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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: BrewBama on January 27, 2017, 01:55:59 PM

Title: State of the Forum
Post by: BrewBama on January 27, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Lately, It seems every thread turns into a technique discussion or derails into some rabbit hole. For example, it goes something like this:

OP: what hops should I use for XYZ style?
A1: Cascade
A2: I live in Timbuktu
A3: I used to live there but the local beer sucked so I moved when I was five
A4: that's because you're brewing wrong. You have to use this spreadsheet for your cleaning solution otherwise your beer sucks.
A4: I disagree it has to be based on stone tablet writings or your beer sucks.
A5: Mosaic
A6: if I lived in Timbuktu I'd fish the crap water creek more.
A7: Brewing only works THIS way and if you don't do it like the Tibetan Buddhist Monks your beer sucks
A8: ...but Timbuktu is where I grew up and the river went dry
A9: I use Nelson Sauvin

...and on and on. Totally derailed from the initial post.

We gotta stay on point folks. The OP had something to say that is not currently being discussed so (s)he started a new thread.

If you want to discuss fishing that's cool. Start your own thread.

If you want to argue the advantages of brewing like Tibetan Buddhist Monks that's cool.  Start your own thread.

It's becoming a drag to come here to discuss experiences, techniques, and creations.


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Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: tommymorris on January 27, 2017, 02:06:11 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Hand of Dom on January 27, 2017, 02:15:10 PM
magnum.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: klickitat jim on January 27, 2017, 02:34:56 PM
I agree, but the only fishing thing I remember was a thread I started and it was about fishing
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: beersk on January 27, 2017, 02:43:26 PM
Ummmm, 12!
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: JJeffers09 on January 27, 2017, 02:50:07 PM
Bravo!

I'm a guilty one, it's difficult not to fall into this new rhythm the threads are taking.

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Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Delo on January 27, 2017, 03:00:16 PM
Bravo!
Bravo hops are a terrible idea!  Tibetan monks would be rolling over in their graves.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 03:01:17 PM
I have mixed feelings..... I can see your point... We should indeed all try harder to always address the OP's concerns and tie back to the OP as much as possible.  And if not, yes, new thread.  But on the other hand, there are entertaining times as well.  A little bit of derail is a good thing.  Out of hand, a bad thing.  Yeah.  The most important thing is "balance".  It's all about "balance".  ;)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Phil_M on January 27, 2017, 03:16:48 PM
I think it depends on the thread. I've certainly learned quite a bit from the many derails that have happened on here.

Sometimes things turn into a derails when a low oxygen reference is made and people (again) start debating about if it really matters or not. Lately it seems those against low oxygen brewing have been stirring the pot, and that has resulted in a few threads getting derailed. Let the low oxygen folks say their piece and just move on, and debate them in another thread.

If a new member asked about starters, and someone suggested SNS instead of a stirplate, we wouldn't start debating if SNS starters are a valid approach or not.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: theDarkSide on January 27, 2017, 03:19:59 PM
I just found Timbuktu on the map.  Don't think I want to go there if the beer sucks.

Also, I just bought a Timbuk 2 laptop case for someone at work, so there's that. :)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: stpug on January 27, 2017, 03:20:21 PM
If a new member asked about starters, and someone suggested SNS instead of a stirplate, we wouldn't start debating if SNS starters are a valid approach or not.

...anymore :D
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Phil_M on January 27, 2017, 03:23:50 PM
If a new member asked about starters, and someone suggested SNS instead of a stirplate, we wouldn't start debating if SNS starters are a valid approach or not.

...anymore :D

Right. So why not start treating low oxygen the same way? We've got enough members touting its merits, and while I'll agree it's not for everyone, launching into an all-out debate every time someone says low oxygen will help is getting old.

A while back there were many threads about how to reduce oxygen at kegging/racking/cold crashing/etc. They've all dried up, in part because I think some folks don't want to bring up anything related to oxygen. We all need to just relax a bit.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 27, 2017, 03:59:41 PM
Totally agree, Phil.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Big Monk on January 27, 2017, 04:10:36 PM
Totally agree, Phil.

