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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 25, 2017, 08:40:50 PM

Title: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 25, 2017, 08:40:50 PM
I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around diastatic power.  This all started when I was continuously unhappy with the quality of my beers containing Munich malt.  They all have a similar sweet, almost caramel like flavor that tastes nothing like the commercial Munich containing beers that I love.

I know that it’s on the low scale for diastatic power and I don’t know I am certain I understand exactly what that means.  All I know is that based on what I am reading it might be linked to this flavor I am getting.  Am I not getting a good conversion and ending up with less fermentable sugar?   

I would love to know how to fix it.   
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: denny on May 25, 2017, 09:18:21 PM
Your malt analysis should have a rating for DP, often expressed in degrees L.  IIRC, as long as it's above 25 the malt should convert itself.  Frankly, though, I don't know if that's your problem.  I've never had any problems getting a variety of Munich malts, both continental and domestic, to convert.  One way to find out oif that's the issue of to use Kai's conversion efficiency chart.  It shows a theoretical maximum gravity for various mash ratios.  Using your ratio, you compare the graivity of your mash runoff to the chart.  You can find it and explanations here....http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency .  That will either confirm what you're thinking or show you that you need to look elsewhere.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: Wilbur on May 25, 2017, 09:22:28 PM
I always like this post on the Beer Smith Blog:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/ (http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/)
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: dmtaylor on May 25, 2017, 09:40:11 PM
Could be diastatic power, or could be something else entirely.  Tell me...... are you adding any crystal malts to these beers at all?  What temperatures are you mashing at, and for how long?  Do you use Briess malt by any chance, or what brand do you use?  What yeast are you using?  WLP820 by any chance?

:)
Title: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: The Beerery on May 25, 2017, 10:17:21 PM
Caramel flavor is signature oxidation.  Munich is doughy, soft pretzel or outside of a soft pretzel.


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Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: narvin on May 25, 2017, 10:39:01 PM
Caramel flavor is signature oxidation.  Munich is doughy, soft pretzel or outside of a soft pretzel.


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It could be this. It could be under-attenuation of converted sugars due to yeast health.  It could be something else.  But I'd guess that it has nothing to do with DP.  Unconverted starches are not going to be caramel sweet.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: The Beerery on May 25, 2017, 10:41:29 PM
Personally I find under attenuation to be flabby, non crisp, and sometimes smarties like.  Never caramelly.
And I agree with that.


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Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: narvin on May 25, 2017, 10:44:44 PM
The only reason I don't want to jump straight to oxidation is that I feel like a bit of oxidation hasn't negatively affected my dark beers, especially ones based on Munich malt.

It could be a combination of recipe (too much crystal) and oxidation.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: dmtaylor on May 26, 2017, 12:09:59 AM
It could be a helluva lotta stuff.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 26, 2017, 03:48:57 PM
Your malt analysis should have a rating for DP, often expressed in degrees L.  IIRC, as long as it's above 25 the malt should convert itself.  Frankly, though, I don't know if that's your problem.  I've never had any problems getting a variety of Munich malts, both continental and domestic, to convert.  One way to find out oif that's the issue of to use Kai's conversion efficiency chart.  It shows a theoretical maximum gravity for various mash ratios.  Using your ratio, you compare the graivity of your mash runoff to the chart.  You can find it and explanations here....http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency .  That will either confirm what you're thinking or show you that you need to look elsewhere.

Would this be the same mash efficiency beer smith calculates?  If it is, efficiently doesn't appear to be the problem. 

The Munich's in this recipe are 150L so I guess that's not the problem either.   
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 26, 2017, 03:52:03 PM
Could be diastatic power, or could be something else entirely.  Tell me...... are you adding any crystal malts to these beers at all?  What temperatures are you mashing at, and for how long?  Do you use Briess malt by any chance, or what brand do you use?  What yeast are you using?  WLP820 by any chance?

:)

This recipe is on 7.1% Crystal 60.  Mash was 152 for 60 minutes.  I use BestMalz Munich and Saf lager.   
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 26, 2017, 03:52:48 PM
I really don't think it's an oxidation issue.  I have never had issues with oxidation and this flavor shows up across all my beers containing Munich...ales and lagers. 
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: denny on May 26, 2017, 05:47:05 PM
Your malt analysis should have a rating for DP, often expressed in degrees L.  IIRC, as long as it's above 25 the malt should convert itself.  Frankly, though, I don't know if that's your problem.  I've never had any problems getting a variety of Munich malts, both continental and domestic, to convert.  One way to find out oif that's the issue of to use Kai's conversion efficiency chart.  It shows a theoretical maximum gravity for various mash ratios.  Using your ratio, you compare the graivity of your mash runoff to the chart.  You can find it and explanations here....http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency .  That will either confirm what you're thinking or show you that you need to look elsewhere.

