA but I've never brewed one on purpose.  That's not too higher sulfate for an AIPA.

I'd just use RO water.  Get the 5G jug and fill at one of those self-serve stations. At around 36 cents per gallon it doesn't add much to the cost of the beer.  The minerals can be found in your LHBS.  Download Bru'n Water to get the profile you want.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: braufessor on January 26, 2017, 01:28:14 PM
Per the 2016 Las Vegas water report, average values are:

* ALKALINITY             146 ppm
* CHLORIDE               92  ppm
* SULFATE                 235 ppm
* CALCIUM                 79  ppm
* MAGNESIUM            26  ppm

* TOTAL HARDNESS    303 ppm

"In the Las Vegas Valley, the two nontoxic minerals that cause our hard water are calcium and magnesium. The hardness of Las Vegas Valley Water District water is 302 parts per million (ppm) or 18 grains per gallon, categorized as "very hard.""

So that would be ~ 2:5 ratio of Chloride to Sulfate or too heavy on the sulfate?

https://www.lvvwd.com/assets/pdf/wq_summary_lvvwd.pdf (https://www.lvvwd.com/assets/pdf/wq_summary_lvvwd.pdf)

Does 'soft' water that produces a 'soft pillowy mouthfeel'?

Not sure what else to look for ...

Yeah - I agree that is on the high side of sulfate for this kind of beer.  I would lean toward RO water as suggested above.  At the very least, you might be able to cut the water 50/50 with RO water and then add approximately 1/2-3/4 tsp of CaCl per 5 gallons back in.  That would effectively cut the sulfate to 120 or so.  And then the calcium chloride addition would bump the chloride and calcium back up to the ballpark area you are looking for.

That said - none of this accounts for your mash pH/beer pH which is important.  You would still have alkalinity in there that is not great to have.  Off the top of my head, 1ml of lactic acid per 5 gallons would probably do the trick  (or get you close)in that regard.

The refill stations with 3 or 5 gallon jugs for RO water in supermarkets/walmart are definitely the way to go - cheap and easy.  Brun Water is also a great tool - it is what I use.  A bit daunting on first glance - but not that bad once you get going on it.

I would still recommend the original suggestion of 100%  RO water as being ideal.   The above would probably get you close.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 26, 2017, 07:10:23 PM


I am however still searching for a recipe that will results in what looks like you poured tropicana orange juice in a glass reminiscent of brews from omnipollo, noble ale works, highland park— especially omnipollo!  I think it's just filters from photo software  ;D.  Ive used combinations of 2-row, red wheat, flaked oats, flaked barley, C-40, carapils, honey malt, oat malt, Munich I and II you name it.  Any and all suggestions would be great!

just my 2 cents... cheers!

I brew these all the time.... probably 50+ batches at the very least.  Here is a link to my recipe/strategy.  If you follow the link in the first post to post #1418, that is what I would currently recommend.  Additionally.... I would say that my strategy of using the "dry hop keg" for the second dry hop is not necessary based on some recent batches I have brewed.  You could simply add all of the dry hops to primary at day 3-4 or you could add half at day 3-4 and the other half around day 10-12 ..... 2 days before kegging.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

To the OP....
Honestly - I don't find Heady Topper to be "juicy" in the same regard as say Treehouse, Trillium, Toppling Goliath, etc.  It is a far more assertive DIPA than many others.

I think the key things in my experience.....
*Water - use 100% RO water.  5.4 pH in mash and boil kettle pre-boil.  Get both sulfate and chloride into the 80-140 range.... As long as they are both in that range somewhere, you will be ok in my experience.  Calcium in the 80-90-100 kind of range.  Simple solution - 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of 100% RO water used in mash and sparge.  No acid needed.  That gets you in the ball park - around 120-140 each of sulfate and Chloride with that strategy.

