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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: greatplainsbrewer on February 05, 2017, 09:09:47 PM

Title: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: greatplainsbrewer on February 05, 2017, 09:09:47 PM
I realize that Galaxy isn't a new hop but this will be my first pale ale with Galaxy hops.  I usually get pretty close to the Pale Ale profile in BruunWater when I make APA's but I did an APA last year using mostly Citra that seemed a little harsh.  I'm wondering if I dial back the sulfates quite a bit if it won't be better with the fruitier hops. By "dialed back" I mean 125 sulfate/102 chloride.  Don't get me wrong- for my more "traditional" Centennial, CTZ, Cascade types of pale ales I really like the Pale Ale water profile.  Just wondering if some of the fruitier hops wouldn't benefit from a more balanced sulfate/chloride ratio.

I realize that to each his own-why else homebrew?- but I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this path and is willing to share?

Thanks
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 05, 2017, 09:28:50 PM
I realize that Galaxy isn't a new hop but this will be my first pale ale with Galaxy hops.  I usually get pretty close to the Pale Ale profile in BruunWater when I make APA's but I did an APA last year using mostly Citra that seemed a little harsh.  I'm wondering if I dial back the sulfates quite a bit if it won't be better with the fruitier hops. By "dialed back" I mean 125 sulfate/102 chloride.  Don't get me wrong- for my more "traditional" Centennial, CTZ, Cascade types of pale ales I really like the Pale Ale water profile.  Just wondering if some of the fruitier hops wouldn't benefit from a more balanced sulfate/chloride ratio.

I realize that to each his own-why else homebrew?- but I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this path and is willing to share?

Thanks



Well, Martin (Mr Brunwater) says to try to avoid 100+ ppm sulfate and chloride in the same beer because it can produce a harsh, minerally tasting beer. So that may explain the harshness you're getting. I don't think Citra hops are harsh in and of themselves. So, assuming you're brewing non NEIPA type beers like I do, I'd back the chloride down to 50-60ppm. I used to use the pale ale profile 300 ppm sulfate but I've been backing the sulfate down recently to around 160 ppm and like the results. There's one brewer's $0.02 for ya! Good luck.



Edit -  Since I brought up the NEIPAs, the chloride and sulfate are basically inverted there, ie., well under 100ppm sulfate and over 100ppm chloride (aside from use of up to 20% flaked grains).
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on February 05, 2017, 10:56:08 PM
I realize that Galaxy isn't a new hop but this will be my first pale ale with Galaxy hops.  I usually get pretty close to the Pale Ale profile in BruunWater when I make APA's but I did an APA last year using mostly Citra that seemed a little harsh.  I'm wondering if I dial back the sulfates quite a bit if it won't be better with the fruitier hops. By "dialed back" I mean 125 sulfate/102 chloride.  Don't get me wrong- for my more "traditional" Centennial, CTZ, Cascade types of pale ales I really like the Pale Ale water profile.  Just wondering if some of the fruitier hops wouldn't benefit from a more balanced sulfate/chloride ratio.

I realize that to each his own-why else homebrew?- but I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this path and is willing to share?

Thanks



Well, Martin (Mr Brunwater) says to try to avoid 100+ ppm sulfate and chloride in the same beer because it can produce a harsh, minerally tasting beer. So that may explain the harshness you're getting. I don't think Citra hops are harsh in and of themselves. So, assuming you're brewing non NEIPA type beers like I do, I'd back the chloride down to 50-60ppm. I used to use the pale ale profile 300 ppm sulfate but I've been backing the sulfate down recently to around 160 ppm and like the results. There's one brewer's $0.02 for ya! Good luck.



Edit -  Since I brought up the NEIPAs, the chloride and sulfate are basically inverted there, ie., well under 100ppm sulfate and over 100ppm chloride (aside from use of up to 20% flaked grains).
So the "yellow" profile would be a better choice?
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 05, 2017, 11:10:26 PM
I realize that Galaxy isn't a new hop but this will be my first pale ale with Galaxy hops.  I usually get pretty close to the Pale Ale profile in BruunWater when I make APA's but I did an APA last year using mostly Citra that seemed a little harsh.  I'm wondering if I dial back the sulfates quite a bit if it won't be better with the fruitier hops. By "dialed back" I mean 125 sulfate/102 chloride.  Don't get me wrong- for my more "traditional" Centennial, CTZ, Cascade types of pale ales I really like the Pale Ale water profile.  Just wondering if some of the fruitier hops wouldn't benefit from a more balanced sulfate/chloride ratio.

I realize that to each his own-why else homebrew?- but I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this path and is willing to share?

