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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Big Monk on June 05, 2017, 12:36:56 PM

Title: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 05, 2017, 12:36:56 PM
My local shops are experiencing a period of flux with their yeast selection. I have not had issues getting fresh yeast in the past, but my secondary store has stopped carrying Wyeast altogether and my main store has not been stocking fresh smack packs.

I have used 1214 and 3787 many times and will be experimenting with the Lallemand Abbaye Yeast (not the Fermentis Safbrew strain, assuming they are different). I'm not overly optimistic but am willing to give it a fair shake and see what results it gives. Personally, I like 1214/500 the most of all the strains I've used, with 3787/530 a close second.

I have an email correspondence going with Lallemand to try and get an idea of this specific strains provenance and flavor characteristics. I'll be testing it out in a few weeks.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170605/a6f47171a9cc618a03db932d68d7df8c.png)
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: chezteth on June 05, 2017, 01:06:39 PM
I'll be looking forward to your assessment. I don't brew a lot of Belgian styles. But, I do use a lot of dry yeast.

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Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 05, 2017, 01:16:20 PM
I'll be looking forward to your assessment. I don't brew a lot of Belgian styles. But, I do use a lot of dry yeast.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

I am only brewing four beers for the foreseeable future: A Single, Dubbel, Tripel and Dark Strong Ale.

I want to know that this yeast does/does not provide a sufficient flavor profile for the "Trappist Style" beers I'm dedicated to before I start either:

A.) Having fresh yeast shipped to me or;

B.) Start culturing yeast

We'll see. I am going to test it on the same recipe over a few different fermentation temperature profiles. If one of them proves credible, ill then test that temperature profile in all four recipes.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on June 05, 2017, 02:14:14 PM
Lallemand Abbaye is the same dry yeast that I selected based on some research for trying to clone La Fin du Monde.  Yeast is in the fridge.  I probably won't have time to brew it though until August or September.  I will be stepping up dregs from actual La Fin bottles for the other half of the batch, then will be able to compare results directly at the end.  I expect major differences, but also really don't know what to expect.  So I'll be following this thread with interest to see if you get your results much quicker than mine.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 05, 2017, 02:28:04 PM
Lallemand Abbaye is the same dry yeast that I selected based on some research for trying to clone La Fin du Monde.  Yeast is in the fridge.  I probably won't have time to brew it though until August or September.  I will be stepping up dregs from actual La Fin bottles for the other half of the batch, then will be able to compare results directly at the end.  I expect major differences, but also really don't know what to expect.  So I'll be following this thread with interest to see if you get your results much quicker than mine.  Thanks.

My first profile will be pitch at 64 °F and let rise unimpeded, which means in my basement area it will likely peak at 73-74 °F based solely on heat from fermentation.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: narcout on June 05, 2017, 04:36:01 PM
I hope your experience is better than mine.  I wouldn't use it again.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 05, 2017, 04:36:56 PM
I hope your experience is better than mine.  I wouldn't use it again.

This was the Lallemand version or Fermentis?
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on June 05, 2017, 04:39:48 PM
I hope your experience is better than mine.  I wouldn't use it again.

What was your experience, in detail, please?

Did you underpitch and treat the yeast like crap on purpose like I'm gonna do?
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: narcout on June 05, 2017, 04:46:04 PM
This was the Lallemand version or Fermentis?

I thought it was Lallemand, but now that I've looked at pictures of the packaging, it was the Safbrew Abbaye (which apparently is now called BE-256).

I hope they are different stains, or prepared differently or something.  I'll be interested to hear how it works for you.

Do you live somewhere where it's difficult to get liquid yeast through the mail?
Title: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 05, 2017, 04:52:40 PM
This was the Lallemand version or Fermentis?

I thought it was Lallemand, but now that I've looked at pictures of the packaging, it was the Safbrew Abbaye (which apparently is now called BE-256).

