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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: majorvices on July 01, 2017, 02:47:18 PM

Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 01, 2017, 02:47:18 PM
Can't wait to see the comments. This is already backfiring BIGLY on social media. ;)

http://draftmag.com/the-high-end-responds-to-independent-craft-seal/
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: MDixon on July 01, 2017, 03:18:18 PM
Last time I checked there was no market share grab against wine and spirits. Makes it sounds like a finite market.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: narvin on July 01, 2017, 03:24:58 PM
Why don't they just put "Owned by Anheuser Busch-Inbev" on their labels and let the consumer decide? ::)
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 01, 2017, 03:57:53 PM
I can see why it's backfiring. The video was freaking laughable. IMO once you sell your brewery (free country, can't say I wouldn't for a giant pile of money), you lose the right to b**** that others want to differentiate themselves. Shelf and tap space are at stake for the small guys, so the ship has probably sailed on the "we need to all come together against wine and spirits" BS.  ;D
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 01, 2017, 04:28:56 PM
They left Mead and cider out of it? Haven't watched it.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 01, 2017, 04:45:32 PM
They left Mead and cider out of it? Haven't watched it.

Well you should
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 01, 2017, 04:50:13 PM
I can see why it's backfiring. The video was freaking laughable. IMO once you sell your brewery (free country, can't say I wouldn't for a giant pile of money), you lose the right to b**** that others want to differentiate themselves. Shelf and tap space are at stake for the small guys, so the ship has probably sailed on the "we need to all come together against wine and spirits" BS.  ;D

I'm sure all the European breweries who were disguising themselves as "Trappist" wined and b****ed like little sissy boys (and girls) when a label designation was made to delineate one from the other as well.

This may be the best and most worthwhile thing (the logo designation) the BA has ever done. Very proud to be a member. Definitely going to put that logo on my labels.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 01, 2017, 05:31:27 PM
I can see why it's backfiring. The video was freaking laughable. IMO once you sell your brewery (free country, can't say I wouldn't for a giant pile of money), you lose the right to b**** that others want to differentiate themselves. Shelf and tap space are at stake for the small guys, so the ship has probably sailed on the "we need to all come together against wine and spirits" BS.  ;D

I'm sure all the European breweries who were disguising themselves as "Trappist" wined and b****ed like little sissy boys (and girls) when a label designation was made to delineate one from the other as well.

This may be the best and most worthwhile thing (the logo designation) the BA has ever done. Very proud to be a member. Definitely going to put that logo on my labels.


Totally agree, Keith. And good for you.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: 28th Street on July 01, 2017, 08:25:51 PM
They are all repeating what they told themselves when they sold out!

If i am on the fence between 2 beers and one has the bottle and the other doesn't, i am going with the beer that shows the bottle.
Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 01, 2017, 08:29:55 PM
They are all repeating what they told themselves when they sold out!

If i am on the fence between 2 beers and one has the bottle and the other doesn't, i am going with the beer that shows the bottle.

And if the one with the bottle tastes like crap? What then?

There is a lot of bad craft beer out there. That doesn't mean I want to see good ones go down the tubes but a label isn't going to solve this issue.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: denny on July 01, 2017, 08:38:05 PM
They are all repeating what they told themselves when they sold out!

If i am on the fence between 2 beers and one has the bottle and the other doesn't, i am going with the beer that shows the bottle.

And if the one with the bottle tastes like crap? What then?

There is a lot of bad craft beer out there. That doesn't mean I want to see good ones go down the tubes but a label isn't going to solve this issue.

The label isn't meant to solve that problem.  It has nothing to do with indicating the quality of the beer.  It's just a piece of information.  What you do with that information is up to you.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 01, 2017, 08:45:09 PM
They are all repeating what they told themselves when they sold out!

If i am on the fence between 2 beers and one has the bottle and the other doesn't, i am going with the beer that shows the bottle.

And if the one with the bottle tastes like crap? What then?

There is a lot of bad craft beer out there. That doesn't mean I want to see good ones go down the tubes but a label isn't going to solve this issue.

The label isn't meant to solve that problem.  It has nothing to do with indicating the quality of the beer.  It's just a piece of information.  What you do with that information is up to you.

What's the point then? To identify independently made beer that is good and bad?

Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 01, 2017, 08:53:50 PM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.
Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 01, 2017, 09:02:24 PM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.

I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: riceral on July 01, 2017, 09:03:51 PM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.

Exactly, Jon. I was going to say it's like seeing on the restaurant sign "made with locally grown ingredients."

And I like the idea about putting a label on beers that are owned by AB-InBev.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: narvin on July 01, 2017, 09:08:03 PM
They are all repeating what they told themselves when they sold out!

If i am on the fence between 2 beers and one has the bottle and the other doesn't, i am going with the beer that shows the bottle.

And if the one with the bottle tastes like crap? What then?

There is a lot of bad craft beer out there. That doesn't mean I want to see good ones go down the tubes but a label isn't going to solve this issue.

The label isn't meant to solve that problem.  It has nothing to do with indicating the quality of the beer.  It's just a piece of information.  What you do with that information is up to you.

What's the point then? To identify independently made beer that is good and bad?

There's good and bad beer of all stripes. Inbev could brew any craft beer they wanted, so why are they buying breweries?  For the branding, which was based on some level of "authenticity".  I don't care if people buy it or not but this is at least forcing some level of truth in advertising for those who buy solely based on marketing (and let's face it, this is the majority of consumers).

It's not going to stop any of their distribution practices, but it can at least expose some of the deceptive marketing that is so blatantly using small brewery cachet.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: boulderbrewer on July 01, 2017, 09:25:25 PM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.

I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

You don't have to buy the rights to the logo and you don't have to be a Brewers Association Member to use it.  All you have to do is meet the criteria set by the BA.
Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 01, 2017, 11:07:23 PM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.

I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

You don't have to buy the rights to the logo and you don't have to be a Brewers Association Member to use it.  All you have to do is meet the criteria set by the BA.

I misinterpreted the article then. That's my fault for not reading closely enough.

I guess I'm in the camp that says independence isn't a big deal for me. I love that some of my favorites breweries are either family owned or smaller breweries that have National distribution, but if the macros produced excellent beers I would go where the quality was. For it doesn't matter whether a macro or a craft brewer makes my beer. As long as it's good. A lot of macro beer is straight swill and so is a lot of craft beer but whether they are independent or not doesn't "resonate" with me like it does "millennials".

On the other hand, they're are guys here in this forum who own or run breweries and I can appreciate that this stuff hits closer to home than it does for me.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 01, 2017, 11:50:32 PM
FWIW I'm 50 years old, and a little out of Millenial range. Wouldn't mind being that age again, though.  :)
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 02, 2017, 12:03:56 AM
FWIW I'm 50 years old, and a little out of Millenial range. Wouldn't mind being that age again, though.  :)

I'm 32 so technically I am a millennial (although they whine too much and expect participation trophies for everything so I can't identify as one ) but I was mostly just quoting the BA press:

"Independence is a hallmark of the craft brewing industry, and it matters to the brewers who make the beer and the beer lovers who drink it. A recent study commissioned by Brewbound and conducted Nielsen found that “independent” and “independently owned” strongly resonated with the majority (81 percent) of craft beer drinkers. Increasingly, they are looking for differentiation between what’s being produced by small and independent craft brewers versus Big Beer and acquired brands. Beer drinkers, especially Millennials, expect transparency when it comes to their food and beverages. That transparency and underlying ownership can drive their purchase intent."
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 02, 2017, 12:04:35 AM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.