Very well said Phil. At the end of the day we are trying to help. If some people take that another way, then that's a personal decision, but at the heart of it is a desire to help people brew better beer (this doesn't mean you currently brew bad beer).
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dilluh98 on January 27, 2017, 04:17:37 PM
Totally agree, Phil.

Yup. Low oxygen is trending the same way SNS did. It's pretty easy to see the similarities between Mark and Bryan (I mean this as a complement to both) for sticking to their guns and providing evidence-based results. The difference is that SNS is so flippin' easy I don't understand why so many bucked at the concept. Low oxygen, while still quite simple to implement, is a tad more involved.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Hand of Dom on January 27, 2017, 04:21:47 PM
I have mixed feelings..... I can see your point... We should indeed all try harder to always address the OP's concerns and tie back to the OP as much as possible.  And if not, yes, new thread.  But on the other hand, there are entertaining times as well.  A little bit of derail is a good thing.  Out of hand, a bad thing.  Yeah.  The most important thing is "balance".  It's all about "balance".  ;)
I think it depends on the thread. I've certainly learned quite a bit from the many derails that have happened on here.

Sometimes things turn into a derails when a low oxygen reference is made and people (again) start debating about if it really matters or not. Lately it seems those against low oxygen brewing have been stirring the pot, and that has resulted in a few threads getting derailed. Let the low oxygen folks say their piece and just move on, and debate them in another thread.

If a new member asked about starters, and someone suggested SNS instead of a stirplate, we wouldn't start debating if SNS starters are a valid approach or not.

Completely agree with both these points.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Stevie on January 27, 2017, 04:34:20 PM
From what I remember, the resistance wasn't doubting SNS, but because of the anti-stirplate stance of Mark. It's not the introduction of something new as much as it's the discrediting of practices used by many. People don't like to be told they are wrong.

I appreciate the low oxygen research and participation of those spreading its merits, but we all need to "know our audience" before replying. While most of the posts are by advanced brewers, I assume most of the posters/readers fall into the beginner-intermediate crowd. I wouldn't reply to an OP asking about when to add extract with "don't add extract and switch to all-grain." I know that's hyperbolic, but it fits my point.

There is a lot of pot stirring from a few members and even mods. That's sad.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 04:37:18 PM
I'll say this one time and one time only.  Please don't get too excited and don't let this turn into yet another derail.

I think the trouble with LODO is, it's not the standard yet, and barely any people know about it yet -- probably way less than 5% of all homebrewers know anything about it, so every single time that it's brought up, the next question is, "what's LODO?" and we have to go into more detail, yadda yadda, so just by bringing it up at all can turn the whole dang thread into yet another derail.  Maybe one day far in the future, the process will become more well known and understood, and maybe forums like these are the best way to get the information out there, and that's fine, I have no problem with that.  But I can see this both ways.  From one side, LODO proponents see this method as the answer to a LOT of problems, and have been extremely vocal about it, while on the flip side, others see these terms and references as constant reminders of something they don't agree with, don't know anything about, or just are unwilling to accept (yet).  Personally I'm undecided as to the merits at this point but if I had to lean one way, I'm honestly growing more and more tired of constantly hearing of how it can cure-all.  Right or wrong, that's the impression I have and the taste in my mouth at this point in time.

But anyway, we digress, significantly....... ;)  My apologies to all those who will get excited by this response.  My advice: Please DON'T get excited.  After all, I'm truly just another idiot from the interwebs.  I have opinions, and so do you, so let's just feel free to put out our opinions with no fear of retribution, and respect each other.  I promise, I truly promise, that I am actively trying harder to do the same.

Cheers all.  Relax.  Have a homebrew.  :)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: narvin on January 27, 2017, 04:43:21 PM
I like turtles!

... sorry, I had to.  I agree that it's good to stay on topic but i'm not sure it's any worse than it's ever been.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 04:52:45 PM
I agree that it's good to stay on topic but i'm not sure it's any worse than it's ever been.

