Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: HoosierBrew on April 10, 2017, 10:31:16 PM

Title: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 10, 2017, 10:31:16 PM
From Stan H's blog, an interesting article about how different the character from hops like Cascade and Chinook can be when grown further and further east from the West Coast. I get the terroir thing, but didn't realize it could change so much.

http://appellationbeer.com/blog/a-hop-by-any-other-name-the-un-chinooking-of-chinook/
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: denny on April 10, 2017, 11:24:49 PM
I's remarkable, isn't it?
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 10, 2017, 11:30:16 PM
I's remarkable, isn't it?


Yeah it is. I figured there'd be differences, but not to change that drastically. Pretty cool.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 11, 2017, 12:04:42 AM
Local pros who are not big on Chinook found that they really like Chinook grown locally in MI.

Now off to read some Stan article.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: reverseapachemaster on April 11, 2017, 03:10:43 PM
I can believe it. Fuggles are the same way. In England and the US they taste earthy. Grown in eastern Europe as Styrian Goldings and they are a completely different hop.

The variance across the country opens a lot of doors to "new" hops and popular hop flavors in hops that have fallen out of favor. It will be interesting to see how this not only expands demand for locally grown hops but changes the market for patented varieties that are all the rage right now.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: cdawson on April 11, 2017, 03:26:57 PM
I just received a small Chinook and Cascade plant from a local hop grower here in Iowa. I excited to have just a couple hop plants to play around with. Hopefully they produce some hop flavors that I don't mind working with.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: pete b on April 11, 2017, 04:06:59 PM
I grow cascade here in Massachusetts and mine taste strongly of orange whereas when I buy cascade I get strong grapefruit.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 11, 2017, 04:18:26 PM
I grow cascade here in Massachusetts and mine taste strongly of orange whereas when I buy cascade I get strong grapefruit.


Pretty cool, Pete. I assume orangey in a good way?
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: pete b on April 11, 2017, 05:00:20 PM
I grow cascade here in Massachusetts and mine taste strongly of orange whereas when I buy cascade I get strong grapefruit.


Pretty cool, Pete. I assume orangey in a good way?
Yes, in a good way, not in the pukey orange kind of way.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: chumley on April 12, 2017, 04:36:50 PM
My Montana grown Cascades are as grapefruity as those grown in the PNW, even though our climates are pretty different.  I think the commonality of low humidity summers might have something to do with it.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: pete b on April 12, 2017, 05:42:06 PM
My Montana grown Cascades are as grapefruity as those grown in the PNW, even though our climates are pretty different.  I think the commonality of low humidity summers might have something to do with it.
That's interesting. The summers here in New England are generally quite humid, so maybe that is it. I was thinking it might have to do do with soil composition.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 12, 2017, 05:54:58 PM
Yeah, pretty interesting. Like most of us know who buy hops in bulk, there can be pretty noticeable differences in hops year to year, vendor to vendor. But I wouldn't have expected that Cascade and Chinook would ever come off as tropical because of where they were grown. Cool stuff.
 
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: Phil_M on April 12, 2017, 06:05:53 PM
My homegrown cascades, and those of a friend, seem to be more lemon/generic citrus than grapefruit. The fresh aroma is definitely lemony. Very humid here, usually mid upper 90's in the summer.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: b-hoppy on April 13, 2017, 01:30:03 PM
I'll agree with the whole terroir conversation.  A month or so ago while attending the Great Lakes Hop and Barley Conference a brewery located close to the event held a tasting: http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/great_lakes_hop_barley_conference_to_feature_single_hop_craft_beer_tastings.  The unfortunate part of the exercise was the fact that the beers weren't really cleanly brewed and the majority of those who tasted them were  having a hard time finding any appreciable differences. 

