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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: denny on April 18, 2017, 03:26:26 PM

Title: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 18, 2017, 03:26:26 PM
Do Oxygen Scavenging Chemicals Change Beer Character?

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/writeups/writeup-brewtan-or-do-oxygen-scavenging-chemicals-change-beer-character-updated
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: bjanat on April 18, 2017, 03:57:34 PM
Teaspoons? What's wrong with grams?
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 18, 2017, 03:59:37 PM
Teaspoons? What's wrong with grams?

Nothing, just as there's nothing wrong with teaspoons.  The multi award winning brewer who heads up the Brewtan division at Ajinomoto uses teaspoons.  That's good enough for me.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: bjanat on April 18, 2017, 04:02:31 PM
And what were the DO levels like?
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 18, 2017, 04:25:13 PM
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care and that's not what we were testing.  We cared about the beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: bayareabrewer on April 18, 2017, 04:25:32 PM
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care.  We cared about the beer.

what a concept!
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Big Monk on April 18, 2017, 04:31:52 PM
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care and that's not what we were testing.  We cared about the beer.

Interesting write up. The participants seemed pleased with the beers.

One word of caution though: calling BTB an oxygen scavenger is going to invite comments to the contrary.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 18, 2017, 04:33:26 PM
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care and that's not what we were testing.  We cared about the beer.

Interesting write up. The participants seemed pleased with the beers.

One word of caution though: calling BTB an oxygen scavenger is going to invite comments to the contrary.

Yeah, I realize that.  Drew wrote the headline.  Let people comment to the contrary, I really don't care.

BTW, Derek, how would you characterize it if not an oxygen scavenger?  An oxygen neutralizer?  I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Title: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Big Monk on April 18, 2017, 04:37:50 PM
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care and that's not what we were testing.  We cared about the beer.

Interesting write up. The participants seemed pleased with the beers.

One word of caution though: calling BTB an oxygen scavenger is going to invite comments to the contrary.

Yeah, I realize that.  Drew wrote the headline.  Let people comment to the contrary, I really don't care.

BTW, Derek, how would you characterize it if not an oxygen scavenger?  An oxygen neutralizer?  I'd appreciate your thoughts.

From my understanding, the main point of protection you get from BTB is the prevention of downstream staling reactions and the chelating of metals.

So it is extremely useful for just those reasons. Many people have been combining it with Metabisulfite and even AA with great results. They all having differing mechanisms that are complementary. Some companies offer pre-packaged mixtures of the 3. Antitoxin SBT in particular uses KMeta/AA/Gallotannins.

Long story short, BTB isn't an Oxygen scavenger or a neutralizer, although that doesn't diminish its usefulness one bit.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Phil_M on April 18, 2017, 05:17:35 PM
So, it's the opposite of a catalyst, impeding rather than increasing the reaction rate.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 18, 2017, 06:28:19 PM
BrewTan B is *not* an "oxygen scavenging chemical".  It may reduce protein (enzymatic) and metal ion based oxidative effects but not those caused by free oxygen in solution.

BrewTan B (BTB) *is* a tannic acid containing gallotannins.  These gallotannins bind with certain proteins, specifically those from the proline and thiol groups - that participate in certain enzymatic oxidative reactions and reactions with heavy metals, and drop those proteins and metal ions out of solution.  Chelating is the term used for bonding with metal ions.

Sulfites and Sulfides - including Sodium Metabisulfite (SMB), Sodium Sulfite, Sulfur Trioxide and Sulfur Dioxide *are* oxygen scavengers.  They react with free oxygen in solution to produce various byproducts such as Sulfur Dioxide, various sulfates and sodium salts.

Ascorbic Acid (AA) *is* an oxygen scavenger but has the side effect of producing oxidative products (ions which cause further oxidation such as hydrogen peroxide) when it reacts with the free O2 in solution.  It thus requires those oxidative products be reacted with some third party such as Sulfur Dioxide.

Hence you have the so-called "Trifecta" mixture of SMB/AA/BTB which happens to be made commercially in a product called "Antioxin SBT".

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ANTIOXINSBT.pdf

Finding ones own ratios of each is the trick.