I do think derails have gotten worse in recent years, in maybe about the past ~2 years.  There's FAR less traffic on all forums these days, too, which only serves to distill out the really vocal and really major obsessive nuts such as myself.  The less obsessive or very knowledgeable folks have largely moved out of the forums because they 1) learned enough and didn't find them valuable any longer, and/or 2) because they don't enjoy discussions with some of those who remain (and the list goes on but these two serve my point).  If true, this is indeed kind of a sad state of the forum (note: tying back to the OP!).

I for one promise I'm a nice guy in real life.  I'm just a real obsessive dork when it comes to homebrewing, that's all.  Profuse apologies to all those I have ever offended.  I really don't mean to.  Hope you all feel the same way if you've ever felt yourself to be in a similar role.  Maybe it really is time to take more of a back seat from here on out.  I'll think about this.  It's just...... difficult to give up an addiction.  And for some of us, like me, these forums truly are an addiction of sorts.  This too is a little bit sad.  A little bit.  :)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: pete b on January 27, 2017, 04:56:21 PM
As far as the aspect of sticking to the original question, I agree and feel bad when the OP, especially when they are new to brewing, don't get good responses and even worse listen to some here air their oxygen free dirty laundry. OTOH sometimes derails are fun and useful. I say as long as the OP isn't disrespected a derail can be OK and adds to a conversational tone.
As far as the aspect of civility goes I just wish people on both sides of an issue would be more respectful at the same time not be too thin skinned.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: case thrower on January 27, 2017, 05:00:44 PM
I like turtles!

... sorry, I had to.  I agree that it's good to stay on topic but i'm not sure it's any worse than it's ever been.

Yeah, Happy Together is a great song.

I've been reading here quite a long time and Narvin is right.  It's no worse.  I realized a long while back that if the poster didn't get an answer to his specific question within the first page, he wasn't going to get one.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Phil_M on January 27, 2017, 05:04:07 PM
From what I remember, the resistance wasn't doubting SNS, but because of the anti-stirplate stance of Mark. It's not the introduction of something new as much as it's the discrediting of practices used by many. People don't like to be told they are wrong.

I appreciate the low oxygen research and participation of those spreading its merits, but we all need to "know our audience" before replying. While most of the posts are by advanced brewers, I assume most of the posters/readers fall into the beginner-intermediate crowd. I wouldn't reply to an OP asking about when to add extract with "don't add extract and switch to all-grain." I know that's hyperbolic, but it fits my point.

There is a lot of pot stirring from a few members and even mods. That's sad.

I don't see adding advanced techniques to such a post is in and of itself a bad thing though. More knowledge isn't an issue if it may help the OP, even if only in the long run.

However, if that's the case, I would agree it would best to say "well ideally you'd do x, but in the meantime try y." For example, somebody complaining about oxidation in a dry Irish stout may be told that low oxygen is the ultimate solution, but in the meantime, just try spunding. (Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common practice...)

But I digress...though I tried to still relate it to the topic at hand...  ;D
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 27, 2017, 05:17:03 PM
Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.



Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   ;D
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: denny on January 27, 2017, 05:18:33 PM
Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.



Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   ;D

How about scheduling?  With my life there's very little chance I could do spunding.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Phil_M on January 27, 2017, 05:23:16 PM
Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.



Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   ;D

How about scheduling?  With my life there's very little chance I could do spunding.

Same. I'm trying a kinda hybrid approach. I'm going to add primings, probably more than I need, and maybe some dry US-05to make sure that I've got active yeast as quickly as possible. We'll see how it works, at any rate it shouldn't be worse than simply keg conditioning.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 27, 2017, 05:28:22 PM
Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.



Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   ;D

How about scheduling?  With my life there's very little chance I could do spunding.


It's tricky to hit perfectly at 4 points over FG when you have to work. I kegged the lagers at day 5 and the IPA on day 4, and got both mostly carbed. I think the best attribute though is having active yeast to scavenge the O2 fron the keg.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 05:28:47 PM
You guys are colossally derailing here.  :)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 27, 2017, 05:32:18 PM
You guys are colossally derailing here.  :)


Outta control.  ;D.  Totally my bad.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 05:36:14 PM
You guys are colossally derailing here.  :)

Outta control.  ;D.  Totally my bad.