I know for one, the Chinook I grow here in NEOhio are much more minty than anything coming out of PNW and those I've tried from Michigan did have a cool pineapple character and were much more different than either mine or the PNW sourced ones I've used.  Hopefully the growers in the non-traditional regions can figure it out and have long term success!
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: dmtaylor on April 13, 2017, 02:17:10 PM
My homegrown Cascades in Wisconsin have less citrus punch, but a huge peppery spiciness.  Very nice IMO but not really a basis for a super IPA except for bittering.  Average alpha acid in my tasting experience is about 6.2% or so, which is about in line with what most would expect -- I had no trouble getting maximum IBUs in my last DIPA using a bittering addition with this estimate.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: zwiller on April 19, 2017, 02:39:21 PM
Funny, was just dreaming the other day about AUS growers running C hops, specifically Centennial.  I think cents has really faded in recent years. 
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: denny on April 19, 2017, 02:41:25 PM
Funny, was just dreaming the other day about AUS growers running C hops, specifically Centennial.  I think cents has really faded in recent years.

Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would.  But there is still too much demand for that.  Butit may explain why you see it less and less.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: mabrungard on April 19, 2017, 03:11:02 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: bayareabrewer on April 19, 2017, 03:32:25 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.

I think I've read somewhere that they're terrible climbers, probably a bigger problem for farms than us. And I'm sure yours are doing good because of the water you give them :)
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 19, 2017, 03:36:40 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.
From YCH Hop School. Denny has been many times, I was there once.

It has a lower yield and some years is adversely affected by the growing conditions. Several growers said that they don't like Centennial - as growers. Stan Hieronymus stated that it is a favorite of Brewers due to it being just about the only Hop with Cis-Rose Oxide, a rose smelling floral compound.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: denny on April 19, 2017, 03:39:11 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.

But you're not a commercial grower!  If you go to Hop and Brew School and ask one of the growers about Centennial, get ready for a tirade!
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: Steve Ruch on April 19, 2017, 05:50:09 PM
If you go to Hop and Brew School and ask one of the growers about Centennial, get ready for a tirade!

Is the tirade included in the Hop and Brew school tuition?  ;)
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: denny on April 19, 2017, 06:03:49 PM
If you go to Hop and Brew School and ask one of the growers about Centennial, get ready for a tirade!

Is the tirade included in the Hop and Brew school tuition?  ;)

No extra charge!
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: zwiller on April 19, 2017, 07:01:06 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.
Stan Hieronymus stated that it is a favorite of Brewers due to it being just about the only Hop with Cis-Rose Oxide, a rose smelling floral compound.

Yep, that's it.  To me, it combines with the citrus and giving an almost liliac/fresh grape note.  Still my favorite.   
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: brewinhard on April 19, 2017, 11:42:36 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.

 And I'm sure yours are doing good because of the water you give them :)

Ha!   8)
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: PharmBrewer on April 22, 2017, 01:22:05 AM
This all makes me wonder besides weather and location what type of soil amendments could radically affect the hop smells and flavor profile?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: b-hoppy on April 22, 2017, 01:55:00 AM
From what I'm coming to find is that most of the legacy growers (PNW) know what the hops need during the reproductive growth phase in the way of nutrients to coax the best oil profile to develop, but there are other factors that play a much bigger role in the quality of the final oil composition.  Growing temperatures throughout the season have a huge impact on the quality of the oil package as does harvest timing as the plants push a ton of energy into making the oils/resins within like the last week or so leading up to harvest.  Now, if you have so much acreage of one variety that it takes you an entire week to harvest, the oil composition of the early harvested vs the late harvested can be quite different, so the lots are generally blended to homogenize things a bit.  It's easy to grow hops, but not so easy to grow high quality hops year in and year out. 
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: fmader on April 25, 2017, 02:14:55 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.