Basically your experiment tested the reduction or elimination of protein (enzymatic) and metal ion based oxidative reactions *not* the reduction or elimination of oxygen based oxidative reactions.   It would be interesting to conduct three of these tests 1.) Eliminate or reduce the protein (enzymatic) and metal ion based oxidative reactions 2.) Eliminate or reduce the oxygen based oxidative reactions and 3.) Eliminate or reduce both protein (enzymatic) and metal ion - and oxygen based oxidative reactions.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: The Beerery on April 18, 2017, 06:45:09 PM
BrewTan B is *not* an "oxygen scavenging chemical".  It may reduce protein based oxidative effects but not those caused by free oxygen in solution.

BrewTan B (BTB) *is* a tannic acid containing gallotannins.  These gallotannins bind with certain proteins, specifically those from the proline and thiol groups - that participate in certain enzymatic oxidative reactions and reactions with heavy metals, and drop those proteins out of solution.

Sulfites and Sulfides - include Sodium Metabisulfite (SMB), Sodium Sulfite, Sulfur Trioxide and Sulfur Dioxide *are* oxygen scavengers.  They react with free oxygen in solution to produce various byproducts such as Sulfur Dioxide, various sulfates and sodium salts.

Ascorbic Acid (AA) *is* an oxygen scavenger but has the side effect of producing oxidative products (ions which cause further oxidation such as hydrogen peroxide) when it reacts with the free O2 in solution.  It thus requires those oxidative products be reacted with some third party such as Sulfur Dioxide.

Hence you have the so-called "Trifecta" mixture of SMB/AA/BTB which happens to be made commercially in a product called "Antioxin SBT".

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ANTIOXINSBT.pdf

Finding ones own ratios of each is the trick.

THIS!
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 18, 2017, 07:14:07 PM
Thank you for your comments.  Ignore the title, read the writeup.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 18, 2017, 07:34:34 PM
Quote
After years of telling people "Oh HSA doesn't matter really", the new hot concern amongst brewers has become any oxygen involved in the brewing process. You'll see references to some fairly complicated brewing methods called LODO (Low Dissolved Oxygen). Supporters of the technique claim some great benefits to the process, but the means to get there is pretty arduous.

But is there a better way through chemistry? Award winning brewer Joe Formanek works for the Japanese firm Anjinomoto that produces, amongst many things, a series of tannic acid products for brewing. The long molecule when dissolved in both the mash and the boil is supposed to improve clarity, yield and reduce oxygen's impact on flavor degradation.

Interesting article but you're not testing anything to do with dissolved oxygen.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 18, 2017, 07:59:54 PM
Quote
After years of telling people "Oh HSA doesn't matter really", the new hot concern amongst brewers has become any oxygen involved in the brewing process. You'll see references to some fairly complicated brewing methods called LODO (Low Dissolved Oxygen). Supporters of the technique claim some great benefits to the process, but the means to get there is pretty arduous.

But is there a better way through chemistry? Award winning brewer Joe Formanek works for the Japanese firm Anjinomoto that produces, amongst many things, a series of tannic acid products for brewing. The long molecule when dissolved in both the mash and the boil is supposed to improve clarity, yield and reduce oxygen's impact on flavor degradation.

Interesting article but you're not testing anything to do with dissolved oxygen.

Thank you for your comment.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: dmtaylor on April 18, 2017, 08:13:00 PM
Well gadzooks.  Maybe I've got to get me some of this magical pink stuff.  Thanks to all the IGORs, Denny, and Drew, for an intriguing set of results.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Andor on April 19, 2017, 12:35:15 AM
Any idea when btb will be available?
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 19, 2017, 01:01:31 AM
Any idea when btb will be available?

Hopefully by summer.  I know the wholesaler is deciding this week.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: majorvices on April 19, 2017, 01:23:48 AM
I've been using BrewTan B (off and on, mostly on) for about 2 years now in both the mash and the boil. I think, if there is a difference, it is something you will see down the road after packaging. I do notice a difference in clarity initially so I have chosen to continue to use it. I would recommend dissolving it first before the mash as well as the  boil because it gets very clumpy (unless, in the experiment, you were dissolving it in the strike water.)

It is very expensive so I'd love not to use it but I do believe it may help with shelf life. But OTOH it is very hard to judge that on the capacity that I brew on.