This is why the mere mention of the term "low oxygen" needs to be handled with EXTREME care, every single damn time.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Phil_M on January 27, 2017, 05:40:43 PM
I think most posters on this forum treat threads as conversations...we act like we're all standing around talking. The issue is OP isn't standing next to us and we just kinda forget they're there...
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Stevie on January 27, 2017, 05:57:08 PM
I think most posters on this forum treat threads as conversations...we act like we're all standing around talking. The issue is OP isn't standing next to us and we just kinda forget they're there...
the OP is that rando that just walked up while we were playing darts.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: denny on January 27, 2017, 06:05:00 PM
Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.



Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   ;D

How about scheduling?  With my life there's very little chance I could do spunding.


It's tricky to hit perfectly at 4 points over FG when you have to work. I kegged the lagers at day 5 and the IPA on day 4, and got both mostly carbed. I think the best attribute though is having active yeast to scavenge the O2 fron the keg.

Work and travel.  One of many reasons the whole LODO procedure is nothing I'm interested in.  It just doesn't fit my life and the way I like to brew.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 06:06:31 PM
Uh... anybody know where we can find a moderator?  ;)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: denny on January 27, 2017, 06:07:05 PM
Uh... anybody know where we can find a moderator?  ;)

Sure...what's the problem?
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 06:12:07 PM
You're serious, too, aren't you.  Alright then!   :-X
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: narcout on January 27, 2017, 06:14:53 PM
There's FAR less traffic on all forums these days, too

It kind of feels that way.  I wonder if the AHA has any data by which to quantify.

This is the only forum I am active on any longer.  I used to really like the NB forum, but I couldn't hang after the last format change.  There were some good people over there who I wish had made the jump to here though.

r/homebrewing is pretty active, and it seems like there are a lot of newer brewers over there.

It's odd that everything is so fragmented.  Even within the set of AHA members, those active on this forum are a very small minority (visually quite apparent at the forum meetup at the NHC, especially in 2015).
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: denny on January 27, 2017, 06:19:01 PM
You're serious, too, aren't you.  Alright then!   :-X

Very much so.  I hope you weren't implying that expressing an opinion should be off limits.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Phil_M on January 27, 2017, 06:22:27 PM
(I think Dave was trying to keep us all on the OP's original topic, not the low oxygen rabbit hole.  ;))
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: jimmykx250 on January 27, 2017, 06:35:58 PM
I have to be honest I saw the LODO post and never even read it. Need to keep things as simple as i can.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 07:15:46 PM
You're serious, too, aren't you.  Alright then!   :-X
Very much so.  I hope you weren't implying that expressing an opinion should be off limits.

Heck no!  What's still not crystal clear to me is whether the OP must always be respected by default, or whether disrespect of the OP is always allowed and even encouraged by mods.

@jimmy... good for you, man!  Just like Denny as well, I am all about simplicity.

Keep on expressing those opinions, ya'll, I'm all for that, too.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: denny on January 27, 2017, 07:43:41 PM
Heck no!  What's still not crystal clear to me is whether the OP must always be respected by default, or whether disrespect of the OP is always allowed and even encouraged by mods.

Or whether it's disrespect at all or just the natural order of things
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 08:18:40 PM
Heck no!  What's still not crystal clear to me is whether the OP must always be respected by default, or whether disrespect of the OP is always allowed and even encouraged by mods.

Or whether it's disrespect at all or just the natural order of things

Okay, now I get it, clear as crystal.  Thanks.  Most of use don't usually intend any disrespect -- myself included -- even if it might appear that way sometimes.  We all just need to friggin relax.  This is good advice in general, not just in this forum, but in the whole natural order.

Groovy.  Cheers Denny.

:)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 27, 2017, 10:01:05 PM
A friend of mine is a parole agent, and he talks to some pretty crazy people at work that are violent and unstable, and part of his job is telling them the are getting a parole violation and going to jail. Needless to say, this is sure to not go over well with people that are already unstable and violent, yet he rarely gets in altercations with the parolees. His secret-it's in the delivery. He can tell people precisely what they don't want to hear so long as he delivers the message well.

I tell this story because I think the root cause of the occasional conflict here isn't that people have differing brewing practices, but that the delivery of certain messages is flawed.