Would this be the same mash efficiency beer smith calculates?  If it is, efficiently doesn't appear to be the problem. 

The Munich's in this recipe are 150L so I guess that's not the problem either.

No, it's conversion efficiency, not mash efficiency.  But if your mash efficiency is good, conversion isn't your problem.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: denny on May 26, 2017, 05:49:00 PM
I really don't think it's an oxidation issue.  I have never had issues with oxidation and this flavor shows up across all my beers containing Munich...ales and lagers.

Who makes the Munich?  What color is it?
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 26, 2017, 05:50:22 PM
I really don't think it's an oxidation issue.  I have never had issues with oxidation and this flavor shows up across all my beers containing Munich...ales and lagers.

Who makes the Munich?  What color is it?

Most often Best Malz, Dark and regular Munich. 
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: denny on May 26, 2017, 06:12:25 PM
I really don't think it's an oxidation issue.  I have never had issues with oxidation and this flavor shows up across all my beers containing Munich...ales and lagers.

Who makes the Munich?  What color is it?

Most often Best Malz, Dark and regular Munich.

OK, that's what I usually use, too.  I can't say that I've had issues with either conversion or flavor with it.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 26, 2017, 06:15:06 PM
Could you provide an example recipe that you are experiencing this problem with?
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 26, 2017, 07:30:11 PM
Could you provide an example recipe that you are experiencing this problem with?

Recipe: Vienna
Brewer: Andrew
Asst Brewer:
Style: Vienna Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.71 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.46 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.50 gal   
Bottling Volume: 10.10 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 9.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.4 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt               Name                              Type        #       %/IBU       
12 lbs 8.0 oz     Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain       1       59.5 %     
4 lbs 8.0 oz      Pilsen Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.0 S Grain       2       21.4 %     
2 lbs 8.0 oz      Munich Dark (BestMälz) (12.7 SRM) Grain       3       11.9 %     
1 lbs 8.0 oz      Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0  Grain       4       7.1 %       
2.00 oz           Hallertau [4.30 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop         5       19.3 IBUs   
2.00 oz           Tettnang, U.S. [6.40 %] - Boil 10 Hop         6       5.7 IBUs   
1.0 pkg           Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W- Yeast       7       -           


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 21 lbs
----------------------------
Name                  Description                           Step Temperature      Step Time   
Mash In               Add 6.96 gal of water at 163.0 F      152.0 F               60 min     

Sparge: Fly sparge with 9.67 gal water at 170.0 F
Notes:
------
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ynotbrusum on May 26, 2017, 07:47:21 PM
Is that only 1 packet of dry yeast for this 10 gallon batch?
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 26, 2017, 07:57:30 PM
Is that only 1 packet of dry yeast for this 10 gallon batch?

No.  Should have said this before.  This was a split  batch with a buddy.  One packet of dry yeast for 5 gallons.  I did a starter as well. 
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 26, 2017, 08:01:17 PM
and what was the FG?

That's a large amount of crystal malt for a lager in my opinion. I personally rarely put crystal malt in a lager unless it is a very small amount. It could be the combination of the munich flavor and the crystal malt that you don't like. Maybe switch it up to light munich and less or no crystal to see how you like that?

Just a thought. Not meaning to derail.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 26, 2017, 08:06:39 PM
and what was the FG?

That's a large amount of crystal malt for a lager in my opinion. I personally rarely put crystal malt in a lager unless it is a very small amount. It could be the combination of the munich flavor and the crystal malt that you don't like. Maybe switch it up to light munich and less or no crystal to see how you like that?

Just a thought. Not meaning to derail.

FG was 1.010.  And 7% too much?

I get this flavor in all my Munich beers.  It's not isolated to just this one. 
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 26, 2017, 08:08:26 PM
and what was the FG?

That's a large amount of crystal malt for a lager in my opinion. I personally rarely put crystal malt in a lager unless it is a very small amount. It could be the combination of the munich flavor and the crystal malt that you don't like. Maybe switch it up to light munich and less or no crystal to see how you like that?

Just a thought. Not meaning to derail.

FG was 1.010.  And 7% too much?

I get this flavor in all my Munich beers.  It's not isolated to just this one.

Again that's just my opinion. At least FG is not the issue.

