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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Stevie on March 08, 2017, 08:23:44 PM

Title: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Stevie on March 08, 2017, 08:23:44 PM
Where should I be leaning on this? Jever boiled seem ok? I've read it's best to minimize the sulfate, but with the late and dry hops I assume the sulfate would be ok if not over done.

Not going crazy on the late hops. 0.50oz at 20, 1.5oz whirlpool and 1oz dry.

Note: I swear this was discussed recently, but I can't find the thread.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: denny on March 08, 2017, 08:33:41 PM
Jever boiled is what I use for that.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 08, 2017, 08:35:39 PM
I've liked Jever boiled as well.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Stevie on March 08, 2017, 08:47:11 PM
Thanks
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: mabrungard on March 08, 2017, 10:55:41 PM
Sulfate does not make beer bitter nor make hops (noble or otherwise) harsh. It makes the beer finish drier. In my opinion, bitterness is mostly a product of bittering/gravity ratio.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Stevie on March 08, 2017, 10:58:21 PM
Thanks Martin. I was going off old threads where both AJ and you had contributed. I want this to be dry and crisp, so I'll continue with Jever as planned.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Philbrew on March 09, 2017, 12:05:24 AM
Denny or Jon,
When you say you use Jever boiled, that's for mash water not finished beer profile.  Correct?
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 09, 2017, 12:16:55 AM
Denny or Jon,
When you say you use Jever boiled, that's for mash water not finished beer profile.  Correct?

Well, both. Unlike (for example) the pale ale profile where I often back off the sulfate a bit, I generally target the finished Jever profile. Depends on what I'm after though.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Philbrew on March 09, 2017, 01:47:32 AM
Denny or Jon,
When you say you use Jever boiled, that's for mash water not finished beer profile.  Correct?

Well, both. Unlike (for example) the pale ale profile where I often back off the sulfate a bit, I generally target the finished Jever profile. Depends on what I'm after though.
How do you get to 46 ppm CA and 15 ppm NA?

Edit:  Wait, are you adding pickling lime?
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 09, 2017, 02:04:32 AM
Denny or Jon,
When you say you use Jever boiled, that's for mash water not finished beer profile.  Correct?

Well, both. Unlike (for example) the pale ale profile where I often back off the sulfate a bit, I generally target the finished Jever profile. Depends on what I'm after though.
How do you get to 46 ppm CA and 15 ppm NA?

Edit:  Wait, are you adding pickling lime?


I guess I should say that I don't target the exact Na values. I monitor Na to only be sure it doesn't get above 50ppm generally but don't care otherwise. As for the rest, I try to hit the 75 sulfate and 30 chloride values, along with the 46ish Ca. What I do is to add sufficient CaCl2 to hit 30ppm, then add gypsum until I hit the 46ppm Ca. Whatever sulfate value that is deficient to hit the 75ppm sulfate (if any) is then made up with Epsom salt. Of course, epsom = sulfate with no Ca. Balances out that way.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Stevie on March 09, 2017, 02:13:46 AM
Mine is similar, but I'm using Gypsum, CaCl, and salt. No Epsom.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Phil_M on March 09, 2017, 02:19:25 AM
Mine is similar, but I'm using Gypsum, CaCl, and salt. No Epsom.

Why not? I've had a much easier time dialing things in since I got epsom. It's really convenient to have a way to adjust sulfate without messing up your calcium levels.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Stevie on March 09, 2017, 03:12:33 AM
Not avoiding Epsom salt at all. Use it all the time. I just didn't need it to hit my target numbers here. I've been making a habit of including 15ppm sodium in every batch. Doing this here allowed for enough room to not go crazy on the calcium.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Philbrew on March 09, 2017, 04:13:39 PM
Denny or Jon,
When you say you use Jever boiled, that's for mash water not finished beer profile.  Correct?

Well, both. Unlike (for example) the pale ale profile where I often back off the sulfate a bit, I generally target the finished Jever profile. Depends on what I'm after though.
How do you get to 46 ppm CA and 15 ppm NA?

Edit:  Wait, are you adding pickling lime?