You can be as right as rain on a subject, but if you come across as a jerk while doing it, you probably won't be received well.

 
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Steve Ruch on January 27, 2017, 10:13:12 PM
I like turtles!
... sorry, I had to.  I agree that it's good to stay on topic but i'm not sure it's any worse than it's ever been.
Yeah, Happy Together is a great song.

The Turtles were one of the opening acts at the Beach Boys summer spectacular show at the Hollywood bowl in 1965. I was there.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 27, 2017, 10:17:27 PM
A friend of mine is a parole agent, and he talks to some pretty crazy people at work that are violent and unstable, and part of his job is telling them the are getting a parole violation and going to jail. Needless to say, this is sure to not go over well with people that are already unstable and violent, yet he rarely gets in altercations with the parolees. His secret-it's in the delivery. He can tell people precisely what they don't want to hear so long as he delivers the message well.

I tell this story because I think the root cause of the occasional conflict here isn't that people have differing brewing practices, but that the delivery of certain messages is flawed.

You can be as right as rain on a subject, but if you come across as a jerk while doing it, you probably won't be received well.

I pretty much agree with this. Things that people type are often misunderstood or misconstrued without any intent. I often think about how my comments are received and if they are meant to be received in that way. Conversely, I can sometimes get a little irritated with others replies to me but it may likely be related to me not understanding that it's supposed to be about what they say not how they say it. Communicating over the interwebs is a strange thing...
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 27, 2017, 10:26:11 PM
A friend of mine is a parole agent, and he talks to some pretty crazy people at work that are violent and unstable, and part of his job is telling them the are getting a parole violation and going to jail. Needless to say, this is sure to not go over well with people that are already unstable and violent, yet he rarely gets in altercations with the parolees. His secret-it's in the delivery. He can tell people precisely what they don't want to hear so long as he delivers the message well.

I tell this story because I think the root cause of the occasional conflict here isn't that people have differing brewing practices, but that the delivery of certain messages is flawed.

You can be as right as rain on a subject, but if you come across as a jerk while doing it, you probably won't be received well.

I pretty much agree with this. Things that people type are often misunderstood or misconstrued without any intent. I often think about how my comments are received and if they are meant to be received in that way. Conversely, I can sometimes get a little irritated with others replies to me but it may likely be related to me not understanding that it's supposed to be about what they say not how they say it. Communicating over the interwebs is a strange thing...

very true.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: skyler on January 27, 2017, 10:32:03 PM
I agree with most of what OP is saying here, but I don't think the issue is the "tangents," I think it is the lack of decorum, which may or may not be intentional. Perhaps the cause is an increased number of arrogant, thin-skinned millennials (no offense to my fellow 90's kids).

This used to be a friendly and helpful forum for moderately skilled to advanced-level brewers back when I was a more regular contributor (2010-2013). This was where you "graduated" to after you outgrew BN and NB (which is where you went after you outgrew HBT and a few more ancient forums). Now you can either get horrible advice from unemployed neckbeards on Reddit or deal with a lot of snooty unpleasantness on this forum.


This is how I see 9 out of 10 conversations go on homebrew forums these days (not just here):

OP: I'm looking into upgrading from my Mr. Beer kit that I have used for two years (it cracked!) and have about $1000 to spend, what should I do?

A1: Buy an aluminum kettle and lots of liquid malt extract. Use lots of specialty malts. Don't follow recipes. You don't want to make BMC crap!

B1: I would get a 10 gallon steel kettle if you're looking to brew 5 gal batches. Then get some bucket fermenters (2 should be enough) or carboys. If you have been brewing for a while, you may want to look into getting a kegging kit, but you will need a decent bottling bucket if you aren't kegging. You may save $$$ by buying a kit. Pay attention to fermentation management - temperature control and yeast starters will make a major improvement! After brewing a few extract batches that you are reasonably happy with, look into building a mash tun - there are lots of different styles, but I like style A (styleabrewing.com/mashtunmadeforme).