This is interesting to me, because my cascades are my worst growers followed by CTZ. My centennials grow really well. My best grower is chinook. It's like gang busters! I live in NE Ohio.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: pete b on April 25, 2017, 03:28:00 PM
This all makes me wonder besides weather and location what type of soil amendments could radically affect the hop smells and flavor profile?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
I'm interested in this too. Hopefully someone less lazy than me does the research and posts. :D
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: zwiller on April 25, 2017, 06:09:54 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.

This is interesting to me, because my cascades are my worst growers followed by CTZ. My centennials grow really well. My best grower is chinook. It's like gang busters! I live in NE Ohio.

I'm in Sandusky OH and centennial were my best out of cascade, ctz, and crystal.  For the amount of effort, I did not care for hop growing.  Aphids, weeds, oh my!
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: denny on April 25, 2017, 06:21:52 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.

This is interesting to me, because my cascades are my worst growers followed by CTZ. My centennials grow really well. My best grower is chinook. It's like gang busters! I live in NE Ohio.

I'm in Sandusky OH and centennial were my best out of cascade, ctz, and crystal.  For the amount of effort, I did not care for hop growing.  Aphids, weeds, oh my!

Yeah, I grew Cascade for about 12-14 years before deciding it was more trouble than it was worth and tore them out.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: pete b on April 25, 2017, 06:33:19 PM
Hop growers say Centennial is one of the most difficult breeds they grow and if they could get rid of it they would. 

Interesting. My Centennial bines seem as prolific as my Cascade bines. Both are vigorous for me. I had not heard of problems with Centennial before.

This is interesting to me, because my cascades are my worst growers followed by CTZ. My centennials grow really well. My best grower is chinook. It's like gang busters! I live in NE Ohio.

I'm in Sandusky OH and centennial were my best out of cascade, ctz, and crystal.  For the amount of effort, I did not care for hop growing.  Aphids, weeds, oh my!

Yeah, I grew Cascade for about 12-14 years before deciding it was more trouble than it was worth and tore them out.
I actually find them trouble free once established. I mulch, prune, and feed in spring and feed a couple times over the summer and harvest when ready. I would think ripping them out and dismantling the trellises would be more work than its worth given that they are attractive plants even if you didn't bother harvesting.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: denny on April 25, 2017, 06:56:06 PM
I actually find them trouble free once established. I mulch, prune, and feed in spring and feed a couple times over the summer and harvest when ready. I would think ripping them out and dismantling the trellises would be more work than its worth given that they are attractive plants even if you didn't bother harvesting.

Yeah, growing them is easy.  It was the processing and packaging I hated.  I'd get up to 25 lb. from a single plant and it was just to much hassle.  And I didn't trellis..just grew them up a deer fence and across the top.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: chumley on April 25, 2017, 07:58:38 PM
I actually find them trouble free once established. I mulch, prune, and feed in spring and feed a couple times over the summer and harvest when ready. I would think ripping them out and dismantling the trellises would be more work than its worth given that they are attractive plants even if you didn't bother harvesting.

Yeah, growing them is easy.  It was the processing and packaging I hated.  I'd get up to 25 lb. from a single plant and it was just to much hassle.  And I didn't trellis..just grew them up a deer fence and across the top.

I actually like this part.  There is nothing like a fine September day, coming home tired from grouse hunting, to go snip and take down the vines, then sit back in a lawn chair, pouring myself a homebrew, and sit there mindlessly picking hops.  Hey, I am sitting around outside drinking beer and doing something!

Processing is easy.  I just put the plastic tub with the hops into my garage, turn them over by hand for a couple of days, then vacuum seal them up.

What I dislike are all the people I know who grow hops, who don't brew, and want to give me their hops.  People will give me ziplocs full of old yellow hops past their prime, that I know spent a good deal of time picking them.  No!  I don't want your hops, the hops you don't even know what variety they are!  I grow all the hops I need, and order the rest!
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: denny on April 25, 2017, 09:10:21 PM
I actually like this part.  There is nothing like a fine September day, coming home tired from grouse hunting, to go snip and take down the vines, then sit back in a lawn chair, pouring myself a homebrew, and sit there mindlessly picking hops.  Hey, I am sitting around outside drinking beer and doing something!