*I use 80% base malt and 18% combination of flaked grains/wheat in any combination basically.  2% honey malt is for a bit of color and sweetness

*I prefer citra/mosaic/galaxy combinations with a 30-50 IBU bittering of Warrior

*Hop stand after flame out and a bit of chilling... get wort down to 170 or so, dump hops in, 30 minutes of steep, stir it up occasionally.

*Yeast is not as important as people make it out.  You do not want the beer "yeasty".  Honestly, I really like 1272 and 1056 for this beer, along with Conan.  I am not a huge fan of 1318 personally.... comes off as "tart" to me.

*Big dry hop at day 3 of ferment.... I think the "haze" seems to come from the hop stand and the first dry hop during fermentation.  I think that is where the "juicy" flavors of hops also come from.

Check out the recipe link above and you might get some other ideas you could add to what you are doing.

The batch I have on tap right now -
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/kpk028/beer%202_zpsz7dqr3ou.jpg) (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/kpk028/media/beer%202_zpsz7dqr3ou.jpg.html)

holy cow.that is awesome, but What does your hop costs look like?
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: braufessor on January 26, 2017, 10:04:02 PM


holy cow.that is awesome, but What does your hop costs look like?

I will neither confirm nor deny that I ordered $500 worth of hops from Hop Heaven several months ago :o 

I buy everything by the pound..... so, $1-$1.50 per pound...... If I am going with Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic combos that can obviously be $12-$18 worth for a brew.  You sure as heck do not want to brew these and buy your hops by the ounce.

However, the other beers I tend to brew a lot use much less in the way of hops -
German Lagers
Blonde Ales/Kolsch
Dark Mild
Porters
etc..... so, that kind of averages things out a bit.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 26, 2017, 10:26:03 PM


holy cow.that is awesome, but What does your hop costs look like?

I will neither confirm nor deny that I ordered $500 worth of hops from Hop Heaven several months ago :o 

I buy everything by the pound..... so, $1-$1.50 per pound...... If I am going with Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic combos that can obviously be $12-$18 worth for a brew.  You sure as heck do not want to brew these and buy your hops by the ounce.

However, the other beers I tend to brew a lot use much less in the way of hops -
German Lagers
Blonde Ales/Kolsch
Dark Mild
Porters
etc..... so, that kind of averages things out a bit.




We clearly have a lot in common, brewing wise. I buy a ton of hops, use a ton in AIPA and APA (aside from the fact that I don't/haven't brewed NEIPA), but I also need variety after a beer like that and love to brew lagers and several other styles. My hops in the freezer constitute a....umm....large amount.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: braufessor on January 26, 2017, 11:18:09 PM


holy cow.that is awesome, but What does your hop costs look like?

I will neither confirm nor deny that I ordered $500 worth of hops from Hop Heaven several months ago :o 

I buy everything by the pound..... so, $1-$1.50 per pound...... If I am going with Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic combos that can obviously be $12-$18 worth for a brew.  You sure as heck do not want to brew these and buy your hops by the ounce.

However, the other beers I tend to brew a lot use much less in the way of hops -
German Lagers
Blonde Ales/Kolsch
Dark Mild
Porters
etc..... so, that kind of averages things out a bit.




We clearly have a lot in common, brewing wise. I buy a ton of hops, use a ton in AIPA and APA (aside from the fact that I don't/haven't brewed NEIPA), but I also need variety after a beer like that and love to brew lagers and several other styles. My hops in the freezer constitute a....umm....large amount.

Yeah..... I needed this last order of hops like I needed a hole in the head.  But, on a bright note - I am good for a year+ for sure :)  Plus it is nice to have them on hand and not end up scrounging around trying to buy 4 ounces of galaxy here and there for crazy amounts.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 26, 2017, 11:30:09 PM
For sure. It's great to have options.    :)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ultravista on January 28, 2017, 12:29:25 AM
There was a lot of noise in this thread, glad it died-down.

I will work on the water profile, starting with RO and bump-up the Chloride. Other than fermenting with the Vermont strain @ low temps, heavy whirlpool and dry hopping, what else ya got to tweak the kit recipe?
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: braufessor on January 28, 2017, 02:15:10 PM
There was a lot of noise in this thread, glad it died-down.

