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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: JJeffers09 on April 20, 2017, 03:25:54 PM

Title: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 20, 2017, 03:25:54 PM
Can we talk early 1900s?  I need some knowledgeable info, or a reliable sources.  For homebrew day I am thinking of brewing a short turnover brew.

Is this a Kentucky beer inspired by kolsch but with a big 30%+ corn and 6row?

Crystals probably never used, but roasts maybe?

Noble hops from the German brewers or Early American?

I feel like I had a very similar thread about a year ago, I think about the velvet brew.  This ale I'm thinking is along the same lines as champagne velvet with an kolsch/cream ale twist.  That's the inspiration anyway.

Someone help school me, because I know next to nothing about this brew.

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: GS on April 20, 2017, 03:28:48 PM
The July/August 2013 issue of Zymurgy features Kentucky Common.

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: dmtaylor on April 20, 2017, 03:43:48 PM
It's like a red cream ale.  Personally reminds me of an English bitter as well, with not so much caramel though.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: coolman26 on April 20, 2017, 03:45:01 PM
Kentucky Common in my mind had the color of Amber Bock. You can search and find a Louisville brewer, Leah Dienes @ Apocalypse Brew Works. She is an authority on Ky Common and its history.


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 20, 2017, 03:47:36 PM
It's like a red cream ale.  Personally reminds me of an English bitter as well, with not so much caramel though.
You think they used Crystal malts?  I have read it used high amount of corn and cheap 6 row.  What color range? Should I go brilliant red like 14-15srm?  The irish red I make is brilliantly red.  I may stay in that range.

Would sticking with an ol' faithful 2row corn and roast work? Maybe a touch of Simpson's Crystal but not more than 3-5%??

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: coolman26 on April 20, 2017, 03:56:30 PM
I didn't think there was any crystal. If you look on the web I saw Leah and her research. It had the recipes posted from back then.


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 20, 2017, 04:03:28 PM
I didn't think there was any crystal. If you look on the web I saw Leah and her research. It had the recipes posted from back then.


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Dienes will bring Apocalypse's Kentucky Common, which she said has a slight caramel flavor, with a light body and crisp finish. It was brewed according to a 1912 recipe found in former Oertel's Brewing Company brew logs that had ended up with a member of the LAGERS Homebrew Club.

I just found this in a Google search.  Idk of any way to obtain caramel flavor without Crystal.  I definitely don't want the sour cream ale thing.

Calling out to LAGERS HBC... What's the recipe?? That would be an amazing share...

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: coolman26 on April 20, 2017, 04:09:14 PM
http://www.bjcp.org/docs/NHC2014-kycommon.pdf


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: gman23 on April 20, 2017, 04:25:07 PM
http://www.bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Beer.pdf

Characteristic Ingredients:
Six-row barley malt was used with 35% corn grits to dilute the excessive protein levels along with 1 to 2% each caramel and black malt. Native American hops, usually about .2 pounds per barrel of Western hops for
bittering and a similar amount of New York hops (such as Clusters) for flavor (15 minutes prior to knock out). Imported continental Saazer-type hops (.1 pounds per barrel) were added at knock out for aroma. Water in the Louisville area was typically moderate to high in carbonates. Mash water was often pre-boiled to precipitate the carbonate and Gypsum was commonly added. Considering the time from mash in to kegging for delivery was typically 6 to 8 days, clearly aggressive top-fermenting yeasts was used.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 20, 2017, 06:37:36 PM
Great info so far.  Thanks guys.  Anyone else have an idea or tried and true recipe I am all ears.

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 20, 2017, 07:17:53 PM
First run of recipe

1.050 OG
29.2IBUs
14.8SRM
4.8% ABV

60.2% 6-row
36.1% Flaked Corn
2.4% Carafa III
1.2% Crystal 30L

Hops
24.4IBUs Northern Brewer - 60m
4.8IBUs Perle - 10m

Okay, now I am considering the water profile...
Amber Balanced
70ppm Calcium
7ppm Magnesium
38ppm Sodium
90ppm Sulfate
81ppm Chloride
-93 Bicarbonate
1.10 SO4/Cl

Lactic Acid to drop to 5.2 is ~0.2707mL/L mash water
That works up to about 12.3mL and that is a lot more than I am used to.

Yeast - undecided.
Of the standard ale strains I have on hand to build up are:
001/051/080/US05/1098/1450
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: Phil_M on April 20, 2017, 09:11:06 PM
It's like a red cream ale.  Personally reminds me of an English bitter as well, with not so much caramel though.

FWIW, many British brewers used corn in their beers back before WWI. It's only after that point that invert sugar became the primary adjunct.