I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

You don't have to buy the rights to the logo and you don't have to be a Brewers Association Member to use it.  All you have to do is meet the criteria set by the BA.

I misinterpreted the article then. That's my fault for not reading closely enough.

I guess I'm in the camp that says independence isn't a big deal for me. I love that some of my favorites breweries are either family owned or smaller breweries that have National distribution, but if the macros produced excellent beers I would go where the quality was. For it doesn't matter whether a macro or a craft brewer makes my beer. As long as it's good. A lot of macro beer is straight swill and so is a lot of craft beer but whether they are independent or not doesn't "resonate" with me like it does "millennials".

On the other hand, they're are guys here in this forum who own or run breweries and I can appreciate that this stuff hits closer to home than it does for me.

Then you are extremely myopic or you are just playing devil's advocate or you are fooling yourself. There is nothing wrong with a brand designating itself as independent. Just like "InBev" has designated them self as "High End" If the beer is better, then drink it! But the the consumer has the right to know what they are drinking. They have the right to know if the beer is brewed locally and they absolutely have the right to know if fair practices are involved with the distribution of the beer. I mean, come on bro. You seem a lot smarter than this.  ;)

I'll go ahead and put it out there that Wicked Weed is a fine beer. But their marketing and hype have always been better than the actual beer.
Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 02, 2017, 12:38:44 AM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.

I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

You don't have to buy the rights to the logo and you don't have to be a Brewers Association Member to use it.  All you have to do is meet the criteria set by the BA.

I misinterpreted the article then. That's my fault for not reading closely enough.

I guess I'm in the camp that says independence isn't a big deal for me. I love that some of my favorites breweries are either family owned or smaller breweries that have National distribution, but if the macros produced excellent beers I would go where the quality was. For it doesn't matter whether a macro or a craft brewer makes my beer. As long as it's good. A lot of macro beer is straight swill and so is a lot of craft beer but whether they are independent or not doesn't "resonate" with me like it does "millennials".

On the other hand, they're are guys here in this forum who own or run breweries and I can appreciate that this stuff hits closer to home than it does for me.

Then you are extremely myopic or you are just playing devil's advocate or you are fooling yourself. There is nothing wrong with a brand designating itself as independent. Just like "InBev" has designated them self as "High End" If the beer is better, then drink it! But the the consumer has the right to know what they are drinking. They have the right to know if the beer is brewed locally and they absolutely have the right to know if fair practices are involved with the distribution of the beer. I mean, come on bro. You seem a lot smarter than this.  ;)

I'll go ahead and put it out there that Wicked Weed is a fine beer. But their marketing and hype have always been better than the actual beer.

a.) I'm not "lacking imagination, foresight or intellectual insight" (myopic) (Wheaton's Law?)

b.) I've said about 3 times in this thread that I'm playing devils advocate

c.) I don't think I'm fooling myself.

d.) I never said there is anything wrong with a brewery designating itself prominently as independent, I just stated that it doesn't matter to me and that stuff doesn't "resonate" with me like the BA says it does with 81% of craft beer drinkers. Of course that's only 81% of the people who took the survey...

e.) I'm certainly smarter than you are giving me credit for. I would hope so at least.

f.) As I stated in my last paragraph above, I appreciate this is a much bigger issue for some, especially those with breweries or who work for breweries.

Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 02, 2017, 01:16:52 AM
The Trappist label says nothing about the quality, does it?
http://www.trappist.be/en/pages/trappist-beers

The Cask Marque label in the UK does.
http://cask-marque.co.uk

Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 02, 2017, 01:25:31 AM
I'd argue the Trappist label says much about the expected quality of the final product but it is also applied to far less a population of beers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 02, 2017, 01:31:21 AM
I'd argue the Trappist label says much about the expected quality of the final product but it is also applied to far less a population of beers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I was disappointed in Achel when it first came out. I was living in Germany at the time. It got better. So I stand by my statement. The rules say nothing about quality of the beer. The Monks take care of that. There are also good Abby beers, but not all of them are good.

Oh, I was disappointed in the first Spencer beers I had. They got better.
Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 02, 2017, 01:38:23 AM
I'd argue the Trappist label says much about the expected quality of the final product but it is also applied to far less a population of beers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I was disappointed in Achel when it first came out. I was living in Germany at the time. It got better. So I stand by my statement. The rules say nothing about quality of the beer. The Monks take care of that. There are also good Abby beers, but not all of them are good.

Oh, I was disappointed in the first Spencer beers I had. They got better.

Can't argue with you there Jeff. Valid points.

On the topic of the Cask Marque in the U.K.: it would be nice if we had something like that governing quality in this country.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 02, 2017, 01:41:30 AM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.

I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

You don't have to buy the rights to the logo and you don't have to be a Brewers Association Member to use it.  All you have to do is meet the criteria set by the BA.

I misinterpreted the article then. That's my fault for not reading closely enough.

I guess I'm in the camp that says independence isn't a big deal for me. I love that some of my favorites breweries are either family owned or smaller breweries that have National distribution, but if the macros produced excellent beers I would go where the quality was. For it doesn't matter whether a macro or a craft brewer makes my beer. As long as it's good. A lot of macro beer is straight swill and so is a lot of craft beer but whether they are independent or not doesn't "resonate" with me like it does "millennials".

On the other hand, they're are guys here in this forum who own or run breweries and I can appreciate that this stuff hits closer to home than it does for me.

Then you are extremely myopic or you are just playing devil's advocate or you are fooling yourself. There is nothing wrong with a brand designating itself as independent. Just like "InBev" has designated them self as "High End" If the beer is better, then drink it! But the the consumer has the right to know what they are drinking. They have the right to know if the beer is brewed locally and they absolutely have the right to know if fair practices are involved with the distribution of the beer. I mean, come on bro. You seem a lot smarter than this.  ;)

I'll go ahead and put it out there that Wicked Weed is a fine beer. But their marketing and hype have always been better than the actual beer.

a.) I'm not "lacking imagination, foresight or intellectual insight" (myopic) (Wheaton's Law?)

b.) I've said about 3 times in this thread that I'm playing devils advocate

c.) I don't think I'm fooling myself.

d.) I never said there is anything wrong with a brewery designating itself prominently as independent, I just stated that it doesn't matter to me and that stuff doesn't "resonate" with me like the BA says it does with 81% of craft beer drinkers. Of course that's only 81% of the people who took the survey...

e.) I'm certainly smarter than you are giving me credit for. I would hope so at least.

f.) As I stated in my last paragraph above, I appreciate this is a much bigger issue for some, especially those with breweries or who work for breweries.

Glad I gave you a platform to explain yourself. You are welcome! ;)
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 02, 2017, 01:47:02 AM
Derek, I personally don't think all the macro rice lagers are especially magical either. Just me. It's not a symbol of quality, it's info for the buyer to use or ignore. I see it as analagous to the Fair Trade coffee designation. Fair Trade coffee isn't necessarily better, it's just sold by companies that don't engage in unfair, predatory practices.