The only question I have about the experiments is - why on the Earth would any one ever brew a CDA?
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 19, 2017, 01:35:37 AM
I've been using BrewTan B (off and on, mostly on) for about 2 years now in both the mash and the boil. I think, if there is a difference, it is something you will see down the road after packaging. I do notice a difference in clarity initially so I have chosen to continue to use it. I would recommend dissolving it first before the mash as well as the  boil because it gets very clumpy (unless, in the experiment, you were dissolving it in the strike water.)

It is very expensive so I'd love not to use it but I do believe it may help with shelf life. But OTOH it is very hard to judge that on the capacity that I brew on.

The only question I have about the experiments is - why on the Earth would any one ever brew a CDA?

Heh heh.

Yeah, I dissolve it in the strike water as it heats.  I (we) hope to some some extended aging tests, too.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Big Monk on April 19, 2017, 01:41:28 AM
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.


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Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: duelerx on April 19, 2017, 02:20:19 AM
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So if i use a S.S. chiller and R.O water there is no benefit of BTB?
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Big Monk on April 19, 2017, 02:31:21 AM
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So if i use a S.S. chiller and R.O water there is no benefit of BTB?

I wouldn't say zero benefit but it will certainly lessen as you remove variables that would necessitate its main function.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 19, 2017, 02:51:38 PM
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So if i use a S.S. chiller and R.O water there is no benefit of BTB?

You'd need to try it and determine that for yourself.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 19, 2017, 03:45:02 PM
An interesting read:

http://immaculatebrewery.com/oxygen-and-mashing/
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: majorvices on April 19, 2017, 05:15:47 PM
An interesting read:

http://immaculatebrewery.com/oxygen-and-mashing/

Definitely! Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 19, 2017, 09:53:50 PM
I can't say that I know anything about the reactions that are occurring, but I definitely get a pinkish hue in the spent mash and in the foam in the break as it approaches a boil.  Some have said that it is BTB reacting to metals (iron is the suspect) in the wort (I use RO water that comes from a well at my house).  I may have to try some distilled water to see if it is just my water system.  I can say that I see a difference in clarity with BTB and I use it in the strike water and late boil, prior to and with Whirlfloc in close succession, hydrating it each time.

I can attest to Joe's beers.  I had a recent taste of a RIS of his that took Best in Show at this year's Drunk Monk Challenge last month (out of about 700 entries, IIRC). 
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: brewinhard on April 19, 2017, 09:55:29 PM

I can attest to Joe's beers.  I had a recent taste of a RIS of his that took Best in Show at this year's Drunk Monk Challenge last month (out of about 700 entries, IIRC).

I am sure that was horrid... ;D
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Joel5000 on April 20, 2017, 06:03:17 PM
So where can I get some of this magic powder?  Wasn't there some place overseas that would ship to the USA?

Also probably a silly question but the comment about spent grain turning pink made me wonder: will it still be safe to feed the spent grain to my chickens?   ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: EnkAMania on April 20, 2017, 06:33:56 PM
So where can I get some of this magic powder?  Wasn't there some place overseas that would ship to the USA?

Also probably a silly question but the comment about spent grain turning pink made me wonder: will it still be safe to feed the spent grain to my chickens?   ;)

Down under at https://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b.  As for chicken feed, research food grade hydrolysable tannic acid.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Joel5000 on April 20, 2017, 06:51:34 PM
So where can I get some of this magic powder?  Wasn't there some place overseas that would ship to the USA?

Also probably a silly question but the comment about spent grain turning pink made me wonder: will it still be safe to feed the spent grain to my chickens?   ;)

Down under at https://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b.  As for chicken feed, research food grade hydrolysable tannic acid.

Thank you!  Order placed and concerns alleviated.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: erockrph on April 20, 2017, 07:10:08 PM
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.
Any idea whether BTB is beneficial for iron and manganese as well? I would assume if it chelates copper, then it should handle most heavy metal ions, but chelating agents can be wierd about that sometimes.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 20, 2017, 07:12:01 PM
So where can I get some of this magic powder?  Wasn't there some place overseas that would ship to the USA?

Also probably a silly question but the comment about spent grain turning pink made me wonder: will it still be safe to feed the spent grain to my chickens?   ;)

I feed it to my chickens no problem.

