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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Joe Sr. on February 25, 2017, 05:48:54 PM

Title: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 25, 2017, 05:48:54 PM
Can I use regular old Red Star brewers yeast for a FFT?

Is there any reason that wouldn't work?

I'm growing up a big starter to pitch into a stalled fermentation and want to run a FFT to see what I might expect.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 25, 2017, 05:55:35 PM
Yep, that's fine.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 25, 2017, 06:05:21 PM
Same thing I use, too.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: tommymorris on February 25, 2017, 06:06:28 PM
Fast Fourier Transform?

Seriously though. What is a FFT?
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 25, 2017, 06:25:23 PM
Fast Fermentation Test.  Or something similar.

To check for fermentability of your wort with a small sample and ton of yeast.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: tommymorris on February 25, 2017, 06:35:24 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 25, 2017, 06:43:32 PM
Yeah, it's helful to judge whether a beer stalled or is at FG. Also is helpful for knowing when to keg a beer for spunding. Cheap n easy.
 
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 25, 2017, 07:07:02 PM
Fermenting like mad in the FFT.  Stalled at 1.040 in the fermenter.  Apparently the bread yeast works just fine.

Weather's been so crazy here lately I must have had a temp drop in the basement that stalled it out.  All I can figure.

I've got the fermenter in a warm water bath, but no movement.  Active starter going in later today.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 25, 2017, 07:10:48 PM
Fermenting like mad in the FFT.  Stalled at 1.040 in the fermenter.  Apparently the bread yeast works just fine.

Weather's been so crazy here lately I must have had a temp drop in the basement that stalled it out.  All I can figure.

I've got the fermenter in a warm water bath, but no movement.  Active starter going in later today.


That should hopefully help it finish up nicely then.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 25, 2017, 07:52:54 PM
Here's hoping.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: brewinhard on February 25, 2017, 09:58:51 PM
Yeah, it's helful to judge whether a beer stalled or is at FG. Also is helpful for knowing when to keg a beer for spunding. Cheap n easy.
 

Can't this be done without any additional yeast added as well?  Just pulling some wort (small sample) from the fermenter and using the yeast present to quickly ferment it out on a stir plate?
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 25, 2017, 10:23:20 PM
Yeah, it's helful to judge whether a beer stalled or is at FG. Also is helpful for knowing when to keg a beer for spunding. Cheap n easy.
 

Can't this be done without any additional yeast added as well?  Just pulling some wort (small sample) from the fermenter and using the yeast present to quickly ferment it out on a stir plate?


Yeah, I'm doing it on brew day now for spunding, unless it's a recipe I've brewed before. But you can do it after fermentation obviously if you think you stalled.

Edit - I use bread yeast for both. I dont see why your method wouldn't work fine. Force of habit.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: The Beerery on February 25, 2017, 11:28:03 PM
After you oxygentate/stir yeast in pull your FFT from that. Easy peasy.


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Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: brewinhard on February 25, 2017, 11:51:16 PM
After you oxygentate/stir yeast in pull your FFT from that. Easy peasy.


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No need to pull it after a couple days of fermentation then? There will be enough yeast in suspension to tackle the small job?
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: The Beerery on February 25, 2017, 11:58:47 PM
Yup I put mine on a stir plate at room temp.  Solid.


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Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 26, 2017, 12:01:22 AM
I had always used bread yeast because I wanted to be sure I had enough yeast to do the fft. Good info.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 26, 2017, 02:33:24 PM
Checked my fermenter this morning because I heard it bubbling while I was doing laundry.

The warm water bath woke up the yeast and it's back at work with no need for the two liters of starter I've got upstairs.

FFT came down 20 points.  I'd like to get it a little lower, but this is a relatively big beer so it won't be the end of the world.  The bread yeast may have still been working, too.  It hadn't settled out clear yet.

Now the question is what to do with the starters?
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: troybinso on February 26, 2017, 03:44:56 PM
Just because it is bubbling doesn't mean it is actually fermenting. If you warmed up the beer the co2 will start to come out of solution and cause the airlock to bubble even if there isn't active fermentation.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 26, 2017, 03:59:27 PM
Right. When I checked it there was a half inch of krausen do I know it's going again. Overlooked that in my previous post.

Glad I didn't get lazy and pitch a packet of dry yeast yesterday.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 26, 2017, 04:10:08 PM
I had always used bread yeast because I wanted to be sure I had enough yeast to do the fft. Good info.

Using extra yeast is a smart thing to do.  It accelerates the process.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 26, 2017, 04:13:18 PM
I had always used bread yeast because I wanted to be sure I had enough yeast to do the fft. Good info.

Using extra yeast is a smart thing to do.  It accelerates the process.


Yeah, I've always had good results with the bread yeast.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: The Beerery on February 26, 2017, 05:36:32 PM
Brewed Friday, FFT was at final gravity today... using only yeast from the initial sample.  Who knows maybe I have been lucky the last 400 batches. 