I hope they are different stains, or prepared differently or something.  I'll be interested to hear how it works for you.

Do you live somewhere where it's difficult to get liquid yeast through the mail?

Not really. I just figured I'd give the business to the local shop. I'm willing to give the yeast a fair shake. It's always a dream to find a dry yeast capable of the flavors I'd want in these types of beer. You don't know until you try it.

The problem is always this: either it's a dry English strain pawned off as "Belgian" ("ferment at higher temps...", etc.) or it's a relabeled Saison strain. I'm hoping this is different.

I've heard equally bad stuff about the Fermentis version. Terms like "bland", "one dimensional", etc. seem to come up on the reviews.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on June 05, 2017, 05:19:05 PM
Until more rigorously tested, I maintain a theory that Belgian yeasts, as well as German weizen yeasts, NEED to be treated badly.  And it probably doesn't hurt for some of the English strains as well.  At the prompting of Jamil Z and others, Americans have grown overly kind to these wonderful, characterful yeast strains, pitching at excessively high rates that they need to do their own thing, which turns them into something bland even if they're not.

But, I might be wrong.  I don't believe I am.  But I could be.  And I digress, somewhat, maybe.

Cheers all.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: denny on June 05, 2017, 05:35:16 PM
Until more rigorously tested, I maintain a theory that Belgian yeasts, as well as German weizen yeasts, NEED to be treated badly.  And it probably doesn't hurt for some of the English strains as well.  At the prompting of Jamil Z and others, Americans have grown overly kind to these wonderful, characterful yeast strains, pitching at excessively high rates that they need to do their own thing, which turns them into something bland even if they're not.

But, I might be wrong.  I don't believe I am.  But I could be.  And I digress, somewhat, maybe.

Cheers all.

IMO, in my brewery for my tastes, I disagree with treating Belgian yeasts "badly".  I treat them the same as I treat other strains and get exactly what I want out of them.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Phil_M on June 05, 2017, 05:40:59 PM
I think "badly" is the wrong term...they shouldn't be abused, but they do need to be treated differently.

The only Belgians I've brewed in earnest have been Saisons, and they do love open fermentations and warm temperatures. (Bordering on hot.)

British yeast...I don't think we're brewing correctly with them at all, and the "right" way may be vary strain dependent. We often think of the Belgians when we think whacky fermentation processes...but the Brits are responsible for fish tail aerators, Burton Unions, etc.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: denny on June 05, 2017, 05:52:25 PM
I think "badly" is the wrong term...they shouldn't be abused, but they do need to be treated differently.

The only Belgians I've brewed in earnest have been Saisons, and they do love open fermentations and warm temperatures. (Bordering on hot.)

British yeast...I don't think we're brewing correctly with them at all, and the "right" way may be vary strain dependent. We often think of the Belgians when we think whacky fermentation processes...but the Brits are responsible for fish tail aerators, Burton Unions, etc.

For my dubbels, tripels, BGSA, BDSA, etc. I treat them just like any other ale yeast.  High pitch rate, low temp starts, etc.
Title: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 05, 2017, 05:57:50 PM
My new MO (for the time being with my known strains, i.e. 1214 and 3787) is as follows:

1.) 1.25 M/ml/°P, 5-7 minutes aquarium pump aeration.

2.) Pitch at 64 °F, in my 65 °F basement in a water bath to wort level.

3.) Monitor temperature but do not control it. It stays around 64-66 °F for the first 24-36 hours.

4.) Let free rise to wherever it wants to go, although ambient temperature and thermal mass of water bath seems to clamp down and limit this to 73-74 °F maximum at peak.



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Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: jrdatta on June 05, 2017, 06:06:08 PM
My new MO (for the time being with my known strains, i.e. 1214 and 3787) is as follows:

1.) 1.25 M/ml/°P, 5-7 minutes aquarium pump aeration.