The pink hue has been reported by a few people out of the dozens I know who have tried it.  I've used it for maybe 15 batches now and it happened once.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 20, 2017, 07:12:46 PM
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.
Any idea whether BTB is beneficial for iron and manganese as well? I would assume if it chelates copper, then it should handle most heavy metal ions, but chelating agents can be wierd about that sometimes.

I would recommend an email to Joe Formanek.  He probably knows better than anyone here.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 20, 2017, 07:54:53 PM
Why not just use tannin powder?  What additional chemicals does this contain?

http://bsghandcraft.com/index.php/chemicals-parent/additives/tannin-powder-1lb.html
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 20, 2017, 07:55:39 PM
Why not just use tannin powder?  What additional chemicals does this contain?

http://bsghandcraft.com/index.php/chemicals-parent/additives/tannin-powder-1lb.html

Don't believe it's the same thing is it?
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 20, 2017, 08:02:03 PM
Both are gallotannins, I guess the question is are both (HMW) high molecular weight gallotannins (as opposed to LMW, low molecular weight)?  And of course what else, if anything, is in the Brewtan-B.

Haven't tested this myself but I'd think they'd both be derived from similar food-grade tannic materials.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 20, 2017, 08:04:46 PM
Both are gallotannins, I guess the question is are both (HMW) high molecular weight gallotannins (as opposed to LMW, low molecular weight)?  And of course what else, if anything, is in the Brewtan-B.

Haven't tested this myself but I'd think they'd both be derived from similar food-grade tannic materials.

Personally, I'd rather be certain.  Remember, Ajinomoto makes 3 different Brewtan products, so not all gallotanins are created equal.  If I was to guess, I'd say that stuff is for winemaking.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 20, 2017, 08:07:58 PM
Personally, I'd rather be certain.  Remember, Ajinomoto makes 3 different Brewtan products, so not all gallotanins are created equal.  If I was to guess, I'd say that stuff is for winemaking.

Agreed, but what's the difference?  Has anyone ever tested "wine tannins" in a beer mash?
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 20, 2017, 08:12:35 PM
Personally, I'd rather be certain.  Remember, Ajinomoto makes 3 different Brewtan products, so not all gallotanins are created equal.  If I was to guess, I'd say that stuff is for winemaking.

Agreed, but what's the difference?  Has anyone ever tested "wine tannins" in a beer mash?

What's the difference is exactly the question.  I don't want to assume they're the same.  If someone else wants to, that's their decision.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: bayareabrewer on April 20, 2017, 08:31:21 PM
Why not just use tannin powder?  What additional chemicals does this contain?

http://bsghandcraft.com/index.php/chemicals-parent/additives/tannin-powder-1lb.html

tannic compounds are used in wine making, and their makeup can vary substantially. I would be wary of putting that stuff in my beer without knowing exactly what it was.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 20, 2017, 08:40:21 PM
tannic compounds are used in wine making, and their makeup can vary substantially. I would be wary of putting that stuff in my beer without knowing exactly what it was.

I wouldn't be afraid to try it, just not sure how you'd test for residuals in the final product.  Food grade tannin is food grade tannin, worst case you'd probably get a mouth full of astrigency.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Big Monk on April 20, 2017, 08:50:05 PM
Brewtan-B, Antioxin SBT, etc. are all likely using the same gallotannins.


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Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: bayareabrewer on April 20, 2017, 09:52:08 PM
tannic compounds are used in wine making, and their makeup can vary substantially. I would be wary of putting that stuff in my beer without knowing exactly what it was.

I wouldn't be afraid to try it, just not sure how you'd test for residuals in the final product.  Food grade tannin is food grade tannin, worst case you'd probably get a mouth full of astrigency.

personal experience I've seen some pretty harsh tasting oak compounds and other things added to wine tannins that would probably taste pretty nasty in beer.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 20, 2017, 10:31:18 PM
tannic compounds are used in wine making, and their makeup can vary substantially. I would be wary of putting that stuff in my beer without knowing exactly what it was.

I wouldn't be afraid to try it, just not sure how you'd test for residuals in the final product.  Food grade tannin is food grade tannin, worst case you'd probably get a mouth full of astrigency.

personal experience I've seen some pretty harsh tasting oak compounds and other things added to wine tannins that would probably taste pretty nasty in beer.

