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General Category => Going Pro => Topic started by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 01:32:16 PM

Title: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 01:32:16 PM
So, here are the Licenses I would be interested in getting in descending order of importance to what I am doing.

Liquor License
https://www.ttb.gov/forms/f56305d.pdf

Importer's License
https://www.ttb.gov/forms/f510024.pdf

Distilling License
https://www.ttb.gov/ponl/permits-online-required-documents.shtml

And if you look at the first one, the Liquor License, the Retail alcohol sales license. It looks like they might just do a background check and maybe an address check to make sure that you are zoned for retail or something. But the only license that asks for something like a "Blue-print of your location" is the Distilling License, it seems like the retail license is really easy to get. And why wouldn't it be? They always say "If it were easy, everyone would do it" and basically everyone gets a liquor license (Restaurants, etc). And they don't want to make it hard for everyone, which makes sense.

And, has anyone ever heard of anyone getting a liquor license and selling $1 cups of Beer at parties? And what kind of license would you need if you were going to sell bottles to people like a grocery store does, instead of like a bar does? Is there a difference in licensing, or would those 2 things be the same?

Also, where does Cider stand as far as legal Classification? Is it a Beer or Wine or what is it exactly when you are getting a license for it? And do you think that same license would cover Banana Beer or things like Sangria?

If anyone has any more information on this than I do, please share it here.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 01:37:47 PM
Oh, and some background on the plan. So I am in Colorado and I am organizing a bunch of people to create a loose Confederation of Marijuana Growers so that we can have a large Breeding Program, and share strains and everything, and I want to get a license for the events. We might eventually try to make it like a Moose Lodge or Rotary Club type thing.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 01:39:17 PM
But starting off I will just be making large batches for a group of 3 people, then the organized group will start meeting in August or September.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: kramerog on June 29, 2017, 02:20:28 PM
A few thoughts: The licenses you point to are just federal licenses.  You probably also need Colorado licenses.  I'm also unclear if you want to make beer or distill.  Those require different licenses. Additionally, I don't know if Colorado allows distilleries to have "taprooms" for on-premises consumption or off-premises consumption.

If all you want to do is have some parties/meetings,  why not just have a party/meeting without selling beer?
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 29, 2017, 02:39:44 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 03:00:43 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.

Lol. Marijuana is legal here. And there are already meet and greets where people pay $10 to get in and then they can smoke and buy alcohol there. So it's already happening. Good point though, if it weren't already worked out I might be worried about it.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: denny on June 29, 2017, 03:17:07 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.

Lol. Marijuana is legal here. And there are already meet and greets where people pay $10 to get in and then they can smoke and buy alcohol there. So it's already happening. Good point though, if it weren't already worked out I might be worried about it.

I doubt it's worked out.  Likely just under the radar.  As I advise anyone who wants to brew commercially and legally, talk to a lawyer.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Big Monk on June 29, 2017, 03:19:09 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.

Lol. Marijuana is legal here. And there are already meet and greets where people pay $10 to get in and then they can smoke and buy alcohol there. So it's already happening. Good point though, if it weren't already worked out I might be worried about it.

I think what he's trying to say is that Marijuana is not legal Federally. Ultimately, you may be hampered by Federal Law in getting licenses if you are a part of a federation of Marijuana Growers.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 03:39:25 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.

Lol. Marijuana is legal here. And there are already meet and greets where people pay $10 to get in and then they can smoke and buy alcohol there. So it's already happening. Good point though, if it weren't already worked out I might be worried about it.

I think what he's trying to say is that Marijuana is not legal Federally. Ultimately, you may be hampered by Federal Law in getting licenses if you are a part of a federation of Marijuana Growers.

Other people do it so I don't think so.

Read the Cole memorabdum put out by the DOJ, it says that State Marijuana laws are not federal business.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Stevie on June 29, 2017, 04:28:41 PM
Let's not argue the complex nature of federal vs state marijuana laws.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: majorvices on June 29, 2017, 06:02:33 PM
You have to have a wine license to make cider. No idea about selling it.

You also seem to be forgetting that your local ordinance will often times be more strict than the feds.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: narvin on June 29, 2017, 10:52:42 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.

Lol. Marijuana is legal here. And there are already meet and greets where people pay $10 to get in and then they can smoke and buy alcohol there. So it's already happening. Good point though, if it weren't already worked out I might be worried about it.

And you have to pay cash.  Why?  Because no bank (which needs federal licensing) will touch it.

I'm not against it but this is the reality of the situation right now.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 11:23:55 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.

Lol. Marijuana is legal here. And there are already meet and greets where people pay $10 to get in and then they can smoke and buy alcohol there. So it's already happening. Good point though, if it weren't already worked out I might be worried about it.

And you have to pay cash.  Why?  Because no bank (which needs federal licensing) will touch it.

I'm not against it but this is the reality of the situation right now.