That pitch rate seems pretty high, almost bordering on lager territory. For dry you might need to cut it back a smidge from what I have read/heard from user experience for the dry Belgian strains.  As always take with a grain of salt and whatnot.
Title: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 05, 2017, 06:13:05 PM
My new MO (for the time being with my known strains, i.e. 1214 and 3787) is as follows:

1.) 1.25 M/ml/°P, 5-7 minutes aquarium pump aeration.


That pitch rate seems pretty high, almost bordering on lager territory. For dry you might need to cut it back a smidge from what I have read/heard from user experience for the dry Belgian strains.  As always take with a grain of salt and whatnot.

Notice the aeration though. That will only get me ~ 8 ppm DO after pitching.

There was a section from BLAM by Pizza Port's Tomme Arthur where he talks about their method for fermentation:

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170605/c3bcde0664d530f5e158cebe1b70e07f.png)

I sent an email to Tomme asking advice and he replied with some kind words and encouragement based on what I described. So far it's been working great.

That's is of course per my usual method and liquid yeast. I'll need to experiment with this strain. It may work out and may not. I'm always pulling for a good dry strain.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: jrdatta on June 05, 2017, 06:14:51 PM
Huh.  Fair enough.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: jrdatta on June 05, 2017, 06:18:33 PM
Though I thought there was somewhere I saw that dry has a reserve of oxygen or something of that nature which is why you can get good results with very little oxygenation using dry yeast.  There are even some saying not to oxygenate at all when using dry yeast.  Looking forward to what your findings are!
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: denny on June 05, 2017, 06:21:53 PM
Though I thought there was somewhere I saw that dry has a reserve of oxygen or something of that nature which is why you can get good results with very little oxygenation using dry yeast.  There are even some saying not to oxygenate at all when using dry yeast.  Looking forward to what your findings are!

Reserve of nutrients, not oxygen.  The purpose of oxygen it to help keep cell walls flexible and encourage cell growth.  The thinking is that dry yeast has so many cells that it's not necessary to get cell growth.  Whether or not that's the case, I don't know.  I do know that for the dry yeasts I use I don't aerate/oxygenate and have had no prblems becasue of it.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: jrdatta on June 05, 2017, 06:24:28 PM


Reserve of nutrients, not oxygen.  The purpose of oxygen it to help keep cell walls flexible and encourage cell growth.  The thinking is that dry yeast has so many cells that it's not necessary to get cell growth.  Whether or not that's the case, I don't know.  I do know that for the dry yeasts I use I don't aerate/oxygenate and have had no prblems becasue of it.
[/quote]

Ahhhhhh, gotcha. My bad there.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: narcout on June 05, 2017, 06:34:51 PM
Though I thought there was somewhere I saw that dry has a reserve of oxygen or something of that nature which is why you can get good results with very little oxygenation using dry yeast.

Dry yeast is propagated in such a way that they already have sufficient lipids for 3 to 4 growth cycles without additional aeration.

I used to have the link to a Lallemand Q&A page where Dr. Clayton Clone states this, but it doesn't seem to work anymore.

What was your experience, in detail, please?

Did you underpitch and treat the yeast like crap on purpose like I'm gonna do?

There was a lot of sulphur (both during fermentation and in the finished beer), though it dissipated in time.  There was also a strange flavor that I would describe as almond-like.  It wasn't terrible, just not what I was going for in a Belgian Pale. I just don't have the time or desire to experiment with it further.

I did not underpitch or do anything else out of the ordinary.

I'd be interested to taste a beer that someone else brewed with it.  Maybe I can find one at HBC.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 08, 2017, 01:38:25 PM
I received a response back from Lallemand to my inquiry. After introducing myself and a bit of my process, I had two focused questions for them, both of which are shown below with responses in red:

1.) Is there any information, which you consider non-proprietary, about the provenance of this yeast? It would be nice to compare it to something else in order to know how to adjust my fermentation profile for similar results to my usual strains. (Note: Earlier in the inquiry I stated my normal yeast choices are 1214/3787)

Our Abbaye strain was originally sourced from one of the Trappist monastery breweries in Belgium and is comparable to WLP500/WY1214, giving the stone fruit/estery notes at higher gravity and fermentation temps, and more "earthy" notes at lower temps. Personally, I find it really comes into it's own on Darker styles, but is suitable for [all] the classic Belgian styles.