I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

You don't have to buy the rights to the logo and you don't have to be a Brewers Association Member to use it.  All you have to do is meet the criteria set by the BA.

I misinterpreted the article then. That's my fault for not reading closely enough.

I guess I'm in the camp that says independence isn't a big deal for me. I love that some of my favorites breweries are either family owned or smaller breweries that have National distribution, but if the macros produced excellent beers I would go where the quality was. For it doesn't matter whether a macro or a craft brewer makes my beer. As long as it's good. A lot of macro beer is straight swill and so is a lot of craft beer but whether they are independent or not doesn't "resonate" with me like it does "millennials".

On the other hand, they're are guys here in this forum who own or run breweries and I can appreciate that this stuff hits closer to home than it does for me.

Then you are extremely myopic or you are just playing devil's advocate or you are fooling yourself. There is nothing wrong with a brand designating itself as independent. Just like "InBev" has designated them self as "High End" If the beer is better, then drink it! But the the consumer has the right to know what they are drinking. They have the right to know if the beer is brewed locally and they absolutely have the right to know if fair practices are involved with the distribution of the beer. I mean, come on bro. You seem a lot smarter than this.  ;)

I'll go ahead and put it out there that Wicked Weed is a fine beer. But their marketing and hype have always been better than the actual beer.

a.) I'm not "lacking imagination, foresight or intellectual insight" (myopic) (Wheaton's Law?)

b.) I've said about 3 times in this thread that I'm playing devils advocate

c.) I don't think I'm fooling myself.

d.) I never said there is anything wrong with a brewery designating itself prominently as independent, I just stated that it doesn't matter to me and that stuff doesn't "resonate" with me like the BA says it does with 81% of craft beer drinkers. Of course that's only 81% of the people who took the survey...

e.) I'm certainly smarter than you are giving me credit for. I would hope so at least.

f.) As I stated in my last paragraph above, I appreciate this is a much bigger issue for some, especially those with breweries or who work for breweries.

Glad I gave you a platform to explain yourself. You are welcome! ;)

So glad such a gracious moderator allowed me to redeem myself. I lacked the imagination, foresight and intellectual insight to do it on my own.
Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: tommymorris on July 02, 2017, 01:49:09 AM
I will appreciate when the new logo is rolled out and widely used. The macros are buying so many breweries it is hard to remember who is independent.

Why do I care? Because the macros have unfair business practices and I prefer to take my money elsewhere.

Regarding what mark consumers can use as a signal of quality versus non-quality; that's the brewery's name and logo. As a consumer you learn who has beer (or any other product) you do and don't like.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Stevie on July 02, 2017, 02:05:33 AM
Yeah, 81% of craft drinkers must be a skewed sample. If that many cared, macro wouldn't continue to hold 80%+ of he market.

Unfortunately people will place an expected quality bias on the label. Nothing the BA can do about that.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 02, 2017, 02:11:37 AM
I'd argue the Trappist label says much about the expected quality of the final product but it is also applied to far less a population of beers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I was disappointed in Achel when it first came out. I was living in Germany at the time. It got better. So I stand by my statement. The rules say nothing about quality of the beer. The Monks take care of that. There are also good Abby beers, but not all of them are good.

Oh, I was disappointed in the first Spencer beers I had. They got better.

Can't argue with you there Jeff. Valid points.

On the topic of the Cask Marque in the U.K.: it would be nice if we had something like that governing quality in this country.
I had a lengthy conversation with a Chicago guy I know at HBC, and he is a well known Cask expert. We were setting in Brits Pub in Minneapolis. The Fullers was very nice, but not cask, from kegs through fake handpumps. His new venture is being a Cask Marque inspector in the US, and he handed me his card. US British pubs are not his target, but brewpubs and breweries that do cask beers. That is where he can improve quality of the Ales being served. Thought it was pretty cool.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: dbeechum on July 02, 2017, 05:40:35 AM
I had a lengthy conversation with a Chicago guy I know at HBC, and he is a well known Cask expert. We were setting in Brits Pub in Minneapolis. The Fullers was very nice, but not cask, from kegs through fake handpumps. His new venture is being a Cask Marque inspector in the US, and he handed me his card. US British pubs are not his target, but brewpubs and breweries that do cask beers. That is where he can improve quality of the Ales being served. Thought it was pretty cool.

The fuller's thing always makes me disappointed, but the beers at Brits were top notch.

Also, I kinda sorta serve as a roving second inspector for LA. (K, we only have one place so far, but you know how that goes. :) )
Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: BrewBama on July 02, 2017, 12:07:43 PM
Like a locally owned and operated restaurant (and especially farm to table), If given the choice where quality and taste were equal, I'd choose the beer with the BA independent mark over the big beer offering. I go to local hardware and lumber stores over Walmart, Lowes, and Home Depot for the same reason. My favorite pizza is a local joint for the same reason (it just happens to be next to a local brewery). Etc. etc. I want my dollars to support the independents. This mark helps me make an informed choice.


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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: pete b on July 02, 2017, 12:41:57 PM
I haven't seen anyone make the point that is to me the main point: the big players who are buying these craft breweries are actively disguising the fact that these are no longer independently owned breweries. Since the BA can't force inbev etc to be truthful they can take this action. It's a smart way to fight back against predatory behavior.
On another note I'm a little sick of bashing millennials. I am not one by my son and step son and nieces and nephews are. They have it harder in all the ways that matter than any post WW2 generation. Unless you come from wealth you have practically no chance of getting a degree without a bunch of debt and the market for good jobs is tight. Add to that the fact that if you don't have a very good job that pays 100% for health insurance your health insurance is about to be replaced with declaring bankruptcy if you get in a car accident or sick. If you want to talk about a generation that had it easy try the baby boomers: cheap to free education, plentiful good jobs, even with a high school diploma or less, affordable housing, ordinary factory jobs paying good pensions, robust labor unions, and an effective safety net. Now they are sucking up social services, have good public health insurance, and getting social security all paid for by millennials.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 02, 2017, 01:32:23 PM
A friend who did video production in his previous career commented on how much they spent on this. 2 HD Cameras, boom mics, professional lighting, and so on. All of the Brewers were in the same place, one would think. Editing still has to be done, and there was not much time between the BA announcement and the video release, more dollars. His take on this was it was something that ABInBev felt they had to spend the big dollars on to do this.

Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 02, 2017, 02:39:34 PM
Yeah, 81% of craft drinkers must be a skewed sample. If that many cared, macro wouldn't continue to hold 80%+ of he market.

Unfortunately people will place an expected quality bias on the label. Nothing the BA can do about that.

There should be no expectation of quality just because a label is designated as "independent". In my state we have a "Made in Alabama" logo that is obviously just there to inform people. It doesn't give any expectation of quality. But it does inform the consumer that is was locally made and, heck, I might spend an extra buck or two on a product I know was made in my state.

It is so obvious that this label will be very effective considering "High Ends" response. I just love it! I am so tickled to see their response video getting ridiculed across the internet. It's absolutely lovely.
Title: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Stevie on July 02, 2017, 02:42:16 PM
I agree, but people will. Same as is done with organic or free trade as mentioned earlier. The mark is going to mean this to some, can't stop that unless the BA changes it to read "independently owned, but could certainly be crap"
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 02, 2017, 03:12:48 PM
I agree, but people will. Same as is done with organic or free trade as mentioned earlier. The mark is going to mean this to some, can't stop that unless the BA changes it to read "independently owned, but could certainly be crap"

True. Organic doesn't necessarily mean better. But it still gives the consumer a little extra nugget of knowledge that may be useful to them. And if it gives the impression a beer is better, well, that's just marketing after all. Like I said, I think Wicked Weed's beers are fine. But it is their marketing that is really the impressive factor.