Yep.  I won't try to talk anybody out of trying it, but I'm not gonna!  For whatever it might be worth, the tannin pictured in that link looked considerably darker than Brewtan.  But who knows how accurate that is.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 20, 2017, 10:47:03 PM
tannic compounds are used in wine making, and their makeup can vary substantially. I would be wary of putting that stuff in my beer without knowing exactly what it was.

I wouldn't be afraid to try it, just not sure how you'd test for residuals in the final product.  Food grade tannin is food grade tannin, worst case you'd probably get a mouth full of astrigency.

personal experience I've seen some pretty harsh tasting oak compounds and other things added to wine tannins that would probably taste pretty nasty in beer.

Yep.  I won't try to talk anybody out of trying it, but I'm not gonna!  For whatever it might be worth, the tannin pictured in that link looked considerably darker than Brewtan.  But who knows how accurate that is.



Yeah, I can't claim to be a winemaker but I've made a lot of cider where I add wine tannin for background character. That stuff's not subtle in the slightest. But the Brewtan at Joe's stated dose is flavor neutral to me and I'm sure you too, Denny. Wine tannin has that puckering, 'sucking on a tea bag' thing to me. Big difference IMO.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 21, 2017, 12:19:01 AM
I agree with the color difference and that certain wine tannins can be harsh due to extraction from wood products but there are also certain wine tannins extracted from grape skins that are lighter in color and perhaps less harsh.

http://www.brewbitz.com/chemicals-enhancers/281-youngs-wine-tannin-50g.html

http://sourbeerblog.com/tannins-in-sour-beer/

Perhaps it's the case that the manufacturer of BrewTan has a proprietary process for extraction of some specific tannins from some specific food product, but then again maybe not as there may be a filler or some other chemical in the mix.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Big Monk on April 21, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.
Any idea whether BTB is beneficial for iron and manganese as well? I would assume if it chelates copper, then it should handle most heavy metal ions, but chelating agents can be wierd about that sometimes.

I would recommend an email to Joe Formanek.  He probably knows better than anyone here.

Definitely Iron. A lot of the literature out there about its use in chelating iron, copper, various other metals. It's also going to drop out proteins and lipids from the mash. It blocks/decelerates Fenton reactions from occurring as well.

So it's easy to see how it would be helpful, even if it isn't an oxygen scavenger.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 21, 2017, 12:27:17 AM
Perhaps this is a better picture or example of grape tannins:

http://www.leeners.com/winemaking/store/grape-tannin.shtml
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 21, 2017, 12:36:16 AM
Perhaps this is a better picture or example of grape tannins:

http://www.leeners.com/winemaking/store/grape-tannin.shtml



That's the stuff I add to cider. Very assertive.

I could be wrong (pretty much any time) but I thought I read a reference to Brewtan being made from gallnuts, from oak trees. Maybe the fact that it's called a gallotannin backs that up. If so, definitely a different grade of tannin. I'd like to see Joe weigh in, so I'll know if I'm right or delusional.  ;D
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: stpug on April 21, 2017, 12:48:03 AM
There's a decent discussion on Tannic Acid vs Tannins where grape-related tannins are one form, and gall nut tannins are another.  Then there appears to be some confusion on the terms 'tannins' vs 'tannic acid' and how they are not necessarily interchangeable, but it's still very iffy to me.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Tannins_vs_tannic_acid
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 21, 2017, 11:14:41 AM
Then there appears to be some confusion on the terms 'tannins' vs 'tannic acid' and how they are not necessarily interchangeable


Thanks for posting. I've been wondering the same thing.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 21, 2017, 04:01:01 PM
So what we're looking for are hydrolyzable gallotannins from Gallnuts and Tara pods.

http://gwi.missouri.edu/publications/presentations-2016/lahue-innovative-oak-tannins.pdf

One can purchase this by the kilogram from China, specifically advertised to be used for beer brewing:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-manufacturer-supply-Gallnuts-extract-tannin_60434009552.html

One can also purchase these extracts from various other sources.

http://www.nutragreenbio.com/product/chinese-gallnut-extract-tannic-acid

From the Anjinomoto website:

https://www.natural-specialities.com/tannic-acid.html#raw-materials

Quote
Typical raw materials include: Chinese gallnuts, alepo nuts, sumac leaves and tara pods.