Do your other munich beers contain crystal? Have you ever brewed a 100% munich beer?
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: denny on May 26, 2017, 08:29:17 PM
and what was the FG?

That's a large amount of crystal malt for a lager in my opinion. I personally rarely put crystal malt in a lager unless it is a very small amount. It could be the combination of the munich flavor and the crystal malt that you don't like. Maybe switch it up to light munich and less or no crystal to see how you like that?

Just a thought. Not meaning to derail.

Maybe, maybe not.  And either way, it's not enough to have a drastic affect on fermentability.  I use more than that for IPA and APA and it doesn't affect attenuation much if at all.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: denny on May 26, 2017, 08:29:43 PM
and what was the FG?

That's a large amount of crystal malt for a lager in my opinion. I personally rarely put crystal malt in a lager unless it is a very small amount. It could be the combination of the munich flavor and the crystal malt that you don't like. Maybe switch it up to light munich and less or no crystal to see how you like that?

Just a thought. Not meaning to derail.

FG was 1.010.  And 7% too much?

I get this flavor in all my Munich beers.  It's not isolated to just this one.

Not IMO
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: denny on May 26, 2017, 08:30:20 PM
and what was the FG?

That's a large amount of crystal malt for a lager in my opinion. I personally rarely put crystal malt in a lager unless it is a very small amount. It could be the combination of the munich flavor and the crystal malt that you don't like. Maybe switch it up to light munich and less or no crystal to see how you like that?

Just a thought. Not meaning to derail.

FG was 1.010.  And 7% too much?

I get this flavor in all my Munich beers.  It's not isolated to just this one.

Again that's just my opinion. At least FG is not the issue.

Do your other munich beers contain crystal? Have you ever brewed a 100% munich beer?

Excellent question.
Title: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: The Beerery on May 26, 2017, 08:49:42 PM
Let me ask you this.  What beers that have Munich commercially do you love?


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Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 26, 2017, 09:15:04 PM
and what was the FG?

That's a large amount of crystal malt for a lager in my opinion. I personally rarely put crystal malt in a lager unless it is a very small amount. It could be the combination of the munich flavor and the crystal malt that you don't like. Maybe switch it up to light munich and less or no crystal to see how you like that?

Just a thought. Not meaning to derail.

Maybe, maybe not.  And either way, it's not enough to have a drastic affect on fermentability.  I use more than that for IPA and APA and it doesn't affect attenuation much if at all.

I was referring to flavor more than fermentability as I wouldn't be worried about that at 7%. Luckily I don't know what I'm talking about. I will go silent.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: denny on May 26, 2017, 09:24:26 PM

I was referring to flavor more than fermentability as I wouldn't be worried about that at 7%. Luckily I don't know what I'm talking about. I will go silent.

Don't do that!  But it's no more unusual to have crystal in certain lagers than it is in ales.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on May 26, 2017, 09:31:14 PM

I was referring to flavor more than fermentability as I wouldn't be worried about that at 7%. Luckily I don't know what I'm talking about. I will go silent.

Don't do that!  But it's no more unusual to have crystal in certain lagers than it is in ales.

Sorry! A little defensive after a thread blew up on me earlier. Derail over. Carry on...
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: Stevie on May 26, 2017, 10:13:03 PM
Let me ask you this.  What beers that have Munich commercially do you love?


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I'm curious too. Maybe you just don't like large amounts of Munich. Diff'rent strokes and such.
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: BrewBama on May 27, 2017, 12:04:36 AM
The Magic of Munich Malt. https://www.morebeer.com/articles/using_munich_malt


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Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: BrewBama on May 27, 2017, 12:21:07 AM


Sorry! A little defensive after a thread blew up on me earlier. Derail over. Carry on...

It can get a little spirited in here on occasion.  Don't let it bother you.  There are some pretty good folks in here.  Others only have a hammer so everything is a nail.


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Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: ANDREW.GROGAN1 on May 29, 2017, 03:35:18 PM
Let me ask you this.  What beers that have Munich commercially do you love?


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I'm curious too. Maybe you just don't like large amounts of Munich. Diff'rent strokes and such.

I love a lot of different Marzen's. 
Title: Re: Understanding Diastatic power
Post by: The Beerery on May 29, 2017, 03:40:00 PM
Let me ask you this.  What beers that have Munich commercially do you love?


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I'm curious too. Maybe you just don't like large amounts of Munich. Diff'rent strokes and such.

I love a lot of different Marzen's.
Like traditional German marzen? Like ayinger, spaten, HB?


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