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Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 26, 2017, 05:37:26 PM
Brewed Friday, FFT was at final gravity today... using only yeast from the initial sample.  Who knows maybe I have been lucky the last 400 batches. 


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Whereas using bread yeast it likely would have been overnight.  Just another option.  You also used a stir plate.  Many don't.
Title: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: The Beerery on February 26, 2017, 05:39:49 PM
But then that's a false FFT as you uber pitched and overpitching effects final gravity. That and it's not your yeast. I would rather know what MY yeast is going to do since that's what matters to me.


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Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 26, 2017, 05:59:08 PM
But then that's a false FFT as you uber pitched and overpitching effects final gravity. That and it's not your yeast. I would rather know what MY yeast is going to do since that's what matters to me.


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Not in my opinion.  You're testing the limit of fermentability of your wort, not yeast performance.  You do it your way, I'll do it mine.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: The Beerery on February 26, 2017, 06:05:13 PM
Why not test both at once, with no added work?


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Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: natebrews on February 26, 2017, 06:13:39 PM
Do the types of sugars that the bread yeast will consume roughly line up with what brewers yeast consumes, as in there aren't a bunch more that bread yeast will eat? 
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: brewinhard on February 26, 2017, 06:29:18 PM
Well from the small wine thief sample I took from my fermenter yesterday, put in a flask on a stirplate, by this morning the yeast in suspension had already dropped out so I am assuming it has reached FG in well under 24 hrs. I will give it till later this afternoon to test the actual FG.

I like the idea of sticking with the same primary yeast being used for fermentation so one can get a better grasp on how that actual yeast will perform under the worts limits. Fast, easy, and no extra charge.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 26, 2017, 06:34:36 PM
Do the types of sugars that the bread yeast will consume roughly line up with what brewers yeast consumes, as in there aren't a bunch more that bread yeast will eat?

Yep.  Remember that originally bakers got their yeast from brewers. Same yeast strain.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: erockrph on February 26, 2017, 06:48:03 PM
Do the types of sugars that the bread yeast will consume roughly line up with what brewers yeast consumes, as in there aren't a bunch more that bread yeast will eat?

Yep.  Remember that originally bakers got their yeast from brewers. Same yeast strain.
Same species, not same strain. I couldn't imagine brewing a batch with 3711, then pitching a packet of Windsor for my FFT. They wouldn't finish anywhere near each other. I would think that the most applicable results would be with the strain you are pitching.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 26, 2017, 07:01:13 PM
Same species, not same strain. I couldn't imagine brewing a batch with 3711, then pitching a packet of Windsor for my FFT. They wouldn't finish anywhere near each other. I would think that the most applicable results would be with the strain you are pitching.

Thanks for the correction.  I think you overlook that for an FFT you pitch a huge amount of yeast into a small amount of wort.  That pretty much eliminates the differences.  And remember, the purpose of an FFT (at least for me and most) is to test the limit of attenuation, not the performance of the yeast.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: erockrph on February 26, 2017, 07:24:37 PM
Same species, not same strain. I couldn't imagine brewing a batch with 3711, then pitching a packet of Windsor for my FFT. They wouldn't finish anywhere near each other. I would think that the most applicable results would be with the strain you are pitching.

Thanks for the correction.  I think you overlook that for an FFT you pitch a huge amount of yeast into a small amount of wort.  That pretty much eliminates the differences.  And remember, the purpose of an FFT (at least for me and most) is to test the limit of attenuation, not the performance of the yeast.

I guess where I'm getting hung up here is that if a particular strain of yeast can't break down certain sugars, but another can, then you're not getting an accurate picture of the limit of attenuation for the beer that you're brewing.

Back to my earlier example, 3711 finishes anywhere from 1.002-1.008 for me like clockwork, but I can't imagine a bread yeast getting down that far. And if you have a bread yeast that can ferment maltotriose, then Windsor couldn't get down as far as the bread yeast. The wort composition determines fermentability, but the yeast+wort determines attenuation.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 26, 2017, 07:34:59 PM
I guess where I'm getting hung up here is that if a particular strain of yeast can't break down certain sugars, but another can, then you're not getting an accurate picture of the limit of attenuation for the beer that you're brewing.

Back to my earlier example, 3711 finishes anywhere from 1.002-1.008 for me like clockwork, but I can't imagine a bread yeast getting down that far. And if you have a bread yeast that can ferment maltotriose, then Windsor couldn't get down as far as the bread yeast. The wort composition determines fermentability, but the yeast+wort determines attenuation.

Have you ever used a bread yeast?  It will easily ferment that far IME.  And again, we're not (at least I and most people who do the test) concerned about the yeast, we're concerned about the wort. You're testing the yeast, which the FFT isn't really meant for.  Doesn't mean you can't do it that way of you wish.  Bread and beer yeast ferment the same sugars AFAIK.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 26, 2017, 07:39:30 PM
Sheesh. I was just hoping to ensure that the sort was still fermentable and that there wasn't some other problem.