Take that, corn adjuncts =/= craft believers. I wish corn would lose the stigma, it's fantastic if used properly.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 20, 2017, 09:12:49 PM
It's like a red cream ale.  Personally reminds me of an English bitter as well, with not so much caramel though.

FWIW, many British brewers used corn in their beers back before WWI. It's only after that point that invert sugar became the primary adjunct.

Take that, corn adjuncts =/= craft believers. I wish corn would lose the stigma, it's fantastic if used properly.
Yes.  But it's a tricky if...

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: Phil_M on April 20, 2017, 09:33:07 PM
I feel that it's a stigma, much like diacetyl. It's OK if someone doesn't like corn flavor, but I really wish more brewers would experiment with corn.

The issue with corn, much like diacetyl, is the average craft beer snob snubs it because that's what they've been trained to do.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: stpug on April 20, 2017, 10:19:32 PM
I feel that it's a stigma, much like diacetyl. It's OK if someone doesn't like corn flavor, but I really wish more brewers would experiment with corn.

The issue with corn, much like diacetyl, is the average craft beer snob snubs it because that's what they've been trained to do.

4 out of 4 beers I have on tap right now have corn ranging from 9-33%.  The stigma is lost on me :D
I like corn in beer, corn on the cob, corn in mac&cheese, corn in taco meat, creamed corn, corny jokes.... well, you get the idea  ;D
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: HoosierBrew on April 20, 2017, 10:25:59 PM
I feel that it's a stigma, much like diacetyl. It's OK if someone doesn't like corn flavor, but I really wish more brewers would experiment with corn.

The issue with corn, much like diacetyl, is the average craft beer snob snubs it because that's what they've been trained to do.

4 out of 4 beers I have on tap right now have corn ranging from 9-33%.  The stigma is lost on me :D
I like corn in beer, corn on the cob, corn in mac&cheese, corn in taco meat, creamed corn, corny jokes.... well, you get the idea  ;D


Yeah, corn gets a bad rap. I like it in a few beers. Even used it in a IIPA a few times. I think back in the day when the craft beer boom was starting, craft beers were marketed as 'all malt' beers, to differentiate themselves from the high rice % BMC adjunct beers. Except corn can be a nice adjunct IMO.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 21, 2017, 03:35:00 AM
It's like a red cream ale.  Personally reminds me of an English bitter as well, with not so much caramel though.

FWIW, many British brewers used corn in their beers back before WWI. It's only after that point that invert sugar became the primary adjunct.

Take that, corn adjuncts =/= craft believers. I wish corn would lose the stigma, it's fantastic if used properly.
This is true!
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: riceral on April 21, 2017, 06:28:55 PM

Yeast - undecided.
Of the standard ale strains I have on hand to build up are:
001/051/080/US05/1098/1450

I'm thinking of a Ky Common and using WLP810 SF Lager yeast.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: gman23 on April 21, 2017, 06:40:58 PM

Yeast - undecided.
Of the standard ale strains I have on hand to build up are:
001/051/080/US05/1098/1450

I'm thinking of a Ky Common and using WLP810 SF Lager yeast.

Any thoughts?

I was thinking the same thing!
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 21, 2017, 07:23:06 PM
It's like chili, everyone can do it their own way.

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: coolman26 on April 22, 2017, 01:11:19 PM
Apocalypse, Falls City, Akasha, and Against the Grain all make a Ky Common in Louisville. Against the Grain uses a sour mash. I'm guessing that Common wasn't a sour mash. Oertel's 92 was a main beer around Lou. I remember giving my mom a taste of New Castle. She said,"that tastes just like Oertel's 92."  I think Common was like that. Session strength at 4%-4.5%. I think the black malt was added only for ph adjustment, could be wrong. I've researched it and tried all of them. I've not brewed one yet. I think 1450 might add a nice body to a Common. I think, for me, the mouth feel is what is lacking in all of these that I've tried. Possibly 1450 could add what is missing.


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 22, 2017, 02:22:55 PM
Apocalypse, Falls City, Akasha, and Against the Grain all make a Ky Common in Louisville. Against the Grain uses a sour mash. I'm guessing that Common wasn't a sour mash. Oertel's 92 was a main beer around Lou. I remember giving my mom a taste of New Castle. She said,"that tastes just like Oertel's 92."  I think Common was like that. Session strength at 4%-4.5%. I think the black malt was added only for ph adjustment, could be wrong. I've researched it and tried all of them. I've not brewed one yet. I think 1450 might add a nice body to a Common. I think, for me, the mouth feel is what is lacking in all of these that I've tried. Possibly 1450 could add what is missing.


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From my understanding most barrels back then went sour from slow turn around and a wide variety of barrels used, but were not intended to be sour.  Sour mashing IIRC in a Kentucky common, and have read to be a myth.  I am not that well versed in sours or sour mashing, but I would fear the low pH would become problematic with the heavy pitch and the quick turn around on this brew.  I don't know how the beer would benefit from a sour mash from a flavor aspect, because again that is something I am still getting my feet wet with.  So take this reply as just brew talk, well French pressed brew talk... 

Would it turn out like an oud bruin at that point?  Would the high amount of corn lead to an even thinner product with the sour mash breaking down a dextrinous into fermentable sugars?
Title: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: coolman26 on April 22, 2017, 04:27:59 PM
The Against the Grain one with the sour mash, was unique. I'm not huge on sour beers. I don't mind them, but it didn't really fancy me in the Common. I'm sure the true Common beers were thin. Probably so they were easy drinking with the use of ale yeast.


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: chinaski on April 22, 2017, 07:12:20 PM
Stan Hieronymous' Brewing Local book has a fairly meaty section on KY Common.  A good book to pick up.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: Mardoo on April 23, 2017, 05:43:39 AM
I've been planning to use the White Labs bourbon yeast, which is said to add a touch of caramel.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 24, 2017, 12:15:49 AM
I've been planning to use the White Labs bourbon yeast, which is said to add a touch of caramel.
Interesting.  I would imagine the caramel flavors described come with higher alcohols, but if it could create that faux caramel flavor at session strength that would be a very interesting malty ale strain.

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: Mardoo on April 24, 2017, 12:30:13 AM
I've been planning to use the White Labs bourbon yeast, which is said to add a touch of caramel.
Interesting.  I would imagine the caramel flavors described come with higher alcohols, but if it could create that faux caramel flavor at session strength that would be a very interesting malty ale strain.

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Yeah, I haven't had a chance to try it yet. It occurred to me that perhaps brewers at the time just used the easily available local yeast. Adding guess to supposition, I thought that may have been yeast used on the sour mash to produce the wash for the bourbon. NFI whether it will work, but I look forward to the experiment.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: senseichaz on April 29, 2017, 12:51:55 PM
I have brewed around ten batches of KC. It's a great beer to brew for quick turn around. Brew Sunday, ferment all week, keg, carb and serve on Sunday. It does mellow nicely with age but when your buddy says, "How about you brew a beer for the wedding next week?" You can actually do it.

Also makes a great style to experiment with. I've added cherry extract with success. I brew mine a bit higher gravity, with an ABV around 7-7.5. Has always been a crowd pleaser.


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on April 30, 2017, 09:40:31 PM
I've been planning to use the White Labs bourbon yeast, which is said to add a touch of caramel.
Interesting.  I would imagine the caramel flavors described come with higher alcohols, but if it could create that faux caramel flavor at session strength that would be a very interesting malty ale strain.

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Yeah, I haven't had a chance to try it yet. It occurred to me that perhaps brewers at the time just used the easily available local yeast. Adding guess to supposition, I thought that may have been yeast used on the sour mash to produce the wash for the bourbon. NFI whether it will work, but I look forward to the experiment.
Report back when you do! I like to hear the results.

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on May 04, 2017, 01:21:04 PM
First run of recipe

1.050 OG
29.2IBUs
14.8SRM
4.8% ABV

60.2% 6-row
36.1% Flaked Corn
2.4% Carafa III
1.2% Crystal 30L

Hops
24.4IBUs Northern Brewer - 60m
4.8IBUs Perle - 10m

Okay, now I am considering the water profile...
Amber Balanced
70ppm Calcium
7ppm Magnesium
38ppm Sodium
90ppm Sulfate
81ppm Chloride
-93 Bicarbonate
1.10 SO4/Cl

Lactic Acid to drop to 5.2 is ~0.2707mL/L mash water
That works up to about 12.3mL and that is a lot more than I am used to.

Yeast - undecided.
Of the standard ale strains I have on hand to build up are:
001/051/080/US05/1098/1450
I'm thinking about modifying my hops and schedule.  I'm thinking

20 IBUs at 75m northern brewer 6.9%
8-10IBUs at 20m NB 6.9%
1oz Crystal at flame out

I was thinking an herbal/floral/mint thing going on.  LHBS owner suggested Crystal and I think it sounds good.  What's your take on it?

Because I am unfamiliar with both...

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on May 07, 2017, 03:26:49 PM
NHBD parking lot brew was an awesome time.  I got my numbers better than projected.  *edit BH 81.5% - 87.5% Mash efficiency.  Ended up with 9.25 Gallons of 1.052 wort on 16.6# of grain.  So that was great, I pitched this morning some 17.14ml Slurry/L of wort.