2.) I have read the [technical specifications] sheet and was wondering if you could provide a more definite cell count per gram than what is posted [there]. There seems to be a great gap between what some "experts" quote on cell counts versus what the yeast companies are quoting. I understand that the producer must not over-estimate cell counts, but some of the high estimates I've seen floating around are as high as 20 x 109 cells/gram. That seems crazy to me so i have always estimated [between] 10-12 x 109 cells per gram. Any insights on this?

These high cell counts of 20 x 109 cells per gram are coming from the wine industry. For most of our wine strains, the [technical specifications] are > 20 x 109 cells per gram. The cells of brewing yeast are usually larger than wine yeast cells so fewer cells per gram [are expected], but most of the wine yeast also have higher viability. Beer yeast usually have 5-10 x 109 cells per gram. Abbaye [has] more like 5-7 x 109 cells per gram.

Needless to say, i'll DEFINITELY be trying it out.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on June 08, 2017, 02:20:20 PM
I dare you to split a batch, and with the control batch, pitch the amount you're sure that you should, and with the other half, use 1/4 to 1/2 as much yeast, no aeration, no rehydration, just sprinkle on top.  Then compare results.  That's what I'm gonna do.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 08, 2017, 02:23:18 PM
I dare you to split a batch, and with the control batch, pitch the amount you're sure that you should, and with the other half, use 1/4 to 1/2 as much yeast, no aeration, no rehydration, just sprinkle on top.  Then compare results.  That's what I'm gonna do.

I'd expect nothing less!
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: narcout on June 08, 2017, 04:35:10 PM
Beer yeast usually have 5-10 x 109 cells per gram. Abbaye [has] more like 5-7 x 109 cells per gram.[/b][/color]

I wonder why this is so at odds with what people who have done cell counts report.

It occurs to me that it's going to be difficult to control yeast growth by restricting oxygen, though only for the first generation.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 08, 2017, 05:14:56 PM
Beer yeast usually have 5-10 x 109 cells per gram. Abbaye [has] more like 5-7 x 109 cells per gram.[/b][/color]

I wonder why this is so at odds with what people who have done cell counts report.

It occurs to me that it's going to be difficult to control yeast growth by restricting oxygen, though only for the first generation.

You could overpitch. Again, I'm coming at this from an experimental/trial and error approach so I'll have to play with it.

I was pleasantly surprised that it has Monastic provenance though. That's a damn good sign, I'd say. Whether it performs like it's "wet" brethren remains to be seen...
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: skyler on June 10, 2017, 12:01:46 AM
Since many Belgian styles tend to be higher gravity, perhaps a simple test of one packet for an ordinary-strength dubbel or tripel would be sufficient to test "underpitching." I'll get around toi trying that, one of these days.
Title: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 12, 2017, 10:17:20 PM
I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: stpug on June 13, 2017, 02:09:28 PM
I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

So they are saying that their 11gram sachets have 55-110 billion cells per sachet when properly rehydrated.  Abbaye will have 55-77 billion cells per sachet, rehydrated.  Correct?
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: zwiller on June 13, 2017, 02:42:16 PM
I still think they are playing "worst case scenario" here.  Not sure if I posted but the yeast that converted me to dry was WB06.  It is an excellent expressive hefe yeast although it is not the classic banana clove strain so I have some confidence that a belgian dry yeast would perform similar.  That said, the users in the pro brewing forum seem to indicate Abbaye might be Rochefort...  Maybe after counting someone can do DNA?   ;D
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 13, 2017, 02:52:52 PM
I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

So they are saying that their 11gram sachets have 55-110 billion cells per sachet when properly rehydrated.  Abbaye will have 55-77 billion cells per sachet, rehydrated.  Correct?