I thought about using the same yeast but a pack of bread yeast worked fine for my purpose.

I can see the benefit of using the same strain you are fermenting with but the bread yeast worked fine for my purpose and was super easy.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 26, 2017, 07:47:26 PM
Sheesh. I was just hoping to ensure that the sort was still fermentable and that there wasn't some other problem.

I thought about using the same yeast but a pack of bread yeast worked fine for my purpose.

I can see the benefit of using the same strain you are fermenting with but the bread yeast worked fine for my purpose and was super easy.

My thinking exactly. 
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: natebrews on February 26, 2017, 07:50:28 PM
I have use different strains from what I'm brewing with and found a difference of 4 points between the FFT and the actual finishing gravity.  That was for a 1968 (batch, 1.012) vs US05 (FFT, 1.008) test. 

I guess it all depends on what you are looking for.  If you want to know when you are 3-5 points from finishing gravity (as in the spunding in the keg situation) then it would seem that you need the same strain.  If you just need to know if you have reasonably fermentable wort (as in the stuck ferment situation), then it would seem like the strain would be largely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: denny on February 26, 2017, 07:56:18 PM
I have use different strains from what I'm brewing with and found a difference of 4 points between the FFT and the actual finishing gravity.  That was for a 1968 (batch, 1.012) vs US05 (FFT, 1.008) test. 

I guess it all depends on what you are looking for.  If you want to know when you are 3-5 points from finishing gravity (as in the spunding in the keg situation) then it would seem that you need the same strain.  If you just need to know if you have reasonably fermentable wort (as in the stuck ferment situation), then it would seem like the strain would be largely irrelevant.

Agreed!
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: erockrph on February 26, 2017, 08:24:01 PM
I have use different strains from what I'm brewing with and found a difference of 4 points between the FFT and the actual finishing gravity.  That was for a 1968 (batch, 1.012) vs US05 (FFT, 1.008) test. 

I guess it all depends on what you are looking for.  If you want to know when you are 3-5 points from finishing gravity (as in the spunding in the keg situation) then it would seem that you need the same strain.  If you just need to know if you have reasonably fermentable wort (as in the stuck ferment situation), then it would seem like the strain would be largely irrelevant.

Agreed!
Me too!
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 26, 2017, 08:25:19 PM
I'll say the bread yeast has worked just fine to determine if my beer stalled in the past, though I don't have many beers stall. As for the extremes of yeast performance (low/moderate attenuating, high floccing strains vs beasts like 3711), I could see how bread yeast might not line up perfectly in terms of attenuation. Nowadays I use a fft to judge when to keg for spunding, and the bread yeast seems to line up pretty accurately with 1056 and 2206, the strains I use for most ales and lagers. Hard to argue with using your actual strain, though.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: The Beerery on February 26, 2017, 08:54:09 PM
I used to use bread yeast as well. Until I was talking to a German brewmaster who was actually appalled at the fact.  I cited braukaiser and he just laughed at me. He said if you are going though the work of doing a FFT why would you not use the yeast for the beer and get a real picture of the beer.  I said point taken and did it this way. 2 birds 1 stone.  I only need my FFT to be done before day 5 which is spund day.  Luckily it's done on day 2 always. 

It's all good though, whatever works. 


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Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: Joe Sr. on March 06, 2017, 12:08:26 AM
Just a follow up.  The beer is down to 1.012 which is below where the FFT went, but I didn't really let it ferment out.  As I said above, I was just looking to be sure there wasn't some other problem.

Hoping to keg it later this week.
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: brewinhard on March 06, 2017, 12:20:01 AM
I used to use bread yeast as well. Until I was talking to a German brewmaster who was actually appalled at the fact.  I cited braukaiser and he just laughed at me. He said if you are going though the work of doing a FFT why would you not use the yeast for the beer and get a real picture of the beer.  I said point taken and did it this way. 2 birds 1 stone.  I only need my FFT to be done before day 5 which is spund day.  Luckily it's done on day 2 always. 

It's all good though, whatever works. 


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And pulling a small hydrometer size sample after mixing pitching strain with original chilled wort prior to putting into fermentation chamber is super easy and fast. Piece of cake!
Title: Re: Bread Yeast for FFT?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 06, 2017, 12:27:38 AM
I used to use bread yeast as well. Until I was talking to a German brewmaster who was actually appalled at the fact.  I cited braukaiser and he just laughed at me. He said if you are going though the work of doing a FFT why would you not use the yeast for the beer and get a real picture of the beer.  I said point taken and did it this way. 2 birds 1 stone.  I only need my FFT to be done before day 5 which is spund day.  Luckily it's done on day 2 always. 

It's all good though, whatever works. 


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And pulling a small hydrometer size sample after mixing pitching strain with original chilled wort prior to putting into fermentation chamber is super easy and fast. Piece of cake!

Yeah, can't argue with that. I'll be doing that from here on out.