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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Lazy Ant Brewing on May 31, 2017, 01:44:39 PM

Title: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Lazy Ant Brewing on May 31, 2017, 01:44:39 PM
Brewed the recipe below and there is a bit of residual sweetness I'd like to eliminate.

Breiss 2-Row 8.3 lbs
 roasted barley .40 lbs
Munich malt .88 lbs
C 60 .40 lbs
brown malt .75 lbs
chocolate malt .40 lbs
DME 1 lb

BIAB with mash at 153 F  for 60 mins.

Boiled 60 mins with following hops schedule:  0.5 oz magnum, 60 mins; 0.5 oz fuggles, 15 mins; and 0.5 oz. fuggles at flameout.

Chilled to 62 F and added ll grams US05. Ramped temp slowly to 66 F and fermented for 18 days. Obtained identical FG readings two days apart.  Cold crashed and bottled two days later.

Beer tastes very good except for a bit of residual sweetness I could live without.

How to git rid of that sweetness?

Do I need more hops?  Do I need to mash at a higher temp? 

Suggestions please and thanks in advance for your help.



Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 31, 2017, 02:25:30 PM
What was your FG?  Beers like this with a fairly high amount of specialty malts tend to finish a little higher. Not sure what brand of DME you used, but extracts in general aren't as fermentable. Subbing out the DME in favor of more 2 row would be a good start. Upping your IBU a tad mext time would help, too, as would mashing a couple degrees cooler.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Lazy Ant Brewing on May 31, 2017, 02:34:04 PM
FG was 1.08.  I used the DME (Munton's I think although the packaging is gone) because I didn't have enough 2-row on hand to complete the recipe.

Thanks
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: JJeffers09 on May 31, 2017, 02:36:32 PM
Eliminate the c60 or drop to 20l

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Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: denny on May 31, 2017, 02:46:29 PM
There's not enough crystal malt there to account for much sweetness IMO.  The DME may be responsible.  If you were to brew it again I,d say leave put the DME and/or up te hops a bit.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 31, 2017, 02:47:26 PM
FG was 1.08.  I used the DME (Munton's I think although the packaging is gone) because I didn't have enough 2-row on hand to complete the recipe.

Thanks

Sure you don't mean 1.018 or 1.008? FWIW Munton's is the least fermentable extract IIRC. That stuff will definitely leave a little residual sweetness.

Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Lazy Ant Brewing on May 31, 2017, 03:33:18 PM
FG was 1.008.  Next time I'll leave the DME out.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Phil_M on May 31, 2017, 04:34:51 PM
FWIW, I recently brewed a beer with a pound of extra dark crystal...even though it finished at 1.002, it's still sweet up front.

I'd cut the muchich back to a half pound, and swap the c60 out for a half pound of dark or extra dark crystal.

The half pound of dark crystal will give you a somewhat equivalent amount of flavor as the pound of c60, but with less of the sweetness/body issues. Yes, it's not the exact same flavor as c60, but I doubt it would be noticeable.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: denny on May 31, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
FWIW, I recently brewed a beer with a pound of extra dark crystal...even though it finished at 1.002, it's still sweet up front.

I'd cut the muchich back to a half pound, and swap the c60 out for a half pound of dark or extra dark crystal.

The half pound of dark crystal will give you a somewhat equivalent amount of flavor as the pound of c60, but with less of the sweetness/body issues. Yes, it's not the exact same flavor as c60, but I doubt it would be noticeable.

I don't think I'd be so certain.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 31, 2017, 05:03:35 PM
Finally remembered where I saw the listing of extract fermentability - it's in DGB. Ray shows Munton's DME as 57% fermentable, where for comparison, Briess pils DME is said to be around 80%. That's the residual sweetness here IMO.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Phil_M on May 31, 2017, 05:05:49 PM
FWIW, I recently brewed a beer with a pound of extra dark crystal...even though it finished at 1.002, it's still sweet up front.

I'd cut the muchich back to a half pound, and swap the c60 out for a half pound of dark or extra dark crystal.

The half pound of dark crystal will give you a somewhat equivalent amount of flavor as the pound of c60, but with less of the sweetness/body issues. Yes, it's not the exact same flavor as c60, but I doubt it would be noticeable.

I don't think I'd be so certain.

In a triangle test? Probably not. From a beer one night to another the next? I think so.