I will work on the water profile, starting with RO and bump-up the Chloride. Other than fermenting with the Vermont strain @ low temps, heavy whirlpool and dry hopping, what else ya got to tweak the kit recipe?

Have you used the vermont strain before??

I (and many others) have found it to be a bit finicky first generation - especially in a bigger beer.  It is not uncommon for people brewing 1.060+ beers with a single vial/pack to have it poop out on them around 1.018 or so.  If you are using it first generation, I would make sure to take steps to ensure large, healthy, active pitch.

Personally, I really like the yeast - but I never pitch it to a bigger IPA first generation.  My general protocol is to brew a 1.040 blonde ale first generation - low hops, no dry hop.  I then collect the yeast from the fermenter to 6  1/2 - 1 pint mason jars.  Then I use the 2nd generation for my IPA's.   I use the 6th jar for another blonde ale - repeat the yeast harvesting.  Generally, I do this 3-4 times before starting over again. 

When I use the 2nd+ generation yeast/starters, I routinely finish around 1.011-1.012 on pretty much every beer.

Otherwise, I would say to make sure you keep track of the steps you take this time, and perhaps adjust accordingly on future beers.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ultravista on January 28, 2017, 04:05:15 PM
braufessor - I am reusing my (Vermont) yeast and on to the 3rd generation :)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 28, 2017, 04:56:09 PM
Make sure to account for trub loss when you are using this volume of hops. Especially if they're whole hops. Not sure if you're using a hop bag or not or if you're kegging or not, but large hop particles can clog keg plumbing, so rack carefully.
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ultravista on January 28, 2017, 05:13:48 PM
I have a 6x18 400 micron hop spider and let it drain into the kettle before draining. My batch sizes are 6 gallons to account for loss :)
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: el_capitan on January 28, 2017, 05:29:59 PM
There was a lot of noise in this thread, glad it died-down.

I will work on the water profile, starting with RO and bump-up the Chloride. Other than fermenting with the Vermont strain @ low temps, heavy whirlpool and dry hopping, what else ya got to tweak the kit recipe?

Have you used the vermont strain before??

I (and many others) have found it to be a bit finicky first generation - especially in a bigger beer.  It is not uncommon for people brewing 1.060+ beers with a single vial/pack to have it poop out on them around 1.018 or so.  If you are using it first generation, I would make sure to take steps to ensure large, healthy, active pitch.

Personally, I really like the yeast - but I never pitch it to a bigger IPA first generation.  My general protocol is to brew a 1.040 blonde ale first generation - low hops, no dry hop.  I then collect the yeast from the fermenter to 6  1/2 - 1 pint mason jars.  Then I use the 2nd generation for my IPA's.   I use the 6th jar for another blonde ale - repeat the yeast harvesting.  Generally, I do this 3-4 times before starting over again. 

When I use the 2nd+ generation yeast/starters, I routinely finish around 1.011-1.012 on pretty much every beer.

Otherwise, I would say to make sure you keep track of the steps you take this time, and perhaps adjust accordingly on future beers.

I'm using Conan for the first time and just kegging an IPA today.  I'll have to check the FG and see where it's at.  I'm thinking I kind of screwed up on this one, because the ferment temp spiked on me (up to 72) and then I dropped it back to 65, which pretty much shut down the yeast.  I warmed it back up and swirled it a couple times, and gave it another week to finish.  I'll check it today.  I appreciate your good advice, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this beer turned out. 
Title: Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
Post by: ultravista on January 28, 2017, 05:33:29 PM
FYI - I just completed an imperial porter w/Conan (3rd gen). It started @ 1.093 and rose to 75 after two days (very active) before I noticed, dropped it down to 68-69 and let it go. It appeared to have stopped @ 1.018 (14 days) so I applied heat to 74. After a few more days, it dropped to 1.014 and that is where I shall leave it.