Processing is easy.  I just put the plastic tub with the hops into my garage, turn them over by hand for a couple of days, then vacuum seal them up.

What I dislike are all the people I know who grow hops, who don't brew, and want to give me their hops.  People will give me ziplocs full of old yellow hops past their prime, that I know spent a good deal of time picking them.  No!  I don't want your hops, the hops you don't even know what variety they are!  I grow all the hops I need, and order the rest!

My situation was different.  Since I grew them on a deer fence, they intertwined and I couldn't take the whole bine down.  I had to pick them cone by cone.  Also, both by experience and by education, I found they needed to be dried as soon as possible.  So I'd pick as many as I could fit into my food dehydrator, dry them, package them the next day, then pick, dry and package more and keep repeating the process.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: b-hoppy on April 26, 2017, 05:21:18 PM
This all makes me wonder besides weather and location what type of soil amendments could radically affect the hop smells and flavor profile?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
I'm interested in this too. Hopefully someone less lazy than me does the research and posts. :D

If you're interested in soil amendments only, home research will probably be the only way you'll find out.  Farmers certainly understand that soil health is at the top of the list when it comes to producing a healthy crop, but serious soil amendment at production scale is an enormous task that generally doesn't happen on a grand scale. 

Larger growers generally reserve their best land to high value crops like apples, wine grapes and hops and work with what they have. 

Here is an article that concurs with what was posted earlier: http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/234/78934/7._Post-Harvest_Quality_Control_Zac_German.pdf
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: zwiller on April 26, 2017, 06:15:10 PM
Maybe it's time for us to stop kidding ourselves and grow hops hydro indoors.  Hint: halide for vegetative and HPS for flowering  ;D
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: erockrph on April 26, 2017, 11:49:25 PM
Maybe it's time for us to stop kidding ourselves and grow hops hydro indoors.  Hint: halide for vegetative and HPS for flowering  ;D
You kid, but the thought has crossed my mind in the past. Imagine a bar/brewpub/tasting room that managed to grow hops indoors under grow lights - especially if they found a way to trellis them across the ceiling. That would be one hell of a cool decor.
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 27, 2017, 12:01:21 AM
Maybe it's time for us to stop kidding ourselves and grow hops hydro indoors.  Hint: halide for vegetative and HPS for flowering  ;D
You kid, but the thought has crossed my mind in the past. Imagine a bar/brewpub/tasting room that managed to grow hops indoors under grow lights - especially if they found a way to trellis them across the ceiling. That would be one hell of a cool decor.


Could make for some interesting house character/terroir. Maybe. The place would smell great !
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: b-hoppy on April 27, 2017, 03:15:59 AM
Maybe it's time for us to stop kidding ourselves and grow hops hydro indoors.  Hint: halide for vegetative and HPS for flowering  ;D

There's more than a few folks trying it and are finding quite a few issues.  I've never had anyone get back to me about vernalization so I know that's a big one.  I guess they'll keep trying as long as it's other peoples $$ they're using, haha.  http://www.coloradoan.com/story/life/food/2016/07/01/csu-professor-pioneers-fast-growing-hops/86599646/
Title: Re: Cascade and Chinook Terroir
Post by: PharmBrewer on April 30, 2017, 01:53:19 AM
Maybe it's time for us to stop kidding ourselves and grow hops hydro indoors.  Hint: halide for vegetative and HPS for flowering  ;D

There's more than a few folks trying it and are finding quite a few issues.  I've never had anyone get back to me about vernalization so I know that's a big one.  I guess they'll keep trying as long as it's other peoples $$ they're using, haha.  http://www.coloradoan.com/story/life/food/2016/07/01/csu-professor-pioneers-fast-growing-hops/86599646/
That is a great article.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk