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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: Hella Hazy on May 15, 2017, 12:54:26 AM

Title: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Hella Hazy on May 15, 2017, 12:54:26 AM
Hi all,

I'm working on a concept beer - a 'black witbier.' The basic idea is to be a witbier but black in color (which I realize is an oxymoron), with minimal roast of course and with a heavy charge of anise to give it a strong black licorice impression in addition to coriander/orange peel. I've heard people say tangerines work particularly well for witbiers so my recipe in the making thus far is as follows:

40% pils
33% flaked wheat
10% midnight wheat (550 SRM)
8% flaked oats
8% Munich II
Mash @ 153F
21 IBUs hallertau @ 60min
0.5oz of Indian coriander, zest of 6 tangerines, and 1oz star anise (crushed) at T-5 minutes before end of boil.
Ferment with WLP410 Belgian Wit II at 68F

Note I am a man who LOVES black licorice so if 1oz of star anise sounds like way too much to you... I might be in the right ballpark for my tastes ;)

Any thoughts? Thanks!
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: JJeffers09 on May 15, 2017, 01:19:34 AM
Coriander, orange, and star anise sounds like 1 to many spices.  Just my 2 cents

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Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 15, 2017, 01:48:19 AM
I like the idea. 10% midnight wheat is way too much in my opinion. Not sure how the color works out but I would try to stay within 5%. I would shoot for 24 srm and call it good. You could always supplement with sinamar as well.

Not sure if there is any info on it but Stone did a black wit that I had on a few ocassions and enjoyed.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: dmtaylor on May 15, 2017, 12:02:57 PM
I love the concept.  Try Unibroue Trois Pistoles for something kind of similar.  Very good beer.

That is way too much tangerine and star anise though.  Cut back to just 1 or 2 tangerines, and 1 teaspoon of star anise.  Spicing is more about subtlety.  I think a teaspoon of star anise will still be in your face enough.  Could go maybe 1.5 teaspoons.

Also I fear too much midnight wheat, if that is possible.  I'd cut that back but not by so much that you would only have a brown beer.  Cutting back to 7% should still be black enough, especially if you offset by increasing the Munich to like 15-20% and cut back the pilsner to make up for the extra Munich.

That should do the trick.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: coolman26 on May 15, 2017, 01:30:34 PM
I love the concept.  Try Unibroue Trois Pistoles for something kind of similar.  Very good beer.

That is way too much tangerine and star anise though.  Cut back to just 1 or 2 tangerines, and 1 teaspoon of star anise.  Spicing is more about subtlety.  I think a teaspoon of star anise will still be in your face enough.  Could go maybe 1.5 teaspoons.

Also I fear too much midnight wheat, if that is possible.  I'd cut that back but not by so much that you would only have a brown beer.  Cutting back to 7% should still be black enough, especially if you offset by increasing the Munich to like 15-20% and cut back the pilsner to make up for the extra Munich.

That should do the trick.  Enjoy!
I agree with this. You could always cut the Midnight wheat and back it up with some Sinamar. You could get the color w/o making it too roasty. I do like the idea. I would start low with the spices and go up. Maybe try making a tea and tasting first. You may then be able to scale up.


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Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Hella Hazy on May 15, 2017, 08:21:26 PM
Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'll definitely cut back on the midnight wheat and tangerines, and ... consider starting the star anise lower.

I only hesitate on the anise because I find that what most people consider way too much licorice is just at the low end of the threshold for me, since I love the flavor and can't get enough of it.

Last time I used anise it was at an attempt to make a Pennsylvania swankey... and I used about 4.5g which I guess is about 0.15 oz. Couldn't taste it at all. I want to at least triple it... maybe 0.5oz is a good next point to try.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: dmtaylor on May 15, 2017, 09:19:01 PM
Now you're talking.  :)
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Steve Ruch on May 15, 2017, 10:12:08 PM
The current issue of BYO has an article about brewing dark versions of pale color beers.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: dbeechum on May 18, 2017, 05:26:09 PM
Tbe Bruery in Placentia made a black wit for years - Black Orchard - They gave me a recipe a few years back for Zymurgy. https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/the-bruerys-black-orchard-wit/
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: reverseapachemaster on May 19, 2017, 02:33:36 PM
Last time I used anise it was at an attempt to make a Pennsylvania swankey... and I used about 4.5g which I guess is about 0.15 oz. Couldn't taste it at all. I want to at least triple it... maybe 0.5oz is a good next point to try.

Did you use star anise or anise seed for the swankey? Swankey was made with anise seed.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: lowell.blikre on May 20, 2017, 12:35:10 PM
A small % of Dinglemann debittered black malt would help you hit your color mark.

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Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Hella Hazy on May 20, 2017, 09:59:31 PM
Last time I used anise it was at an attempt to make a Pennsylvania swankey... and I used about 4.5g which I guess is about 0.15 oz. Couldn't taste it at all. I want to at least triple it... maybe 0.5oz is a good next point to try.

Did you use star anise or anise seed for the swankey? Swankey was made with anise seed.

Actually looking back on my notes in more detail I used both - 3.0g of anise seed and 1.5g of star anise.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: santoch on May 23, 2017, 04:05:14 AM
I love this idea.  Please tell us how it turns out.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: skyler on May 30, 2017, 04:25:58 AM
I also like the idea, I would drop the munich and add the lion's share of the dark malt at sparge (and sparge a little cooler than usual <160F) like with a black IPA. I would also drop it to ~2 tangerines and maybe 3 star anise stars. You could also add brewers' licorice, if you wanted. FWIW, I like my witbiers around 1.048 and with ~15 IBUs.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Hella Hazy on May 30, 2017, 05:54:26 PM
I also like the idea, I would drop the munich and add the lion's share of the dark malt at sparge (and sparge a little cooler than usual <160F) like with a black IPA. I would also drop it to ~2 tangerines and maybe 3 star anise stars. You could also add brewers' licorice, if you wanted. FWIW, I like my witbiers around 1.048 and with ~15 IBUs.
Yeah def going to drop the # of tangerines. I was only thinking of adding Munich since it's a darker beer and may give that impression of cola that I sometimes get from Munich malt... thought it would compliment the licorice.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: skyler on May 30, 2017, 06:35:58 PM
Yeah def going to drop the # of tangerines. I was only thinking of adding Munich since it's a darker beer and may give that impression of cola that I sometimes get from Munich malt... thought it would compliment the licorice.

I understand that sensibility, but I suspect that any darker malts will detract from the "witbier" quality. If you're making more of a witbier/porter hybrid, then so be it.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: erockrph on June 01, 2017, 03:36:54 PM
I like the concept, but I think you might be trying to shoehorn too much into one beer, and will have a hard time hitting the balance point you're looking for.

Instead of a witbier yeast, have you considered using a neutral ale yeast and trying this as a spiced brown ale? That might give you closer to the flavors you're looking for, even though the initial "Aha!" moment was for a black witbier.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 04:04:11 PM
Gotta ask just to bust chops - where's all the grief us Black IPA brewers had to take? Both are misnomers, both black mostly for apearance.   ;D.  <sound of pot stirring>
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: denny on June 01, 2017, 04:56:08 PM
Gotta ask just to bust chops - where's all the grief us Black IPA brewers had to take? Both are misnomers, both black mostly for apearance.   ;D.  <sound of pot stirring>

Trying my best to hold my comments.  Don't want another Black IPA conflagration!
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 05:09:28 PM
Gotta ask just to bust chops - where's all the grief us Black IPA brewers had to take? Both are misnomers, both black mostly for apearance.   ;D.  <sound of pot stirring>

Trying my best to hold my comments.  Don't want another Black IPA conflagration!


Don't have to with me, Denny ;D  I was just stirring the pot anyway!
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: brewinhard on June 01, 2017, 06:23:34 PM
Gotta ask just to bust chops - where's all the grief us Black IPA brewers had to take? Both are misnomers, both black mostly for apearance.   ;D.  <sound of pot stirring>

Trying my best to hold my comments.  Don't want another Black IPA conflagration!


Don't have to with me, Denny ;D  I was just stirring the pot anyway!

Watch it Jon!  You might get your mod options revoked...  :o ;D
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 06:33:30 PM
Gotta ask just to bust chops - where's all the grief us Black IPA brewers had to take? Both are misnomers, both black mostly for apearance.   ;D.  <sound of pot stirring>

Trying my best to hold my comments.  Don't want another Black IPA conflagration!


Don't have to with me, Denny ;D  I was just stirring the pot anyway!

Watch it Jon!  You might get your mod options revoked...  :o ;D



;D.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: dmtaylor on June 01, 2017, 08:12:06 PM
But this is nothing like "black IPA", which neither has anything to do with India, nor is it pale.  I see a black witbier as something more like a Trois Pistoles clone, and that beer has been around far longer than any "black IPA".... unless you consider the fact that "black IPA" is really either just

A) an IPA with black food color,

B) an American stout, or

C) a really robust robust porter.

;)
Title: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Big Monk on June 01, 2017, 09:44:10 PM
But this is nothing like "black IPA", which neither has anything to do with India, nor is it pale.  I see a black witbier as something more like a Trois Pistoles clone, and that beer has been around far longer than any "black IPA".... unless you consider the fact that "black IPA" is really either just

A) an IPA with black food color,

B) an American stout, or

C) a really robust robust porter.

;)

Except that Trois Pistoles is a BDSA!
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 10:07:48 PM
But this is nothing like "black IPA", which neither has anything to do with India, nor is it pale.  I see a black witbier as something more like a Trois Pistoles clone, and that beer has been around far longer than any "black IPA".... unless you consider the fact that "black IPA" is really either just

A) an IPA with black food color,

B) an American stout, or

C) a really robust robust porter.

;)



Dave, by your logic, a witbier ( often called a Belgian White ale) sounds kinda silly as a "Belgian Black White ale". So of course it's a misnomer, and is also dyed black for the sake of color.

Secondly, I've heard the American Stout argument ad nauseum. As someone who brews American Stout every year, there are few similarities other than color. American Stout is assertively roasty and (per guidelines) in aroma and flavor, and may have medium to very low late hop aroma. Black IPA has slight to no roast character and high hop flavor and high hop aroma. Not just semantics IMO. Not many people who try Wookey jack would confuse it with American Stout.

Lastly, I brewed maybe 4 or 5 black IPAs total, and posted today with tongue FIRMLY in cheek. :)  People should brew whatever sounds good to them, not us anyway.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: dmtaylor on June 01, 2017, 10:09:17 PM
Except that Trois Pistoles is a BDSA!

Pataytah, patahtah...

I thought the Belgians didn't care about categories anyways.  'Course, most of us are not Belgian, either.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 10:09:33 PM
Except that Trois Pistoles is a BDSA!


There is that.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: dmtaylor on June 01, 2017, 10:11:47 PM
Dave, by your logic, a witbier ( often called a Belgian White ale) sounds kinda silly as a "Belgian Black White ale". So of course it's a misnomer, and is also dyed black for the sake of color.

Secondly, I've heard the American Stout argument ad nauseum. As someone who brews American Stout every year, there are few similarities other than color. American Stout is assertively roasty and (per guidelines) in aroma and flavor, and may have medium to very low late hop aroma. Black IPA has slight to no roast character and high hop flavor and high hop aroma. Not just semantics IMO. Not many people who try Wookey jack would confuse it with American Stout.

Lastly, I brewed maybe 4 or 5 black IPAs total, and posted today with tongue FIRMLY in cheek. :)  People should brew whatever sounds good to them, not us anyway.

I, too, have tongue firmly planted in cheek.  You're right... what the hell is a black white beer anyway?

Don't mind me... I'm still just butthurt over the lack of a Purple IPA category in the 2015 Guidelines.  ;)
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 10:12:48 PM
Dave, by your logic, a witbier ( often called a Belgian White ale) sounds kinda silly as a "Belgian Black White ale". So of course it's a misnomer, and is also dyed black for the sake of color.

Secondly, I've heard the American Stout argument ad nauseum. As someone who brews American Stout every year, there are few similarities other than color. American Stout is assertively roasty and (per guidelines) in aroma and flavor, and may have medium to very low late hop aroma. Black IPA has slight to no roast character and high hop flavor and high hop aroma. Not just semantics IMO. Not many people who try Wookey jack would confuse it with American Stout.

Lastly, I brewed maybe 4 or 5 black IPAs total, and posted today with tongue FIRMLY in cheek. :)  People should brew whatever sounds good to them, not us anyway.

I, too, have tongue firmly planted in cheek.  You're right... what the hell is a black white beer anyway?

Don't mind me... I'm still just butthurt over the lack of a Purple IPA category in the 2015 Guidelines.  ;)



Agreed.  ;D
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: denny on June 01, 2017, 10:13:35 PM
Dave, by your logic, a witbier ( often called a Belgian White ale) sounds kinda silly as a "Belgian Black White ale". So of course it's a misnomer, and is also dyed black for the sake of color.

Secondly, I've heard the American Stout argument ad nauseum. As someone who brews American Stout every year, there are few similarities other than color. American Stout is assertively roasty and (per guidelines) in aroma and flavor, and may have medium to very low late hop aroma. Black IPA has slight to no roast character and high hop flavor and high hop aroma. Not just semantics IMO. Not many people who try Wookey jack would confuse it with American Stout.

Lastly, I brewed maybe 4 or 5 black IPAs total, and posted today with tongue FIRMLY in cheek. :)  People should brew whatever sounds good to them, not us anyway.

I, too, have tongue firmly planted in cheek.  You're right... what the hell is a black white beer anyway?

Don't mind me... I'm still just butthurt over the lack of a Purple IPA category in the 2015 Guidelines.  ;)



Agreed.  ;D

Just wait til next year when they add Rainbow IPA!
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 10:16:40 PM
Dave, by your logic, a witbier ( often called a Belgian White ale) sounds kinda silly as a "Belgian Black White ale". So of course it's a misnomer, and is also dyed black for the sake of color.

Secondly, I've heard the American Stout argument ad nauseum. As someone who brews American Stout every year, there are few similarities other than color. American Stout is assertively roasty and (per guidelines) in aroma and flavor, and may have medium to very low late hop aroma. Black IPA has slight to no roast character and high hop flavor and high hop aroma. Not just semantics IMO. Not many people who try Wookey jack would confuse it with American Stout.

Lastly, I brewed maybe 4 or 5 black IPAs total, and posted today with tongue FIRMLY in cheek. :)  People should brew whatever sounds good to them, not us anyway.

I, too, have tongue firmly planted in cheek.  You're right... what the hell is a black white beer anyway?

Don't mind me... I'm still just butthurt over the lack of a Purple IPA category in the 2015 Guidelines.  ;)



Agreed.  ;D

Just wait til next year when they add Rainbow IPA!



Kind of opens another can of worms altogether.  ;D   I'm the first to admit that IPA has 'jumped the shark'. I brew maybe a couple per year and they're more or less Blind Pig style.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Big Monk on June 01, 2017, 10:20:31 PM
Except that Trois Pistoles is a BDSA!

Pataytah, patahtah...

I thought the Belgians didn't care about categories anyways.  'Course, most of us are not Belgian, either.

The Belgians might not care but you'd have to ask the Canadians how they felt!
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: denny on June 01, 2017, 11:07:15 PM
Dave, by your logic, a witbier ( often called a Belgian White ale) sounds kinda silly as a "Belgian Black White ale". So of course it's a misnomer, and is also dyed black for the sake of color.

Secondly, I've heard the American Stout argument ad nauseum. As someone who brews American Stout every year, there are few similarities other than color. American Stout is assertively roasty and (per guidelines) in aroma and flavor, and may have medium to very low late hop aroma. Black IPA has slight to no roast character and high hop flavor and high hop aroma. Not just semantics IMO. Not many people who try Wookey jack would confuse it with American Stout.

Lastly, I brewed maybe 4 or 5 black IPAs total, and posted today with tongue FIRMLY in cheek. :)  People should brew whatever sounds good to them, not us anyway.

I, too, have tongue firmly planted in cheek.  You're right... what the hell is a black white beer anyway?

Don't mind me... I'm still just butthurt over the lack of a Purple IPA category in the 2015 Guidelines.  ;)



Agreed.  ;D

Just wait til next year when they add Rainbow IPA!



Kind of opens another can of worms altogether.  ;D   I'm the first to admit that IPA has 'jumped the shark'. I brew maybe a couple per year and they're more or less Blind Pig style.

I think at least 75% of the beers I brew for myself are IPA.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 11:32:49 PM
I think at least 75% of the beers I brew for myself are IPA.


I still love 'em. Just been brewing hoppy APAs more the last couple years.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Hella Hazy on June 02, 2017, 01:18:54 AM
haha wow looks like I opened up a can of worms on this one.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 02, 2017, 01:22:26 AM
haha wow looks like I opened up a can of worms on this one.


Not at all, just a little faux snark. Enjoy!   ;D
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: denny on June 02, 2017, 02:33:14 PM
I think at least 75% of the beers I brew for myself are IPA.


I still love 'em. Just been brewing hoppy APAs more the last couple years.

I'm on a 4 oz. per day limit so the extra alcohol isn't a problem.  When I was drinking more I,d brew hoppy APA like you.
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: Steve Ruch on June 02, 2017, 05:32:34 PM
I'm on a 4 oz. per day limit so the extra alcohol isn't a problem.  When I was drinking more I,d brew hoppy APA like you.

I'd be more than happy to help you with the excess beer you have.  ;D
Title: Re: 'Black witbier'
Post by: ford on June 29, 2017, 02:31:04 AM
No Label Brewing in Katy, Texas brews a beer they call Black-Wit-O.

I hate black licorice so I picked up on the taste of star anise in their beer pretty easily. Of course that made me not want to drink it anymore, ha. Just not a fan of that flavor.

Cheers!