I guess I should say that I don't target the exact Na values. I monitor Na to only be sure it doesn't get above 50ppm generally but don't care otherwise. As for the rest, I try to hit the 75 sulfate and 30 chloride values, along with the 46ish Ca. What I do is to add sufficient CaCl2 to hit 30ppm, then add gypsum until I hit the 46ppm Ca. Whatever sulfate value that is deficient to hit the 75ppm sulfate (if any) is then made up with Epsom salt. Of course, epsom = sulfate with no Ca. Balances out that way.
Thanks Jon,  That method worked perfectly and only needed CaCl2 and gypsum when starting with RO, which I do.

Next question...How do you incorporate the SMB when doing a LODO batch?
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 09, 2017, 04:22:54 PM
Denny or Jon,
When you say you use Jever boiled, that's for mash water not finished beer profile.  Correct?

Well, both. Unlike (for example) the pale ale profile where I often back off the sulfate a bit, I generally target the finished Jever profile. Depends on what I'm after though.
How do you get to 46 ppm CA and 15 ppm NA?

Edit:  Wait, are you adding pickling lime?


I guess I should say that I don't target the exact Na values. I monitor Na to only be sure it doesn't get above 50ppm generally but don't care otherwise. As for the rest, I try to hit the 75 sulfate and 30 chloride values, along with the 46ish Ca. What I do is to add sufficient CaCl2 to hit 30ppm, then add gypsum until I hit the 46ppm Ca. Whatever sulfate value that is deficient to hit the 75ppm sulfate (if any) is then made up with Epsom salt. Of course, epsom = sulfate with no Ca. Balances out that way.
Thanks Jon,  That method worked perfectly and only needed CaCl2 and gypsum when starting with RO, which I do.

Next question...How do you incorporate the SMB when doing a LODO batch?


Well, using the trifecta mixture at the recommended .37g/gal , I count on around 45ppm sulfate. For lagers I use CaCl2 only, to hit just over 40ppm Ca, then lactic to correct pH . And for ales, I figure in the assumed 45ppm SO4 to whatever profile I'm using. In other words, if I'm brewing an APA and want 160ppm SO4,  I'll add 115ppm SO4 into software because I know I'm getting the other 45ppm from SMB.


Edited for simple math error.  :)
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on March 09, 2017, 04:30:20 PM
My current hoppy lager used the same water profile as my APA which contains over 200 ppm SO4. In this beer, I feel it has increased the perception of crispness and makes it more identifiable as a lager.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Stevie on March 09, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
Wow. So I guess I shouldn't worry about 70ppm.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 09, 2017, 04:43:26 PM
Wow. So I guess I shouldn't worry about 70ppm.

I wouldn't. Actually my exception is German pils where I like a drier finish. I like 70 to 100 SO4 there.

 
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: zwiller on March 09, 2017, 04:45:33 PM
I think pils water is really forgiving and there is a wide range of acceptable choices provided there little to no alkalinity.  I build mine from distilled, keep it balanced, with all under 50ppm.  I have also done a few 100% distilled and that is good too.  I never did side by sides but dang if I could really tell the difference...  That said, the key to dry and crisp is a lower pH 5.2.  4-5% acid malt gets you there but I am looking forward to going LODO someday and plan to try homemade sauergut.  I will probably just add a bit of CaCL to distilled again once I start messing with SMB.  KISS.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Philbrew on March 09, 2017, 06:34:49 PM
Denny or Jon,
When you say you use Jever boiled, that's for mash water not finished beer profile.  Correct?

Well, both. Unlike (for example) the pale ale profile where I often back off the sulfate a bit, I generally target the finished Jever profile. Depends on what I'm after though.
How do you get to 46 ppm CA and 15 ppm NA?

Edit:  Wait, are you adding pickling lime?


I guess I should say that I don't target the exact Na values. I monitor Na to only be sure it doesn't get above 50ppm generally but don't care otherwise. As for the rest, I try to hit the 75 sulfate and 30 chloride values, along with the 46ish Ca. What I do is to add sufficient CaCl2 to hit 30ppm, then add gypsum until I hit the 46ppm Ca. Whatever sulfate value that is deficient to hit the 75ppm sulfate (if any) is then made up with Epsom salt. Of course, epsom = sulfate with no Ca. Balances out that way.
Thanks Jon,  That method worked perfectly and only needed CaCl2 and gypsum when starting with RO, which I do.

Next question...How do you incorporate the SMB when doing a LODO batch?