Banks accept it now. Again, the Cole Memorandum. I'll get a link.
https://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/3052013829132756857467.pdf
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/faqs_policy_statement_regarding_marijuana_issues_in_indian_country_28jan15.pdf

Basically what the Cole Memorandum says is 3 things:
1. Don't mess with State Marijuana Laws, just focus on real crime.
2. Native American Nations can legalize Marijuana, regardless of the US State that Landlocks them
3. Keep Marijuana out of illegal channels (The Controlled Substances Act does not Ban drugs outright)

Also, look up DEA form 225, and protocol found in 21 CFR 1301 and 81 FR 53846.

This company legally sells Cocaine:
http://www2.mallinckrodt.com/Templates/Pages/productdetail.aspx?id=1597
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: narvin on June 29, 2017, 11:36:35 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.

Lol. Marijuana is legal here. And there are already meet and greets where people pay $10 to get in and then they can smoke and buy alcohol there. So it's already happening. Good point though, if it weren't already worked out I might be worried about it.

And you have to pay cash.  Why?  Because no bank (which needs federal licensing) will touch it.

I'm not against it but this is the reality of the situation right now.

Banks accept it now. Again, the Cole Memorandum. I'll get a link.
https://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/3052013829132756857467.pdf
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/faqs_policy_statement_regarding_marijuana_issues_in_indian_country_28jan15.pdf

Basically what the Cole Memorandum says is 3 things:
1. Don't mess with State Marijuana Laws, just focus on real crime.
2. Native American Nations can legalize Marijuana, regardless of the US State that Landlocks them
3. Keep Marijuana out of illegal channels (The Controlled Substances Act does not Ban drugs outright)

Also, look up DEA form 225, and protocol found in 21 CFR 1301 and 81 FR 53846.

This company legally sells Cocaine:
http://www2.mallinckrodt.com/Templates/Pages/productdetail.aspx?id=1597

Selling schedule II drugs to the healthcare industry is really not relevant to this discussion.  Almost all dispensaries are still running a cash business.  A memorandum from 2011 is not binding, especially with a new attorney general who has different priorities.

If you are not buying or selling marijuana, there probably won't be a problem.  But the concern that the TTB would reject that application for it is real.

Aside from that, the people who said that local licensing and zoning are a bigger deal are correct.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 11:36:57 PM
Here are the lists of Companies that import Schedule I and Schedule II Substances into the country every year, as well as Manufacture Schedule I and Schedule II Substances.
https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/FED_REGS/index.html

This case was one where the Federal Court said that the DEA needed to allow more companies to Manufacture Cocaine, so as not to enforce Monopolization of the Market.
Noramco DE Inc v. DEA, No. 02-1211 (D.C. Cir. 2004)

This came from the DOJ Anti-Trust Division and is basically the DOJ telling the DEA that they need to make sure that they aren't enforcing Monopolies.
https://www.justice.gov/atr/memorandum-antitrust-division-united-states-department-justice-amicus-curiae-support-application

So I am pretty sure that the reason no one has a problem with Retail Alcohol Licenses in Colorado is because this is pretty much settled.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 11:39:59 PM
Feel pretty confident that the TTB is not handing out any type of license to a group with a primary purpose to violate federal law.

Lol. Marijuana is legal here. And there are already meet and greets where people pay $10 to get in and then they can smoke and buy alcohol there. So it's already happening. Good point though, if it weren't already worked out I might be worried about it.

And you have to pay cash.  Why?  Because no bank (which needs federal licensing) will touch it.

I'm not against it but this is the reality of the situation right now.

Banks accept it now. Again, the Cole Memorandum. I'll get a link.
https://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/3052013829132756857467.pdf
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/faqs_policy_statement_regarding_marijuana_issues_in_indian_country_28jan15.pdf

Basically what the Cole Memorandum says is 3 things:
1. Don't mess with State Marijuana Laws, just focus on real crime.
2. Native American Nations can legalize Marijuana, regardless of the US State that Landlocks them
3. Keep Marijuana out of illegal channels (The Controlled Substances Act does not Ban drugs outright)

Also, look up DEA form 225, and protocol found in 21 CFR 1301 and 81 FR 53846.

This company legally sells Cocaine:
http://www2.mallinckrodt.com/Templates/Pages/productdetail.aspx?id=1597

Selling schedule II drugs to the healthcare industry is really not relevant to this discussion.  Almost all dispensaries are still running a cash business.  A memorandum from 2011 is not binding, especially with a new attorney general who has different priorities.

If you are not buying or selling marijuana, there probably won't be a problem.  But the concern that the TTB would reject that application for it is real.

Aside from that, the people who said that local licensing and zoning are a bigger deal are correct.

My point is not that people are selling things on the Medical Market, my point is that this has all pretty much been decided. And it's not just the Attorney General, Congress wrote something too. If you really really want me to I can go find that too.

And that was not just to Medical Research Market. The University of Mississippi has been growing and giving Marijuana to Patients for years under these rules. And Stepan Company sells Coca extract, minus the Cocaine, to Coca-Cola. So this isn't just about Medical applications.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 29, 2017, 11:41:05 PM
You have to have a wine license to make cider. No idea about selling it.