C1: The only way to brew is to custom-build this system that will take seventeen engineers and $400,000. B's beer tastes like cat puke because he doesn't have use a tachyon emitter to ionize the atmosphere to hide his IBUs from the Romulan probe. Don't fall into that trap. Here's 4,000 pages of science, most of it is in German, but if you can't figure out what they mean with Google translate, then you shouldn't be brewing, anyway.

D1: Buy a kit!

B2: @C, OP can't read German and he didn't say anything about owning a starship, give it a rest.

C2: Science science science. B can't handle the science of his awful beer.  8)

E: I agree with A - go aluminum. Excellent strength to weight ratio!

C3: Aluminum will work acceptably if you oxidize it properly. Theorhetically, boiling dihydrogen monoxide can make this happen for you. Make sure you manage this well with chemicals because of science.

F: I agree with what B is saying, except I have had no need for yeast starters because I use dry yeast. And don't go with aluminum, it's a lot more hassle for a little less money. I got a bad metallic flavor from my old aluminum kettle and now it just takes up space in the garage. Here's the kit I would recommend: (homebrewshoponothersideofmoon.com/greatkit). C's adherence to the brewing doctrine of the DS9-era Tal Shiar is unproven sci fi and most people want more lens flair.

OP2: Ok, I bought this kit (www.evilhomebrew.com/terriblekit) I can't wait to brew this pliny kit. It cost me $300 for the ingredients, so if it doesn't come out perfect, I am quitting the hobby. Thanks for the help, A and E!



In this instance, C isn't being helpful because they are offering advanced Roddenberrian brewing advice to a relative newb. B is trying to be helpful, but OP is getting directed to doing "what sounds the easiest" rather than "the best they can manage" because of the needless nagging and bragging by C. I, for one, am fascinated by what the LODO community has to say, and I would like to learn more about it and try some experiments to see if the extra effort is worth it. But instead of simply putting together a digestible website to showcase their approach, we get a lot of highly technical arguments that are unnecessary in posts from newbs and moderate-level brewers. This leads to an argument from someone who takes a less technical approach and it has lead to a generally less friendly and easy-going forum.

Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2017, 11:06:38 PM
I agree with most of what OP is saying here, but I don't think the issue is the "tangents," I think it is the lack of decorum, which may or may not be intentional. Perhaps the cause is an increased number of arrogant, thin-skinned millennials (no offense to my fellow 90's kids).

This used to be a friendly and helpful forum for moderately skilled to advanced-level brewers back when I was a more regular contributor (2010-2013). This was where you "graduated" to after you outgrew BN and NB (which is where you went after you outgrew HBT and a few more ancient forums). Now you can either get horrible advice from unemployed neckbeards on Reddit or deal with a lot of snooty unpleasantness on this forum.


This is how I see 9 out of 10 conversations go on homebrew forums these days (not just here):

OP: I'm looking into upgrading from my Mr. Beer kit that I have used for two years (it cracked!) and have about $1000 to spend, what should I do?

A1: Buy.....

Whoa......

+1.0E+100!!!!!!!
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: flars on January 27, 2017, 11:23:35 PM
Nonsense is just to prevalent.  Look what happened to the Boiling Temperature topic.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=28551.45;topicseen
Don't say anything unless you have something relevant to say.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Phil_M on January 27, 2017, 11:41:25 PM
Nonsense is just to prevalent.  Look what happened to the Boiling Temperature topic.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=28551.45;topicseen
Don't say anything unless you have something relevant to say.

I think Bryan added a lot of info, even if he didn't "properly" use acronyms. (National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA))

What bugs me around here is this. Bryan clearly knows his stuff. Not all of his advice may be of interest to you, but I doubt anyone would question his brewing knowledge. (in a general sense, please let's not devolve into nitpicking) Now compare the way many treat Bryan to other knowledgeable sources on this forum, Martin's words are taken as gospel, and rightly so. I know Bryan rubs some folks the wrong way, but let's just try and look past that. (I was one of them) He means well, let's just cut him (and everyone else) some slack, and not assume that any little phrase was intended to inflame.
Title: State of the Forum
Post by: Big Monk on January 28, 2017, 12:49:33 AM
Unfortunately this is going to my last post for while. As tiring as some of you may find our approach, I find it equally tiring that people feel the need to police the forum. No one has deputized anyone here to stand up for the poor, the tired masses, yearning to brew free.