I used to stick up for the people who sold out but after watching that ridiculous video I have really changed my tune. Don't get me wrong, I'd still take the money. But I hope I wouldn't also compromise my integrity by making a winey-ass cry baby video the moment something doesn't go my way.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: denny on July 02, 2017, 03:17:37 PM
They are all repeating what they told themselves when they sold out!

If i am on the fence between 2 beers and one has the bottle and the other doesn't, i am going with the beer that shows the bottle.

And if the one with the bottle tastes like crap? What then?

There is a lot of bad craft beer out there. That doesn't mean I want to see good ones go down the tubes but a label isn't going to solve this issue.

The label isn't meant to solve that problem.  It has nothing to do with indicating the quality of the beer.  It's just a piece of information.  What you do with that information is up to you.

What's the point then? To identify independently made beer that is good and bad?

To identify independently made beer.  The quality judgement is up to the consumer.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: denny on July 02, 2017, 03:19:05 PM
I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

The right to use the symbol is free.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 02, 2017, 03:19:52 PM
I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

The right to use the symbol is free.

You're about a day late Denny!
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: denny on July 02, 2017, 03:21:09 PM
I'd argue the Trappist label says much about the expected quality of the final product but it is also applied to far less a population of beers.


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But you put that expectation there yourself.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: tommymorris on July 02, 2017, 04:04:07 PM
I am a beer aficionado (relative to most consumers) who learned about this new label the day it was introduced and I will look for it on beer labels.

Most consumers will see this label for the first time on a bottle in a store. I expect BMC to respond with other labeling and advertising that confuses the issue and confuses the consumer. That's how they roll.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Steve Ruch on July 02, 2017, 04:09:08 PM
Want to make sure that you're buying beer from a brewery that isn't owned by Inbev? Patronize the local brewpub that is too small for the big boys to give a second look.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on July 02, 2017, 04:12:33 PM
They are all repeating what they told themselves when they sold out!

If i am on the fence between 2 beers and one has the bottle and the other doesn't, i am going with the beer that shows the bottle.

And if the one with the bottle tastes like crap? What then?

There is a lot of bad craft beer out there. That doesn't mean I want to see good ones go down the tubes but a label isn't going to solve this issue.

This might be a little bit off topic but notion that because I am a small brewery = I make bad beer is offensive to me.

I have heard it first time last year by owner of Summit Brewing. He said if small brewery does not have expensive lab, then we are making bad beer.

At that time I took it as a cheap shot at us to say that bigger brewers are making better quality beers then smaller brewers.

If you like my beer or do not like my beer is matter of personal preference.

How financially successful my beers are is matter of marketing and branding offer.

Just because you do not like my beer, it does not mean my beer is bad quality. 

So bring it back home. The BA mark of independent brewery does not guarantee that you will like the beer nor it will tell you how commercially viable this brand is.




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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Visor on July 02, 2017, 05:32:08 PM
   I don't see the label as an attempt to suggest that beers carrying it are qualitatively superior to ones lacking it, but as Denny said, it is just another piece of information about the product that either means something to you, or it doesn't. I, as a rule, buy American whenever I can, and I greatly appreciate laws that require Nation of Origin labeling, I feel it is my right to know where the merchandise I purchase comes from. Carrying that over to beer, it will be good that now, when I do buy beer, I can tell instantly whether the beer I'm looking at is independent or a wolf in sheep's clothing, without having to keep a list of sold out breweries on my person. I don't buy much packaged beer anymore as I can no longer find what I want because it has all been replaced by macro stuff, and because the beer I brew is more to my liking than most of what is available to purchase.
   Many consumers don't care who makes the beer they like, and they'll continue buying it with or without this label. Many others do care and knowing whether a particular beer is indy or macro may play a part in their decision on which beer to purchase. The only ones who will be harmed by this label are the former crafts that did sell out because now some of their customers who do care about the ownership status of the breweries they support will switch to buying other beers.
   Regarding Jeff's comment about the speed with which a professionally made video was produced and released, I kind of noticed that myself, and wondered how AB managed to get all those brewers to one location to film in that short time frame. You don't suppose that this little label really is a big deal to them? 
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 02, 2017, 07:38:29 PM
I expect BMC to respond with other labeling and advertising that confuses the issue and confuses the consumer. That's how they roll.

Exactly. I see a very similar looking logo on ABI bought breweries on the horizon, to test the BA's will and financial ability to challenge in court.


I haven't seen anyone make the point that is to me the main point: the big players who are buying these craft breweries are actively disguising the fact that these are no longer independently owned breweries. Since the BA
can't force inbev etc to be truthful they can take this action. It's a smart way to fight back against predatory behavior.

I agree.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Bilsch on July 02, 2017, 10:52:22 PM
I'd like to support my local breweries but most are terrible. They sell a lot of beer, in my opinion, because they are local and not because they are higher quality or taste better. This all feels vaguely similar to the 80's when we were all told to buy American cars.. because well, they were American made. The problem was the quality of said vehicles were crap. The imports coming in from Japan were so much better and the value was undeniable. Eventually car companies had to either get their act together or go the way of the dinosaur, which they arguably did. It's my feeling if we support breweries based on criteria other then that.. we are enabling them to mediocrity. I want the beer I drink to be of high quality and taste good. I could give a rats ass how big the brewery is.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Visor on July 02, 2017, 11:16:37 PM
  At risk of going off topic, I know the official post mortem on 80's era vehicles is the one you so eloquently stated, in this galactic backwater though there are almost no rice rockets from the 80's still licensed and being driven, still a hell of a lot of American iron rolling up and down the roads though. I apologize for the side track , but sometimes I feel another view needs to be presented.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: pete b on July 02, 2017, 11:33:42 PM
I'd like to support my local breweries but most are terrible. They sell a lot of beer, in my opinion, because they are local and not because they are higher quality or taste better. This all feels vaguely similar to the 80's when we were all told to buy American cars.. because well, they were American made. The problem was the quality of said vehicles were crap. The imports coming in from Japan were so much better and the value was undeniable. Eventually car companies had to either get their act together or go the way of the dinosaur, which they arguably did. It's my feeling if we support breweries based on criteria other then that.. we are enabling them to mediocrity. I want the beer I drink to be of high quality and taste good. I could give a rats ass how big the brewery is.
It's nothing to do with local, it's about independently owned and about the big guys business practices. I understand that there are small breweries that make crappie beer but there are many small breweries that make good to world best beers. If you cannot access good beer from independent breweries then guess what? It's because in inbev and others take over the store shelves.

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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Bilsch on July 03, 2017, 12:30:25 AM
I don't condone monopolistic policies that limit shelf space to any product and the fact that BMC does that is not right. Also pushing the word craft feels disingenuous to me because it is not synonymous with actual quality. I will drink product from any brewer who makes good quality beer. Unfortunately the shelves in my local stores are 50% bmc and 49% craft and 1% terribly old and damaged imports. I feel screwed all the way round.

Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: pete b on July 03, 2017, 01:00:04 AM
Agreed that the word craft is used and abused. When a store nearby carries mostly bmc I don't frequent them. When they are obviously trying to carry good beer I compliment them, come back a lot, and often become aquainted with the owner and make suggestions.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 03, 2017, 01:15:26 AM
I see it as more of an independent vs predatory business tactic declaration. Totally fair. Quality is always subjective and not the big point here IMO.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: 69franx on July 03, 2017, 02:05:26 AM
As an example of sneaky maneuvers, just back across the state line into Ohio, a closed down beverage drive through has reopened. They are announcing it with banners printed with budweiser 3x across the bottom of the banners. I have to imagine that the local distributor printed them for the drive through free if charge, and at least when I was in the business, that was against the law. It happens, but it usually only happens with the inbev family, no craft brewery can afford to do this, or to skirt the law so blatantly. Just another data point and viewpoint.

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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: denny on July 03, 2017, 01:45:53 PM
I don't condone monopolistic policies that limit shelf space to any product and the fact that BMC does that is not right. Also pushing the word craft feels disingenuous to me because it is not synonymous with actual quality. I will drink product from any brewer who makes good quality beer. Unfortunately the shelves in my local stores are 50% bmc and 49% craft and 1% terribly old and damaged imports. I feel screwed all the way round.

Keep in mind the wrod "craft" doesn't figure into the seal.  It's about independent breweries.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: denny on July 03, 2017, 01:46:38 PM
I hear you Jon. I'm not sticking up for macro beer here. I'm just saying that they should call it what it is. If you need to engage in psychological warfare to combat the dirty tactics of the big boys then so be it. Call it that though.

All this symbol says is that an independent brewer had the money to buy the rights to the symbol, and that's fine, but it's also a detriment to the truly unique and high quality craft beers out there.

I'm not on a side here. I drink all kinds of beer and homebrew. I'm just playing devils advocate for each point.

The right to use the symbol is free.

You're about a day late Denny!

Story of my life, Derek!
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: ethinson on July 03, 2017, 02:01:57 PM
I don't condone monopolistic policies that limit shelf space to any product and the fact that BMC does that is not right. Also pushing the word craft feels disingenuous to me because it is not synonymous with actual quality. I will drink product from any brewer who makes good quality beer. Unfortunately the shelves in my local stores are 50% bmc and 49% craft and 1% terribly old and damaged imports. I feel screwed all the way round.

Keep in mind the word "craft" doesn't figure into the seal.  It's about independent breweries.

Yes, but the people eligible to use it will be the BA "Craft" list... and this is the problem I have with the BA Craft designation.  They've pushed out any other requirement (local, volume, community) etc and the only thing that matters now is ownership. Not the beer itself, not even the brewery itself.  They keep bumping up the volume limits to include Boston Beer, and then last year they added Yuengling to the list as automatic #1.  SA is distributed nationwide and Yuengling is in 12-15 states.  SA does a whole lot of the stuff we accuse AB InBev of doing but it's OK cause they are craft.  18 SKUs in the grocery store, production of non beer alcopops and flavored malt beverages, advertising at the super bowl that no one else can afford etc etc.  Yuengling on the other hand makes all of two beers... Beer and Beer Light... (and a handful of seasonals).

Just my personal opinion, and it's been an unpopular one, but Sam Adams and Yuengling aren't craft.  If you're going to label huge industrial mass market beer producers (sound familiar?) as craft, than the whole designation is meaningless.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 03, 2017, 03:58:26 PM
I don't condone monopolistic policies that limit shelf space to any product and the fact that BMC does that is not right. Also pushing the word craft feels disingenuous to me because it is not synonymous with actual quality. I will drink product from any brewer who makes good quality beer. Unfortunately the shelves in my local stores are 50% bmc and 49% craft and 1% terribly old and damaged imports. I feel screwed all the way round.

Keep in mind the word "craft" doesn't figure into the seal.  It's about independent breweries.

Yes, but the people eligible to use it will be the BA "Craft" list... and this is the problem I have with the BA Craft designation.  They've pushed out any other requirement (local, volume, community) etc and the only thing that matters now is ownership. Not the beer itself, not even the brewery itself.  They keep bumping up the volume limits to include Boston Beer, and then last year they added Yuengling to the list as automatic #1.  SA is distributed nationwide and Yuengling is in 12-15 states.  SA does a whole lot of the stuff we accuse AB InBev of doing but it's OK cause they are craft.  18 SKUs in the grocery store, production of non beer alcopops and flavored malt beverages, advertising at the super bowl that no one else can afford etc etc.  Yuengling on the other hand makes all of two beers... Beer and Beer Light... (and a handful of seasonals).

Just my personal opinion, and it's been an unpopular one, but Sam Adams and Yuengling aren't craft.  If you're going to label huge industrial mass market beer producers (sound familiar?) as craft, than the whole designation is meaningless.
The limit was raised once.

Yuengling hosted a First Round NHC site in Tampa this year, which was a good thing in my book.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: dmtaylor on July 03, 2017, 04:48:00 PM
I'd like to support my local breweries but most are terrible. They sell a lot of beer, in my opinion, because they are local and not because they are higher quality or taste better. This all feels vaguely similar to the 80's when we were all told to buy American cars.. because well, they were American made. The problem was the quality of said vehicles were crap. The imports coming in from Japan were so much better and the value was undeniable. Eventually car companies had to either get their act together or go the way of the dinosaur, which they arguably did. It's my feeling if we support breweries based on criteria other then that.. we are enabling them to mediocrity. I want the beer I drink to be of high quality and taste good. I could give a rats ass how big the brewery is.

+1  Beer quality for the win!
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Wilbur on July 03, 2017, 06:52:12 PM
I'm pretty happy to see this, although unless it get's integrated into tap handles, I don't see a huge impact. Honestly, when I was in San Diego this last weekend I was blown away by the beer selection. Unless I was at a brewery, selection was pretty standard-Ballast point, Elysian, 10 Barrel, Golden Road, Corona, & Domestics. Some great beers there, but I can completely support some of the smaller guys in trying to get some tap space. Anything you can do to help distinguish yourself.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: narvin on July 03, 2017, 09:56:18 PM
I'm pretty happy to see this, although unless it get's integrated into tap handles, I don't see a huge impact. Honestly, when I was in San Diego this last weekend I was blown away by the beer selection. Unless I was at a brewery, selection was pretty standard-Ballast point, Elysian, 10 Barrel, Golden Road, Corona, & Domestics. Some great beers there, but I can completely support some of the smaller guys in trying to get some tap space. Anything you can do to help distinguish yourself.

Intentional satire here?  Ballast Point is owned by Corona's parent and the other three are all High End (Inbev).
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Visor on July 03, 2017, 10:32:23 PM
   I believe that was Wilbur's point, unless he was in a brewery all that was available was macro owned.
   Ethinson makes some valid points, particularly about SA having enough muscle to force the other indies out, I'd personally rather drink something from a large indy that's 300 miles away, than beer from one that's 1,500 miles away, especially when it is better beer.
   That being said, I still think the label is a net positive, it is a matter of informed freedom of choice.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Wilbur on July 04, 2017, 04:46:11 PM
Yeah, that was the point. Finally watched the video, a lot of BS on there.