Metal Chelating from:

http://gwi.missouri.edu/publications/presentations-2016/lahue-innovative-oak-tannins.pdf

Quote
Enological Tannins can form soluble complexes with metals, especially Iron, called chelates

Direct Effect-Unchelated Iron turns reddish brown

Indirect Effect-Unchelated Iron is a catalyst and wine phenolicsturn brown
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: erockrph on April 21, 2017, 05:22:31 PM
Once you dive in, it is pretty interesting how many different tannin varieties there are out there. Scott labs alone markets 11 separate products:

http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/324/ScottTan.pdf

From the descriptions, it sounds like the FT Blanc is closest to what we're looking for.

The FT Blanc Soft is available at a few places, inclusing MoreWine, at reasonable enough prices to try it for yourself:

https://morewinemaking.com/products/tannin-ft-blanc-soft.html
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 21, 2017, 06:16:22 PM
It is interesting.

IMHO BrewTan B is just a repackaged, target marketed, and overpriced version of one (or a mix) of these readily available products.

I'm almost tempted just to order a kg of the stuff from China or one of the other vendors.  Heck maybe order several from different sources (gall nut, tara pod, etc..) mix in some of the Enological Tannins for good measure.  Then combine it with some SMB and ascorbic acid, call it the "Magic Dust - Clear your beer and make it last forever!"
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 21, 2017, 07:21:28 PM
It is interesting.

IMHO BrewTan B is just a repackaged, target marketed, and overpriced version of one (or a mix) of these readily available products.

I'm almost tempted just to order a kg of the stuff from China or one of the other vendors.  Heck maybe order several from different sources (gall nut, tara pod, etc..) mix in some of the Enological Tannins for good measure.  Then combine it with some SMB and ascorbic acid, call it the "Magic Dust - Clear your beer and make it last forever!"

IMHO, and based on working with the company, I really doubt that.  What makes you think so?
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 21, 2017, 07:34:33 PM
It is interesting.

IMHO BrewTan B is just a repackaged, target marketed, and overpriced version of one (or a mix) of these readily available products.

I'm almost tempted just to order a kg of the stuff from China or one of the other vendors.  Heck maybe order several from different sources (gall nut, tara pod, etc..) mix in some of the Enological Tannins for good measure.  Then combine it with some SMB and ascorbic acid, call it the "Magic Dust - Clear your beer and make it last forever!"

IMHO, and based on working with the company, I really doubt that.  What makes you think so?

Because their website indicates they source these tannins from China!

Quote
Typical raw materials include: Chinese gallnuts, alepo nuts, sumac leaves and tara pods.

Because I can buy these exact same tannins from China in bulk (marketed toward beer specifically)!

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-manufacturer-supply-Gallnuts-extract-tannin_60434009552.html

Because their chemistry indicates nothing special except hydrolizable gallotanins and ellagi-tannins:

https://www.natural-specialities.com/tannic-acid.html#chemistry

Because they have no special properties in their product not already inherent to the tannins used.

Because there are many other products on the market incorporating these same tannins.  (aka, AntiOxin SBT, many different wine tannin brands, etc...)

They would have to prove some special manufacturing or extraction process with locally sourced materials that somehow endowed their tannins with something special.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 21, 2017, 07:47:12 PM
MaltMaker, by all means, make your own. Experimenting is great. But keep in mind that, since Brewtan is sold as 'tannic acid', buying gall nuts or ground gall nut tannin may not yield the equivalent, either in efficacy or flavor neutrality. Maybe it will. Have at it and report back.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: stpug on April 21, 2017, 08:09:09 PM
To me, it appears that what MaltMaker has linked to in the alibaba site is an extract of tannic acid from similar host plants as Brewtan B.  It appears to be a spray-dried product as well.  My guess is that it is chemically very similar to Brewtan B.  The processing used to create the tannic acid extract appears to be different as Anjinmoto states their multi-step processing with decent detail whereas the alibaba only states solvent extracted.  Anjinmoto also claims a high level of purity (i.e. lack of impurities), whereas the alibaba doesn't.  Assuming they are as close as they seem, chances are that a person would not notice the difference in beer between these two products used in the same manner.