One of the major oversights related to people griping about the delivery of Bryan or I, is that they forget that I, of all people, know exactly what they are getting at. In fact, I know why you do and say what you do in reaction to our posts better than you do. In fact I WAS you in not that far distant of a past. If you have frequented the forum over the last few years you may remember some major shots fired in a very non friendly way between a certain rabeb25 and RPIScotty. Now I  am proud to be a collaborator of Bryan's. In fact, I credit this collaboration with reinvigorating my interest in brewing. I very much enjoy how he gets his points across. I remember when I returned here that this was a shocking revelation for some. My turnaround that is.

We had a good thing going for a while here: positive feedback, great questions and genuine interest. It was so great to see the forum embrace the new presentation of the Low Oxygen information. But as is always the case, someone invariably comes out of nowhere and trudges up some of the same negative sentiments that plagued the first round of Low Oxygen conversation. So now it may be time to focus more on the website and less on the forums. If this recent resurgence of unfounded criticism has done anything, it has shown those who see the merit in the methods the true colors of the type of people they can expect to butt heads with.

I have to say that I would still love to converse with those who have shown a genuine interest in the methods and techniques. You all know who you are and I wish you continued luck and hope you keep devouring the information. PM me if you need any support on the spreadsheets.

One of the major beefs I've seen discussed is the insistence that we somehow are telling people they brew bad beer. I don't think we ever explicitly say that. We DO believe that this is the BEST way to brew beer but that does not mean that YOUR BEER IS BAD! The whole reason we devoted months and months of writing the documents on the website, experimenting, developing the spreadsheets and modifying the methods to include incremental approaches was to SERVE YOU! We feel we can help you brew BETTER beer. If you don't want to brew the best beer you possibly can, what's the point? And if the delivery really bothers you that much: get over it! We are adults after all.

I work in commercial Nuclear as an electrical engineer. There are times when one of our units is down in a forced outage and we are stressed to the gills. We are expected to maintain technical rigor and make the right decisions. We don't always talk cordially. In fact, things get heated even between engineers and first line supervisors. We get our point across bluntly and succinctly and we don't care about the feelings of the receiver, especially when nuclear safety and financial viability are involved. You get over it. You move on. You don't forsake good technical information because it was brought to you in a less than desirable way.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: Phil_M on January 28, 2017, 12:56:14 AM
Derek, I think this place would be better if you guys stuck around.

If anything all this has sparked life back into what was otherwise a dead and dying forum after the last low O2 thing. We need to hash out new techniques, isn't trying new things part of what homebrewing is all about?
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: klickitat jim on January 28, 2017, 02:12:44 AM
The big difference between here and work is the pension.  Other than that, no difference
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: bayareabrewer on January 28, 2017, 02:15:51 AM
The big difference between here and work is the pension.  Other than that, no difference

haha
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: klickitat jim on January 28, 2017, 02:24:52 AM
I was in the tap room at Deschutes Brewing today in Bend and a guy from Eugene asked me if I knew who Denny was. Denny Conn, I says... ya, that's him. I said, never met him but I hear great things.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: JT on January 28, 2017, 03:29:12 AM
I took quite a few months off the forum (and brewing for that matter).  My kegs ran dry, just busy with work and kids, no real other reason.  I returned and found some to be giving more advice and information more freely than I remembered and I thought it was great.  I saw others being more combative than I remembered...  not so great. 
I think we are all here to learn and/or share what we are learning, so grab a pint and chill out already.  Man... we need another Spring Swap!
We're missing enough peeps that contributed quite a bit already.  Where is Ken, Amanda and others?  Don't leave, stick around.  Forums are better with people and opinions!



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: narvin on January 28, 2017, 12:35:47 PM
I asked for more information about making beers with "IT", and people have answered.  Eveyone was annoyed when it was a secret, so what are you complaining about now?