-"If you're truly independent, you won't use the logo." Seems a little convoluted, I don't equate beer with punk rock.

I don't get the other part, of needing to band together to fight wine and spirits. Is say domestics are a bigger threat to craft, wine, and spirits than the rest. Anyway, I think expansion of mega breweries decreases diversity overall. There are some places that may not have carried craft without the bud sales rep throwing some goose or 10 barrel at them, but these places aren't stocking be or innovative beers anyway. The high end keeps crying about innovation, but the beers they're pushing out are innovative. They're good beers, but it ends up stocking the taps with the same sculpin, Spacedust, etc. I'd take a red ale froma place I've never tried over another Lagunitas IPA or goose island green line.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: 69franx on July 04, 2017, 04:56:56 PM
Well said Wilbur

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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Phil_M on July 04, 2017, 05:06:37 PM
To a certain extent, innovation is parting of the growing issue with craft beer. Too many breweries are trying extreme beers before they have the basics worked out. I can count on one hand the available and good "drinking" craft beer in my area. Sadly, I know many who drink only BMC since the alcohol content of the average craft beer doesn't let you drink more than one or two. Nobody in their right mind wants to get s***faced, but with most craft beer you can't drink a case with your buddies without that happening.

It's like craft beer has forgotten is roots, we're so busy trying to push the boundaries and be new we've forgotten all the great beers we've made along the way. I blame the American attention span for much of this.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: denny on July 04, 2017, 05:08:49 PM
To a certain extent, innovation is parting of the growing issue with craft beer. Too many breweries are trying extreme beers before they have the basics worked out. I can count on one hand the available and good "drinking" craft beer in my area. Sadly, I know many who drink only BMC since the alcohol content of the average craft beer doesn't let you drink more than one or two. Nobody in their right mind wants to get s***faced, but with most craft beer you can't drink a case with your buddies without that happening.

It's like craft beer has forgotten is roots, we're so busy trying to push the boundaries and be new we've forgotten all the great beers we've made along the way. I blame the American attention span for much of this.

(http://www.gifdivision.com/uploads/4/6/0/3/46032175/12_-_3arp0tf.gif)
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: narvin on July 04, 2017, 06:18:44 PM
I know (or knew) a lot of people who drink BMC to get s***faced.  They want to be blackout drunk by the 4th quarter of the game, not the second :-)

I remember San Diego having a good selection everywjere two years ago, but maybe I was only going to "beer bars".  I can see how the average bar or restaurant would have more beers from the big guys.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Visor on July 04, 2017, 11:53:05 PM
   I too am getting more than a bit weary with all the fad beers that keep pushing the envelope for weirdness, but if that's what others want to buy right now, who am I to question their motives, or lemming-like nature. It is far easier to hide shortcomings with process if you load your beer down with enough stuff. About a year ago I found a few surviving bottles from my previous foray into homebrewing over 30 years ago, the bottles of stout were not only still drinkable, but not too bad, the lagers and pale ales were about what you'd expect. Jack up the hops level, or add a load pomegranate/mango/watermelon/ cayenne flavors and no-one will even notice the DMS or oxidation.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 06, 2017, 12:42:12 PM
I'd like to support my local breweries but most are terrible. They sell a lot of beer, in my opinion, because they are local and not because they are higher quality or taste better. This all feels vaguely similar to the 80's when we were all told to buy American cars.. because well, they were American made. The problem was the quality of said vehicles were crap. The imports coming in from Japan were so much better and the value was undeniable. Eventually car companies had to either get their act together or go the way of the dinosaur, which they arguably did. It's my feeling if we support breweries based on criteria other then that.. we are enabling them to mediocrity. I want the beer I drink to be of high quality and taste good. I could give a rats ass how big the brewery is.

Unfortunately there is a lot of crap out there. There are times when I have opted for a Yuengling Lager over other local beers because I at least knew what I could expect from a Yuengling. I have also been dismayed a few times when I have picked my own beer up on the shelf and seen that it was 6 months old and way pasts its prime (when I see that I generally buy all of it off the shelf to get rid of it.)

It often amazes me at the crap people will drink, too. I've sat with friends and shared a six pack of diacetyl bomb local crap that I had to pour out but the 6 pack disappeared down people's bellies anyway..

But that will all work itself out in time. The bad breweries will start to disappear and the good breweries will get even better. Knowing that you are drinking beer from an Independent brewery doesn't make the beer tastes any better, but it does give you something to think about on how to spend your money. As in the case with Yuengling - I always choose to support an independent brewery.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 06, 2017, 04:17:11 PM
I am fairly ambivalent about the craft acquisitions but that video was just the worst from start to finish. I can understand brewery owners taking the money and running but to become mouthpieces for that kind of garbage argument is quite different IMO.

I don't think a label announcing independent ownership will make a huge difference but it is the first in what I hope is a long line of the BA leading craft breweries to organize in the market. It's the only way they will effectively compete against the large brewing companies.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Slowbrew on July 06, 2017, 07:22:22 PM
I have to guess the sales agreement all those breweries signed requires them to make these kinds of communication devices.  People can be pushed to do and say a lot of things when enough money is in play.

To me it looks like the big boys trying to establish what the logo means in the minds of the public. 

I was out of the country for the past 3 weeks so this is all news to me yesterday and today.  What I've read has never made any claims of quality concerning what's in the bottle.  All it seemed to indicate was, if you care about local/craft beer and you don't like the way the macros do business, this little up-side-down bottle lets you know the beer you are looking at is not owned by a conglomerate you may not wish to support.  Period.

The sales numbers on the macro brewers have been looking worse every year for a long time and I don't think wine and spirits have been driving that.  Yes, wine and spirits have increased their market share but that is within an overall increase in alcohol consumption in general.  If you owned a market and suddenly your numbers are dropping while everyone else's numbers are rising you can't blame that on a small trade organization with a minimal budget, out yelling your multi-million $$ monthly add campaign.

It is sad to see brewers who came from the same places we did suddenly sandbagging their roots.  It doesn't make me think the big boys are even thinking about how things have actually changed yet.  They are still in denial.  Only 6 more stages to go.   8)

Paul
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: riceral on July 06, 2017, 08:26:21 PM
Then there's the response to the response:

https://www.facebook.com/reaverbeach/videos/1714327015261312/?autoplay_reason=gatekeeper&video_container_type=0&video_creator_product_type=2&app_id=2392950137&live_video_guests=0

Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: BrewBama on July 06, 2017, 10:14:36 PM
Bah ha ha ha ha. OMG!!!!!


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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: 69franx on July 06, 2017, 10:18:02 PM
Saw that last night, just awesome

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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: ethinson on July 07, 2017, 05:33:32 PM
I was out of the country for the past 3 weeks so this is all news to me yesterday and today.  What I've read has never made any claims of quality concerning what's in the bottle.  All it seemed to indicate was, if you care about local/craft beer and you don't like the way the macros do business, this little up-side-down bottle lets you know the beer you are looking at is not owned by a conglomerate you may not wish to support.  Period.

Paul

This is all well and good for those of us who are deep into the industry, but as always these moves are made for the "rest of the world" who don't care as much where the stuff in the can comes from. 