Well, using the trifecta mixture at the recommended .37g/gal , I count on around 45ppm sulfate. For lagers I use CaCl2 only, to hit just over 40ppm Ca, then lactic to correct pH . And for ales, I figure in the assumed 45ppm SO4 to whatever profile I'm using. In other words, if I'm brewing an APA and want 160ppm SO4,  I'll add 115ppm SO4 into software because I know I'm getting the other 45ppm from SMB.


Edited for simple math error.  :)
But, for lagers, 40 ppm Ca from CaCl2 is going to yield ~80 ppm Cl.  Way more than the 30 ppm in Jever boiled.  Combined with 45 SO4 gives a "very full" profile while Jever boiled is a "very dry" profile. ??
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 09, 2017, 11:27:29 PM
But, for lagers, 40 ppm Ca from CaCl2 is going to yield ~80 ppm Cl.  Way more than the 30 ppm in Jever boiled.  Combined with 45 SO4 gives a "very full" profile while Jever boiled is a "very dry" profile. ??



Right. I posted above that for German pils, I prefer a drier Jever-type profile where I do what I posted last night to hit the profile. As for most OTHER, more malty lagers, I hold the sulfate to that which I get from the SMB portion of the trifecta blend (ie., ~ 45ppm SO4), then get my Ca content from CaCl2. So you're right, that works out to ~ 80ish ppm chloride. Two different approaches, depending on what I'm brewing. For the Jever profile (as I've been lodo brewing), I simply add 45ppm less SO4 into software. Sorry for the confusion, Phil. I'm trying to give advice lodo-free first, unless someone specifically asks for it.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Philbrew on March 10, 2017, 05:00:30 AM
But, for lagers, 40 ppm Ca from CaCl2 is going to yield ~80 ppm Cl.  Way more than the 30 ppm in Jever boiled.  Combined with 45 SO4 gives a "very full" profile while Jever boiled is a "very dry" profile. ??



Right. I posted above that for German pils, I prefer a drier Jever-type profile where I do what I posted last night to hit the profile. As for most OTHER, more malty lagers, I hold the sulfate to that which I get from the SMB portion of the trifecta blend (ie., ~ 45ppm SO4), then get my Ca content from CaCl2. So you're right, that works out to ~ 80ish ppm chloride. Two different approaches, depending on what I'm brewing. For the Jever profile (as I've been lodo brewing), I simply add 45ppm less SO4 into software. Sorry for the confusion, Phil. I'm trying to give advice lodo-free first, unless someone specifically asks for it.
Sounds like we need to start a new thread about water.  8)
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: zwiller on March 10, 2017, 04:29:20 PM
An additional 40ppm of Cl is not gonna take something from very dry to very full.  I once did a mild with 350ppm Cl and it was not "full" at all.  WRT epsom, I recall that magnesium levels jump pretty high using it and there is definitely a flavor component to epsom (metallic sour to me) and remember that malt has plenty of these minerals in it already...  A good salt to use for Cl without the Ca is NaCl, just be sure to used non iodized as iodine kills yeast. 
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: Philbrew on March 10, 2017, 05:11:39 PM
An additional 40ppm of Cl is not gonna take something from very dry to very full.  I once did a mild with 350ppm Cl and it was not "full" at all.
That is something in Brunwater that is confusing.  It bases full, balanced or dry on the ratio of Cl to SO4 not the total amounts.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 10, 2017, 05:24:28 PM
An additional 40ppm of Cl is not gonna take something from very dry to very full.  I once did a mild with 350ppm Cl and it was not "full" at all.
That is something in Brunwater that is confusing.  It bases full, balanced or dry on the ratio of Cl to SO4 not the total amounts.


Sulfate definitely enhances dryness, chloride enhances malt/body fullness. Aside from that one of my takeaways from Brunwater is to keep either sulfate or chloride under 100 if the other exceeds 100ppm, to avoid minerally beer. I don't focus on the ratio at all and more on the amounts. It's all personal preference anyway - I try a profile and make changes based on what I want, as in reducing sulfate from the super high levels of the pale ale profile.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pils Water
Post by: mabrungard on March 10, 2017, 06:24:55 PM
It bases full, balanced or dry on the ratio of Cl to SO4 not the total amounts.

I'm pretty sure that the total amounts are listed right there in those profiles. The fact that the ratio is also presented, is secondary. It's when brewers try to apply the ratio when total amounts are either very low or very large that the ratio shouldn't be applied. The ratio is applicable at the SO4 and Cl levels presented in the color-based profiles.