I haven't seen anything combative or snarky recently, so get over IT already  :)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: case thrower on January 28, 2017, 01:16:25 PM
There's a simple solution!  There need to be MULTIPLE AHA FORUMS!!
First there's the NEWBIE forum.  'I just made the 1 gallon kit and it's my first brew and it's in the fermenter and it looks like a tornado in there.  Did I do something wrong?'  These guys just needs to hear the VERY basics.  You know, keep the fermenter somewhat cool and out of the light and don't worry about it, etc.  For crying out loud, they're making beer!  Might be bad beer, might be drinkable beer, but it's beer.
Next would be the INTERMEDIATE forum.  These brewers have the basics down and are dialing in.  The current thread about dry yeasts for an Irish Red is a great example of what this forum can be.  Information is exchanged.
Finally, there's the ADVANCED/GEEK forum.  By now you should have a good idea of how multiple forums would help!
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: klickitat jim on January 28, 2017, 01:22:58 PM
And one forum to rule them all.
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: case thrower on January 28, 2017, 01:30:53 PM
And one forum to rule them all.
Ah, the PRECIOUS forum.  :D
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: dmtaylor on January 28, 2017, 01:40:00 PM
Ahem... Thank you, Keith, for finally doing something.

We now return to our regularly scheduled rambling and tangents, but with zero bickering.  :)
Title: Re: State of the Forum
Post by: majorvices on January 28, 2017, 01:43:39 PM
Just now seeing this. I addressed this here:

Folks, this has to stop. This has gone from a forum where everyone comes in to share brewing knowledge and experience to a place were 1 out of every 10 posts is hijacked and subjectively over ruled based on 1 or 2 people's text book readings. No one's experience matters any longer. You can have a gold medal winning beer at the World Beer Cup but is will be flawed because 1 or 2 folks on this forum has determined that, based on what they have read, you didn't brew it right. It is utterly ridiculous.

If your gig is LODO brewing, that is great! Keep doing it and keep preaching it brother's and sisters! But stop coming onto this forum and telling everyone else is f'ing doing it wrong. Disagree, but stop doing it by screaming "WRONG" and then discrediting based on some arcane science that no one but you has uncovered in some brewing science book no one has read. If you have such knowledge, please bring it out and discuss it. But acting as if YOU personally are the sole arbiter of brewing knowledge will not be tolerated any longer. Period. And YOU know who I am talking about.

This is a forum for ALL levels of brewing. From the very first pitch of yeast to understanding water chemistry to complex microbiology. What has happened is this: A new person posts a question. Answers are given. Then one or two people come in with some seriously challenging and arcane (and frankly, ancient) challenges to simple answers to simple questions that, in the end, make this brewing thing seem so much freaking harder that it really is. And, while I really am digging the science aspect, it is UNWELCOMING. Brewing homebrewed beer can be as simple or complex as you want to make it. There are people making good beer with store bought extract and the yeast under the lid. Period. There are people making all grain beers out of 2000 dollar machines that is CRAP. Period. It doesn't freaking matter if you disagree with their methods of brewing or not. If the beer is good it is GOOD. If it isn't, find a nice damn way of telling them.

The goal of this forum is for people to come here to learn how to brew great beer. It is why I am a moderator here. It is why I contribute here. It isn't something I have to do. It is something I want to do. I want to see this forum succeed. I want to welcome new people here. I freaking want CHALLENGES! The more science the better! In spite of the fact that I am a brewmaster at a brewery distributed state wide, I am seriously challenged when it comes to much of the brewing science discussed here. I don't understand much of it, yet manage to churn out award winning beers anyway.

Like all crafts, what makes this fascination great is that no matter what your skill level and no matter what your brewing knowledge, there is always room for improvement and learning. I love it! But we also have to keep room for the new folks coming it. And this constant bickering is ridiculous.

I personally won't tolerate it any more. I have been a mod here since this forum started. I am also fine being removed from that post if necessary. There are hard and fast rules about being a member here. And, while no rules have been broken necessarily, I am moved to action by my personal belief that we are starting to have serious divisive disagreements that are not only detrimental to the forum society, but are also becoming extremely unwelcome to the newcomer.

Seriously, it stops now. Sharing knowledge is completely encouraged. Being a Nazi is not.

I have been a mod since this forum started. I have addressed the admin and other mods. This will either stop or I will leave here.