As with most things that go on a label, as several people have mentioned above, there will be an implied quality statement with the logo.  That's just how food labels work.  I'm a food scientist and there's a lot of stuff that goes on food labels and of course if it goes on a label it must be important right? That's how people's brains work.  The FDA doesn't regulate beer labels yet, but it's coming very soon.  We're already having to work on calories and nutrition facts labels. 

There's a lot of stuff out there that have nothing to do with quality, but crafty advertisers or just human intellect of "this must be different and special" turns into quality statements.  For example, if I say the words Black Angus, what do you think? Most people are going to think about a fancy downtown steakhouse like Ruth's Chris. Black Angus is a breed of cattle.  Not a quality designation.  There are three grades of meat, Select, Choice and Prime.  Choice is what you get in the grocery store, Prime is what you get in Ruth's Chris, but they are both still Black Angus.  When Hardees/Carl's Jr is advertising Angus Burgers they are banking on most people equating that with expensive steak.  Are they using Prime beef? Hell no, they are using Choice (or even Select) but people equate Angus with Prime. 

The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Stevie on July 07, 2017, 06:07:07 PM
I was out of the country for the past 3 weeks so this is all news to me yesterday and today.  What I've read has never made any claims of quality concerning what's in the bottle.  All it seemed to indicate was, if you care about local/craft beer and you don't like the way the macros do business, this little up-side-down bottle lets you know the beer you are looking at is not owned by a conglomerate you may not wish to support.  Period.

Paul

This is all well and good for those of us who are deep into the industry, but as always these moves are made for the "rest of the world" who don't care as much where the stuff in the can comes from. 

As with most things that go on a label, as several people have mentioned above, there will be an implied quality statement with the logo.  That's just how food labels work.  I'm a food scientist and there's a lot of stuff that goes on food labels and of course if it goes on a label it must be important right? That's how people's brains work.  The FDA doesn't regulate beer labels yet, but it's coming very soon.  We're already having to work on calories and nutrition facts labels. 

There's a lot of stuff out there that have nothing to do with quality, but crafty advertisers or just human intellect of "this must be different and special" turns into quality statements.  For example, if I say the words Black Angus, what do you think? Most people are going to think about a fancy downtown steakhouse like Ruth's Chris. Black Angus is a breed of cattle.  Not a quality designation.  There are three grades of meat, Select, Choice and Prime.  Choice is what you get in the grocery store, Prime is what you get in Ruth's Chris, but they are both still Black Angus.  When Hardees/Carl's Jr is advertising Angus Burgers they are banking on most people equating that with expensive steak.  Are they using Prime beef? Hell no, they are using Choice (or even Select) but people equate Angus with Prime. 

The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.
+100
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: narvin on July 07, 2017, 09:54:07 PM

This is all well and good for those of us who are deep into the industry, but as always these moves are made for the "rest of the world" who don't care as much where the stuff in the can comes from. 

As with most things that go on a label, as several people have mentioned above, there will be an implied quality statement with the logo.  That's just how food labels work.  I'm a food scientist and there's a lot of stuff that goes on food labels and of course if it goes on a label it must be important right? That's how people's brains work.  The FDA doesn't regulate beer labels yet, but it's coming very soon.  We're already having to work on calories and nutrition facts labels. 

There's a lot of stuff out there that have nothing to do with quality, but crafty advertisers or just human intellect of "this must be different and special" turns into quality statements.  For example, if I say the words Black Angus, what do you think? Most people are going to think about a fancy downtown steakhouse like Ruth's Chris. Black Angus is a breed of cattle.  Not a quality designation.  There are three grades of meat, Select, Choice and Prime.  Choice is what you get in the grocery store, Prime is what you get in Ruth's Chris, but they are both still Black Angus.  When Hardees/Carl's Jr is advertising Angus Burgers they are banking on most people equating that with expensive steak.  Are they using Prime beef? Hell no, they are using Choice (or even Select) but people equate Angus with Prime. 

The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.

Eh, the BA didn't start this war.  The only thing they're doing is pointing out that the advertising message coming directly from the big crafty brewers is half-truth, at best.  More power to them.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 07, 2017, 10:21:50 PM

This is all well and good for those of us who are deep into the industry, but as always these moves are made for the "rest of the world" who don't care as much where the stuff in the can comes from. 

As with most things that go on a label, as several people have mentioned above, there will be an implied quality statement with the logo.  That's just how food labels work.  I'm a food scientist and there's a lot of stuff that goes on food labels and of course if it goes on a label it must be important right? That's how people's brains work.  The FDA doesn't regulate beer labels yet, but it's coming very soon.  We're already having to work on calories and nutrition facts labels. 

There's a lot of stuff out there that have nothing to do with quality, but crafty advertisers or just human intellect of "this must be different and special" turns into quality statements.  For example, if I say the words Black Angus, what do you think? Most people are going to think about a fancy downtown steakhouse like Ruth's Chris. Black Angus is a breed of cattle.  Not a quality designation.  There are three grades of meat, Select, Choice and Prime.  Choice is what you get in the grocery store, Prime is what you get in Ruth's Chris, but they are both still Black Angus.  When Hardees/Carl's Jr is advertising Angus Burgers they are banking on most people equating that with expensive steak.  Are they using Prime beef? Hell no, they are using Choice (or even Select) but people equate Angus with Prime. 

The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.

Eh, the BA didn't start this war.  The only thing they're doing is pointing out that the advertising message coming directly from the big crafty brewers is half-truth, at best.  More power to them.


This, big time - to both these trains of thought.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 08, 2017, 01:44:19 PM
Then there's the response to the response:

https://www.facebook.com/reaverbeach/videos/1714327015261312/?autoplay_reason=gatekeeper&video_container_type=0&video_creator_product_type=2&app_id=2392950137&live_video_guests=0

Bwahahahaha! The Deep End FTW!
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 08, 2017, 02:09:21 PM


The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.

While I respect your profession as a food scientist and I agree with the "Angus Beef" argument (*to a point) you are only looking at this from one side of the coin and here is exactly why you are wrong: Big Beer is trying to make itself look like Craft. Even Wal Mart has gotten into the act making a beer brand that tricks the consumer into thinking they are drinking a craft beer and not clearly making a delineation that the beer is actually contract brewed by Wal Mart (for instance, Costco Does contract brews as well but it's under the "Kirkland" brand).

So, what you are basically saying is: you would prefer big money and big corporations to keep the consumer in the dark and you are fine with people being lead along like sheep with advertising, but a piece of information that lets people know they are drinking from a struggling independent brewery is a sham?

In the end, it's up to the consumer to educate themselves. There is no indication of quality by the BA logo but it does give you a piece of information that is valuable to both the consumer AND the business. It gives CRAFT breweries a way to separate themselves from "CRAFTY" brewing and big beer marketing.

*And, FTR, the difference between the "Angus Beef" label and the "BA" label is that the "Angus Beef" label is open to anyone whno buys Angus Beef. McDonald's has an Angus Beef burger. If McDonalds started opening up little hole-in-the wall BBQ places around the corner from your house, wouldn't you like to know? I sure would.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: ethinson on July 08, 2017, 02:46:25 PM


The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.

While I respect your profession as a food scientist and I agree with the "Angus Beef" argument (*to a point) you are only looking at this from one side of the coin and here is exactly why you are wrong: Big Beer is trying to make itself look like Craft. Even Wal Mart has gotten into the act making a beer brand that tricks the consumer into thinking they are drinking a craft beer and not clearly making a delineation that the beer is actually contract brewed by Wal Mart (for instance, Costco Does contract brews as well but it's under the "Kirkland" brand).