On that note, I would still prefer to buy Anjinmoto's Brewtan B product because this is something I will eventually consume into my body.  If it was LED ropelights - alibaba FTW, but when it comes to stuff I'm unfamiliar with that I'll consume then I'll tread cautiously.  Additionally, as long as you're willing to pay and wait, then US customers can get the bonafide product from Australia (and it sounds like it may hit US homebrewing markets this year at some point too).
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 21, 2017, 08:18:28 PM
On that note, I would still prefer to buy Anjinmoto's Brewtan B product because this is something I will eventually consume into my body.  If it was LED ropelights - alibaba FTW, but when it comes to stuff I'm unfamiliar with that I'll consume then I'll tread cautiously.  Additionally, as long as you're willing to pay and wait, then US customers can get the bonafide product from Australia (and it sounds like it may hit US homebrewing markets this year at some point too).

Agreed.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 21, 2017, 09:06:10 PM
Both are processed via solvent extraction and spray dried.  Anjimoto's marketing gives "standard process" details, such as "the solvents are carefully chosen to eliminate a variety of impurities"  but that is just general product marketing speak and in a food grade manufacturing environment, making food grade product, would be considered standard practice.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/High-Quality-Gallnut-Extract-Tannin-Powder_60439975611.html

At any rate, I'm really not arguing, just pointing out that there is nothing that stands out as especially unique about Anjimoto's product or process.  If you feel comfortable purchasing it then by all means do so.  I'm more of an experimenter and risk taker and wouldn't be afraid of the Chinese product.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Joel5000 on April 22, 2017, 12:53:22 AM
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.


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What is the significance of copper components?  I use a copper wort chiller and haven't had any problems that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: erockrph on April 22, 2017, 12:06:27 PM
IMHO BrewTan B is just a repackaged, target marketed, and overpriced version of one (or a mix) of these readily available products.

That's almost like calling 10W-30 a repackaged, target marketed  and overpriced version of a combination of crude oil products.

What you consider overpriced, many others will consider as "value-added", and worth the extra cash to acquire in proven, ready-to-use format.

That said, I'm probably going to get a packet of the Scottlab FT Blanc for the hell of it the next time I place a MoreBeer order. I'm not currently a Brewtan user, but for a couple of bucks I'd be willing to try the wine product. I'm probably going to brew a light-ish lager with at least one of my tubes of WLP925, so I'll give this a go then.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 22, 2017, 12:50:52 PM
IMHO BrewTan B is just a repackaged, target marketed, and overpriced version of one (or a mix) of these readily available products.

That's almost like calling 10W-30 a repackaged, target marketed  and overpriced version of a combination of crude oil products.

What you consider overpriced, many others will consider as "value-added", and worth the extra cash to acquire in proven, ready-to-use format.

That said, I'm probably going to get a packet of the Scottlab FT Blanc for the hell of it the next time I place a MoreBeer order. I'm not currently a Brewtan user, but for a couple of bucks I'd be willing to try the wine product. I'm probably going to brew a light-ish lager with at least one of my tubes of WLP925, so I'll give this a go then.

It's more like calling Mobil 10W-30 a repackaged, target marketed and overpriced version of a combination of crude oil products as compared to the bulk tank of oil at your local dealer.

Will be interested to see the results of your FT Blanc experiment.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: Big Monk on April 22, 2017, 12:59:04 PM
Overpriced is a relative term. Is $9.50 for enough BTB for 20+ batches (assuming 5 gal batches) overpriced?


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Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: majorvices on April 22, 2017, 01:02:26 PM
I will say this, having used Brewtan B on a hundred batches or so: the dosage is about 8 grams per bbl in the mash and 5 gms per bbl in the boil. So it may seem like it is "over priced" but the dosage rate is low so when buying in bulk it doesn't seem nearly as expensive.

Also, the one thing the BTB may do that some of the wine tanins may not is dissolve incredibly easy, which may allow it to work far more effectively.

Again, I've used the stuff for a hundred batches or more and the last time I went to buy it I thought "damn this stuff is expensive*, does it really do anything?" Then I have tried a few 4-6 month old bottled beers that, while having some o2 damage were still drinkable and I think it "may" have some benefits down the road. But if any of you are thinking this is a "magic powder" that is going to suddenly cause your beer to turn up a notch you are barking up the wrong tree.