Thanks



Well, Martin (Mr Brunwater) says to try to avoid 100+ ppm sulfate and chloride in the same beer because it can produce a harsh, minerally tasting beer. So that may explain the harshness you're getting. I don't think Citra hops are harsh in and of themselves. So, assuming you're brewing non NEIPA type beers like I do, I'd back the chloride down to 50-60ppm. I used to use the pale ale profile 300 ppm sulfate but I've been backing the sulfate down recently to around 160 ppm and like the results. There's one brewer's $0.02 for ya! Good luck.



Edit -  Since I brought up the NEIPAs, the chloride and sulfate are basically inverted there, ie., well under 100ppm sulfate and over 100ppm chloride (aside from use of up to 20% flaked grains).
So the "yellow" profile would be a better choice?


Not necessarily - the profile you use is a preference thing. I'm just saying that it's best to keep chloride levels well under 100 ppm when you use sulfate levels over 100ppm, or vice versa. Overmineralized beer sucks - been there, done it.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on February 05, 2017, 11:12:18 PM
Roger
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: kramerog on February 06, 2017, 12:17:54 AM
Over 100 ppm sulfate and chloride doesn't seem to be an issue in New England IPAs.  Check Scott Janish's blog for more info.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 06, 2017, 12:28:01 AM
Over 100 ppm sulfate and chloride doesn't seem to be an issue in New England IPAs.  Check Scott Janish's blog for more info.


Maybe so. Those are more chloride heavy. I can't speak as a NEIPA expert by any means, but I do trust Martin's advice and have seen the results in sulfate heavy beers  with too much chloride. All in all, I'd rather give water advice to someone on the conservative end and let them run with it.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: kramerog on February 06, 2017, 04:14:12 AM
Over 100 ppm sulfate and chloride doesn't seem to be an issue in New England IPAs.  Check Scott Janish's blog for more info.


Maybe so. Those are more chloride heavy. I can't speak as a NEIPA expert by any means, but I do trust Martin's advice and have seen the results in sulfate heavy beers  with too much chloride. All in all, I'd rather give water advice to someone on the conservative end and let them run with it.
Perhaps our difference viewpoints might be explained by the starting water.  Specifically, a low mineral water - moderate alkalinity is OK - doesn't produce a beer that has unpleasant mineralogy with high sulfate and chloride but a high mineral one does?

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Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: mabrungard on February 06, 2017, 04:07:22 PM
Over 100 ppm sulfate and chloride doesn't seem to be an issue in New England IPAs.  Check Scott Janish's blog for more info.

I have to disagree. NEIPA waters that I've seen, use high chloride and modest sulfate. On the order of 150 ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate seems to work well in the style and is not minerally.

There is latitude in those values and you probably won't have a minerally flavor until sulfate is near 300 and chloride is near 150 ppm.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: greatplainsbrewer on February 07, 2017, 01:33:05 AM
I won't be brewing for a few days but this is what I have on Bruunwater right now.

Calcium  149
Mg           5
Na           4
Sulfate     80
Chloride    153

Mash pH is projected to be 5.38.  Again this isn't a NEIPA, its a 1.052 APA with an all Galaxy hop schedule.  FWH, 10, 5, 0, Dry
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on February 07, 2017, 02:01:58 PM
Shouldn't the sulfate be equal too or higher than the chloride for hop forward beers?
Chloride for dark beers,
Sulfate for yellow beers?
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: dilluh98 on February 07, 2017, 05:59:07 PM
I won't be brewing for a few days but this is what I have on Bruunwater right now.

Calcium  149
Mg           5
Na           4
Sulfate     80
Chloride    153

Mash pH is projected to be 5.38.  Again this isn't a NEIPA, its a 1.052 APA with an all Galaxy hop schedule.  FWH, 10, 5, 0, Dry

I think your salts look good. You may want to consider dropping the mash pH a bit for an APA, say 5.2-5.3. It'll make an APA "pop" a bit more.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: mabrungard on February 07, 2017, 11:47:06 PM
Shouldn't the sulfate be equal too or higher than the chloride for hop forward beers?

No.  NEIPA is a totally different take on water. It relies on a very full malt perception with a huge amount of juicy hops to mesh with the malt.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on February 08, 2017, 02:17:26 AM
Shouldn't the sulfate be equal too or higher than the chloride for hop forward beers?

No.  NEIPA is a totally different take on water. It relies on a very full malt perception with a huge amount of juicy hops to mesh with the malt.