That's correct. I'm aware of Sean Terrill's viability count writeup and I'm not trying to poo poo stuff like that, but that's one data point. Also, the JZ anecdotes about cell counts, etc. have no references.

For me, I'm going to trust the manufacturer under the assumption that they wouldn't just give 10 x 10e9 cells away if they didn't have to.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 13, 2017, 02:53:32 PM
I still think they are playing "worst case scenario" here.  Not sure if I posted but the yeast that converted me to dry was WB06.  It is an excellent expressive hefe yeast although it is not the classic banana clove strain so I have some confidence that a belgian dry yeast would perform similar.  That said, the users in the pro brewing forum seem to indicate Abbaye might be Rochefort...  Maybe after counting someone can do DNA?   ;D

Lallemand says it compare to Chimay and the flavor wheel they provide seems to support that.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: zwiller on June 13, 2017, 03:13:52 PM
I still think they are playing "worst case scenario" here.  Not sure if I posted but the yeast that converted me to dry was WB06.  It is an excellent expressive hefe yeast although it is not the classic banana clove strain so I have some confidence that a belgian dry yeast would perform similar.  That said, the users in the pro brewing forum seem to indicate Abbaye might be Rochefort...  Maybe after counting someone can do DNA?   ;D

Lallemand says it compare to Chimay and the flavor wheel they provide seems to support that.
I don't think we could ask for a better judge than you for this and interested in your findings. 
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: stpug on June 13, 2017, 05:34:37 PM
I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

So they are saying that their 11gram sachets have 55-110 billion cells per sachet when properly rehydrated.  Abbaye will have 55-77 billion cells per sachet, rehydrated.  Correct?

That's correct. I'm aware of Sean Terrill's viability count writeup and I'm not trying to poo poo stuff like that, but that's one data point. Also, the JZ anecdotes about cell counts, etc. have no references.

For me, I'm going to trust the manufacturer under the assumption that they wouldn't just give 10 x 10e9 cells away if they didn't have to.

Thanks for confirming those numbers.  Many homebrewers are familiar with billions of cells needed for 5 gallons, versus e^? values/gr, so I was mostly trying to put those numbers in layman's terms :D

As for cell counts in dry sachets, I've known that for years.  It's pretty easy to know when you RTFM ;D.

Another cell counting data point from a few years ago.  I remember Steve posting this back then and he took some flack for it because folks didn't like that his counts didn't match the wishful thinking.  Oh well....

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/how-many-cells-are-in-package.html
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: The Beerery on June 13, 2017, 05:52:51 PM
I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

So they are saying that their 11gram sachets have 55-110 billion cells per sachet when properly rehydrated.  Abbaye will have 55-77 billion cells per sachet, rehydrated.  Correct?

That's correct. I'm aware of Sean Terrill's viability count writeup and I'm not trying to poo poo stuff like that, but that's one data point. Also, the JZ anecdotes about cell counts, etc. have no references.

For me, I'm going to trust the manufacturer under the assumption that they wouldn't just give 10 x 10e9 cells away if they didn't have to.

Thanks for confirming those numbers.  Many homebrewers are familiar with billions of cells needed for 5 gallons, versus e^? values/gr, so I was mostly trying to put those numbers in layman's terms :D

As for cell counts in dry sachets, I've known that for years.  It's pretty easy to know when you RTFM ;D.

Another cell counting data point from a few years ago.  I remember Steve posting this back then and he took some flack for it because folks didn't like that his counts didn't match the wishful thinking.  Oh well....