How else did we end up on the tons of light crystal malt in a bitter bandwagon? From what British bitter recipes I've seen, a smaller amount of darker crystal is used more often than a larger amount of lighter crystal.

One caveat: I brew with invert. This may add some of the "missing" lighter caramel notes that aren't found in the darker crystal malts.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: jrdatta on May 31, 2017, 07:37:23 PM
FG was 1.008.  Next time I'll leave the DME out.

Thanks again.

If your FG was 1.008 I am not so sure about fermentation or even malt issues.  What was your water profile?
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Lazy Ant Brewing on June 01, 2017, 10:52:28 AM
Water profile was Malty Brown.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: jrdatta on June 01, 2017, 12:23:56 PM
Water profile was Malty Brown.

Before you change your recipe (or not, you do you) try going for the balanced brown or the dry brown and see if that gets rid of the perceived sweetness.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: mabrungard on June 01, 2017, 12:46:01 PM
This is DEFINITELY a case where the brewer should test if additional sulfate could be added to the finished beer to help dry the finish and improve the balance. Pour a glass of the beer and add a single pinch of gypsum to the beer and mix. While the dose won't be precise, it should add somewhere around 100 ppm sulfate and that should be notable in the beer's perception.

Sulfate does not make beer bitter, it makes them finish drier and that can help in diminishing a perception of excess residual sweetness in the beer.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 12:49:37 PM
Water profile was Malty Brown.

Before you change your recipe (or not, you do you) try going for the balanced brown or the dry brown and see if that gets rid of the perceived sweetness.


IME using a malty profile doesn't make a beer sweet, it accents maltiness. Two different things to me. I still say dropping the barely fermentable Munton's DME for more two row fixes the issue. Different approaches.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: jrdatta on June 01, 2017, 01:50:44 PM
Water profile was Malty Brown.

Before you change your recipe (or not, you do you) try going for the balanced brown or the dry brown and see if that gets rid of the perceived sweetness.


IME using a malty profile doesn't make a beer sweet, it accents maltiness. Two different things to me. I still say dropping the barely fermentable Munton's DME for more two row fixes the issue. Different approaches.

I would agree with you other than the fact that the OP said the FG was 1.008 so fermentability wasn't an issue.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Stevie on June 01, 2017, 01:57:52 PM
And maybe the OP is confusing maltiness for sweetness.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 01, 2017, 02:06:53 PM
Water profile was Malty Brown.

Before you change your recipe (or not, you do you) try going for the balanced brown or the dry brown and see if that gets rid of the perceived sweetness.


IME using a malty profile doesn't make a beer sweet, it accents maltiness. Two different things to me. I still say dropping the barely fermentable Munton's DME for more two row fixes the issue. Different approaches.

I would agree with you other than the fact that the OP said the FG was 1.008 so fermentability wasn't an issue.


Yeah, the FG in and of itself isn't an issue. I just remember brewing extract beers where I added sugar to get good attenuation, and many of those beers (with a low FG) seemed sweeter than AG beers. Regardless, no harm in playing with water chemistry.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: jrdatta on June 01, 2017, 02:33:11 PM


Yeah, the FG in and of itself isn't an issue. I just remember brewing extract beers where I added sugar to get good attenuation, and many of those beers (with a low FG) seemed sweeter than AG beers. Regardless, no harm in playing with water chemistry.

And there is some science-y type stuff that supports that some due to extract make-up (almost all of them have a carapils addition) and the fact that they have already been boiled once and by boiling them again for an hour your are getting more mallard reactions which can sometimes manifest as a sweetness.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: coolman26 on June 01, 2017, 07:18:34 PM
I think removing the dme from the recipe changes this.


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Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Lazy Ant Brewing on June 02, 2017, 09:41:50 AM
I'll definitely remove the DME the next time I brew this recipe and replace it with the 2-row.  The only reason I used the DME to begin with is that I didn't have enough base malt on hand and didn't want to drive 50 miles roundtrip to get more or order online and wait two days for delivery.

And, next time I brew, I'll try mashing at 150 F vs the 153 F I did this last time.

I will try Martin's suggestion and add a pinch of gypsum to what I have bottled.

Thanks for all the suggestions and advice.
Title: Re: Residual Sweetness
Post by: Lazy Ant Brewing on June 05, 2017, 05:46:09 PM
I followed Martin's suggestion and added a pinch of gypsum to the beer,  It did help!

Thanks