*I believe it is about $700 for about 25 lbs
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: lupulus on April 22, 2017, 02:40:48 PM
A few comments if I may.
First, thanks to the experimenters for taking time to do the testing.
I have using Brewtan B for about 30 batches. Unfortunately in combination with AA and SMB/PMB. It does not hurt. Do not have enough evidence to say it is better.

@Brewtan - Gallotannins (only commenting if it was not mentioned already)
- Gallotannins can be accurately named radical scavengers; and given that if oxygen were to oxidize it would be through free radicals, oxygen scavenger seems ok. There is quite a bit of research on polyphenols as antioxidants, and many of these experiments (not in beer) used tannins as the polyphenol.
- There is not much research on Gallotannins in the mash and taste. Aerts, who has done a few experiments on tannins is the only one I recall, and the results were positive. The postulated mechanism was the antioxidant effect.

@Use of Brewtan
- During the podcast, JF stated that it was to be added 15 min before the end of the boil. The Website states 5-0 min before the end, and 5-0 min is also what has been done in research papers; so I will appreciate if Denny, Joe can provide the rationale/ references for the recommendation in the podcast.
I have been using it 3 min before the end of the boil as recommended in the literature.

@Benefits of Brewtan
- My beer was clear before Brewtan, so I see no effect of Brewtan on clarity.

@Podcast
The podcast came across to me as very positive to Brewtan despite the negative results of the experiment. Yes, confirmation bias was mentioned but there was more focus on the positive anecdotal evidence than on the mixed results. 
It is your podcast, so the editorial angle is certainly your decision how to present a topic. From previous podcasts, it has been my impression that science / data carried more weight than anecdotal evidence; it was not the case this time.
Nonetheless, D&D you are very entertaining and do a great job of presenting information. Thanks for taking the time.
Cheers  ;)

Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 22, 2017, 02:58:53 PM
We revisit the experiment on the episode coming out Wed. including our comments on the original episode.
Title: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: BrewBama on April 22, 2017, 03:12:52 PM
We revisit the experiment on the episode coming out Wed. including our comments on the original episode.

So... you won't brew without it now?

Oops, I know how literal this can get so let me re-phrase: you found benefit to the point that you will continue to use it? Benefit exceeds cost?

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Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 22, 2017, 04:01:01 PM
We revisit the experiment on the episode coming out Wed. including our comments on the original episode.

So... you won't brew without it now?

Oops, I know how literal this can get so let me re-phrase: you found benefit to the point that you will continue to use it? Benefit exceeds cost?

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Yeah, pretty much so.  I'm personally so convinced of it's value that I use it in every batch.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: MaltMaker on April 22, 2017, 04:02:03 PM
Also, the one thing the BTB may do that some of the wine tanins may not is dissolve incredibly easy, which may allow it to work far more effectively.

The hydrolizable gallotannins (gall nut, tara pod, etc...) should readily dissolve in water, though some classes of tannins won't break down with water which would make them unsuitable for use in the mash.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: lupulus on April 23, 2017, 03:57:36 PM

Yeah, pretty much so.  I'm personally so convinced of it's value that I use it in every batch.
[/quote]

So, if you were to summarize your experience:
Does it help during the mash? If so, how?
Does it help during the boil? If so, how?

A few minor questions...
You mentioned clarity and smoothness, feel free to correct me if I misheard you. @clarity: So, your beers were not clear before BTB? Were you using Whirlfloc or similar).
@smoothness - if you were to use the Meilgaard flavor wheel, does it fit somewhere there?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: denny on April 23, 2017, 04:26:47 PM

Yeah, pretty much so.  I'm personally so convinced of it's value that I use it in every batch.

So, if you were to summarize your experience:
Does it help during the mash? If so, how?
Does it help during the boil? If so, how?

A few minor questions...
You mentioned clarity and smoothness, feel free to correct me if I misheard you. @clarity: So, your beers were not clear before BTB? Were you using Whirlfloc or similar).
@smoothness - if you were to use the Meilgaard flavor wheel, does it fit somewhere there?

Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

I use it in both mash and boil so I really can't separate the characteristics. Yes, my beers ended up clear before Brewtan.  Now they are clearer faster.  I also use Whirlfloc and continue to use it in conjunction with Brewtan.  Haven't done the flavor wheel and not interested in doing it.
Title: Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
Post by: lupulus on April 23, 2017, 04:35:27 PM
Thanks.  May be you found IT. Cheers.

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