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/how-many-cells-are-in-package.html

FWIW, I never believed in that dogma either. If I pitch dry yeast on an moderate gravity ale I chose to either rehydrate with 1 pack or sprinkle with 2 packs. This meets my expectations of activity within 6 hours and a healthy fermentation.  Usually these days I chose to sprinkle since I get my packs for just over $1.50.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 19, 2017, 01:12:42 PM
A quick update:

Per the recommendations from Lallemand R&D, I pitch a single packet, rehydrated, into the 17.5 °Bx wort I brewed yesterday.

I pitched at around 68 °F and the temperature stabilized to 64 °F within 2 hours. I had activity less than 6 hours later.


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Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 22, 2017, 01:25:06 AM
Ok, so a quick update:

Beer was just bottled at 8 °Bx. FFT showed 7 °Bx for 87% AA.

Temperature peaked at 69 °F and started at 64 °F so this can serve as the "low range" test for temperature. All in all, 3 days to Spund, another day or so to finish, and I'll crack one on Sunday.


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Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: 69franx on June 22, 2017, 01:32:03 AM
Thats pretty darn quick Derek. Make sure to let us know how well the carb level turns out
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 22, 2017, 01:34:10 AM
Thats pretty darn quick Derek. Make sure to let us know how well the carb level turns out

My Dubbel ("2 Monks") was carbed perfectly and grain to glass in 9 days. By Day 12 the second bottle I cracked was fantastic. I aimed for 2.5 on that one. It was perfectly carbonated.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: 69franx on June 22, 2017, 01:40:09 AM
Nice, glad its working out. Did you have to bottle at some crazy hour to hit the brix correctly?
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 22, 2017, 01:42:33 AM
Nice, glad its working out. Did you have to bottle at some crazy hour to hit the brix correctly?

When I got home today, FFT was at 7 °Bx. I bottled at 8 °Bx when the kids went down and was done in 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: 69franx on June 22, 2017, 01:43:47 AM
Yes, spur of the moment bottling would be a sticking point for me and 5-6 gallon batches, I know you are doing significantly less, so no problem
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: chumley on June 22, 2017, 03:18:07 AM
Late to the thread, not really relevant, but anecdotal and about dry Belgian yeasts.....

My local brew shop in a Montana town is actually just a wing of an Ace Hardware store, so there.

Their yeast and hops selection isn't much.  I have been using the Belle Saison yeast and have not been overly impressed with it.  Too peppery, some medicinal, no fruity esters.  I have been using it in 1.045 to 1.070 beers mainly.

I brewed a 1.055 blond in April, same result.  Drinkable, but no wow factor. Then I brewed a 1.080 tripel, split it with the WLP trappist blend and the Belle Saison yeast cake.  Wow!  Really nice beer.  Fruitiness dominates over spiciness. 

Just my two cents worth.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on June 22, 2017, 03:20:25 AM
Late to the thread, not really relevant, but anecdotal and about dry Belgian yeasts.....

My local brew shop in a Montana town is actually just a wing of an Ace Hardware store, so there.

Their yeast and hops selection isn't much.  I have been using the Belle Saison yeast and have not been overly impressed with it.  Too peppery, some medicinal, no fruity esters.  I have been using it in 1.045 to 1.070 beers mainly.

I brewed a 1.055 blond in April, same result.  Drinkable, but no wow factor. Then I brewed a 1.080 tripel, split it with the WLP trappist blend and the Belle Saison yeast cake.  Wow!  Really nice beer.  Fruitiness dominates over spiciness. 

Just my two cents worth.

Lallemand is purported to be comparable to WLP500 and WY1214.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: narcout on July 11, 2017, 07:47:25 PM
How is it?
Title: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on July 11, 2017, 09:43:37 PM
How is it?

I'm inclined to believe 2 things:

1.) This yeast likes wärmer fermentation temps (67-68 starting and finishing in the 70s) and

2.) I may have overpitched using the Lallemand numbers. At least that is how it tasted. It was a dumper.