You also seem to be forgetting that your local ordinance will often times be more strict than the feds.

Ok, good to know. So I'll get a Wine License first if I get anything. I'm in Colorado, so there is not a lot of Alcohol restriction here. They call Coors, "Colorado Kool-Aid".
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on June 30, 2017, 07:50:32 PM
Federal Law:
26 U.S. Code ยง 5042
(a)Tax-free production
(1)Cider
Subject to regulations prescribed by the Secretary, the noneffervescent product of the normal alcoholic fermentation of apple juice only, which is produced at a place other than a bonded wine cellar and without the use of preservative methods or materials, and which is sold or offered for sale as cider and not as wine or as a substitute for wine, shall not be subject to tax as wine nor to the provisions of subchapter F.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on July 09, 2017, 02:03:25 PM
I just thought of some Questions.

I have done some  organizing, getting hundreds or thousands of people to show up somewhere. And I'm wondering, what would be the rules for like a Pop-Up that sells bottles? Or a keg at a Field Rave? What kind of license would you need for those kinds of sales? A normal license just covers 1 premesis, or a number of premises right? Not random locations. So how would that work?
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: majorvices on July 09, 2017, 02:11:48 PM
I'm sure few people if any have any clue to that question. You'd be better off contacting your local beverage control authority.

And as far as the legalese you posted, all I can tell you is that every brewery in Alabama that produces cider has to have a wine license. No exceptions.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Stevie on July 09, 2017, 02:12:15 PM
Talk to a lawyer familiar with the laws in your area.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on July 09, 2017, 02:12:32 PM
And btw, I'm thinking of going to a Convention. Maybe Cider or Wine, but I'm going to pick one in the next 2 years and go. And a lot of other people will go if I go.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Stevie on July 09, 2017, 02:13:25 PM
And btw, I'm thinking of going to a Convention. Maybe Cider or Wine, but I'm going to pick one in the next 2 years and go. And a lot of other people will go if I go.
NHC is in Portland next year.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on July 09, 2017, 02:17:04 PM
I'm sure few people if any have any clue to that question. You'd be better off contacting your local beverage control authority.

And as far as the legalese you posted, all I can tell you is that every brewery in Alabama that produces cider has to have a wine license. No exceptions.

No. It's just suggested you have a license. I'm not sure if there are court cases regarding this law, but it's a positive law so there very likely may be no cases as they would just let you go and drop charges before trial once they read it. But I assume the people making Cider in Alabama are doing like Bitcoin users and "When the IRS says to pay taxes, you pay taxes". But no Federal Court has ever ruled that the IRS was constitutional in making people pay taxes for Bitcoins, and it could easily be a case that goes to the Supreme Court to be decided once and for all. But people just pay the taxes instead.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Big Monk on July 09, 2017, 02:29:55 PM
By the time you paid a lawyer to fight the case you could just get the license. Just because you don't have to pay taxes on something doesn't mean you do t have to be licensed to produce it.


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Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on July 09, 2017, 02:31:01 PM
And btw, I'm thinking of going to a Convention. Maybe Cider or Wine, but I'm going to pick one in the next 2 years and go. And a lot of other people will go if I go.
NHC is in Portland next year.

I'll keep that in mind, but I'm looking for something either in/near Colorado or in/near Armenia.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on July 09, 2017, 02:35:27 PM
By the time you paid a lawyer to fight the case you could just get the license. Just because you don't have to pay taxes on something doesn't mean you do t have to be licensed to produce it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I do everything Pro Se. I have won a Religious Marijuana Case, 2 Driving on the wrong side of the road Cases. I was also the center of a Narcotics Investigation where by the end of it the Narcotics Conspiracy Sergeant of a Capitol City Police Department was apologizing to me and sending me CS Lewis quotes when he told me i could go to the Forensic Lab to pick up everything. And when I got there and the people at the evidence room saw the bag they called him to make sure he wanted to release it. I have also helped people with Felony cases up to Manslaughter (Involuntary, he was in a wheelchair the other guy died in the wreck).

I know a little bit about the law.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Big Monk on July 09, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
Right you've said that before.


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Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on July 09, 2017, 02:47:30 PM
And this is random, but Pro Se and ProSeCutor. Most people don't notice that. Even if they have heard the phrase "Pro Se" before.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Sasha on July 09, 2017, 03:05:55 PM
For Colorado it looks like May is the Season for Cider Conventions and Festivals
http://www.rmcider.net/events/cider-week-colorado-2017
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: Stevie on July 09, 2017, 03:26:47 PM
For Colorado it looks like May is the Season for Cider Conventions and Festivals
http://www.rmcider.net/events/cider-week-colorado-2017
False assumption. Pro se = for self. Pro secu = for security.
Title: Re: Retail License Questions
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 10, 2017, 03:28:15 PM
I know a little bit about the law.

Not according to several federal judges.