Pitching slurry harvested 4/20 .6L assuming ~88% viability in that slurry.  So is that 3.8M/mL/P?  I always have difficult calculating the rough estimate of the viability of slurry.  Does anyone have the formula for assuming viability?
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on June 03, 2017, 06:28:34 PM
Here it is boys and girls.  For anyone who gives a s***, my KY Common.  It is uniquely sweet, but it's refreshing.  The highest level of corn I have ever used or tasted.  There isn't a vegetable thing going on but a sweet aroma.  It's very mellow, light beer.  I am proud of the head retention and the carbonation is about perfect IMHO.  I wish I could attach a video of the pour because it's pretty.  No off flavors, very subtle hop character.  Just smooth bitterness from NB, which I have never used.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170603/dc35f2a02a0deae3ee516052481f94db.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170603/eea81ddbcee0abfe7ede3a2438c9ee8a.jpg)

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 03, 2017, 06:42:48 PM
Looks great!  Corn gets a bad rap - it has a place in some beers.
Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on June 03, 2017, 07:01:16 PM
Thanks Jon

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 04, 2017, 12:13:47 AM
Looks great!  Corn gets a bad rap - it has a place in some beers.
+1 yes!
Title: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: BrewBama on June 04, 2017, 12:57:52 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170603/dc35f2a02a0deae3ee516052481f94db.jpg)

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Good lookin beer


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: coolman26 on June 04, 2017, 02:05:20 AM
Send it to all of us. KYC is really light for the color. A style in and of its own. I like it, round here there are many versions. Guess it was the every day version of BMC in Louisville.


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on June 04, 2017, 01:36:24 PM
Send it to all of us. KYC is really light for the color. A style in and of its own. I like it, round here there are many versions. Guess it was the every day version of BMC in Louisville.


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I'd love too, but logistics on that one may be a little rough.  Plus I only have enough for 70 of all of us😉 anyone up for a bottle share?

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: senseichaz on November 05, 2017, 01:08:49 PM
First run of recipe

1.050 OG
29.2IBUs
14.8SRM
4.8% ABV

60.2% 6-row
36.1% Flaked Corn
2.4% Carafa III
1.2% Crystal 30L

Hops
24.4IBUs Northern Brewer - 60m
4.8IBUs Perle - 10m

Okay, now I am considering the water profile...
Amber Balanced
70ppm Calcium
7ppm Magnesium
38ppm Sodium
90ppm Sulfate
81ppm Chloride
-93 Bicarbonate
1.10 SO4/Cl

Lactic Acid to drop to 5.2 is ~0.2707mL/L mash water
That works up to about 12.3mL and that is a lot more than I am used to.

Yeast - undecided.
Of the standard ale strains I have on hand to build up are:
001/051/080/US05/1098/1450
I'm thinking about modifying my hops and schedule.  I'm thinking

20 IBUs at 75m northern brewer 6.9%
8-10IBUs at 20m NB 6.9%
1oz Crystal at flame out

I was thinking an herbal/floral/mint thing going on.  LHBS owner suggested Crystal and I think it sounds good.  What's your take on it?

Because I am unfamiliar with both...

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I use whatever I have on hand. Usually NB or any neutral US hops with a flameout addition for aroma. It’s a working class beer so I try to keep it simple. But, as I said earlier, it’s a great base beer to experiment with. Go for it.

Let us know how it turned out.


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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: JJeffers09 on November 05, 2017, 02:41:21 PM
The recipe turned out really well.  As the bottles aged, I got what I am calling Carbonic acid from being over carbonated, I went for above 3 vols and it had a distinctive sharpness that didn't age well, however the overall impression was clean and balanced malt flavors.  Which is amazing that corn at 36+% still had plenty of character, malt presence and slight hop aroma.  I will definitely brew this up again come spring(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171105/6bc513197e1a45f5a4c3f429d05001ec.jpg)

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Title: Re: Historic Kentucky Common
Post by: senseichaz on March 30, 2018, 02:47:50 PM
The recipe turned out really well.  As the bottles aged, I got what I am calling Carbonic acid from being over carbonated, I went for above 3 vols and it had a distinctive sharpness that didn't age well, however the overall impression was clean and balanced malt flavors.  Which is amazing that corn at 36+% still had plenty of character, malt presence and slight hop aroma.  I will definitely brew this up again come spring(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171105/6bc513197e1a45f5a4c3f429d05001ec.jpg)

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Glad to hear it worked out. I love this beer. I have yet to bottle any as I keg it all. Try an addition sometime. I have used black cherry extract with success.


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