Martin, somehow NEIPA got into the conversation along the line.
The op says he is NOT brewing an NEIPA. So my question was shouldn't the sulfate and chloride be opposite for a non NEIPA? sorry if its me and im just not getting it.
Sulfate 80
Chloride 153
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: stpug on February 08, 2017, 02:38:50 PM
The op says he is NOT brewing an NEIPA. So my question was shouldn't the sulfate and chloride be opposite for a non NEIPA?
Sulfate 80
Chloride 153

Most typically, yes, you are correct.  Flip those quantities and the OP has good levels from which to work.  Good starting point for IPA/APA styles.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 08, 2017, 02:46:49 PM
The op says he is NOT brewing an NEIPA. So my question was shouldn't the sulfate and chloride be opposite for a non NEIPA?
Sulfate 80
Chloride 153

Most typically, yes, you are correct.  Flip those quantities and the OP has good levels from which to work.  Good starting point for IPA/APA styles.


I think I muddied the waters by bringing up NEIPA water salt levels. It used to be easy to get brewers in the ballpark, now you're not sure what style they're brewing to be able to give the right advice.  :)
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on February 08, 2017, 02:58:35 PM
Thanks for clarification guys. I hope this helps the OP as well.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: dilluh98 on February 08, 2017, 04:21:45 PM
I won't be brewing for a few days but this is what I have on Bruunwater right now.

Calcium  149
Mg           5
Na           4
Sulfate     80
Chloride    153

Mash pH is projected to be 5.38.  Again this isn't a NEIPA, its a 1.052 APA with an all Galaxy hop schedule.  FWH, 10, 5, 0, Dry

I think your salts look good. You may want to consider dropping the mash pH a bit for an APA, say 5.2-5.3. It'll make an APA "pop" a bit more.

My bad, I had NEIPA in mind too. SO4 150, Cl 80 would be more "traditional" IPA water. I'd still shoot for a lower pH.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: mabrungard on February 08, 2017, 07:34:47 PM
Martin, somehow NEIPA got into the conversation along the line.
The op says he is NOT brewing an NEIPA. So my question was shouldn't the sulfate and chloride be opposite for a non NEIPA?

Of course personal preference plays a part, but yes, I've found that the more typical sulfate-forward water treatment is welcome in an APA or IPA. The level of that sulfate is certainly a matter of preference.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on February 08, 2017, 07:42:06 PM
Thanks again gentlemen.
I look forward to brewing my next batch.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: bayareabrewer on February 09, 2017, 07:47:17 PM
Martin, somehow NEIPA got into the conversation along the line.
The op says he is NOT brewing an NEIPA. So my question was shouldn't the sulfate and chloride be opposite for a non NEIPA?

Of course personal preference plays a part, but yes, I've found that the more typical sulfate-forward water treatment is welcome in an APA or IPA. The level of that sulfate is certainly a matter of preference.

have you ever gotten a quinine like flavor in lighter style beers, particularly saisons when using an elevated sulfate level?
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: greatplainsbrewer on February 11, 2017, 02:38:18 PM
OP again.  No this isn't a NEIPA but I was wondering about water treatment and fruitier hops, specifically Galaxy.  I appreciate the input and will be brewing this weekend.  Looks like I'll go back more toward a traditional pale ale water with the following:

Ca  93
Mg  4
Na  23
Sulfate  152
Chloride  49
pH  5.28
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on February 11, 2017, 04:37:07 PM
That looks good.
Whats your hop schedule look like? What yeast are you using.
More late hop additions, more flavor and aroma.
Use a yeast that will not take away from the hops.

I hope you have an excellent brew day.
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: greatplainsbrewer on February 11, 2017, 10:53:39 PM
FWH and late.  1450. 
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on February 11, 2017, 11:07:59 PM
I haven't had any experience with wyeast at all.
But if its Denny Bru's favorite i guess it must be good.
Im curious to know how it turns out with Galaxy hops.
Cheers
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on August 12, 2017, 03:38:55 PM
OP again.  No this isn't a NEIPA but I was wondering about water treatment and fruitier hops, specifically Galaxy.  I appreciate the input and will be brewing this weekend.  Looks like I'll go back more toward a traditional pale ale water with the following:

Ca  93
Mg  4
Na  23
Sulfate  152
Chloride  49
pH  5.28
How did this turn out?
Ive learned a lot about my water and what works for me since this post.
How about you?

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Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: greatplainsbrewer on August 13, 2017, 12:41:36 AM
It was ok.  No trouble getting rid of it.  Beer wasn't as fruity as I'd hoped- first time using galaxy hops.  Probably won't repeat it
Title: Re: Galaxy Pale Ale Water
Post by: curtdogg on August 13, 2017, 04:31:13 AM
It was ok.  No trouble getting rid of it.  Beer wasn't as fruity as I'd hoped- first time using galaxy hops.  Probably won't repeat it
What was your grain bill and mash pH?



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