I'm trying again with a Dark Strong Ale recipe, generally accepted homebrewer numbers for dry yeast and warmer temperature.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on July 11, 2017, 10:07:14 PM
2.) I may have overpitched using the Lallemand numbers. At least that is how it tasted. It was a dumper.

 :o  :o  :o  :o

Underpitch on purpose, man, I'm telling you... we all overpitch with dry yeast, man.

 8)
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: narcout on July 11, 2017, 10:11:38 PM
Bummer, too clean?

Did it kick out much sulphur during fermentation?
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on July 11, 2017, 10:17:09 PM
Did it kick out much sulphur during fermentation?

We'll see what he says but I'll bet it did.  Which would be a good thing, not a bad thing.  I figure, the more stanky aromas that come out of beer during fermentation, the less stanky stuff is left in the beer after packaging.  The inverse is true sometimes, for some strains -- the less, the more -- but more true for Belgians and Germans than for Americans, Brits, etc.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on July 11, 2017, 10:36:39 PM
Bummer, too clean?

Did it kick out much sulphur during fermentation?

Earthy and phenolic from the low temps and major solvent from what I gather was a major overpitch.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on July 11, 2017, 11:17:41 PM
Bummer, too clean?

Did it kick out much sulphur during fermentation?

Earthy and phenolic from the low temps and major solvent from what I gather was a major overpitch.

Oh!   :o  Total opposite from what I was thinking.  So perhaps temperature control really is critical with this one?  Hmm.  We'll have to play with it.  I'm going to get it to work, dammit.  Now I'll have to run several side-by-sides and not just a couple.  If/when I do, I'll share results.  Next month I think.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on July 11, 2017, 11:31:57 PM
Bummer, too clean?

Did it kick out much sulphur during fermentation?

Earthy and phenolic from the low temps and major solvent from what I gather was a major overpitch.

Oh!   :o  Total opposite from what I was thinking.  So perhaps temperature control really is critical with this one?  Hmm.  We'll have to play with it.  I'm going to get it to work, dammit.  Now I'll have to run several side-by-sides and not just a couple.  If/when I do, I'll share results.  Next month I think.

The opposite I think. It needs to start warmer and free rise into the 70s. So no temp control at all.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on July 12, 2017, 03:45:46 AM
Hmm.  I'll have to pull out BLAM again, been a while.
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on July 12, 2017, 09:08:06 AM
Hmm.  I'll have to pull out BLAM again, been a while.

If you take what Lallemand says at face value:

"Our Abbaye strain was originally sourced from one of the trappist/monastery breweries in Belgium and is comparable to WLP500, giving the stone fruit/estery notes at higher gravity and fermentation temps and more 'earthy' notes at lower temps. Personally, I find it really comes into its own on darker styles with richer flavour but is suitable for the classic Belgian styles."

This makes sense given what we know about Chimay. Starts at 68, finishes in the mid to high 70s.


Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: brewinhard on July 12, 2017, 08:12:49 PM
Hmm.  I'll have to pull out BLAM again, been a while.

If you take what Lallemand says at face value:



This makes sense given what we know about Chimay. Starts at 68, finishes in the mid to high 70s.

Good notes Derek. Sorry for the dumper. At least it was a small batch and now you know how to tweak if for next time.

So, you think a smaller pitch AND start at 68F to free rise then?
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: zwiller on July 12, 2017, 09:12:12 PM
Dang, a dumper.  Sorry to read that!  Is pitch rate really that well understood with expressive yeasts?  No need for cites but I think most of this in anecdotal? 
Title: Re: Lallemand Abbaye dry yeast
Post by: Big Monk on July 12, 2017, 11:15:48 PM
Dang, a dumper.  Sorry to read that!  Is pitch rate really that well understood with expressive yeasts?  No need for cites but I think most of this in anecdotal?

Pitch rates? Anecdotal? I don't think so.