So, what you are basically saying is: you would prefer big money and big corporations to keep the consumer in the dark and you are fine with people being lead along like sheep with advertising, but a piece of information that lets people know they are drinking from a struggling independent brewery is a sham?

In the end, it's up to the consumer to educate themselves. There is no indication of quality by the BA logo but it does give you a piece of information that is valuable to both the consumer AND the business. It gives CRAFT breweries a way to separate themselves from "CRAFTY" brewing and big beer marketing.

*And, FTR, the difference between the "Angus Beef" label and the "BA" label is that the "Angus Beef" label is open to anyone whno buys Angus Beef. McDonald's has an Angus Beef burger. If McDonalds started opening up little hole-in-the wall BBQ places around the corner from your house, wouldn't you like to know? I sure would.

I'm not saying that's what I prefer.  I'm saying that the logo doesn't accomplish what we want it to or what we think it will. 

The fight between small beer and big beer is very real.  That's a business thing. Monopolies and whatnot.

The fight between craft and non-craft is nonsensical and hypocritical and based on emontions and hurts craft more than it helps craft. Non craft drinkers are portrayed as dumb oafish neanderthals while craft drinkers are portrayed as elitist snobby hipsters.  Yes, those are both the far extremes but that's what's getting painted in these videos and super bowl commercials and we're all getting caught in those same brushstrokes.

Just my .02$.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: narvin on July 08, 2017, 03:01:21 PM

I'm not saying that's what I prefer.  I'm saying that the logo doesn't accomplish what we want it to or what we think it will. 

The fight between small beer and big beer is very real.  That's a business thing. Monopolies and whatnot.

The fight between craft and non-craft is nonsensical and hypocritical and based on emontions and hurts craft more than it helps craft. Non craft drinkers are portrayed as dumb oafish neanderthals while craft drinkers are portrayed as elitist snobby hipsters.  Yes, those are both the far extremes but that's what's getting painted in these videos and super bowl commercials and we're all getting caught in those same brushstrokes.

Just my .02$.

That really has nothing to do with this logo. Again, it was AB Inbev that first made a commercial about making beer "the hard way" that wasn't fussy.  Now they want to buy craft brewers but hide the fact that they did, for their marketing purposes.

Craft has the connotation of small and has for a while, for better or for worse.  That ship has sailed.  This is just about a little bit of truth in advertising for all the Redd's Apple Ales, Shock Tops, and now Golden Road, etc.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: narvin on July 08, 2017, 03:10:15 PM
And, I'm pretty sure Yuengling would be free to use the logo if they wanted.  Not craft, just independent.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: JJeffers09 on July 08, 2017, 03:45:57 PM
This is certainly the best thing I have seen.  It matters to me, I can't wait to see that seal on the bottles I do purchase.  I am a part of the 81%
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: denny on July 08, 2017, 03:55:32 PM
And, I'm pretty sure Yuengling would be free to use the logo if they wanted.  Not craft, just independent.

As long as they produce less than 6 million bbl./year, they certainly could.  https://www.brewersassociation.org/business-tools/marketing-advertising/independent-craft-brewer-seal/
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Wilbur on July 08, 2017, 04:15:14 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuengling

They produce 2.8 million barrels, so they have plenty of room to grow.

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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 08, 2017, 04:20:31 PM

The fight between craft and non-craft is nonsensical and hypocritical and based on emontions and hurts craft more than it helps craft. Non craft drinkers are portrayed as dumb oafish neanderthals while craft drinkers are portrayed as elitist snobby hipsters.  Yes, those are both the far extremes but that's what's getting painted in these videos and super bowl commercials and we're all getting caught in those same brushstrokes.

Just my .02$.

I don't totally disagree with you here but like Narvin I don't see this to have anything to do with logo. I will say that, in Huntsville, AL, I see a wide array of people from all walks of life in my tap room. From hipsters, to country folk to corporate professionals and families. Craft beer is reaching people in all walks of life, the "bearded-tattoo-hipster" thing is something InBev is trying to reinforce, but the BA logo doesn't do anything but tell you the brewery is independent.

I'll also add, I hadn't really intended this topic to be a "for or against" the BA's logo but a bout the ridiculous-winey-ass-cry-baby video I posted.

Seriously, if you haven't watched it, you should.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: ethinson on July 08, 2017, 05:34:22 PM

The fight between craft and non-craft is nonsensical and hypocritical and based on emontions and hurts craft more than it helps craft. Non craft drinkers are portrayed as dumb oafish neanderthals while craft drinkers are portrayed as elitist snobby hipsters.  Yes, those are both the far extremes but that's what's getting painted in these videos and super bowl commercials and we're all getting caught in those same brushstrokes.

Just my .02$.

I don't totally disagree with you here but like Narvin I don't see this to have anything to do with logo. I will say that, in Huntsville, AL, I see a wide array of people from all walks of life in my tap room. From hipsters, to country folk to corporate professionals and families. Craft beer is reaching people in all walks of life, the "bearded-tattoo-hipster" thing is something InBev is trying to reinforce, but the BA logo doesn't do anything but tell you the brewery is independent.

I'll also add, I hadn't really intended this topic to be a "for or against" the BA's logo but a bout the ridiculous-winey-ass-cry-baby video I posted.

Seriously, if you haven't watched it, you should.

I did watch it and I totally agree that it is ridiculous. 

I should take credit as well for derailing the topic a little... the pros/cons of the logo and the BA definition of craft vs noncraft are two separate topics and I have good and bad thoughts about both of those. 

How they are linked in my head is in essence the BA List of Craft Breweries is who will be eligible to choose to use the logo.  They are different things, but they are linked. 
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Big Monk on July 08, 2017, 06:32:58 PM
This is certainly the best thing I have seen.  It matters to me, I can't wait to see that seal on the bottles I do purchase.  I am a part of the 81%

Yes. 81% of the people that took the survey.


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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: Phil_M on July 09, 2017, 02:14:23 AM
FWIW, I saw somewhere that Yuengling will be using the new BA logo on their beers.

My only concern with the logo is that it'll further wedge the idea that all "macro" beer is evil. Guinness is working with craft breweries, even collaborating on brews. Heineken doesn't seem to be doing anything "evil" either. Sapporo is another good brand that makes quality beer without having to resort to underhanded business practices. This is a small concern though, and it's better to stick it to those who aren't playing fair.
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on July 09, 2017, 02:08:55 PM


I should take credit as well for derailing the topic a little... the pros/cons of the logo and the BA definition of craft vs noncraft are two separate topics and I have good and bad thoughts about both of those. 


It doesn't bother me that it got sidetracked! I think it has been interesting to see other's thoughts on the topic, even if they're wrong! ;)
Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: BrewBama on August 02, 2017, 11:03:36 PM
Saw this on the door Kieth. Good on ya.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170802/1fdbe386577264e2c5948d8650181536.jpg)


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Title: Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
Post by: majorvices on August 08, 2017, 10:43:29 PM
Saw this on the door Kieth. Good on ya.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170802/1fdbe386577264e2c5948d8650181536.jpg)


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Thanks Dwayne!